VHSA Assoc. Idea

[french]

I've been to some shows where entries in Open/Working and Pony hunter were very light. Recently I saw a pony division that had one competitive pony and 2 "filler" ponies in it. One of the filllers had to trot the course and the other could not do a lead change. The competitive pony won even though it did not go well that day.

How would it work to allow Open/Working to be combined with Pony Hunters when there aren't at least 3 of each (i.e. 3 ponies and 3 horses)? They already allow Green ponies and Green horses to show in the same division.

I'd love to hear some feedback on this idea. There is no way I can get to the Homestead to bring it up at the meeting.

[BelladonnaLily]

Working Hunter allows pros. I understand your idea but I'd hate for my 11yo to have to compete against a pro. Plus, most of the shows I attend run Pony Hunter in the am with the other pony divisions, Working last division after Green and Low and other divisions that allow pros and ammys both. Scheduling would be tricky.

Most of the shows I go to fill pony okay...its green pony that has a tough time.

[sycee]

I agree that it would be hard to put the two divisions together, mostly because of the scheduling of most shows. I can't imagine a pony kid wanting to do their division in the morning having to hang around all day just to hack at the end of the Working division.
edited* not to mention the pita to the judge to keep a score card from one or two ponies in the am all the way to the working division.

Also, as someone that typically shows in the Working division (when I can show), I know that most of us know where the division will fill and tend to bring enough to ensure the division fills with or without help from others. The working division has sometimes had a problem filling at some associate shows and some shows always have at least 6-8 in it. If you are worried about filling the division, my best suggestion is to find a couple friends that will roadtrip with you or come up to the Charlottesville/Keswick area where the Workings tend to fill regularly.

[Va2Ga]

French what area of va are you in? It seems the same divisons in my area are hard to fill too. But if you go 45 min a different direction they fill. I think in my area we have to many shows the same weekend and the qulity has gone way down hill. I have been away from Va for about 10 years and when i returned last yeat things are not how i remembered them.

[skrgirl]

Most of the time you can call the day before and check on pre entries. VHSA-A show heights can be pretty flexible too. Working can be run at 2'6", so pretty much anyone on a horse can fill it.

When I was getting points for working a few years ago, I always hauled a second along with me just in case I needed to fill the division.

[french]

Managers usually know when a division might be tough to fill. Where numbers might be light, the divisions would have to be scheduled close enough together that Pony hunter and Working could be run as one combined division if necessary. I'm not suggesting that the 2 divisions should always be combined or that it is ideal to combine them. I just think it would be better than having to haul a filler entry (or 2) or drag one (or 2) out of the barn. I realize that many exhibitors would rather show in a division against non-competitive fillers just to get the precious points. That offends me. It's not what the associate program was supposed to be. In my area working usually fills since they have to jump only 2'6" but I'm trying to come up with a way to help the pony hunters.

As far as children competing against professionals, while it is not ideal, it already happens when green horses and ponies are combined. I feel it's better to compete against something eligible and competitive than a non-competitive filler. At a recent show after one green pony was eliminated in both over fences classes a filler horse was stuck in. The horse cantered the course but didn't pick up a canter in the hack. Maybe it wasn't supposed to beat the others. Just sayin'.

The quantity of shows has increased but I agree that in many cases, the quality has gone down in recent years. I go to shows from Richmond to Fredericksburg to Va Beach.

[skrgirl]

Managers usually know when a division might be tough to fill. Where numbers might be light, the divisions would have to be scheduled close enough together that Pony hunter and Working could be run as one combined division if necessary. I'm not suggesting that the 2 divisions should always be combined or that it is ideal to combine them. I just think it would be better than having to haul a filler entry (or 2) or drag one (or 2) out of the barn. I realize that many exhibitors would rather show in a division against non-competitive fillers just to get the precious points. That offends me. It's not what the associate program was supposed to be. In my area working usually fills since they have to jump only 2'6" but I'm trying to come up with a way to help the pony hunters.

As far as children competing against professionals, while it is not ideal, it already happens when green horses and ponies are combined. I feel it's better to compete against something eligible and competitive than a non-competitive filler. At a recent show after one green pony was eliminated in both over fences classes a filler horse was stuck in. The horse cantered the course but didn't pick up a canter in the hack. Maybe it wasn't supposed to beat the others. Just sayin'.

The quantity of shows has increased but I agree that in many cases, the quality has gone down in recent years. I go to shows from Richmond to Fredericksburg to Va Beach.

This was at Hazewild, all three were mine. Large Pony didnt complete the two classes because the show was held in the outdoor ring and it had rained terribly and the pony fell completely down in the corners, in both courses. He is beat up pretty bad. Filler horse had NOT schooled and trotted some of the course and cantered some of the course. No way were we chancing 16.2h cantering around a ring that a smaller much more coordinated pony went down in. Plus the horse is having some lead issues to the right that need to be worked out, and it did not need to be done on slick footing. It was not done so that the pony could win. Trust me.

[Trixie]

As someone who regularly competes in the working division, I'd like to see more shows do what Fox Chase did this year and offer a 3'6" option. Unfortunately, though, a lot of people showing at the associate shows don't seem to want to go at 3'6".

However, as someone who doesn't own a horse and doesn't have a large checkbook, I can't show 3'6" at bigger shows because there's nowhere for me to do it. I've done 3' with my horse a thousand times and would love to move him up, but there's nowhere to go but jumpers.

I don't see any reason to combine it with the pony hunters. It's not a pony division, and at most of the shows I've been to the ponies don't have any problem filling at all.

It's also sad to me that we're trying to continually find ways to add in another 2'6" option as opposed to more folks stepping it up to do 3' and above. There's already a children's division and an adult division at 2'6", usually some kind of low hunter, and a zillion other options. I think a better question would be, how can we encourage people to move up?

[skrgirl]

Trixie- I had the same problem with jump height in the working. There was a lovely show in my area once a year that held a regular working hunter division at 3'6" with a handy hunter course. The division usually had at least 8 horses in it. They stopped holding that show many years ago though. We always tell people that come to our show to do working that we will offer a 3'3" and 3'6" option if the rider wants.

[Trixie]

Sk8r, where are you located?

Lockemeadows also offered to pop the jumps to 3'6" for us if we wanted but we're rarely able to justify gas to get that far if someone practically in our backyard is already raising jumps.

I was also really happy to see that Fox Chase offered an outside course option this year. Unfortunately, I was the only one that wanted to do it, so it never ran. I'd absolutely LOVE to see more of that and yes, would be more inclined to travel for that if a show can guarantee that it will run. Or, if a bunch of us on here agreed to go and do it so we know it will fill.

[skrgirl]

Were in Charlottesville, probably a hike for you.

[dancingequestrian85]

I agree with Va2Ga. There are so many shows on any given weekend that it seems to be hard to get divisions filled. The overall quality of shows seems to have gone down some too. Over the past few years, where I live, the green ponies seem to be harder than the pony hunters but it does seem to vary depending on the area. Maybe instead of combining the working hunters and the ponies, the VHSA should try to find a way to cut back on the number of shows on any given weekend. This might help cut down on the crazy point chasing where people show at 3 shows on any given weekend (not that I haven't done that before though ;)).

I like the idea of offering 3'6 at shows. It also scares me a little though. There are many people out there that could easily do 3'6 at associate shows but there are also a lot of people who shouldn't but will anyway.

Just my 2 cents :) and good luck to everyone at finals this year. It will be the first time in 8 years that I will not be there.

[Trixie]

I like the idea of offering 3'6 at shows. It also scares me a little though. There are many people out there that could easily do 3'6 at associate shows but there are also a lot of people who shouldn't but will anyway.

Really though, that could be said of anyone competing anywhere. As it stands now, though, people are hardly entering. But I just don't see how leaving the Working Hunters as another 2'6" class, and certainly combining it with pony hunters, is going to help us step up the quality at associate shows. Now's a great time to be doing that, also, because a lot of people cannot afford to show at rated shows the way they were in previous years, but still want quality venues to compete their horses at.

(nothing against the ponies, FWIW - I fully expect them to beat me. It just seems as though they're two totally separate entities)

Anyone want to come do the outside course at Fox Chase with me if they offer it this year?

[french]

I don't see any reason to combine it with the pony hunters. It's not a pony division, and at most of the shows I've been to the ponies don't have any problem filling at all.

I certainly don't think pony hunters and working should be combined generally. I'd just like to see it as an option when there aren't enough pony or working entries. At most of the shows I go to, ponies are already allowed to show in the Open/working division-- they just don't get any points.

I also feel that there are often too many shows too close together on the same day. And I feel that some people like it that way. Some of them seem to prefer showing where divisions just barely fill rather than showing where the competition is better. I don't suppose a milage rule for associate shows would go over too well...

[chunky munky]

The VHSA makes too much money from the Associate shows to ever want to change things or impose any mileage rule. Perhaps the horse show managers need to organize themselves to try not to step on each other. It would be better for everybody. Don't count on any regulation from the organization. It is not in their best interest. Unfortunately their ignorance of the problem is not in memberships best interest.
I am in agreement that quality has decreased because if there are not enough entries to fill a show to make it successful it is difficult to want to put any money into the show. Paint the jumps or get plants? I don't think so. Use Jonie Baloney down the block who won at the 4H shows 20 years ago as our judge who will do it for $100 for the experience, you betcha.
Exhibitors keep championiong the shows with the lowest entry fees but then come to realize that like in most things in life you get what you pay for.
Many have no food concession, no vet on call, no emt. Personally I would rather pay a little more for those ammenities.
Concerning the outside course...A few years ago Tom Finch who runs very nice associate shows had divisions that went once in the ring and then on the outside course. Nobody would do it. It was a very nice course and everybody gave it a lot of lip service and said how wonderful it was, but then wouldn't compete on it because they or their horses were incapable, evidently. So good luck with that, I hope you can get some interest for it.

[Trixie]

I'll also pay a little more for those amenities.

The good thing about having a lot of associate shows is that there's a lot of opportunity to vote with your feet. Show pins a horse that was disqualified under the rules (failed to complete the course)? Didn't go back. Show manager hauled off small child by the EAR screaming about come to jesus meetings after her jumper courses were so badly designed that she forgot to include which way you were going? Didn't go back. Rock solid footing and lousy jumps set wrong? Nope.

Shows with good jumps, good footing, qualified judging, and a nice atmosphere? You bet! Show management that obviously listens to their competitors? Wonderful. You can pick and choose. And most of the good ones ARE filling.

This is Virginia. There are plenty of qualified people out there to run a horse show.

[LockeMeadows]

We moved our schedule around completely this year - started with the Workings/A-A/Green Horse, then did the ponies, followed by the beginner classes. The shows were the largest we've ever had and all the divisions filled. The adults loved it because they could show and get back on the road. The kids loved it because they could sleep in a little. It worked out for everyone. Yes, our 3' divisions filled at every show and I have no problems putting the fences up to 3'6" if people request. Heck, several of my riders would love to jump around higher, but not many shows offer that height. Our pony divisions usually had 6-10 ponies at any given show; some shows having as many as 16.

What I've found if you want your classes to fill, you need to listen to what people want. We added sand and our footing is A+ (multiple people have said the best in the area). Our jumps are real height with real strides and lots of fill. We hired an excellent food vender with very reasonable prices. Our staff is some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. We offer pre-entry discounts and paybacks. Our class list was moved around per request. Needless to say, our shows about doubled in size this year, even with the poor economy. If a show is having a problem filling its classes, it needs to listen to its entries. Instead of putting the ponies with the horses, the show needs to fix its problems so other people will come!