Safety issue and a pet peeve--

[Cartfall]

I did not want to steal another thread so I am starting this one.

Leading a horse that it attached to a carriage or cart. Am I the only one who sees this as not safe? ( and please YIP, none of this is directed as you!!!:))

I see folks do this at shows, at competitive distance drives, pleasure drives, etc. And the one that gets me the most is horse acts up so driver gets out to lead the horse. Just plain scary in my book.

We even had a very opinionate discussion recently at a distance drive clinic, where the rules state that the driver must at all times hold the reins. One girl insists her horse ground ties while they are hitched. Understand this is occuring at a water stop where there is a ton of activity, horses, people , trucks coming and going. Scary stuff!!!

It seems to me that you have a whole lot moe control in that seat with a whip. I prefer someone take my lines at CTDs while I run behind a bush rather than have them head my horse.

At home, I do the quick release rope trick Bob Giles taught me years ago so that my horse is still attached to the wall until I am ready to release him FROM THE SEAT!

Okay, off my soap box now, so am I in a minority?

[RidesAHaflinger]

I did not want to steal another thread so I am starting this one.

Leading a horse that it attached to a carriage or cart. Am I the only one who sees this as not safe? ( and please YIP, none of this is directed as you!!!:))

Okay, off my soap box now, so am I in a minority?

If you're in the minority then I'm in it with you. People leading horses hitched to empty vehicles is one of my pet peeves. You only need to see (or imagine) the aftermath of a horse taking off with an empty attached vehicle to understand this. They can pull away from you in a nano-second while being led and then you've totally lost control and launched an unguided missile. :eek:

I know more than one new driver who has gotten into trouble hitching in cross ties in the barn aisle. There is that 'moment of truth' between releasing the cross ties and getting yourself into the vehicle, with the horse having open unimpeded space in front of her. If you have to harness and hitch alone, figure out a way to get in the vehicle safely with the horse still under control. The self-release tie is one way to do that and can be used in any situation. If you're away from home, for example hitching while at your trailer, the self-release tie can be used to provide a little safety insurance in strange surroundings.

At home I built a very sturdy outside hitch rail facing a wall. There is no way to move left from the rail because of another structure and the horses have to make a tight pivot to move away to the right. They essentially have no where to go while I'm getting in the carriage. Even so, I used the self-release tie for a long time until they were rock-solid in their training. I still do refresher training with them at the hitch rail, varying the length of time before I ask them to move off. They don't move an eyelash until they hear a quiet "yup" from me. The self-release tie is a useful back-up but it doesn't replace hours of training, not to mention good common sense about safety.

[SmokenMirrors]

I never get out and lead my team, as you both said, I stay in the seat and I drive them to wherever were going and only then when were up against the trailer, if were at a show, someone has them, only then do I get off the wagon or cart. At home if I have had to hitch and drive solo, when I was driving single, I had her up against the fence, she stood till I was in the cart, then off we went.

However, this may be a bit different, at some fun days and plow days, we have teamsters and folks who have been driving before I was even a thought. I have seen one man drop the lines of his 3 abreast Percheron geldings and walk away. Those animals never moved unless it was to shift their weight from one back hoof to the other and go back to sleep. So I firmly believe that training and time and a solid base is a must.

[horsegeeks]

I lived by myself in the country and had no help. By necessity, I hitched and unhitched alone. I had my horses ... including those I was training ... tied until they were completely harnessed and hitched.

I then lead them to the point I wanted to drive from .... keeping the reins firmly in my hands. Slowly walked back to the cart and got in. They all stood quietly until I got in.

When I went to shows I always had help. There was too much confusion to take any chances ... even with a well trained horse. The rules of the Morgan pleasure driving and park harness classes require a header.

Was what I did at home dangerous? Possibly. But it was that approach or not drive. I also view driving as very dangerous and have been criticized for having my horses "broke to death" before their hitched. (Not a criticism to me!:))

Would I do it again? I honestly don't know. But now I'm married and my husband is willing to help out. It won't take much of his time to hold Lilly while I get in and out of the cart.

[SmartAlex]

It makes me nervous. Even ground driving while hitched makes me nervous. I've seen carts become deadly weapons... I'd rather be in it than run over it.

What scares the crap out of me is our neighbor who rides her Percheron while pulling a cart full of joy riders. Granted, people have been riding postillion for centuries, but that whole set up just doesn't look safe to me.

ETA: Her set up is bareback, barefoot and helmetless... I don't know if I'm more worried for her or the people in the cart.

[Yip]

At home, I do the quick release rope trick Bob Giles taught me years ago so that my horse is still attached to the wall until I am ready to release him FROM THE SEAT!

Several of you talk about this method but never mention how it's done.

There is that 'moment of truth' between releasing the cross ties and getting yourself into the vehicle, with the horse having open unimpeded space in front of her.

This is not my situation. Cookie stands beautifully while I get in and out. My only place to crosstie is near my feed/tack shed and the posts are about the same distance apart as my carts are wide. Forward is open, but if she's not perfectly straight, we're going to snag a post with a wheel. I don't know how she'd react to that and I don't want to be inside when it happens.

Going backward from the ties is uphill, and there are several huge roots and rock outcroppings exposed. Backing over those would be difficult and I would be thrown forward if Cookie puts any force into it on the second try after stalling. Then I'd have to make a very hard left to get away from the left side post. Going right the trees are too close together.

Remember, I'm just starting out. I'm always alone to harness and hitch. I know the set-up is not good, but until I have a better way to tie, I'm choosing the least of the 3 evils. I only walk out about 10-15' and Cookie stands still while I get in the cart. I hate it, believe me, but it's what I have to work with now.

By necessity, I hitched and unhitched alone. I had my horses ... including those I was training ... tied until they were completely harnessed and hitched. I then lead them to the point I wanted to drive from .... keeping the reins firmly in my hands. Slowly walked back to the cart and got in. They all stood quietly until I got in.

This is what I'm doing. It's only about 1-1.5 horse/cart lengths till we're free of tangles.

Even ground driving while hitched makes me nervous.

Rest assured I would NEVER do that!

I know I need to find a better place to tie. Since we'll have to drill into rock for posts, I can't afford to make mistakes. Please give me some more examples of safe places to harness/hitch so I can make an informed decision about location, posts, hitching rail, etc. The barn is very small - but also no straight, open way in and out due to the placement of trees, gate, and smallish corral.

Thanks! I know you're concerned for our safety.

Yip

[Cartfall]

Several of you talk about this method but never mention how it's done.

Thanks! I know you're concerned for our safety.

Yip

Again this is one of those things that pops up every couple ofyears. So maybe it is time again!!

YIp get yoursself a 20 foot long piece of cotton clothes line or parachute chord.

Find a place to hitch where your horse is facing something like a very stout pole or hitching rail that is built out of stout posts and cross boards. A wall will do as well. A stout big fence pole will do as well. Do not tie to a fence board. My hitchin post is 2 5 to 6 inch round pole 4 feet in the ground with concrete at their base. Then my husband put two 2 by 6 s lagbolted through the posts so they are parallel to each other and the ground about 4 feet above the gound. We then put a horizontal board to brace them even further. At shows I use the side of my trailer.

Tie this rope at one end securely. Bring your horse up to the place where the rope is tied. Do a daisy chain with this rope to the ring of his halter so that he has only about 18 inches or so from the tied end. Do your daisy chain about 5 or 6 times. You will still have about 18 feet of rope left.

Once your horse is harnessed and ready to drive off, take the end of the rope with you to the cart. Get in the cart. Get ready to drive. Once you are all ready, tug your end of the rope and the daisy chain will unravel. Toss the rope in direction you will not be going. Turn your horse away from the rope and drive on. You never had to have the horse loose wih you not in the cart.

I have permenant ropes as crossties on my hitching post. I crosstie while I am harnessing and putting to. Then I do the daisy chain thing and drop the crossties.

Hope this helps. As most of us drive alone, we all have things to share to make it safer for all of us.
And again, this is not aimed at you. You just happened to be the one who mentioned handwalking your horse in cart.

We all had to learn from someone else. So if I can pay forward what was given to me freely to make me a better driver, I am glad to do it.

[LostFarmer]

In my opinion, I would rather drive a green pair through the depths of hell than lead a hitched horse at anytime. I have far more control with the lines in my hands that when I am on the ground. I have many of those moment of truth moments when I have to stop and open a gate while hitched. Head the horses into a fence to the side of the gate. Open the gate get on the vehicle turn around and head them into the fence again. Close the gate and get on again. The method that Cartfall uses works well when hitching but not so well at gates. (I use a variation of this method myself.)

If I have my kids with me I have one hold the lines rather than try and hold the heads while hitched. I am not a fan of holding heads at any time while hitched. LF

[Yip]

I placed Cookie in the crossties backwards today, so she was facing open lawn.

The cart was back behind her ready to be brought up. It all worked but it was dicey at best. I had to push th ecart up a rise that has big roots and big rock outcroppings. Not a problem.

When bringing the cart forward it wanted to pick up speed on th elittle downhill. It stalled at the rock bar and exposed root - and wanted to lurch forward to get going again. I was able to control it, but the shaft tips could have easily poked her in the butt causing a disaster. Everything was straight and centered, so I had no problem driving out instead of leading.

BUT, I don't think I want to try that again alone. It took a lot of strength and control on my poart and could have ended in disaster. We'll have to look around and see where we can build a better tie area.

Thanks, everyone!

Oh, as an aside, something bizarre happened today. I noticed Cookie was looking to the right ( 1 o'clock) consistently. She had never done this before, and when I noticed she didn't seem happy either, I began thinking in earnest. Then I saw the right line was caught in the bering rein hook. We pulled into a driveway & Cookie stood like a pro while I got out, then back in. I learned that I can trust her to pull over and stand if I have to get out. The line wasn't in the hook when we left, so I need to be very careful and watchful.

Yip

[DebbieB]

I don't see the fascination with cross-ties. I had been tying horses to posts and trees for 20 years before I had seen a cross-tie.
My favorite place to tie is a ring hanging from a stout limb ( no stout limbs available at this farm), my next favorite is against a wall. When I hitch my pony I tie her standing with her face to the barn wall. When we come back from a drive we pull up to the barn tie spot. If she wants to leave she has to back up and make a turn before she goes anywhere.
Yip, why don't you tie your horse to one post, facing up the hill, or put a cross bar on the cross-tie posts so that she has to turn when leaving instead of charging straight ahead between the posts?

[SmokenMirrors]

In my opinion, I would rather drive a green pair through the depths of hell than lead a hitched horse at anytime. I have far more control with the lines in my hands that when I am on the ground. I have many of those moment of truth moments when I have to stop and open a gate while hitched. Head the horses into a fence to the side of the gate. Open the gate get on the vehicle turn around and head them into the fence again. Close the gate and get on again. The method that Cartfall uses works well when hitching but not so well at gates. (I use a variation of this method myself.)

If I have my kids with me I have one hold the lines rather than try and hold the heads while hitched. I am not a fan of holding heads at any time while hitched. LF

LF...you had me remember that when we go to farming fun days, some of the obstacle courses had us go up to a fence, get off, open the gate, get back on the skid, drive the horse through, stop them, close the gate, then get back on the skid and go through the rest of the obstacle. I think part of this was to show that our horse could stand and obey the command, as what were folks like you, who do actually use their horses for every day farming. Being able to have a team stand at a gait and be trusted enough to do so, to me personally, is a big accomplishment and shows the trust they have in their driver.

[Thomas_1]

I'd not seen this posting until right now and that was after I'd already posted to tell Yip that it's dangerous.

I've a lovely customer who had a major accident with a horse that was doing exactly that. She was getting lessons from one of those "self-proclaimed/self-taughts" and hence didn't know any better until the day that there was an unmitigating disaster and she got felled to the ground by the carriage and her horse ended up half a mile from where it started in a ditch with it's carriage on top of it!

I came to meet her to try to help her recover her shattered confidence and then in turn to see if her horse could be recovered.

She's a lovely lady who came to appreciate too late just how unsafe this is. I hadn't actually known the precise detail of her wreck until after I'd given her a driving lesson and was going through the meticulous detail of safety and risk management and explaining precisely what you DON'T do and ALWAYS do IF you value your life and the health, welfare and life of your horse. She then burst into tears and "confessed" that she was leading her horse by it's reins when the unexpected and unanticipated then happened!

I'm with LF re this matter. I'd rather drive a pair through fire and brimstone!

I personally don't know any 'real' competent drivers that would ever do it. It's ALWAYS those who are innocent and naive and to such an extent they don't know what they don't know. I always tell people it's dangerous and risky. I won't get into a discussion or an argument about it. It's dangerous. It's a fact. Nothing more to say!

I have actually also told someone to take a driving horse off my premises having had to put up with listening to him blether on about how it's not that dangerous. In the end I decided that the only way to ensure he got the point was to say "well it's too dangerous for me and mine and you're not paying me enough to have anything that dangerous here, so away you go"

[Yip]

I'm not going to do that anymore. I'll have to come up with something. I have a lot of huge girth trees I can tie to till we find the best place to build a hitching post, and will try the daisy knot method if necessary.

I figured it was not safe and just prayed each time - but I hated doing it, which shows me that I shouldn't be doing it. I feel really vulnerable and unhappy while doing it, so will just stop now.

Really, I thank all of you for setting me straight on just how dangerous it could be.

Yip

[whoopdeedo]

No one has mentioned about lifting the shafts up while coming into the the tugs? Bringing them down over the equines back putting to into the tugs? Is it the better method than just coming straight in, possibly poking a moving rear-end, spooking the equine? I always verbally use my mule's name, and tell her "we are putting to now.." and the shafts are gently put to the tugs.
Has anyone ever discussed the systematic, preference as to what you do first after the shafts are put to?...is it tugs, tie-down, then breeching, and then reverse the order when un hitching? Is consistency good for the relaxation of the animal?
And, mentioning Bob Giles the other day at his clinic, once hitched, he said," just let the equine just quitely fade away in the direction you intend to go" All the hitching was done, facing a fence.

[Yip]

No one has mentioned about lifting the shafts up while coming into the the tugs? Bringing them down over the equines back putting to into the tugs? Is it the better method than just coming straight in, possibly poking a moving rear-end, spooking the equine?

I do know that and follow that rule.


Has anyone ever discussed the systematic, preference as to what you do first after the shafts are put to?...is it tugs, tie-down, then breeching, and then reverse the order when un hitching? Is consistency good for the relaxation of the animal?

I do that too. Tugs, traces in singletree, then breeching. What's a tie-down?

All the hitching was done, facing a fence.

I'm beginning to like the idea of a solid surface in front then back out.

No fences available near the tacking area or cart sotrage, but we have to pass along the back of the house on the way out. Maybe a hitching rail near the door and parallel to the house. I could harness in the normal place, then walk her to the hitching rail, and have the cart waiting over there. I would also find it useful there near the door when I need to tie up a riding horse if I have to run into the house for something.

Does that sound like a good plan?

Yip

[RidesAHaflinger]

It sounds like a good plan to me. I'm glad you've been persuaded that leading a hitched horse isn't a good idea. Prayers are nice but I like a little insurance myself. :winkgrin:

And now I'll caution you to be sure you're well clear of the hitch rail before you make your turn away from it and get underway. Expect that the horse may inch forward a bit and put you within range of catching the post on harness or shaft. Allow plenty of maneuvering room until the two of you get the hang of pivoting away from the hitch rail with no forward motion. I've caught my horses on the end of the hitchrail once or twice. They have not been bothered by this as both have been thoroughly trained in remaining calm whenever I get us into a stupid situation. :eek: But it's still something to avoid if possible.

[Thomas_1]

Excellent decision Yip.

[Yip]

I'm glad you've been persuaded that leading a hitched horse isn't a good idea.

It didn't take much convincing! It even felt scary and wrong when I did it. I usually listen to my spirit a lot better than that.

I will do as you say when backing. I need a lot of practice backing straight and into turns, and this will be a good place to do it.

Thanks, everyone!

Yip

[Cartfall]

No one has mentioned about lifting the shafts up while coming into the the tugs? Bringing them down over the equines back putting to into the tugs? Is it the better method than just coming straight in, possibly poking a moving rear-end, spooking the equine? I always verbally use my mule's name, and tell her "we are putting to now.." and the shafts are gently put to the tugs.
Has anyone ever discussed the systematic, preference as to what you do first after the shafts are put to?...is it tugs, tie-down, then breeching, and then reverse the order when un hitching? Is consistency good for the relaxation of the animal?
And, mentioning Bob Giles the other day at his clinic, once hitched, he said," just let the equine just quitely fade away in the direction you intend to go" All the hitching was done, facing a fence.

Hi Peg,

I in my limited experience and having been to many Bob clinics, come in over the top of the hip, touch each hip with the shaft, then lay the shaft in my open loop, close the quick release loop and then hitch the tugs to the swivel tree, then the hold backs.

If you are talking about the martingale as the tie down, I am not sure exactly where it comes in.

There is an actual ADS pleasure show class that has the contestants pull into a marked area, unhitch and rehitch their animal. They are judged in time and order of harnessing. Pretty much the order described above.

:D:yes:

[War Admiral]

In my opinion, I would rather drive a green pair through the depths of hell than lead a hitched horse at anytime. I have far more control with the lines in my hands that when I am on the ground. I have many of those moment of truth moments when I have to stop and open a gate while hitched. Head the horses into a fence to the side of the gate. Open the gate get on the vehicle turn around and head them into the fence again. Close the gate and get on again. The method that Cartfall uses works well when hitching but not so well at gates. (I use a variation of this method myself.)

I agree. Gates are a NIGHTMARE. Even with Avery, who was about the safest driving horse that ever drew breath, they scared me. I'd love to know the system you use, LF!

I did used to hitch alone and always put to facing a wall. I rarely led, and only ground drove a few times up one very steep hill I didn't think Avery could "make" with me in the cart. Turned out he could, so I stopped doing it - although, let the record reflect, cantering up that steep, rocky farm road could be pretty scary as well, since there was almost inevitably a new gully somewhere it hadn't been last week, or timber down somewhere on it that went CRACK! Eventually it dawned on Old Marble Head here that it was much safer to go *down* it (at a decorous walk...could always stick a wheel in a gully if I needed to slow the cart down! :lol:) than *up* it, so we simply changed our direction... I tend to be awfully slow about things like that sometimes.

[Cielo Azure]

Yikes!

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/grd/1403887995.html

[Thomas_1]

I guess that's the modern version of what King Herrod might do if he hadn't stopped at boys :winkgrin:

[hobbyhorse23]

When bringing the cart forward it wanted to pick up speed on the little downhill. It stalled at the rock bar and exposed root - and wanted to lurch forward to get going again. I was able to control it, but the shaft tips could have easily poked her in the butt causing a disaster.

Just a word, but I certainly hope things like being poked in the butt with a shaft tip or catching a wheel on something are not cause for potential disasters. Those are routine things that a driving horse must be prepared for and should be desensitized to in early training so that it is not an issue. Of course none of us want those things to happen in the course of actual hitching or driving as they are unpleasant for the horse and hard on the equipment, but we still must be prepared for them!

When hitching a green horse I bring the shafts up alongside them and bump all up and down their sides and yes, straight into the buttocks when they are ready for that and praise the horse for standing steady. A horse who is properly desensitized to breeching shouldn't react that goosily to a shaft tip in the rear anyway as they are already used to pressure back there. As for getting a wheel stuck, I very much sympathize with your fear as it is an awful moment for a new driver but you can practice a bit with some solid poles on the ground. Ask Cookie to run a wheel over a flat board and get used to that bump, then graduate to a round pole with a little more "oomph" to it. Have her pull into a square, pivot and step out. Back into and out of some U-shapes. Anything to get her used to the sensation of a wheel getting stuck and teach her to either pull into it or halt and back off it as you command. I hate being asked to do this in a fine show harness for obstacle classes but with a properly padded harness and time to do it slowly and softly it's a good training exercise. That way you will feel less stressed about potentially catching a wheel as both you and your horse will know how to handle it and get unstuck safely.

I think your idea of a hitching rail by the house sounds great. Go with that! :D

As for order of hitching, I notice people are using "tug" in several different ways. Some people are using it to mean both the shaft loop ("quick release tug") and traces. That's a regional thing but a bit confusing if you're not sure what they're each talking about! :lol: By "tie-down" I assume the person in question was asking about the overgirth or wrap straps, not a martingale. So for me I bring the cart up and settle the shafts in the tugs/shaft loops, attach the traces to the singletree, wrap the breeching holdback straps, then snug down the overgirth. I was taught you do the traces first so if the horse should spook and lunge forward the cart does not fall out of the tugs and end up around his feet, frightening and potentially injuring him. You do the breeching second because if the horse lunges forward with only the traces attached the cart will roll up on him when he stops and possibly smack him in the hind legs, causing a renewed fright and leap forward. Once both of those are done you can do the tie-downs as their main purpose is to keep the shafts from flipping up (not relevant until someone is in the cart) and to keep the shafts close to the horse's sides; again, the least critical function of the three for a horse who might be spooking. It sounded logical to me!

Leia

[MySparrow]

What Leia said!

[China Doll]

I was always taught to hitch the horse while holding the reins. It has alwys workied well for me.