How to get a naturally high-set horse to stretch down [Archive]

Oct. 20, 2009, 11:04 PM

This is going to be a little long, but I want to make sure I describe the situation accurately :)

My friend recently purchased a nice sporty mare who's almost confirmed third level (needs work on her changes) and is having trouble getting the mare to stretch down more. The mare has a naturally high head carriage, but she's also been ridden in a way to reinforce it and her previous owner rode her in a double for too often IMO, so that became a big crutch and the mare is pretty much useless in a snaffle now. Her previous owner told my friend that the best way to warm her up was pretty much with her nose to her chest. This upset me and I could tell by the way my friend said it that she didn't trust it was the best method either. Previous owner is a trainer at our barn and is best friends with the other trainer, so there will be no new info coming from them in terms of how to fix this (don't get me wrong--both are very capable riders, but I think they are quite bias in this situation and the prev. owner didn't get along very well with the mare so had lots of troubles).

Prev. owner has offered my friend draw reins, but my friend declined because she doesn't know how to use them properly and therefore doesn't feel confident enough to use them. I don't think they'd be useful in this situation either as the mare gets high and behind the vertical on her own. I asked if my friend's tried lunging her with sidereins, but the mare just sucks behind them, so they're no use.

The only time I see the mare REALLY come through her back and move in a proper outline is during her extensions (definitely her best quality!). Otherwise, she's just not there. My friend is afraid of stretchy circles because the mare just gets high and runs. I posed the idea tonight for my friend to try circling at a medium trot and seeing if the mare would stretch down lower with a longer rein. This seemed to work well, but doesn't seem like something you should do all ride long.

I've ridden the mare a couple times in the past and was able to get her moving longer and lower (my h/j past coming in handy!), but currently have a broken leg and cannot try to ride and help. Plus, it's HER horse! :)

Any ideas, past experiences, whatever? The mare's a little hot, but definitely has a lot of talent and my friend is a very gentle rider who I think will benefit her a lot.

Thanks!

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Oct. 20, 2009, 11:10 PM

I am so sorry, I must be really zonal - I read this as "how to get a natural high" - thinking that you were able to get the horse to move in a certain way and you got an endorphin rush!

I think, in brief, that to get that stretch they must be swinging through the back and really stepping under, then they just lengthen the spine when you ask for them to seek contact. I think draw reins would only make this situation even worse. Is she sufficiently strong in her back end? How overdeveloped are the wrong muscles in her neck and shoulders?

JackSprats Mom

Oct. 20, 2009, 11:14 PM

Honestly you get a high headed horse to go F/D/O same as you do any other horse, by getting an honest contact with the bit.

I would go back to basics and work at the walk/trot to really try and get her reaching, trasitions and basic lateral work help my guy alot.

GL

Oct. 20, 2009, 11:23 PM

Is she sufficiently strong in her back end? How overdeveloped are the wrong muscles in her neck and shoulders?

I'm by no means an expert (only been at dressage for 2 years, becoming an eventer now, but still trying to learn every day!), but she seems fairly strong in her hind end, but incredibly tight in her back and shoulders and has very very little muscle on her neck. People usually don't notice the lack of muscling in her neck because she has one of those wild-child manes that sticks up and gives the illusion of a more developed topline, but she looks terrible when braided.

I agree that the mare needs a lot more work in the basics, just not sure if that'll actually happen or not. Friend is really excited to have purchased a third level horse and is excited to finally be able to school a higher level on a regular basis. She'll also be continuing lessons with these same trainers on said mare :no: I have told her I think the mare would benefit from focusing on basics and building a better foundation in her training.

It's a double bummer because I would have LOVED to have this mare, but the broken leg has kept me out of the playing. So now I get to live vicariously and try to help as much as possible!

JackSprats Mom

Oct. 20, 2009, 11:35 PM

Friend is really excited to have purchased a third level horse and is excited to finally be able to school a higher level on a regular basis.

As I think anyone would tell your friend, horse has to have the basics to be able to school the rest well. So ultimately she'll have to go back and fix this problem.

meupatdoes

Oct. 21, 2009, 05:25 AM

Friend is really excited to have purchased a third level horse

Unfortunately, it does not sound like she bought a third level horse....:(

ETA:
Who the EFF is this trainer???!!
Jeebus, if you gave me draw reins, a double and a whip I could get anything fresh out of an auction in the backwoods to do a canter half pass if I just kicked, pulled and smacked hard enough.
Good God.
And you describe this nose-to-chest overuse of the double which produces a "third level" horse that cannot execute a simple TL sretchy circle as "very capable" riding?
It ISN'T.

It just makes me furious to hear about people who take people's money to hand them drawreins and "train" like this.

slc2

Oct. 21, 2009, 05:48 AM

When your leg heals up, do yourself and her a favor. Stay off the horse.

I think you're a smart girl, and can work out for yourself what is wrong here, and what you need to change in your approach to this problem.

asuits

Oct. 21, 2009, 10:14 AM

Okay I'll bite... If your friend is thinking she has a horse who is moving up the levels and doesn't want to move back down to the basics, how about trying some more advanced moves to get the horse's back loose and swinging. I can think of a couple that could do some good (if she'll listen that is).

1. Ride a square, stay off the wall at all times and when you get to a corner you want to do a sort of a 1/4 turn on the forehand all the while moving forward to get the horse really reaching under with her hind leg.

2. Ride a 20 meter circle but instead of just riding a 20 meter circle, ride 2times around the circle in a shoulder in and 2 times around the circle in a shoulder out. This can also be done with haunches in and haunches out.

Valentina_32926

Oct. 21, 2009, 11:13 AM

Best way is starting at the walk ask her to put her head and neck long and low. Long rein. If she tries to bring her head up bend her outside then inside then immediately use your legs to push mare forward into the bit and SOFTEN your elbows to encourage her to follow with her head and neck. Repeat often.

Once you can get and keep her head long & low then start trotting. She'll want to rush but use the above like you would a HH (eventually you'll be able to go back to "true" HH's but use this at first to get and keep her back engaged.

You'll find you need 6 months or more just working on getting mare to use her back by asking and keeping her long & low. That will also help her relax (one of the components of the training scale). Always make certain you're using her hind end to "lower" her front end but pushing her into the bit and softening your elbows when she starts coming into the bit. Eventually the soften will be so minute you won't really see it - other than the mares reaction of coming though and over her back. :cool:

Once you can do this at riders will at the walk and trot then add canter. If you do it too soon you'll have to re-start the process (although she should "learn" more quickly the second time). :winkgrin:

To control rushing you can use this technique and mix it up with slower posting (at the trot). Always try to end riding session with a 20 meter trot circle going from working trot to stretch down trot (long & low)... as a reward and as the last thing before ending the session so the horse comes out next time remembering the relaxed frame she was in the previous ride.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Oct. 21, 2009, 12:21 PM

Carol O

Oct. 21, 2009, 02:44 PM

Roan

Oct. 21, 2009, 02:48 PM

Forward, down and out.

Eileen

bort84

Oct. 21, 2009, 03:41 PM

To get my guy to do a really nice f/d/o, we did a LOT of circling (you can change it up with figure eights, change of direction, and varying diameters, but it ends up being a lot of circles, haha). I would encourage him to bend around my inside leg, while really trying to get his inside hind to step up and under. Eventually, he'd almost feel like he was taking a deep breath and would want to stretch down, all I had to do at that point was follow him with my hands while continuing to maintain a nice bend and encourage with my legs. We also did a lot of spiraling in and out from bigger to smaller circles and back again, really encouraging his haunches to move out as we made the circle bigger. Also, she may need to let her hands get a little low and her inside hand may need to get a little wide to really encourage the mare to follow. We also broke up the pattern with some counter flexion for a few strides.

I feel like we lived on the circle for the first couple of months I started working with him as he was not using himself properly and was terrified of the bridle because of his former "training." We worked on other things as well to mix it up, but we would move back into the circle often. Gradually everything about him improved. More consistent tempo, a nice relaxed rhythm, springy soft back, much more lateral flexibility. And that set us up to start working on the "fun" stuff with much more success, haha. He also got much better about curling up behind the bridle as a defense.

Anyway, hopefully your friend can express to her trainer that she'd really like to start with the basics with this mare so they can solidify their relationship - whatever she needs to say to make it sound nice, with the goal being to get the mare to go back to basics and relax. The trainer that is the friend of the former owner may actually have some different ideas than the former owner. Perhaps she could also clinic with somebody else? That's usually relatively easy for a trainer to stomach.

Oct. 21, 2009, 04:23 PM

And you describe this nose-to-chest overuse of the double which produces a "third level" horse that cannot execute a simple TL sretchy circle as "very capable" riding?
It ISN'T.

Oh, I don't think that's capable riding. The woman rides other horses very well and properly, but never really seemed to "get it" with this mare. I think she must have been secretly embarrassed about it and took it to those incorrect measures to try to save herself. I'm not trying to say it's okay, because it isn't and it just did her worse IMO, but that's what seems to be the case and she is a good rider otherwise.

Thanks for all the responses so far. I'll pass the advice on to my friend. She will be boarding the horse elsewhere for the winter and occasionally trailering in for lessons, but there will definitely be a better opportunity for her to work on her own agenda--hopefully one focused on basics!

Oct. 21, 2009, 04:40 PM

Unfortunately, it does not sound like she bought a third level horse....:(

That's what I think, too.

OP, Valentina's exercises sound good and are pretty much what I did with my horse, for whom stretch was a four-letter word.

I also agree with the six month timeframe. It will take at least that long and possibly longer. After 2 years, my horse has finally learned to really let go of his back. But he wasn't sold to me as a 3rd level horse. He's just a cute little homebred Arabian with a clueless rider who takes one lesson a week and doesn't work as hard as she should. ;) But at least I didn't resort to draw reins. gack

Your friend has her work cut out for her, that's for sure.

lstevenson

Oct. 21, 2009, 08:31 PM

Unfortunately, it does not sound like she bought a third level horse....:(

ETA:
Who the EFF is this trainer???!!
Jeebus, if you gave me draw reins, a double and a whip I could get anything fresh out of an auction in the backwoods to do a canter half pass if I just kicked, pulled and smacked hard enough.
Good God.
And you describe this nose-to-chest overuse of the double which produces a "third level" horse that cannot execute a simple TL sretchy circle as "very capable" riding?
It ISN'T.

It just makes me furious to hear about people who take people's money to hand them drawreins and "train" like this.

Totally agree. If the horse won't stretch down when offered to, no part of it's training has been correct.

goeslikestink

Oct. 21, 2009, 09:26 PM

[QUOTE=mg;4450175]This is going to be a little long, but I want to make sure I describe the situation accurately :)

My friend recently purchased a nice sporty mare who's almost confirmed third level (needs work on her changes) and is having trouble getting the mare to stretch down more.

shes a novice as in doesnt know much so mateys been conned

The mare has a naturally high head carriage,
but she's also been ridden in a way to reinforce it and her previous owner rode her in a double for too often IMO, so that became a big crutch and the mare is pretty much useless in a snaffle now.

heavy hands do that so the horse is advading the contact by hollowing up and putting head up

Her previous owner told my friend that the best way to warm her up was pretty much with her nose to her chest. This upset me and I could tell by the way my friend said it that she didn't trust it was the best method either. Previous owner is a trainer at our barn and is best friends with the other trainer, so there will be no new info coming from them in terms of how to fix this (don't get me wrong--both are very capable riders, but I think they are quite bias in this situation and the prev. owner didn't get along very well with the mare so had lots of troubles).

doesnt say much for there method of training nose to chest - its butt to poll to a relaxed yaw

Prev. owner has offered my friend draw reins, but my friend declined because she doesn't know how to use them properly and therefore doesn't feel confident enough to use them. I don't think they'd be useful in this situation either as the mare gets high and behind the vertical on her own. I asked if my friend's tried lunging her with sidereins, but the mare just sucks behind them, so they're no use.

dont can be dangerous in wrong hands and with this horse completely the wrong thing to do nor side reinns it wont help

The only time I see the mare REALLY come through her back and move in a proper outline is during her extensions (definitely her best quality!). Otherwise, she's just not there. My friend is afraid of stretchy circles because the mare just gets high and runs. I posed the idea tonight for my friend to try circling at a medium trot and seeing if the mare would stretch down lower with a longer rein. This seemed to work well, but doesn't seem like something you should do all ride long.

shes got to go back to basic as the horse hasnt been tuaght properly in the begining
so its its walk and trot using the half halt stride , using a full areana ie go large as in sqaure areana if you havent got one then mark out an area on the ground
20x60 using tyres cones or barrels etc so you can lengthen and shorten her stride
working on striaght forwards and focused
look here at help links pages for how to do the half halt stride if you dont know how
to -
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

also if the mares abit anti in the begining then add ground poles ie trotting poles down the centre line so you can keep her focused on what shes being asked and keep her attention
so like use it as figure of 8 as warm up or if you feel you need to add it so to keep her mind concentrating on the rider

I've ridden the mare a couple times in the past and was able to get her moving longer and lower (my h/j past coming in handy!), but currently have a broken leg and cannot try to ride and help. Plus, it's HER horse! :)

Any ideas, past experiences, whatever? The mare's a little hot, but definitely has a lot of talent and my friend is a very gentle rider who I think will benefit her a lot.

for the time being until she mastered the mare in walk and trot etc as she hot take her off all grian and just feed her hay once shes ok an going nicely if she needs more energy then re introduce grain in small meals adding if to little energy or takign away if to much
also read the back of all feed bags as most people havent a clue in whats high energy
feeedstuffs and what isnt , ie beat pulp maise oats is all high energy so try cool mix or low energy feedstuffs same to with supplements learn your feeds and supplements

as a horse that has good grassing and good quality hay with loads of feed and to little work is a time bomb waiting to go off

you can keep ahorse on hay and grass with work and in work if its good quality it has all the supplements a horse needs

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 12:22 AM

i dont want to comment on the horse in the op , but do you folks really think riding a horse around "long and low" will help the horse do anything except learn to go on the forehand?

honestly, in all my training over many years not one trainer has ever told me to put my horse long and low.... sure we throw in some stretchy circles to test the work, but it is for a few *steps*, and it tells me wheter the work has been correct - or not. and sure there are times i want my horse to go with a lower neck... but it is with contact and connection and it isnt very low.... just a slight lowering of the neck....

honestly, a horse with a tight back needs to learn to use its back correctly and relax. sure, lowering the neck is good, and maybe i am misunderstanding "long and low" but to me you would want to get the horse working the proper tempo which will help it relax, dont worry about the head and neck (ie no long and low, no high and deep etc).... once it is relaxed then you can start building better horse. use school figures to help the horse reach forward/downward (not long and low!) into the contact....

if you can double lunge this is really helpful. and sometimes..... sometimes there are mares who just have a very difficult time letting go and letting someone in..... so patience and correct work are key.

slc2

Oct. 22, 2009, 05:00 AM

Oct. 22, 2009, 10:51 AM

honestly, a horse with a tight back needs to learn to use its back correctly and relax. sure, lowering the neck is good, and maybe i am misunderstanding "long and low"

Yes, I think that's the case.

It does absolutely no good to have the horse "forward" until you get relaxation. To get the relaxation, you have to help the horse unlock the poll and neck. To get the horse to unlock the poll and neck, you show the horse he/she can move forward with head down, not pulled to his chest. If head goes up or horse curls up, then you ask for a little inside flexion and keep asking for forward. It's pretty simple.

Who gives a darn if the horse gets on its forehand at the beginning? If the horse is built for it (i.e., not butt high) that part will come. But first things first. The OP's friend needs to start all over again.

lstevenson

Oct. 22, 2009, 11:20 AM

i dont want to comment on the horse in the op , but do you folks really think riding a horse around "long and low" will help the horse do anything except learn to go on the forehand?

honestly, in all my training over many years not one trainer has ever told me to put my horse long and low.... sure we throw in some stretchy circles to test the work, but it is for a few *steps*, and it tells me wheter the work has been correct - or not. and sure there are times i want my horse to go with a lower neck... but it is with contact and connection and it isnt very low.... just a slight lowering of the neck....

honestly, a horse with a tight back needs to learn to use its back correctly and relax. sure, lowering the neck is good, and maybe i am misunderstanding "long and low" but to me you would want to get the horse working the proper tempo which will help it relax, dont worry about the head and neck (ie no long and low, no high and deep etc).... once it is relaxed then you can start building better horse. use school figures to help the horse reach forward/downward (not long and low!) into the contact....

Very surprised to hear you say this. Correct long and low IS with contact and connection, and is an absolute must for many horses, particularly those with high set on necks. I use it in warm up and cool down for most horses, as well as in the middle of each sesson for breaks and to test that the horse is truely seeking the connection.

And done correctly, it does not put the horse on the forehand.

Oct. 22, 2009, 11:37 AM

The emotional buzz words 'draw reins' and 'nose on the chest' are making people forget one thing. This person does not own this horse.

The owner may even WANT to lean on others at her barn and ENCOURAGE you, but this is not what she needs. She needs consistent lessons from ONE INSTRUCTOR. Not all the people at her barn, not even ONE person at the barn. She needs ONE INSTRUCTOR. A trained, hopefully certified, solid instructor.

Horses work in extended or lengthened gaits showing all the same problems they have in their basic work. The situation needs someone who has trained DOZENS of horses and riders to second level and far beyond. The OP has not done that. She needs to back off.

When your leg heals, restrain yourself. Stay off the horse. Support your friend emotionally, but please, please butt out. You riding the horse does not benefit her - you giving her 'pointers' only delays her getting a consistent relationship with a good trainer/instructor.[/I] I for one am very uncomfortable with your 'advice' to her. I don't think it's appropriate or correct.

Trust me, if it goes badly, you don't want to be in the middle of it, and if it goes well, it won't be because you know better how to ride the horse than the owner. It will be because she slowly and gradually, in her chosen way, gets familiar with this horse and finds out from an instructor, what to do with this horse. And YES, actually, she will probably have some bumps in the road as she figures this out. LET HER.

My friend is not going to get a different instructor. Whether or not the entire world thinks she should, she isn't. It doesn't matter what reasons she may or may not have for staying with the same person, because the situation is not going to change. She is staying with her instructor.

I know that I don't know how to deal with this situation correctly. I'm still very new to dressage and don't quite "get it" yet the way I do with jumping, which I've been doing my entire life. That's why I thought it would be helpful to ask the advice of more experienced people who do have a better idea of how to address this in a more correct manner. I'm not attempting to "train" my friend or her horse in any way. She asked me for exercises or ideas to help her horse and I told her I'd ask others who would know more. I wasn't advocating that any of the things in my first post were "proper," I was just including them because I thought they might help people understand what the mare's like and therefore enable them to give more accurate advice.

I didn't realize I was being an invasive or horrible person for trying to help out a friend who explicitly asked me for advice. And I thought I was going about it in the best manner I could, given the situation, by seeking out the advice of the more experienced riders on this board.

in_the_zone

Oct. 22, 2009, 11:42 AM

This is a common issue with several types of horses: Freisians, Cobs, Dutch Harness Horses, a lot of driving horses, and retrains from Saddleseat. I've trained quite a few of them and none of them were ever "fixed" with draw reins. In fact, quite the opposite, so IMHO your friend made a wise choice. Draws will simply encourage this type of horse to curl up more, lock it's back where the neck ties in at the withers, and just get shorter and shorter in the neck.

To get a horse like this going correctly and over it's back, you need to get it longitudinally supple always thinking longer in the neck. Practice first in a working gait. Your friend may not be riding this horse forward enough, and my need some additional professional help, at the very least, from the ground.

A couple exercises off the top of my head...

Don't work the walk with contact for now.

Trot a 20m and bend the horse a little extra for a circle and then counterbend for a circle. Use your thighs and seat to squeeze the horse forward to the bit. When he reaches for it, give an inch or 3 but don't throw it away. When the horse does it well for 2 circles, give him a walk break on a long rein. Pat, tell him he's good and let him relax and think about what a great job he did.

Do a stretchy circle and then bring him back up into a working frame. If he is resistant, flex him slightly to the inside, use the legs and seat to push him forward, and when you feel him give, you give. Up and down over and over until he does it well. Again, pat and break.

Spiral in and out. If your friend can't ride without steering from the reins, skip this one!

Go long around the whole arena. Go like hell without flopping on the forehand. If the horse is locked in the back, gently flex it in for a few strides, give, gently flex out, and give again. Ride the hind legs over the back, and forward to the bit. This is often my warmup for this type of horse after a good loose walk.

You can try to add in a little collection after the horse really gets the forward part and responds well to the leg and seat's forward urging. But be very careful not to get short in the neck.

katarine

Oct. 22, 2009, 11:56 AM

Trust me, if it goes badly, you don't want to be in the middle of it, and if it goes well, it won't be because you know better how to ride the horse than the owner. It will be because she slowly and gradually, in her chosen way, gets familiar with this horse and finds out from an instructor, what to do with this horse. And YES, actually, she will probably have some bumps in the road as she figures this out. LET HER.

I can't believe I am going to agree with SLC, but I am, with a caveat.

Your friend puts you in a funny spot- it sounds like HER trainers advocate jamming the horse into the bridle. It also sounds like the mare needs a chance to go long and low and lengthen her neck and seek that connection and get loose and relaxed. If her trainer's don't buy that, but you do: the trick is finding out how to say it in a way she can hear, and in a way she can defend that choice to her trainer.

In riding we make philosophical choices just about every other stride. If she wants to go down a path that is counter to her teacher's way, that is where she's going to be stuck.

My point is this, maybe instead of supplying her with exercises that really do sound counter to what her trainer will want her to do, maybe instead you help her figure out how to ask questions such as:

Do I ever want to ride her on a longer rein, to let her seek the contact? If so, when and how?

She seems tight and unhappy. Do you think it might help her relax if we did some spiral exercises to encourage her to soften and bend?

Things like that. I suppose I think that helping her find the questions, is more effective than supplying her with answers. Does that make any sense?

I am NEW to dressage but not new to lessons and taking instruction. The best instructors want questions- it demonstrates one's desire to understand, an openness, an interest in getting it. IF these instructors shut her down or discourage questions...then her next question of herself is: am I happy taking instruction from someone who treats me poorly and discourages questions. That may not ever happen- they may well WELCOME her level of interest and things blossom from there. But it's sure where I'd go first...

bort84

Oct. 22, 2009, 12:10 PM

Agree with Katarine. That's why I suggested maybe your friend saying something like - I'd really like to start from the beginning with this mare so we can solidify our basics before moving up... How can I encourage her to get long and low so we can both relax for a bit? Or whatever.

I don't know, she should just try to find ways to ask for what she wants without offending. Granted, it's possible if she's riding with the trainer that didn't own the horse but was friends with the old owner (is this who she's riding with?), that trainer may have some different ideas. That trainer may also be able to get over her bias since she wasn't actually the owner...

And your friend can maybe make it feel safe and inoffensive to the former owner by being humble and explaining that due to her lack of experience, she'd like to start with some of the more basic work - that way she doesn't feel threatening to the former owner. I don't know, it's hard to diagnose from here, as usual, and it's hard to read people from here too, but hopefully she can make it work. Obviously it would be nice if she could just start fresh somewhere else, but that's not always an option.

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 12:25 PM

Very surprised to hear you say this. Correct long and low IS with contact and connection, and is an absolute must for many horses, particularly those with high set on necks. I use it in warm up and cool down for most horses, as well as in the middle of each sesson for breaks and to test that the horse is truely seeking the connection.

And done correctly, it does not put the horse on the forehand.

perhaps our definitions of "long and low" are different?

I see so many folks going around with slack reins with the horse tilted on the forehand - a posture that i have never seen in any odg book nor been told to do with any reputable trainer nor have i seen it done by any good trainer.

however, lowering the neck so it "falls down from the withers" is another thing, and is helpful especially while dbl lunging etc. maybe we are jsut using different names for similar things?

believe me, i spent a couple years at barns where long and low was the daily fare... and it never lead to anything other than an on the forehand horse.

bort84

Oct. 22, 2009, 12:36 PM

I see so many folks going around with slack reins with the horse tilted on the forehand - a posture that i have never seen in any odg book nor been told to do with any reputable trainer nor have i seen it done by any good trainer.

I don't think anyone meant letting a horse lounge around on the buckle with hind end trailing when they said f/d/o or long and low (when people learn and are working on their own, they don't always get it right, so you might see more of what you describe called long and low or whatever). You follow your horse down when he wants to stretch, but you should maintain contact. Your horse should also be learning to push from his hind end with this kind of work. His weight may initially be on the forehand, but you are strengthening his hind end which enables him to shift his weight in the future. The circles and spiraling really help the hind end to work correctly and not just trail behind the front end.

We did this a lot for my bunched up, naturally tight yet forward, and scared of the bridle project. Now that he's gotten the benefit from this type of work (springy soft back, hind end that pushes and works with the front end, suppleness and balance) we don't use this tool nearly as often. Where we used to live on the circle, spiraling and going mostly long and low, we now just use it occasionally, and for warm ups. He also goes with a higher head and neck these days but still maintains a soft round back. I really can't tell you what a difference it made for this particular horse.

lstevenson

Oct. 22, 2009, 12:38 PM

perhaps our definitions of "long and low" are different?

I see so many folks going around with slack reins with the horse tilted on the forehand - a posture that i have never seen in any odg book nor been told to do with any reputable trainer nor have i seen it done by any good trainer.

however, lowering the neck so it "falls down from the withers" is another thing, and is helpful especially while dbl lunging etc. maybe we are jsut using different names for similar things?

believe me, i spent a couple years at barns where long and low was the daily fare... and it never lead to anything other than an on the forehand horse.

"Long and low" with loose reins and no connection means hunters or western to me. And you are correct in that there is no benefit to that. In dressage it should be the same as what we are seeking with the trot stretchy circle, with contact and connection, and the horse not on the forehand. And is a very valuable excercise for many reasons at all levels.

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 12:52 PM

question: is FDO a *test* or it is an * exercise* to be done or periods of time?

i have been taught it is a test and should only be done for a few steps at most.

i have also been taught to not worry about the head/neck to ride the hind end and the rest will follow.

so many ideas..... so much confusion ;)

lstevenson

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:03 PM

question: is FDO a *test* or it is an * exercise* to be done or periods of time?

Both. It is a great test for all horses at all levels. And many (usually the ones built with a high set neck) benefit from extended periods of it in their routine.

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:10 PM

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:21 PM

You follow your horse down when he wants to stretch, but you should maintain contact. Your horse should also be learning to push from his hind end with this kind of work. His weight may initially be on the forehand, but you are strengthening his hind end which enables him to shift his weight in the future. The circles and spiraling really help the hind end to work correctly and not just trail behind the front end.

We did this a lot for my bunched up, naturally tight yet forward, and scared of the bridle project. Now that he's gotten the benefit from this type of work (springy soft back, hind end that pushes and works with the front end, suppleness and balance) we don't use this tool nearly as often. Where we used to live on the circle, spiraling and going mostly long and low, we now just use it occasionally, and for warm ups.

That's it exactly. Not very complicated, but maybe you have to have ridden a horse like this to understand.

katarine

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:30 PM

swgarasu

Oct. 22, 2009, 02:02 PM

ok, so given that true FDO is hard and it takes a lot of time for a horse to be able to carry enough to do it correctly, how would it benefit an unbalanced horse to do it for longer periods of time? wouldn't this just throw it on the forehand and thus enlarge the issue?

for me lots of curved lines in a nice even tempo tends get the horse relaxing over the topline.

I think it depends on the horse, and I think it's pretty common to hear that the horse that tends to get too low in the neck needs to be ridden more up, the horse that tends to get too high needs the neck ridden lower. The OP already stated this is a hot horse that tends to keep the head high. When I exprience this the horse gets too high and light in front, and thus NOT through (it is impossible with the dropped back). So the absolute best feeling is to have the horse stretch forward and down and bring its back up and relax and keep steadily reaching. It's not just the head and neck, it's the whole package- the head and neck stretch is just the most obvious part visually. The goodness comes from having everything round and the tension released- the whole horse seems to arch from nose to tail, the back is up and everything feels connected, the balance is better, the flexibility is better, the tempo is better and the relaxation is better. The real stretch feels like it is coming from the back lifting, like each side of the back is reaching up and out and forming one long, strong- THING :) (cushion, bridge, branch, pool noodle? There is no word I can think of for what I mean - it is sort of like a very strong thick pool noodle that arches just slightly up), instead of dropping down and shrinking into hard little balls. It is a very visual feeling to me- I see the picture in my head but am having an impossible time trying to describe it. Anyway.
I don't think that having the head and neck lower is a necessity, however it does seem to relax the horse some and I think it can help some with balance (a smaller adjustment required for the same balancing effect- I'm thinking physics and levers and such). For whatever reason getting the horse like this helps unlock the places she gets stuck- just in front of the withers, just behind the withers, and mid back. I've never had a problem bringing my horse's head and neck back up as that is her natural tendancy, though it does seem the tendancy to drop the back gets a bit more pronounced as the head gets higher (probably more things catch her eye and she wants to gawk at them).

Also for OP- stuff to try- a different saddle, lateral suppling (curved lines, circles, simple slight flexion and leg), and even lunge lessons on the horse if it's not dangerous.

The hot horse with the tight, dropped back and the high head so far is my most difficult ride (and it figures, the most talented) but while it is probably the most frustrating, I feel I have learned so much feel and so much more understanding. We''ll see if I ever master consistant execution.

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 02:16 PM

hey, the reason i am asking the questions is becuase i *have* ridden horses like being discussed. i am just trying to play devils advocate here to help the discussion be more clear :)

the very bottom of the scale is relaxation. for a horse to want to swing in the back and let go it needs to be relaxed. this means even steady appropriate tempo with a soft hand that shows the horse that contact is a freind. if the horse was going around like a camel i would use curved lines to induce it to relax/bend in its body. (ie lateral flexibility/bend leads to longitudinal bend ie: roundness)

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 02:20 PM

- when I sense his shoulders locking down- FDO we go.

If you don't have to deal with this sorta horse, good for you LOL!

how is asking the horse to go lower with it's neck helping it unlock it shoulders from locking down?

honestly this is what i see a lot... people going around "long and low" and all it does is lock the horses shoulder to the ground, which is the absolute opposite of what we want.

katarine

Oct. 22, 2009, 02:23 PM

In your efforts to further the discussion you are slowing it to a snail's pace and dulling it to death. I do what works for my horse which is FDO & L&L to help him relax, which it does, which unlocks his shoulders.

Any more microminutae is going to incur a billing fee I'll never collect. :cool:

Oct. 22, 2009, 02:28 PM

Valentina_32926

Oct. 22, 2009, 02:36 PM

i dont want to comment on the horse in the op , but do you folks really think riding a horse around "long and low" will help the horse do anything except learn to go on the forehand?

...i want my horse to go with a lower neck... but it is with contact and connection and it isnt very low.... just a slight lowering of the neck....

honestly, a horse with a tight back needs to learn to use its back correctly and relax. sure, lowering the neck is good, and maybe i am misunderstanding "long and low" ....

Sounds like you weren't taught long and low - at least in the sense my GP and judge trainers have taught me.

If you place the horse neck long and low you ARE using it's back. If you allow it to fall on it's forehand then you're not riding,, you're a passenger. :eek:

Idea is to get horse to use back, not brace and carry itself - which is what the stretchy circles are all about - when you "feed" the horse rein (length) they "follow" it down but MAINTAIN the suspension in their gaits without falling on their forehand. If they fall on their forehand you must re-adjust them (HH, bring them back up, etc...) then ask for long and low again until you get and keep the back without allowing them to peanut roll/fall on forehand, etc.

katarine

Oct. 22, 2009, 02:42 PM

I'll chip in $5. But pardon me if I don't actually READ the resulting thread.

Unless I have insomnia.

LOL Rock ON Anchovy!!

:)

bort84

Oct. 22, 2009, 03:44 PM

how is asking the horse to go lower with it's neck helping it unlock it shoulders from locking down?

honestly this is what i see a lot... people going around "long and low" and all it does is lock the horses shoulder to the ground, which is the absolute opposite of what we want.

Different people describe the exercise in different ways (and many many people don't do a lot of dressage exercises correctly, so what you are seeing isn't correct, but that doesn't make the idea of the exercise incorrect when properly executed). In Sally O'Connor's book "Common Sense Dressage" she describes it as "showing the horse the way to the ground" and discusses how you can do it through ground work. It generally involves asking the horse to flex to the inside and then ask him to use his inside hind leg up and under him. The result of this in the early stages is usually that the horse wants to stretch down and out. You maintain the flexion as he does so, and you also continue to encourage the hind end to work properly. You don't just let him fall on his forehand and fall apart as soon as he stretches down.

I know with my horse, we often could only get the proper f/d/o for a few strides, then he'd come back up. So I'd ask for it, let him stretch, then let him rebalance himself. If he could maintain the same feel (soft springy back, engaged hind end, proper flexion, good rhythm and tempo) as he brought his head and neck back up, well that's the goal! Haha. And you really could feel him loosen through his shoulders and poll once he got through that first stretch. They can still use their hind end and backs properly with their heads lower. Also, you don't do this indefinitely. I remember there was a particular lesson where my trainer said, all right, he's gotten all the good things we wanted out of this, so let's start focusing on other things and ask him to do so with a higher head and neck.

I've read about variations of this exercise in numerous dressage books, so perhaps you've just seen too many people doing it the wrong way. And, there are multiple ways to skin a cat, so I'm sure you have effective exercises that give you similar results. Perhaps you should ask a trainer that you ride with about the exercise and see what they have to say about it.

Also want to point out that as a saddle seat convert, I was very skeptical at first of this type of exercise (thinking, like you, how in the world does this exercise lead to a horse that is balanced and properly using his hind end?) But then I felt the noticeable difference in my horse, and I couldn't argue with it.

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 04:35 PM

bort, what you describe is the correct way (as far as i have been taught) of teaching the horse to reach for the bit - so we agree there.

i think what i am disagreeing with (if i understand what folks are saying) is that riding the horse in FDO for more than a few steps (a circle at most) is worth anything....

i should go loook up some pics to describe what i am saying....

ok, here is the first thing i got when i typed "long and low" in google:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:cQaEUJNIHAh7FM:http://rlv.zcache.com/long_and_low_postcard-p239526575048836818qibm_400.jpg
to me the above is the "bad" long and low with the horse on the forehand.

here is what i think of when i talk about the neck "falling down aka "

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/LongLow/LongLow03.gif&imgrefurl=http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/LongAndLow.html&usg=__CcXtlFpdp47j0rGGmltIxEZl9C0=&h=262&w=352&sz=35&hl=en&start=35&sig2=p4B_n5pu7FdAMoQHACyBZA&um=1&tbnid=90G3t28KmAC2_M:&tbnh=89&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlong%2Band%2Blow%2Bdressage%26ndsp%3D 18%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1C1CHMH_enUS300US304%26sa%3DN %26start%3D18%26um%3D1&ei=cr_gSsWPF4ycswOMoqHdCA

here is another version of good FDO (sorry link is broken so this is the only way i could show the pic)
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/behind_the_vertical/stretchy-circle_grey.gif

and the text to go with it: "This is not a "working" outline! This is a relaxing outline! The work happens in between the stretching down. It is the change of postures between actively working in a higher frame with more bend in the haunches and hocks, and relaxing down into a forward-down-out stetch that elasticises the back muscles. Not the "pull-stretch-pull-stretch" in a maximally stertched outline. The horse is released into this outline after a short bout of collecting "work". In the "work" he should always show the desire to go in this direction, but not actually do it until the rider lets him slowly take the reins out of the hands.

It is also not necessary to stretch out all the way down to the footing at all times. Horses with awkwardly set on necks can have problems with maintaining balance and rhythm and relaxation over the back if "forced" to take a lower position than their neck muscles can stretch. It's one thing to graze without a rider stretched down, another to trot in rhythm and balance while ridden stretching down." http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

bort84

Oct. 22, 2009, 05:17 PM

and the text to go with it: "This is not a "working" outline! This is a relaxing outline! The work happens in between the stretching down. It is the change of postures between actively working in a higher frame with more bend in the haunches and hocks, and relaxing down into a forward-down-out stetch that elasticises the back muscles. Not the "pull-stretch-pull-stretch" in a maximally stertched outline. The horse is released into this outline after a short bout of collecting "work". In the "work" he should always show the desire to go in this direction, but not actually do it until the rider lets him slowly take the reins out of the hands.

It is also not necessary to stretch out all the way down to the footing at all times. Horses with awkwardly set on necks can have problems with maintaining balance and rhythm and relaxation over the back if "forced" to take a lower position than their neck muscles can stretch. It's one thing to graze without a rider stretched down, another to trot in rhythm and balance while ridden stretching down." http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

I would agree with that, which is why I mentioned that it's usually something you actively do for a few strides then maybe ask for it again. Granted, my horse did go with a lower neck and head for awhile than would be competitive, but he didn't actively stretch for minutes at a time. He just maintained his balance and rhythm and relaxation better if I could keep him in between the f/d/o and an ideal head/neck carriage for show. Eventually we were able to lift him back up and maintain the benefits we'd gotten from the long and low work.

I guess I would say that the stretch freed everything up to be able to do his everyday work properly, it can be like a release button for some horses. When you add a circle and proper flexion to that, you can really accomplish a lot of balancing work and hind end strengthening. The horse wanting to stretch down I consider more of a response to you getting everything working properly - you set him up correctly, then the horse wants to stretch, you know you've gotten him set up the right way. Eventually you can get all of that without having to let him stretch. Not sure if I'm explaining that well...

Eventually you get to a point where you can ask him to stretch and allow him to do so. But you've also gotten to a point where the rhythm, balance, and suppleness that your horse found on the stretchy circle he can keep throughout most of his work. Then you only need to go back to the exercise to remind him or as a warm up.

I'm no dressage expert at this point, but this is what I've gathered from the horses I've ridden and from things I've read and been taught. You're right that it can't really be ridden in a constant state for long periods if done properly. I think every dressage book I've read also describes the f/d/o as a nice stretch to use after successful strenuous work, like you mentioned - it encourages the horse to go forward out of a difficult maneouver and relaxes him at the same time. My point is that it can also be very useful for rehabbing a horse that has forgotten how to relax and stretch into the bit.

Vibrant

Oct. 22, 2009, 05:30 PM

I think it depends on the horse, and I think it's pretty common to hear that the horse that tends to get too low in the neck needs to be ridden more up, the horse that tends to get too high needs the neck ridden lower. The OP already stated this is a hot horse that tends to keep the head high. When I exprience this the horse gets too high and light in front, and thus NOT through (it is impossible with the dropped back). So the absolute best feeling is to have the horse stretch forward and down and bring its back up and relax and keep steadily reaching. It's not just the head and neck, it's the whole package- the head and neck stretch is just the most obvious part visually. The goodness comes from having everything round and the tension released- the whole horse seems to arch from nose to tail, the back is up and everything feels connected, the balance is better, the flexibility is better, the tempo is better and the relaxation is better. The real stretch feels like it is coming from the back lifting, like each side of the back is reaching up and out and forming one long, strong- THING :) (cushion, bridge, branch, pool noodle? There is no word I can think of for what I mean - it is sort of like a very strong thick pool noodle that arches just slightly up), instead of dropping down and shrinking into hard little balls. It is a very visual feeling to me- I see the picture in my head but am having an impossible time trying to describe it. Anyway.
I don't think that having the head and neck lower is a necessity, however it does seem to relax the horse some and I think it can help some with balance (a smaller adjustment required for the same balancing effect- I'm thinking physics and levers and such). For whatever reason getting the horse like this helps unlock the places she gets stuck- just in front of the withers, just behind the withers, and mid back. I've never had a problem bringing my horse's head and neck back up as that is her natural tendancy, though it does seem the tendancy to drop the back gets a bit more pronounced as the head gets higher (probably more things catch her eye and she wants to gawk at them).

Also for OP- stuff to try- a different saddle, lateral suppling (curved lines, circles, simple slight flexion and leg), and even lunge lessons on the horse if it's not dangerous.

The hot horse with the tight, dropped back and the high head so far is my most difficult ride (and it figures, the most talented) but while it is probably the most frustrating, I feel I have learned so much feel and so much more understanding. We''ll see if I ever master consistant execution.

I love this response. Describes my horse exactly, and how I ride him, much better than I could. :yes:

lstevenson

Oct. 22, 2009, 08:54 PM

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/behind_the_vertical/stretchy-circle_grey.gif

This is a decent picture of a horse stretching, where the horse is balanced (not on the forehand), and actively swinging through it's back. Why would you think that it would be bad to keep this frame for any length of time? There is no "drawback" to it. It is not hard for them, and they find it very relaxing. For horses who have their necks set high on their shoulders, warming up for lengths of time in this frame is simply the best way to really loosen their loins and get their back muscles swinging. And then of course returning to that stretch whenever the horse shows some tension or fatigue in the topline from the more collected work.

If you refuse to try this method, you may as well save yourself some time and not ever try to train any OTTB's. As you probably won't ever really access their backs without it. ;)

subk

Oct. 22, 2009, 10:23 PM

OP, go to Amazon and buy two copies of Wilhelm Muselers classic book, "Riding Logic." Give one to your friend and keep and read the other for yourself. In it you will find a fabulous discussion on "Putting a badly-made or a ruined horse to the aids." It will answer many of your questions with very specific instructions on how to "show the horse the way to the ground" (lowering and stretching the neck) and why that is important.

This horse is not on the aids which is a fundamental basis that needs to be accomplished before worrying about things like being on the forehand (a function of the hindquarters not the neck.) If you can't make a horse stretch his neck then you have no ability to prevent him from coming behind the bit and evading the influence of the reins.

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 10:24 PM

This is a decent picture of a horse stretching, where the horse is balanced (not on the forehand), and actively swinging through it's back. Why would you think that it would be bad to keep this frame for any length of time? There is no "drawback" to it. It is not hard for them, and they find it very relaxing. For horses who have their necks set high on their shoulders, warming up for lengths of time in this frame is simply the best way to really loosen their loins and get their back muscles swinging. And then of course returning to that stretch whenever the horse shows some tension or fatigue in the topline from the more collected work.

If you refuse to try this method, you may as well save yourself some time and not ever try to train any OTTB's. As you probably won't ever really access their backs without it. ;)

LS - i am happy to converse with you, but leave the personal stuff at the door, ok?

I have been taught that a good stretch is a test. nothing more nothing less - it gives you valuable information on how the work is going.

i also have been taught that there is a difference between a stretch and riding the neck down. riding the neck down can and does unlock the back/base of the neck etc. but it doesn't require the strength and balance that a real FDO does. also, lateral work, bended lines etc all do the same thing - get the horse to relax and seek the bit.

i wanted to add that what i found found very beneficial for a tight backed horse is to double lunge them = this allows the horse to really unlock and swing with out the rider etc. i have seen horses with no lower back blossom with this method and then they were able to take it to riding and keep the back working more or less properly and build on that.

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 10:30 PM

I would agree with that, which is why I mentioned that it's usually something you actively do for a few strides then maybe ask for it again. Granted, my horse did go with a lower neck and head for awhile than would be competitive, but he didn't actively stretch for minutes at a time. He just maintained his balance and rhythm and relaxation better if I could keep him in between the f/d/o and an ideal head/neck carriage for show. Eventually we were able to lift him back up and maintain the benefits we'd gotten from the long and low work.

I guess I would say that the stretch freed everything up to be able to do his everyday work properly, it can be like a release button for some horses. When you add a circle and proper flexion to that, you can really accomplish a lot of balancing work and hind end strengthening. The horse wanting to stretch down I consider more of a response to you getting everything working properly - you set him up correctly, then the horse wants to stretch, you know you've gotten him set up the right way. Eventually you can get all of that without having to let him stretch. Not sure if I'm explaining that well...

Eventually you get to a point where you can ask him to stretch and allow him to do so. But you've also gotten to a point where the rhythm, balance, and suppleness that your horse found on the stretchy circle he can keep throughout most of his work. Then you only need to go back to the exercise to remind him or as a warm up.

I'm no dressage expert at this point, but this is what I've gathered from the horses I've ridden and from things I've read and been taught. You're right that it can't really be ridden in a constant state for long periods if done properly. I think every dressage book I've read also describes the f/d/o as a nice stretch to use after successful strenuous work, like you mentioned - it encourages the horse to go forward out of a difficult maneouver and relaxes him at the same time. My point is that it can also be very useful for rehabbing a horse that has forgotten how to relax and stretch into the bit.

pretty much i agree with all of this.

lstevenson

Oct. 22, 2009, 10:48 PM

LS - i am happy to converse with you, but leave the personal stuff at the door, ok?

I have been taught that a good stretch is a test. nothing more nothing less - it gives you valuable information on how the work is going.

i also have been taught that there is a difference between a stretch and riding the neck down. riding the neck down can and does unlock the back/base of the neck etc. but it doesn't require the strength and balance that a real FDO does. also, lateral work, bended lines etc all do the same thing - get the horse to relax and seek the bit.

i wanted to add that what i found found very beneficial for a tight backed horse is to double lunge them = this allows the horse to really unlock and swing with out the rider etc. i have seen horses with no lower back blossom with this method and then they were able to take it to riding and keep the back working more or less properly and build on that.

What exactly do you think is personal about that post?? I'm talking in general, and it's a fact that regular stretching work is required to help horses who are tight in their backs. I could see where someone who only rides WBs (again, just talking generally here) might think stretching is only useful as a test. As most WBs tend to be naturally loose and supple in their loins. But most other breeds have a tendency to need help to really move through their backs. And while it takes strength and suppleness to stretch to the extreme, a medium stretch like the pic that I copied of yours is NOT difficult for the horse. Quite the opposite. It makes the difficult work more easy for him.

How do you think what you call "riding the neck down" is any different from stretching?

Have you ever seen any work by Reiner Klimke?? He is one of many top riders who did exactly as I described earlier, warming up and cooling down with long periods of long and low, with short periods of it between difficult movements as well. He said he used it to keep the horse "loose".

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 11:15 PM

my klimke vids are all packed away so i cant access them... but i did find this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYHv-gDq4B8 which is a trailer for one of his vids. it does show some warm up/riding in and i assume what you mean by how he does warm up?

to me this is normal warm-up /riding the neck down work... not FDO, and not a stretch - it is basically letting the horse go in a horizontal outline..... just lose and happy ..

anyway, it seems we are veering way of course so to speak, so i will leave it at that.

meupatdoes

Oct. 23, 2009, 12:50 AM

I have been taught that a good stretch is a test. nothing more nothing less

I believe that a good stretch is both a test AND an essential piece of the puzzle.

You go down the long side developing shoulder-in with some 10m voltes interspersed, then you do a stretchy circle (or, my little tweaked version, the "stretchy serpentine") both to test the connection and to develop a "relaxation reserve" for the next compression challenge to the horse.

You gymnasticize the horse by riding a constant accordion.
The stretchy parts are as important as the rest.

mbm

Oct. 23, 2009, 01:02 AM

meup - point taken and i agree.

slc2

Oct. 24, 2009, 01:28 AM

I could see where someone who only rides WBs (again, just talking generally here) might think stretching is only useful as a test. As most WBs tend to be naturally loose and supple in their loins.

I cannot agree with this, neither the suggestion that riding warmbloods is connected with not seeing the value of stretching outside of tests, nor that even MOST warmbloods are 'naturally loose and supple in their loins'. All horses need stretching all their parts, as part of their program. Ditto the note from sid below...nothing like cavaletti for 'turning over' a horse.

sid

Oct. 24, 2009, 08:29 AM

Cavaletti work did a world of good for a high-headed, hollowed-out horse I once had. I mean a WORLD of good. Your friend might want to pick up Klimke's little book on the subject.

lstevenson

Oct. 24, 2009, 12:46 PM

I cannot agree with this, neither the suggestion that riding warmbloods is connected with not seeing the value of stretching outside of tests, nor that even MOST warmbloods are 'naturally loose and supple in their loins'.

Sorry slc, but people who have trained lots of different breeds of horses usually know that WBs tend to have naturally loose swinging backs. It's bred into them to be "body movers" rather than the "leg movers" that many other breeds (esp TB) tend to be (note-there are of course always exceptions).

EqTrainer

Oct. 24, 2009, 12:57 PM

I haven't read all the replies so this may be quite redundant but - the problem lies in the horses back, not in her head/neck. They are the symptom of the back being down. When the back comes up, the head goes down.

Unfortunately the new, latest and greatest head obsession is "Poll High At All Times" it used to be "Head Down At Any Cost". Since the head is in front of the eyes, this is what everyone focuses on. Focus on getting her back up first. Then her hind legs stepping under. Then her withers lifting up. And voila! Her head will go down and out.

There are, IMO, two philosophies about this. One is that you ride a lot of exercises to make the back come up. The other is that you develop your seat to bring the horses back up underneath you. Both methods work, the first takes more time and wear and tear on the horse as he is being ridden inverted while you are struggling to make something good happen. The second method is boring as hell because you have to learn to make it happen yourself and not rely on situational gymnastics. However.. the first method is not reliable and the second is. Meaning, once you learn to do this, it's YOUR skill, not the horses, and you can then get on any horse and pick its back up and go on. Then you can use exercises to create further engagement, impulsion, straightness and responsiveness to the aids.

Stretching is part of building longitudinal elasticity in the horse. It is not something that you develop in isolation, meaning you cannot have a horse who collects correctly but does not stretch. The horse has to always, always be stepping to the bit for either thing to happen at all.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Oct. 24, 2009, 01:02 PM

EqTrainer (and others!) great posts!!! Having a TB with a mountain ridge back - so unlike many WBs - this thread has been very useful. But - I think you need both the seat and the exercises (in an ideal world). This is also why I think ground work can be so helpful here.

mbm

Oct. 24, 2009, 09:12 PM

EqTrainer

Oct. 24, 2009, 09:22 PM

eqtrainer - you do know of course that a horse can go in a "natural" outline and still be poll high? that it can also go in a head down (long and low) outline and still be poll high as long as the poll is higher than the withers. ie: "poll high means the poll is the hightest point of the horse"

i agree hand ridden elevation is bad.... but riding poll high isnt.

eta to say - i know you know the above, but the way you worded you post made it sound bad to ride poll high.

Sorry if it sounded that way. What I was referring to, is that things come in and out of fashion, even in riding. And that the current fashion is to focus on the horse staying poll high, no matter what the rest of his body is doing. I think it's because people are now afraid that otherwise they are riding their horses too deep or that they will get behind the bit. It used to be that they were just afraid their horses head was up in the air. Really... I know it's funny but I am observant and I have gotten quite a kick out of watching this turn around!

Anyway, in the case of what the OP is referring to, it is important to stop worrying about what the horses head is doing. When you are unravelling a mess, one of first things you have to do is stop looking at the symptoms and start looking at the cause - which here, is the horses back, not it's head.