Got Western ? Spinoff, Cowboy Dressage [Archive]

AZ Native

Oct. 18, 2009, 10:38 PM

I host clinics for Jack Brainard ( www.jackbrainard.com )
twice a year here and first heard of this from him.
I'm posting an article about Cowboy Dressage written by him and another by Dr. Robert Miller DVM on the subject, and a video of an example.Jack is 88 now and just recovering ( went home today from the hospital ) from a quadruple bypass. 3 weeks ago I was riding with him at his place and he is really getting into this. It was amazing to watch him do some very nice canter pirouettes then right into a half pass and tempi changes on a straight line
( which he has always done, the tempi changes I mean ).I'm sure it was not perfect by the FEI standards and many of the DQ's here , but the horse was relaxed and they were both having a good , no stress time.Did I mention he's 88 ? :eek:

Saddlebred fans, nice horse in the video .:D

http://www.cowboydressage.com/special/article7RM.html

http://www.cowboydressage.com/special/article6JB.html

http://www.cowboydressage.com/video/DWC/video-4/trigger.html

NJRider

Oct. 18, 2009, 10:45 PM

I enjoy reading his articles in Eclectic Horseman magazine.
http://www.eclectic-horseman.com/index.php

AZ Native

Oct. 18, 2009, 10:50 PM

I LOVE that magazine ! It promotes really good horsemanship regardless of the tack you use or the costume you wear .

NJRider

Oct. 18, 2009, 10:57 PM

Yeah, it does not promote the "gimicky" type NH or anything too "new age". I always read all the articles, it is a great magazine. I think it has more of a dressage slant than some of the dressage mags!

Renae

Oct. 19, 2009, 07:05 PM

I have ridden with Jack and it is great. That man has such a feel for a horse and so much can be learned just by watching him!

mbm

Oct. 19, 2009, 08:16 PM

it will be interesting to see how the western dressage classes/tests go. they are saying that it is open to "mature" horses of 5 and over. i wonder if they will be doing FEI "type" work on 5 yo?

also, how can they have connection when they dont want the horse to seek the bit?

and not trying to be a snot, but the vid posted does not show the horse bended in the "half passes" nor cantering in the CPs....

how can they say this is "dressage"?

i am all for using dressage principles on all horses... i just dont see how they are going to take dressage and meld it with western and stay true to either since they are so opposite in many ways...

mbm

Oct. 19, 2009, 08:32 PM

another question: how come the crowds are rarin' to see cowboy dressage, but at the same time real dressage is like watching paint dry and people think it is b-o-o-o-o-ring?

is it because of the minutia of how "real" dressage is supposed to look/feel as opposed to the horse "just doin' it" ?

(honest question!)

AZ Native

Oct. 20, 2009, 10:37 AM

mbm ,You have asked really good questions.I'm new to dressage and am going about it in the more traditional manner and will stay that way. A friend and I were discussing this whole idea.I thought the half passes in the video looked correct , but I could be wrong and would happily admit it with a good explanation that I can then see for myself. My friend and I were saying that it is hard to find really '' correct '' moving horses.I know I need to see more of those. If you could let me know where to look, I'll check it out with an open mind. I'm put off by so much of the competitive dressage as it just doesn't look '' right '' in my mind. The leg movers and the tension , for example.I put the post up for discussion and feedback, so i really appreciate your comments. I haven't made up my mind but find the whole thing interesting !
Thanks so much for your input !
As to why audiences like it , I think it's the whole romantic western deal along with very pretty horses, nice music and some good old fashioned showmanship.

AZ Native

Oct. 20, 2009, 10:40 AM

and not trying to be a snot, but the vid posted does not show the horse bended in the "half passes" nor cantering in the CPs....

.

I'll check it out again. I noticed with another horse in another video a 4 beat canter , is that what you are mean with this horse ?

BTW, you are not being a '' snot ''.

Catsdorule-sigh

Oct. 20, 2009, 12:39 PM

No, I don't think this horse is entirely correct and I don't like the action in the RH. That said, his canter piourettes are better then some of the current big dogs who also can't do them without doing big circles with their back legs.

I would not expect "Cowboy Dressage" to be exactly like competitive dressage. But if you look at the picture of the really, really ODG's, they're riding on the curb, some contact if you will, with a practically straight leg. (And I would like to know how you get bend from riding on the curb, lol) But in the past, I think the vaquero tradition and what they produced, the SLOW way, would really be the comparison.

If you look at a really good western rider, there will be very little difference in the seat from a dressage rider. IMHO, because I fought this problem too, they will be more likely to not balance on the reins.

I don't get where a horse cannot be collected if not on the bit. I would think the goal would be a collected horse on the lightest of contact.

Again, I don't think this horse represents that entirely, headset a little too "set", etc. But he looks happy and moves as well as he can.

Would also like to know if a horse can really bend as much in the body in a western saddle.

Most of the really good riders I've seen have been cowboy types. Good seats, soft hands, and really let the horse learn to move and carry itself on its own. Best beginning, IMHO.

mbm

Oct. 20, 2009, 12:47 PM

as far as i understand the difference between western and dressage is that in dressage the horse carries itself over the back and off the riders seat - the pinnecle of this will be going on dropped snaffle.... being ridden totally off the seat (and bend comes from the leg not the hand).... the dressage horse bends itls backlegs and sits so as to carry the weight and lifty the shoulders to create cadence and power.

western - even the good guys - dont work in this manner. it is way more horizontal - way less cadence and suspension and power thru the whole body. this is obvious by the type of horses they prefer.

yes, the seat is similar and it can be easy for western folks to switch to dressage seat wise.

AZ Native

Oct. 20, 2009, 12:54 PM

You think like I do, Cats !! I audit and love Buck Brannaman who is committed to keeping the Vaquero tradition. He says that '' correct '' dressage and the CA bridle horse tradition are the same,although he does not train some of the dressage movements as they are not necessary for the job the bridle horses are asked to do, that being work cattle. My goal is to have a horse connected back to front with as light a rein connection as possible.I love talking about this !
I know Eitan ( the man in the video ) is NOT after the same thing as the competitive or even strict classical dressage as Jack talks about in his article.
Eitan does not envision shows with classically trained dressage horses are then ridden in western tack.

AZ Native

Oct. 20, 2009, 12:58 PM

Catsdorule-sigh

Oct. 20, 2009, 01:07 PM

Yes, I know that western seems to be more horizontal. But you're not going to get much more bend in those hocks then in a cutting horse. And a good reiner really has to sit in those stops.

A western horse has to carry itself, maybe in a more natural way. I think the main thing is that it's on and off- not all the time. You want it when you need it then it's back to relaxed. (In no way am I thinking Western Pleasure :no: types, ugh) A good working horse is going to be very balanced. Watch a working stock horse class and imagine a horse that cannot balance or work through its whole body. The very definition of a cutting horse is a horse that sits and turns through its hocks, lifts its shoulders while still crouching low in front- I think that horse is working very much through their whole body.

As for working off the seat, if you've got that much slack in the reins, I imagine that the horse IS working off the seat. And the best trainer I had emphasized that you wanted to channel and control the horses shoulders- which neck reining kind of does, be it in collection or not. The reins were the channel to where you wanted the shoulder to go, not so much giving directions to the head, and you worked with your seat and legs to help produce direction, how much lift, etc.

Sorry, I tend to disagree about western not carrying through the back. If you've seen really good ones work, it makes a difference. To watch the horse work on a loose rein, you know they're doing it themselves and not being held up. Conformation of the horse makes a huge difference and I guess I remember when the bulk of the QH were not downhill peanut rollers. :eek:

FWIW, IMHO, I don't think most of the dressage horses today really work through the back or carry and sit behind. They dance up and down with their back legs but don't sit and move underneath.

mbm

Oct. 20, 2009, 01:32 PM

even if you took klimke and the best cowboy and compare rides they wound not be the same. it is just different ...

eta : dressage horses should bend al the joints of their hind end, including hips, stifles, hocks....

it is not the same as a cutting horse. cutting horses brace as they stop or turn... dressage horses should lift and carry not brace. etc etc

eta to say that a cuttin horse drops its front end to spin, a dressage should (should) lift its front end to do a CP.

anyway, this is silly. it is obvious the differences.... and i am not saying one is better or worse - altho of course i am a DQ so i prefer dressage :)

monstrpony

Oct. 20, 2009, 02:08 PM

even if you took klimke and the best cowboy and compare rides they wound not be the same. it is just different ...

Yeah, and compare Klimke and Gal on Totilas, and it would not be the same. And your point is? I stand by what I said in the other thread.

eta : dressage horses should bend al the joints of their hind end, including hips, stifles, hocks....

Any correct, athletically developed horse should bend in all of the joints to a developed degree. The degree depends on the horse's conformational ability and the need of the moment, not on the discipline. Dressage develops this to the ultimate degree for the sake of doing it; other disciplines have other purposes. But if a horse is going to be athletic in its discipline, the discipline will value the same qualities in the horse's movement.

it is not the same as a cutting horse. cutting horses brace as they stop or turn... dressage horses should lift and carry not brace. etc etc

eta to say that a cuttin horse drops its front end to spin, a dressage should (should) lift its front end to do a CP.

Even the cowboy dressage folks would agree that hard stops and flat spins may be flashy, but they are not athletic. Need to sort out your disciplines, but, in any event, you're comparing apples to oranges here. You cannot lump all western riding together and use that mess to bash "cowboy dressage".

anyway, this is silly. it is obvious the differences.... and i am not saying one is better or worse - altho of course i am a DQ so i prefer dressage :)

Well, bless your heart.

amadee

Oct. 20, 2009, 02:22 PM

for some very thorough and knowledgeable posts about true working western horses....you've said it beautifully and as a person who grew up riding working cow horses who are in the bridle its much appreciated.

AZ Native

Oct. 20, 2009, 03:44 PM

kypeep

Oct. 20, 2009, 04:53 PM

If any of my cutting horses start to "brace in the stop and turns," they won't be in my barn much longer. The ideal cutting horse will work a cow in something akin to the position of a praying mantis - squatting on the hocks while still keeping the shoulder loose and free to move quickly. Don't mistake the characteristic "crouch" of a good cutter for a horse that's heavy on its front end. No way could the horse hold a cow if that were the case.

Catsdorule-sigh

Oct. 20, 2009, 05:16 PM

kypeep:

If any of my cutting horses start to "brace in the stop and turns," they won't be in my barn much longer. The ideal cutting horse will work a cow in something akin to the position of a praying mantis - squatting on the hocks while still keeping the shoulder loose and free to move quickly. Don't mistake the characteristic "crouch" of a good cutter for a horse that's heavy on its front end. No way could the horse hold a cow if that were the case.

Well said. If you've seen some good cutting action, they'd lose the cow if they took the time to "brace and stop."

FYI, a cutting horse does not drop its front end to spin. Spinning would take it away from the cow. A reining horse "sits" on its back end to stop. When a reining horse spins, they may plant their back legs a bit more and are more flat. But if they didn't move those back legs at some point, they'd just fall over so no, they don't brace when they spin, either. And they certainly do have to lift those shoulders to do their spins or they would circumscribe a pretty wide circle all strung out.

Want to see some real handy horses? I think the ones that pole bend have to weave between the poles, change leads, and do it at speed.

If the western horse does not bend as much through the body, is it a matter of training or the type of work that they do? Or just a perception because of the saddle?

To this day, I remember a leopard Appaloosa stallion trained the vaquero way, very baroque looking, could trot in place if asked, handy, and used for cattle work. That was a l.o.n.g time ago now.....

mbm

Oct. 20, 2009, 06:25 PM

guys.... i have no quarrels with western... it just isnt dressage.

even if you were to take klimke and the same type odg form western world - it still would not be similar beyond some basics.

or, prove me wrong - i am always happy to learn something new! :)

2Horse

Oct. 20, 2009, 07:29 PM

I think its cool regardless. Maybe it will get more people involved! Esp the ones that like dressage, but doesn't want the DQ attitude that seems to go with it. Plus not everyone likes wearing breeches! LOL:lol:

cutemudhorse

Oct. 20, 2009, 07:34 PM

Dressage means training in French, remember? Well trained western horses that actually work, like cutters and working cow horses, are 'doing dressage.' They are being trained to be supple, responsive, submissive, etc. After all, don't we say how dressage is good for all horses? They are supposed to be through the back and balanced and soft and responsive. Those well trained western horses probably work off the rider's body better than some 'real dressage trained' horses. There are good and bad in all types of riding but we shouldn't judge them by their tack/clothes/job. Perhaps there are moments in one of those videos where we would like more forward. . . or more bend in the half pass? (Which, by the way, did show 'sufficient bend' , by our standards, for a few steps. I believe the video I saw was of a horse who was through the back as well; it was just a shorter back hidden by a bigger saddle!) But don't we see 'real dressage' horses that are not perfect? Necks round, forelegs high, hocks out behind, not sitting, and backs hollow? And winning???? Maybe because riders and trainers are so caught up in the movements that there is no fluidity, which is what makes it look like dancing.
The ideal western horse is different from the ideal dressage horse, no doubt. But the athletic ones can do the same movements; it may be just a matter of what people are expecting to see as far as flashiness or length of stride, for example.
I for one am thankful for what I've learned from the Other Side.

NoDQhere

Oct. 20, 2009, 09:01 PM

While it may be pretty and cool, it isn't Dressage. It isn't bad, it just isn't Dressage. Why does it have to be called Dressage? Personally, I think the "Western" events need to stand on their own merits and be called what they are. They are not Dressage any more than helping my neighbor move his cows is cutting.

Dressage really is different and taking little bits and pieces here and there to make a horse do something "cool" doesn't make it Dressage.

AZ Native

Oct. 20, 2009, 09:11 PM

kypeep

Oct. 21, 2009, 01:21 PM

I admire all types of riding and can see value in most anything. Started out riding dressage, rode through PSG, outstanding education, wouldn't trade it for the world. I now apply it to make my cutting horses better athletes. The most well-trained cutting horse I own came to me with an excellent education - he could collect, extend, move all parts of his body separately, bend as you asked, etc. He had not been trained as a dressage horse in the strictest sense, but he did have an excellent foundation in all aspects. It was a very short matter of time before he understood correct shoulder-in, haunches-in, half-pass, counter-canter, and the working pirouette. Not all cutting horses are educated as well as he was, but his foundation is an example of how some of the best western trainers put excellent basics on their horses.

katarine

Oct. 21, 2009, 02:18 PM

I love and admire good western horses, and I'm new to dressage. But even little old me knows they aren't the same thing. It didn't take much dressage schoolin' to sort that out. Western emphasizes obedience and whoa. If you are sorting cattle, you need that. You need a horse that could, and would, whoa all day. Study dressage even 2 minutes and we're ok with a whoa that lasts a good deep breath (if that), and we're OFF again, with lightness and precision and all that. So while a western horse IS taught all manner of bend and nimble and use your back- to me, IMO, it comes back to that whoa factor. Always be ready to whoa. Dressage? Always be ready to go.

You can't much find good using working horses being shown. Reined cowhorse is pretty regional, and often lately more about flash and speed than correct cow work. So those are not great examples of good working western horses. Reiners lately are galloping around with their noses in the dirt, and the degree to which they knock them to the inside for a lope departure? Girl, that ain't dressage lol you'd get killed for that crooked departure. So those who like a good western horse, can't much find one, so when we find something pretty, connected, relaxed, and good looking, we call it cowboy dressage. Dressage 'should' be tickled that the honorary title is going to good moving, well trained, honest looking, supple-looking, flexible, working western horses. It's a compliment to what 'we' think dressage is. Just take the compliment and go on. I'm pretty sure no one's going to ride in for their test in a Resistol, folks.

AZ Native

Oct. 21, 2009, 04:01 PM

kpony

Oct. 21, 2009, 05:13 PM

I think these guys talk about the fact that most of the western horses are a different type than most dressage horses. I like that they also talk about dressage as training to improve the horse, any horse, and not as pulling-into-a-frame and just doing the movements.

I also love that they appreciate Saddlebreds :)

kypeep

Oct. 21, 2009, 07:20 PM

AZ Native

Oct. 21, 2009, 10:16 PM

AZ Native - Here ya go, that's him doing the cow thing (with a local trainer riding him in one of the open classes):

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg59/kypeep/moose.jpg

If you are familiar with cutting horses you will recognize the name of his sire, High Brow Cat. I would take about anything sired by that horse - he seems to stamp most of his progeny with super athletic ability and great "trainability."

:cool:
You are a really lucky girl ! Gorgeous horse ! I bet he can go forward just fine and do a lot dressage wise, even if he may be typically down hill in his build as most of the cow horses are. I am well aware of the Cat ! I'd take anything too !
I have a Boogernic son ( Reminic x King Fritz mare ), super trainable, athletic and wonderful suspension for a little cow pony. One of the reasons I bought him was because of his movement, not as flat as most QH's.

Speaking of the greats, I went to see Smart Little Lena while I was visiting Jack.That was a treat.

I have asked 2 friends that have ridden Eitan's stallions ( the man in the vid ) about their experience( both good hands ). They said it was an incredible experience to ride a horse with that kind of self carriage , connected on a loose rein. They are both in awe .

kypeep

Oct. 21, 2009, 10:41 PM

AZ Native - love the breeding on your horse! Always wanted one of the Reminic horses, very appealing to the eye, quick, and athletic as heck.

This guy is built uphill for sure, although it's hard to tell that here. In person he is almost baroque-looking. The photo doesn't show it well, but he has quite an Andalusian-type head profile - not a favorite of the cutting crowd, needless to say. Good suspension (came from his momma, I think) and is a forward type of horse. The odd thing is I bought him sight unseen based on his breeding and who had trained him (Mr. Eddie Flynn). When he got off the trailer at the showgrounds, I remember thinking that he had a darned good over-track. When I lunged him that evening, my jaw must have dropped. I was not expecting a mini-WB wannabe at all. I probably could not have found one like that had I been looking for it.

You mentioned Smart Little Lena, one of my favorites of all time. We have a SR Instant Choice X Little Proud Mary (X Smart Little Lena) mare also. She doesn't have the WB-look, but she could pass as a hunter pony easily in the way she moves and jumps. Hands down the quickest and cattiest of all our cutting horses. I especially like her because she is the kind that drops on her belly and shakes when a cow looks at her. But like many of her sire's bloodline, it is taking her mind a little bit of time to catch up with her talent.

Our other cutters are more typically Quarter Horses in the way they look and move. It just always struck me how the most athletic ones could have had careers in other disciplines as well.

twofatponies

Oct. 22, 2009, 12:45 AM

spanishhorse

Oct. 22, 2009, 08:17 AM

I loved the Eitan videos...and I think the reason so many people will come out to see this riding is because it is inviting! The crowd is encouraged to enjoy the show and appreciate the horse and rider. So many times "dressage" shows are more like a funeral than an invitation to watch some nice riding. I agree with the poster that described dressage as training...that is what it is. And did you really look at Eitan's seat, quiet leg...how many times do you see a seat like that? His horses are light, responsive and did some movements way better than what I have seen at dressage shows. Maybe I am partial because I also learned from a Cavalry trained trainer (albeit German vs. Eitan's Hungarian trainer) and there is such a difference in the lightness and responsiveness expected in the Cavalry dressage than in competitive dressage...and I trained with both types of trainers in Germany and will take the Cavalry dressage every time.

Kyzteke

Oct. 22, 2009, 10:45 AM

also, how can they have connection when they dont want the horse to seek the bit?

and not trying to be a snot, but the vid posted does not show the horse bended in the "half passes" nor cantering in the CPs....

how can they say this is "dressage"?

i am all for using dressage principles on all horses... i just dont see how they are going to take dressage and meld it with western and stay true to either since they are so opposite in many ways...

I'm sorry if these comments have already been addressed, but I don't have time right now to read all 2 pages of this thread.

First, you do NOT have to have the horse's lips pulled back to have a "connection" between the bit, the horse & the rider. A horse is an extremely sensitive animal and the bit rests on probably the most sensitive part of a horse, the bars. Simply lifting the reins (especially western reins, which are often abit heavier than english) establishes a connection. Of course, if you are using a spade bit (the traditional "double bridle" of the highly trained cowboy dressage horse) you are working more off of leverage anyway.

Why people who readily accept the concept that a slight change of weight from the rider's seat through a thick leather saddle and a saddle pad can be felt by a horse, but refuse to entertain the idea that a horse can feel a piece of metal vibrate on their gums when only the slightest bit of "feel" is applied has always mystified me. Duh.

Secondly, those who have only come to dressage since the Germans/Dutch have ruled the ring may not "get" that these "rules" of what is right and wrong/ & correct/incorrect have been fairly flexible. There are different "schools" of dressage. Watch the French ride "dressage" then the Portuguese, then the Spanish. All will put emphasis on slightly different aspects of "dressage."

To me, these are like styles of painting -- there is no ONE right or wrong, but different expressions using the same medium -- a horse & a rider.

For that matter, watch some tapes of dressage back from the '50's & '60's -- not so very long ago -- and you will NOT see any death grip on the horse's face, any flopping ankles, any extreme extensions. You WILL see more lightness, more expression on the part of the horse, more (IMHO) sophisticated collected work.

To me, what is currently in the modern dressage ring is actually abhorrent to my eyes -- the riding is heavy-handed, the horse is held in a virtual choke-hold and there is NOTHING light or subtle about the aids -- Helen Keller could see them! Most of the horse show little "expression" (personally I think because they are not allowed to), and the emphasis is on precision & timing. There is nothing left of a dance.

Before you poo-poo this, I invite you to actually watch other dressage practioners and riders from other schools.

The "cowboy" school of dressage will, I'm betting, put more emphasis on expression & lightness -- probably because it sprang from the vacquaro tradition -- which was born from ranch work, where you needed one hand free. So lightness was essential and the finished bridle horse needed no more than the weight of the reins to give him direction.

Believe me, alot of modern competitive dressage riders could learn a great deal from this "style."

NoDQhere

Oct. 22, 2009, 12:09 PM

The difference is "avoidance" of the bit, Western, and "acceptance" of the bit, Dressage.

When a horse avoids the high port, long shanked western bit, he carries himself in a "posture". His back is tight (stiff) and he is not straight.

When a horse accepts the bit, he is supple over his top line, from poll to tail and his back is "soft". The contact of the reins is elastic. It isn't pulling or heavy but it is "there". The horse tracks straight.

The double bridle of Dressage is very short shanked, the ports, if any are low and smooth. There is no comparison with what is allowed in western events. The majority of Dressage horses are never ridden in anything other than a smooth snaffle their entire lives. Remember that until a horse is 3rd level, a snaffle is all that is allowed. Nothing other than smooth is ever allowed. There are also the age limits not to mention the progression of the levels.

Dressage done correctly looks very easy. And when a person sees Dressage done badly it is very easy to say, "I can do better than that". Both examples that lead to many folks, "givin' a whirl". But the truth is that understanding Dressage takes time and unless you have the opportunity to ride a "correct" Dressage horse it is going to be very hard to understand the concepts of over the back and straight.

I also don't have a beef with western. Eitan does really cool, pretty things with horses and he is obviously a "good hand". But he isn't doing Dressage and I do have a beef with it being called Dressage. Like I said before, let the western events stand on their own merit.

AZ Native

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:17 PM

You can't much find good using working horses being shown. Reined cowhorse is pretty regional, and often lately more about flash and speed than correct cow work.

I found this example of Ray Hunt's former son in law , the incredible Martin Black. IMHO, this horse is connectd over the back and to the hand on a loose rein and shows self carriage while doing amazing cow work.The early part of the video is the most relevant to this discussion.The video gave me a chill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFmRus56miQ&feature=related

AZ Native

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:27 PM

I'm sorry if these comments have already been addressed, but I don't have time right now to read all 2 pages of this thread.

First, you do NOT have to have the horse's lips pulled back to have a "connection" between the bit, the horse & the rider. A horse is an extremely sensitive animal and the bit rests on probably the most sensitive part of a horse, the bars. Simply lifting the reins (especially western reins, which are often abit heavier than english) establishes a connection. Of course, if you are using a spade bit (the traditional "double bridle" of the highly trained cowboy dressage horse) you are working more off of leverage anyway.

Why people who readily accept the concept that a slight change of weight from the rider's seat through a thick leather saddle and a saddle pad can be felt by a horse, but refuse to entertain the idea that a horse can feel a piece of metal vibrate on their gums when only the slightest bit of "feel" is applied has always mystified me. Duh.

Secondly, those who have only come to dressage since the Germans/Dutch have ruled the ring may not "get" that these "rules" of what is right and wrong/ & correct/incorrect have been fairly flexible. There are different "schools" of dressage. Watch the French ride "dressage" then the Portuguese, then the Spanish. All will put emphasis on slightly different aspects of "dressage."

To me, these are like styles of painting -- there is no ONE right or wrong, but different expressions using the same medium -- a horse & a rider.

For that matter, watch some tapes of dressage back from the '50's & '60's -- not so very long ago -- and you will NOT see any death grip on the horse's face, any flopping ankles, any extreme extensions. You WILL see more lightness, more expression on the part of the horse, more (IMHO) sophisticated collected work.

To me, what is currently in the modern dressage ring is actually abhorrent to my eyes -- the riding is heavy-handed, the horse is held in a virtual choke-hold and there is NOTHING light or subtle about the aids -- Helen Keller could see them! Most of the horse show little "expression" (personally I think because they are not allowed to), and the emphasis is on precision & timing. There is nothing left of a dance.

Before you poo-poo this, I invite you to actually watch other dressage practioners and riders from other schools.

The "cowboy" school of dressage will, I'm betting, put more emphasis on expression & lightness -- probably because it sprang from the vacquaro tradition -- which was born from ranch work, where you needed one hand free. So lightness was essential and the finished bridle horse needed no more than the weight of the reins to give him direction.

Believe me, alot of modern competitive dressage riders could learn a great deal from this "style."

I think this is a brilliant post with the exception of the remark about the spade. I posted a video in the above post of Martin Black. In the second half, which I said was not so relevant to this discussion , now is . I urge you to watch it and listen to his comments about the bit. It is NOT when used properly a leverage bit.
I loved your painting metaphor particularly !

Kyzteke

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:34 PM

The difference is "avoidance" of the bit, Western, and "acceptance" of the bit, Dressage.

When a horse avoids the high port, long shanked western bit, he carries himself in a "posture". His back is tight (stiff) and he is not straight.

There is no comparison with what is allowed in western events. The majority of Dressage horses are never ridden in anything other than a smooth snaffle their entire lives. Remember that until a horse is 3rd level, a snaffle is all that is allowed. Nothing other than smooth is ever allowed. There are also the age limits not to mention the progression of the levels.

Absolutely untrue. The good western "bridle horse" accepts the bit and there is a connection. He is round, soft and works off of his hind end. For that matter most of them are started in snaffles these days as well (although they use to be started in bosals).

What you are calling "dressage" is what you are seeing in the modern competitive ring. What I am trying to say is this is NOT the only "School", "Method" etc. of dressage. Since the word "dressage" only means "training," there is no way ONE person or group of people can define it. It's like defining "dance." And, just like there are fashions & fad in dance, it is the same in dressage.

To YOU what you are watching Anky, et al do is "dressage." Guess what? To many of us it's not.

You need to watch some good western riders (I'm not talking about reiners, but people like Brannaman)...or even some dressage riders from 30-40 years ago. You will see soft, engaged, light horses moving forward freely and working off their hindend. You will see riders in harmony with their horses, giving almost imperceptible aids. Trust me, you will see a difference. You may like one style better than another, but there ARE differences.

monstrpony

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:36 PM

The difference is "avoidance" of the bit, Western, and "acceptance" of the bit, Dressage.

When a horse avoids the high port, long shanked western bit, he carries himself in a "posture". His back is tight (stiff) and he is not straight.

Balderdash.

Again, you cannot lump all western riding together and use it in this argument. Those who are speaking in support of so-called "cowboy dressage" are talking about a very specific and somewhat rare type of western riding. While what you say is too often true, it is not what is being discussed here. Avoidance of the bit is not a characteristic of the western riding in question, nor is a posture, stiffness or lack of straightness.

Kyzteke

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:37 PM

I think this is a brilliant post with the exception of the remark about the spade. I posted a video in the above post of Martin Black. In the second half, which I said was not so relevant to this discussion , now is . I urge you to watch it and listen to his comments about the bit. It is NOT when used properly a leverage bit.
I loved your painting metaphor particularly !

I wish I could watch it, but my old computer hates YouTube.

I am certainly no expert in the spade bit, so I'd love to be educated.

What does Black say?

katarine

Oct. 22, 2009, 01:44 PM

ah, thank you! Martin Black is a TRUE horseman. Everyone should watch that video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGY1p_Gy6u0&feature=channel

Another I'm a huge fan of, is Jon Ensign. He doesn't have good bridle horse videos up, but he too, is a true horseman.

mbm

Oct. 22, 2009, 02:47 PM

I'm sorry if these comments have already been addressed, but I don't have time right now to read all 2 pages of this thread.

First, you do NOT have to have the horse's lips pulled back to have a "connection" between the bit, the horse & the rider. A horse is an extremely sensitive animal and the bit rests on probably the most sensitive part of a horse, the bars. Simply lifting the reins (especially western reins, which are often abit heavier than english) establishes a connection. Of course, if you are using a spade bit (the traditional "double bridle" of the highly trained cowboy dressage horse) you are working more off of leverage anyway.

Why people who readily accept the concept that a slight change of weight from the rider's seat through a thick leather saddle and a saddle pad can be felt by a horse, but refuse to entertain the idea that a horse can feel a piece of metal vibrate on their gums when only the slightest bit of "feel" is applied has always mystified me. Duh.

Secondly, those who have only come to dressage since the Germans/Dutch have ruled the ring may not "get" that these "rules" of what is right and wrong/ & correct/incorrect have been fairly flexible. There are different "schools" of dressage. Watch the French ride "dressage" then the Portuguese, then the Spanish. All will put emphasis on slightly different aspects of "dressage."

To me, these are like styles of painting -- there is no ONE right or wrong, but different expressions using the same medium -- a horse & a rider.

For that matter, watch some tapes of dressage back from the '50's & '60's -- not so very long ago -- and you will NOT see any death grip on the horse's face, any flopping ankles, any extreme extensions. You WILL see more lightness, more expression on the part of the horse, more (IMHO) sophisticated collected work.

To me, what is currently in the modern dressage ring is actually abhorrent to my eyes -- the riding is heavy-handed, the horse is held in a virtual choke-hold and there is NOTHING light or subtle about the aids -- Helen Keller could see them! Most of the horse show little "expression" (personally I think because they are not allowed to), and the emphasis is on precision & timing. There is nothing left of a dance.

Before you poo-poo this, I invite you to actually watch other dressage practioners and riders from other schools.

The "cowboy" school of dressage will, I'm betting, put more emphasis on expression & lightness -- probably because it sprang from the vacquaro tradition -- which was born from ranch work, where you needed one hand free. So lightness was essential and the finished bridle horse needed no more than the weight of the reins to give him direction.

Believe me, alot of modern competitive dressage riders could learn a great deal from this "style."

huh? first, nowhere have i EVER advocated a "death grip". if you knew me you would know i am of the "weight of the reins" camp and always work to get my horses in more and more self carriage etc.

second: you didn't answer my question. as far as i understand it western is the opposite of dressage. the horses bred for each sport prove this. i have never seen a westen horse go in true dressage self carriage over the back, thru and carrying behind, out to the bit etc. etc

however, i am happy to be proven wrong. show me. please!

AZ Native

Oct. 22, 2009, 02:55 PM

I wish I could watch it, but my old computer hates YouTube.

I am certainly no expert in the spade bit, so I'd love to be educated.

What does Black say?

Bummer ! Martin said , to pharaphrse : It's the weight of the chains
( attached to the leather part of the reins) that sends a vibration to the top of the spade. Any heaviness and the rider needs to go back to the 2 rein or back to the Bosal. Please find a way to listen for youself when you can.
BTW, you continue to be awesome on this thread ! :D

Kyzteke

Oct. 22, 2009, 04:19 PM

huh? first, nowhere have i EVER advocated a "death grip". if you knew me you would know i am of the "weight of the reins" camp and always work to get my horses in more and more self carriage etc.

second: you didn't answer my question. as far as i understand it western is the opposite of dressage. the horses bred for each sport prove this. i have never seen a westen horse go in true dressage self carriage over the back, thru and carrying behind, out to the bit etc. etc

however, i am happy to be proven wrong. show me. please!

What do you mean by a "western" horse? A QH? A WP horse? A reiner? Western is just riding with a western saddle. Believe me, true horsemen like Ray Hunt, the Dorrance boys, Buck Brannaman, etc. ride just the way any ODG rides and their horses move the same way EXCEPT it doesn't take RK (like that asshat in the blue tongue video) to get them to "accept" the bit and obtain self-carriage. And incidentally, I personally don't feel that guy's horse WAS in self-carriage. If he'd dropped the reins "western" style that horse would have fallen apart in 2 strides.

The trouble is most people have never seen a true "western" horseman, because they don't show.

Since I can't watch YouTube it's tough to find something that illustrates my point, but believe me, western is not the "opposite" of dressage.

NoDQhere

Oct. 22, 2009, 07:33 PM

Absolutely untrue. The good western "bridle horse" accepts the bit and there is a connection. He is round, soft and works off of his hind end. For that matter most of them are started in snaffles these days as well (although they use to be started in bosals).

Sorry, but there can't be a connection on a loose rein. The horse has learned to keep his head/neck in a certain posture to avoid getting his mouth "corrected". Please realize that some of us have been exposed to many of the western disciplines and have been there, done that. We also still attend shows, horse fairs and clinics so do see what is "out there".

What you are calling "dressage" is what you are seeing in the modern competitive ring. What I am trying to say is this is NOT the only "School", "Method" etc. of dressage. Since the word "dressage" only means "training," there is no way ONE person or group of people can define it. It's like defining "dance." And, just like there are fashions & fad in dance, it is the same in dressage.

You are correct, I am talking about competitive Dressage. It is well defined within principles of training that were developed and sucessful long before there were Cowboys. The development of the horse using the Training Scale. There are different "schools" of Dressage but they are all based on the same principles. Of course it is very easy to say that you are doing "whatever" if all you do is talk the talk and never walk the walk. Do I agree with everything I see in the Dressage arena? No. But the horses at the top of the sport are incredible athletes and the majority of them are sound and healthy into old age.

Yes, the word Dressage translates to mean training. However when the word Dressage began to be used, the only style of riding was the "English" style. There were no western saddles in those days :)

To YOU what you are watching Anky, et al do is "dressage." Guess what? To many of us it's not.

You need to watch some good western riders (I'm not talking about reiners, but people like Brannaman)...or even some dressage riders from 30-40 years ago. You will see soft, engaged, light horses moving forward freely and working off their hindend. You will see riders in harmony with their horses, giving almost imperceptible aids. Trust me, you will see a difference. You may like one style better than another, but there ARE differences.

Guess what? YOU are not the one deciding what Dressage is. I have watched and worked with some very fine Western riders over the years. My mother was a student of Monte Forman. HE was really the first cowboy who understood leads. We have a bit of old film footage of his son, back in the 60s doing flying changes (I think) every 4 or 5 strides. Pretty impressive, but not Dressage. I was blessed to have much success in Western disciplines as was Mr. NoDQhere before we made the switch to "English". But, trust me, once you do both, and really I do mean more that Training/First Level, the differences are HUGE. But, this doesn't mean that I am saying Dressage is better or Western is bad, JUST THAT THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

AZ Native

Oct. 22, 2009, 09:56 PM

I wish I could watch it, but my old computer hates YouTube.

I am certainly no expert in the spade bit, so I'd love to be educated.

What does Black say?

The spade is a '' signal '' bit . More info here :

http://www.elvaquero.com/The%20Spade.htm

AZ Native

Oct. 22, 2009, 10:21 PM

Sorry, but there can't be a connection on a loose rein. The horse has learned to keep his head/neck in a certain posture to avoid getting his mouth "corrected". Please realize that some of us have been exposed to many of the western disciplines and have been there, done that. We also still attend shows, horse fairs and clinics so do see what is "out there".

You are correct, I am talking about competitive Dressage. It is well defined within principles of training that were developed and sucessful long before there were Cowboys. The development of the horse using the Training Scale. There are different "schools" of Dressage but they are all based on the same principles. Of course it is very easy to say that you are doing "whatever" if all you do is talk the talk and never walk the walk. Do I agree with everything I see in the Dressage arena? No. But the horses at the top of the sport are incredible athletes and the majority of them are sound and healthy into old age.

Yes, the word Dressage translates to mean training. However when the word Dressage began to be used, the only style of riding was the "English" style. There were no western saddles in those days :)

My mother was a student of Monte Forman. HE was really the first cowboy who understood leads. We have a bit of old film footage of his son, back in the 60s doing flying changes (I think) every 4 or 5 strides. Pretty impressive, but not Dressage\.

Yes and Jack Brainard was a student of Monty's . I have seen these old videos. It was a start but crude as is obvious in the vids. The top western folks, including Jack
( I saw video of him riding with Monty ) have evolved light years from that. Eitan's video demonstrates that as does the Martin Black vid, to name only
2.No comparison. Look at Buck's videos on youtube. Classical riding is correct riding with a horse in balance and self carriage following the training scale regardless of tack. We'll have to agree to disagree on the loose rein thing too. Anja Beran rides often on a loose rein and obviously is doing dressage in the ''english '' manner. I for one want ounces, not pounds, a horse connected but light in my hand , not leaning on me and having me hold him up, if and when i reach the upper levels. :cool:

You may have learned to ride '' western '' with the horse having to hold his '' head /neck in a certain posture

to avoid being corrected ''.

This is NOT how the current top hands ( not necessarily seen in the show ring BTW ) train or ride and I personally know that they would freak out at the suggestion.

NoDQhere

Oct. 23, 2009, 10:32 AM

Yes and Jack Brainard was a student of Monty's . I have seen these old videos. It was a start but crude as is obvious in the vids. The top western folks, including Jack
( I saw video of him riding with Monty ) have evolved light years from that. Eitan's video demonstrates that as does the Martin Black vid, to name only
2.No comparison. Look at Buck's videos on youtube. Classical riding is correct riding with a horse in balance and self carriage following the training scale regardless of tack. We'll have to agree to disagree on the loose rein thing too. Anja Beran rides often on a loose rein and obviously is doing dressage in the ''english '' manner. I for one want ounces, not pounds, a horse connected but light in my hand , not leaning on me and having me hold him up, if and when i reach the upper levels. :cool:

You may have learned to ride '' western '' with the horse having to hold his '' head /neck in a certain posture

to avoid being corrected ''.

This is NOT how the current top hands ( not necessarily seen in the show ring BTW ) train or ride and I personally know that they would freak out at the suggestion.

If and when you reach the upper levels, the difference will become apparent and you will understand.

All one has to do is turn on RFD TV, go to a "Stock Horse" Show or attend one of the many clinics available to see the methods used to get the "results" one sees. It isn't much different, just more refined, if you will, that it has always been. There is no training scale followed when a 3 year old is considered a "finished" horse.

So yes we will just have to agree to disagree. My family is from the same area as Jack Brainard. He and my mother are from the same generation and knew each other "in the old days". They are both people who accomplished much in their lifetimes with horses but neither exactly "invented the wheel".

AZ Native

Oct. 23, 2009, 10:55 AM

If and when you reach the upper levels, the difference will become apparent and you will understand.

All one has to do is turn on RFD TV, go to a "Stock Horse" Show or attend one of the many clinics available to see the methods used to get the "results" one sees. It isn't much different, just more refined, if you will, that it has always been. There is no training scale followed when a 3 year old is considered a "finished" horse.

So yes we will just have to agree to disagree. My family is from the same area as Jack Brainard. He and my mother are from the same generation and knew each other "in the old days". They are both people who accomplished much in their lifetimes with horses but neither exactly "invented the wheel".

I agree with some that you wrote. I have seldom seen any good horsemanship on RFD and the competitive western is mostly crap. Much of the competitive dressage is also crap, as well as down right cruel as is seen once again on the blue tongue thread.
What I guess I'm after and admire is classical horsemanship whether done in an english dresssage saddle in a back yard or at a show, or a western type doing ''cowboy dressage '' or the Vaquero tradition.The video of Martin working the cow is a pinnacle of horsemanhip as the horse is doing a job.
I never said nor implied that Jack ''' invented the wheel ''.
I think if I got on one of Eitan's horses or Martin's that I could experience much of the same thing as you are describing in an upper level horse. BTW, I have ridden one, and while a top show horse who could do all of the movements and a sweetheart, he was heavy in my hands and not what I want in the end.
My friend that rode Eitan's Holliday Campadre said that the horse's self carriage and uphill power was incredible and they were connected through the hand with the lightest of contact. This is what I'm after.
I will talk to my former instructor who was a top rider and dressage trainer in the Tucson area and a siver medalist about this. He was also a great hand in the Ray Hunt tradition. These are the horseman that I have the most respect for.
This has been a super fun and very educational thread anyway !:D

not again

Oct. 23, 2009, 11:00 AM

NoDQhere

Oct. 23, 2009, 11:26 AM

Here is a clip of our most recent young horse being started:
http://www.youtube.com/user/watermarkfarm#p/a
She is going to be a very nice dressage/event horse but most importantly she is learning in a calm and confidence-building situation.

What a lovely mare! Obviously she is confident and calm about her training and the cowboy is doing a nice job. We start all our youngsters basicly like that, except Mr. NoDQhere no longer uses a western saddle. He also does lunging and long reining, not the rope halter and long rope. And he wears a safety helmet. He hobble breaks all our youngsters and does a lot of desensatization with scarey stuff. We even have one of those great big balls. All of that stuff is very good for any horse. I don't have any issues with the type of "cowboy" stuff your guy is doing ;)

RougeEmpire

Oct. 23, 2009, 11:47 AM

NoDQhere, Im sorry but you clearly know NOTHING and mean NOTHING about how western horses are trained, I mean TRUE western horses not the junk we most often see in the show ring. It takes YEARS to make a bridle horse they DO NOT evade the bit in any way. IF you knew ANYTHING about how a spade bit WORKS you would know that. I train dressage horses and bridle horses and guess what? They are the SAME horses. If you actually STUDIED the history of dressage you would see the Spanish Tradition, the evolution of dressage and Vaquero Horsemanship are all the same thing. Dressage has NOTHING to with what saddle you use of what your bridle looks like, the training of Bridle Horses and true dressage horses is nearly identical because they ARE of the same family and the exact same history.

In case you still don't understand the spade bit is a BALANCED bit, it is supposed to be CUSTOM MADE to fit the horse after ALL his training is finished, they horse then works in the two rein bridle (the BOSAL and the spade bit) for quite a bit longer the horse is ridden off the bosal while he learns to fully under stand the spade bit. The Bridle Horse DEFINES the term "self carriage"!!! The bit rotated to TAP the horse on the roof of the mouth only when the horse becomes truly unbalnced as a way to REMIND him to adjust himself.

The fact that you dont know that the HISTORY of what we know call dressage started in Europe and used the CURB BIT blows my mind. IF you actually STUDY its history you will NOT find double bridle bridles, you will find CURB BITS and horses preforming the most advanced of movements. You really really really need to study the ACTUAL history, in fact start with this book CONQUERORS: The Roots of New World Horsemanship -- by Deb Bennett, Ph.D.

*note* New World Horsemanship STARTS in the Old World.

mbm

Oct. 23, 2009, 12:42 PM

Here is a clip of our most recent young horse being started:
http://www.youtube.com/user/watermarkfarm#p/a
She is going to be a very nice dressage/event horse but most importantly she is learning in a calm and confidence-building situation.

can i ask what the point is of all that? none of that makes any sense to me. nor do i understand how any of that is good for a dressage horse.

eta: i dont mean to sound snooty - i just dont get it at all.

ASB Stars

Oct. 23, 2009, 02:52 PM

The "cowboy", Roddy Strang, who is working with that young horse, in that video is someone who starts a large number of very hugh quality dressage prospects. He also works with "joe averages" horse, and gives them the same terrific start.

By the time Roddy is done with a horse, they have confidence, and are far enough along in their training that a good riding amateur can take them out, and work with them. He is very knowledgable about dressage-- his wife is a lovely dressage rider-- and he knows exactly what needs to be done with a horse to help the process along.

BBowen

Oct. 23, 2009, 06:20 PM

Love Jack Brainard!!!! Hope he makes a speedy recovery.

Kyzteke

Oct. 24, 2009, 06:38 PM

Sorry, but there can't be a connection on a loose rein.

You are correct, I am talking about competitive Dressage. It is well defined within principles of training that were developed and sucessful long before there were Cowboys.

Yes, the word Dressage translates to mean training. However when the word Dressage began to be used, the only style of riding was the "English" style. There were no western saddles in those days :)

Guess what? YOU are not the one deciding what Dressage is.

Again, of COURSE there is a connection on a loose rein. As I mentioned, a horse's sense of feel is very delicate. That just shows absolutely no knowledge of a horse's anatomy or highly sensitive nature. If there was no connection the guys would not be riding with a bridle. I mean, if there is NO connection, what is the purpose of the bridle?

And you need to read some European history, kiddo. How do you think they were handling cattle in Spain & Portuguel 300-400+ years ago? Duh...ON HORSES. The same horses that were coveted by all the royal courts of Europe for their athletic ability...the same horses that were eventually exported to places like Vienna to form the basis of breeds like the Lippizaner (sp?).

Haven't you ever wondered why it was called the Spanish Riding School when it was in Vienna?

Those same Spanish vacqueros/grandees were the ones who helped found California, which is what the "Californio" school of horsemanship is based on. And it had nothing to do with Monty Foreman or modern western showing (and if you really think Monty was the first western rider to discover leads you are extremely misinformed).

The "grandee" tradition of the bridle horse goes back just as far as "modern" dressage except (and this is really my point), THEY have stuck to the principals of dressage far more than most of the "modern" dressage riding you see in the ring today.

You will not see these guys in a show ring because (gasp!) they don't show. They don't need some judge to tell them what is good horsemanship and what is not. And maybe this is why "western" riding gets such a bad rap....these guys like Buck Brannaman, Ray Hunt, Martin Black, etc. are just out there dedicating their lives towards learning about horsemanship and the Californio ideal.

As for WHO is defining dressage -- we could argue about that all day long. Again, it's like saying who gets to define "art." You are right that there are certain principles that are SUPPOSE to be adhered to on the part of the horse: straightness, balance, collection, submission, lightness, expression, precision. The rider is also SUPPOSE to adhere to certain principals of horsemanship: lightness, balance, nearly invisible aids, kindness & compassion towards his animal.

So perhaps the modern "Californio" cowboy's bridle horse may not offer quite as much precision, maybe not as much straightness.

So let us take a look at Mr. Blue Tongue's video, or any ride I've seen by Anky & her ilk. Are you saying THEY are defining dressage? Their horses are certainly missing lightness, expression & submission (otherwise you would not need to hang on their face so badly their tongues turn blue). And the riders are most definitely missing lightness, invisable aids and without a doubt they are totally void of kindness & compassion towards their horses.

So which group is missing more of the equation? You tell me.

Take a look at these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu5Jjo8hNGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLpyfzihts

Note how quiet & balanced the rider is. Note how easily his horse moves WITHOUT heavy contact. Note how the horse stays totally balanced, light and works completely off his hindquarters. Note the aides, which are close to invisible.

Although there is no attempt being made here to perform "modern competitive dressage", according to all the precepts of classical dressage, which you say is what "defines" dressage, this guy is doing a far better job than Mr. Blue Tongue or Anky.

And on a completely other note, if I was a horse, I sure know which rider I'd rather have on my back....

mbm

Oct. 24, 2009, 10:21 PM

sorry, western is not dressage. and no i am not talking about what wins. i am talking about what the rules lay out and what is traditional dressage .

i have yet to see a western person ride a horse over the back, through, engaged, in self carriage and collected as a *properly* trained and ridden dressage horse goes.

i don't understand how you can say it is the same?

sure there are good horsemen that ride western, but it isnt the same as dressage... or maybe i will say - i have never seen a western horse go in a manner that i would say - oh look a dressage horse!

as for the spanish riding school - the name is from the breed of horse, yes? the horses came from spanish bloodlines?

mbm

Oct. 24, 2009, 10:24 PM

NoDQhere

Oct. 25, 2009, 12:10 PM

I mean, if there is NO connection, what is the purpose of the bridle?

Well, you see...........It is CONTROL. And there is a HUGE difference between control and a "connection". Really. You can call those bits anything you want to, but the fact is that it only takes a small amount of rein tension to put the port into the roof of the horses mouth. And the horse knows that, so you bet your A$$ he stays "light".

You will not see these guys in a show ring because (gasp!) they don't show. They don't need some judge to tell them what is good horsemanship and what is not. And maybe this is why "western" riding gets such a bad rap....these guys like Buck Brannaman, Ray Hunt, Martin Black, etc. are just out there dedicating their lives towards learning about horsemanship and the Californio ideal.

Of course they are not in the show ring. They would not be competitive, at all. I'm sorry, but what we are seeing in those videos is very, very basic 4H level horsemanship. WTC. The horses are on the forehand, not over the back in any way, shape or form, and crooked. They are also a very different type of horse both mentally and physically but I am not going to go into that.

As for WHO is defining dressage -- we could argue about that all day long. Again, it's like saying who gets to define "art." You are right that there are certain principles that are SUPPOSE to be adhered to on the part of the horse: straightness, balance, collection, submission, lightness, expression, precision. The rider is also SUPPOSE to adhere to certain principals of horsemanship: lightness, balance, nearly invisible aids, kindness & compassion towards his animal.

And the majority of competitive Dressage is. Unfortunatley the bad happens as well. But us "Dressage" folk know when we are seeing "bad" and I do believe that something is going to be done to clean up our sport. But it isn't going to happen overnight. With high powered lawyers and big money involved, proper "process" has to be be followed.

So perhaps the modern "Californio" cowboy's bridle horse may not offer quite as much precision, maybe not as much straightness.

So let us take a look at Mr. Blue Tongue's video, or any ride I've seen by Anky & her ilk. Are you saying THEY are defining dressage? Their horses are certainly missing lightness, expression & submission (otherwise you would not need to hang on their face so badly their tongues turn blue). And the riders are most definitely missing lightness, invisable aids and without a doubt they are totally void of kindness & compassion towards their horses.

So which group is missing more of the equation? You tell me.

This blue tongue video has everyone going nuts, and IMO, rightly so. BUT, the video is very poor quality and at least on my monitor, I'm not so sure the tongue is discolored. It also looks to me like the horse has gotten his tongue either over or between the bits, AND the rider does fix it fairly quickly. You do realize that a horse can't get it's tongue over the spade because of the height of it. But a dressage curb has a low port so it is possible for a horse to get the tongue over. It can happen and it doesn't always mean "abuse". What I dislike most about the video is the horse being ridden so hyperflexed. But I can go to any western show on any weekend and see EXACTLY the same thing with every single horse in the warm up. Of course some of them just have their noses in the dirt rather than on the chest, but the jerk jerk jerk until the head goes down is pretty obvious. As is the flexing to the riders knee, and so on.

Take a look at these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu5Jjo8hNGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLpyfzihts

Note how quiet & balanced the rider is. Note how easily his horse moves WITHOUT heavy contact. Note how the horse stays totally balanced, light and works completely off his hindquarters. Note the aides, which are close to invisible.

Although there is no attempt being made here to perform "modern competitive dressage", according to all the precepts of classical dressage, which you say is what "defines" dressage, this guy is doing a far better job than Mr. Blue Tongue or Anky.

And on a completely other note, if I was a horse, I sure know which rider I'd rather have on my back....

Again, these videos are nothing more than WTC. Nothing is being asked of the horse, really. Easy for the horse to do what is being asked of it. Upper level Dressage is HARD work, it just looks easy. So yes, you have sweat and bulging muscles. None of the horses in those videos could do even a third level test so there really is nothing to compare.

Kyzteke

Oct. 25, 2009, 12:41 PM

And the majority of competitive Dressage is. Unfortunatley the bad happens as well. But us "Dressage" folk know when we are seeing "bad" and I do believe that something is going to be done to clean up our sport. But it isn't going to happen overnight. With high powered lawyers and big money involved, proper "process" has to be be followed.

This blue tongue video has everyone going nuts, and IMO, rightly so. BUT, the video is very poor quality and at least on my monitor, I'm not so sure the tongue is discolored. It also looks to me like the horse has gotten his tongue either over or between the bits, AND the rider does fix it fairly quickly. You do realize that a horse can't get it's tongue over the spade because of the height of it. But a dressage curb has a low port so it is possible for a horse to get the tongue over. It can happen and it doesn't always mean "abuse". What I dislike most about the video is the horse being ridden so hyperflexed. But I can go to any western show on any weekend and see EXACTLY the same thing with every single horse in the warm up. Of course some of them just have their noses in the dirt rather than on the chest, but the jerk jerk jerk until the head goes down is pretty obvious. As is the flexing to the riders knee, and so on.

No, you "dressage folk" do NOT know when you are seeing "Bad" riding or Anky VG would not be praised to the skies every time she enters a ring. You actually think it's GOOD riding.

Yet her horses are ridden "hyperflexed" to the point where is totally leaves the realm of good horsemanship, not to mention the basic "rules" of classical dressage. Again, I am not talking about western pleasure shows (I think they are as much as travesty as you do)...but it is obvious you have drunk the dressage Kool-Aid....and if you can't see the grace, balance and "connection" (not to mention one really fine walk piroutte) in the BB video that explains to me why modern competitive dressage is in the toilet.

NoDQhere

Oct. 25, 2009, 03:16 PM

No, you "dressage folk" do NOT know when you are seeing "Bad" riding or Anky VG would not be praised to the skies every time she enters a ring. You actually think it's GOOD riding.

Yet her horses are ridden "hyperflexed" to the point where is totally leaves the realm of good horsemanship, not to mention the basic "rules" of classical dressage. Again, I am not talking about western pleasure shows (I think they are as much as travesty as you do)...but it is obvious you have drunk the dressage Kool-Aid....and if you can't see the grace, balance and "connection" (not to mention one really fine walk piroutte) in the BB video that explains to me why modern competitive dressage is in the toilet.

If us dressage folk don't know bad riding when we see it then why are so many dressage folks so up in arms over the blue tongue video? Anky didn't invent hyperflexion. It has been around for years in the "western" world. The big difference is that at any western show or clinic all the horses are ridden that way and it is accepted as "normal". Just watch Clinton Anderson yanking those horses heads around. You don't think that is hyperflexion? And no, I am not defending Anky or hyperflexion. IMO, hyperflexion is "not good" and it will never be practiced on this farm. On that, you and I agree.

But, to me, you seem smitten with "all things Cowboy" and you don't have the experience to "see" what is right in front of you. It isn't all butterfly sweet and soft until horsie just magically "happens". I once reschooled a horse and rider that had been through a clinic with one of those "brand name" Cowboys. The rider was badly injured and the horse was a basket case from being chased around a round a round pen by the mounted cowboy who whipped him in the face many times with a coiled lariat until the horse fell down. It took me weeks to regain the horses confidence and he was an upper level dressage horse when he went to the clinic. He was forever terrified of other horses coming up on him or towards him.

There are a lot of "good hands" out there who do a great job starting young horses. But until you get past the basic walk, trot, canter, stop and turn around, you really aren't doing much or asking much of the horse. In other words it is pretty "easy".

We will just have to agree to disagree. Unfortunately for the horses, there is abuse in all disciplines and until the "powers that be" figure out a way to stop it, it will continue. I think it has been more than 20 years now since the AQHA tried to change WP and nothing has happened. Hopefully the FEI will have better luck.

twohotponies

Oct. 25, 2009, 05:00 PM

This has been a very interesting thread. I have been riding dressage for years and after reading this am glad that I am giving it up to ride western. :D I think my big warmblood will be happier and I know my older mare will be. I have friends who clinic with Eitan when he comes to their area and love every second. One of them also shows PSG. :cool:

My daughter is currently taking some western lessons on a friend's horse and you can see where her dressage training is helping her pick up the differences of western riding. The horse she is on does know how to carry himself over his back and is light in the bridle. The cues may be different but the result is the same, when done properly. She has already sold her dressage saddle and isn't looking back.

I have also noticed the western people are nicer than the dressage people, at least they are at my current barn. :)

Arcadien

Oct. 25, 2009, 06:11 PM

From what I've seen, dressage is the best way to train any horse to its highest athletic potential.
Various styles of western riding, while enjoyable watch, never seem to be exhibiting the highest athletic potential of the horse. I often find myself wondering what that western horse could do, had it had some basic dressage training!

Catsdorule-sigh

Oct. 25, 2009, 09:42 PM

Well, retraining goes both ways.

I used to live in an area where a horse went to a cowboy trainer to learn to go forward again. A dressage trainer in the area got hurt when this horse got so frustrated it went over backwards. Hurt the dressage trainer, too.

monstrpony

Oct. 26, 2009, 10:39 AM

From what I've seen, *GOOD, CORRECT* dressage is the best way to train any horse to its highest athletic potential. (emphasis added)

Agreed. But ...

Various styles of western riding, while enjoyable watch, never seem to be exhibiting the highest athletic potential of the horse. I often find myself wondering what that western horse could do, had it had some basic dressage training!

If the horse can hold the cow, either separating it from the herd, or at the end of a rope, that's "athletic potential" enough for me.

Piaffe, passage, pirouette, even airs above the ground, are all well and good, and an excellent expression of extreme athletic development. But a horse that has been developed specifically (and correctly!) for a working purpose is something to be admired (and a joy to watch), as well, even if it isn't the extreme of the individual horse's potential. And athletic development isn't everything. I sure as heck wouldn't want to toss a rope off of Salinero. (BTW, I'm confident that Buck Brannaman could, with some work, do this; Anky wouldn't have a prayer, she can't even survive a prize-giving--so who's the better horseman? Depends on what you value, but the older I get, the better survival looks to me).

That said, I am again disappointed that this discussion comes to both sides arguing that the worst of the other side is evidence that their side is better. Much better to compare the best of both sides. Alas, few are genuinely familiar with the best of both sides, and both sides are quick to grab that excuse, as well.

Kyzteke

Oct. 26, 2009, 11:01 AM

But, to me, you seem smitten with "all things Cowboy" and you don't have the experience to "see" what is right in front of you.

Actually, no -- I am "smitten" with good horsemanship.

I am "smitten" with the horsemanship of people like Walter Zettl, Reiner Klimke, Stephen Peters, Buck Brannamen, Ray Hunt, Bill & Tom Dorrance, Paul Belasik and that Hungarian guy who finished 5th in the '95 Volvo Cup Musical Freestyle...I can never remember his name. Rode a very chunky grey stallion, was totally self-taught and trained that horse from the ground up. Amazing rider.

I am not impressed by the horsemanship of Clinton Anderson, Anky VG, Isabel Werth and (frankly) much of what I see at the upper levels in the modern dressage ring. And I am just as un-impressed by what my limited exposure to WP has shown me. In fact, the first time I saw a WP class was only afew years ago...I thought the horses were lame!

As for experience, I've seen ALOT more dressage than I have western events. Again, I doubt you've actually seen too many of my "cowboy" heros ride, but I've seen your dressage heroes ride....many times -- so maybe that makes me MORE experienced :D.

Buck Brannaman is one of the most subtle, balanced, correct & quiet riders I've ever seen in my life...and my life includes seeing the riders of the Spanish Riding School perform (the real deal, not the popular knock-off). I have no doubt that he could train an upper level dressage horse...and actually manage to stay on top of it WITHOUT keeping it's chin pulled to it's chest....something Anky struggles with on a regular basis.

Personally, I don't believe straight dressage is the only athletic thing a horse can do, or even the hardest. Depends on the horse. An "R" line WB can do dressage easier than it can cow work, while a Doc Bar bred QH will find reining easier.

We do agree that there is bad horsemanship in every discipline, but I think you haven't really seen good western horsemanship. You sure won't see it in a typical reining class or WP. Get out there and "Google" "Californio School of horsemanship" and look around before you decide for sure. There is alot of good stuff going on outside a show ring, believe me. Top notch riding by people who don't really care if they take home a ribbon or not and certainly don't care enough about it to submit their horses to the type of torture it seems to take to win these days...

But to each his own....there are people out there who find Big Lick saddlebred classes beautiful to their eye...:eek:

katarine

Oct. 26, 2009, 11:03 AM

Actually, no -- I am "smitten" with good horsemanship.

But to each his own....there are people out there who find Big Lick saddlebred classes beautiful to their eye...:eek:

This is pretty funny, though I know you just want to make a point:

You meant Tn Walking Horses, NOT Saddlebreds :)

2Horse

Oct. 26, 2009, 11:07 AM

there are people out there who find Big Lick saddlebred classes beautiful to their eye...:eek:

Not to be pissy... But there is no Big Lick Saddlebreds. Walking Horses, yes.
Big difference in the breeds!

Kyzteke

Oct. 26, 2009, 11:14 AM

This is pretty funny, though I know you just want to make a point:

You meant Tn Walking Horses, NOT Saddlebreds :)

You are right -- NOT my area of expertise at all. I stand corrected :)

Cielo Azure

Oct. 26, 2009, 11:28 AM

NoDQhere

Oct. 26, 2009, 11:35 AM

(emphasis added)

That said, I am again disappointed that this discussion comes to both sides arguing that the worst of the other side is evidence that their side is better. Much better to compare the best of both sides. Alas, few are genuinely familiar with the best of both sides, and both sides are quick to grab that excuse, as well.

Actually, the thread started about "Cowboy Dressage" and several of us disagreed that the "Cowboy" stuff was Dressage at all. I believe everyone of us agrees that there are abuses in every discipline and I wasn't trying to state that real Dressage is "better". Just that what the Cowboys are calling Dressage and real Dressage are not the same.

Myself and Mr. NoDQhere are very familiar with both sides and understand that they are VERY different. Thats all I'm sayin'. :winkgrin:

Plumcreek

Oct. 26, 2009, 03:28 PM

. Unfortunately for the horses, there is abuse in all disciplines and until the "powers that be" figure out a way to stop it, it will continue. I think it has been more than 20 years now since the AQHA tried to change WP and nothing has happened. Hopefully the FEI will have better luck.

I get tired of this. If anyone was around WP 10 - 15 years ago, you would know how much it has changed for the good, and how really, really bad it was. Knowing that the AQHA rule book states in WP that the "tip of ears (not the poll - that is HUS) must be level with withers or above", I would say that based on these "hot off the press" candid contact sheets from the recently completed QH Congress, that most frames here are acceptable. And this is a show that is not under direct scrutiny of AQHA in at least half the classes. Enough already.

(wait a second for photos to load)
2 year old Masters
http://www.pleasurehorse.com/2009Congress/PhotoAlbum/9965/index.cfm?5
Junior Horse WP
http://www.pleasurehorse.com/2009Congress/PhotoAlbum/1421/index.cfm?1
WP Maturity
http://www.pleasurehorse.com/2009Congress/PhotoAlbum/9925/index.cfm?1
Amateur 50 and over WP
http://www.pleasurehorse.com/2009Congress/PhotoAlbum/2428/index.cfm?1
15 - 18 youth WP
http://www.pleasurehorse.com/2009Congress/PhotoAlbum/4429/index.cfm?1

Horses get tired with multiple go-rounds and multiple classes. Some heads get low. In classes I watched, the too-low heads did not get placed.

Kyzteke

Oct. 26, 2009, 05:10 PM

This is all fine and good but I am surprised that the Portuguese school and the art of Portuguese bull riding has not been brought up.

Anything with Merlin, of course:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMLUEZhNP-k
Watch the ending with the bull, and how he ride one handed and is holding the bandarilhas.

Then watch Nuno Oliveira
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiTTyi2He8&feature=fvst
Note how he rides one handed, with the whip over his shoulder or up in the air, as if it were a bandarilha or sword. Also, the way he allows his body and head to bend into the turns. Totally different than "competitive dressage" riding.

I spent my early years riding western and grew up around/learning from/watching "real" cowboys, I know that although the roots are there... the styles, methods of teaching, etc have evolved very differently from the Spanish and Portuguese roots ( in North, Central and South America).

(Edited) I still am not writing clearly. I think that if you look more at the Portuguese school or bullriding, you can see more clearly the link between western and dressage but that said, the differences now and those you would have seen 40 years ago are still significant. Other South American cowboy styles have their own traditions and some of those also are greatly influenced by the Portuguese and Spanish.

Growing up in a western saddle sure made it easy to sit the trot though!

CA -- Thank you , thank you, THANK YOU for posting those videos. Actually, if you read all my posts I did mention the Portuguese school, although I forgot to mention Nuno Oliveria as one of the riders I admire most.

As for Merlin, I thank you again for that....he was actually on my mind as a close to perfect example of a "western" dressage horse, but I could not for the life of me think of his name. I did a YouTube search under Palomino Lusitanio, but nothing came up. BTW, someone posted one of his videos on COTH prior to this and of course the conversation turned into a rant about the evils of bullfighting.

But if you watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc8uPP79WEU&feature=related
you see a horse who is straight, collected, round, TOTALLY working off his hindquarters and performing excellent dressage manuevers -- although at a much higher speed than normal. And watch the rider -- he is riding one handed, but look how still he is...no floppy legs or bouncing seat.

And let's please ignore the bullfighting part...I'm not thrilled with that part either...but the horse is not doing all that stuff just because there is a bull up his butt, he's doing it because he's a highly trained, highly collected athlete of the Portuguese School of dressage; widely accepted by everyone as just another SCHOOL of dressage. It just doesn't happen to be the popular one of today.

I think the fundamental difference between the Califorino school of dressage and the modern Germany/Dutch school is that the Califorino came down from the Spanish & Portuguese, where the horse was trained to various "high school" movements, but it was never without a purpose, and that purpose was ALWAYS working cattle and/or bullfighting.

Whereas the German/Dutch school came down from the tradition of European royalty/aristocracy who liked to show off their horses/horsemanship in small, inside menages "just because." The riding WAS the end point, the goal. With the S/P/C horses, it was never forgotten these horses were trained for a specific job.

LarkspurCO

Oct. 27, 2009, 02:02 PM

What I wonder is why the western disciplines so often compare themselves to dressage (can't tell you how many reiners have told me it's like western dressage) yet you don't you ever see it the other way around.

For example:

* GP free-style cutting (now this would liven up those boring tests)

* Jumper calf roping

* Hunter-working-cow-horse

* Polo bareback bronco busting

* Saddle-seat team roping

* Three day eventing - day three with team penning

* Ranch versatility racing

mbm

Oct. 27, 2009, 04:51 PM

* Saddle-seat team roping

now *that* would pay to see!

Cielo Azure

Oct. 27, 2009, 07:40 PM

kypeep

Oct. 27, 2009, 10:22 PM

Larkspur - Are there others that compare themselves besides reining? I personally would love to see the GP cutting:-)

An earlier poster mentioned no western discipline showing the true athleticism of the horse. I offer this as an example and hope it fulfills that criteria:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZdGPpl5jZ4

mbm

Oct. 27, 2009, 10:32 PM

honestly that horse looks like a dog.

very weird style.... i know nothing of cutting... do they points for doing that weird downward dog thing?

Plumcreek

Oct. 27, 2009, 11:02 PM

honestly that horse looks like a dog.

very weird style.... i know nothing of cutting... do they points for doing that weird downward dog thing?

Yeah, points and lots of money. But it is actually called being "catty".

kypeep

Oct. 27, 2009, 11:11 PM

mbm - always good to have an education about other disciplines, can be eye-opening at times as PlumCreek alluded to in her message. That "dog posture" requires a horse as strong in the back end as one who does piaffe, passage, or anything else dressage-wise. If you look closely, you will see that there are times he has NO weight on his front end, only his back end. If you think about how horses are built, it takes a horse extremely strong behind to do what he's doing in the video. Plumcreek is more than correct, that bit of "dog posture" pays off in a big way, to the tune of $350K or so in earnings for that particular horse, if I recall correctly:-) I'm not saying it's better than dressage or worse than dressage - I've done both dressage and cutting and enjoy both - just different and at this level requires as much of an athlete as upper level dressage.

amadee

Oct. 27, 2009, 11:40 PM

fabulous to watch. Personally I don't like to compare dressage to cutting, its like apples to oranges really.....each has their value in their respective discipline. What I do find disheartening is how it seems that all western riding is lumped into either natural horsemanship, WP or reining...... frankly most serious cutting and cow horse folks would find THAT idea offensive and I don't believe they'd want to be compared to dressage either.

Yes that horse shows a lot of "cattiness" and "cow" and kypeep is accurate in her description of what is required at this level....a ton of athleticism, conditioning and training not to mention generations of selective breeding......they did not just pull that horse out of a pasture and throw a saddle on him. And the riders must be trained and disciplined as well, their balance must be flawless and weight evenly distributed so as to not throw the horse off balance and they do it with little to no contact. I can tell you from personal experience that you can easily find yourself face down in the dirt with no horse under you from less of a move than seen in that video and can you imagine how frightening it is to NOT grab hold of that horse's mouth when he's moving with that cow?

Personally I'm in awe of some of the high level dressage horses and riders I've watched so far and I greatly respect the dedication and countless hours of training that have gone into making them what they are. Enjoy whatever it is you choose to do with your horse and do it well.

mbm

Oct. 27, 2009, 11:55 PM

thanks for the info.i said dog, becuase that horse looks just like how dogs look when herding and playing... i have never seen a cat do that stuff... :)

i am not sure what the comment about money has to do with anything? i dont think you can say x horse made x money so he is more athletic than z horse. money is purely a human thing and is meaningless in this context.

anyway, to each his own and as long as (real) horse welfare is top of the list and supersedes anything else then more power to ya.

dressage is not cutting is not eventing is not driving etc. why pretend they are the same? why not love your discipline of choice and ride to the best of your ability? if you want to incorporate bits of other disciplines into your work - great! more power to you... but dont then say you are doing cowboy dressage. instead why not say " i am a cowboy/girl and use dressage as the foundation of what i do"?

or like me you can say "i "do" dressage, but i like to go on trail rides and do some jumping on the side"

Plumcreek

Oct. 28, 2009, 12:40 AM

i am not sure what the comment about money has to do with anything? i dont think you can say x horse made x money so he is more athletic than z horse. money is purely a human thing and is meaningless in this context.
"

Cutters don't show for ribbons. Money won is a large part of the worth of a cutting horse, especially a stud. I brought money into it, because even though many good cutters can run back and forth and control the cow, and that certainly takes a lot of athleticism, it is when they 'get down' in that 'dog wanting to play' stance and dare the cow to get away from them, while dancing from one front leg to another, that the top money is won. That is special. All the RollKur in the world could not make them do that (joke, since that is the hot topic right now).

mbm

Oct. 28, 2009, 12:57 AM

All the RollKur in the world could not make them do that (joke, since that is the hot topic right now).

huh? what the heck does roll kur have to do with anything? roll kur doesn't "make" a dressage horse do piaffe/passage or even walk for that matter.

what point are you trying to make?

see.... here is the problem. when you come on a dressage board and tell people that cowboy dressage is just as good as .the same as "real" dressage you already are challenging folks and getting hackles up.... so then you have to go and compare good western to bad dressage, and finally you say that roll kur (presumably how all dressage horses are trained?) could not be used to create a cutter.

what is the point of this thread again?

eta: ok, i missed the "joke" the first time around.... still - my comment stands... what is the point of this thread?

Plumcreek

Oct. 28, 2009, 02:15 AM

I was late to this thread and am just commenting on the cutting horse clip (besides my western pleasure vent). Okaay, the RK reference joke was a little reachy, but the underlying thinking was that cutting horses are highy rewarded for the eiptome of exhibiting joy in their work - when they dance in front of a cow and just dare him to try and get past them. I was taught that the goal of dressage was a horse exhibiting happiness in its work and becoming a partner, etc. I am sure it is the goal for most. But the value of ridable winning dressage horses is huge, and roll kur is just one of the many tools that some use in making a winning horse, but I personally do not think the end result is a happy horse. You know it when you see it - the highly trained horse that likes its job vs the highly trained robot. Similarly controversial methods can produce a technically good robotic cutting horse, but will not make a cutting horse do that little extra and show that personality that (thankfully) scores high; they have to want to, and you can see it in their eyes.

kypeep

Oct. 28, 2009, 08:10 AM

mbm - I am not trying to say anything bad about dressage or that cutting is dressage. In fact, dressage was my first riding discipline. I rode strictly dressage horses for many years, through PSG, and got to school some of the GP as well. It is the foundation for all horses I have, whatever discipline they are geared towards. Surprisingly, my "best-trained" cutting horse, started/trained by one of the top hands in the cutting business long before I bought him, came with all the foundations of good dressage and even beyond just training level basics. I say surprisingly because it certainly was not what I expected. However, now I can understand one element of his trainer's success in the show pen -- his horses' foundations are outstanding for any discipline.

As to why I posted the cutting video - there was an earlier post (cannot remember who) indicating that the person hadn't seen a western horse perform at what might be considered the top of athletic ability. I offered that video as one example. Also, cutting horses are termed to be "catty" because the really good ones assume the crouch of a cougar, and they are quick and limber in their movement. As an aside, for me personally, learning to ride this type of movement was more difficult than anything I had previously encountered horseback.The reference to money earned on my part was to indicate the caliber of the horse - a cutting horse that earned this kind of money would be considered among the elite of the industry, akin to owning a dressage horse that competed in the Olympics.

Again, I am not trying to say that a cutting horse is a dressage horse. From personal experience, I can appreciate the athletic ability of both disciplines.

monstrpony

Oct. 28, 2009, 08:45 AM

why not love your discipline of choice and ride to the best of your ability?

Well, I think we're just as entitled to get our hackles up when all western styles are lumped together and judged by someone's bad experience with one of the embarassing manifestations of western horsemanship. Just like the dressage people do when all of dressage is condemned as "rollkur".

if you want to incorporate bits of other disciplines into your work - great! more power to you... but dont then say you are doing cowboy dressage. instead why not say " i am a cowboy/girl and use dressage as the foundation of what i do"?

So ... how is a cowboy incorporating dressage into his training NOT "cowboy dressage"? :confused:

I thought that was the whole point ... that SOME cowboys DO incorporate dressage principles into their horsemanship.

(oh, and PS--the horse looks like a dog because he's doing the same job that a herding dog would do. I admire the athleticism of a good herding dog as much as I admire Totilas. It's an animal in partnership with a human, enjoying what it was bred and developed for. No more, no less.)

LarkspurCO

Oct. 28, 2009, 12:47 PM

Larkspur - Are there others that compare themselves besides reining?

LOL. Well I was thinking about the "cowboy dressage" but yes, I see and hear it all over. I like to search CL for "dressage" and see how many western trail horses are listed that have great dressage movement and sometimes even piaffe. Really I am just looking for saddles but I always find these funny ads.

An earlier poster mentioned no western discipline showing the true athleticism of the horse. I offer this as an example and hope it fulfills that criteria:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZdGPpl5jZ4

What a beautiful horse!

Kyzteke

Oct. 28, 2009, 04:54 PM

see.... here is the problem. when you come on a dressage board and tell people that cowboy dressage is just as good as .the same as "real" dressage you already are challenging folks and getting hackles up...

what is the point of this thread again?

Why should it get your hackles up? Heaven forbid someone say the emperor has no clothes or, in clearer language, AVG and her ilk can't ride worth a poop.

First of all, the point of this thread as far as I saw it was to:
1. examine the different VALID schools of "real" dressage; compare their differences AND their similarities.
2. to educate that the stuff being done in the modern competitive dressage ring is NOT the only "real" dressage out there. It's simply the flavor de jour. And this is NOT just my opinion, but the opinion of many other dressage riders with far more experience & talent than I. I would venture to guess (because they've pretty much said as much) that the stuff you see winning in the upper level dressage rings today is also not "real" dressage to people like WAZ & Klaus Balkenhaul. And they are not dumb cowboys.
3. horses ridden by people using (gasp) western saddles can perform the exact same movements as high school dressage horses do, although they are traditionally ridden with less contact....and it is STILL dressage.
4. (and this was my point)...many of those guys/gals mentioned in #3 do a far better job of meeting the original goals & criteria of "dressage" than many of the riders winning in "real" dressage today.

So I guess we would have to ask, "What IS 'real' dressage?"

I know my answer, but your's may vary....

katarine

Oct. 28, 2009, 05:24 PM

hunt_jumpfl

Oct. 28, 2009, 05:36 PM

Many aspects of this discussion have been quite interesting. I've never been a "dressage rider", but I've always been taught that dressage is the basis for most disciplines. I rode and showed hunter/jumpers for many years and we often rode clinics with well respected dressage riders/trainers/judges. While I never aspired to school my horses (or myself) to high level dressage, I would expect many of my equitation, jumper, and even hunters to be able to complete the components of a third level dressage test. I wouldn't expect them to be able to go show, but they should be able to cleanly perform the maneuvers (half pass, turn on haunches, collection and extension, changes, etc).

I now ride and show reiners, and much like my hunter/jumper/eq horses I expect that same level of basic "dressage" fundamentals. I expect my mare to drive off of her hind end and move straight with her back lifted and soft. I expect her to be light in the front and responsive to my seat and leg cues. How do I achieve this? With the same "dressage" basics that I was taught riding english. My mare is bred to work cows (she is by Paid By Chic out of a Peppy Badger Chex mare, so carries Smart Chic Olena and Peppy San Badger pretty close up for anyone into QH)...however she half passes, does her flying changes on a straight line, does shoulder-in, etc. - all as part of her training to achieve her reining maneuvers (she is not a finished reiner). Learning to achieve straightness, forward motion with hind end engagement, and responsiveness through the different body parts is what will enable her to spin and stop correctly as a reining horse. So while I don't tell people that I ride dressage or cowboy dressage, I do consider the basic components of what I do to have their origins in dressage. I don't think this crowd would like it any more than the topic of "cowboy dressage" if I were to come in and say that the movements that I use in my training were invented by reiners, hunter/jumpers, or anyone else - they weren't. Am I riding a "dressage horse" - no, but I do believe that the fundamental components of dressage are fundamental to many disciplines and that should be celebrated and encouraged not claimed as sacred to one sport. So if we are not to call them "dressage" basics, fundamentals, etc., what should we call them? BTW, flame away as I am also one who explains my love of the reiners as coming from its cross between the precision and intricacies like dressage combined with the speed of the jumpers. No, I don't think it is dressage or jumpers, but I find that the best way to describe what drew me to start riding reiners. Many of my friends and family viewed it as a drastic switch in disciplines yet I see nearly as many similarities in the well trained horses as differences.

LarkspurCO

Oct. 28, 2009, 06:50 PM

If your reining horse can perform 3rd level movements correctly you must be doing something right.:yes:

I'm not sure why some people take it personally when those in other disciplines liken what they do to dressage. Maybe they think it marginalizes what they do, and are forgetting that imitation is sincerest form of flattery.

I can see why comparing marginal or even completely incorrect movements to the correctly executed dressage movements can be insulting to those who work and sweat for years to get it right. Sort of like if I were to swing a rope and lasso one of my goats and then say I am skilled in the fundamentals of roping, the really good ropers might take issue with that (after they got done laughing at me).

The snob in me would say that the difference boils down to lack of understanding of straightness, throughness and bend. The rider in me would say...Shut up and ride!

hunt_jumpfl

Oct. 28, 2009, 08:30 PM

Oh, she's not there at this point (we are both works in progress;) ). Also, I should clarify that I don't ever expect that the movements (and certainly not the "frame" I am trying to achieve) would be considered correct third level collection. However, I think the fundamentals of using the hindquarters and back along with straightness through the maneuvers are the keys to most disciplines. I understand that there is much more to a true dressage horse, but these are what I think lay a good foundation on most any horse and what dressage has to offer as a cross training tool for a number of horses.

As an example, one of my biggest issues with my mare in her rundowns for the stops is that she wants to get crooked. Without straightness I can't stop. Sometimes it starts with losing a shoulder, but more commonly she simply pops out a little too much in her ribcage and loses straightness there which commonly snowballs to a much bigger problem and missing her stop. Another issue with our stops at the moment is that she anticipates and in doing so she gets flat through her back losing her engagement in the hindquarters in the rundowns - again, unless you are sitting on a powerhouse you can't stop big if your horse isn't engaged through the hindquarters and lifting its back and shoulder. Learning to do a shoulder-in or half pass correctly in my mind is learning to control the movements of the different parts of the horse (the shoulders, the haunches, the back, the ribcage, etc) while maintaining engagement. So while I don't necessarily want these at the same level of collection and I will ultimately want to lessen my direct contact with the mouth (to go to a curb and one hand or eventually bridleless), I need to do so without losing the straightness, engagement, throughness, or ultimately the feeling of connection (and yes - this is drastically different). Whether that makes what I school dressage movements or not I don't know, but I do think there are some definite similarities. So what do we call it?

AZ Native

Oct. 28, 2009, 10:15 PM

AZ Native

Oct. 28, 2009, 10:27 PM

Why should it get your hackles up? Heaven forbid someone say the emperor has no clothes or, in clearer language, AVG and her ilk can't ride worth a poop.

First of all, the point of this thread as far as I saw it was to:
1. examine the different VALID schools of "real" dressage; compare their differences AND their similarities.
2. to educate that the stuff being done in the modern competitive dressage ring is NOT the only "real" dressage out there. It's simply the favor de jour. And this is NOT just my opinion, but the opinion of many other dressage riders with far more experience & talent than I. I would venture to guess (because they've pretty much said as much) that the stuff you see winning in the upper level dressage rings today is also not "real" dressage to people like WAZ & Klaus Balkenhaul. And they are not dumb cowboys.
3. horses ridden by people using (gasp) western saddles can perform the exact same movements as high school dressage horses do, although they are traditionally ridden with less contact....and it is STILL dressage.
4. (and this was my point)...many of those guys/gals mentioned in #3 do a far better job of meeting the original goals & criteria of "dressage" than many of the riders winning in "real" dressage today.

So I guess we would have to ask, "What IS 'real' dressage?"

I know my answer, but your's may vary....

As you, Peep and Rogue Empire have said, and I have heard Buck say on more than 1 occasion, classical training or good horsemanship is the same whether or not it's done in western tack and clothes or english tack and clothes.
Eitan does dressage movements in western tack and clothing.We
can argue all day long as to what is correct or not in his rides ( I like most of what I've seen and my friends as I mentioned say riding his horses is an amazing experience ) or what is correct or not with the upper level competitive dressage riders. It is up to each of us to educate ourselves as to what is '' correct '' horsmenship.
Thanks everyone that took the time to post vids and help educate me !:cool:

AZ Native

Oct. 28, 2009, 10:30 PM

So ... how is a cowboy incorporating dressage into his training NOT "cowboy dressage"? :confused:

I thought that was the whole point ... that SOME cowboys DO incorporate dressage principles into their horsemanship.

Loved this too !:D

Kyzteke

Oct. 29, 2009, 03:53 AM

Kyzteke, given the continuum of definitions of dressage, of good, of quality, and MBMs glaring and obvious lack of understanding of western horses in any real way, you do know you are spitting in the wind, right?

Yeah, I kinda do...:sadsmile:

But it is frustrating to me that people think ALL western riders/ie "cowboys" are hamfisted ignoramouses' (what IS the plural of that word? Ignoramice?:D) just as it is frustrating (to me) for them to think ALL upper level dressage riders winning today are superior horsemen.

I think we can all agree that winning any subjectively judged competition (like dressage, WP, etc) can often go off take a sport off on very wrong directions, far from the original intention of that sport.

I watch tapes of winning GP riders going back as far as the 50's and I have seen the style of dressage change -- not only the style of riding, but also the style/frame/shape of the horse. The quality of the ride has changed drastically as well -- from something free, harmonious and joyful on the part of both the rider AND the horse to something stiff, heavy and clumsy.

Contrary to what MBM thinks, I've watch ALOT of dressage (very little western events actually) and much of the stuff I see winning today is not pretty to my eye at all.

OTOH, when I watch riders like BB, I see a shadow of those older style dressage riders....and his horses work with a lightness, a balance & expression that is sorely missing from so many of the winning GP riders of today.

Maybe the sport will turn around...maybe it won't. But my point was (and always will be) that the fundamentals of dressage: harmony between horse & rider, straightness, balance, expression, collection, precision and submission can and do exist outside the modern competitive dressage arena...and can be done by guys who call themselves "cowboys."

AND most of the movements that are expected of the highly trained "dressage" horse are often the same movements & principals expected of the finished western bridle horse.

That is not to say EVERY cowboy can/will do this, just like it's not to say EVERY person with an English saddle rides "real" dressage. True horsemen are rare today, IMHO. But just having a western saddle or not expecting a constantly taut rein does not make someone incapable of riding "real" dressage.

katarine

Oct. 29, 2009, 10:33 AM

True horsemen have always been rare. I don't think that's a new phenomenon.

I was thinking about this when I was feeding horses last night: a good horse is a good horse, in any tack or get up. A person who really just plain likes horses watches all sorts of events, all of them, and sees the good horses. I can admire a good, honest goat tying horse. A barrel mare running loose and easy in a snaffle and nothing tying her head down. Cross country horses eating up ground and jumps I wouldn't dream of attempting. A dressage horse dancing with enthusiasm and fire and willingness, controlled heat. A cutter eating up a cow and a stock horse working a cow in the middle. on and on and ON.

Good is good and when I come across a body who says well that ain't nuthin, frankly, I feel a little bit sorry for them. They are missing out on so much. But I don't worry about educating them or fixing them. They'll find it or not, when and if they are ever ready.

Buck and Ray and Martin and Tom and Bill didn't and don't worry about them, so I'm just offering that maybe you might not either :)

mbm

Oct. 29, 2009, 11:41 AM

Yeah, I kinda do...:sadsmile:

But it is frustrating to me that people think ALL western riders/ie "cowboys" are hamfisted ignoramouses' (what IS the plural of that word? Ignoramice?:D) just as it is frustrating (to me) for them to think ALL upper level dressage riders winning today are superior horsemen.

see..... this is a problem. why would i continue conversing in this thread if this is the kind of stuff you are posting?

did you even read my posts?

and if you read the rest of the dressage board you would know that your second statement above is patently false.

Catsdorule-sigh

Oct. 29, 2009, 06:09 PM

Kypeep:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZdGPpl5jZ4

Thank you, that was real pretty.

It was fun watching that horse literally bait that cow to move, (Being catty) but wow, he was sitting under himself pretty much in a low levade-like posture, moving his front legs like a cat.

I'm also thankful that, for the most part, while the necks might be kind of level, you don't see the really low necks of the WP horses and that ilk on good cutting horses and reiners. It has always seemed to me that for real performance, a western horse has to have a good neck or they can't balance and come under themselves properly to do what this stallion did.

Plus, listen to the whoopin' and hollerin' and the turn back horse is working too, yet these horses stay focused on that cow. No quiet arenas, don't dare make a sound for them. Happens in reining, too.

Plumcreek

Oct. 29, 2009, 10:38 PM

I'm also thankful that, for the most part, while the necks might be kind of level, you don't see the really low necks of the WP horses and that ilk on good cutting horses and reiners. It has always seemed to me that for real performance, a western horse has to have a good neck or they can't balance and come under themselves properly to do what this stallion did.

Sigh. That low neck set on the shoulders garbage is going to take decades to erase.

kypeep

Oct. 29, 2009, 11:03 PM

Now Plumcreek, I would say Cats is just trying to learn. It's hard to know about western horses if you haven't trained or competed in that discipline. I will be the first to say that cutting is its own world:-) Here's the deal with a cutter:

You can't really dictate a cutter's neckset while working cattle. It is largely a function of the horse's conformation as well as his desire to use his head and neck to "hold" a cow. The ideal cutter will crouch down overall and go eyeball-to-eyeball to the cow, with the horse's "belly in the sand" as TR Dual Rey did in the video. From experience, I can tell you that it is so much easier to ride the ones that keep their necks and bodies more upright. Riding TR Dual Rey while working a cow is probably about like riding a fast-moving slinky. I am really not sure I could stay aboard for the ride(s) in his video. Or it would sure take some glue on my behind and both hands pushing on that saddle horn full-force.

The born-and-bred cutter is an amazing creature in my eyes. Many are geared specifically for "the" NCHA Futurity that is held in December of their 3YO year. They cannot be shown in another show until that time or they are ineligible to compete in the Futurity. They can attend "pre-works" but these in no way offer the same huge, whoopin, hollerin' venue as Ft Worth does in December. Furthermore, they can't step foot in that particular arena in Ft Worth until it is their respective turn to compete. And yet, most stay "hooked" on that cow, and the best and most mature make it to the semi-finals. Then you really have some whoopin and hollerin'!!! On finals night, the place is filled to capacity, with even more noise.

The cutters generally are really focused horses when it comes to cattle. I've shown at many an indoor wherein there were kids riding bicycles, skateboards, etc. and running all around the top of the arena. Horses never bat an eye, never even notice anything but the cattle, generally speaking. I think generations of breeding have made them what they are. The ones that aren't this way often get thrown out of a "cutting program" real quickly.

Edited to add: The fact that they ignore the ruckus around the arena speaks to the "cow" in them. I can say 4 of our 5 cutting horses will notice even the tiniest movement around them; at least 3 of them are fairly spooky horses when riding out, even though their norm for conditioning is trotting/loping around the outside of a polo field; all 5 will walk into anywhere there are cattle and not notice anything else but the cattle. Has to be the breeding, that's all I can figure.

Plumcreek

Oct. 30, 2009, 02:17 AM

"Now Plumcreek, I would say Cats is just trying to learn. It's hard to know about western horses if you haven't trained or competed in that discipline. "

No, no. I was agreeing with Cats. Athletic discipline western horses need good neck conformation, same as any other athletic horse. The popularity of certain peanut rolling WP studs of the last decade with necks coming out between their front legs was a really bad thing.

I was lucky to compete in WP in the late 60s in California when they were still 'bridle horses' with correctly balanced conformation and above level, bridled heads on light contact, and they flowed. It was a beautiful class to watch. The athleticism was lost with the peanut rollers, as was my personal interest in competing.

monstrpony

Oct. 30, 2009, 08:46 AM

I was lucky to compete in WP in the late 60s in California when they were still 'bridle horses' with correctly balanced conformation and above level, bridled heads on light contact, and they flowed. It was a beautiful class to watch. The athleticism was lost with the peanut rollers, as was my personal interest in competing.

Amen. Tanqueray, anyone?

My current fun horse is a recovering "modern" WP horse (ca. about 12 years ago) and is, in fact, the reason I came to "cowboy dressage" horsemanship. When I got him, I was unaware of what was going on in the modern WP scene and couldn't for the life of me figure out this horse's wierd reaction to spurs and contact. Now that I've resurrected his natural, still slow-legged gaits, I tell people that if I'd had him "back then", I'd be famous today, but there still is that niggling little issue that I can't quite get his head up out of the dirt. Part is conformational, but I think part is either mental or actual physical dammage from his time in peanut-roller school. I actually had to have my bridle bit rebuilt for him so he can carry the bit with his head and neck at a more natural (for him) angle; he's chunky anyway and just can't quite flex enough at the poll ... It's been quite an education.

kypeep

Oct. 30, 2009, 10:46 AM

Plumcreek - My sincere apologies! Wish I had seen the pleasure horses back in those days - sounds like what a pleasure horse ought to be.

Plumcreek

Oct. 30, 2009, 12:47 PM

It's interesting how it all went into the dumper. I had a front row seat, and if you're interested, this is what I saw. Circa 1970, there were two schools of western pleasure; the 16 h California bridle horses who stayed on the west coast at regional big open shows and the breed shows, and Texas and points East where the cutting horse warmup was considered the epitome of good western pleasure (and you still hear that - could be true) and that look won the WP classses. The Texas/Eastern smaller, chunkier horses were not trained to go slow for WP, more like ridden 2 hours or all night, whatever lenth of time it took, to get them tired and they would just hang their heads out level and roll along on a draped rein. (I moved to Colo then, saw all this, and changed disciplines). A couple things happened: the AQHA World Show started so the west coasters ventured east, and a rule was passed that AQHA judges could not judge in their home state. So the California bridle horses were now being judged by Texas/Eastern standards, and the judges from elsewhere were wowed by the big streamlined California horses and imported them East (Alisa Lark, dam of Rugged Lark, was one) but wanted them to crawl along like the local horses with heads down on a draped rein. You can imagine that a short, thick horse can do this when tired, a big, more TB/cross horse falls apart when asked to lope slow with head down on a draped rein when tired. The big horses were now the preferred look as they could do the all-around also. But, few could train the big horses to show fresh like they had been on the West Coast (with above level heads and light contact support), in the new low unnatural (for them) frame, so the tactics and gimmicks to lower heads and slow the gaits started.

(Specialization has been a good thing for the breed show horses, as now they are bred to have the right conformation for the physical requirements of their classes.)

The bad era in WP was brought about, and eventually mostly rectified, by changes in judging standards, and I see disheartening similarities in Dressage and the discussions re Anky and RK on this board. What wins at the highest levels is everything in the direction of a sport. Posters here are asking why they should breed the best horses they can, hope they make the big time, only to see them possibly be subjected to unacceptable treatment, in their breeder's eyes. Just like I thought while watching WP, if that is what it takes to win, don't wanna play. The low point for me was watching a World Champion WP horse lope up to get his trophy with ears pinned flat to his head. Nope, and many like me voted with their feet. It took 20 years to hit bottom in number of participants, and another 10 years to get better, after changes in judging finally started to take hold. The relevence to dressage is that horse sport disciplines are pyramid shaped: The few elite at the top are supported by the pros and serious amateurs in the upper middle and the bulk of lower level riders below. If the dream of achieving the top, or even being able to watch in person the top elite riders and horses and admiring what you see, is trashed, then people that make up the sport base will go elsewhere.

Reining did not start big, it was much less prestigeous (sp?) than WP years ago. The breed show trainers who could not stomach what it took to train a winner in WP switched to reining, and their numbers helped fuel the purse money and rapid growth of that class in direct inverse porportion to the decline of numbers in WP. Just sayin'.

.

MyReality

Oct. 30, 2009, 03:49 PM

There is no such thing as cowboy dressage. It is not fair to the general western riders, it is not fair to the dressage riders. If you keep associating the two together, there will be meaningless comparison and argument. We need to understand, every discipline in the horse industry will share some similarities... there is bound to be lots of copying and borrowing of ideas. But the bottom line is, the way each discipline has evolved over the years, they have become different things, and has different directives, and different audience and market... despite the fact they may somewhere in time share the same root.

Everything is "training". Reining is not hunter, but both are training. There is no point basing the definition a sport discipline on the historical literary meaning, used in a time of aristocracy with limited diversity. We all know what dressage is, as a sport in modern days. There is no need to think dressage is special, nor do we need to be so humble it is no longer a specific discipline.

If any of you have been to Portugal, they have "classical dressage". They also have "working equitation", with some dressage like movements, but obviously for a whole different purpose, and a whole different sport. I don't see the two having identity crises, and working equitation is very popular.

For the proponents of "cowboy dressage", if you really want it to become something, you MUST have the clarity that it is different from dressage. Maybe you would even think it is better, which is nothing to be ashamed about. But why do you want to be in a position of being scruitinized, and having to defend yourself, when you really have something good going. All you need is a real identity and a real system and directive, and I can see it take off.

If anyone comes to me saying she wants to learn dressage but insists she uses a western saddle, and a curb bit no contact, I will tell that person, sorry I cannot help. I rode in western saddles too, and they put you too far back to have any use in dressage, which wants the rider to sit in the centre. I also would not know how to ask for flexion with no contact, I would not know how to teach outside rein when there is no contact, I would not know how to ask a horse to stretch into a slowly releasing contact when there is no contact to begin with, etc etc.

Cross training with dressage is totally different thing. Cross training is like a runner who also swims. Swimming is not running, but it helps running. When his swimming coach tells him he should have less bend in his legs, I hope he would not say "that is not how runners do it." A western rider who cross trains in dressage, I expect him/her to do dressage things when training in dressage, and do western things when doing his/her western discipline. If you need to debate which one is which, you are really not cross training, you are just confused.

I don't understand why we are discussing WP (or cutting or reining)... it has nothing to do with dressage, and the majority of us (except a few) are ignorant about them, and has no right to judge them.

kypeep

Oct. 30, 2009, 04:24 PM

PlumCreek - Thank you for an eye-opening education about the evolution. I had no idea. I just knew that growing up, I saw photos of what you describe in California and then later saw in person the other style that prevailed. Naturally, I far prefer the style of WP that came out of California.

CFFarm

Oct. 31, 2009, 07:18 AM

[http://www.cowboydressage.com/video/DWC/video-4/trigger.html[/QUOTE]

Isn't this the guy who was selling the gadget to tie head to tail in order to teach lateral flexion?

Oct. 31, 2009, 07:50 AM

A western rider who cross trains in dressage, I expect him/her to do dressage things when training in dressage, and do western things when doing his/her western discipline. If you need to debate which one is which, you are really not cross training, you are just confused.

:yes:

NoDQhere

Oct. 31, 2009, 11:42 AM

[http://www.cowboydressage.com/video/DWC/video-4/trigger.html

Isn't this the guy who was selling the gadget to tie head to tail in order to teach lateral flexion?[/QUOTE]

Yes.:rolleyes:

NoDQhere

Oct. 31, 2009, 11:45 AM

Excellent post MyReality.

mbm

Oct. 31, 2009, 03:52 PM

i remember the page on this guys old website that sold the head tying thing... this was a couple years back i believe.

i remember because i got very upset about it :)

monstrpony

Oct. 31, 2009, 07:23 PM

The bad era in WP was brought about, and eventually mostly rectified, by changes in judging standards, and I see disheartening similarities in Dressage and the discussions re Anky and RK on this board. What wins at the highest levels is everything in the direction of a sport. Posters here are asking why they should breed the best horses they can, hope they make the big time, only to see them possibly be subjected to unacceptable treatment, in their breeder's eyes. Just like I thought while watching WP, if that is what it takes to win, don't wanna play.

I think your are spot-on with this, and I, too, find it very disheartening to face this reality, that dressage is headed down the same path. And it has nothing to do with which discipline has more genuine roots; the issue is an entirely modern one that has grown out of an instant-gratification, I-want-to-buy-it-now culture.
Reining did not start big, it was much less prestigeous (sp?) than WP years ago. The breed show trainers who could not stomach what it took to train a winner in WP switched to reining, and their numbers helped fuel the purse money and rapid growth of that class in direct inverse porportion to the decline of numbers in WP. Just sayin'.

My impression--and I admit right now that I haven't been watching as closely as Plumcreek--is that reining grew our of the old working cow horse classes. As it became more difficult to have access to cows to work and practice on, and as more people wanted a version of the sport that they could participate in that didn't require the years of good horsemanship that it takes to become adept at working cows, "dry" classes became more popular. Yet again, the style morphed to make the ideal horse a more rare (read: expensive) commodity, and to be more attractive to a less educated audience (read: flashy and fast). Anyone who works cows on horseback for a living today readily admits that what is seen in most reining competitions has no use in real cow work. While the popularity may, in part, be due to disenchantment with WP, it's still, also, another discipline that has gone down the path of losing sight of its origins in favor of the economic impetus of the competitive world ...

keeley

Oct. 31, 2009, 07:33 PM

I just recently watched Buck riding at a clinic here a few weeks ago. As he was riding his bridle horse, I remember thinking I bet he could easily go into a pirouette, piaffe or passage at any moment. I wondered how fun it would be to ride that horse. He was amazing. Good riding and good horsemanship is beautiful to behold no matter what the tack.

Plumcreek

Oct. 31, 2009, 09:08 PM

My impression--and I admit right now that I haven't been watching as closely as Plumcreek--is that reining grew our of the old working cow horse classes. As it became more difficult to have access to cows to work and practice on, and as more people wanted a version of the sport that they could participate in that didn't require the years of good horsemanship that it takes to become adept at working cows, "dry" classes became more popular. Yet again, the style morphed to make the ideal horse a more rare (read: expensive) commodity, and to be more attractive to a less educated audience (read: flashy and fast). Anyone who works cows on horseback for a living today readily admits that what is seen in most reining competitions has no use in real cow work. While the popularity may, in part, be due to disenchantment with WP, it's still, also, another discipline that has gone down the path of losing sight of its origins in favor of the economic impetus of the competitive world ...

You are right, reining did grow out of working cowhorse and, like show ring hunters, has morphed into a style vs working class. It also helped reining a bunch that the scoring was changed from a one number score, like hunters, to dressage-type scoring.

What I was refering to was the numbers. When I was doing reining (1984-ish), trainers were begging entries to make a 10 horse class, while western pleasure had 30 - 40 entries. As WP got worse and worse, one by one, the trainers started disappearing, and were found at the new all-reining competitions, and this was before reining was a big deal. It got so that by 2000, reining at an AQHA show had 60 entries per class, while the WP had ~8 per class. But most of the all-around trainers I used to know at the horse shows are no longer there unless the show has big reining classes - they show reiners exclusively now.

Catsdorule-sigh

Oct. 31, 2009, 11:02 PM

Sorry to get back to this so late.

Yes, I was referring to the conformation of the cutting horses. You don't see much of that low neck set. In fact, most of them would be acceptable for dressage. I believe to do what these horses do takes conformation just as good as most dressage in the neck area and that's not a neck that ties in low on top and low down in the shoulders. I have never seen anything attractive in a low neck set, don't like to see horses in ads with their heads down and for the life of me, don't know why that head down thing seems to be popular with hunters shown in ads.

As for WP, I've witnessed someone trying to take a lovely, long strided, TB-type QH and make it move with it's head down. Lots of bucking going on and I don't think- I least I hope- that horse lasted very long with that Amateur. Another one that belonged in the hunter ring or dressage. I've seen what they did to WP horses including watching a schooling (not for long) a horse in a curb with running reins figured so low the horse's head was pulled down to its knees. So I went to an Arab show and could not believe (It had been a while) people would WANT to have these horses travel like WP peanut rollers.

Personally, I would rather see the poll at least level with or above the withers and not the ears. Have never, ever understood what "pleasure" could be derived from riding a horse who can't see where its going.

kypeep

Oct. 31, 2009, 11:40 PM

Cats - Sorry, I misunderstood - I thought you meant how cutting horses carry their necks when working cattle! I agree with your assessment of the cutting horse neck and shoulder conformation.

SillyMe

Nov. 1, 2009, 09:18 AM

doesn't mean it is correct. This applies to all disciplines. If I wanted to see what was "correct" in dressage, WP or cutting for example, I am not sure I would see it at a show.

The horse shows as they are today are just where the money goes. I read most of the previous threads, but don't think either side is competent to judge another. IMHO, the trainers who train "for the horse" don't train to appeal to a judge that gets paid by an association that gets paid by trainers and owners with bug bucks.

All disciplines have been "corrupted" by the money and politics involved in showing and breeding. I challenge everyone (including myself) to make training choices based on what will improve your own communication with your horse at the time and space that you are in at the moment.

I strive everyday to make the small amount of time with my horse enjoyable for her and me. It has nothing to do with whether or not I will impress someone else.

Kyzteke

Nov. 1, 2009, 10:24 AM

There is no such thing as cowboy dressage.

Please clarify. Are you saying cowboys can't "do" dressage? And (I ask again) what the heck IS dressage anyway?

Please define it.

AZ Native

Nov. 2, 2009, 10:01 AM

Isn't this the guy who was selling the gadget to tie head to tail in order to teach lateral flexion?

Yes.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]by No DQ

I didn't have any idea when i posted his video, or I would not have done so. That goes against everything i believe good horsemanship should be.

Nov. 2, 2009, 10:37 AM

Please clarify. Are you saying cowboys can't "do" dressage? And (I ask again) what the heck IS dressage anyway?

Please define it.

What's to clarify? There is no "cowboy" dressage any more than there is "saddle seat" dressage or "hunter" dressage. Just as there is no "dressage" cutting or "dressage" western pleasure or "dressage" reining. It's one discipline or the other. Not both.

monstrpony

Nov. 2, 2009, 11:07 AM

What's to clarify? There is no "cowboy" dressage any more than there is "saddle seat" dressage or "hunter" dressage. Just as there is no "dressage" cutting or "dressage" western pleasure or "dressage" reining. It's one discipline or the other. Not both.

You do dressage a tremendous disservice when you begin to think that way.

Dressage is a training philosophy, as well as a discipline. To say that there is some boundary that prohibits those who ride in other styles from honoring the dressage training philosophy is just ... wrong.

Nov. 2, 2009, 11:53 AM

You do dressage a tremendous disservice when you begin to think that way.

Dressage is a training philosophy, as well as a discipline. To say that there is some boundary that prohibits those who ride in other styles from honoring the dressage training philosophy is just ... wrong.

Oh good grief. How I have sinned.

I'm not doing any disservice to anyone. I'm just tired of hearing other riding "philosophies" (if that's the term that makes you happy) referred to as a type of dressage. They aren't. They are what they are.

And since I've done both (western "philosophy" and dressage "philosophy") I can tell you that some things are similar and others aren't. One example: working western horses and dressage horses both need to be through and work off their hindquarters. But working western horses are not asked for the degree of flexion that dressage-trained horses are. And dressage-trained horses are not asked to stop on a dime, roll back on their haunches and dash off in the opposite direction. Does that mean they have NOTHING in common? No. Does that mean one is better than the other? No. Does that mean that a horse that does one cannot do the other? No. But they are still different in some very fundamental ways.

If someone wants to start a new brand of "philosophy," have at it. But come up with a better term. Calling something "blah blah" dressage is misleading and just confuses the issue.