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florida foxhunter
Oct. 19, 2009, 11:45 PM
I went to my local fertalizer dealer today to purchase the rye grass seed (the type you spread on top, not till in) to put in my pastures,. I've done this for years with the theory that although there is little nutrition, at least the horses have something to niblble on rather than digging up the grass roots after frost has killed the grass......
I've replanted Tifton 9 (great here in NO FL) Bahaia this summer and it's doing well.........
However my dealer talked me out of putting the rye down saying that rye GRASS is TOXIC to bahia and will eventually kill it.
I mentioned we used to own a golf course and always put rye on the bermuda grass with no problems.....and he said he didn't think the rye grass had the same effect on bermuda.......
I am referring to rye grass as the type you put on top.......he said once the Bahia is really established you can "till in" some rye (the other kind of rye grass) with no problem to the Bahia........
Anyone ever heard of this???
This is a very reputable dealer.......very long established.......and it was the owner himself who told me this!!

MunchkinsMom
Oct. 19, 2009, 11:55 PM
Not according to this website:

http://www.hancockseed.com/seed-varieties-241/bahia-grass-seed-1/pensacola-bahia-grass-seed-85/pensacola-bahia-grass-seed-penkoted-20-lb-pail-88.html

Not according to this one either:

http://www.bahiagrass.com/seeding/index.html

I did some overseeding with rye last year in my Bahia, bermuda, carpetgrass pastures, and there were no problems with the pasture this year.

Jaegermonster
Oct. 20, 2009, 12:01 AM
Nope. I do it every year on my whole place, and if anything the bahia is coming back better and stronger each year. Putting down the rye also seems to help keep the weeds down in the spring as well.

ponygirl
Oct. 20, 2009, 09:31 AM
I went to my local fertalizer dealer today to purchase the rye grass seed (the type you spread on top, not till in) to put in my pastures,. I've done this for years with the theory that although there is little nutrition, at least the horses have something to niblble on rather than digging up the grass roots after frost has killed the grass......
I've replanted Tifton 9 (great here in NO FL) Bahaia this summer and it's doing well.........
However my dealer talked me out of putting the rye down saying that rye GRASS is TOXIC to bahia and will eventually kill it.
I mentioned we used to own a golf course and always put rye on the bermuda grass with no problems.....and he said he didn't think the rye grass had the same effect on bermuda.......
I am referring to rye grass as the type you put on top.......he said once the Bahia is really established you can "till in" some rye (the other kind of rye grass) with no problem to the Bahia........
Anyone ever heard of this???
This is a very reputable dealer.......very long established.......and it was the owner himself who told me this!!

This is news to me but with regards to the "other rkind of rye grass"... he is talking about Wren's Abruzzi Rye which is not a grass seed but a grain. Info found here:
http://www.hancockseed.com/seed-varieties-241/forage-crop-seed-52/oats-wheat-grain-rye-104/fl-401-grain-rye-50-lb-bag-121.html I overseed my pastures with Wren's Abruzzi Rye and use the winter rye in other areas- around the barn, etc.

florida foxhunter
Oct. 20, 2009, 09:33 AM
I am told there is a big difference in the type of rye grass you just broadcast on top of the ground and the kind you till in. The one on top of the ground supposedly has toxins that will eventually damage your bahiagrass!
I, too, have overseeded my pastures (but not fertalized it so it wasn't as robust to kill the bahaia I guess) for years.........although my pastures are okay, I've certainly seen much nicer...........
I couldn't tell from these sights, although they are very interesting, which form of rye they were speaking of............I took a few bags yesterday to do one pasture I"m using for a ring for my Dec. horse show.......it was called "Jumbo Rye" and was just developed by the U of FL...........to be spread ON TOP of the ground......no tilling.

Las Olas
Oct. 20, 2009, 11:17 AM
The only toxins I know of are from Perennial Ryegrass which can cause ryegrass (s)taggers. You would want to use annual ryegrass that can be broadcast. From what I remember from forage classes in college (some time ago, I'm afraid :no:), planting annual ryegrass was actually beneficial for the bahia as it protected it during the winter. Your best bet would be to call someone at UF.

ETA - here's a link to Merck Vet Manual regarding the toxins from Perennial Ryegrass. I am guessing that your feed store owner may have been confused???

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/213103.htm

SkipHiLad4me
Oct. 20, 2009, 01:26 PM
I've never heard that rye will damage bahia specifically. Rye does have what we call allelopathic traits - meaning it can be toxic to other plants. This comes into play mostly when you have rye already seeded into a field and try to seed bermuda or some other grass into it. The rye puts out "toxins" that will stop the other seeds from germinating around it. Perhaps this is what the feed store guy was thinking of. I'm not aware of this being a problem when seeding rye into a pasture grass that's already established though. And this is found with rye (like cereal rye) and not ryegrass.

Friendly Neighborhood Extension Agent

florida foxhunter
Oct. 20, 2009, 06:46 PM
I just replanted my pastures last March. The stand has come in pretty good, although I'm already letting horses graze on it due to lack of no options!!...However, I'm hoping it'll get thicker next spring. That is why the store owner suggested I NOT plant rye this year (and he would have been making the $$ selling it to me). He did specifically mention "toxins" that the ryegrass (that you just throw out......this is confusing to me!) has to Bahia........
I appreciate everyone's help.........
I hate not putting the rye out because the4 horses have already grazed parts down quite low and I'm sure they'll be digging at roots all winter if I don't give them something else to nibble on (I do feed hay too!_)

SkipHiLad4me
Oct. 20, 2009, 07:07 PM
You should be able to "just throw out" the ryegrass too if you're wanting to get winter grazing in there :yes: You'd just seed it more heavily than if you were going to drill it in the soil.

Home Again Farm
Oct. 20, 2009, 07:47 PM
I went by the book and followed my local ag extension office directions and lightly tilled in rye quite a number of years ago. The following spring I had really hindered my bahai and had given a lovely base for weeds to crop up. That was the first and last year I did winter rye.

florida foxhunter
Oct. 20, 2009, 10:11 PM
Okay, now I'm confused!! Aren't rye and ryegrass (the "throw out" kind and the "till in" kind a totally different grass???

Las Olas
Oct. 21, 2009, 11:34 AM
FF, try going back and reading Skips posts knowing the different types of rye. Then it will make sense. "Rye" is generally the term used for cereal Rye (a grain, not a grass). Annual Ryegrass (sometimes referred to as winter ryegrass, some shorten it to winter rye, although confusing) is what you want to broadcast on your fields, generally you need to do this every winter (hence, annual). Perennial ryegrass is referred to in the link I posted regarding ryegrass staggers. Now, as far as Home Again tilling in the ryegrass instead of broadcasting it, I am wondering if the tilling process actually damaged the bahia, and not the grass itself? Maybe Skip could chime in on that theory.

I have been broadcasting annual ryegrass in the winter for 15 years (in KY and FL) and have never had any problems, so what happened to Home Again makes me think something else was involved, or I have been really lucky.

ETA - it's also my understanding that any seed can be tilled into the ground, so it would make no difference whether you are tilling or broadcasting the varieties. I think the reason people till to is to minimize wasting the seed (from run off, birds and bugs, such as ants). I'm certainly no forage expert, so I could be totally off base here.

pj
Oct. 21, 2009, 01:18 PM
Okay, now I'm confused!! Aren't rye and ryegrass (the "throw out" kind and the "till in" kind a totally different grass???

Yes.

We plant the rye GRASS every year in a pasture or two and the only time it's ever hurt anything was one year we didn't mow it when needed and it got tall and was very thick.
The thatch smothered out the normal grass that would have come up that late spring.
All my fault.

The kind you til in is not a grass, it's a grain and you don't want that for grazing, maybe for cows?

The rye grass we use is marshalls and it grows like wild fire. This year I'm only doing one small pasture and the horses will be given an hour a day or so on it. Rye grass is pretty "sugary" from what I've been told and I don't want mine on it all the time.

SkipHiLad4me
Oct. 21, 2009, 09:33 PM
Now, as far as Home Again tilling in the ryegrass instead of broadcasting it, I am wondering if the tilling process actually damaged the bahia, and not the grass itself?

Depending on your definition of tilling, this could be a possibility. Some people will "lightly disc" a field before broadcasting the seed to help the seed get better soil contact. So depending on how much the soil was disturbed it may have upset the root system of the bahia enough to weaken the stand. Bahia has more of a "taproot" type root system vs bermuda which has runners as well as "taproots" and doesn't mind being lightly tilled.

The biggest problem I see people make when planting winter grasses is exactly what PJ ran into. You HAVE to either graze or mow down that rye/ryegrass starting around mid-March or it will shade out the warm season grass below it as it's starting to green up in the spring. You can easily kill out an entire stand of grass by doing this - it will just give up if it doesn't get enough sun.

ponygirl
Oct. 22, 2009, 10:03 AM
Depending on your definition of tilling, this could be a possibility. Some people will "lightly disc" a field before broadcasting the seed to help the seed get better soil contact. So depending on how much the soil was disturbed it may have upset the root system of the bahia enough to weaken the stand. Bahia has more of a "taproot" type root system vs bermuda which has runners as well as "taproots" and doesn't mind being lightly tilled.

The biggest problem I see people make when planting winter grasses is exactly what PJ ran into. You HAVE to either graze or mow down that rye/ryegrass starting around mid-March or it will shade out the warm season grass below it as it's starting to green up in the spring. You can easily kill out an entire stand of grass by doing this - it will just give up if it doesn't get enough sun.

Any chance I can deliberately kill the wild bermuda that is trying to take over my yard? I'd love to kill it off.

pj
Oct. 22, 2009, 11:43 AM
Any chance I can deliberately kill the wild bermuda that is trying to take over my yard? I'd love to kill it off.
Probably not. :D
That common burmuda would probably cut the rye grass, bale it and throw it in a ditch!
I love that stuff.

Home Again Farm
Oct. 22, 2009, 12:23 PM
I had very lightly disced in the rye grass. I suspect that and not mowing enough at the critical time in the spring hindered my bahai. That was before I came to COTH for good advice. Nothing like this bb for learning something new. :yes:

ponygirl
Oct. 22, 2009, 02:24 PM
Probably not. :D
That common burmuda would probably cut the rye grass, bale it and throw it in a ditch!
I love that stuff.

Bummer. It looks like crapola and is trying to smother out everything in it's wake. Of course it's only in my yard.

pj
Oct. 22, 2009, 03:32 PM
Bummer. It looks like crapola and is trying to smother out everything in it's wake. Of course it's only in my yard.

Let the horses at it. Mine love it.

WHOA..wait. You said wild burmuda and I'm thinking common burmuda.
Are you talking about that stuff that resembles burmuda but really isn't? If so I'm with ya. That is horrible stuff.