Pony Attitude?

[dressageinvt]

I have recently purchased a Welsh Cob Section D mare for my dressage mount who I love dearly. The first few months I had her, she was the energizer bunny. Since late summer, she is very lethargic. I have had the vet out and it was determined she is anemic. Is this common in Welsh Cobs? She has been on Red Cell for two weeks now (which isn't that long) but she is still such a poke. Has anyone else had this experience? I have tested her for Lyme's Disease, tested her thyroid and had chiropractic work done on her. My other thought is allergies- she coughs a few times when we first start our ride but that is it. NO discharge or difficulty breathing. She has a very pleasant disposition and has been very willing until now. Is this pony attitude? I thought maybe she was having a growth spurt but it has been going on for almost two months. The saddle fits well and there is no obvious pain. Any insights would be appreciated. Dressageinvt

[mbm]

if is she is anemic give her a chance to grown some red blood cells - ask your vet how long it will take for her to feel better.....

[exvet]

I have several welsh cobs and have had several more over the years and not a single one of them has been or is anemic. I also don't think what you are describing is pony attitude at all. I have a wide range of personalities among my herd though from very forward thinking and on the go all the time to the more laidback, nothing phases me types though they still move out especially on the trail. Stamina is something welsh cobs are known for at least mine are ;)

[goeslikestink]

not common amoungst welshes , but you dont say how old she and what you do and what you feeding her, if shes in or out and how much work shes getting if for exsample she not being worked enough and left out then like any horse its snakes and ladders they eat they get fat they get lazy

[BaroquePony]

The real question here is why did she become anemic? What is the underlying cause?

If your pony was like the energizer bunny for two months before she began to feel lethargic (summer heat aside), then I would be trying to figure out why.

What kind of diet was she on before you got her? And what has she been getting since you have had her?

I bought a Welsh Cob Section D late last year and it has taken me almost a year to get to the bottom of some of his physical issues ...

Being a pony, he tends to put weight on very quickly. I think his previous owners used to put him on a diet all of the time and he actually had not been getting proper nutriton (at least a few years). This made him grumpy. He was "zippy" because he was high strung, but he tired out very quickly. I never had his blood checked, but I knew he couldn't have been getting the proper nutrtion based on some of what I knew about his past. Everyone just kept putting him on a hay diet ... while the hay was nice, it was not gving him a balanced diet of any kind. He was lacking in some essential vitamins, minerals and protiens.

After experimenting with various ration balancers and low-fat, low-carb feeds that didn't seem to be working as well as I would have liked, I finally have found something that works well for him, Pennfield's 'Cool N Lite' ... along with Timothy hay.

The ration balancers did not seem to work very well for him. They seemed to make him grumpier and hotter. Yuck. The Cool 'N' Lite' has him calmed down and behaving very consistently.

I would try to find out why your mare is anemic.

[Thomas_1]

I've had a couple that have been anaemic but don't jump to the conclusion that this is a breed thing. It isn't. I've had a mass of welsh ponies over the years. So many I couldn't even count them.

My land does tend to run to being copper deficient though and copper is the interdependent mineral which is essential for absorption of iron. So I know precisely why my ones have run to being very slightly low on red blood cell count.

I believe that the product "red cell" might have copper in it as well??? If it doesn't, then get something that does have.

I personally feed black mollases as a supplement which is VERY high in essential minerals.

You probably need to investigate root cause and critically look at horses diet. Is she getting plenty of grass and forage?

Then look at worming programme. She doesn't have such as any worm damage or else the likes of bleeding ulcers does she? (both can cause anaemia)

Welsh section D's tend to be pretty easy going and laid back. (though if you're not up to the job of managing and leading them, then be warned, they can decide to do it for you.)

Whilst they are indeed good solid "work horses" with the ability to go all day, it's not uncommon to get them that prefer to spend their time grazing, dining and lunching out.

Is she generally in good condition? Not overweight?? or underweight??

[exvet]

I sure hope the vet already gave you or offered to do the work up necessary to determine the cause of anemia. Both Baroque Pony and Thomas are providing the most likely suspicions. If it hasn't been done already (and imo should have) your vet should have assessed the parasite burden of your cob - or for some of us a plan to go ahead and deworm with something specific should have been discussed - AND discussed proper nutrition with you to rule it in or out.

What Baroque Pony has run into is something I've seen often over the years in the States. It's amazing to me the number of greyhound like welsh cobs I have seen due to people trying to keep weight off for fear of laminitis in easy keepers or due to heat (hotter climates). I also see lack of muscle and hay bellies with the ongoing attempt to get them to lose more weight - totally wrong. Proper nutrition is not every vet's specialty (yup I said it). I just happen to be married to a vet who worked in nutrition for several years before moving here so it's something (and growing up on a dairy gets one in tune to nutrition too) I've always had an interest in. While it's obvious Thomas knows his stuff, I would encourage you to analyze the nutritional content of what you're feeding including your hay before just picking this or that to supplement with. I've found too many people jumping to conclusions and over supplementing on some things and not supplementing what was truly needed. Oh and if your vet isn't in tune to the proper body condition and appearance of welsh cobs (not talking halter fit types) then you may need to find someone who is. (Yup I'm a vet and I'm going ahead to put that out there too. Just had a friend who had prepurchase exams done on 3 who were to be sold. Vet told potential buyer and seller that all were in grave danger of being foundered soon - NOT). My welsh cobs who are in work carry a lot of muscle. I have had colleagues claim that they were/are fat when in fact after educating them a bit they learn to compromise and we call them a fit fat :winkgrin: There is no way my welsh cobs could compete at the level that they do without having the muscle and condition that they do. To achieve that it takes good quality hay, the appropriate ration balancer, a couple get a small percentage of alfalfa as well (especially my FEI guy) and EXERCISE. I've certainly had those welsh cobs who would prefer to eat but I can't remember a single one of them who has been lazy or dead off the leg.

[goodpony]

I have a connemara pony who is doing something similar and started about the time he began growing a coat this fall he became very quiet (not quite lethargic, but enough of a change for me to take notice). I also thought that he might be having a growth spurt. Interestingly, he has also in the past been very slightly anemic and was given redcell. He is in 'fit-fat' condition like exvet describes and receives a ration balancer and mixed grass hay. He is up to date on deworming, vacc, and recently been treated for sand-prophylacticly. He is doing a reasonable amount of work, not over the top, but enough that he does need his energy levels addressed. My guy seems to be coming round now that his coat is in full feather but Im going to try some APF on him as well as increasing the variety of work we do--more trails, some small jumps etc. For us his change was more a subtle change in energy level rather than desire to work or move off the leg.

[dressageinvt]

Thanks for all the advice. The source of the anemia is not known. Her worming history is sketchy prior to me purchasing her. Since January, she has been wormed every 8 wks with a three rotation wormer cycle. I just started her on a Panacur Power Pack for 5 days-hoping this will help.
As far as nutrition is concerned, the hay in the northeast is not great this year. We had it tested at the barn and it has a 5% protein level. We have supplemented a scoop of alfalfa cubes each AM and forage extender in the evening. The pony is on Red Cell, Farriers Formula, and Probios. She is in moderate work-4 to 5 days a week for 40 min or so. I am due to have her blood tested again in two weeks. My other question is could this be the start of allergies? She coughs a few times at the beginning of each ride but that is it. NO discharge, runny eyes, etc. She lived in a run in shed for the first 3 yrs of her life and is now in a barn. She is worked either in an indoor or outdoor ring and the fields. I do think everyone is right in that I have to find the source of the anemia.

[exvet]

The coughing could be a symptom of allergies though the other thing I see very often and have one horse (just so happens it's one of my welsh cobs too) who does the same thing. Each time I ride and warm up and start to trot we get a few of those old man type of coughs. I see this most often associated with horses that went through a bout of upper respiratory infection, (usually rhino) and got over it but will have that lingering issue. Rhino specifically will damage the cilia (fine hairs) that line the upper respiratory tract and many times the damage is permanent. The cilia is what helps filter out a lot of the crap and garbage in the air as it passes through the airways so they end up with this cough that is always brief and literally is to clear out the "throat" when they start doing something that demands greater airflow/exchange. This isn't specific to just rhino but I happen to know that is what blew through my barn a while back despite vaccinations and quarantine precautions. Again I would have your vet address this.

[Thomas_1]

Thanks for all the advice. The source of the anemia is not known. Her worming history is sketchy prior to me purchasing her. Since January, she has been wormed every 8 wks with a three rotation wormer cycle. I just started her on a Panacur Power Pack for 5 days-hoping this will help. You're worming wayyyyy too frequently.

You'd be better off getting a faecal sample to check for egg count and worming with an effective dose every 3 months and then for tapeworm twice a year (Autumn and spring). So now for tapeworm.

As far as nutrition is concerned, the hay in the northeast is not great this year. We had it tested at the barn and it has a 5% protein level. That's lower than barley straw!! My barley straw comes in at 8%Are you sure you're right? I don't know if you're having a full test and including for minerals but you need to be looking for something with about 5 - 7 mg/kg of copper. Crude protein in hay is normally 9 to 16%.

She is in moderate work-4 to 5 days a week for 40 min or so. That's extraordinarily light work - not moderate at all!

My other question is could this be the start of allergies? I doubt it.

She coughs a few times at the beginning of each ride but that is it.NO discharge, runny eyes, etc. But I'm wondering what on earth you've got for hay?? Is it rubbish dry matter?? If so and she's stabled then that won't help and she's probably glad to get out of the dust and that will be why she's coughing.
She lived in a run in shed for the first 3 yrs of her life and is now in a barn.
Welsh ponies don't do well living in. How much turn out is she getting? Do you have grass? That will help with her iron intake and I'd say get your hay changed. If it really is just 5% crude protein then I'm thinking no way is it grass hay and it's going to be short in essential minerals.

[goeslikestink]

Thanks for all the advice. The source of the anemia is not known. Her worming history is sketchy prior to me purchasing her. Since January, she has been wormed every 8 wks with a three rotation wormer cycle. I just started her on a Panacur Power Pack for 5 days-hoping this will help.

get a pooh count done
and worm to a wroming programme seasons of the year by cycles of the worm



As far as nutrition is concerned, the hay in the northeast is not great this year. We had it tested at the barn and it has a 5% protein level. We have supplemented a scoop of alfalfa cubes each AM and forage extender in the evening. The pony is on Red Cell, Farriers Formula, and Probios. She is in moderate work-4 to 5 days a week for 40 min or so. I am due to have her blood tested again in two weeks.

it what we call here leisure riding - how old is the horse in question


My other question is could this be the start of allergies? She coughs a few times at the beginning of each ride but that is it. NO discharge, runny eyes, etc.

worms can cause coughing- if over wormed the horses get imune to the wormers and can build up a resistence to them



She lived in a run in shed for the first 3 yrs of her life and is now in a barn. She is worked either in an indoor or outdoor ring and the fields. I do think everyone is right in that I have to find the source of the anemia.

how much turnout does she get- welsh ponies and cobs are native breed and like to live out as much as possible

if in it could be her stable enviroment as in dusty envrioment also the hay if low quality can also make a horse cough as its too dusty

[jcotton]

I would get a full panel of blood work done, fecal test, and find a better quality of hay even if you have stash it away in your horse trailer if you board.

I have a 6 yr old cob. an easy keeper so he gets dry lotted for 10-12 hours a day otherwise he would look like 10-11 months preg. But he has plenty of energy for 40-60 minutes of work and appreciates the solitude time away from his 18 month old friend that he babysits. For his diet, he eats grass and pony rations of grain.

[tempichange]

I own a welsh cob in a similar situation. She peeters out, becomes lack luster at shows. I found that with the yearly Panacur rotation and a diet switch, she's been working out better.

[Tamara in TN]

As far as nutrition is concerned, the hay in the northeast is not great this year. We had it tested at the barn and it has a 5% protein level. We have supplemented a scoop of alfalfa cubes each AM and forage extender in the evening. The pony is on Red Cell, Farriers Formula, and Probios. .


ok as far as the hay is concerned recycled bales of cardboard are 4% CP

if you removed the cardboard hay from your equation, you are in truth expecting her to survive on a scoop of cubes and some supplements...and that is all

how did your vet miss that ??

if all hay sucks all around you, you need to find alfalfa pellets and feed them...as much as 10 pounds a day in three feedings maybe more...

your hay is starving your horse to death....

[BaroquePony]

I rely on the same hay region in the US as the OP, I believe. The hay this year in the NorthEast seems to have gotten caught with a bad weather pattern for good hay. Although I haven't gotten an analysis (my vet laughed it off .... hhhmmm ...), I have had a heads up that it stinks. As long as it has no mold, I am feeding it. I don't count on it for much more than roughage and to alleviate boredom. I am feeding alfalfa and Cool 'N' Lite along with it to give the ponies some real food.

ETA: and, yes, you can actually be starving your horse even though they have all the hay they can eat.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=dressageinvt;4444883]Thanks for all the advice. The source of the anemia is not known. Her worming history is sketchy prior to me purchasing her.

as small as the Cob world is here in the States, I am sure you can get some info on her if you asked;)

best

[goeslikestink]

if the hay is rubbish and in bad situation of not getting none or hardly any then move over to spring barley straw or barley straw add liquid mallasses and then also add a scoop ful of pony nuts twive daily that will be a 2lb in weight scoopful

barley or spring barley you can feed to the horses it wont harm them or mix it with the hay
ihave done this serveral times before when hays short its an alturnative option and works well

[dressageinvt]

Thanks for all the info. I have called our local equine nutritionist at the feed store to come access her. I will have the vet out at the same time for his opinion. I want what is best for this pony- she is my dancing partner for the next twenty years (I hope!). It seems like all fingers point to nutrition. Thanks for all your help.

[BaroquePony]

pony nuts

Dare I ask?

Cool 'N' Lite has rolled steamed barley as the main grain .... hhhhmmmmm, pony loves it :yes:

[Tamara in TN]

scoopfull of pony nuts l

I like mine deep fried with turnip greens and cornbread:)

best