Risks vs. Rewards when hunter shopping

[wildswan]

I'm posting this for a friend who has asked for my advice as she is a "horse mom", knows nothing about buying a horse, and is not sure what to do. My friend is in the market for a first horse (hunter) for her 13 yo daughter. Daughter is fairly good SAJHA level rider, very capable. They found what appeared to be a good match within the price range they could afford, made an offer, and had the PPE done.

The horse is 8yo registered wb mare, excellent bloodlines for multiple generations and by THE TOP hunter sire. She has good conformation (if I were to criticize I would say a little long backed, but very good loin connection. Good feet, with good heels. Mare has a tendency to stand camped under so it can appear that she is calf kneed, but when stood up properly you see that this is not the case. Good mover, with really good form over fences, excellent rhythm. In my opinion, considerably underpriced IF the PPE showed no major issues.

She was started as a 3 yo and has a limited, but very impressive show record. According to seller she has had inconsistent training; i.e., in training for a few months, shown, then out to pasture for long period. Brought back to work for few months, shown, out to pasture again, etc. At sometime in the past she suffered an injury to a lateral collateral ligament in her right front, was rehabbed and appeared to have no subsequent ill effects. According to the seller, she also had her stifles injected a couple years ago as a "preventative".

Apparently the mare had been back in training for a few months before my friend went to look at her last week. Both my friends daughter, and her trainer rode her on the flat and over small x's 4 times before the PPE. They even rode her about a hour before the PPE and everything seemed fine, mare showed no lameness, and rider and horse got along very well.

During the PPE the mare showed minor reaction to hoof testers in both front feet, and she showed various degrees and consistencies of lameness in the right front while lunging and jogging on both hard and soft surfaces. Ultimately, the vet ruled a 2+ lameness on right front. To get some insight into cause of this lameness the buyer went ahead and had the right front heels blocked after which the vet determined there was a 75% improvement in the lameness, but we all agreed the lameness was not completely gone with just the heel block.

So here is the question, IF this is just a minor injury/irritation that will respond to a short rest or short term (less than a month) treatment, the buyer might still be interested in buying this mare. BUT, how would you proceed in this situation when there is such a major unknown????

[kellyb]

BUT, how would you proceed in this situation when there is such a major unknown????

I wouldn't, honestly. Too many holes in that story for me (the questionable lameness, injecting stifles, why this 'impressive' mare has inconsistent training, the cheap price). And she was even lame at the PPE. Pass, pass, pass...it just sounds like a lot of potential heartbreak to me. Add on the fact that this is the first horse for a 13 year old girl, and there's no way I could support my friend's decision to give her time off and reconsider her.

[mvp]

Just a question: Why did y'all block instead of taking radiographs?

[wildswan]

Just a question: Why did y'all block instead of taking radiographs?

If there had been no lameness, we would have proceeded to standard(?) PPE radiographs. However, since there was lameness, the blocking was primarily a diagnostic tool to determine whether the lameness was due to something in the heel area, or if it was something further up the foot/leg. I guess the buyer could have the foot radiographed to see what that shows???

[By George!]

Here's a quote from one of my fave vets: "I know I can break 'em, so I'd rather they be sound when I buy 'em."

He's not wrong about that. To be honest, as soon as the mare showed lameness jogging and on the lunge, I'd have cut my losses. At this point, the horse's lameness is its owner's problem, not your friend's or her young daughter's. Let it stay that way. It'll save a ton of future vet bills and heartache for the kid.

[mroades]

lease it for 6 months, then if it has stayed sound do a full PPE and make an offer, or if there is an issue but its still sound, lease it some more

[mvp]

Wait a sec. I assumed the vet had done a flexion test, not just trotted. '

FWIW, I would have trotted on a straight line toward, away from and by the vet. Then on circles in hard and deep footing as you did. Then flexion tests which in front, fortunately, lets you more or less isolate everything but the pastern/coffin section. I assumed the horse had failed this part.

In any case, hocks and feet are standard things to x-ray for most people. Other than that, depending on what you want to spend and find in the clinical part, you x-ray a joint that has given you reason to.

In this case, with the uncertain heel block, if you like the mare, definitely get the feet x-rayed. But also ask the owner point blank about whether all that time off had physical causes or not. There are, as others have pointed out, many holes in this mare's history. If the owner can't or won't fill them in (the latter being worse), absolutely walk.

[buschkn]

Definitely sounds like an epic heartbreak for the kid just waiting to happen. Run don't walk. Mare is 2+ lame at PPE with only jumping some x's. NO NO NO. Major bummer, but keep looking. Lots of nice horses to look at right now and a good prices due to the economy. Good luck to your friend!

[buschkn]

PS: IF it is actually a really minor thing that just needs a month of rest, let the SELLER rehav the horse to sound and spend the money on diagnostics. If she is sound later and they still haven't found a horse, they can revisit it. No way should they buy a lame horse. I wouldn't take the horse if she were free to be a first show horse for an excited teen. That is just too much money, time, and disappointment.

[dags]

Just a question: Why did y'all block instead of taking radiographs?

To figure out where to take the radiographs - navicular, pasterns, shoulder. It can get quite expensive trying to chase down a lameness through xrays.

For the OPs case, I had a similar PPE start, but it was on a $12,500 or 15K qh for a very timid and unconfident beginner who had recently had a bad horse ownership experience and prior to that had The Evil Pony. She needed a saint, which this horse was. After the 2+ rating (which would usually end things for me) I called and told the Seller that at this point the price would need to go down. If they agreed we would proceed in trying to diagnose the issue in order to determine probable outcome, for either our benefit or ultimately theirs. They agreed. We blocked then xrayed and did the whole shebang, PPE cost a fortune but we determined it was something we were willing to give a shot. Deducted PPE and them some more off price tag and believe got the horse in the 7.5/8K range. He was the perfect partner for this girl and fully restored her confidence, and she eventually got back on The Evil Pony and turned him into a fun eventing partner with a respect for dressage. Happy endings all around.

But in this case I'm not sure I'd feel so comfortable. Horse sounds pretty greenish for a young rider, the price would have to be pretty good for me to consider. Frankly without some documented consistency in work (ie: show record - my example above had plenty of miles on record to prove ability to stay sound) I'd probably walk away.

[wildswan]

Wait a sec. I assumed the vet had done a flexion test, not just trotted. '

FWIW, I would have trotted on a straight line toward, away from and by the vet. Then on circles in hard and deep footing as you did. Then flexion tests which in front, fortunately, lets you more or less isolate everything but the pastern/coffin section. I assumed the horse had failed this part.

Yes, he did all of the above, including flexion. The mare did not fail the flexion.


In this case, with the uncertain heel block, if you like the mare, definitely get the feet x-rayed.

The question in my mind would be, what if the xrays come back clean. That doesn't rule out a soft tissue problem. This mare is known to have previously injured a lateral collateral ligament in the right front. Is this another soft tissue injury?

But also ask the owner point blank about whether all that time off had physical causes or not. There are, as others have pointed out, many holes in this mare's history. If the owner can't or won't fill them in (the latter being worse), absolutely walk.
I'll definitely suggest that.

[CBoylen]

She was started as a 3 yo and has a limited, but very impressive show record. According to seller she has had inconsistent training; i.e., in training for a few months, shown, then out to pasture for long period. Brought back to work for few months, shown, out to pasture again, etc.
Red lights all over this one. No one turns out a horse that is winning. They show it or they sell it. A horse with an impressive show record isn't "considerably underpriced", as you say, for no good reason. I'd be more worried that the hole you found in the prepurchase isn't the biggest or the only one.

[virtus02]

an 8 yr. old horse with no history of consistent work but with this many mysterious issues, I would pass. The daughter may love this horse but I am sure that she will love the next horse she tries just as much if not more, trust me, I have been this little girl. I have also done the risky purchase and seen others do it. The heartbreak the girl will experience by walking away from this horse now is nothing compared to the heartbreak she would experience if she ended up with this horse and couldn't ride it due to lameness issues.

[Couture TB]

We just got a mare as a broodmare that had injured herself in the same spot front lateral collateral ligament. Her owner gave her 4 years of rehab and she was never consitent in her soundness. Which is why she was sold as a broodmare. There are times in the field when she is sound, then all of a sudden goes a bit lame. Honestly I would pass.

[HARROLDhasmyheart]

I'd honestly say keep looking...chances are there are ones out there just as good, and with no lameness issues. If it's only 8 and already has minor issues, there is nothing to say that they won't be exacerbated by time and become worse (conversely, I suppose they hypothetically could get better). :(

[coriander]

Walk on by. Many too many red flags. This is not worth the effort when there are sound horses with records out there.

[By George!]

The horse is currently lame. Your friend and friend's daughter have no need or desire to own a lame horse, regardless of anything else.

Pass on this one and spend the time (and money) looking for a suitable, sound horse.

[Lucassb]

Personally, I'd pass. My rule when buying is to write a check ONLY if I can happily live with the horse as it is on the day I buy it - with whatever training it has and whatever soundness it demonstrates. Maybe I'll be able to make it better with training/care/maintenance... but that's not certain, so I want to like it well enough to buy it just the way it is.

There is a reason the horse is underpriced, and frankly I'd say that reason is likely to be that it simply wouldn't stay sound in work despite its talent (which is why the owners have hung in there for so long.)

If they really LOVE the horse and haven't been able to find *anything* else as suitable... you could give it a month, and then re-evaluate it, taking into account whatever program it is in for that 30 day period. Or, as mroades suggested, do a lease and see if it will hold up.

[JET11]

The collateral ligament was enough for me. The horse hasn't done enough since that injury and it is lame again or still lame. Maybe if it was two years ago and the horse had been showing for the last year and a half. But it sounds like the horse has barely done anything and it is still lame. That isn't a minor injury. Keep looking.

[Parrotnutz]

If there had been no lameness, we would have proceeded to standard(?) PPE radiographs. However, since there was lameness, the blocking was primarily a diagnostic tool to determine whether the lameness was due to something in the heel area, or if it was something further up the foot/leg. I guess the buyer could have the foot radiographed to see what that shows???


I would not bother....all you will be doing is paying for diagnostics on someone else's horse. Lame is lame....it is up to the owner to figure out why, IMHO. And radiographs won't mean anything if it's still the ligament....which it well could be.
Tell her to keep looking, please.

[LovesHorses]

I'm from Sacramento. Rode, showed and worked for trainers there for many years. There are tons of great SAHJA level horses for sale in the area. I would pass. I also think that this is why your friend is paying their trainer...for her professional opinion that has the clients best interests in mind. Otherwise, they need a new one.

[Lord Helpus]

Personally, I'd pass. My rule when buying is to write a check ONLY if I can happily live with the horse as it is on the day I buy it - with whatever training it has and whatever soundness it demonstrates. Maybe I'll be able to make it better with training/care/maintenance... but that's not certain, so I want to like it well enough to buy it just the way it is.

There is a reason the horse is underpriced, and frankly I'd say that reason is likely to be that it simply wouldn't stay sound in work despite its talent (which is why the owners have hung in there for so long.)

If they really LOVE the horse and haven't been able to find *anything* else as suitable... you could give it a month, and then re-evaluate it, taking into account whatever program it is in for that 30 day period. Or, as mroades suggested, do a lease and see if it will hold up.

What She Said.:winkgrin:

The saddest thing about buying a lame horse is that you then own a horse which:
1. Cannot be ridden
2. Cannot be sold
3. Still eats and needs shoes and the vet (cha-CHING!)
4. So there is no money left to buy, or even lease or show someone else's horse.

I guess, in this case, if she is a genetic goldmine, even if she isn't a riding goldmine, she could be given away as a broodmare to get out from under the monthly expenses. That is something, at least. :rolleyes:

Not as good as actually having a sound horse to ride, though, but something....

[Peggy]

Pass. I own one that I spent a year rehabbing fairly expensively from a collateral ligament injury. Mine is back in full work but we're still pretty careful with him--no lunging, no (don flame suit) turnouts, carefully planned jumping, back off and call the vet if there's anything even vaguely off on any leg... While I love this horse it's not a problem that I would buy.

Even if you hadn't been told about the collateral ligaments (and bless the sellers for being honest) the fact that this mare has had periods of rest is, as others have said, a rather large and enthusiastically-flapping red flag.

[wildswan]

Thanks to all those who have responded. I've passed these comments on to my friend for her consideration. These things are never easy.

[Pally]

Mare has a tendency to stand camped under so it can appear that she is calf kneed, but when stood up properly you see that this is not the case.

Standing like that when it's not their conformation, can be a sign of pain. Especially suspicious here since she blocked out on the heel.

Just adding that additional little red flag on to a big ole ditto on what everyone else said :)

[tBHj]

I'd pass.

It's threads like this that make me feel good about buying a 3 year old that I've known since before she was 1. I didn't even do a vet check.

[Midge]

Walk away.

[donkeyman]

RUN- I would think by the time you wrote out your question you would have answered it for yourself. There are way to many issues, no show record, and a collateral ligament is no small issue. If this was for an adult that could afford to take a risk and lose money then so be it....everyone likes a gamble but for what your describing the vet should not even have been called when you learned about no show record and ligament issues......don't spend another dime

[findeight]

She was started as a 3 yo and has a limited, but very impressive show record. According to seller she has had inconsistent training; i.e., in training for a few months, shown, then out to pasture for long period. Brought back to work for few months, shown, out to pasture again, etc.

...back in training for a few months before my friend went to look at her last week.

During the PPE the mare showed minor reaction to hoof testers in both front feet, and she showed various degrees and consistencies of lameness in the right front while lunging and jogging on both hard and soft surfaces. Ultimately, the vet ruled a 2+ lameness on right front.

So here is the question, IF this is just a minor injury/irritation that will respond to a short rest or short term (less than a month) treatment, the buyer might still be interested in buying this mare. BUT, how would you proceed in this situation when there is such a major unknown????


Easy my friend, I'd walk away. This horse is LAME and has been, on and off, for years.

Here are some real world translations for what friend is being told.

Limited but very impressive show record = it keeps having to stop showing. Because it's lame.

Inconsistent training = because it keeps going lame.

Out to train then back to the pasture repeatedly = because it keeps breaking.

Top blood lines, show record but waaaaay underpriced = lame.

Sorry, a 2+ lame on a PPE should stop it there. That is NOT a minor issue and the fact she low blocked 75% improved (but still lame) and is sore in the other front foot? And she stands "funny"? That is trouble.

Offhand, these owners put alot of money into trying to get this one sound and showing, but failed because it is lame.

Tell your friend if she wants to get a Hunter for DD to jump around 2'9" with, a 2+ lame on a PPE is not the proper direction.

[Ozone]

I would pass on this horse...

[findeight]

Thanks to all those who have responded. I've passed these comments on to my friend for her consideration. These things are never easy.

Ummm, this one is easy-this horse has a very real problem that is known but, for some reason, owners are still trying to present her as a suitable horse for a child to show at 2'9".

Tell friend she will break her DDs heart if she buys this one as DDs first show ring Hunter.

Had a thought...since friend is buying as a 2'9" horse, tell her NOT to buy it until she sees it navigate a 2'9" course with oxers. Of course it cannot with a 2+ lame...if she wants to wait until it does and THEN offer to buy, that I could take.
Right now, she has no idea DD can even jump it around anything that is actually off the ground and requires an actual jump.

Just tell her she should never buy one as a Hunter or a Jumper for her child unless she sees it actually jumping. That would take this one out without any argument.

Anybody else seeing a problem with the seller maketing this one knowing what this friend wants it for? I sure do. And I don't like what I hear on this one. Shame on them.

[Madison]

Run, don't walk from this one. This screams potential for lifetime of vicious cycle of NQR lameness, particularly if this type of foot soreness is showing up after so little work. As someone who retired her horse-of-a-lifetime hunter due to a ligament injury and soft tissue inflammation around the ligament, I can tell you it is heartbreaking and they will lose a lot of time and money to trying to figure out whether this is one that can come back, or is one of the ones that can't. Mine can't, and thankfully I'm able to give her a very nice retirement life and enjoy visiting her and trail riding her, but I can tell you it makes her a very expensive pet! Radiographs will not tell them enough about these problems IMO, and if I'm having to think about getting into MRI's or bone scans on a PPE, there is no way I would want to buy that kind of risk. If they really think this is the only one for them, I would ONLY consider a lease, and with very favorable terms re: vet bills and right to terminate, which would probably make the deal more one-sided than the owner would want. Too many red flags on this one.