Blue Tongue World Cup - No Words Can Express Just How WRONG This Is

[Roan]

Except that I am outraged that it is allowed to happen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k&feature=player_profilepage

Eileen


ETA: Added "Blue Tongue World Cup" so that people don't mistake this for that other video again.

[see u at x]

Except that I am outraged that it is allowed to happen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k&feature=player_profilepage

Eileen

What absolute @!&*$$($...both the rider and the trainer. I could not even stand to watch much of it.

[piccolopony]

Did I see right that he stopped to shove the horse's tongue back in it's mouth?

[see u at x]

Did I see right that he stopped to shove the horse's tongue back in it's mouth?

You sure did. At least that's what I'm pretty sure I saw, too.

[scribbles]

that is extreme, and when the horses tounge is blue... wouldnt you think you would know that something was not right?

[piccolopony]

You sure did. At least that's what I'm pretty sure I saw, too.

:mad: How can that even be possible? :mad:

[Roan]

I think he may have gotten his tongue caught between the bradoon and curb bits.

Eileen

[ideayoda]

And what of the other 90 minutes of tutelage???

[War Admiral]

Charming. :cry:

ETA: The more I think about this the more it pisses me off. Where the HELL is the FEI????

[esdressage]

My heart hurts for that beautiful horse. What must the schooling be like at home if this is what's done in the warmup arena?

And is it just me, or do many people in and around the arena seem to literally (intentionally and physically) be looking the other way?

:cry:

[Beasmom]

Ugh.

[TKR]

Has the rider/trainer/horse/owner been identified? Has anyone sent this to the FEI or contacted them regarding the abuse. Because it is a visual, how can it be denied? I don't see how just lamenting it on a message board helps the horse. Just another example of why so many compete -- ego, acclaim, fame, money, -- nothing that involves the horse's best interest.
PennyG

[mbm]

fwiw, the tongue out thing is not new.... during the young horse gp classes at the median cup the entire test was tongue out and his score was really bad to reflect it.

so much for the "it's only for a moment in time" camp ....

[katarine]

eee gads. That's it, no more bashing WP folks, you have your owned high level learned helplessness going on here. and 2 hours of that. over and over and over. Really hard to watch.

It's sad what some people will do for fame and ribbons. Just sad.

[mbm]

what is the FEI going to do? it isnt illegal. and it was a FEI show so they were there and could of stopped it if they wanted.

re: bbs - BBs can be a good place for grass roots protests - see performance standards,. etc

the problem with Roll kur is that we, the grass roots lack the $$ that the big guns do so they can brush us o as uneducated plebs.

[JSwan]

I think he may have gotten his tongue caught between the bradoon and curb bits.

Eileen

I'd like to stick that guy's pen** between those bits.


I'd need tweezers and a magnifying glass to find it but it would be worth the effort.

:mad:

[esdressage]

Has the rider/trainer/horse/owner been identified?

Yes, that info is all on the description of the video on the right side of the screen. The description is as follows: "KWPN Stallion Watermill Scandic ridden by Swedish Patrik Kittel during a two hour session of various degrees of hyperflexion at the World Cup dressage qualifier in Odense, Denmark. Early on in the session, the horse's tongue has turned blue and limp and flops out of the stallion's mouth. Stopping the horse, the rider leans forward and fixes the problem, using the hand furthest from the camera. After this, the session is continued for a minimum of 90 minutes in the same way. This pair is trained by Dutch chef d'equipe, Sjef Janssen, who was present at the warm up arena."

[hessy35]

To stop this kind of abuse we need to work our way down from the TOP of the sport. Until that happens, this will continue.

[dbadaro]

Has the rider/trainer/horse/owner been identified? Has anyone sent this to the FEI or contacted them regarding the abuse. Because it is a visual, how can it be denied? I don't see how just lamenting it on a message board helps the horse. Just another example of why so many compete -- ego, acclaim, fame, money, -- nothing that involves the horse's best interest.
PennyG

the caption for the video identifies who the person is.

this is just disgusting. simply sickening.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I gagged just watching and couldn't go past 40 seconds.

I so wish the horse could have leapt up, bucked this asshat off. Of course, the poor horse would have been punished for that then as well.

[FancyFree]

That was horrible! I couldn't watch the whole thing. So the tongue was blue due to lack of circulation? The horrendous hyperflexion was cringe inducing to watch. Did you notice some of the spectators expressions? They looked shocked. Did anyone say anything to that rider?

[TheTetrarch]

The ring stewards can't do anything? I guess warm-up is always a free-for-all, is it?

[War Admiral]

I *thought* the FEI had policies in place against horse abuse...?? I sure seem to remember that card being played against McClain that time...???

[FancyFree]

I wonder if his site is getting a lot of hits? Emails probably are pouring in. I sent him one.

http://www.patrik-kittel.de/patrik_englisch/contact.htm

[ideayoda]

They do have policies, and often TDs hand out cards which disappear thanks to the committee. That said there is NO dressage FEI committee now (nor has there been for about six months) until November (wonder who will be on it).

The fact is that until the judges hold the spirit and letter of the directives/rules, nothing will change. And given the results (69% in the gp and 76&..and third) in the GP why should he change...a line up of rk!!! Interesting the rider notes his horses 'willingness in the arena'.

Not until people stand up in those situations, turn their backs to the performances, and do not applaud the purveyors (aka sadists), nothing will change. Perhaps the bridles should be thusly on the tender shins of the women and the men, well, make it up in your own minds.

[War Admiral]

Well, I observe that Princess Haya has two easily obtainable e-mail addresses...

[monstrpony]

At our local recognized dressage show in August there was a rider on an obvious older schoolmaster who was in the habit of sticking his tongue out. The "solution" was to crank the caveson as tight as possible and then stuff the horse's mouth with grain, just before he went in the ring. Lasted about half of the test, but I really felt sorry for the horse; that noseband was awfully tight.

Agree w/ what katarine said about WP ain't got nothin' on upper level dressage. There's bad horsemanship everywhere ...

[War Admiral]

URGENT - I just thought of something. I'm at work and can't do it - can someone download this video off YouTube before it disappears??

[Dressage_Diva333]

That is absolutly sickening. It's accomplishing nothing positive, and looks downright painful. The horse looks stiff and braced... not surprising in the least. Anky is also in that warm-up ring if I'm not mistaken. It seems that Sjef and Anky are well known for the whole rollkur ordeal, it's not surprising to me that Sjef's other students are doing the same. It's sad. It's just plain sad.

[mbm]

URGENT - I just thought of something. I'm at work and can't do it - can someone download this video off YouTube before it disappears??

done :)

[qhfan2]

One of my friends had her co-worker translate the message which scrolled at the end of the video (for those of you who could stand watching all of it):

the translation goes somthing like this
“we guarantee that the animal was left with only light/slight back pain and next day was in perfect condition for a return jump / or to return to jumping. “

JUST SICKENING!

[War Admiral]

done :)

Thanks! You hang onto that one; I got one from someone on another forum about an hour ago. That gives us TWO safe copies! ;)

Now: let's kick some ideas around....

The key question is, what would YOU PERSONALLY ("you" meaning anybody reading this) be willing to do in order to protest this type of abuse? Ideas might include (some of these I shamelessly nicked from The Other Dressage Board):

* Sign and help circulate an e-Petition;

* Circulate the video on social media (now that we have it... :D);

* Write letters/send e-mails to Princess Haya and/or the national/international governing bodies;

* NOT applaud or support these competitors, turn our backs on them when they compete; WALK OUT when they compete;

* Refuse to renew your memberships in USDF and/or USEF, and write a letter telling them why, including photos and (links to?) videos, with a copy to the FEI and the USOC;

* Boycott or stage a walkout at the WEG;

* Boycott/e-mail/write to the sponsors.

Any other thoughts anyone else has, feel free to chip in here!

Whatever thing it is that the majority of y'all would be willing to do is, frankly, the approach that will probably yield the best results.

[Bronte]

That is the limit.
I just sent the video to Robert Dover, in his official capacity as a member of the FEI Dressage Task Force.
mbm hang on to the downloaded copy.
War Admiral, I am with you.

[War Admiral]

Oh, that's a good idea too, bronte! :yes: Consider it added to the list! Thanks!

[ideayoda]

There is NO present dressage committee with the FEI, that will happen sometime in Nov (after almost a year), and we have to consider how they were displaced in the first place. So there is no person/committee of the FEI to send anything to. And those who participate in showing and say to use that this is an issue only on bulletin boards are not likely to be very open to any input. Maybe only the open press will consider this issue, and maybe thats where it needs to go. Torque on a curb/sawing hands (which are now considered de rigeour are the equivalent of tying a dog to a stake with a choke chain. And that is abuse.

[ChocoMare]

Sickening :mad:

[Kareen]

Where is the part that is new about it? :(

[SaturdayNightLive]

One of my friends had her co-worker translate the message which scrolled at the end of the video (for those of you who could stand watching all of it):

the translation goes somthing like this
“we guarantee that the animal was left with only light/slight back pain and next day was in perfect condition for a return jump / or to return to jumping. “

JUST SICKENING!

The video this thread is discussing is not the video of the grey horse jumping.

[War Admiral]

Where is the part that is new about it? :(

The part where the horse has its tongue caught between the curb and the bradoon is new, Kareen.

[qhfan2]

Please ignore my earlier post related to the jumping horse! My error!

[Nojacketrequired]

My trainer went to work for a member of the Swiss O team a few years back. He said that what he saw absolutely sickened him (Not with the trainer he was with, but at the BIG shows with the BIG names).

A two hour "warm-up" in draw reins with a groundsman holding a bamboo cane, in an arena that "wasn't in use", followed by the 20 minute "public" warm up in the actual warm up ring was pretty much a given. Horses tied into rolkur position in a stall for hours on end.(With curtains closed so the horse could "rest")...normal. And worse.

Pointing anything out to a TD was absolutely the kiss of death for anyone who was planning to make a living in the sport AND whoever they were with...and would very likely get absolutely nowhere, depending on how MANY people were willing to admit they'd seen anything at all...

I mean really...in Vegas Sjef was all over a TD who DARED to try to hand Anky a yellow card in the warm up...Something to the effect of that they hadn't come all this way to take crap from a nobody like the TD. And I believe the yellow card was waived. (If my memory is faulty please correct...)

Seriously, my trainer came back from Europe shattered at the things he saw, and has not shown since. He figures he never will, and was an up and comer before he went to Europe for the last time.

It's sad, it's wrong and it wins.

NJR

[Roan]

Word from Epona TV, who put out the video on YouTube:

". . .We have now translated the article, originally published on our Danish website, as this is creating quite an international stir, as you mentioned. You can find it here and among other things learn, that the FEI chief steward at the event did indeed recieve a complaint (from a spectator), but chose not to react. There are also a few comments from PK himself."

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/blue-tongues-at-world-cup-qualifier/

Eileen

ETA: PK = Philippe Karl
ETA: PK != Philippe Karl it's Patrick Kittel and I'm sure someone has already called me on that. Doh me for posting while watching a PK DVD. Sowwy.

[Grataan]

I just don't understand. The horse (to my non-dressage eye) looks to be a very handsome boy with lovely conformation and movement. WHY THE HELL do that to him? I too wish he'd have bucked that f***tard off. This goes beyond asshattedness imo. And I agree with jswan re the magnifying glass.

[Kareen]

The part where the horse has its tongue caught between the curb and the bradoon is new, Kareen.

I don't think so. We've seen this and worse posted over and over again yet the same ignorance defending it as just momentarily, no big deal or perfectly acceptable to follow in suit. Another famous horse's tongue was even looking as puffy and cyanotic people were scared it would turn necrotic but hey: No big deal afterall it didn't and the rider keeps winning ribbons. Big ones at shows broadcasted worldwide on TV so everything must be in order don't you think?

Why do you think the TD 'chose not to do anything about it'? My guess: He's seen it all before and has chosen not to do anything before a hundred times because this is not the exception but has sneakily more or less become the norm. Somehow all of us let this happen. And still people find it odd that Dressage as a sport is on a rapid downturn in both people actively participating and TV stations interested in covering it.
But hey, that's just me stupid German speaking. If you go back to what people have written before on this very board varying from mild accusations via verbal offence all the way to hidden threats and hatred it shows you just how far some people will contort reality when it serves an acceptable purpose (ribbons/glorification of people who win)...

[monstrpony]

My trainer went to work for a member of the Swiss O team a few years back. He said that what he saw absolutely sickened him (Not with the trainer he was with, but at the BIG shows with the BIG names).

A two hour "warm-up" in draw reins with a groundsman holding a bamboo cane, in an arena that "wasn't in use", followed by the 20 minute "public" warm up in the actual warm up ring was pretty much a given. Horses tied into rolkur position in a stall for hours on end.(With curtains closed so the horse could "rest")...normal. And worse.

Pointing anything out to a TD was absolutely the kiss of death for anyone who was planning to make a living in the sport AND whoever they were with...and would very likely get absolutely nowhere, depending on how MANY people were willing to admit they'd seen anything at all...

I mean really...in Vegas Sjef was all over a TD who DARED to try to hand Anky a yellow card in the warm up...Something to the effect of that they hadn't come all this way to take crap from a nobody like the TD. And I believe the yellow card was waived. (If my memory is faulty please correct...)

Seriously, my trainer came back from Europe shattered at the things he saw, and has not shown since. He figures he never will, and was an up and comer before he went to Europe for the last time.

It's sad, it's wrong and it wins.

NJR

My god, these people really ARE taking lessons from the WP world!

[Kyzteke]

Well, for a start people could stop worshipping the riders who use this technique excessively. Then the judges could grow eyes and actually follow the written expectations of the test. The worse offender is considered one (if not THE) top dressage riders in the WORLD and it's rare for anyone to beat her.
For crying out loud folks -- can't you see the results in the riding?!?!?!:confused: These horses are consistantly stiff, resistant, unhappy looking. The riding totally lacks harmony, lightness or brilliance. Her riding has ALWAYS looked that way. The only thing new (to me) is that now I know WHY.

The first time I saw Anky in a competition I was absolutely shocked and appalled that she won. I simply could not see what was so great about the test. And I didn't know RK from my ass.

Vote with your pocket book -- leave the sport and support another. Write the judges nasty notes. Write the FEI nasty notes. Write ME a nasty note -- wait, that won't help...but if it makes you feel better....;)

Arab halter classes had a similar "look" for many, many years. And for many, many years they had huge classes and "those" people got away with it. Just about ruined the breed. But eventually people just stopped entering and stopped caring. They did other things with their horses. Now the entries in the halter classes are WAAAYYYY down...sometimes just a handful of horses. And the registry has been forced to change the rules.

As long as this shit keeps winning people will keep using it.....

[kbbarn]

That video just ruined my day. I was having a good day too.

I first saw the video on another dressage board I frequent, then promptly came here to make sure COTH was discussing it since this board seems to get more exposure and have more outgoing opinions!

These riders must hate their horses. I cannot even fathom anyone riding like this or doing this to their horse. I know about RK, but have never really seen it in action. But now my brain has this image fused into it and think I now understand why RK is frowned upon. This 'riding' ( use the word loosely in this case) was horrible. Who seriously thinks this is okay and good for the horse?

[see u at x]

Thanks! You hang onto that one; I got one from someone on another forum about an hour ago. That gives us TWO safe copies! ;)

Now: let's kick some ideas around....

The key question is, what would YOU PERSONALLY ("you" meaning anybody reading this) be willing to do in order to protest this type of abuse? Ideas might include (some of these I shamelessly nicked from The Other Dressage Board):

* Sign and help circulate an e-Petition;

* Circulate the video on social media (now that we have it... :D);

* Write letters/send e-mails to Princess Haya and/or the national/international governing bodies;

* NOT applaud or support these competitors, turn our backs on them when they compete; WALK OUT when they compete;

* Refuse to renew your memberships in USDF and/or USEF, and write a letter telling them why, including photos and (links to?) videos, with a copy to the FEI and the USOC;

* Boycott or stage a walkout at the WEG;

* Boycott/e-mail/write to the sponsors.

Any other thoughts anyone else has, feel free to chip in here!

Whatever thing it is that the majority of y'all would be willing to do is, frankly, the approach that will probably yield the best results.

I vote for all of the above. The whole "squeaky wheel" thing and all that.

[Mozart]

Okay but how are the hyperflexion and the blue tongue connected? I have no experience with double bridles; are these not two separate issues? What does having the tongue caught between bradoon and curb have to do with hyperflexion?

[twofatponies]

Other horrors aside, who needs a two hour warmup???? What is improving in that long a session?

[Roan]

Okay but how are the hyperflexion and the blue tongue connected? I have no experience with double bridles; are these not two separate issues? What does having the tongue caught between bradoon and curb have to do with hyperflexion?

We really don't know if the tongue was caught between bradoon and curb -- that was a theory I threw out because "someone was going to, so it might as well be me". Read the link I posted above on reasons the tongue can go blue:

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/blue-tongues-at-world-cup-qualifier/

Regardless, even if the tongue were caught between the bits, there was NO WAY for that horse to swallow with his nose to his chest and a non-working tongue.

Eileen

[mbm]

the only way to affect change is to get a groundswell of average everyday folks who SPEND MONEY on shows, clothing , book setc etc.

it is ALL ABOUT MONEY. period.

we need to address it like dolphin safe tuna was addressed.

and perhaps it is time for P.E.T.A. to get involved.... drastic times /drastic measures and all that.

[War Admiral]

OK, someone on a UK forum handed me another excellent idea:

How about a simple WHITE ARMBAND campaign. Keep it classy... Everybody wears a 1" white satin ribbon armband whenever they compete. When people ask you what it's for, all you really need to say is that you'll keep wearing it until the FEI takes decisive action to put an end to abusive practices in the upper levels of the sport.

Don't even need to mention the R word...

Think about ALL those white armbands in photos, videos, in magazines, on TV, on YouTube... That'd be kinda rockin'...:)

If somebody wants to draft a petition GREAT, be my guest, I'll by all means sign it, but if people aren't comfortable with the idea, they wouldn't even need to do that. Just wear the armband.

[Roan]

OK, someone on a UK forum handed me another excellent idea:

How about a simple WHITE ARMBAND campaign. Keep it classy... Everybody wears a 1" white satin ribbon armband whenever they compete. When people ask you what it's for, all you really need to say is that you'll keep wearing it until the FEI takes decisive action to put an end to abusive practices in the upper levels of the sport.

Don't even need to mention the R word...

Think about ALL those white armbands in photos, videos, in magazines, on TV, on YouTube... That'd be kinda rockin'...:)

If somebody wants to draft a petition GREAT, be my guest, I'll by all means sign it, but if people aren't comfortable with the idea, they wouldn't even need to do that. Just wear the armband.

Good idea :D

Another idea that was posted in another venue:

"I would like to add one more---go to the sponsors. Make a list of those who sponsor the big competitors who use RK. Make it a point to purchase products from non sponsors. With each purchase send a copy of your receipt and a note stating that while they manufacture and excellent product you cannot in good concience purchase them because of their support for this type of riding. This can be especially effective on big ticket items like cars/trucks trailers etc., but it works for almost anything, especially if you can get friends to do the same. Where there is money, there will be abuse. If you take away the funding and, as Dan suggested, take away the big reward of public accolade for events like the olympics, then changes can be made."

Eileen

[bort84]

The horse's tongue looked a fairly normal pink underneath, but I'm sure he was lolling it out for the same reason most horses do - he's trying to do something to alleviate the discomfort in his mouth. I'm not sure his tongue was actually blue and losing all circulation from this video, but he was CLEARLY unhappy in his mouth. I've worked with horses that need their tongues poked back in because they do this, but we're usually working to get these horses happy in the bridle so they stop feeling the need to stick out their tongues - I don't see this horse getting happy with this kind of riding.

I'm honestly curious as to how this technique can lead to some of the acceptable performances we later see... Sure the horses may look tense, but they also perform relatively well considering this type of warm up work. I've heard the reasoning behind it from the people who use it and those who abhor it, but I still see performances that are better than I'd expect possible from this technique. One of the hardest things to fix in a horse is the learned habit of staying behind the bridle and behind the vertical. It's horrible to ride and try to correct, they just can't use themselves properly.

Anyway, I'm one that has not had any first hand experience with rollkur, so I try not to judge overmuch since I have never seen a lot of these people train in person or even train for more than 15 seconds on a video. I find this video very hard to defend, however. It's just the complete opposite of the goal of dressage and riding in general. And there's no way anyone can say that's a happy horse... Did we all notice that happy kick aimed at the rider's leg toward the end of the vid. Yech. I'm the first to admit that horse training can be an ugly process from time to time with certain individuals. It's not all butterflies and roses, but this was in a public warm up ring! It's like they think if they act like it's no big deal in public, everyone else will think it's no big deal too?

It seriously reminds me of the stuff I used to see growing up at big arab shows late at night (both english and western trainers). They just dominated the horse through bridle and spurs, and I was always shocked that those sour (and usually bridle lame) things ever won a ribbon - but they did. I'm not going to condemn all of the pros that people claim use this technique, but if this trainer is under Sjef's coaching, that does not tell me good things about Sjef. Plus, this wasn't really the brief use of hyperflexion that Sjef usually describes. This was a pretty solid block of time for a horse to work in a cramped position like that.

I just don't get it. And, again, I don't see how this gets any results at all.

[indyblue]

This video has disgusted me.What disgusts me the most is that for two hours no one stopped him.On a side note the horses front bandage/boot situation is crazy.Riding with that get up for two hours would heat the tendons up so much that it would increase the chance of injury.I want to punch that guy in the head.I am a fan of Ankys but I can see her riding around in the warm up area in that video (Im sure its her) and I tell you Id like to give her a swift kick as well.

[slc2]

I could not continue to watch it. It made me physically ill. It's not unusual to see a horse put his tongue out, but it really appeared that the color of the tongue was dusky, and I'm sure it was being trapped or pinched somehow.

It isn't unusual for horses of that type to be worked for long periods of time, that in and of itself isn't odd, though two hours seems like a bit much even for horses like that...what is absolutely insane is that the guy just left the tongue like that. It doesn't just bother the horse, it makes the rider look like a first class oblivious bad trainer.

It looks like the horse got his tongue over or between the bits. He no doubt can tell or feel, or something, that that's going on, at least I would think he could given how curled up he's got the horse.

Without the tongue to cushion the bars of the mouth, the effect of that going on that long is just horrific, the mouth isn't built to carry the bits without the tongue cushioning it.

The fallout from this is going to be vile. People do not appreciate such garbage.

[indyblue]

I hope your right about the fallout SLC2.Personally Im sending the rider an email.Not that he is going to care less what I think but Im doing it anyway.

[pattir7]

I'd like to stick that guy's pen** between those bits.


I'd need tweezers and a magnifying glass to find it but it would be worth the effort.

:mad:

Oh now *that* produces quite the visualization... :D

[slc2]

Who's the rider? I missed that.

[ideayoda]

http://www.patrik-kittel.com/

[indyblue]

Post 24 has a link to his website.

[pattir7]

It really bothers me that so many people watched and no one did anything. I realize it isn't illegal... but I simply could not stand by and watch something like that idle. I kinda liken it to spectators at a dogfight...not much different. Sometimes you just gotta do what's right...damn the torpedos. Nobody had the nuggets to do anything...nothing. It continued for 2 hours. :mad:

[Mike Matson]

The Global Dressage Forum is meeting next week.

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2009/09gdf/wust.html

Perhaps people here know people who will be attending. I do (a journalist). Bring this video to their attention and ask that they bring it up for discussion at the forum. Let's see what the "powers" have to say and then we move on from there for further action. This has to stop and with the power of the global internet social networks, it can.

The USDF annual convention is coming up in December. I suggest those attending the Board of Governor's meeting propose a resolution that the USDF officially condemn this type of training and warmup. Let's get our national organization on record.

And yes, it's time to vocally display our displeasure at international competitions (e.g, the upcoming World Equestrian Games) for competitors who use this type of training and warmup. Let's make it as uncomfortable for the riders as it is for the horses.

[maudie]

what about a white armband with this image on it?


http://www.ridingart.com/images/No-Rollkur-1.gif

[piccolopony]

Oh now *that* produces quite the visualization... :D

yeah, I'd be willing to help fund the plane ticket to get JSwan there :D:lol:

[Bronte]

The FEI does have the ability to discipline and stop this behavior. All FEI Stewards are empowered by the Code of Conduct:

Code of Conduct
The Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI expects all those involved in
international equestrian sport to adhere to the FEI’s Code of Conduct and to
acknowledge and accept that at all times the welfare of the horse must be
paramount and must never be subordinated to competitive or commercial
influences.
1. At all stages during the preparation and training of competition horses,
welfare must take precedence over all other demands. This includes good
horse management, training methods, farriery and tack, and transportation.
2. Horses and athletes must be fit, competent and in good health before they
are allowed to compete. This encompasses medication use, surgical
procedures that threaten welfare or safety, pregnancy in mares and the
misuse of aids.
3. Events must not prejudice horse welfare. This involves paying careful
attention to the competition areas, ground surfaces, weather conditions,
stabling, site safety and fitness of the horse for onward travel after the
event.
4. Every effort must be made to ensure that horses receive proper attention
after they have competed and that they are treated humanely when their
competition careers are over. This covers proper veterinary care, competition
injuries, euthanasia and retirement.
5. The FEI urges all involved with the sport to attain the highest levels of
education in their areas of expertise.
A full copy of this Code can be obtained from the Fédération Equestre
Internationale, Avenue Mon-Repos 24, CH-1005 Lausanne, Switzerland.
Telephone: +41 2131 04747. The Code is available in English, French,
Spanish, German and Arabic. The Code is also available on the FEI’s website

The Code is there, but it is not being upheld.

[Mike Matson]

Everyone get the word out to your GMOs that you want this taken up at the USDF convention at the BOG meeting. And we don't want no wishy-washy resolution. Plain English and to the point - for the sake of the horse.

And then we move on to the USEF meeting in January.

Let's make it clear that in the United States this will not be tolerated. And that may mean voicing our displeasure at competitors who are known to do this as they enter the ring at the upcoming WEG. Let them feel the "pain".

[Roan]

If anyone is into boycotting, as per post #55 (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=4453719&postcount=55), here's a list of the World Cup Sponsors:

http://www.alltechfeigames.com/about/sponsors.aspx?id=86&ekmensel=c580fa7b_8_12_86_4

Great. Ariat. Love Ariat. Time to try shopping from a different manufacturer.

Eileen

[slc2]

Actually, I don't think a product boycott is a good idea. But I also don't think the rules really give the officials the authority to stop this.

One thing I'm learning, organizations these days are very, very careful of what rules they can pass, and what they can demand of people without getting in so much legal trouble someone dismantled their organization with a huge lawsuit. As much as I hate this situation and would like to go upside this boy's head, I don't see that the officials have a good position in this one.

[sayyadina]

How in the **** is that NOT illegal? That rider & Sjef should go to PRISON for what they did to that poor horse.

Anyone else notice that all the other horses being ridden were also in some degree of hyperflexion? The problem is, EVERYONE does it, based on the way their horses move.

However, I have little faith that any serious repercussions will fall on these people. And that is the biggest reason why I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with competition.

[pattir7]

yeah, I'd be willing to help fund the plane ticket to get JSwan there :D:lol:

Furthermore, visualize what the horse would do if he had it in his teeth? :winkgrin:

[AiryFairy]

My trainer went to work for a member of the Swiss O team a few years back. He said that what he saw absolutely sickened him (Not with the trainer he was with, but at the BIG shows with the BIG names).

A two hour "warm-up" in draw reins with a groundsman holding a bamboo cane, in an arena that "wasn't in use", followed by the 20 minute "public" warm up in the actual warm up ring was pretty much a given. Horses tied into rolkur position in a stall for hours on end.(With curtains closed so the horse could "rest")...normal. And worse.

Pointing anything out to a TD was absolutely the kiss of death for anyone who was planning to make a living in the sport AND whoever they were with...and would very likely get absolutely nowhere, depending on how MANY people were willing to admit they'd seen anything at all...

I mean really...in Vegas Sjef was all over a TD who DARED to try to hand Anky a yellow card in the warm up...Something to the effect of that they hadn't come all this way to take crap from a nobody like the TD. And I believe the yellow card was waived. (If my memory is faulty please correct...)

Seriously, my trainer came back from Europe shattered at the things he saw, and has not shown since. He figures he never will, and was an up and comer before he went to Europe for the last time.

It's sad, it's wrong and it wins.

NJR

Holy shit. Is dressage going to be the next "Big Lick" scandal? Sjef needs to be chucked out of the arena if he is interfering with the way the show is run and governed. He must have pictures of FEI officials in bed with a goat for him to get away with that behavior.

[slc2]

I do want to mention something. I realize how bad this looks, but the colors really are very off in that video. I think it's the artificial lighting, maybe lithium iodine lamps or the like, but do we really know the circulation is compromised in that horse's tongue and that it's dusky or blue? Yes, I realize how bad it looks, but horses put their tongue out quite often, and some of them don't even bruise the bars of their mouths. And I am not so sure the tongue really is discolored, it does have good color to it when you see it at some angles. I looked at it some more, and the color balance in the video really is very, very bad...I am not so sure I know what I'm seeing.

A rider should always stop and put the tongue back where it belongs, because a horse CAN bruise his bars and also because it is just a bad habit, and because it CAN get caught easily on something. And horses do put their tongue out when they are not hyperflexed. To be perfectly honest, I'm not so sure of what I am seeing.

Later in the video, the horse does keep his tongue in, and his tongue doesn't actually seem to be limp at that point. We actually had a school horse that did exactly what that horse was doing, the tongue was absolutely limp.

I realize we all hate to see a horse out there so hyperflexed, but, I am really not so sure that tongue was injured, or blue. And while Kittel does hyperflex the horse, the horse doesn't appear to have an injured or bloody tongue.

[piccolopony]

Furthermore, visualize what the horse would do if he had it in his teeth? :winkgrin:

That made me smile :cool: I bet the over bending would cease :D

[esdressage]

Thanks! You hang onto that one; I got one from someone on another forum about an hour ago. That gives us TWO safe copies! ;)

Now: let's kick some ideas around....

The key question is, what would YOU PERSONALLY ("you" meaning anybody reading this) be willing to do in order to protest this type of abuse? Ideas might include (some of these I shamelessly nicked from The Other Dressage Board):

* Sign and help circulate an e-Petition;

* Circulate the video on social media (now that we have it... :D);

* Write letters/send e-mails to Princess Haya and/or the national/international governing bodies;

* NOT applaud or support these competitors, turn our backs on them when they compete; WALK OUT when they compete;

* Refuse to renew your memberships in USDF and/or USEF, and write a letter telling them why, including photos and (links to?) videos, with a copy to the FEI and the USOC;

* Boycott or stage a walkout at the WEG;

* Boycott/e-mail/write to the sponsors.

Any other thoughts anyone else has, feel free to chip in here!

Whatever thing it is that the majority of y'all would be willing to do is, frankly, the approach that will probably yield the best results.


I love the ideas of protest, but aside from linking to the video, which is fine, please don't circulate it around from a download. If you look at eponatv's youtube page (the people who posted the video) they specifically say it's copyrighted, please don't take it, and not to worry, it won't disappear. Obviously they were just as disturbed though, and they do say that if you have any questions or requests, feel free to email them and they give their email address.

Edited to add: OOOOOH, interrrrrresting! They also posted a video called "Dressage Astray" that is quite interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAWUJn5RIPQ&feature=player_profilepage This is Dr. Gerd Huschmen talking about wounds in the tongue, broken jaws, sore backs, sore polls, the suffering of the horses… He does say that he loves the philosophy behind dressage but the time has come to change this aspect of it.

[AiryFairy]

The Global Dressage Forum is meeting next week.

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2009/09gdf/wust.html

Perhaps people here know people who will be attending. I do (a journalist). Bring this video to their attention and ask that they bring it up for discussion at the forum. Let's see what the "powers" have to say and then we move on from there for further action. This has to stop and with the power of the global internet social networks, it can.

The USDF annual convention is coming up in December. I suggest those attending the Board of Governor's meeting propose a resolution that the USDF officially condemn this type of training and warmup. Let's get our national organization on record.

And yes, it's time to vocally display our displeasure at international competitions (e.g, the upcoming World Equestrian Games) for competitors who use this type of training and warmup. Let's make it as uncomfortable for the riders as it is for the horses.

Not just there. Take it to the mainstream media - this might be one situation where the media's lust for tabloid scandal might actually work in our favor. And it would get that asshat Jon Gosselin OFF my tv screen. Even PETA as much as I despise them would probably eat this video with a spoon. I don't care who does it but it needs to get out there and be a source of shame for the sport that has disintegrated before my eyes, and I"m sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. C'mon people, someone out there must have media connections!

[AiryFairy]

A rider should always stop and put the tongue back where it belongs, because a horse CAN bruise his bars and also because it is just a bad habit, and because it CAN get caught easily on something. And horses do put their tongue out when they are not hyperflexed. To be perfectly honest, I'm not so sure of what I am seeing.

Put it back? If the horse was being ridden properly it wouldn't be hanging out in the first place. The *horse* can bruise his bars? Are you freakin' serious?

[carolprudm]

Evidently Watermill is a VET CLINIC
http://www.watermolen.net/default.aspx?id=31

[piaffegirl]

People are surely aware of race horses and their tongue's being tied. Now it is more in fashion to use drop nosebands and figure eight's but again we have a tongue issue.

You will find people saying it's for the safety of the horse, not swallowing his tongue at such high speeds on and on and on. But the fact remains it's all for the "money" and "ego". I believe that is what is seen here and in the rollkur issue. Get the mostest out of the horse for the mostest in the end. Blue tongue, overbent neck, tied tongue, it's all a humanistic game of who is the bestest, fastest in the end.

Is that bad? Yeah I believe it is.

[shamrocker]

two words....horriffying and really, really sad. This makes the life of a bucking bronc look sweet in comparision, at least it only lasts a few minutes for them.

I have learned to dislike high level dressage. I've seen and heard too much through the years. Where has the compassion gone?

[wbhorseusa]

I'm surprised no one has thought to email this video and the outrage to his sponsors on his partners page.

[Beasmom]

On a lighter note, when I first saw the headline for this thread, I thought it was a horse's name, you know, "Blue Tongue World Cup", brother of "Blue Hors Matinee".

Hope no one beat me to that observation. I haven't read all the responses.

[War Admiral]

I love the ideas of protest, but aside from linking to the video, which is fine, please don't circulate it around from a download. If you look at eponatv's youtube page (the people who posted the video) they specifically say it's copyrighted, please don't take it, and not to worry, it won't disappear. Obviously they were just as disturbed though, and they do say that if you have any questions or requests, feel free to email them and they give their email address.

I understand and agree. DO NOT circulate downloaded copies. Just LINK to the original posted by epona.tv.

However, having been down a slightly similar road once before, I also know where the evidence goes when the lawyers start swinging the million pound sh*thammer. I don't see any harm in safeguarding a few extra copies in a few different countries here and there, so that WHEN (not if, but WHEN) this rider's lawyers get the YouTube copy taken down and the original seized, there are still some more available. Any copies can always be returned to the possession of the copyright holder upon request. :yes:

Now: On to Mike Matson's suggestions, which are excellent. :yes: Send a link to epona.tv's video and article to EVERY dressage person you know, ESPECIALLY your GMOs, register your disfavor, and ask them to pass it on. Some of you have got to know someone who's going to the Global Dressage Forum....??? Is it worth circulating it with a link to an E-Petition? (Mike, you wanna draft it? :yes:)

Maudie: I love your design! Badges/buttons maybe? My concern would be that amateurs sporting *any* kind of logo whatsoever while in the competition ring could potentially run afoul of (someone's interpretation of) the rules... But anybody on any competition grounds can buy and wear a button! :yes:

Lastly - let's be careful what we say on here. COTH is pretty good about stuff like this as a rule, but they get just as much threatening hate mail from lawyers as any other publication does when things are getting Ugly Upstairs In First Class. :)

[War Admiral]

I'm surprised no one has thought to email this video and the outrage to his sponsors on his partners page.

That's an excellent idea, too. This does rather seem to go beyond just one rider, however, or at least that would seem to be the FEI position. From the epona.tv article:

Odense's Chief Steward confirms to EPONA.tv that a complaint was lodged against Patrik Kittel's riding, but it was not deemed necessary to comment or take action, because Kittel was no worse than other riders using the same method.

:rolleyes:

[Beasmom]

You don't need a double bridle to turn a horse's tongue blue. A snaffle bit will do the trick if your hands are hard enough. The nastiest part, and evidence of abuse was when the tongue flopped out of the horse's mouth. I think it had been so starved for blood supply it had gone "asleep" and the horse had no control over it.

I'm all for LDR, but this ain't it. If I ever felt the need to ride a horse this abusively for a damn ribbon, I'd quit showing. At any level, this treatment is unnecessary.

[Velvet]

I remember years ago when dressage riders would laugh up their sleeves at the stupidity of western riders who did their version of hyperflexion. I never thought that someone would watch them and then think, "Wow! This is great! Let's use it on our dressage horses!"

We thought having the horse with his head to his chest was horrifically incorrect and that they were fools who wanted drones to ride.

Hmm...funny how this is now a part of our sport. Isn't that going backwards after the hundreds of years of dressage? (Let's all have a do-over and stop the insanity.)

[fp_wonders]

I do want to mention something. I realize how bad this looks, but the colors really are very off in that video. I think it's the artificial lighting, maybe lithium iodine lamps or the like, but do we really know the circulation is compromised in that horse's tongue and that it's dusky or blue? Yes, I realize how bad it looks, but horses put their tongue out quite often, and some of them don't even bruise the bars of their mouths. And I am not so sure the tongue really is discolored, it does have good color to it when you see it at some angles.

I can appreciate having a critical eye on something that is a pretty big deal. I questioned that too at first, but when I started thinking about it, if the coloration was off, the top of the tongue would look the same as the bottom of the tongue. I don't know much about the anatomy of the tongue. Would the top of the tongue lose blood flow before the bottom, showing signs of the lack of circulation earlier? Maybe someone who's a vet can help answer this. On the Epona website, they also show a still shot of (I think) another horse that has a blueish tongue, and you can see the color in comparison with the gums, so my point is that even if the coloration of the video were off, you can tell purely by comparison that something is not right. I'm in no place to determine exactly how off it is, but I know I don't like what I see one bit. Every time I see something like this, I imagine if it were my guy, and when I imagine this it makes me tear up.

I think the idea of boycotting products is BRILLIANT. But who sponsors who? Can we start a list of what companies sponsor which riders? Is it possible to make a generic letter that could be printed out to make life easier? I'd be more than happy to boycott certain companies, but I don't have the time to write out a new letter every time or research who to boycott...I'd rather have something, fill in the blanks, print it, and send it off. The easier it is to do, the more people that will do it.

I'm not opposed to an arm band, but I know that money talks and losing business is a big deal.

[Shiaway]

This was my favorite part of the article posted:

"but it was not deemed necessary to comment or take action, because Kittel was no worse than other riders using the same method. "

I just love wrong + wrong = right logic. It makes so much sense! .... not

[meupatdoes]

So let me just get edjimacated here...


...the curb shank should remain parallel to the ground at all times, y/y?
I mean, the curb-shank-parallel tour begins and 2:21 and just keeps going and going.


I'm all for standing up and turning my back to them if they ever appear in a horse show I am spectating. I'm tall too, so it will ruin the view for two rows behind me.

Sign me up for the armband, too.

[sunico]

Sometimes I hate dressage. :cry:

[gladys]

I see lots of people in the video watching. I wonder how many reported the rider to the stewart or booed the rider when they saw the horse's tongue.
I'll bet some collective booing from the audience would have gotten the rider's (and the officials') attention.

[slc2]

Why? The rider would have no idea why they were boo-ing. The only really effective thing to do is to have someone go tell him the horse's tongue is out and he needs to stop and take care of it.

Putting the tongue back in is not 'wrong' or 'bad'. I don't think that he's doing it on the side away from the camera deliberately to 'hide' his actions, that's the side it's lolling out on.

Kittel is, in fact, 'no worse than anyone else' in the sense he chooses to warm up his horse in a hyperflexed position, and so do many other people. And to be perfectly honest, I think THAT was the statement's meaning, NOT that 'oh, no worries, it's ok to have your horse's tongue turn blue and fall off'.

I'm not at all sure about the colors in that video being accurate, either blue or pink.

In fact, tongue lolling occurs independently of rollkur, all the time. In fact, I have read MULTIPLE POSTS HERE, on this forum, that lolling the tongue does not hurt the horse. I think people here are assuming this is due to rollkur and the tongue is injured.

When Robert Dover, an American rider, rode nearly an entire test at the Olympic Games on Lektron with the horse's tongue out, the reaction here was very, very different. Oh, sometimes these things just happen, it's just one of those things.

The reaction is different here for one big reason - the rider is visibly, publicly using hyperflexion, well and the tongue color. I don't like to see a horse warmed up this way or its tongue out. But I do recognize that sometimes, horses get their tongue over the bit and it does, in fact, sometimes just 'happen'.

It is not hyperflexion per se that causes this, and if tongue lolling was a generic reaction to the cruelty of hyperflexion, we would see tongues flapping on every single hyperflexed horse. And if, as is proposed here often, hyperflexed horses are behind the bit with no bit pressure, there's no reason for them to loll their tongues to escape bit pressure.

I see no 'learned helplessness'. The rider makes a mistake with his leg aid and the horse kicks right out decisively. That action says to me the horse is not 'hopeless' and 'given up'.

He's very routinized, though, I think, to warming up in that position. More's the pity. But again, horses can get used to just about anything, that doesn't mean such training is appropriate or correct.

The problem is this.

The organizations have no charter, no authority, to stop hyperflexion. If they did, I think they would, especially in Europe, because doing so would spare them controversy and possible lawsuits and attacks and threats on riders, judges and organization officials, and even criminal prosecution - the atmosphere is different in Europe. People get fined for polling jumpers in some countries - polling them AT HOME. I think that if the organizations had the power to stop this, they actually would. Immediately.

I really don't think there is enough legal backing at any angle, the organizations charters, their existing rules, even the strictest animal cruelty laws in the given country, to stop it. If there was blood on the mouth, if someone were hitting the horse with a stick, yes. This is just not covered by the laws.

Why isn't it added to the animal cruelty laws of the countries, separately from what these organizations permit or do not permit?

I think, because of what would be then put into motion in the legal system - the banning of most training techniques and riding styles, equipment, harness and saddlery. Don't think so? I do. Why? Because I've been reading the news.

[egontoast]

Slc. you certainly changed your take on this after you were told the name of the rider. Your first post was quite different:


I could not continue to watch it. It made me physically ill. It's not unusual to see a horse put his tongue out, but it really appeared that the color of the tongue was dusky, and I'm sure it was being trapped or pinched somehow.

It isn't unusual for horses of that type to be worked for long periods of time, that in and of itself isn't odd, though two hours seems like a bit much even for horses like that...what is absolutely insane is that the guy just left the tongue like that. It doesn't just bother the horse, it makes the rider look like a first class oblivious bad trainer.

It looks like the horse got his tongue over or between the bits. He no doubt can tell or feel, or something, that that's going on, at least I would think he could given how curled up he's got the horse.

Without the tongue to cushion the bars of the mouth, the effect of that going on that long is just horrific, the mouth isn't built to carry the bits without the tongue cushioning it.

The fallout from this is going to be vile. People do not appreciate such garbage.


emphasis added so you don't have to read the whole thing!

like others, I found it difficult to watch, and not just because of the tongue.

[slc2]

I actually am allowed to discuss different sides of it, ego, and even though it may cause you some consternation and even, dismay. Nor is it the end of civilization as we know it if you don't like what I say. Somehow the earth continues to turn and doesn't wobble and fall off its axis.

The first time I looked at it, it did make me sick.

The willingness to look at different sides of it has nothing to do with the rider's name. It has to do with my looking at a few seconds, and agreeing with everyone else, and then going back and looking at the entire video, and thinking back to other posts and other occasions when tongue lolling came up, and received a very, very different reaction here. It has nothing to do with who it is, not to me.

Only in the sense that Kittel, Robert Dover and the posters here are all viewed very, very differently when their horse pokes its tongue out.

Quite a few people have posted here that they have no concern about their own horse putting its tongue out. When I pointed out that this can result in bruised bars of the mouth and that I have seen that, I was told I was wrong, not possible, and no harm done. But it is, evidently, very, very different to a number of people here, when they have their horse put its tongue out, than when Kittel does. When they do it, it's ok, when Kittel does, it ain't, and it's due to bad riding and training, not the horse having a 'bad habit' that is an 'oh well'. When Kittel does it, it requires a boycott. When someone else does it, 'oh well'.

When Robert Dover spent almost an entire Olympic ride with a horse's tongue lolling out, that was VERY ok here. That didn't have anything to do with his riding. Just one of those things. But when Kittel does it, the poopy hits the fan, and the tongue being out has a very, very different meaning.

If it can 'just happen' to Dover, and not be due to his riding and training, how does it not 'just happen' to Kittel? If it doesn't hurt a horse when it happens to a poster, why does it hurt the horse when it happens to Kittel? If it's 'unfortunate' for Dover, why is it different for Kittel?

[egontoast]

What does this have to do with Dover? Another wild cow or red herring chase I guess. I did not ever post anything about any horse with a tongue problem ridden by Dover. What does what other people may have posted about some other horse have to do with YOUR opinion about this horse?

Smoke and mirrors.

I pointed out the vastly different takes you have posted about the video.
VASTLY different.

I guess I'm "allowed" to do that, too.

[ideayoda]

Tongue problems do not just happen, they are the result of a rider's technique upon the mouth. Horses seek to remove pain, either from the bars or the tongue. It should never be excused, it has meaning in the evaluation of training. Since the curb bit is a bit of extreme leverage, it should be used as a whisper and never remain torqued for hours, which is how long some of the riders drill the horses (they are even kept with the curb torqued in supposed walk breaks. Drilling has nothing to do with methodical training, a good method means a trainer uses it more and more minimally. Drilling a horse indicates force.

At some point we have to break upper level riding into those who want to do high level materiale classes, based on the innate talent of the horses with absolute submission, versus those who want to evaluate training towards collection in which the horse is free to have its voice in a manner indicated by the fei guidelines and now ignored routinely.

[see u at x]

Sometimes I hate dressage. :cry:

I don't hate dressage, but I sure don't think much of some of the jerks who ride it. Somehow, some way, this will all come back on them in the end. I believe in karma and that what you give is what you get in return. They'll all get their comeuppance someday, and if there's a way that I can help facilitate that day happening, I will. The sad part is what all of their horses go through in the meantime.

[SGray]

Word from Epona TV, who put out the video on YouTube:

". . .We have now translated the article, originally published on our Danish website, as this is creating quite an international stir, as you mentioned. You can find it here and among other things learn, that the FEI chief steward at the event did indeed recieve a complaint (from a spectator), but chose not to react. There are also a few comments from PK himself."

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/blue-tongues-at-world-cup-qualifier/

Eileen

....


perhaps the Steward will react once the horse's tongue falls off

[torontodressage]

perhaps the Steward will react once the horse's tongue falls off

Or..................the steward knew that this happened with Scandic many times before and it was never a problem. :yes:

[War Admiral]

Do we know yet who the judges and TD will be at the KY WEG?

[Coreene]

www.horsesport.org is where you'll find the email addresses to complain to. Probably much more effective than armbands or boycotts.

[torontodressage]

If you go through the millions of postings of this subject, (and can read and understand Dutch) you will read from his former riders and grooms, that this tongue problem was a long time habbit of Scandic.

[ideayoda]

And so if that's true why would anyone ride in such a way that the tongue suffers more???? It is counter to every training method which could reverse the problem.

[mbm]

i mentioned back on page one that scandic had his tongue out at the median cup.... he was scored down for it.

clearly it is an ongoing theme for this horse.

[canyonoak]

So. We have 4 1/2 minutes of video, in which a sloooowed-down 45 seconds is spent showing the tongue hanging out. Another sloowed-down 30 seconds or so shown with rider sticking tongue back in mouth.

We have a horse with a tongue problem long pre-dating this rider, who actually seems to have solved the problem of late.

We have Laura Bechtolsheimer buying Tellwell from this rider only this past month.

We have the video-maker saying it is not her job to complain to FEI or show management...

Would any of this even rate a thread let alone the mob mentality replies if it could not somehow be associated with Sjef Janssen?

gosh, let's all get our pitchforks and storm the castle and slay the monster!!!

You know, every so often there is a group who feels it absolutely necessary to advance their holier-than-thou agenda. Quite honestly, I'm amazed that in all this time since the last go-around, this is the first opportunity they've had to raise the protest.

I would have thought it would be much easier and faster than this if there was all the abuse really existed.

(yah yah Im running and ducking and puttin' on the old flame suit, ydda yadda)

[mbm]

canyon - are you saying you agree with 2 hours of the horse being ridden like this?

if so - shame on you.

there is always the stick that breaks the camels back - this may be it for rolkur. i hope so.

[ideayoda]

The treatment of horses should be everyones concern! The point of the fei directives is for TRAINING, and there are so many horse which clearly are not trained (or judged) by those directives. Maybe this is just the straw that breaks everyones' backs? Worse than a monster and a quick death, RK is a silent virus which destroys the eye for balance and the purity of gaits.

And people who collect wonderful horses often train by the same methods.

[canyonoak]

<<
And people who collect wonderful horses often train by the same methods.>>


SO this is why Laura B. bought Tellwell????

oh come on all of you....my question above is just as misleading and based on piffle as all your outrage.


the straw that breaks the camel's --or everyone's-back..?

OK. I'm taking a break now from the BB, the computer etc.

Have at it.

[Fixerupper]

OK...hyperflexion aside...why would someone continue filming a horse with its tongue over the bit (or between the bits...whatever) and not just yell over to the rider...'his tongue's over the bit'
that's what makes me go :eek:

[esdressage]

Is people's outrage really based on "piffle" as you say, canyonoak? I think it's pretty well-known and understood that rolkur is not a healthy training practice. The fact that there are some who hope this video will help stir people into action is not really a bad thing.

[bort84]

@canyonoak - I generally try not to get overly judgmental about rollkur because I have no first hand experience with it. I don't really understand it as a technique, but I don't like to condemn things I don't know much about.

However, this video is a pretty clear example of extreme hyperflexion being used for a long period of time - this is not simply a picture or 15 second clip that can be denied away. SJ always explained this as a tool used by pros that is only used for a short period. 4 minutes is too long to do this, in my book. I mentioned before that I don't know how these riders still get decent performances after they work the horses in such an unhappy method - I don't really care if it works because it's not acceptable.

So I guess my question is, canyonoak, are you saying you support what you see in this video? I'm no radical anti-rollkur person, but I find this training to be pretty distasteful. It reminds me of the worst sort of training I would sometimes see in the breed rings after hours - riders dominating their horses with bits and spurs. Obviously this horse still performs well, but there are ways to get a horse to perform well without riding like this for 5 minutes (or 90). I don't know what the rest of the training session looked like, so I won't comment on it. But this 4 minutes is just ugly "training" and has no place in dressage, especially from a top rider that should know better (no matter what SJ says).

This is not just a picture or a clip of video that lasts for 15 seconds. This is a solid amount of time to be working any horse in that type of position. How does that go along with the goal of dressage? How can you get "harmony" from this type of riding? I've said that I know first hand that horse training can have its ugly moments. But this is an ugly technique in a public ring on a talented horse that appears to be a fairly good citizen. I suppose he could be a crazy nut that can only be controlled through riding like this, but I doubt it...

@ slc's comments - I also mentioned that the tongue is not what bothered me about this video. The underside was pink, and I'm not so sure the top was actually blue. I have also known many horses that lolled their tongue out, and it's almost always a response to poor handling of the bridle. The horse sticks his tongue out to try and alleviate his discomfort. Many horses will stop this habit if you can get them happy in the bridle again, but some will do it til the end of their days once they learn it. I don't see this horse getting happy in the bridle anytime soon though, even if this is a habit someone else created...

Anyway, slc's tone changed a bit, but she's right that the tongue is not the issue in this video. It's the riding that is just ridiculous in the dressage ring. I can't support it. This is a top competitor that has had success and should not need to be ridden like this to win - if he does need to be ridden like this to win (doubtful), he needs to be allowed to drop down to where he's comfortable.

As always, there's more than one way to skin a cat - but this is just ugly and any horse person would feel wrong about this in their gut. How can you support this, and from a top rider and coach?! I know it's still only a video clip, and this guy is obviously very very talented as a trainer in general, and Sjef's support of this technique makes people think it's okay. This was the first time I've seen actual footage of someone riding like this, to this extreme, for more than just a short short video clip. That's why it disturbs me. I wanted to give people the benefit of the doubt that this only gets used for a few strides here and there... Clearly that's not the case here.

I'm not squeamish when it comes to working horses, and I've seen far worse things done to horses in the name of "training." But just because it's not the worst thing that people do to horses does not make it acceptable.

[Lamb]

The FEI has posted a comment on youtube:

FEIs main concern has always been and will always be the welfare of the horse. We are taking the issues raised in the video and in the comments made by other Youtube viewers very seriously and have opened a full investigation. The conclusions of this investigation will be made public in due course.

[esdressage]

The FEI has posted a comment on youtube:

Nice to see that!

[FatCatFarm]

I saw the FEI comment too which I thought telling. Yeah, the tongue looked a tad blue on top, but I noticed pink underneath too. Some horses do the tongue thing, particularly stallions for some reason. Glad he at least paused long enough to address that before going back to cranking this horse's head in. The extreme hyperflexion for an extended period of time like that seems to me to be just completely nonsensical and counter productive to what you are trying to accomplish in dressage. People do some horribly weird sh*t to horses in the name of "training"; even scarier to me when "professionals" engage in questionable practices of this nature. They really should know better. Short cutting their training perhaps? Atrocious.

[War Admiral]

This might be a REALLY GOOD TIME to write, fax, phone, e-mail to the FEI. Commend them for their comment on the video and ask that they back it up by enforcing their own charter.

Keep it coming right straight at 'em.

[mbp]

I'm not sure how much of an ongoing "theme" it is for Scandic (who I love) to have his tongue out. It may be - I don't live overseas and don't get to see him in lots of competitions. I'd have to think when he won the young stallion competition in the Netherlands, it wasn't out.

It's not out here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN9MVXmNX_Y

It's not out here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsJj4i-208&feature=related

I've seen video of him and his dam doing a ride together that I can't find right now, but it wasn't out then. He's had several 70+ scores at GP.

It's my understanding that a vet or vets own Scandic (and Ampere - a lovely young horse)
and this is Scandic's stallion station/contact info
http://www.watermolen.net/contact.aspx

He's a young horse doing Grand Prix - I can't say that it's shocking he would have an incident with this tongue coming out - but that video was really tough to watch. It certainly seemed to be more than just an incident and the fact that no one did anything to really check the bits and bridle other than stuffing the tongue back in was disturbing. The color is off on the video, but the tongue color itself - whether the video is on or off - is not consistent and that seems to indicate something. The fact that the horse just kept going along and that the tongue was just summarily stuffed back in does make it seem that somehow this wasn't too surprising or concerning to the rider or trainer. That's very sad. Scandic is such a gorgeous boy.

Edited to add: Although the stallion station is in Holland and Kittel trains with Sjef, he has ridden for the Swedish team.

Also - link to a discussion about this video on the Horse & Hound site in the UK

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=newlounge2&Number=4945121&page=0&fpart=2

[webmistress32]

totally gross

there is nothing worse than taking some beautiful (dressage) and making it ugly.

[AiryFairy]

This might be a REALLY GOOD TIME to write, fax, phone, e-mail to the FEI. Commend them for their comment on the video and ask that they back it up by enforcing their own charter.

Keep it coming right straight at 'em.

I'll commend them when they take corrective action, including a suspension/expusltion and charges for animal cruelty. The fact that they, the PTB watched this and didn't act because it was no worse than all the other face bashers is beyond the pale.

[ridgeback]

Not to rain on your parade but whose to say that is the FEI commenting on that pic. I could have signed up with FEI2009 or Theo could have and posted that.

[Tiligsmom]

OK....I've stayed away from the whole Rollkur debate for the last decade, but this video made me sick. Not just the blue tongue, but the constant riding with the nose on the the chest. Now I understand why so many are outraged by this practice. It's not just riding deep to stretch over the back for moments during training.....this ride is disgusting and abusive. What can be accomplished by this?

[Tiligsmom]

Not to rain on your parade but whose to say that is the FEI commenting on that pic. I could have signed up with FEI2009 or Theo could have and posted that.

True... I just tried reaching the FEI website and it's "temporarily down". Hopefully its from outraged horseman bombarding their site!

I did a search for all things Scandic and found this from a post in August 2009 on Eurodressage report on the European Championships:

"Swedish Patrik Kittel settled in on a provisional sixth place behind Imke Schellekens-Bartels. Aboard the Dutch warmblood licensed stallion Scandic (by Solos Carex), he scored 72.255%. It was such a relief to finally see the chestnut stallion chew on the bit and foam in his mouth. Previously, the contact was the biggest issue with this horse. The nose band was always extremely tight, the tongue blue and no movement in the mouth whatsoever. Boy, this time that was different! Kittel and Scandic had a lovely ride with the piaffe and passage as absolute highpoint. All pi-pa's were of the highest level, smooth in rhythm, off the ground and with power."

Full link here: http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2009/09ec/rep_grandprix2.html

[War Admiral]

I got the requisite contact info right before the FEI site bombed. For those inclined to write or fax, here it is:

Mr. Alexander McLin
Secretary General
Fédération Equestre Internationale
Avenue Rumine 37
1005 Lausanne
Switzerland
fax +41 21 310 47 60

[NoDQhere]

OK....I've stayed away from the whole Rollkur debate for the last decade, but this video made me sick. Not just the blue tongue, but the constant riding with the nose on the the chest. Now I understand why so many are outraged by this practice. It's not just riding deep to stretch over the back for moments during training.....this ride is disgusting and abusive. What can be accomplished by this?

I couldn't agree more :mad:

[vineyridge]

The FEI doesn't care. Remember the Flap about Coby van Balen and the pony at the Euro Championships last year or the year before. Both the Dutch Equestrian federation and the FEI investigated and nobody did one damn thing. It is true that the video in question in the Power and Paint (?) episode was shorter, but it was also shocking. And resulted in a pure whitewash.

Oh, and if anyone wants to contact the breeder whose farm name is attached to Scandic, it's Dr. Jan Greve, one of the most respected names in KWPN breeding and young horse brokering. His farm is Watermill, and he can be found on the internet.

[Sweet~Pea]

cant even put into words what i want to say:mad:

but he has a lot of sponsers on his web page that im sure would like to no what his up to:)

[torontodressage]

Funny that everybody on this forum is so well informed :no:
It's obvious that the rollkür brigade has another bone to chew on.

Some more video's of Scandic, Patrik Kittel and the former rider of Scandic can be found here :

http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=224

[indyblue]

Theo.Do you like what you see in the video?Is it something you see often at the events you go to?

[Velvet]

I showed the video to two people that I thought would have very different perspectives than mine. One is a person that really loves to look at horses, but doesn't do anything with them. She watched part of the video (without the blue tongue) and was upset to see what was happening. She felt that it was absurd and totally unnatural, and abusive. She kept asking why it was done and who would do it. (She assumed it was some trainer at a lower level and had no idea where it was filmed.)

The next person is a reiner who I thought might have a different take as they often employ different methods. She too was shocked and horrified. She didn't agree with anything like this in her sport, and couldn't see why anyone at the top of our sport would do it and why it would be allowed to go on in a warm up ring at a major competition.

I'm just disgusted with our sport, and the things people will do to win. I have defended moments of over flexion for correcting only very specific problems, but not this. This is indefensible. Even if I didn't think it hurt the horse, it's just ugly and not at all what dressage is about. We are looking for willing partners that are made more beautiful. Not gorgeous horses made to work in unnatural and ugly positions, only to go in the ring and still not meet the exacting standards of our sport and yet be judged winners.

Then again, that JMO.

[torontodressage]

The FEI doesn't care. Remember the Flap about Coby van Balen and the pony at the Euro Championships last year or the year before. Both the Dutch Equestrian federation and the FEI investigated and nobody did one damn thing. It is true that the video in question in the Power and Paint (?) episode was shorter, but it was also shocking. And resulted in a pure whitewash.

Oh, and if anyone wants to contact the breeder whose farm name is attached to Scandic, it's Dr. Jan Greve, one of the most respected names in KWPN breeding and young horse brokering. His farm is Watermill, and he can be found on the internet.

What a ridiculous and wrong statement. The Dutch Equestrian Federation toke Coby and her student to court, but... van Baalen won the courtcase and the Dutch Equestrian Federation was even forced to publish this verdict in the press and on their own website. Please keep your "Internet Truth" for your own satisfiction only

[slc2]

My guess is that at least some discussions occur between the FEI and the 'offender' of various unwritten rules and sensibilities, that are not made public knowledge.

The horse presents a very, very interesting problem, because he looks like two halves of two somewhat different horses. I think that at the upper levels, a little bit of that has a big effect.

He has a very slow maturing look to him. A very lanky, soft backed fellow, and as supple as he can be in his hips, he is that much less supple and natural through his shoulders and neck and mouth.

In the young horse video, his balance is less than expected for the age, and he seems to get onto the forehand (relatively) and lack suppleness. It's a little bit fascinating seeing the young vs the older videos. Other than the overcadenced trot (which Kittel looks like he has corrected), his connection looks very firm, but something about it suggests he is a little too into the hand.

I think most trainers would conclude the horse needs much more suppleness, and I think whatever the trainer thinks will supple the horse he will get worked that way...a LOT.

[Forte]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and probably make myself very unpopular here. The video shows about a minute and 20 seconds of the horse's tongue hanging out before the rider stops and makes some adjustments. This is in slow motion, so probably in real life it was more like 30 seconds (Was anyone actually there who saw how long the tongue was out for?). Is it possible that the horse got it's tongue caught between the bits, then Patrick notices it and then leans down to free his tongue? He does ride him much lower and shorter in the neck that I would like. I do not like this type of riding or training. However, I'm not sure if him riding Scandic in that position is any more abusive than some of the adult amateur riders I see pounding on their horse's back in the sitting trot and yanking on their horse's mouth for lack of balance. I'm not trying to condone what this rider did. It's just bad riding and training, through and through. I'm just wondering if there might be another side to this story. I would not damn this rider just based on that short video clip. If I saw him ride like that every day, that would be a different story.

[canyonoak]

There is no answer to the questions about this video just as there is no answer to the question, 'When did you last hit your wife Mr. Brown?'

The warm-up arena is very crowded. Scandic is a breeding stallion. The actual time of the video--if you remove the slooowed-down parts is about 3 minutes.

The atmosphere at this show was electric enough that 3 riders had to pull out of the show arena during GP--2 out of the GP and one out of the kur.

You dont want to ride like that? Fine.

You want to tell everyone else how to ride?
Well, fine, but don't expect everyone else to agree with you.

[Velvet]

rodawn,

No one is taking this off topic. :rolleyes: They are definitely on topic if they are discussing the rollkur or the tongue.

[mbm]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and probably make myself very unpopular here. The video shows about a minute and 20 seconds of the horse's tongue hanging out before the rider stops and makes some adjustments. This is in slow motion, so probably in real life it was more like 30 seconds (Was anyone actually there who saw how long the tongue was out for?). Is it possible that the horse got it's tongue caught between the bits, then Patrick notices it and then leans down to free his tongue? He does ride him much lower and shorter in the neck that I would like. I do not like this type of riding or training. However, I'm not sure if him riding Scandic in that position is any more abusive than some of the adult amateur riders I see pounding on their horse's back in the sitting trot and yanking on their horse's mouth for lack of balance. I'm not trying to condone what this rider did. It's just bad riding and training, through and through. I'm just wondering if there might be another side to this story. I would not damn this rider just based on that short video clip. If I saw him ride like that every day, that would be a different story.


well, as has been stated before on this thread - the tongue out is not new for this horse. there is a vid on cpm24.tv at the median cup that shows this horse during a test wiht it all hanging out.

as for ammys - ahhh.... but don't you know... ammys get to do what they want with *their* horses..... dont dare tell them they have to qualify to move up etc. that is un-ammy and unamerican!


fwiw, i agree with you and think it is all on the same continuum.... it starts with beginners wanting to show way above their level - riding in sraw reins, yanking pulling, kicking with spurs, bouncing on backs - and ends with what you see in this vid - and worse.

we either advocate and speak up for the horse - and walk the walk - or we dont. period.

[Tiligsmom]

Did any of you read Canyonoak's post on Theo's site? WTF?!?!? Canyon...how can you say "Yayyy Patrik Kittel" ?!?!?!?

Quote from Canyonoak on Theo's site:

"well, there is no way to defend what is on the video in the same way that there is no way to answer the question, 'So when did you last hit your wife Mr. Brown?'

That said...the video is 4 1/2 minutes long, so no real idea how long he did/did not warm up this way. I'm not the one sitting on that stallion in a very crowded warm-up arena.
Is there anywhere proof that he warmed up this way for more than say, 20 minutes? As for the video-- over a minute of it is in clever slo-mo, so it is even shorter than it says.

Of course, classical Germans never have this problem--because they all just cut off part of the tongue. Or at least several have done so and I just assume others did it as well.

I don't know...I just am really reacting to the knee-jerk reaction of 9 thousand biddyboard people sending me the video and insisting that we all march on the castle with pitchhforks and slay the monster and rescue the little blind girl or whatever.

Interesting that the video-maker says she went to Kittel to ask him for a statement and he told her to send her questions and video to his lawyer and then they would get back to her.

Yayyy Patrik Kittel!"

[TheHorseProblem]

Confused here. Wasn't there another thread on this topic yesterday, and the video was an hour long?

[torontodressage]

My guess is that at least some discussions occur between the FEI and the 'offender' of various unwritten rules and sensibilities, that are not made public knowledge.

The horse presents a very, very interesting problem, because he looks like two halves of two somewhat different horses. I think that at the upper levels, a little bit of that has a big effect.

He has a very slow maturing look to him. A very lanky, soft backed fellow, and as supple as he can be in his hips, he is that much less supple and natural through his shoulders and neck and mouth.

In the young horse video, his balance is less than expected for the age, and he seems to get onto the forehand (relatively) and lack suppleness. It's a little bit fascinating seeing the young vs the older videos. Other than the overcadenced trot (which Kittel looks like he has corrected), his connection looks very firm, but something about it suggests he is a little too into the hand.

I think most trainers would conclude the horse needs much more suppleness, and I think whatever the trainer thinks will supple the horse he will get worked that way...a LOT.

Is there a reason why you post this on this forum. Are you afraid to play with the big guys :lol: who don't take your words for granted.

[Cowgirl]

Confused here. Wasn't there another thread on this topic yesterday, and the video was an hour long?

Here and elsewhere it is being represented that the ride went on for two hours like this, but what is shown is only about a total of 3 minutes, if you speed up the slow motion. That is the inherent problem every time one of these things comes up and there is an outcry: the evidence simply isn't good enough to convict for cruelty.

I suggest you all run to EponaTV, to better prepare yourselves, and demand that they put up the rest of the ride. If it is truly two hours of rollkur like this, it would be very good for you to have it. I suspect it is not, however EponaTV may get themselves in very hot legal water for having said it.

[torontodressage]

This whole thing stinks. When you go to Epona.tv you can read that this video was taken during the warmup for the GrandPrix Special. But since Patrik and Scandic participated in the CDI-W, they never rode a GPS. He rode the Grandprix (4th place) and the GP Freestyle to music (3th place).

Mrs Espona bring out the 2 hours footage, I donate the disc space and bandwidth to you. And NO I don't want to pay 10 US$ for a 30 day subsciption for watching the 5 videos you have online which btw are also
available on YouTube.

[Arathita]

Theo, this whole thing does not stink. The video is the video, and is representative of this horse's warm up. You know this is true as much as I do.

You can not deny that some riders ride like this throughout the warmup and throughout the home riding sessions. Some riders bring the horse's frame up only for competition. You also know this is true as well.

Many people do not agree with this type of riding. You can not tell them they are wrong although you seem to thrive from that. People more experienced than you do not like this kind of riding. You know this is true. So it is wrong for you and Canyon to come here and pretend that the posted opinons are "wrong". You might condone this kind of riding but many don't. It is a matter of personal opinion and ethics and definition of "dressage", and I applaud people for speaking up for what they believe in. I trust the people at the highest levels of the sport but I also trust the people who are not financially dependent on it. I believe the latter often have the clearer perspective.

[slc2]

I feel more and more that I can't entirely agree with either position here.

The report from Eurodressage indicates that astrid, a notoriously hard to please person, finds a HUGE improvement in this horse. The noseband has been changed, and the horse looks far, far improved.

I think there is improvement in this horse in the videos provided. The gastly overcadenced trot is gone, and the horse has lost its fixed, hard looking contact on the bit. While he looks like one of those very slow to develop horse he has much more muscle, especially in the back and hind quarter, in the more recent photos.

Why does this horse stick his tongue out? I think it's because he is such a slow-to-develop horse and went through such a long period of being immature. Muscle, suppleness, balance comes very slowly to this type of horse, I think. And yes, ,actually, I think he looks far better in the more recent clips. I am not sure there's anything else to do with this type of horse other than to just keep bringing him along, working to develop more muscle and suppleness.

What do non-hyperflexion type trainers do about lolling tongues? Well in the case of one admired trainer, unsubstantiated but oft repeated - the trainer had the horse's tongue cut OFF.

I am not so sure that's what either torontodressage or canyonoak are saying, actually, in regards to the previous post.

I''m not in full agreement with torontodressage, because to take his position it kind of seems I have to actively condone hyperflexion.

Theo always used to come here and insist that hyperflexion was ok because it was 'modern' and 'winning'.

That argument always struck me as - just very strange. In business, I have many times been told that MANY things are 'ok' because they are 'winning'. Intimidation, bullying, lying, getting rid of people who dissent, are 'modern' and 'winning'.

But nor do I agree with all the opinions of this video. No, it sucks, no mistake, but I think the accusations that the horses tongue is going to fall off are overdoing it. I think paula's statement that hyperflexion is MORE painful for a horse that lolls its tongue is incorrect. 'Well maybe his tongue hasn't fallen off, but his neck muscles get tired', I think that's illogical too. I think that if these horses really are ridden that way as much as these horses are supposed to be ridden in hyperflexion, the muscles get 'trained' to that position too. Yoga looks pretty ugly sometimes too, but someone who's done it for years and gradually increased the position, does not have pain either.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2306/2184295248_de7b766970.jpg&imgrefurl=http://yoga-photos.blogspot.com/2008/02/very-flexible-yoga-girl.html&usg=__qSwRDGawkSkadMVt3aRVlP6ZCrY=&h=500&w=333&sz=78&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=Q9tFDgZI7E7t0M:&tbnh=130&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dextreme%2Byoga%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26 sa%3DG

We have heard insistence for years fromm her that hyperflexion puts a horse BEHIND the bit and takes him off the connection. OKAY.....In that position there is by definition no pressure on the mouth. The FORCE, she tells us, is used to slap horsey back into position every time he attempts to get OUT of the position, as long as he is IN hyperflexion, he is, its detractors insist, entirely OFF the bit.

I've watched people teach horses to do hyperflexion. And I think the essential problem of it is that it does NOT take any force to produce it! It's simply far, far too easy.

Warming up for two hours?

Ever been to Quarter Horse Congress?

Lots of horses stick their tongues out of their mouths.

I followed a hunt on foot many years ago, and at just about every view, which would cover about half a day, I saw a child's pony on a lead line, with his furry little face in his chest and his tongue lolling out and just the same color. The horses 'worked' for four hours, not two, most of it at a vigorous trot and gallop, and yes, frankly, at least a few with chin on chest because they wanted to get into the master's pocket. Oh that's different. That's fox hunting. 'That's ok, the horses are FIT, that's what they DO, they LOVE IT'. Scandic probably spent four years getting FIT, with increasing ride times, Eurociser sessions and hacks under working students. I see no indication of exhaustion in Scandic. He isn't even sweating. The 'two hours' appears to consist of periods of walking, trotting and cantering. The horse isn't even flaring his nostrils, let alone sweating.

We had a school horse at a barn named Dusty who went through every single lesson every single day, usually two one hour lessons in a row a day if not more, with his tongue flopping out of his mouth, and well, not so different in color from this and certainly not any prettier. I found it absolutely repellant, and even as I kid I knew the old classical rule, 'ride your horse's tongue into his mouth'. Yet the habit was so entrenched even the best rider there could not 'ride Dusty's tongue into his mouth'. The little sweetheart made a monkey out of everyone.

Dusty did this every day I saw Dusty for the entire eight years I was at the barn. The owner/manager/instructor was one of the top instructors in the area, with fifty years in instructing, training, playing polo, driving, foxhunting and doing dressage and combined training. Dusty had acquired this habit as a youngster and there simply wasn't anything to change it. There was never any harm done to that horse's tongue.

No one was reacting to these the way they are reacting here to Scandic. Let me emphasize again I don't think any of this makes hyperflexion a desirable or attractive training feature. I don't like it, I spent a good long time searching up a trainer who doesn't do that.

But I don't think the reaction helps to get rid of it, either.

Scandic may stick his tongue out of his mouth, and he may spend a long part of his warmup in a very hyperflexed position, but I think those who are screaming that his tongue is going to fall off are ... well ... wrong. This is something that has been going on a long time, and this horse's tongue has not been injured. It looks perfectly smooth and normal.

I am not in favor of extreme positioning of horses. But I think the extreme reaction to this is - just another extreme reaction. And to be perfectly honest, I think these reactions actually LESSEN the chances of getting rid of hyperflexion. Polarization makes change LESS likely, not more. I think with the extreme reaction, the anti-hyperflexionist are, well, biting off their own tongues. The hysterical protests sent to the organization - these have been going on for a very long time. Riders have even received death threats. This has not brought about any big changes. Polarization never, ever does.

[EiRide]

I showed the video to two people that I thought would have very different perspectives than mine.

My office mate, who is a bright guy, likes animals, doesn't know tons about them, looked at the video over my shoulder (not the tongue out part) and asked me "Why does that guy hate his horse so much?"; this is the same office mate who calls the Western pleasure horses "droopy looking." He can't quite figure out in either case why someone would take a beautiful animal and make it ugly (his words).

[Arathita]

Here and elsewhere it is being represented that the ride went on for two hours like this, but what is shown is only about a total of 3 minutes, if you speed up the slow motion. That is the inherent problem every time one of these things comes up and there is an outcry: the evidence simply isn't good enough to convict for cruelty.

I suggest you all run to EponaTV, to better prepare yourselves, and demand that they put up the rest of the ride. If it is truly two hours of rollkur like this, it would be very good for you to have it. I suspect it is not, however EponaTV may get themselves in very hot legal water for having said it.


That is what inquiry will uncover.

There are two inherent problems in this situation. One: "an outcry where the evidence simply isn't good enough to convict for cruelty". It the outcry results in an inquiry that proves that people are overreacting, so be it. People learn that they are overreacting. Riders know that they are being evaluated and held to FEI-level WRITTEN standards. Two: Complacent people who begin to believe that riding chin-to-chest is the way to produce FEI dressage horses. TDs become complacent, and we all know that few challenge riders for fear of not being asked back. Judges become complacent because of fear of not being asked back. Riders realize that chin-to-chest is a way to ribbons and their livelihood depends on ribbons. The sport becomes less about horses and more about money/winning.

This horse has a tongue problem. What does that tell you? That he was so expensive that it is necessary for him to show despite his contact problem? If this was seen in an amateur ride these same people who defend this riding would condemn the amateur rider for ruining such a talented horse. If this same problem was seen under an American rider these same people would use this as an example of poor American training.

Any way you cut it, someone is complaining. Let the complaints come to fruition and let us see who is right.

[mbm]

Here and elsewhere it is being represented that the ride went on for two hours like this, but what is shown is only about a total of 3 minutes, if you speed up the slow motion. That is the inherent problem every time one of these things comes up and there is an outcry: the evidence simply isn't good enough to convict for cruelty.

I suggest you all run to EponaTV, to better prepare yourselves, and demand that they put up the rest of the ride. If it is truly two hours of rollkur like this, it would be very good for you to have it. I suspect it is not, however EponaTV may get themselves in very hot legal water for having said it.

hmmmm..... does your video camera run on batteries for 2 hours? mine doesnt. or, what about if your tape is already mostly used up and you only catch a few minutes. does it mean that what you were filming didnt really happen?

in other words: is it real only if it is caught on tape?

i *hope* that someone was able to film a lot of this (and other) rides.... but i wont condemn them if they didn't....

and, it clearly would not be hard to prove one way or another how long his ride was - there are PLENTY of peopel there that could say one way or another....

and anyway - why would eponatv lie? what good would it do them?

what would your suggestion be for someone who is witnessing this and doesn't have a 2 hour battery of only a few minutes of tape?

[Joanne]

Canyonoak said: "Of course, classical Germans never have this problem--because they all just cut off part of the tongue. Or at least several have done so and I just assume others did it as well."

Wow, I've never heard of that. Can you share the names?

(Edited to change the name of the original poster.)

[Tiligsmom]

Tligsmom said: "Of course, classical Germans never have this problem--because they all just cut off part of the tongue. Or at least several have done so and I just assume others did it as well."

Wow, I've never heard of that. Can you share the names?

Re-read my post!!! I NEVER SAID THAT. It was a quote from Canyonoak!

[Joanne]

Thank you very much for the correction. I have now edited my question to reflect the proper person.

[EiRide]

Ya know . . . slow to mature means slow the f*** down with the horse, not work it in ways that cause it to loll the tongue out of the mouth.

I've been riding for 37 yrs and I have never had a horse with any sort of tongue problem. I've never in my life stuck a tongue back in the mouth, for crying out loud, and people who claim to be my intense superior as horsepersons should not do this either. I've rehabbed plenty of horses, some with mouth problems. First remove the stress that causes the issue, then slowly build back a good mouth. You don't tie it down, strap it in, or stuff it back.

The whole thing is sick making.

[TheHorseProblem]

Canyonoak said: "Of course, classical Germans never have this problem--because they all just cut off part of the tongue. Or at least several have done so and I just assume others did it as well."


I once was very interested in buying a horse who happened to loll his tongue. I asked a German trainer I clinicked with what he thought of the issue, and he told me that some people have the tongue amputated because it costs them so many points in the show ring. So while I've never heard of it here, according to this German it was an accepted remedy.

[slc2]

I'm surprised some have not heard of this.

Over many years, I've often heard American dressage trainers accused of doing same. I repeatedly heard one prominent American trainer accused of this - not a transplanted European, not a hyperflexionist/rollkurist, a very traditional trainer.

The front of the tongue is cut off. The horse still can swallow and eat normally. There still is tongue under the bits.

I've heard too of situations in which a horse caught his tongue on barb wire or other hazards and have lacerated the tongue and had to have the front of the tongue amputated and stitched up, too. I don't think it's at all unusual for horses to injure or cut their tongues.

[J-Lu]

I'm surprised some have not heard of this.

Over many years, I've often heard American dressage trainers accused of doing same. I repeatedly heard one prominent American trainer accused of this - not a transplanted European, not a hyperflexionist/rollkurist.

The front of the tongue is cut off. The horse still can swallow and eat normally.

I've heard too of situations in which a horse caught his tongue on barb wire or other hazards and have lacerated the tongue and had to have the front of the tongue amputated and stitched up, too. I don't think it's at all unusual for horses to injure or cut their tongues.

Who has actually done this? I have never heard of nor seen someone cutting the horse's tongue nor have I ever known of a horse who has injured his own tongue in all of my years around horses.

[slc2]

I don't know, and I'm not going to name the person I heard accused of it.

I have heard many accusations of it over the years, but have not actually walked in on anyone in the act of having it done. I'm not convinced that it has never been done; in any case, I'd be unlikely to be invited to such a thing. Nobody invites a tree-hugger to a deforestation.

In any case, with tongue injuries supposedly common, I'm not sure how anyone would know whether the horse had been injured or it had been done purposely because of a riding issue.

[meupatdoes]

I followed a hunt on foot many years ago,

Slick gold.
:lol:

[slc2]

what's wrong with following a hunt on foot, meupatyous? Some people followed in cars, at least I was getting some exercise. I was a kid without a pony.

[Cowgirl]

First of all, there are six and eight hour camera batteries. If you are a professional doing this, or even if you are just someone with a cause, you make sure you have big batteries.

"is it real only if it is caught on tape?"

There couldn't be a more stupid question. Of course it can be real. A bear does crap in the woods even if you don't see it. BUT, if you are making accusations that can ruin a career, and if you want rules made to prohibit certain practices, you must have evidence. I am trying to HELP you here. I highly doubt that what he's doing for three minutes would constitute abuse under any country's laws.

Instead of spending so much energy beating chests, why not develop a body of evidence so that your cause can succeed?

Go read the definitions of animal cruelty around the world. Read the laws. You have to support your claims. We live in a country where animals are transported to stock yards that smell of death and allowed to scream in terror for days before their own death. I'm sorry, but 3 minutes without blood spilled doesn't do it. Two hours of subjugation might do it though...who knows.

[shalomypony]

I agree,totally sickening.I do have one question though,what's up with the front bandages????Why do they raise an alarm in my gut as well............perhaps weighted?After looking at that video nothing would suprise me.

[slc2]

This is my point too cowgirl. Read the laws of the land. It reveals why this is such a bad situation.

[JumpItHighPie]

I'd like to stick that guy's pen** between those bits.


HAHAHAHAHA!

[outofthebox]

Write to FEI and complain.... If they are flooding with emails at least they know we are watching! http://www.fei.org/Search_Centre/Pages/Contact.aspx

[egontoast]

You don't need the "laws of the land" or laws relating to animal abuse to deal with whatever is deemed to be abusive training on the show grounds.

For training on the show grounds, it can be dealt with in the Rules, obviously, but the Rules would need to be more clear and provide better direction on these issues so the TD knows when to intervene.

I think they already started down that road but it fizzled.

It's not an easy issue to address because there will be a continuum, as with use of whip and spur- at what point must TD step in. it leaves an awful lot of discretion to the TD who must also be seen as being fair to everyone.

[torontodressage]

I think the main problem is that the most of the posters on this forum were born while Internet was already up and running. There is no footage from the warmup and training of the OD(D)G's. Almost every poster over here is blindly following the words that these OD(D)G's have written in their books. Books with words and statements that have become a religion for this Cyberspace generation. Today we see a huge gap between the professional riders (who don't have much time to spend on the internet) and the "around the BBQ riders" who seem to have tons of time to ride their keyboards. Millions of horses are ruined by this Cyberspace generation, but the biggest problem is that they all are convinced that they have the "wisdom, knowledge and background" to point their fingers at the top-riders and horses of this era.

Canyonoak has made a statement which is 100% right and true, however it's against the religion of the majority of the posters on this forum. Because "it was all different and better in the old day's" . Why ?.... because the books said so. But did anyone over here talked to the Olympians from the older days and asked them how it all went in those days. Ofcourse not, because these kind of stories will blow their bubble. The truth however is that in "the old days" it was much worser than today <period>.

[slc2]

"In the old days it was much worse than today"

Gee, I hate to criticize the ideas suggested in the previous post but, well, let's begin :)

I think that's absolute and complete rot. But I think the 'Old Dead Guys were Perfect' is ALSO baloney.

I think it was exactly the same.

The issues were slightly different, but riding and competing in dressage ALWAYS creates issues and controversies. Read 'The Horseman's Companion' for a rather eye-opening look at the early years of the FEI and organizing competition.

No, the Old Dead Guys were not perfect either. They had faults, their performances had faults. Plenty of them.

I think if most of you looked at some older movies from the 60's, 50's, 40's, 30's and 20's, and were told it was a poor quality video of a regional show of a month ago, you'd be screaming about horses with an inverted topline, unsteady hands, poor seats and fussy, irregular horses.

But I see no way to suggest today is BETTER. I see no overall improvement. SOME things are better, some are worse, some are just different.

The HORSES, the horses are BETTER? No, not really, not a great deal. The same thing today was in the past - some horses very upright and 'collectible' and some much more 'power horses', both having their own typical issues.

And if the truth be told, the press and the rail jockeys complained just as bitterly about Reiner Klimke's riding as people today complain about Kittel and Jansen and Van Grunsven. The chit chat about him was absolutely shocking, to be sure. Klimke was accused of brutalizing Entertainer, working horses for HOURS, being 'too demanding', and all of everything else that OTHER riders are accused of today.

ANYTHING, no matter how minor, was grist for the mill. And it went on and on and on.

Klimke said himself, that Linsenoff had the best knowledge. He put her above himself in that department. And today you can watch her videos, and as long as you don''t know who she is or what Klimke said about her, you'd most likely be saying, GAWD, what is she doing.

We see what we think we should see, not what is. That's why people get so worked up about 'today' vs 'the good old days'.

In the 'good old days' there were lots and lots of very long warmups, horses warmed up with their chin on the rider's knee (do you REALLY believe overpositioning of horses is a brand new issue? Come ON, 90% of the 'anti rollkurists' beating their chests today were out there tearing around, bending the horse's nose to their knee, and had just as lengthy a warmup), drugs were given to horses, old horses were shown at the end of their career, young horses were rushed along....

Do young people today really believe every problem in the world was invented since they were born? Does anyone older actually look back on the days of their youth as 'the time when everything was ok'?

Every young person has a tendency to think the problems of his day are new and never happened before.

And every older person tends to wax lyrical about 'the good old days' when he had a less discerning eye and he thought the heroes of his youth were perfect.

The conversations that now take place on the internet, then took place along the rail, in the tack room, and in the barn lounge. There's always been a 'knowledgeable audience' having hysterics about what 'those other people' are doing. It's human nature.

Further, people 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 and more years ago were just as driven by money and time as they are today. The issues have always been remarkably the same, even back to hundreds of years ago in royal riding schools for the kings, in the state run schools that produced the early national teams...everywhere. Why do you think Baucher developed an under six months training program for the Grand Prix horse a hundred and twenty years ago?

[dwblover]

It is NOT acceptable to cut off the blood supply to a horse's tongue. Not now, not in the old days, not in a classical barn, not in a competition barn. I do agree that some people get really carried away with the old, classical trainers and believe that no one since their time can ride a horse without abusing it. I'm not in that camp, but I still am sickened by that video. What if that horse suffers permanent damage to his tongue and is unable to eat? That blue tissue is going to turn black one day and there will be no going back after that. Someone already quoted a eurodressage article about this happening another time, so it's not a one-time mistake. That makes it disgusting.:(

[nhwr]

I use a satellite internet connection and sometimes video play back quality is not the best but here is what I saw;

A horse being ridden in a non classical manner (horrors!) with it tongue out (unattractive), rider stops to make an adjustment (maybe he shoves the tongue back in as some here said or maybe he adjusts the noseband. I couldn't tell) and goes back to non classical riding method. The tongue looked a bit hypoxic, but I don't know what the normal tongue color of a working horse is so I am can't judge that with any certainty.
Is it abusive to ride a horse with its tongue out? hmmm I don't know. Horses put their tongues out because of tension, IME. Is it abusive to ride a tense horse?

So a not pretty video at all but abuse?
I can't conclusively say so.

[dwblover]

I don't think it's abuse to ride a tense horse. I don't think it's abuse to ride a horse with it's pink tongue out of its mouth. But when the tongue turns blue because it is no longer receiving adequate blood flow? Yeppers, that's abuse in my book.

[slc2]

So the pink color shown on the tongue would be....?

Doesn't the top of the tongue always lose its pink color when a horse puts it out of his mouth for any length of time, because the capillaries constrict from the air?

[Bogey2]

indyblue asked

Theo.Do you like what you see in the video?Is it something you see often at the events you go to?

did theo get banned before he answered this good question? I am sure he will be back (under another name of course) and I hope he answers this.

[bean]

indyblue asked



did theo get banned before he answered this good question? I am sure he will be back (under another name of course) and I hope he answers this.

Torontodressage's user profile says that s/he is "activating profile", so I am sure s/he will be back on line...shortly.

[Velvet]

You just might want to be a little bit more careful before making such amazingly broad assumptions/statements. You could (and did, in this case) end up with your own foot in your mouth--or even two.

Many of the people out here have been around for a long time and have ridden with, trained with, and studied with former Olympic riders and even Chef d'equippes. While there have and always will be shameful practices in all horse sports, for a short time we had begun to move beyond things as unnatural as this type of "training" (I have a hard time considering it training). The problem right now is that it's currently not perceived as one person's method--it's becoming considered the ONLY method to use if you want to win. And if non-horse people are seeing this and are horrified or disgusted, then you know that if WE dressage riders don't do something, the sport will be tarnished. And with the extremist and rabid animal rights people out there, if they see this--there is a very real chance we'll loose parts of our sport that make it something we all love. Take one look at what they did to fox hunting, and how they have put eventing on their radar.

Get an education in the bigger picture. If you seriously believe that it's ONLY newbies and people who are uneducated in the ways of dressage who are up in arms--just stop and think about how the truly non-horse people will see this. That should scare you straight.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by torontodressage:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the main problem is that the most of the posters on this forum were born while Internet was already up and running. There is no footage from the warmup and training of the OD(D)G's. Almost every poster over here is blindly following the words that these OD(D)G's have written in their books. Books with words and statements that have become a religion for this Cyberspace generation. Today we see a huge gap between the professional riders (who don't have much time to spend on the internet) and the "around the BBQ riders" who seem to have tons of time to ride their keyboards. Millions of horses are ruined by this Cyberspace generation, but the biggest problem is that they all are convinced that they have the "wisdom, knowledge and background" to point their fingers at the top-riders and horses of this era.

Canyonoak has made a statement which is 100% right and true, however it's against the religion of the majority of the posters on this forum. Because "it was all different and better in the old day's" . Why ?.... because the books said so. But did anyone over here talked to the Olympians from the older days and asked them how it all went in those days. Ofcourse not, because these kind of stories will blow their bubble. The truth however is that in "the old days" it was much worser than today <period>.

Wow, this is the biggest load of crap I've seen on the CoTH board yet.

You have a video of a horse with his tongue hanging LIMPLY out of his mouth and swinging in cadence to his gait and you think this is good horsemanship?

I could view this in black and white and know that there was an ORGAN FAILING. I guess the modern training techniques are far superior to those of the ODGs and keeping the horse's chin cranked to his chest while in a DOUBLE BRIDLE with a LIMPLY flopping tongue is perfectly acceptable.

[Tiligsmom]

As usual, Theo draws the attention to himself with his inflammatory statements vs. discussing the issue at hand :rolleyes:

The issue at hand is that a horse is being ridden around an arena, nose to chest, tongue hanging out - limp and blue. The tongue is pushed back in and the ride continues with nose to chest riding.

If the ODGuys did this, then shame on them! What we DO know is that this rider, Patrik Kittel did do this. For this rider and this horse during this ride - I consider this ABUSIVE. I'm not painting the entire Dutch world or other riders or other times with this same assessment. For this rider, this horse, this ride, I DO deem this Abuse and DO feel compelled to name it and stop it.

[Leena]

I could not watch it to the end either...Made me real sick...

I agree with other posters 's comments..That is all about money..

[Go Fish]

The lawyer in me just has to ask this question: have any of you personally inspected this horse's tongue when he wasn't being ridden?

[bean]

The lawyer in me just has to ask this question: have any of you personally inspected this horse's tongue when he wasn't being ridden?



We are not talking about a "chow" dog!
I am unaware of horses born with blue tongues.
"Blue" would suggest that these is lack of bloodflow...and THAT usually entails some sort of "help".

[Cowgirl]

In my state, for the officials to get involved in a horse abuse case, the horse has to be severely underweight or have toes curled around, or be covered in blood or burns. They will not get involved for a lolling blue tongue. Sorry, but that is a fact.

The FEI has no definition of what consitutes abuse and what constitutes animal welfare. Most likely, they would have to look at the law of the country where the rider comes from, and I guarantee that rollkur would not fall within any country's current definition of abuse.

Your first step should be to capture enough video to get the FEI to define abuse within their organization. This must be clear to all participants, otherwise they have to look to the law of their nation in order to avoid being sued for defamation of character. If you allow the FEI to leave it undefined, you will end up in the same place.

[Go Fish]

I am unaware of horses born with blue tongues.

Actually, you are wrong. Not entirely blue/black, but some combination of both pink and mottled colors.

[bean]

Actually, you are wrong. Not entirely blue/black, but some combination of both pink and mottled colors.


I never used the words:

entirely.
mottled.

Nor did i mention the "shade" or "coverage" of blue.


The lawyer in you is grasping at straws...

[sidepasser]

And perhaps the horse has some Chow mixed in...they have blueish/black tongues. Somehow I don't believe that though.

I am not a "every one abuses their horse" nor do I fall into the dressage riders of Olympic caliber abuse their horse camp either. Perhaps some do and some don't.

I did not find the ride appealing, I thought the horse was cranked down and looked to me like the lolling tongue was a problem. Horse didn't look 'happy" going along like some horses do.

It's like porn - I may not be able to define it, but "I" know it when I see it. I talked to my trainer about this video this morning, personally I find the hyperflexion of horses cruel, but that is my feeling about that. It reminded me too much of certain trainers who tie up western pleasure horses heads to the rafters so that they are so sore they can't lift their heads. It just seems to me that a horse ridden in a cranked down position would get sore as well. To me, and in my opinion, that is abusive or at the very least, taking advantage of a horse's generous nature.

I like dressage and I love my lessons each week. My horse is just starting to stay on the bit and have a vertical line to her face, she isn't ridden "cranked in" and she has the highest point of break over at the poll, not down the neck somewhere else. She can see where we are going. She doesn't look at the ground, her ears are up.

It has taken a little more than a year to get to this point and no, she can't maintain it for a long time, but every week, we build just a little more on asking for her to go forward, rear to front, and accept the contact. It seems to be working, and her tongue stays in her mouth though she is now starting to slobber everywhere when ridden.

I think I will stick with what is working - the long, slow, building block method to get my horse where she carries herself forward willingly and has her ears up and looks happy. It takes a lot longer this way, but I've got all the time in the world.

Perhaps these big name riders don't have all the time in the world so must rush things by creating artificial means to get the same result.

In any event, the video was not appealing to me, I would not go specifically to watch this rider on this particular horse. I'd rather watch the novices with their horses, ears up, watching where they go and just learning what they are supposed to do. Much better show in my opinion.

[slc2]

Geneva, why are those statements so pricelessly ignorant?

[ridergal63]

who owns this stallion now? he was and may still be owned by jan greve
of watermolen stud or he may have been sold. does anyone know? i saw
this horse at reesink last october. he is the grandson of a mare i owned
and at that time, he was really impressive, but i saw him on display.
how sad that he is being ridden and trained like this. i think the owner,
trainer, and rider should have the oxygen cut off to their tongues. too
many of these dressage horses are ridden very roughly, here and abroad.

[Plumcreek]

When I was in my teens on the West Coast in the 60's, I soaked up dressage in person from several "Old Dead Guys", Americans and Europeans, with Olympic medals. I never once heard any reference at all to training in anything but the classical dressage frame, and time, time. As I remember, back then the goal was to be a good horseman and people would know, now the goal is to Win and clients will come.

[Calliope]

Probably I'm as dumb as a box of bricks, but I can't see a list of sponsors on the website, or an email contact (appart from the legal ones in the Impressum page, and they are required on German websites).

I wonder if these have been removed due to the number of people compaining?


(Or am I just unable to use the internets?)

[Plumcreek]

Greed and the substitution of learned helplessness for true submission is the only reason for this. Trainers who want a horse dead broke no matter what the riding style do this to sell horses to impatient,stupid riders. The higher the quality of horse produced the more careful one has to be with whom you let ride train or buy them.

Long term problems of training or lameness are not usually a concern for people who change horses like underwear, and only care about marketing a horse short term especially if an important competition coincides with a sale possibility.


Boy, does this sum it up.

Write the big check, then sit still and don't touch nothin'. So exactly where does one go these days to be able to stand by the warm up ring of a major competition (of any discipline) and watch in awe, not horror ???

[Roan]

Probably I'm as dumb as a box of bricks, but I can't see a list of sponsors on the website, or an email contact (appart from the legal ones in the Impressum page, and they are required on German websites).

I wonder if these have been removed due to the number of people compaining?


(Or am I just unable to use the internets?)

Sponsors for the FEI World Games:

http://www.alltechfeigames.com/about/sponsors.aspx?id=86&ekmensel=c580fa7b_8_12_86_4

Eileen

[narcisco]

perhaps the Steward will react once the horse's tongue falls off
__________________

Oh, no, don't even suggest it. Trainers will be lopping off horses' tongues anytime a tongue hangs out, just like they started cutting the nerves to the tails to stop swishing.

The only problem is, I think tongues can regenerate, at least in part.

[MistyBlue]

Doesn't the top of the tongue always lose its pink color when a horse puts it out of his mouth for any length of time, because the capillaries constrict from the air?

It doesn't seem to happen during surgeries or dentistry.
Dentistry:
http://www.anaes.med.usyd.edu.au/images/ACVA/speculum_in_horse.jpg
Surgery:
http://www.hotequineclinic.com/Photos/TrashsSurgery_8_.JPG

Pink tongues outside the mouth for extended priods of time. ;)

[S A McKee]

[QUOTE=slc2;4457298

Further, people 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 and more years ago were just as driven by money and time as they are today. The issues have always been remarkably the same, even back to hundreds of years ago in royal riding schools for the kings, in the state run schools that produced the early national teams...everywhere. Why do you think Baucher developed an under six months training program for the Grand Prix horse a hundred and twenty years ago?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but just because something was 'wrong' a long time ago doesn't mean it should continue. Past bad behavior is not justification for continuing a bad system.
Society evolves and sets new standards of behavior constantly.
No reason why training standards shouldn't change too.

[Kyzteke]

People are surely aware of race horses and their tongue's being tied. Now it is more in fashion to use drop nosebands and figure eight's but again we have a tongue issue.


Not that I approve of that either, but a racehorse has his tongue tied in the paddock just before the race and it's untied (actually usually cut off by the groom because that knot is pretty tight after all that spit is soaked up) AS SOON as the horse returns to winner's circle. So even for the longest race it might be on 5-8 minutes max. And as a former racetracker, I can vouch that I've never seen a horse's tongue be blue...dark red, yes. Blue...no.

But I really don't see the tongue as the worst issue. Granted, it's bad enough -- but holding a horse's head in that position for 90 minutes is sheer torture. But see how many of you guys LIKED THE RIDE!! Apparently the judges liked the ride as well.:confused::cry:

WHY? I'm honestly asking here because I am honest-to-goodness mystified.

I'm apparently one of the few that did NOT like the ride and never have liked the "style" of Anky, et al (and I'm not bashing Anky personally -- never met her, sure she loves her dog, her children & her mother...she probably even thinks she loves her horses...) from the first moment I saw one of her rides, but I am obviously in the very small minority.

The test/ride is always a result of the training....that will never change in ANY school of horsemanship....from Big Lick to reining to halter to modern dressage. So perhaps it's time to ask ourselves WHY the end result appeals to our eye so much and WHY the judges keep rewarding it.

Believe me, you don't need white armbands or product boycott to stop this crap...it's far more simple than that.

The only thing that needs to happen is that the end result -- the sort of test this type of training produces -- needs to stop winning competitions. Period. It's no more complicated than that.

Again, we need to ask ourself WHY it has gone this far.....

[egontoast]

Trainers will be lopping off horses' tongues anytime a tongue hangs out

Well, according to slc this is has been commonly done by trainers in the US of A for years but, if you read a little closer, she has no first hand knowledge of this, it was only rumours, so maybe it's just urban legend or gossip.

I'm surprised some have not heard of this.

Over many years, I've often heard American dressage trainers accused of doing same. I repeatedly heard one prominent American trainer accused of this - not a transplanted European, not a hyperflexionist/rollkurist.

The front of the tongue is cut off. The horse still can swallow and eat normally.



We all know people who assume every scar on their horse was caused by some horrible abuse by the former owner or trainer. Don't believe everything you hear, even if it is from slc second or third hand with no names only nudge nudge say no more.

Get the facts. Slc- get the footage and the photos if you want to make wild accusations about all these trainers who are cutting off tongues.

[MistyBlue]

well it would keep the horse from talking back/being sassy if you removed some of the tongue, wouldn't it?
Or at least keep it from tattling on you?

[seeuatx]

Egadds. I never expected to see anything like that in my life. :no:

Question, though. I remember from a conformation class that there is a certain clearance at the throatlatch that allows a horse to comfortably give at the poll. A horse with less clearance (x fingers worth, now I forget) could experience difficulty breathing as the jaw could press into the airway. So my question is, in this case with the hyperflexion, is the curb cutting off circulation to the tongue, or could the over bending be pressing the jaw back into the airway? I would assume that either could cause a blue tongue... and obviously either makes a BIG case against hyperflexion, but I'm just curious.

If it is cutting air supply, no wonder hyperflexion can appear to make some of these horse quieter... they can't breathe. :no:

[Velvet]

Boy, does this sum it up.

Write the big check, then sit still and don't touch nothin'. So exactly where does one go these days to be able to stand by the warm up ring of a major competition (of any discipline) and watch in awe, not horror ???

This is made all the more amazing in a sport where there are no big purse/pay off classes. :no:

[RougeEmpire]

This is made all the more amazing in a sport where there are no big purse/pay off classes. :no:

Does boggle the mind doesn't it.....

[Fixerupper]

no dog in this fight but...when you're making up horror stories to support your point....you're losing :lol:

[Mardi]

Did I see right that he stopped to shove the horse's tongue back in it's mouth?

It appeared that the tongue was over the bit.

Anyway, that method of riding is very similar to what one sees at Arabian shows in the warm up ring for western classes. It's identical. Dressage is not alone.

[Mardi]

Again, we need to ask ourself WHY it has gone this far.....

Because the warm ups aren't judged. And until they are, it will keep happening.

[Charmb]

And what scares me, is that this what we wish to raise horses for? To get to this level, and receive this kind of treatment? And we complain about PMU, Horse Racing and other horse related activities, with some supreme agitators it gets bad press...etc...but if you win a gold, represent a country, etc. the powers that be turn a blind eye? Egads...these are countries that don't even want to have horses branded...hello. All out of wack in my mind. Love the shipping boots they used to protect the front legs for schooling. Maybe the European way, ISN'T the way, not if these are their ways. There has been talk by top ranked American trainers that it isn't right, etc. but obviously talking to us doesn't change it in Europe. So, when you rush out to buy that nice horse in Europe again, maybe you need to peel back a few layers and really look at the person you are buying from, their trainer, their methods, and come on back home. I would also note, that I videod Bejiing...and there is questions in my mind about present day scoring methodology. Brilliant then bad often does take you out of the top scores, as 4 and 9, etc...you do the math. But at Bejiing I occassionally had a problem matching layperson scores with what was put on the scoreboard, and so did others I know. Hopefully the web will help to put a new "light" on this type of schooling, etc. Congratulations to all who speak out, and the discussion has brought knowledge about a lot of things I hope, for many. Thanks again to Epona.TV as well for not being afraid to publish the negative behaviours of icon riders.

[Arathita]

This is made all the more amazing in a sport where there are no big purse/pay off classes. :no:

No purse/pay off classes but much much much MORE money in sales, training and clinics. Do you really wonder why people do this?

[Fixerupper]

When it stops winning..they'll stop doing it ;)

(and when when you own a horse that competes at that level you can hire a rider/trainer that doesn't use that method....very simple really... get all the like minded people to buy the nice horses and change the dressage world....or maybe just get everybody together and end world hunger ???)

[Velvet]

:sigh: No, I do not wonder when people pay a fortune for some aspects of this sport, but it IS still amazing that abuse and criminal behavior are happening so frequently in this sport when there is NOT (more often than not) a pay out in classes. I would expect to see this more often in sports like show jumping, or even in the reining world.

That was the point. :sigh:

No purse/pay off classes but much much much MORE money in sales, training and clinics. Do you really wonder why people do this?

[Fixerupper]

criminal behavior

????
they're gonna have to build more prisons!!

[Brooklyn]

Moral of the story -- the FEI doesn't consider it abuse if:
* everyone else does it and
* you can score in the 70s.

[Fixerupper]

You have it skewed:

- The FEI doesn't consider it abuse

but...
- not everyone does it
- not everyone who scores in the 70's does it
- not everyone who does it scores in the 70's

:)

[Kyzteke]

Because the warm ups aren't judged. And until they are, it will keep happening.

Again, I have to politely disagree.

The training produces to ride/test. The warm-up is just a micro-pic of the training.

So WHY does the ride/test look so appealing to people? The horse is stiff, there is little expression (mostly because they are in a total a choke hold), ankles are flopping all over the place, seats are bouncing, aids are over-exaggerated --- yet these rides are getting record-breaking scores.

WTF???? WHY??

[sidepasser]

It appeared that the tongue was over the bit.

Anyway, that method of riding is very similar to what one sees at Arabian shows in the warm up ring for western classes. It's identical. Dressage is not alone.

That doesn't mean that it is a good thing though - it makes one revert back to middle school days when a kid is caught doing something and tries to weasel out of it by saying "well Susie does it too".

Doesn't change the fact that it is wrong. Just like old WP trainers who tied up horses heads to sore them so they wouldn't raise their heads during a show - just cause they did it doesn't make it right.

It is supposed to be about the HORSE. Not the "winning, ribbons, fame, fortune, ego or how much can we get for Super Plug when he wins this show". I think some where along the line the horse has become the tool to satisfy the rider, trainer and politicos in sport.

And that is just plain wrong. Doesn't matter what discipline one rides, the horse should be the priority and it's well being should be considered first.

I'm no expert in dressage- never said I was, but even *I* understand and can see that a horse cranked in like that with a blue tongue hanging out like a chow dog is NOT RIGHT. I don't care how many buttons, bows and butterflies one tries to coat it in..it doesn't make it right. No ribbon or accolade would be enough to make it right in my book. Neither would the rider, the trainer, the association, the judges or stewards who turn a blind eye to this sort of thing. I think deep down people know right from wrong, however, many try to justify the wrong by reasoning it away. Like saying "it's ok, the horse was only ridden for a few minutes this way"..it is still wrong. A minute being held underwater can be just as frightening as being held under for two minutes - neither is likely to drown a person, but both can cause mental and physical pain. Does it make it right to say well it was only for a minute? No. Never. Too bad people use rationalization to make wrongs appear to be "ok" or right. And yes, I'm preaching because some wrongs don't leave visible scars, but they do leave scars just the same. The scars here may be a horse that just gives up, becomes spiritless, or becomes resentful and mean. He could have long term damage to his windpipe, his tongue - neither which can be "seen" but still can be there. It can also mean fewer people want to do dressage reducing the numbers of backers for shows or entries or perhaps increase the number of trail riders.

Mardi - not slamming you or saying you think this is ok..just using your point to illustrate mine.

[Plumcreek]

I am reading all this with a real sense of de-ja vu. This is EXACTLY the struggle the caring horsemen in the breed show world faced for a decade of the abusive low head frames winning big in Western Pleasure and Hunter Under Saddle. The warm up rings (especially in the wee hours of the morning) were painful to watch. Despite their best intentions, the AQHA (as group leader) was unable to influence enough to stop it from a "bad thing to do" standpoint.

What DID stop the worst examples (not 100% gone, but waaay better) was simply the AQHA Executive Committee reading their own rule book. The rules were there in plain text for all to see - that horses with ear tips below level of withers (aka peanut rollers) were to be disqualified. The Exec Committee just needed to be publically reminded that, while they expected exhibitors and members to follow the rules, judges were not. Thankfully, they had the cajones to threaten loss of judges cards if the judging did not change to follow the rulebook standards.

This turnaround in group thinking has spawned side benefits that could directly relate to this dressage issue: For the first time, a breed show BNT was recently suspended for abuse (broken jaw and pus-filled spur holes in sides) that took place at his HOME BARN and was fully documented and prosecuted by the horse's owner upon discovery. I do not think that would have happened 10 years ago.

[Fixerupper]

He could have long term damage to his windpipe, his tongue

please use facts not made up horror stories...it really blunts your argument :)

[Velvet]

Remember the AQHA scandal with halter horses that had blood taken out of them so they would be calm for their classes?

(Oh, and once again to clarify something... :sigh: The criminal behavior was not about rollkur, it was a statement in addition to this behavior and how it is related to my surprise that this industry is so corrupt even without purses offered in classes.)

[Fixerupper]

examples please!!
:eek:

[Kyzteke]

please use facts not made up horror stories...it really blunts your argument :)

Actually, sidepasser said it COULD cause damage -- not that it did.

And I think her argument should not even have to be made, because (supposedly) horsemen love their horses. That aspect is suppose to be accepted as true.

Waterboarding does NOT cause death or even damage, and yet it is expressly considered torture by every civilized country in the world. It is MENTAL torture. Just because something does not cause long-lasting physical damage does not make it ok or right.

Many people survived the concentration camps of WWII (of course, many did not), so are we to say "hell, it's ok -- after all, they came out alive and intact."

Again, we cannot justify this by saying this type of "abuse" appears in other sports too -- shame on those other sports. But here we are talking about dressage, which of all the equestrian sports is suppose to be about a willing partnership between horse and rider, a dance of grace, brilliance and expression that the horse performs WILLINGLY. It is suppose to "mimic" the natural beauty of movement that a horse performs all on his own, simply because he CAN -- for the sheer joy of it all.

Anyone who sees a willing horse moving with "joy" in most of the top level, modern dressage riding today (not to mention this video) needs glasses.

[nhwr]

Plumcreek;

I think you are right. People will disagree about just how terrible this is. I usually resist being spoonfed opinions from biased sources (which this clearly is). I think a lot of people are like that.

The most effective way to address issues like this would be to set the hysterics aside and simply identify it as very poor dressage. That is something that just about everyone can agree on.

[Kyzteke]

The most effective way to address issues like this would be to set the hysterics aside and simply identify it as very poor dressage. That is something that just about everyone can agree on.

nhwr -- I totally agree, but obviously, not everyone IS identifying it as "very poor dressage." The judges who scored the ride in the '70's apparently do not think that way, do they?

So for the 3rd time I have to ask -- why are they continually rewarding what you say "everyone" sees as "very poor dressage?"

I maintain it needs to start with judges who actually read the rulebook and are strictly disciplined when they do not. Then, these rides will not win. When they do not win, riders will no longer ride this way....

[nhwr]

so you propose that judges judge the warm ups?

I don't think that is practical.

[Beasmom]

Here is my answer to this and to the "white hat" thread.

If you disagree with this form of riding/training, do not do it. Avoid those who do -- trainers, clinicians, instructors. Don't patronize them. Don't go to their clinics. Don't give them your money. Don't buy their horses, tack, clothing lines, books.

Support the trainers, instructors and clinicians with whom you agree and admire. There is only so much you can control. Control what you can, those things within your realm of influence. Your own life, and through your good example (and teaching, and training).

When and if those "bad" trainers succeed at competitions, let it go, let it go. You are following your own conscience, and training your horse with kindness. In the end, your horse will last longer, be happier -- and you will know you have done the right thing.

There will always be cruelty in the world -- to animals and to humans. Try as we might, cruelty cannot be completely eradicated.

[vineyridge]

This is interesting to me as well. There is a trainer around here with a really good reputation for starting young horses and "fixing" bad ones. Based on that reputation I sent a mare to him; he worked with her for a few months, then she colicked and had to be put down.

A year or so later, I was thinking about sending two unstarted TBs to him for starting until a good friend told me that he had been banned from showing in local Arabian breed shows for abuse. What he had done to deserve such a penalty I don't know, but I promised my friend on a stack of bibles that I would never let him get near a horse of mine again. It must have been something really bad, because I'd never heard of banning by a breed organization before.

And there was a h/j "trainer" here who made some of her ponies for juniors live in draw reins in their stalls. Some one of her trainers (and she had had dressage training as well as H/J training) must have showed her that such behavior was effective as a "training" tool.



I am reading all this with a real sense of de-ja vu. This is EXACTLY the struggle the caring horsemen in the breed show world faced for a decade of the abusive low head frames winning big in Western Pleasure and Hunter Under Saddle. The warm up rings (especially in the wee hours of the morning) were painful to watch. Despite their best intentions, the AQHA (as group leader) was unable to influence enough to stop it from a "bad thing to do" standpoint.

What DID stop the worst examples (not totally gone, but waaay better) was simply reading their own rule book to the AQHA Executive Committee. The rules were there in plain text for all to see that peanut rollers could not win. The Exec Committee just needed to be publically reminded that, while they expected exhibitors and members to follow the rules, judges were not. Thankfully, they had the cajones to threaten loss of judges cards if the judging did not change to follow the rulebook.

This turnaround in group thinking has spawned side benefits that could directly relate to this dressage issue: For the first time, a breed show BNT was recently suspended for abuse (broken jaw and pus-filled spur holes in sides) that took place at his HOME BARN and was fully documented and prosecuted by the horse's owner upon discovery. I do not think that would have happened 10 years ago.

[NoDQhere]

Here is my answer to this and to the "white hat" thread.

If you disagree with this form of riding/training, do not do it. Avoid those who do -- trainers, clinicians, instructors. Don't patronize them. Don't go to their clinics. Don't give them your money. Don't buy their horses, tack, clothing lines, books.

Support the trainers, instructors and clinicians with whom you agree and admire. There is only so much you can control. Control what you can, those things within your realm of influence. Your own life, and through your good example (and teaching, and training).

When and if those "bad" trainers succeed at competitions, let it go, let it go. You are following your own conscience, and training your horse with kindness. In the end, your horse will last longer, be happier -- and you will know you have done the right thing.

YES. YES. YES.:yes::yes::yes:

[SoMuchToLearn]

Oh my god. So, if I have evidence that my neighbor is abusing her child, I should ignore it because I do not abuse MY child?? :eek:

I do not understand your logic whatsoever.

[Beasmom]

I'm not talking about children. I'm not talking about your neighbor. I'm talking about the training methods being discussed on this thread.

Calm down.

[Mardi]

That doesn't mean that it is a good thing though....
Mardi - not slamming you or saying you think this is ok..just using your point to illustrate mine.

Oh sorry Sidepasser...my post about the same thing going on in the warm rings at Arab shows was meant to say that it happens there too, and sadly, even more so than in dressage. Neither is ok.

For one dressage rider in a warm up ring riding overflexed, there will be 90% of the Arabian western pleasure trainers riding like that. I don't show Arabs, but I've been to the big shows with a friend who does, and I stand by the warm up ring and watch the poor horsemanship that goes around and around.

The Arabs have such natural self carriage...why they're ridden so poorly is a mystery.

[BaroquePony]

I used to think that what Beasmom suggested was very workable. However, I am older and have a lot more experience dealing with various types of people, and I have changed my mind about that approach. I now beleive that people have to somehow speak up.

The "somehow" part is the tricky part. I am not the type that enjoys attracting the hatred and wrath of certain types of people, and to really make changes the true problems have to be pointed out and their detrimental effects have to be brought to the surface loud and clear.

Some folks are going to be upset. That doesn't mean that change can't happen, but I think there will have to be some steady tension and a good direction before that will occur.

Yes, I think that it should happen, just not quite sure what is really the best approach.

[Plumcreek]

so you propose that judges judge the warm ups?

I don't think that is practical.

Posters are saying that "the Ride" scored in the 70s. So where is the footage of "the Ride"? Did I miss seeing it? Judges can only score what is in the ring in front of them.

[ideayoda]

No one is proposing judges judge warmups, but we are proposing that a TD/judge PREVENT any use of a method which does not following the TRAINING (aka dressage) guidelines of the FEI. And that might just mean that the horses will have a clear voice.

[slc2]

It would also mean that everyone, pretty much, would be getting called down by the td. Strange situation.

[LordKent]

No one is proposing judges judge warmups, but we are proposing that a TD/judge PREVENT any use of a method which does not following the TRAINING (aka dressage) guidelines of the FEI. And that might just mean that the horses will have a clear voice.

Don't mixup the FEI rules with the Paula K rules please

[mbm]

silence and non action never solved anything nor brought about any revolution.

the challenge is to come up with a) the end goal we are trying to reach, b)methods to get there, c) a marketing campaign to draw attention, d) people willing to give stuff up in order to create change.

no one is going to listen to people who are not willing to give stuff up. and giving stuff up can be many things: tickets the the word cup, your time, your money, your energy, etc etc. (how many hear by ANKY brand? or go to her clinics or watch her video or by her books?)

really, when it comes down to it all we have to do is demand that the judges judge BY THE RULES.PERIOD. if they did we would not be seeing the crap we see. it is that simple.

the PTB need to know that they can and will make money by adhering to the rules. because in the end for many it is all about money.

as for those that say well what about the horrors that other animals live with? well yes, that is sad , but honestly. no one is going to clean up dressage except dressage folks. outsides will be ridiculed and rightly so.

how would you feel is a western pleasure person came in and started going on about cruelty and dressage - would you listen to them and or would you ignore then and tell them to go mind their own business and clean up their own house?

i DO think we can bring about change. it is already happening. we just need to focus and come up with some good marketing campaigns, and perhaps just read the rules to those in charge and ask them how they think the topsport is in relation to them. honestly - it is that simple.

count me in on any fact finding, think tanks, ground roots org etc etc etc.

[mbm]

It would also mean that everyone, pretty much, would be getting called down by the td. Strange situation.

how so? do you think everything in the warm-up is counter to the rules? if so that is very sad.

[mbm]

Don't mixup the FEI rules with the Paula K rules please

what does this mean?

[ideayoda]

The guidelines/rules of the FEI are pretty specific as to what should be upheld in training (not merely showing). They are not my rules, they were put together by a group of very learned horseman that know what it took to achieve high collection with any horse. Right now the guidelines seem to only apply (briefly) to the 1o minutes in the arena, rather than the basis for what is done there. Why should they not apply to the entire riding period? And why should that not be enforced in toto?

[Pony Fixer]

No one is proposing judges judge warmups, but we are proposing that a TD/judge PREVENT any use of a method which does not following the TRAINING (aka dressage) guidelines of the FEI. And that might just mean that the horses will have a clear voice.

Confused--since hyperflexion is not "illegal" under FEI guidelines, how does the TD have any say? I have been asked to "police" warm ups for TDs at a couple CDIs. Specifically, asked to report on excessive spurring, spur marks, and yanking. I have never been asked to report on hyperflexion, because for now at least, it is permissible.

[mbm]

well, clearly one of the things to accompish would be to ban hyperflexion from the warmups.

for those that say - but wait! how would you know it is hyperflexion?

it would be easy enough to state for instance that there would be no overbent necks for more that x minutes. simple. and overbent neck could be defined as poll below the withers and nose behind the verticle by x degrees.

simple solution.

of course changing the rules not so simple but this is where we need to go.

[mbm]

by the way i am (re) reading "Dressage a guideline for riders and judges" by Wolfgang Niggli.

what a great book! if only judges judged according to what he has laid out. it is all so simple and crystal clear.

is he still alive?

we need to start working together with any "big name" people we can find to come up with a real concrete and doable method to bring dressage back to it's original intent - and get rid of this crap eXtremeStreSSage!

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Pony Fixer:

I have never been asked to report on hyperflexion, because for now at least, it is permissible.

How about limp flopping tongues that do not seem to be functioning as a tongue should? OK if they have a vet certify that the tongue was permanently damaged (in other words, the flopping tongue would not be due to the way the horse was being ridden at the time)?

[Bats79]

It would also mean that everyone, pretty much, would be getting called down by the td. Strange situation.

Until they realised that people WERE watching and DID care and that it wasn't "anything goes" anymore. And then when this riding starts to disappear from the competition grounds (before PETA disappear it for us) then we have a small hope of making it disappear from the home grounds as well.

Card the lot of them even if it means (in your eyes) that the "best" riders don't get to compete.

[Bats79]

well, clearly one of the things to accompish would be to ban hyperflexion from the warmups.

for those that say - but wait! how would you know it is hyperflexion?

it would be easy enough to state for instance that there would be no overbent necks for more that x minutes. simple. and overbent neck could be defined as poll below the withers and nose behind the verticle by x degrees.

simple solution.

of course changing the rules not so simple but this is where we need to go.

And a couple of video cameras in the warmup area will be the impartial umpire in the case of dispute of which I'm sure there will be many and riders can learn to bring trained horse to the competions not ones that "need" to be schooled so hard for over an hour at a time.

[BaroquePony]

Broken record .... what happened to Harmony Between Horse and Rider? Also, all this nonsense about how dressage is so subjective is malarky ... it really is not all that subjective. Some horse's are more beautiful and have a greater length of stride, but many horses who aren't quite so gifted work very correctly and should be scored as such. Swishing tails, tongues twisted out and tense backs with horses pushing rather than carrying are give aways to incorrect training.

[Fixerupper]

How about limp flopping tongues that do not seem to be functioning as a tongue should? OK if they have a vet certify that the tongue was permanently damaged (in other words, the flopping tongue would not be due to the way the horse was being ridden at the time)?
oh for pete's sake...the horse had his tongue over the bit...the rider fixed it ...move on! Haven't you ever seen a horse with its tongue over the bit??!! They also do it when not in hyperflexion....!!!
THE TONGUE DOES NOT FALL OFF!!!

[Plumcreek]

[QUOTE=mbm;4459453]
really, when it comes down to it all we have to do is demand that the judges judge BY THE RULES.PERIOD. if they did we would not be seeing the crap we see. it is that simple.
QUOTE]

Exerpt from the letter I sent to the AQHA Exec Committee in 2004 (re low heads):

"......Why is this a problem?
1. Exhibitors are expected to follow the rules of AQHA, as written, regarding drugs, treatment of horses, equipment, etc. and, when caught breaking rules, exhibitors are fined or suspended. Why are judges allowed to disregard the same rulebook and be rewarded (paid) then allowed to judge again the next week? If judges can break the rules, why can’t exhibitors? This is not fair, plain and simple.
2. The AQHA Rulebook has been painstakingly crafted over many years. Horsemen who are experts in the corresponding sections have considered every word. Class rules are meant to guide the breed in a positive direction and are meant to be followed. ...... "

Equine governing bodies have a fear of litigation and government-like CYA mentality. Impassioned rhetoric over worthy ideas will not move them. Targeted points they cannot argue around (like above) may get results.

[Fixerupper]

Hyperflexion is not illegal under the FEI rules :)
(or any other rules that I am aware of...)

It would be a much more convincing argument from the 'antis' if some facts were included along with the hyperbole and the made up horror story 'what ifs'
Seeing a 4 minute video on youtube is not enough education
and 'I don't like how it looks' isn't very convincing either...
just saying

[Velvet]

They are not my rules, they were put together by a group of very learned horseman that know what it took to achieve high collection with any horse.

PK just hit the nail on the head with this one. We've all heard rollkur is a great training tool, but only with a very specific type of horse. We know that Anky and Sjef will remove horses from the program that will not tolerate this type of training. So, with that said, you are talking about only a very select type of horse that will tolerate it and that it could be applied to (if you believe it is a viable training method).

Dressage is supposed to be used to improve ALL horses. It is, after all, directly interpreted as the training of the horse. It's meant to train and improve them. It's meant to be something that makes them more beautiful. This does not. While this can be used as a very short term correction at times, it is not a training method that will bring every horse to the upper levels--nor does it make them more beautiful and follow the current description written for movements that they are to be judged upon. (Look at the horse's nose position in the extended trot for just one example.)

And, once again, for the sake of clarity since people are only obsessed with the tongue part of this discussion, I'm focused more on rollkur.

[nero]

Hyperflexion is not illegal under the FEI rules :)
(or any other rules that I am aware of...)

It would be a much more convincing argument from the 'antis' if some facts were included along with the hyperbole and the made up horror story 'what ifs'
Seeing a 4 minute video on youtube is not enough education
and 'I don't like how it looks' isn't very convincing either...
just saying

Poor FixerUpper, you must feel as though you are beating your head against a wall. Your posts are totally rational and I get it - clearly some refuse to listen to you and process your comments, they just scream them down without taking the time to consider. I'm with you, to become as 'outraged' as some here are I'd need a bit more than a horse with his tongue out and blue for 30 secs and then corrected, and then being worked for another four minutes, quite calmly, showing forward and responsive work in hyperflexion. The horse may well have been under duress for an excessive amount of time, he may not, but I do not think this video will tell you definitively therefore I would reserve my judgement on this issue until I knew more.

Seen tongues out in horses being worked in classical outline, fail to see that hyperflexion and blue tongues are mutually inclusive.

[Mardi]

No one is proposing judges judge warmups....

Just FYI...Klaus Blakenhol proposed this a few years ago.
The idea hasn't gone away.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=mbm;4459453]
really, when it comes down to it all we have to do is demand that the judges judge BY THE RULES.PERIOD. if they did we would not be seeing the crap we see. it is that simple.
QUOTE]

Exerp from the letter I sent to the AQHA Exec Committee in 2004:

"......Why is this a problem?
1. Exhibitors are expected to follow the rules of AQHA, as written, regarding drugs, treatment of horses, equipment, etc. and, when caught breaking rules, exhibitors are fined or suspended. Why are judges allowed to disregard the same rulebook and be rewarded (paid) then allowed to judge again the next week? If judges can break the rules, why can’t exhibitors? This is not fair, plain and simple.
2. The AQHA Rulebook has been painstakingly crafted over many years. Horsemen who are experts in the corresponding sections have considered every word. Class rules are meant to guide the breed in a positive direction and are meant to be followed. ...... "

Equine governing bodies have a fear of litigation and government-like CYA mentality. Impassioned rhetoric over worthy ideas will not move them. Targeted points they cannot argue around (like above) may get results.

What was their response ?

[Fixerupper]

Poor FixerUpper, you must feel as though you are beating your head against a wall. Your posts are totally rational and I get it - clearly some refuse to listen to you and process your comments, they just scream them down without taking the time to consider. I'm with you, to become as 'outraged' as some here are I'd need a bit more than a horse with his tongue out and blue for 30 secs and then corrected, and then being worked for another four minutes, quite calmly, showing forward and responsive work in hyperflexion. The horse may well have been under duress for an excessive amount of time, he may not, but I do not think this video will tell you definitively therefore I would reserve my judgement on this issue until I knew more.

Seen tongues out in horses being worked in classical outline, fail to see that hyperflexion and blue tongues are mutually inclusive.


Thank you...

really...:yes:

[AnotherRound]

Looked mottled to me. Maybe the tongue was blue because of a genetic coloration - you know - like Chow dogs' tongues.

[Plumcreek]

"What was their response?"

I can no longer find the 2004 response letter on the AQHA website, but in July 2004, the Exec Committee issued a public letter to all judges that they WOULD judge according to the rule book if they wanted to remain AQHA judges. Results in the show ring were instant and amazing. One HUS horse I know well with a local trainer, who previously had been shown ( and won a lot) with head 10" below level received a top ten at the Youth World in August with a level neck carriage, wearing a *rubber snaffle* instead of its normal correction bit.

This would never have come to pass without the full-throttle support of Alex Ross, relatively new AQHA Director of Judges who instantly understood the problem and agressively sought to solve it.
I would venture that the world of Dressage would need a similarly high up individual agressively on board. But, the take-away message is that judges really are very, very interested in keeping their cards.

[Kyzteke]

Hyperflexion is not illegal under the FEI rules :)
(or any other rules that I am aware of...)

It would be a much more convincing argument from the 'antis' if some facts were included along with the hyperbole and the made up horror story 'what ifs'
Seeing a 4 minute video on youtube is not enough education
and 'I don't like how it looks' isn't very convincing either...
just saying

So you are saying you need proof that this sort of riding causes long-term, permanent damage before you think it's a bad thing?

I can kick a dog and not cause any long-term, permanent damage...so I guess I should just have it?

[Brandy76]

fixerupper... why don't you try it? Put your chin to your chest, head down, and jog around for 90 minutes? The video showed 4.26 minutes, but that nightmare went on for 90 minutes. 90.
Nice guy. What a great RIDER.

So you are saying you need proof that this sort of riding causes long-term, permanent damage before you think it's a bad thing?

I can kick a dog and not cause any long-term, permanent damage...so I guess I should just have it?

[Fixerupper]

So you are saying you need proof that this sort of riding causes long-term, permanent damage before you think it's a bad thing?

I can kick a dog and not cause any long-term, permanent damage...so I guess I should just have it?

I can say that I kick my horse without any long term damage...I didn't realize we were talking about dogs :)


I am not advocating for or against...if you have read ANY of my posts on this issue ever!
The only thing I have said in the past is that I'd be far more concerned if I hadn't seen horses use over flexion as a resistance ...that would be use it as a resistance....voluntarily

I agree, it isn't very 'pretty', but neither is a horse kicking out at the rider's leg or wringing it's tail or yes...getting it's tongue over the bit

What I can't seem to get out of any of these discussions is what horrible long term mind breaking has anybody actually experienced....or is it all about 4 minute clips on youtube.

I've personally seen horses minds wrecked by never being allowed to go forward......but these horses seem to go forward...

I have much more problem with horses that are shod inappropriately, in poor fitting saddles being made to go reallly reallly slowly....so they don't 'scare' anyone.
Please share your experiences :)

[Fixerupper]

fixerupper... why don't you try it? Put your chin to your chest, head down, and jog around for 90 minutes? The video showed 4.26 minutes, but that nightmare went on for 90 minutes. 90.
Nice guy. What a great RIDER.

For one thing I couldn't jog for 90 minutes to save my life :lol:

And you watched it for 90 minutes did you?