Pick your head UP

[kellyb]

I have a horse who has the opposite problem of any bit-averter I've had.

He is an 11 y/o paint/QH and has a history of awful, god knows what kind of training. I know that he's been bitted back (where they run the reins between the legs to the girth and lunge to death). He's a big fan of getting really behind the bit when he is agitated about something, or you ask for something he doesn't understand.

He is a difficult ride at the canter. First off he wants to go reaaaal fast. The yahoo who had him before me would just gallop wantonly...so now anytime we canter more than a lap or to, he is in 'go' mode.

I believe the basics are covered. He's seen the vet, been adjusted by the chiro, the saddle fits, and he just got his teeth done 3 weeks ago. I feel like what I am mainly fighting with is years of questionable training.

I have played around with several bits to see what works for him. The problem is exacerbated by any kind of curb action. I wanted to stay with just a smooth regular D ring snaffle, but he is just so strong it wears me out. I have had the best luck so far in a D ring segunda (using it as gently as possible). A waterford mouthpiece does not make a difference to him.

Let's say we are cantering and he is in his usual 'go' mode. I try to stay quiet, sit deep, and half halt. I have tried both short half halts and longer, sustained half halts. Both work....for a couple strides. I basically have to remind him the entire time.

I have tried working excessively on transitions. This only seems to irritate him. He already has really nice up & down transitions.

I have tried circling him when he gets too fast...and then let him back out when he slows. That is also very short-lived.

I have tried staying out of his way, completely out of his face. He will just infinitely increase his speed & stride until we are at Mach 3.

The fight we have every day is that he tires of me asking him to slow down, and his way of dealing with that is putting his head really low, or getting behind the vertical, or on his really bad days, he just puts his nose to his chest and it's nearly impossible to get him back.

If I'm not using the segunda he will lean REALLY hard on my hands. I know a leaner can't lean if they have nothing to lean against (your hands) but then I am back to asking him to slow down every other stride.

When he does his low-head antics I just take the advice of my friend and lift one hand up somewhat sharply about 6 inches. It does bring him back up...momentarily. Then he will go right back down again. He thinks he is doing the right thing!! With bad QH training (not all but some) when they pick their hands up, they want the head DOWN. He was taught that any time he feels any kind of contact, he needs to put his head back down.

I hate this. I love my horse, I desperately want to fix him but I am running out of ideas. This is month six with me. While we have made progress in other areas, this is one thing I cannot seem to fix with him.

Please...if you have any suggestions or have dealt specifically with this before... I'm all ears. :(

[sheltona01]

This may or may not help you but I have a similar type situation with a mare I rode invloving bad previous training. She was a just a trail horse, but she knew one speed and that was fast from her previous owner. He would literally get on her, maybe once a month, and run her flat out around the arena for 20 minutes and then get off of her. No warm up or cool down, turns or stopping. He would rarely take her out of the arena because she would always come back without him. The people at the barn had actually stopped handling her because of her behavior. She just did not have any manners at all. I myself am not a trainer but have been riding for years.

I basically went back to the beginning. The first time I rode her we walked and stopped. The first time I tried to get her to stop it took me most of the length of the arena to stop from a walk. She just did not understand whoa or really what turning was without a barrier. I only did walk and stop for at least two weeks until she mastered it. After that we only walk and trotted for two month. Again, I had to teach her how to stop from a trot. She had no clue.

I basically had to re-teach her everything. It takes a lot of patience, but only reward when they do the right behavior, ignores the rests unless it is dangerous. If you are consistent about it, they will learn. Take it very slowly. They will relapse to their old training. That is fine, just gently correct them. Never introduce something new until they have mastered what you have taught them. Break it down into baby steps. It does get easier as time progresses. If they master it at a walk and a trot, it is a lot easier to get them to understand at a canter. Go back to the beginning and make sure you are always correcting the behavior even during warming up and cooling down. I know I will correct something if I am concentrating on it, but forget about it when doing something else.

I am also interested in hearing what other people say. As I said, I am not a trainer; this is just what worked for me. With in 6 months, she has mastered WTC and was going over small jumps. Everyone loved her and wanted to ride her.

[Dixon]

Six months is not very long to undue what may have been YEARS of unfortunate training. So be patient with him and yourself.

First, take the poor horse out of the segunda bit. The high port and un-jointed mouthpiece place pressure on both the bars of his mouth and possibly the roof of his mouth, so it's no wonder why he's evading the bit. He was probably trained in a curb with a high port, which also worked the bars and roof of his mouth, and simply added some chin/poll leverage. So your bit reminds him of the bit his bad rider used. Put him in a plain, fat, gentle snaffle, like an eggbutt or dee or loose ring. That will work the CORNERS of his mouth, which will encourage him to take contact instead of curling into a defensive ball.

I do not understand why you justified your use of a segunda by saying he is "strong." A horse can't pull when curled up with his nose down on his chest. He may be going faster than you'd like, but fast does not equal strong. Often it signals that the horse is nervous about something, and that something could be bit pressure. You already learned that you won't slow him down by pulling on the reins. You'll slow him down by circling, and getting him comfortable with the fact that you're not chasing him around. (See next paragraph). This horse does NOT need a strong bit. He needs an ultra-gentle bit, and your assurance that it's ok to maintain contact.

Your post acknowledged that certain actions on your part provide temporary fixes to his tendency to canter too fast. That means your actions are working, but nothing you do will suddenly, permanently fix the problem. Understanding that, keep up with the circling to keep his pace under control. If you can get him to canter at a desirable pace on a circle, then live on circles for a while -- months even. Get his mind and body accustomed to that lower rate of speed. Then, gradually broaden your circle, and if he speeds up, then spiral back in. Don't plan on cantering in a straight line anytime soon.

[GoForAGallop]

I think that, first off, you need to stop drilling and fighting with him in the ring. Is there anyway that you can take him out on JUST TRAILS for even a month or two? Let him meander around out there on a loose rein, and streeettccch out, and look around, and just enjoy life? He sounds like he is just retreating more and more into himself (not to anthropomorphize, much!) and is not enjoying work, or seeing any reason to enjoy it, for that matter.

Once you get him "unstuck" from that false QH frame, life will be so much better! I have a QH who came to me in a pretty similar condition--he wasn't pleasure broke, like yours, but he was taught that his head needed to be DOWN. It took a couple months of trails and just enjoying life before he kept his head up.


Also, and again from experience, don't don't don't let him pull on you. I KNOW it's hard, and I KNOW he's whipping around the ring. But getting in a fight with him isn't going to help anything. Instead, make him do circles and focus and put that energy to some good use. Yes, he hates it, but THAT"S THE POINT. He's being forced to work because he's being naughty! If it means that you have to do circles the entire ride, with just a few straight stretches when he's being good, then so be it. He'll learn, soon enough. (And yes, I know that this goes completely against what I said above about drilling. But I think that even when his head comes up, he'll still have the speed issue. So get his head up through casual trails, and then work on the speed. Or work on the speed issues out on the trail, whatever.)

And always remember, with the quick ones--you're a good rider! You can post a trot, even a fast one! So don't let him make you lose your cool with his speed. Just keep relaxing, and asking him to sloooowwww.

[GoForAGallop]

Understanding that, keep up with the circling to keep his pace under control. If you can get him to canter at a desirable pace on a circle, then live on circles for a while -- months even. Get his mind and body accustomed to that lower rate of speed. Then, gradually broaden your circle, and if he speeds up, then spiral back in. Don't plan on cantering in a straight line anytime soon.


Just wanted to "ditto" this. I spent MONTHS (literally. believe me.) just doing circles with my gelding. Eventually that circle grew until it was the entire ring. :) But we still have to go back to circles every once and a while, just to remind him of his manners and that he does not, in fact, have to speed around at mach 10.

[Go Fish]

When he does his low-head antics I just take the advice of my friend and lift one hand up somewhat sharply about 6 inches. It does bring him back up...momentarily. Then he will go right back down again. He thinks he is doing the right thing!! With bad QH training (not all but some) when they pick their hands up, they want the head DOWN. He was taught that any time he feels any kind of contact, he needs to put his head back down.

Believe it or not, and I know this is counterintuitive, but depending on your hands without adding leg will cause some of the problems you are experiencing, especially if he gets behind the bit. Check out some threads on this subject. Some posters have some good advice on how to ride this through.

You might try a bit that works off the tongue or corners of the mouth. Have you checked his palate? And while I don't necessarily agree with it, some posters have had good luck with a hackamore for this problem.

[Go Fish]

Another idea...has this horse, in his previous life, been trained with a spur stop?

[kellyb]

Believe it or not, and I know this is counterintuitive, but depending on your hands without adding leg will cause some of the problems you are experiencing, especially if he gets behind the bit. Check out some threads on this subject. Some posters have some good advice on how to ride this through.

You might try a bit that works off the tongue or corners of the mouth. Have you checked his palate? And while I don't necessarily agree with it, some posters have had good luck with a hackamore for this problem.

Thank you. I do keep my leg on him. That was also a huge problem when I first got him, he was very uncomfortable with any kind of leg contact. That is one thing we have accomplished, he accepts it now and will move off of it nicely at any gait. I am conscious to not use my hands without my leg.

Re: the bit. I know there is a lot of hate for the segunda...but I have tried the gentler bits and did not get anything but a fight. I know a segunda is harsh but it is the only thing I can ride him in lightly and get a response. I do not abuse the bit and really only take contact when I need it.

I currently rotate between the segunda and the regular smooth d ring. The only thing I have not tried yet is a mullen mouth (or a hackamore). When I ride in the smooth d ring I feel like I almost have no control unless circling. It looks/feels awful, I am pulling back so hard to rate him. I am not the person to go right to the harshest bit I can find to patch a problem. My thinking was that it would be better to be able to use my hands lightly to get a reaction (segunda) versus really fighting him (smooth mouthpiece) because using the latter option all the time would probably only make his mouth harder.

Mind you, I did spend 4 months in regular snaffles before even introducing the segunda.

Anyway, I appreciate the advice, please keep it coming.

And, Goforagallop....I WISH we had accessible trails at my barn. I'd be on them all the time. Honestly at this point I am almost considering boarding him at my old farm for a month just so we can take a breather and work in the fields/hills/etc.

[kellyb]

Another idea...has this horse, in his previous life, been trained with a spur stop?

Yes, which makes it even worse. :(

Don't you wish horses were like etch-a-sketches...you could just erase their previous training with a little side to side swish...

[Go Fish]

Yes, which makes it even worse. :(

Don't you wish horses were like etch-a-sketches...you could just erase their previous training with a little side to side swish...

Whooo boy - this makes your job even more difficult. Good luck!

[Czar]

I knew 2 horses that were like what you are describing.

The first was a very fancy large QH type pony - the minute you went in a ring and attempted to "do" something; she reacted much like your guy. We ended up using a hackamore and she went best in that but you still had to be completely still and controlled and keep her the same with your body - if you had to go to your hands; it could get ugly.

The second was a PaintX as well - she was a jumper and a VERY educated rider could get her around the ring but I strongly suspect she had a screw loose PLUS poor training. She went exactly like your guy but would start to loose it a bit if you tried to make her go like a normal horse. Her rider stayed off her back; stayed out of the ring as much as possible and even rode without a saddle which seemed to signal to the horse that she wasn't really "working".

I hate to say it but this horse may never be productive for what you want him for. The large pony I referred to would hack anywhere on the buckle...she just wasn't going to be a hunter pony. Some horses get screwed up so badly that all they will ever be are pasture puffs. :no:

[eclipse]

I too am retraining little paint that loves to go with her head between her legs!! My trainer & I are working on lot's & lot's of going back to basics with lots of circles, transitions, lots of leg TO hand. We have also put my mare in a snaffle type gag & it's helped a lot. A properly used gag, works like a snaffle and only comes into play when they try to get their head too low, (that's why you should use it with two reins). My mare is learning that keeping her head up is not a bad thing & she will not get punished because she's raising her head above wither height (as I suspect has happened to her previously). It's going to take time, but she is showing a lot of promise in the jumper and hunter rings so I'm willing to put the time & work into her, plus I don't think she's been too badly screwed up!! :)

[Lazy Palomino Hunter]

It sounds like your guy's real problem isn't that he's putting his head down, ;) but rather a) he's on the forehand, b) is traveling with his weight to his inside shoulder, and c) he's behind your leg.

This is NOT an issue which is going to be fixed by any bit. Period. This is an issue of a horse who doesn't know what is expected of him (between the bitting back, the spur stop, big bits, and vastly different rider styles... no wonder he's confused!).

I had a schooling project mare my senior year of college that had been donated because of a problem similar to what you're describing. Basically, she had been used for low level jumpers with a junior rider, with the only concern being that she made it around the course FAST.

Well, she was definitely fast- and she was dead honest and very careful about the fences. Ultimately, however, she became unsafe becase she would get so fast and out of control that her little rider was getting chucked off when the mare would "motorcycle" around corners!

I spent about 5 months riding her 5-6 days a week (with 2+ of those days being lessons). We started with re-establishing what the bit meant with walk-halt transitions. I'd walk, ask for a halt, and the SECOND all 4 feet were still, I'd drop rein pressure and tell her she was a good girl.

If your guy is like this mare... some thoughts...

- First, ELEMENTARY AIDS ARE YOUR FRIEND! This means- light rein contact, rein aids are check-and-release, and the voice is used liberally. Just like always, aids should be used in the voice-seat-leg-hand sequence.

- Establish 3 speeds at the walk first- your horse should be able to walk briskly, walk normally, and walk at a pace just a hair above standing still (ALL 3 SPEEDS should involve LOTS of leg). He should also be able to halt quietly and without resistence from any walk pace. Remember, responses to rein aids should be rewarded by releasing pressure!

- Once this has been established at a walk, move up to a trot and work on the same three-speed business.

- Only once your horse is working consistently on elementary aids and able to demonstrate adjustability within gaits at a walk and trot should you consider working on the canter.

- Try doing a lot of lateral work. As I alluded to earlier, I think a lot of horses throw their weight on their inside shoulder when they get quick and behind the leg & bit... having control over where their shoulder is going (by being able to shift their weight back to their haunches) helps quite a bit.

- When you work on the canter, remember that your goal should be a good, steady canter on very light rein contact. Don't expect him to magically be able to canter around the ring in a civilized fashion. If you pick up a canter and he canters 10 strides beautifully, drop back to a walk (with liberal seat and voice aids), give him loose reins, and pat him. If you pick up the canter and he suddenly becomes a raging lunatic... keep your leg on, half-halt, release, half-halt, release until he slows down and gets balanced. If he is balanced and calm for even a few strides, move down to a walk on a loose rein and pat him.

(side note: if you're going to circle, make sure it's a BIG circle. At least for my little mare, anything but big circles would blow her mind a little bit.)

I hate to say it but this horse may never be productive for what you want him for. The large pony I referred to would hack anywhere on the buckle...she just wasn't going to be a hunter pony. Some horses get screwed up so badly that all they will ever be are pasture puffs. :no:

This is the first thing that popped into my mind. While my little mare was reasonably good on the flat after 5 months, whenever she would get upset about anything she would fall back into her Speedy Gonzales ways.

We never made any progress over fences, unfortunately. At the beginning of the semester, we had 2 riders on a fresh OTTBs, 1 on a green-ish horse with dressage training, and then me on my reclaiming project. Mine was the only horse that had ever jumped.

At the end of the semester, ALL the other horses were w/t/c solidly, jumping 2'6" consistently, and doing either simple or flying changes with proficiency.

My mare and I were still struggling with being able to trot crossrails without blowing a fuse on the backside. It was funny, because she was DEAD QUIET on the ground and a pretty solid citizen on the trails as long as you didn't canter...

She wound up going to a pasture puff/occasional walk-trot trail ride home- she had honestly just had, IMO, one too many crappy rides and just plain ol' wasn't interested in playing the "serious-riding game" anymore. :(

[Alterrain]

what is a spur stop?

[Lazy Palomino Hunter]

what is a spur stop?

It's a western thing... horses are trained to slow down/stop when given some specific spur aid. I've never ridden a horse with a spur stop, but I can imagine it could be frustrating (particularly if you didn't know they did it)!

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I'm riding one with similar issues, though it seems his come from the fact that previous rider put him in a pelham and gave him some pretty rough rides through some bigger courses. He's close to 18hh, too, so you can imagine when he curls up so much and gets going "up and down", it gets pretty rough.

We've seen some dramatic improvement with the following:

1) DO NOT BIT UP. This will only exacerbate the problem. We started with a fat, eggbutt snaffle. He's now in a fat, fat straight rubber D ring. It's flexible, chewy, and he's really starting to reach down into the contact rather than falling behind it. Examine what type of bit you're using. If you want him to accept the contact, he's going to have to want to accept the contact- this will only happen if he's secure and comfortable with the bit he's wearing.

2) Warm up at the walk. The horse I'm riding gets about 15 minutes of walk only before we even start trotting. I try to focus on letting him stretch out and relax, then gradually start to ask him to do a little bit of simple lateral work to accept contact. During this time, I also like to take him on walks outside of the ring: up the driveway, around the outside of the rings, around the barn. We still work during this time, but it mixes things up a little, and seems to keep him interested in working.

3) Work on acceptance of the leg. This guy SUCKS at this. The second you apply leg, he tends to get BTV. From the get go, I put my leg on, and reward him for moving forward correctly. Lots of lengthening/shortening, not just simple transitions, can help with this. It's been a few weeks, and this horse is moving pretty well off the leg without acting sour about it.

Most of all, it's important to make sure the experience your horse is having is a good one. Whether this means taking him outside of the ring for a little while, or simply making the ride more positive and encouraging, it's critical that he feel confident while working. The first step in this is making sure he's wearing the right tack, bit first. I can't say this enough. Evasive horses *need* to like their bits. Try a bunch of different ones until you find one he seems to like.

[tBHj]

Have you ever out cantered him?

Put something in his mouth he can't lean on (double joint, or a waterford) and just canter him, everywheres. Small circles, big circles, full ring, down the quarter lines ect. When he slows down or breaks make him keep cantering and reward him when he's going at a better pace, and more rewards when you decide to pull him up.

Sometimes this in what they need IMO.