Can you win Jumpers safely?

[maudie]

Yesterday I was riding at a schooling show on a hot TB mare who can turn on a dime and really go, and very honest. I put in a good Gambler's choice round, clean and safe we only shaved down a stride in the lines and instead opted for trickier turns that were taken at a sane speed. We got 5th.

The winner took a 6 stirde in 3 on a pony. She had her hands up on the horse's neck and was really forward. This is the 2' division btw. Pony chipped in a LOT and rider was just clinging on the pony. Trainer was screaming, telling the rider to make him go FASTER. I was at the rail with another trainer, who I didn't know, and we both cringed and looked at one another with a :eek: expression.

Said trainer also had a rider whose horse refused the Joker and almost came off.

So basically, I want to do well, but I don't want to sacrifice my horse's training and the safety of both of us. Is this possible?

[Tap2Tango]

At the lowest levels, not always. Some people will just cowboy around at 100mph to get the win. There is no real talent involved. Those horses are often saints to put up with the ride they are given. It sucks when you put in a great, fast ride and still can't win. Don't sacrifice your horse and training. Stick to your plan. Later on down the road when you are jumping the bigger stuff, you will beat the crazy yahoos. It may be possible to get a 3 in a 5 when they are 2ft, but at 4ft? Not likely! I once saw a rider do a 2 in a one stride during the Seniors classic at WEF. It was terrifying, and made the BNT's cringe.

[JBTheBest]

Why would you even ask that question? Nothing is worth giving up smart safe riding?

[SkipChange]

That's why most shows don't have a 2' JUMPER division. IMO they really shouldn't exist *exception* I almost never see dangerous riding at the 2ft USPC jumpers because they aren't even timed, just going for clear rounds.

Under no circumstances should you sacrifice your sanity, your horse's soundness, and possibly your life to win a 2ft schooling jumper class. The riders who put in those suicide rounds won't progress up the levels and they will disappear from competition as you move up (well hopefully anyways).

[WorthTheWait95]

At the lower levels it's tough but riding correctly the way you're doing will ensure YOU get to move up the levels while the yahoos are relegated to speed bump classes. Jump offs are won by efficient turns and smart tracks not by leaving strides out or running. You're doing the right thing by learning those skills at your current level so you can apply them when you move up. In the meantime there isn't much you can do about the yahoos. Some days they might get lucky and beat you other days they'll come off, have a stop or some other consequence for their dangerous riding.

[RumoursFollow]

Shame on show management for allowing such a class. Its bad enough that they'd have a 2ft jumper division in the first place.. to make a racing game out out it is lethal and SO irresponsible. What did they do for the joker? Thats just insane. As a professional I would NEVER allow a student to do that class. I have an awesome riding kid that is tiny and has a great scopey small pony that I'd love to let her do a jumper class like I did with my other students this past weekend to prepare for medal finals. Luckily for everyone else though, there is no such thing as 2ft jumpers here. S-C-A-R-Y!!

ETA- I had a student doing the low ch/ad jumpers on a very green horse this summer at whats probably the biggest show Indiana has in a year and when we were schooling, there was a woman and her trainer that shared our barn aisle and ended up doing the same division as my student and just happened to be posted in the (60+ horse) order right around the same time we were. They were so scary in the schooling area, and I kept listening to what the trainer there was telling this woman (who was most assuredly an adult- probably over 40) and I was so honestly scared for her. The horse either stopped, 3-legged, or raced scarily over every schooling area jump. She went in the ring and did exactly what she was told- to race blindly at every single jump. She did OK until she got to the in and out, where she missed so badly to the in oxer that the horse almost flipped over it and then completely crashed and fell over the 2nd jump, which were right at the ingate. They had to take her away on a stretcher. Most of my students who were at the show happened to be up at the ring watching and I felt it was a very important lesson for them to learn to see why I am insistent that they dont run like "bats out of hell" around in the jumpers, regardless of the height.

Lots of big money at small heights ($5,000 classes at big A shows for the 3ft jumpers, really?) and its absolutely nothing but a contest to see who out there has the least regard for their safety. I walked a course once two years ago with a kid and said in reference to a turn we saw people watching that if she tried that turn it was totally unsafe and would probably have a result and that I felt it was much safer and better to go around to get to it. She ended up third. Girl who won it took the crazy option, three legged the jump, almost flipped, but somehow the horse left it up. 2nd place went around like us but was faster than we were. 4th -7th all tried to beat the frst girl with the short turn. Two fell off, one crashed it badly, and one made it over and had a rail at another jump. Not the kind of odds I want when showing, and I dont want to explain to the parents why I told their child to do a turn that caused their kid (or horse) a serious injury.

[ontarget]

Amen to you for thinking of yourself and your horse before the competition! I have been apalled by some of the schooling shows I have seen with riders tearing around like kamikazes, and it's just an accident waiting to happen. At the lower levels, unfortunately, it is entirely possible to ride terribly (and dangerously!) and win. It's like a competition of the fearless and stupid. I feel like every jumper division below 3'6" should have at least an optimum time class as part of the division to encourage thought rather than danger. Any jumpers below 3' shouldn't exist unless it's optimum time or not timed, IMHO.

Unfortunately, it really doesn't get better until you get to the height where people really will have accidents unless they have somewhat of a clue. The Childrens/AA jumpers (3'6") is really the beginning of when riders have to pay attention and slow down or else they're going to have accidents and pull rails, but sometimes (actually, a lot of times) even the 3'6" classes scare me.

If you want to do well at that level without sacrificing safety, my advice would be to switch to hunters or equitation until you can graduate through the ranks. It's not worth it, and so long as classes like that are still around and bad riding is rewarded with a win, it's not going to change.

Good luck and stay safe.

[maudie]

I would NEVER gun this horse around a course, just for clarification, I'm asking if I can be competitive at this level without trying to commit suicide. I think I'm going to shoot for 2'6 next year, and work with this horse over the winter. She's not mine, so I only ride once a week.

Are the low jumper classes even worth it? Classes are less than $10, so it's not a huge loss.

I also want to say that not all of the riders in the class were riding like this, I'll admit that there were a few who beat me fair and square and others who rode smart but didn't make the cut. It seemed like they were stemming from one trainer.

During the schooling show, there were "speed penalties" for x-country, is there anything like this for Jumpers?

[supershorty628]

At the lower levels, sadly, sometimes it isn't possible. People are maniacs, and at heights where you don't have to actually ride, the maniacs will beat the people who are more conservative. Once you start getting to the 4' and up, it gets a little less frightening.

This is a winning round I had in the 1.30m jumpers in Vermont this year. Not crazy fast... just efficient. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc_7sb7N-FQ

[MistyBlue]

Are they worth it for wins? Probably not. But they are worth it for experience.
So you might not win against the insane speed demons. You're really not losing anything, but gaining experience. In navigating the courses, learning how to choose options and how to approach different obstacles and even the scary riders offer an education on what not to do. :winkgrin:
Compete against yourself at this level and enjoy what you do for the smaller cost.
When you move up levels, the yahoos start weeding out a bit (but there will always be some, however as the heights go up they knock more rails down) and you'll be far more prepared.
And remember...any jumping course is 90% flat and 10% jump. On the flat is where it's won and it's won riding smart, not fast. :D

ETA...Supershorty...nice rides! :) Nice horse too.

[ontarget]

I'm asking if I can be competitive at this level without trying to commit suicide

I'm sorry, but not from what I've seen.

During the schooling show, there were "speed penalties" for x-country, is there anything like this for Jumpers?

There should be, but again, no. I wish they could implement a time penalty for going too fast; something like that would certainly make the lower levels a little safer.

[HARROLDhasmyheart]

I rode in the lower level jumpers (3'), was quite safe, and was quite often champion. It is possible, I just chose to make up time in the turns and jumping at an angle rather than riding 93875983759875984 x the speed of light to make it around the course.

[SkipChange]

Are they worth it for wins? Probably not. But they are worth it for experience.
So you might not win against the insane speed demons. You're really not losing anything, but gaining experience. In navigating the courses, learning how to choose options and how to approach different obstacles and even the scary riders offer an education on what not to do. :winkgrin:
Compete against yourself at this level and enjoy what you do for the smaller cost.
When you move up levels, the yahoos start weeding out a bit (but there will always be some, however as the heights go up they knock more rails down) and you'll be far more prepared.
And remember...any jumping course is 90% flat and 10% jump. On the flat is where it's won and it's won riding smart, not fast. :D

What she said. You could always try a few Equitation classes as well for the fun of it. Good for you for being aware that their style is dangerous and good luck on moving up to 2'6" (although you will probably still see a fair number of yahoos at this level, hopefully there will be less).

[Haalter]

During the schooling show, there were "speed penalties" for x-country, is there anything like this for Jumpers?Not "speed penalties" per se, but you don't win optimum time classes by galloping like a bat out of hell. At a recent show I attended, ALL the jumper classes under 3'6" were optimum time which I thought was great. The winners basically looked like equitation rounds, and the few that ran around "for practice" were out of the ribbons.

[Alterrain]

A lot of A shows now have optimum time classes for anything under a meter. And optimum time jump off classes, or optimum time speed classes. In a way that format does involve "speed penalties" like you mentioned. Unfortunately a lot of schooling/ lower rated horse shows foresake this safer format for the more "exciting" (read: dangerous) formats that keep the line at the food stand filled.

[Alterrain]

What haalter said. Posted at the same time. ;)

[joiedevie99]

Jumpers below 3' should be clear round only.

[Wizard of Oz's]

It's very frusturating but what really can you do? At my local circuit we have a 20-something girl who rides multiple horses in each lower jumper division and runs at every jump. Needless to say, she wins most classes and takes home numerous year-end awards, but in all honesty she sucks as a rider and everyone knows it, so we just kind of write her off. We call her "the yahoo"

[Mac123]

As a general rule, small fences breed mediocre riding.

Now, before someone gets their panties in a wad, there is a time and a place for small fences.

But in America, we have this idea that "everyone should be able to do it." No, everyone shouldn't be able to do it. Only riders of appropriate skill to safely navigate a course to fulfill the intended purpose of the class should be able to do it. Whatever happened to working hard and earning the priveledge, first to show, then in the hunters and eq, and then the jumpers?

The purpose of small jumper classes is for experience and mileage. That has, of course, been bastardized, and now we have every person who thinks jumpers are an excuse for riding poorly making sport of what should be a respected division. A 2' division is heinous and breeds the very traits everyone wants to eliminate.

OP, that was not directed at you, off my soapbox now. To answer your question, no, except for luck, you are not going to go win a 2' jumper class riding correctly. There are too many yahoos out there. It's up to you - if you want to do the classes for experience, then do them, but let a good ribbon be a surprise and not an expectation.

If you were my student and your circumstances warranted it, I would encourage you not to show right now and to put that money towards additional lessons that would enable you to move up the levels a little faster. It would be a more prudent use of money and a more efficient move up the ladder. Just something to think about.

It's not really about winning at 2', it's about riding correctly so that when you're jumping 3'6 or 4' you can win because your basiscs are there.

[Lostboy]

I would like to see all low and green jumper classes use Argentine rule (optimal time) I HATE seeing people turn and burn over knee high fences.. it's dangerous and most of the time poor riding.. I can't even see the point of offering 2 ft jumpers .. if they need another baby class made it handy hunters or something. Sometimes I feel people move into the very low jumper ring because they can't count steps in a line and swap leads at the end of the ring or find 1 out of 8 spots, so their instructor puts them in jumpers where it isn't a penalty. guess it's ok to forget about equitation and let your horse be fast and flat when you really really want that 25 cent ribbon to show your buddies at school.

[Renn/aissance]

I would NEVER gun this horse around a course, just for clarification, I'm asking if I can be competitive at this level without trying to commit suicide. I think I'm going to shoot for 2'6 next year, and work with this horse over the winter. She's not mine, so I only ride once a week.

Are the low jumper classes even worth it? Classes are less than $10, so it's not a huge loss.

Low jumper classes are worth it to you for the experience you gain navigating a jumper course at a low height. You are probably not going to win ribbons doing it because there are too many uneducated yahoos who are gunning for a Darwin Award, not a blue ribbon. Bless their horses. However, the experience you get in these classes will prepare you to put in a quality ride over higher fences.

Go on Youtube sometime and watch Meredith Michaels Beerbaum, Rodrigo Pessoa, Beezie Madden, Laura Kraut ride Grands Prix. Excellent examples of fast, clean, winning, and safe. The safe, sane ride you practice at the lower heights is not that different from what they are doing over the big sticks.

[Mac123]

I would like to see all low and green jumper classes use Argentine rule (optimal time) I HATE seeing people turn and burn over knee high fences.. it's dangerous and most of the time poor riding.. I can't even see the point of offering 2 ft jumpers .. if they need another baby class made it handy hunters or something. Sometimes I feel people move into the very low jumper ring because they can't count steps in a line and swap leads at the end of the ring or find 1 out of 8 spots, so their instructor puts them in jumpers where it isn't a penalty. guess it's ok to forget about equitation and let your horse be fast and flat when you really really want that 25 cent ribbon to show your buddies at school.
Great point. Seriously, THIS is the problem!!! If the kid can't count steps, swap leads, and find a distance, then why the hell are they even showing?

[SkipChange]

I like this optimal time rule you speak of...sounds like a good suggestion for our shows since *winces* there is a 2ft jumpers class.

[Peggy]

As my trainer said as I prepared to enter my 2'6" jumper class, if you win this you're in trouble:D

[Bluehorsesjp]

I would NEVER gun this horse around a course, just for clarification, I'm asking if I can be competitive at this level without trying to commit suicide. I think I'm going to shoot for 2'6 next year, and work with this horse over the winter. She's not mine, so I only ride once a week.

Are the low jumper classes even worth it? Classes are less than $10, so it's not a huge loss.

I also want to say that not all of the riders in the class were riding like this, I'll admit that there were a few who beat me fair and square and others who rode smart but didn't make the cut. It seemed like they were stemming from one trainer.

During the schooling show, there were "speed penalties" for x-country, is there anything like this for Jumpers?

At some shows the 2'-2'6 jumpers are a optimum time which keeps the kids from running around the course at breakneck speed.
But honestly if you want to win a ribbon, no you probably won't be all that competitive. If you want to ride correctly, improve your riding and experience what a jumper class can be like then keep at it.
horse showing shouldn't be all about wining ribbons. It is about riding your best.

[Kato]

I agree with all the above posters. I wanted to move my somewhat green horse and myself up to 3'6". It was a lifetime goal of mine to jump 3'6". When we first showed, we started at 2'3". It took a year and a half to get to 3'6" (just to get around, another year to do it well). Every single show I would want to win, and my trainer would look at me and say "do you want to move up?" The rule was, I did the proper jumper course at the proper pace, or she would not let us move up when we were ready for it. Thank goodness she said it almost every single class, it was so tempting sometimes to yahoo-it, even just a little!! I mean, we're all human, we all want to win! But it was soooo worth it, today (3 years later), I am starting to compete at 4' and all those folks who used to beat us are still yahooing around in the little ring while I get to ride in the big ring! :) Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too! So to the OP, it's hard, and you may not win, but you will be consistent and in a few years you will leave your former competitors in the dust - you will move up and they will not.

[gg4918]

I used to be one those yahoos...with a trainer who only encouraged it. My old barn and I would role into horse shows and people would LOOK for excuses to prevent us from showing.
I switched trainers and was promptly taken to a horse show and thrown in the 2'9" jumper division. I won all my classes...by doing a 1 stride in a 2 stride and other stupid things..such as jumping a jump while parallel to it. I came out the ring ecstatic to be champion. Only to be immediately told that if I do that again that I won't be allowed to do jumpers anymore and that other people would be put on my horse since he's such a saint.
I made a deal with my trainer: stop the yahooing and he'll let me move up.
I went from the pre-prelim jumpers to the jr/ao jumpers in less than 8 months.
Through that entire transition, once I erased the cowboy style riding, I didn't start to win classes again until I reached the 3'6", and that was only by riding SMART, knowing when leaving out a stride was ok (NOT IN A 2 STRIDE!) and how to slice jumps properly (NOT WHEN YOU'RE PARALLEL!).

In conclusion: if you're winning at the 3ft or lower classes...fix your riding.

[fordtraktor]

I can't imagine why anyone would want to really go for it at any level below 3'. Those are more for introducing a horse to colored jumps and bending lines, IMO.

At the 3'6 level, you can definitely win without being unsafe. Most people who are really running can't make the turns, and the turns are where you tend to win those classes. A smart, efficient course will usually always beat the yahoos unless the course designer makes it too open and gallopy (a mistake at the lower levels, I think).

I will say I did very well on my ponies in those classes, and on one of them would often add a stride in the in and out or triple. He simply didn't have the scope to clear a 3'6 out oxer set on a longish stride. Adding the stride was much safer than trying to make a go for it long, that's how you swim through and flip horses. But I always set him up for it -- really shorten into a bouncy canter coming in, tightish distance on the in fence, and two short but even strides in the combination. I don't see a problem with that and don't think I was scary. Horse was very well schooled on the flat so adjustments were easy. Others may have disagreed if they were judging just by the fact that we did two in a one or whatever.

[Hunter Mom]

Sorry folks, but some of us do the small jumpers at local shows FOR FUN! We don't all race around like crazy folks, nor do we all leave our common sense at the stalls. Some of us don't have horses who can jump 3'6" or bigger. Some of US can't jump that big. Why, then, should I ever degrade myself enough to do small jumpers?

1. My horse has not got the step to be really successful in hunters. We add. Nicely & smoothly, but we still add. Doesn't matter in jumpers.
2. I like the challenge of different courses and different fences. Hate to say it, but outside-diagonal-outside-diagonal gets old.
3. My horse simply isn't scopey enough to do the big stuff. She's not a huge WB - just an average QH/TB. I love her anyhow. She takes care of me.

My trainer would kill me if I went in and rode unsafely. I ride it like an eq course, which means I ride smart. So do almost all of the riders in our circuit. I can only think of one (who happens to be a trainer, BTW, riding in the 3'3" and up) who doesn't ride in a way that most would consider smart and safe. You know what - I beat her kids. So does my daughter who we let do a local jumper day this summer at a trot.

FWIW, the small jumper classes at our local shows are always well attended. People like a change of pace, even if we're not doing the big stuff.

[JinxyFish313]

I find that its not just "small" divisions that attract the yahoos. I see it in anything under 4'. Some of those people are buying really talented and saintly horses that will figure it out on their own when chased around at 3'9" or so. Now THAT is scary. When I first started doing childrens jumpers back in the day it was hard enough for most kids to get around clear, nevermind fast. I would routinely get mid-pack ribbons on my slow as hell junior hunter horse because we took the careful route around the course. Fast we were not. Now I feel like there's no way the "smart" ride gets you a ribbon.

[War Admiral]

As my trainer said as I prepared to enter my 2'6" jumper class, if you win this you're in trouble:D

I love it! :lol:

So, pretty much, that's your answer. Take it slow, be safe, know you'll get your revenge later when you & horse are ready to move up.

[Madeline]

Great point. Seriously, THIS is the problem!!! If the kid can't count steps, swap leads, and find a distance, then why the hell are they even showing?

Maybe, just maybe, they're showing jumpers because it's more fun. No politics. No having to have the Right clothes. The Right trainer hooting at the rail. The Right expensive warmblood. The Right judge.

I can see the value of optimal time classes. The time must be realistic, not glacial, and the penalty for going too fast should be greater than the penalty for being too slow. Say, 1 time fault for the first second too fast, 2 faults for additional seconds too fast, up to 5 faults per second for time more than 5 seconds too fast. 1 fault per second slow. Again, the key here is that the optimal time is achieveable, but not too conservative. After all, you do want to encourage efficient and correct riding.

[JinxyFish313]

Counting steps, swapping leads and finding distances aren't just for hunter princesses, they are fundamentals of jumping a course.

You shouldn't be showing in anything bigger than short stirrup if you can't do those things....they have nothing to do with having the right trainer/warmblood/judge.

[Trixie]

The Childrens/AA jumpers (3'6") is really the beginning of when riders have to pay attention and slow down or else they're going to have accidents and pull rails, but sometimes (actually, a lot of times) even the 3'6" classes scare me.

You would think, but mostly I find it pretty inexcusable that I’ve won 2’9” divisions by virtue of being the ONLY CLEAN ROUND. And there were plenty of others in the class. And I see people throwing rails at 2’ and 2’6”.


It's not really about winning at 2', it's about riding correctly so that when you're jumping 3'6 or 4' you can win because your basiscs are there.

Agree, but because of the access to lower divisions, sometimes 2’ becomes an end goal, rather than a stepping stone. However, even if you never intend to be a 4’ jumper rider, you can still use a 2’ division as its intended – to learn and to have fun.

Our goal for our horses have always been to “ride it like an eq course.” That means, focus on making excellent turns, finding good distances, and riding as smoothly and polished as possible while still riding efficiently. My horse is a hunter, but when we do local shows there are rarely 3’6” hunter divisions, and since I’d like him to do 3’6” this year, we’ve done some jumpers. We’ve never won by racing around – there’s no POINT in upping the pace and being dangerous on a horse I’ve spent four years working on “slow and smooth” with. However, we’ve done quite nicely by cantering around at a nice hunter pace.

That being said, we got our butts kicked in a 2’9” class we used as a warm up, by a child on a pony that looked like they were going to eat dirt at any second.

[Trixie]

Great point. Seriously, THIS is the problem!!! If the kid can't count steps, swap leads, and find a distance, then why the hell are they even showing?

Maybe, just maybe, they're showing jumpers because it's more fun. No politics. No having to have the Right clothes. The Right trainer hooting at the rail. The Right expensive warmblood. The Right judge.

We still need to take the sport seriously, as a sport. Being unable to kick a ball in soccer or hit one in baseball wouldn't get you very far. Counting steps, swapping leads, and finding a distance are BASICS of this sport.

Notice it's "counting steps" not "making the strides." It's figuring out what your horse can fit in safely off your eye, and then making it happen smoothly.

Has nothing to do with having the right anything or anything political. Has everything to do with riding safely and correctly.

[caradino]

it's unfortunate that these low level classes aren't USEF sanctioned, if they were we could all lobby for a rule to have everything under 3' be OPTIMUM TIME. i don't understand why managers feel it's a good call to not run these classes using the optimum time rule... just stupid. :confused:

but i'm another one who does the low jumpers! so don't be knockin' all of us!

i do it because right now i'm riding schoolies in group lessons once a week that aren't nice enough to do hunters (which is what i'd rather do!), and the 2'3-2'6 jumper classes are the best fit for me and the horses that i ride right now. my instructor is great and she wants us to ride each course like an eq class.. smart turns, flowing rhythm, good comfortable distances to everything. she never encourages excessive speed, and allows us to show because we want to, it's fun, and it's a good experience. my first time out i had time penalties in EVERY class because i went so slow, just trying to get around safely! i'm showing again next month, and my plan is to ride a little more aggressively with a bit more pace, but definitely not running hell-bent-for-leather. i'd love to move up to the 2'9-3'0 classes next year! but i know that running around like crazy to win won't get me there.

[Mac123]

Maybe, just maybe, they're showing jumpers because it's more fun. No politics. No having to have the Right clothes. The Right trainer hooting at the rail. The Right expensive warmblood. The Right judge.


You completely miss the point, Madeline. This has absolutely nothing to do with fun, politics, the right horse, nothing. This has to do with riding correctly.

The jumper ring should NEVER be an excuse for riding incorrectly because it doesn't matter.

My point was that a rider who cannot count steps, swap leads, and find a decent distance shouldn't be showing!!!! They should be at home learning these most elementary and basic functions of riding.

Must everything in this sport be dumbed down??? Seriously!!!

[mvp]

People *need* to vote with their feet and their wallets.

There is a place for the 2'6" jumpers, IMO. Those courses are good for the ponied and honied set who want a goal. Let horses fairly matched in terms of their animals' rpms (stride length vs. speed) compete amongst themselves. I can see why a pony jock who didn't know better and couldn't buy better or bigger might want to run in order to win against someone on a green horse there to school.

If you are making a Bigger And Better jumper, why are you showing at 2'? Jumping bigger can be done in the hunters and eq if you really want to show. You can also go in "hors de concours" if you just want to experience the particular course set up for the jumpers. But really, what greenies of the 2' variety need to be doing is getting a solid dressage foundation.

You also should remember that the goal of the jumpers (like all divisions, really) is to train the horse. I had a 2'6" to 3' *only*, horse-sized project once and did do a 3' jumper division once on him. We went relatively slowly, but turned hard, lengthened and shortened as needed. We even did well in the Power and Speed class because I had gotten this jumper-virgin very, very broke. It was one of my proudest moments. I rode to be competitive but in the way I knew how: By being accurate and riding the horse I had to the best of my ability and to up to, but not beyond, his mental and physical limits.

If you don't want what the lower jumper divisions are offering, don't waste your time, your money and your horse's legs.

[Madeline]

You completely miss the point, Madeline. This has absolutely nothing to do with fun, politics, the right horse, nothing. This has to do with riding correctly.

The jumper ring should NEVER be an excuse for riding incorrectly because it doesn't matter.

My point was that a rider who cannot count steps, swap leads, and find a decent distance shouldn't be showing!!!! They should be at home learning these most elementary and basic functions of riding.

Must everything in this sport be dumbed down??? Seriously!!!

Mac, Jinxyfish, Trixie:

I think you are all missing my point. Where did I say that it was OK to ride badly just because you're showing jumpers? I simply pointed out that for some people, myself included, it is more fun to show low level jumpers than hunters. More interesting courses. No politics. No penalty for lack of fashion. Reward for good function and efficiency. What's not to like about that?

When I see Level 1 jumpers scaring me, I don't think that I'm seeing riders who can't count steps and swap leads, I'm seeing the result of "trainers" who haven't got the backbone to stand up to students and their parents and say "No, you and Tiffany and Black Beauty are not ready for prime time. Let's stay home and do more lessons." It could be trainer ineptitude. Or just plain trainer greed.

Just because some (many?) who show low level jumpers ride stupid, that's no reason to criticize all of them and take away their toys.

[eclipse]

I used to win on my old mare at 3ft, then moved up to 3ft3 won there & then to the 1.10 & won there, want to know why? Because we were riding properly AND safely! My trainer would of had my head if we'd ran around the courses like some of the yahoos we watched. Did I win all the time? Not on your life, but we did win a lot. And we won by riding smart! My mare was a natural speed horse, but not by running. She was efficient in the air. She didn't have a huge bascule & didn't overjump. She was one of those horses that just did the height she had too & came back to me when I asked her too (most of the time)! We sliced out turns when we needed too & we jumped on angles when it was safe to do so, but no where did we take out strides in lines & definatley not multiple strides...yikes!

Over the years, I've seen those scary riders the OP talked about & you want to know something. Most of them are have either quit the sport all together as they've never progressed or they are still running around 2ft6 wondering why they aren't going to the next level! And, they are still with the trainers that the rest of us know to stay away from! :eek:

[Trixie]

. Where did I say that it was OK to ride badly just because you're showing jumpers? I simply pointed out that for some people, myself included, it is more fun to show low level jumpers than hunters.

You were responding to Mac’s post, and quoting it, which was specific to bad riding. I think that would be why you got the responses that you did.

I also don't think anyone criticized all lower level jumper riders - only the ones who have not mastered the basics and insist on therefore showing where the basics don't technically count.

[Hunter Mom]

I also don't think anyone criticized all lower level jumper riders - only the ones who have not mastered the basics and insist on therefore showing where the basics don't technically count.

Really?
"I can't imagine why anyone would want to really go for it at any level below 3'. Those are more for introducing a horse to colored jumps and bending lines, IMO."

"IMO they really shouldn't exist "

"Shame on show management for allowing such a class. Its bad enough that they'd have a 2ft jumper division in the first place.. "

Like I said - some of us do them for the enjoyment of something different where the fact that we're not on a Warmblood-Moose cross won't count against us.

[JinxyFish313]

2' hunters and eq are about who gets around safely and consistent. The riding and quality is so poor in those divisions that being a strong rider gets you a ribbon. Having fancy clothes and warmbloods have nothing to do with it, ESPECIALLY at that level.


I too believe 2' jumpers are ridiculous. There's just no point to them. Even if you're bringing along a green jumper, a 2' course is not conducive to his/her training at all because all it does is teach them to rush. And if you're smart and going with the safe, quiet, educational ride...well you can do the very same thing in the hunters or eq.

Even 2'6" seems silly to me. But if you must have sub 3' jumper classes, I agree they should be optimum time for the safety of all involved.

[Trixie]

I’d say, it’s a fair point. Why would one want to “go for it” and GUN IT over 2’ fences? What is that teaching you? Now, “going for it” in the sense that you’re making the most correct tight inside turn, fine. But this post was in reference to riding dangerously and fast over what are essentially speed bumps.

This post:

That's why most shows don't have a 2' JUMPER division. IMO they really shouldn't exist *exception* I almost never see dangerous riding at the 2ft USPC jumpers because they aren't even timed, just going for clear rounds.

Was directly in reference to the fact that being outright encouraged to gun it over 2’ fences perpetuates dangerous riding. Which it does. It then offers a solution – that that problem could be eradicated by making it optimum time. That way, you could still work on your nice eq class turns without being encouraged to ride like a scary speed demon.

And this:

"Shame on show management for allowing such a class. Its bad enough that they'd have a 2ft jumper division in the first place.. "

Same thing.

People don’t think they should be offered for that very reason. It’s NOT a personal criticism of “ALL” 2’ riders. It’s a simple commentary on the fact that these divisions, the way that they’re set up currently, specifically reward the wrong things for beginner riders and green horses.

[Madeline]

How about a response to the substantive suggestion I proposed:

I can see the value of optimal time classes. The time must be realistic, not glacial, and the penalty for going too fast should be greater than the penalty for being too slow. Say, 1 time fault for the first second too fast, 2 faults for additional seconds too fast, up to 5 faults per second for time more than 5 seconds too fast. 1 fault per second slow. Again, the key here is that the optimal time is achieveable, but not too conservative. After all, you do want to encourage efficient and correct riding.

Easy to administer, encourages appropriate speed, penalizes excessive speed enthusiastically... provides an appropriate learning experience re. pace.

[Trixie]

Madeline, I agree with that idea.

[JinxyFish313]

I think thats making it overly complicated. 1 fault for every second or part of a second over or under the optimum time.

[Madeline]

I think thats making it overly complicated. 1 fault for every second or part of a second over or under the optimum time.

You have to make the penalty for going too fast greater than the penalty for going too slow. And you really want to ding the racers. Easy to administer with a little chart or a spreadsheet program on a netbook for the judge/timer.

[myvanya]

There is a place for the sub 3' jumper classes- as an example...a 9yo girl who is just learning to ride who rides my 24yo gelding who is a morgan (and as such places terribly in the hunter ring). She loves jumping. She will ride him in the 2'6" jumpers and probably in some eq but because she can do the jumpers for lower cost she will start with that as she has very little money. Now the 2'6" jumpers here are optimum time so a well ridden course is usually rewarded over the idiotic turn and burn...

Unfortunately in my division (with my green horse) which is 3'-3'3" right now, there are a bunch of people who will sacrifice the safety of their horses or themselves for a ribbon. I won't (though since my horse is green we sometimes don't look as polished as I would like) make that sacrifice and I rarely win (I admit it...sometimes due to my needing to improve my riding but sometimes due to yahoos willing to be more insane than I am...). Unless you have a sanity test before going nito jumper classes I'm not sure you will ever be rid of that until the higher levels- but the only way I knwo of to get to the higher levels is to get experience at the lower levels. And I enjoy showing, so I will show and not win and be ok with that until I get the confidence and ability to show higher. Then I will go to higher levels and hopefully be moderately well prepared.

So all that to say... we may just have to let the unsafe people be unsafe and send jingles to their horses and trust that they will not move on. It doesn't seem right to take away classes that can and do have legitimte uses for learning just because some people abuse them. And getting the USEF involved is just going to mean those classes will cost more and shut more people out of showing. I know showing is a priviledge not a right but it seems a shame to keep adding more and more fees on when we don't really need to do so...

[pinkpony321]

As a hunter rider who this year started showing in the jumper ring, it is really very frustrating to go out and put in a good ride in a class and be beaten by the yahoos who just get lucky. These are the folks who either win or crash every time out...its so dangerous and i cannot believe that their trainers endorse this sort of behaviour.
This weekend, I was showing in a AA jumper division and watched one woman whos only method of staying on over the jumps was to balance on her horses face get ribbons in all of the classes- she just happened to be on horses who were a.) saints and b.) capable of doing much more than 3'6" with the right rider. It really was atrocious and frightening! I was SURE she was going to hit the ground after every jump but luckily she had those reins to desperately hang on to.
Lucky for me, my horse is green, but game, so I think I am going to move up a division next time and aim to be doing the A/Os by february, just so I can see some sort of reward for actually riding smartly. We all make mistakes and have our scary moments, but you shouldn't be praised for being reckless or dangerous every time out.

[JinxyFish313]

You have to make the penalty for going too fast greater than the penalty for going too slow. And you really want to ding the racers. Easy to administer with a little chart or a spreadsheet program on a netbook for the judge/timer.

I don't think you need to penalize speeders over slow pokes...both should affect your score equally as neither is ideal.

[Haalter]

You have to make the penalty for going too fast greater than the penalty for going too slow. And you really want to ding the racers. Easy to administer with a little chart or a spreadsheet program on a netbook for the judge/timer.Why try to reinvent the wheel? I think the Optimum Time classes work just fine as they are, thank you. Closest to optimum time wins, next closest is second whether they're a second faster or a second slower, etc.

Think about this: if these classes are used properly as a stepping stone for someone who aspires to go 3'6"+, all of a sudden they go from being penalized for being a second or two fast to being rewarded for the fastest time in the jump off when they move up? Sounds strange to me. And as I saw at the last show where I had some students showing in optimum time classes, the yahoos were something like 20 seconds under optimum time, placing them far out of the ribbons - penalty enough IMO. And don't forget, the judge/steward is certainly allowed to eliminate any competitor for unsafe riding - I wish this option were exercised more often!

I think the current optimum time system rewards good, careful riding at the lower levels. I also think that for those folks who find the low level jumper classes more appealing than the low level hunters, and have no desire to move up the levels, it's great when sensible riding is rewarded in this way.

[Everythingbutwings]

I understand your frustration but I watched Trixie in 2007 take our green mare in classes of 20 or more entries and put in lovely safe, well executed rounds and win more often than not without going insanely fast and throwing proper form out of the window.

As a hunter rider who this year started showing in the jumper ring, it is really very frustrating to go out and put in a good ride in a class and be beaten by the yahoos who just get lucky.

Planning your course, knowing your horse's abilities, learning by watching those ahead of you and putting to good use half halts, balanced turns and direct lines is usually much faster than just speeding around willy nilly.

I agree, Optimum time for the lower heights would improve things. Even one class per division of OT would have consequences affecting champion and reserve.

At a recent local show, we watched three past Olympic squad members compete and they certainly showed good equitation. We learned quite a lot just by watching. :)

[pinkpony321]

I'm not saying that it can't be done..my horse and I have certainly had our share of wins without being crazy dangerous, and I agree with what you're saying, however, our wins came during the classes when the yahoos happened to miss a little too hard and wipe out, eliminating themselves.

eta: Everythingbutwings, i too was at a local show (in VA) a few weeks ago with three olympic squad members in attendance ...I think we must travel in teh same circles:)

[Everythingbutwings]

That's the beauty of it, you'll move up and they won't be able to! :winkgrin:

I'm not saying that it can't be done..my horse and I have certainly had our share of wins without being crazy dangerous, and I agree with what you're saying, however, our wins came during the classes when the yahoos happened to miss a little too hard and wipe out, eliminating themselves.

[Madeline]

Why try to reinvent the wheel? I think the Optimum Time classes work just fine as they are, thank you. Closest to optimum time wins, next closest is second whether they're a second faster or a second slower, etc.

.

Since this thread started with ranting about how unfair it was to reward the fast yahoos in the 3' and under jumpers, I simply proposed a system thart penalized them for their yahooness. Sorry If that offends you.

madeline
(my real name)

[JinxyPoo]

How about a response to the substantive suggestion I proposed:

I can see the value of optimal time classes. The time must be realistic, not glacial, and the penalty for going too fast should be greater than the penalty for being too slow. Say, 1 time fault for the first second too fast, 2 faults for additional seconds too fast, up to 5 faults per second for time more than 5 seconds too fast. 1 fault per second slow. Again, the key here is that the optimal time is achieveable, but not too conservative. After all, you do want to encourage efficient and correct riding.

Easy to administer, encourages appropriate speed, penalizes excessive speed enthusiastically... provides an appropriate learning experience re. pace.
good idea, but it's problematic when the class is open to horses of all shapes and sizes. I do 3'6 but one show around here always has one optimum time class per division. My horse is tall and has a HUGE step and I have to go sooooo slow to come anywhere near the optimum. Then the ponies still have to run like idiots or they'll be too slow.

[Haalter]

Madeline, no offense taken. With all due respect, you asked for feedback, I gave it. Wasn't trying to be snarky, just voicing my opinion that the current Optimum Time system is a great leap forward, it works well to eliminate the yahoos from ribbons and championships, and trying to change it to a system that is a little confusing and rewards a disorganized (read slow) ride over a ride that is a few sconds less than optimum time doesn't make sense to me. What I *do* think needs to be changed is that there should be no speed classes or timed jumpoff classes under 3'6".

Do you really need to know my real first name to take this type of post seriously?

[Sing Mia Song]

I've lobbied to change our lower level jumpers to optimum time, but how does one calculate the optimum time? Do you walk the course with a measuring wheel and then do meters-per-minute? And what do you feel is an appropriate speed?

[Haalter]

Sing, optimum time is addressed in the USEF rule book.

JP128 specifies that course should be measured with a wheel or other measuring device.

JP129-2: "The Time allowed is based on a minimum speed of 350 meters per minute (382 yards per minute), 328 m/m (360 yd/min) for Pony Jumpers, or in very small or indoor arenas.) If a speed other than 350 m/m is to be used, it must be printed in the prize list."
JP129-6: "Optimum Time. For classes scored under Table IV the optimum time is defined as 4 seconds less than the Time Allowed."

Personally, I think that 328 m/m or thereabouts would be appropriate for classes at 3' or under at a schooling show. Don't forget that the judge can adjust the time allowed after 3 horses have completed the course without jumping penalties - see JP129 for details on this. Just FYI, if you don't have a measuring wheel, they have nice ones (both electronic and manual) at Home Depot that are considerably cheaper than what you'd find in a horse catalog.

Additional rules for optimum time (Table IV) classes are detailed in JP148.

[kellidahorsegirl]

I like that shows offer lower classes...then people who are scared to go higher, horses who can't go higher, etc have something they can enter.

I think its VERY possible to win lower levels without haulin' around too.

For me, it really bothers me when the yahoos are rewarded with ribbons for riding like morons. Now that they've won,, the majority of that type of person runs around saying they're awesome because they won. Whether or not they ride well or crappy is beside their point...they have a RIBBON...*gasp* they MUST be good.

On the flip of that point though.....they'll get theirs... They are the ones who look like idiots for bragging about crappy riding or thinking they're above others. It is SO important for those of us who want to improve and make it to the top (whatever our 'top' may be) to stick to our guns...stick to our training plans, keep our horses SAFE and healthy...along with ourselves.

It sucks to get beat by someone who doesn't deserve it,,,but you can go to sleep at night knowing your horse still likes you ;)

[mvp]

Remind me why this rant started?

Who cares if someone who regularly courts death wins on a given day?

Don't you think they will victimize themselves sooner or later? Why do they need your attention, judgement or regulation?

[Haalter]

Who cares if someone who regularly courts death wins on a given day?

Why do they need your attention, judgement or regulation?Lots of reasons that this isn't a MYOB scenario. Some of us manage/sponsor/judge shows where we have a vested interest in keeping things safe from a liability as well as a moral standpoint. Some of us are trainers who are tired of explaining to students and parents why their kid is never in the ribbons and the scary ones are winning - what kind of show organizations are we supporting if we allow this to go on?

I am generally a very MYOB type of person, but I feel pretty strongly about dropping speed classes under 3'6" from any show I am involved in managing and voicing my opinion at shows that I patronize as a trainer.

[drmgncolor]

I like that shows offer lower classes...then people who are scared to go higher, horses who can't go higher, etc have something they can enter.

I agree. I am happy there is a local farm with a schooling series starting at 2 feet. I have an ASB sport horse. :eek: If I took her anywhere remotely close to a hunter arena, I think I would get laughed out of the arena and likely wouldn't even have a chance to place at all because it's subjective. So where is the market for me if you take away the lower classes? My mare will jump the moon, loves doing it, and we have a great time... safely and slowly.

I get really really nervous when performing so I want to start out low, where I am comfortable. Ask my fiddle teacher... I couldn't even pull the bow across the string in front of strangers without it bouncing no matter how hard I practiced. I quit singing in front of people because I couldn't keep my voice from shaking. I. get. that. nervous... always have.

So I am looking forward to our first schooling show class in a couple of weeks with it's 2 foot, no combination course.... I will take my time and go slow. I don't even care if I ribbon. I am there for FUN, to gain experience and to get some miles on my mare.

I am not a perfect rider. I don't always make the right decision coming into a jump. I don't always get the strides, but I am learning and most importantly having fun doing so. And the schooling shows are a great place for me to learn the ropes and gain experience with out paying $$$$ to do so.

It saddens me that people in the lower (even schooling) jumpers are considered yahoos.

Now I just have to keep from vomiting before I enter the ring...

[mroades]

Shame on show management for allowing such a class. Its bad enough that they'd have a 2ft jumper division in the first place.. to make a racing game out out it is lethal and SO irresponsible. What did they do for the joker? Thats just insane. As a professional I would NEVER allow a student to do that class. I have an awesome riding kid that is tiny and has a great scopey small pony that I'd love to let her do a jumper class like I did with my other students this past weekend to prepare for medal finals. Luckily for everyone else though, there is no such thing as 2ft jumpers here. S-C-A-R-Y!!

ETA- I had a student doing the low ch/ad jumpers on a very green horse this summer at whats probably the biggest show Indiana has in a year and when we were schooling, there was a woman and her trainer that shared our barn aisle and ended up doing the same division as my student and just happened to be posted in the (60+ horse) order right around the same time we were. They were so scary in the schooling area, and I kept listening to what the trainer there was telling this woman (who was most assuredly an adult- probably over 40) and I was so honestly scared for her. The horse either stopped, 3-legged, or raced scarily over every schooling area jump. She went in the ring and did exactly what she was told- to race blindly at every single jump. She did OK until she got to the in and out, where she missed so badly to the in oxer that the horse almost flipped over it and then completely crashed and fell over the 2nd jump, which were right at the ingate. They had to take her away on a stretcher. Most of my students who were at the show happened to be up at the ring watching and I felt it was a very important lesson for them to learn to see why I am insistent that they dont run like "bats out of hell" around in the jumpers, regardless of the height.

Lots of big money at small heights ($5,000 classes at big A shows for the 3ft jumpers, really?) and its absolutely nothing but a contest to see who out there has the least regard for their safety. I walked a course once two years ago with a kid and said in reference to a turn we saw people watching that if she tried that turn it was totally unsafe and would probably have a result and that I felt it was much safer and better to go around to get to it. She ended up third. Girl who won it took the crazy option, three legged the jump, almost flipped, but somehow the horse left it up. 2nd place went around like us but was faster than we were. 4th -7th all tried to beat the frst girl with the short turn. Two fell off, one crashed it badly, and one made it over and had a rail at another jump. Not the kind of odds I want when showing, and I dont want to explain to the parents why I told their child to do a turn that caused their kid (or horse) a serious injury.


Here is where a course designer that has a clue that can come in handy. If you reward careful turns at a low height, the psychos will not win.

[Haalter]

It saddens me that people in the lower (even schooling) jumpers are considered yahoos.

I'm pretty sure that everyone who has used the term "yahoos" on this thread are talking about the people who zoom around recklessly and go all out to win over tiny jumps...not people like you, who say you plan to go "safely and slowly" and don't care if you are the fastest or win a ribbon.

[Trixie]

Who cares if someone who regularly courts death wins on a given day?

Don't you think they will victimize themselves sooner or later? Why do they need your attention, judgement or regulation?


I’m personally sick of being scared watching lower level jumpers, frankly, it DOES need regulation. It’s also not doing a thing for the sport, or accomplishing what the divisions set out to accomplish. That’s what makes it deserving of attention.

It saddens me that people in the lower (even schooling) jumpers are considered yahoos.

They’re only considered yahoos when they’re rocketing around the course, not someone who rides slowly and safely.

[Beam Me Up]

I don't object to schooling shows offering low jumper divisions, since I do think they are useful for getting young horses out and about, schooling courses away from home, getting used to the show environment. Kids too, I guess.

I understand it is a little bit "instant gratification" but at the same time I do like being able to get young horses out, it's great for selling them (showing at 2'6 is still a little bump up from schooling 2'6 and claiming ready to show).

I do take a little comfort in the knowledge that those who treat little jumpers and as the be-all-end-all do, in fact, end up there. In my area too, we have farms that exclusively specialize in frighteningly fast trips at schooling shows.

I think for most of us it's easy to write off the little shows with the idea that anyone seriously wanting/needing to win those classes is not a serious jumper. I just did it too.



But I do wonder where it stops. I am mostly an eventer, and most of my experience is at local shows which top out at 4', but I have done a few big shows (HITS etc.) from L2-L5, and even in the high AA the top few clearly had a death wish and were rewarded with ribbons. The L4 and 5 were much more civilized at the shows I did.

Those shows are not cheap and I'm not sure how much fun it would be to return weekend after weekend to be beaten by people charging around like that.

If we want to view CH/AD as a school too, and say it doesn't matter how you place, all about the foundation for moving up, blah blah blah, then I guess it's fine, just like most posters feel like the schooling shows are sort of live and let live. If we want it to be a "destination" division that people can enjoy year after year, I see where it gets disheartening and we want to see better riding rewarded.

I am very interested in where the jumper community views the exclusively schooling levels to end and the respectable competition to begin.

[Trixie]

Respectable competition begins at the lower levels as long as proper riding is involved.

Schooling doesn't mean not respectable. You see poor form and bad horsemanship in every discipline at every level. Doesn't make it better that it's over higher fences or tougher tests.

Quality riding, at any level, is respectable.

[hntrjmprpro45]

We have a trainer in our area that we lovingly refer to as the "kick and spur" lady because during all of her jumper rounds she yells to her riders "KICK AND SPUR!!" or "PULL AND WHIP" (How she has clients, I have no idea!). Her riders typically win their classes if they dont go crashing through the fences (which has happened). I always tell my riders to first worry about going clear then if they can find a good spot to make a tighter turn or go faster they can try it but never compromise a clean round!

I would like to see clear round only classes at the lower levels to encourage good riding!

[indygirl2560]

At the lower levels, I've competed against a lot of loonies(galloping dangerously around like chickens with their heads cut off, getting awful distances and putting in overall psycho rounds). At a show in April, a maniac in the jumper ring caused her horse to trip on fall over on her into the hedges surrounding the arena. Luckily, neither horse nor rider were hurt but, unbelievably, she still rode the same way in her next round. Sure they may win sometimes but it seems like once the jumps get bigger, the idiots can't afford to make the mistakes they get away with in the lower divisions because someone will get hurt. You can still go at a decent speed, put in a fast, but safe round and win. I've done it in the 3' and under jumpers(always placing 1st-3rd in 30+ horse classes) and I've seen several of my barn friends and trainer's daughter do it many times at the 3'6+ levels.

[ThirdCharm]

I'm an eventer, but I used to do jumpers and we still go to schooling shows for jumpers. It is very difficult to win the low-level jumper classes with a safe ride, but I make sure everyone understands that we are not there for ribbons, we are there for experience! As BMU said, there are far too many riders and trainers who are willing to sacrifice sanity, safety, and any chance of progression to a higher level for a winning round at 2' or 2'6", but that is usually the level they stay at. What is truly sad is the disappointment of these kids when they try to move up to 3' and above, and suddenly they have rails, rails, stops, eliminations... and the trainer blames the pony and the poor innocent critter gets sent down the road and replaced by a newer shinier model "worthy of sweetie's talent".

I've rarely had a problem winning or placing well in jumpers from 3' to 4' with a sane ride, and when I do get beat it is usually by someone whose saintly horse is gonna get sick of that *(&#*$& sooner or later (or will go lame from the pounding) and they will be starting over next season with a new mount, while my horses are still putting in consistent clean rounds.

Virtue is its own reward?

Jennifer

[KateWooten]

One of the things I don't understand is why do you time your jumpers in this country ? I couldn't believe it when I came over here, and saw a show bill, with a hundred classes on it and they were all 'working hunter'. None of the gazillion other show classes you could have, none of the interesting fun-jumping classes, no clear round jumping .... nothing. Just working hunter for people under 12 then working hunter for people over 12 but less than 4ft 6, and then working hunter for horses over 12 ... and on and on and on.... for two days ... over the same course ! If you didn't own a fancy hunter, you could stay home every weekend !

I finally found one tiny show that had 3 jumper classes after dark when everyone else had gone home .... and learnt that you had to be a yahoo to enter them, because they were timed ! WTH ? What about just regular ordinary plain old jumping ?

And then everyone complains that the jumping kids go too fast ! Stop timing them !

[RockinHorse]

Here is where a course designer that has a clue that can come in handy. If you reward careful turns at a low height, the psychos will not win.

This :yes:

[CoolMeadows]

I guess a 2' jumper class technically could be won safely. But even if you're slick, smooth, smart and flawless, that belly-to-the-ground yahoo could come in and tear it up. Better not to win! Seriously, when I bring along a legit prospect, we don't even start to try get in the ribbons till 4'. Before then, it's all about being smooth and confident... building up that horse into a powerhouse who thinks they can take on anything. At a certain level, an inside turn here and there and opening up the step is fine. Galloping at two foot? Just dumb.

[flash1]

I have always found that at the lower levels...the yahoo's prevail....but once you start moving up then they very rarely go clear...