Sad about friends having to sell horses

[slc2]

It's a really sad shame in this economy that many people are having to sell their horses. Just found out about a friend who is doing so. What a shame. I suppose it's good that some people will wind up with some nice horses, but it really is sad. Anyone on either side care to comment.

[JRG]

It is happening here too. I have known a few horses that have come around that the previous owners were literally unloading.

I have a friend that is in the process of trying to find options for her show horse that is a great horse that anyone wanted to to chase points she could get you there.

It is tough. It is going to get worse again...notice gas going up. Too soon, people need more time to get out of the debt.

[HollysHobbies]

I just got my property tax bill for my car, tow vehicle (with 200000 miles on it), trailer, and farmette...over $1000...that's 1/2 a month's salary for me. Sigh. I'm not going to be able to make my car payment next month...glad I'm a payment or two ahead on that...

I told my horsies last nite not to worry though...they're not going anywhere.

Sorry for your friend SLC.

[Pony Fixer]

I'm on the other end. I just got the nicest horse I have ever had, or sat on even. He is domestically bred--REALLY really good bloodlines, with 3 great gaits (Cesar Parra just said his gaits were 9/8/8 last week at my clinic with him). He was VERY inexpensively priced for what he is, probably half his value. The person I got him from was not destitute, but found herself with more horses than $ I think.

I have been lucky to always be "loosely" looking when good deals came my way. By not ever actively shopping, just saying--"in the next year or so I'd like to get..." I've been able to get some deals. My last horse, shown to 3rd level when I got him, was reasonably priced because the daughter was off to college.

I feel badly for those who are desperate and have to sell. That's not a good place to be--in my case there was urgency with the sellers, but not because of impending poverty, thank goodness.

[PenelopesGrl]

I'm so sorry that people are having to give up horses. It's just awful.

It is amazing, though, to be starting to look for a dressage prospect right now, as I am. While I have embarrassingly little to spend (partly, though, because I want to conserve lots of savings for inevitable emergencies, always-endless expenses and in case my own financial situation shifts), it's a market where the fact that I'll be offering a loving, forever home with great training and care really means a lot to people. So many generous people are less focused on a certain purchase price and more on placing their horses with good homes.

I'm in grad school and in my mid-twenties. I've owned and paid for my retired mare for 14 years now. I've read a couple of times about the twenties being a 'lost decade' in terms of horse ownership for lots of ammy women broke and in school, or overworked in a first job. Not sure how true that is, but I wonder if more of us are ending up with horses in this horrible economy now that ownership takes a bit less overhead?

[GreekDressageQueen]

The truth is there are always people out there willing to offer you discounted board or a cheaper rate if you are willing to work off your horses' expenses and help around the farm. House/farm sitting is also a good way to work off your board. Clipping, pulling manes, cleaning tack, there are MANY things people can do to earn a few bucks here and there around the farm. I have always been in such arrangements in order to afford my two horses throughout college, grad school, etc. I never had to sell them off - even in a bad economy - because I was willing to give up the fancy boarding barns, indoor arenas, lessons with BNTs, and having to buy the "newest" breech or whatever. Not saying that there aren't hard working people out there that still fall on hard times, but so many people could still manage to keep their horses if they REALLY wanted to. It might mean waking up a few hours early to go muck a few stalls before work or taking feeding shifts on the weekends, but it's worth it to me to keep my best friends.

And if anyone hears of a nice dressage horse for sale - send me a PM! :D

[Kate66]

The economy is sad on many fronts. I agree with GDQ, I think there are probably opportunities out there to keep horses if you can make them work. Obviously for some people, with kids, a long commute etc, they probably can't commit to working more hours at a barn to keep their horses, but I know that I would consider boarding someone's horse on my farm in return for some help around the place.

[BuddyRoo]

I am sad about that too....just rehomed one of mine yesterday. Good news is that she went to a great gal and will be well cared for and get some great training.

My bad luck is someone else's chance to finally own a horse. It all works out.

[mustangtrailrider]

GDQ, IF someone REALLY wanted to keep their horses???? I want to keep my horses, but we just rehomed 2 of our dearly loved horses. Why? With winter coming and needing to buy hay (for the year), we realized that we would be better off with 2 less horses. Yes, we could have afforded it, but the stress levels going higher and higher and time running out, we decided it would be best for all involved. My husband is not riding at the moment due to physical problems. I don't know when he will ride again. We returned him to rescue. We felt it was best. Our baby, we returned to the breeder.

Not everyone that has to give up horses can or should find other ways of keeping them.

It is a catch 22 situation with a lot of people. They want to, but they know that they can't. Sometimes it is admitting that you are no longer able to do so. Flame me if you want. Everyone must do the best that they can. It is different for everyone.

For us, it is about providing quality time and training for all animals. Yes, a horse can be happy in a field. If that horse is going to be a solid citizen, it needs time and training. With time and money no longer available, it is best for us and our animals to find them another situation that does have the time. It wasn't easy. I agonized and stressed for a long time. A burden has lifted and now I can breathe easy knowing my horses are getting what they need.

Flame suit on......flame away!

[snkstacres]

MTR haha no flame suits necessary, you did what you had to do. Quality of life for all involved is essential.

It is a sad situation yes, but.....................I admire the people who actually get out and actively participate in looking for new homes for there horses. Daily I keep dealing with the ones who only want to keep the rideable ones and have me find homes for the old ones or pasture ornaments. And, I deal with the ones who lose the farm and leave the horses behind. You gotta love those ones the most.


Depending on the area one lives in will also determine if you can find a place to board your friend in exchange for work. You sure wouldnt do that in my neck of the woods.

[Bravestrom]

WHAT'S WORSE is when people hang onto them and don't care for them properly. We just got a weanling filly that is going to take probably a year to recover from her ordeal - she is a well bred oldenburg/tb and it is so sad to see how she suffered and all her other siblings suffered as a result of their owner just basically abandoning them instead of finding help.

Thankfully all of the horses have now found homes that will care for them. I am thankful that I sent a number of people to the rescue center to help.

So better to sell your horse than treat them this way.

[equest]

MTR haha no flame suits necessary, you did what you had to do. Quality of life for all involved is essential.

It is a sad situation yes, but.....................I admire the people who actually get out and actively participate in looking for new homes for there horses. Daily I keep dealing with the ones who only want to keep the rideable ones and have me find homes for the old ones or pasture ornaments. And, I deal with the ones who lose the farm and leave the horses behind. You gotta love those ones the most.


Depending on the area one lives in will also determine if you can find a place to board your friend in exchange for work. You sure wouldnt do that in my neck of the woods.

Agreed - no flame suit should be necessary to state the rational truth - horses are a luxury, and personal financial well-being trumps horse ownership during these times.

I agree with Prodomus - there are more and more instances of people hanging on to their horses, but cutting back on necessary care (shoeing, vet). That should not happen. Owners need to face reality when it is financially unrealistic to care for their animals as they should be cared for.

[evans36]

The truth is there are always people out there willing to offer you discounted board or a cheaper rate if you are willing to work off your horses' expenses and help around the farm. House/farm sitting is also a good way to work off your board. Clipping, pulling manes, cleaning tack, there are MANY things people can do to earn a few bucks here and there around the farm. I have always been in such arrangements in order to afford my two horses throughout college, grad school, etc. I never had to sell them off - even in a bad economy - because I was willing to give up the fancy boarding barns, indoor arenas, lessons with BNTs, and having to buy the "newest" breech or whatever. Not saying that there aren't hard working people out there that still fall on hard times, but so many people could still manage to keep their horses if they REALLY wanted to. It might mean waking up a few hours early to go muck a few stalls before work or taking feeding shifts on the weekends, but it's worth it to me to keep my best friends.

And if anyone hears of a nice dressage horse for sale - send me a PM! :D

As someone who just had to sell my forever horse, posts like this make me angry. It's not so much the idea of working off board, but that people assume that there is always a way. I work a 60-hour week - 3 jobs. I have student loan debt that must be paid. I was laid off and am currently underemployed - have been looking for a job that pays what my last did for six months with no success. My partner has been jobless for seven months and is in the same situation. I already helped at the farm for discounts on board.

There are only so many hours in the day. If I start taking on more work at the farm, the work I'm currently being paid to do suffers. Plus, if I work more than this, when do I see the horse that I'm breaking my back for? I couldn't ride because I couldn't find a saddle that didn't rub his high withers raw. And what if that horse hurts himself? I couldn't even afford to have him put down and disposed of.

He's going to a lady that can afford to have the Chiro out to unlock his hips, and one who can afford to feed him the high-fat feed he needs instead of the 10% sweet my (cheap) barn uses. There comes a point when affording the horse becomes more stressful than selling. It doesn't help those folks to constantly tell them that "there are ways to make it work if you'd only TRY."

Sometimes selling really is the most mature decision and the best for the horse and the owner. It happens. I promise.

[LuvMyTB]

My heart breaks for anyone who's being forced to re-home their horses. :(

I am one who's taken advantage of the economy. My mare was euthanized in June due to colic, and I did not have $$$ saved up for the purchase of a new horse. Board, vet, shoer etc. were all already planned into my budget, but a big lump sum was not.

I found my very nice gelding at a rescue, who was there because the previous owner had financial problems. I was able to get a nice, decently bred, sane and SOUND TB for a song.

I have tried to give back to the rescue (as they are also hurting due to the economy) by donating tack, feed, and time when I can. Kind of a "pay it forward" type of thing........a few more bags of feed might help them help keep a horse with it's financially strugging owner until they get back on their feet.

I will say this: one of my reasons for adopting from a rescue was that, if I did lose my job or otherwise have a financial emergency, I would ALWAYS be able to return the horse to the rescue, no questions asked. I would never have to worry about trying to sell him in a down market, etc. Kind of an insurance policy.

[arabhorse2]

Great post, evans. I completely agree with you. :yes:

GDQ sounds like she's either very young, or has plenty of money to burn. Either way, she has no clue what 'regular' people are going through in this economy.

Yes, it's sad that people are having to sell their horses, but I just got a wonderful new horse for nothing but the cost of gas to trailer him. Of course, now he's going to cost me to have him retrained because he's just two months off the track, but I knew that going in. ;)

What I find intolerable is the people who are trying to unload their unwanteds yet declare, "I EXPECT MONTHLY UPDATES, AND SHOULD BE ALLOWED UNSCHEDULED VISITS!!!"

If you want that much control over the beastie, keep it yourself.

Plus, please do not try and give away a 25-30 y/o horse with leg/back/lung issues who needs to be on constant medication. Put the poor brute down if you don't want to/can't afford the expense, instead of confusing the poor old creature by trying to pawn it off on someone else.

Trust me, I'll have more respect for you if you put the beast down, than I will if you expect someone else to take it and do what you can't or won't.

[BuddyRoo]

Evans36 ((hugs))....

Yes, it can be frustrating to hear people say things like "if you wanted it badly enough, you'd find a way"....

They're not entirely wrong. I mean, if I wanted to foreclose on my house, live out of my vehicle, and work 20 hours a day (and not see my horses), I could have kept mine.

I already THOUGHT I was doing all the right things to make the extra $$ for the horses plus get ahead and have a little time to use them. Got a roommate a year ago, have a PT job working enough hours that it would pay 100% for the board.

But...last week, my PT job didn't pay me for the 50 hours they owed me in September and it didn't look like they had any intention of doing so. And my roommate decided to move out with virtually no notice. Which left me a couple grand a month in the hole and only 10 days til everything was coming due for November.

I'm no stranger to mucking a stall. And I'm not adverse to hard work. But sometimes in grown up world, you have to look at the big picture. Horses ARE luxury items. I acquired mine while living in a much different set of circumstances. I've been limping along for a year and I just couldn't risk going all the way under.

I kept my older, less marketable mare and gave away the flashier more athletic one. It sucks. But that's life.

I hope that GDQ realizes that her words do sting a bit for those of us who are making these tough choices as responsibly as we can. If it were just a matter of mucking a few stalls in my "spare" time (lol, what in the hell is that?), I would've done it. It's not like I'm sitting around eating bon bons and wondering why the big bad world won't give me a pretty pony to play with. I've worked very hard. But sometimes, it's just not enough.

[Chief2]

When I took over my 'new' horse's care, it was because his owner was really struggling financially and had already done as much as he could possibly do to rearrange things at home to fit his reduced finances. The kids left their colleges and came home to community schools, everyone in the family took jobs at whatever they could do, and there has been belt tightening going on all the way around. It is heartbreaking to have to lose a horse you love because of reasons beyond your control, but that's what happened. The previous owner is still welcome to brush him, give him treats and enjoy being with him whenever he wants to. And he enjoys the access. In this case, while I am certainly enjoying being the horse's new owner, I don't see there is any reason to pull the plug on the previous relationship.

[devcubber]

and trying hard not to tip the canoe. I am in school full time, working 2 part time jobs, raising a teenaged son and going through a painful divorce. When it comes time to not be able to feed my child or the horses, I'm going to choose my child. I have been able thus far to make the ends meet; I keep my horses at my friends house for $100/@/month. It doesn't get cheaper than that. I do have 3 of them for sale, and my old man, whom I've had for 24 of his 25 years, will stay with me until he's buried.

I don't have health insurance (my child does) and I drive an ancient car. I don't buy clothes, I don't go out and I still don't receive any spousal support. Sometimes TRYING and REALITY are not on the same page. If they were, I imagine I'd still be married. But that is another story entirely....

I really respect people who, despite the heartache it causes, sell their horses in order to improve both lives, the horse and themselves. The stress caused by wondering if you can maintain a bare minimum quality of life for both the animal and the human is pretty intense when your financial situation hits the wall. What's that old saying my grandmother used to spout? Don't judge another until you've walked a mile in their shoes. Those of us who are financially sound (and I was there, not too long ago) can become unsound due to the economy, sudden job changes, illness or divorce....in a heartbeat. We need to support our fellow horsefriends in these times by offering a shoulder for their heartache and the knowledge that they are doing the best for their horses and themselves.

[Vivace]

I just sold my horse for $500 because it was getting to the point that I couldn't get out to the barn at all because I was either at work, at school, or at home with my daughter all the time, and that wasn't fair to her at all. $500 because she can't be registered, and she's most definitely a project horse.

[katarine]

Hard times can happen anytime. Depends on where you sit that second.

When his company hit the skids due to horrid upper level financial shenanigans he had NOTHING to do with, my brother went from a six figure lifestyle and decade+ career in that company to a NO figure lifestyle. There he was with a wife and an 8 WEEK OLD HUMAN BABY at home. You know, the two legged wholly dependent not for sale kind? Ever seen one??

GDQ can bite my a$$ about boohoo some ponies are for sale. Seriously, those lens ain't just rosy, they are smeared with dirty vaseline. Good God.

[rizzodm]

This week my husband is on a forced vacation and is to report back to work Monday to see if there is any work for him. Just thinking about having to tell my trainer that I can't take lessons or I can't afford my lease anymore makes me cry. My husband has told me to not give it up yet until it is absolutley financially necessary, but believe me I will be asking my trainer what do I need to do so I can keep riding rather than tell her I can't ride anymore because of finances.


Dawn

[Lori B]

katarine, as far as I can tell, GDQ didn't fire your brother. Anytime anyone brings up the difficulties of the current economy, someone decides that the person who brought it up isn't actually suffering that much, and brings up worse suffering, and so on. Not many people are doing better than a year or 2 ago right now, either way.

[Woodland]

When we moved here 20 years ago it was open farm fields. Houses came and people built little farmsteads. I had LOTS of friends to ride with. One by one they divorced, retired, quit riding, moved away, etc Now I have no riding buddies in my neighborhood. People have to trailer in, I trailer out, or I ride with my kids or boarders. Not the same - sadly.

I have seen a lot of good friends, good neighbors and good horses come and go for so many reasons - sadly.

[katarine]

katarine, as far as I can tell, GDQ didn't fire your brother. Anytime anyone brings up the difficulties of the current economy, someone decides that the person who brought it up isn't actually suffering that much, and brings up worse suffering, and so on. Not many people are doing better than a year or 2 ago right now, either way.

GDQ's point was one need only work harder to keep one's horses. How completely clueless does one have to be to a) know that unemployment is somewhere in the vicinity of 10% and b) sometimes life happens and horses need to be rehomed. I found her 'work harder' mentality, a little too Let Them Eat Cake.


Meant to add this: He wasn't fired. He was laid off/downsized along with ample plenty innocent others. When the drive to equal Wall St expectations kicks in, sanity flew the coop at that Fortune 500 company... All in the midst of the economic boom times. Go figure.

You don't like it, fine by me.

[BuddyRoo]

Well, it's obviously a touch and emotionally charged subject. To be fair, 3 weeks ago, if you'd told me I'd be in this position I would've said, "Well maybe...but I've put several things in place to assure that I won't be." Those several things dissolved in one day.

It happens.

But...as long as we all...no matter if it IS mucking some stalls and doing some braid or finding a good home for our critters...keep doing what we think is in the best interest of our horses, then we are doing the right thing.

[magnolia73]

I agree- and honestly- the barns I have been at already have pretty full staffing of people working off board and lessons. I think it was different when the economy was good, but last fall, everyone I rode with seemed to be taking shifts here and there.

And those barns where everyone works off board? I think they end up short on operating expenses.... and I know a few are realizing it isn't such a good deal.

So... yeah, in some places there is no work for people. I know guys who were in real estate who can. not. get. a. job. at WalMart, driving a truck... and are literally doing odd jobs for cash. These are guys who were developers with multi million dollar deals. One guy is selling phone cards. I'm not so sure mucking stalls is an easy job to find these days.

Sorry to anyone who has had to lose their horses during this. It's my greatest fear.

[slc2]

I think people need to understand that all situations are not the same.

Some people are just selling their horses to be conservative and careful - they're not desperate, they're able to put food on the table, but I especially now see people being 'pre-emptive' - they're cutting their expenses in many ways in anticipation of layoffs or loss of income, and in some cases, because they just feel insecure and worried. If you had to choose between retiring at 65 or attempting to continue working til 75, or if you had to choose between keeping your horse and sending your daughter to college...no, not everyone is always going to keep their horses. People do what they feel they need to do.

And in some cases, people are getting out of horses because their retirement accounts have lost so much money, they need to stop spending money on horses and put all that in to replenish the retirement fund every month. I know people who have lost 50-60% of their retirement funds, and they're 40 or 50, and they are very worried. Don't judge anyone for having a retirement budget, or for selling out their horses to stay financially sound and on budget.

Young folks in college or fresh out of school may not get much sense of this issue, but people do often sell horses when they AREN'T in desperate straits, and that may be a very financially responsible thing to do. Age often involves income reduction and increased health care expenses...keeping on track to a secure old age is good.

Then there are folks who really are desperate and don't know how they'll pay their bills as their income is disappearing or dropping. They do what they have to do.

I feel bad for anyone who finds they have to sell their horses, regardless of what brings them to that point. I just saw the one horse, an eventer, he is just so sweet. I really hope he goes to someone good.

[Flash44]

I sold my show horse and only own one easy keeping pony at this point. I am leasing a horse for my personal use. If things get bad for me, I am well able to return the leased horse and tighten the belt if I need to. The economy is ABSOLUTELY going to get worse because the commercial real estate bubble has not yet burst. And many banks rewrote some of their liabilities so their books look better than they actually are. In fact, there are many many many bankers and businessmen who need to go back to preschool and reread The Three Little Pigs. The big bad wolf is not going away any time soon.

[TheJenners]

Some people entered the recession (is that what this is called?) already on shaky ground. Some didn't. Those who didn't are feeling the pinch but might not be at the point yet where they are selling off things. I was able to buy a house this year, AFTER the election, and now it's a little tight for the holidays but I got a house for about $50k-$75k less than what's worth. I have a job that has more security than most, because frankly a poor economy = more crime.

I'll never hold it against any one who is rehoming/selling in this economy. Someone I know just old me she bought a pony at a GAS STATION for $300, a real cute 6 yo bay pinto about 13.3 (darnit), because the lady couldn't afford to feed the pony. She sold before the pony starting suffering and while she still had winter fat on.


My husband is not riding at the moment due to physical problems. I don't know when he will ride again. We returned him to rescue.

Am I the only one who read this the way I did and laughed???

[LuvMyTB]

The truth is there are always people out there willing to offer you discounted board or a cheaper rate if you are willing to work off your horses' expenses and help around the farm.


Flat-out not true. When I moved into my current barn, I asked if I could clean my own stall to save $$$--and was told no. They already have boarders working for cash or board, and they couldn't take on any more without losing money.

My last barn was the same way. One summer I was able to fill about 50 water buckets 2x/week for a $30 reduction in board. That was all they could offer me.

Fortunately I am not in a desperate situation, but there are plenty of people AND barns who are. The struggling barns need money, not help, which makes the struggling people SOL.

[pony4me]

It seems like a lot of people are still trying to place nice horses. However it's difficult for those who have a horse, and those who need a horse to match up. I tried placing a "horse wanted" ad on the Giveaways forum, for a friend of mine, but the ad never got there. We were asking for a horse that probably had more value than the usual giveaway, but in light of the current economic situation, might be a giveaway if the owner was looking for the perfect home. I am sorry for anyone who has to sell or rehome a beloved horse, and wish them the best luck.

[FlashGordon]

I know many people who have nice horses, that are virtually giving them away. Lots of friends who will probably taking a hiatus for awhile. Granted most of my friends are 20 and 30 somethings just getting rolling in life, career, and family but I'm seeing the older generation here in town getting hit hard, too.

A lot of barns in the area are half full and I know quite a few that have had at least one horse (if not more) abandoned.

Also I'm seeing the opposite when it comes to boarding situations... BOs are less willing to let people work off board, etc. and really just want to get paid each month, which is fair enough.

We definitely tend to be conservative spenders, but with some life changes, I've become acutely aware in the last month that we need to take a look at things and see where we can get a bit more organized.

[Trixie]

Not saying that there aren't hard working people out there that still fall on hard times, but so many people could still manage to keep their horses if they REALLY wanted to. It might mean waking up a few hours early to go muck a few stalls before work or taking feeding shifts on the weekends, but it's worth it to me to keep my best friends.

That's a bit of a naive worldview, isn't it?

Horses are such a luxury. They're a luxury that we love and adore and are friends with, but frankly, feeding the family MUST come first.

In the previous economy, when things were "better" - people quite frankly were living far out of their means. Things were good for so long that not everyone had enough in savings, too much credit card debt, bought houses that cost too much. Obviously, they lost out first. But when that crashed, it took down retirement savings and jobs of many people who had lived within their means and done everything right.

And jobs aren't getting any easier to find, and they're sure as heck not paying more. Even those with previously very secure careers are being laid off. There are no guarantees.

It may be very easy for you to tell people to "just get up a little bit earlier" but I'm afraid that you're missing a few things and not seeing the picture for what it is. It doesn't help ANYONE, the horses especially, if people lose their homes trying to pay their board bill, or if they wind up in the hospital from exhaustion and stress.

Saying "if they REALLY wanted to" like that is both condescending and hugely insulting.

[Rikerkv6]

The truth is there are always people out there willing to offer you discounted board or a cheaper rate if you are willing to work off your horses' expenses and help around the farm. House/farm sitting is also a good way to work off your board. Clipping, pulling manes, cleaning tack, there are MANY things people can do to earn a few bucks here and there around the farm. I have always been in such arrangements in order to afford my two horses throughout college, grad school, etc. I never had to sell them off - even in a bad economy - because I was willing to give up the fancy boarding barns, indoor arenas, lessons with BNTs, and having to buy the "newest" breech or whatever. Not saying that there aren't hard working people out there that still fall on hard times, but so many people could still manage to keep their horses if they REALLY wanted to. It might mean waking up a few hours early to go muck a few stalls before work or taking feeding shifts on the weekends, but it's worth it to me to keep my best friends.


Agreed! I took back my older horse so he could retire this year. While I was comfortably supporting one horse, two was tight. I was fortunate enough to be able to work off some board. I don't have a fancy barn or a big indoor. But I do have two happy healthy horses and I sleep soundly at night knowing my old guy who gave me so much is safe. Yea, it means 7 day work weeks and 15 hr days. For now, it's a sacrifice I am willing to bear until things improve.

[mvp]

The woman-- and clear matriarch of my family-- is 94 (95?) and was *there* for the first Great Depression.

She and I don't see eye-to-eye on the necessity of horses in my life (of course!). But I'm now grateful for the brass-tacks, conservative financial outlook the woman has pounded into all younger members of our family.

In the pre-plastic era, people went from unemployed to starving way faster than they do now. She would therefore insist that this kind of poverty is preventable for us and our dependents with prudence, creativity, hard work and belt tightening.

For me, that means that I have always paid rent first, board second and all other bills in order of importance after that. I'd also live in my car (or really, my very nice aluminum horse trailer) before I let my horse go hungry. With a horse I had to keep for his sake, I'd also find a dirt cheap pasture for him and accept that if need be. I'd certainly sell a horse I thought could find a better deal with a different owner and not feel bad about that.

It's just honesty and triage, people.