Greenie Training Issues and a Question (small novel length)

[piccolopony]

Hi guys,
So this is my first topic on this BB. I have a had a few bad days with my greenie and I'm looking for some opinions. I will give you just a really brief background on me.

I have been riding horses since I was seven and we've owned horses since I was twelve. I've had very few really serious riding lessons but in those I've had the instructor's have been quite impressed with my position, hands etc. so I'm really a very fair rider at least and what I lack in lessons I make up for in being able to stick on just about anything. I used to jump but now have a passion for Dressage.

Fast forward to about a year ago, after being horseless for about a year (but still riding my sister's horse occasionally) I went out and bought my dream horse. The first horse I've actually had that I've bonded with and really care for, and who cares for me at all :D

Sora, the horse, is a 3 1/2 year old, 14.3 Arabian filly. She is a really great Dressage prospect, WONDERFUL, Drool worthy walk, great trot, well balanced canter with a fair amount of jump etc. She's also my heart horse and my princess which does make working on some things harder although I've never failed to correct her if I need to. She is also really SANE compared to most other Arabians IV'E been around. I bought her specifically as a training project and I have the experience to make that work. i.e. I've trained three ponies from the ground up (stubborn, smart little buggers :P), one Missouri Fox Trotter as a trail horse, and I've polished up three other horses. I have NO problem sticking on something but the horse I used to have fell down a lot and that is still scaring me a little.

Anyway, recently I've had a few bad days with Sora. Part of it is that I just don't have time to consistently work her, part of it is that we don't have any good places to ride, everything is outside a fence, and can be really slippery especially with the recent rains and that is what scares me the most with my previous horse's history. Today, even after consistent work, and reinforcing good habits religiously she kicked out at me on the long lines, spun and took off (yeah, I know, I'm already beating myself up about it) and just resisted in general the entire time. It was warm and not windy and there was nothing that should have made her act badly. I wouldn't mind too much if this were an isolated incident but it seems like lately we've been having more bad days than good.

I have two questions really.
The first is, should I just let her go for the rest of the winter. I'm not going to be able to work her much soon when the weather gets colder anyway, and then just start up again in the spring when the weather is better? I will be moving her to a boarding facility either this summer or the next and I'll be much better in an arena I think :-)
Or, should I start to think about sending my baby off to a trainer? I won't be able to afford the type of Dressage trainer I really want this year but I might this coming summer. Right now I have access to a young pony clubber (17-18) that trains horses really well and mostly just puts a nice solid foundation on them and I might be able to afford her.

I'm looking for opinions both ways and I'm wondering if any of you have had to make this decision. I'm not absolutely attached to the idea of training her completely from the ground up and I know some of my friends that have sent horses off for training have actually had a stronger bond with them because they aren't the ones dealing with the training. However, it was the reason I bought her and I do like the idea of doing everything myself.

[slc2]

she kicked out at me on the long lines, spun and took off (yeah, I know, I'm already beating myself up about it) and just resisted in general the entire time.

--This is going to sound harsh but I have to say, I just had a friend of mine get kicked in the face and arm and break her cheek and elbow, and I am on a mission. I am very distressed by what happened to her and I would like it to not happen to you.

--And oh yes. This was her 'heart horse' too.

--The only trouble, she wasn't treating it like a horse.

--Why do young horses do this? Because they can. Because no one is stopping them from doing this. Some of it can be high spirits, of course. And horses like to play. Because it is happening and the horse is being disobedient ('resistant'? not sure what that means), you could get kicked. Ground driving, long lines, this stuff is potentially very dangerous. You need to be able to control your horse, and a lot of that is how you position yourself, how you get a reaction to your whip, and how you reinforce your signals to the horse. If you are having problems consistently, you need someone to show you how to long line your horse properly.

--Personally? I think unless the horse gets worked in a consistent program, he's going to be frisky. Spinning around on the longe line and the like, being naughty, is very often for many horses, just a matter of not being worked, being worked HARD, and being worked often. They are just bored, full of pent up energy, and not being required to listen to someone and be obedient every day. Quite a few people don't work their horses 5 or 6 times a week, consistently. The horses get full of grain, treats, sugary grass and high calorie hay, and they get frisky and naughty. Like children full of candy and red dye number 1.

It was warm and not windy and there was nothing that should have made her act badly.

--Sounds like you need to be able to read your horse better - try keeping a diary of when you work your horse and her behavior. I bet you will see a connection.

I wouldn't mind too much if this were an isolated incident but it seems like lately we've been having more bad days than good.

--Get help. Get instruction. Work with a trainer who can help you, before you get hurt.

I have two questions really.
The first is, should I just let her go for the rest of the winter. I'm not going to be able to work her much soon when the weather gets colder anyway, and then just start up again in the spring when the weather is better? I will be moving her to a boarding facility either this summer or the next and I'll be much better in an arena I think :-)

--Consider taking her to a boarding barn now, and working with a trainer in the winter. If the weather in your area isn't in the single digits during most of the winter, you can get a lot done during that time. The longer horses are left untrained, the harder it is to train them.

--Alternatively, determine to work the horse frequently, and have an instructor come to your house, watch just how yo uwork with the horse, and listen to what she tells you to do differently. And change what you do.

--One can oftenn work the horse at home, even in winter. If one can work the horse on both Saturday and Sunday, that only leaves two other week days to manage. A higher, dry spot can be used for longeing the horse. Horses can even learn to tolerate working in the dark in winter. It's amazing what one can accomplish in ten or twenty minutes of regular work.

Or, should I start to think about sending my baby off to a trainer? I won't be able to afford the type of Dressage trainer I really want this year but I might this coming summer. Right now I have access to a young pony clubber (17-18) that trains horses really well and mostly just puts a nice solid foundation on them and I might be able to afford her.

--The problem is that you don't learn anything if you send the horse away. But it can help some, and as long as the youngster will actually have a place where s/he can ride in the winter, it might work...but frankly, I never recommend anyone 'send the horse away' - supervise the training, watch it done 2-3 times a week, and do ride the horse while learning what the trainer is teaching the horse and learning how to do it yourself.

--Make sure it's being done and make sure the horse feed, shoeing and exercise is appropriate.

I'm looking for opinions both ways and I'm wondering if any of you have had to make this decision. I'm not absolutely attached to the idea of training her completely from the ground up and I know some of my friends that have sent horses off for training have actually had a stronger bond with them because they aren't the ones dealing with the training. However, it was the reason I bought her and I do like the idea of doing everything myself.

--I think 'having a strong bond because they aren't the one doing the training' is a very, very strange way to look at the process of training a horse. I don't understand it at all, and it scares me because it does not sound like a healthy view of training or the relationship with the horse. It sounds like anthropomorphosizing.

--A rider having trouble with his horse, needs help. He needs someone with more expereince to help him. He needs someone showing him a new and different way to do things, because what he's doing isn't working. Unsafe things are happening. If he sends the horse away to be trained, it's likely he won't change how he deals with the horse, and the problems will lcontinue. Training isn't like a computer program. The owner has to do things the way the trainer does them, otherwise the horse will come back home and start doing the same problematic things again.

--And most likely, he also needs to change how he views his horse...like sending the horse away and being more 'bonded' because he's 'not involved in the training'. That just really scares me. Sounds like a very unsafe idea.

[EiRide]

I would say, if you don't have safe and good facilities in order to properly train her, try to get one nice work with whatever you think will give you the best success to end on a positive note, and then quit until she is somewhere with good facilities.

[piccolopony]

Thanks guys for the responses,
First, slc 2: Thank you so much for your concern, however I DO have horse experience and I am perfectly capable of not getting hurt. Getting kicked out at on the lunge is nothing compared to what the ponies tried to pull on me and they turned out to be really good, safe citizens and none of us got hurt. I have been working with horses for more than ten years so I have experience on how to handle myself and was far out of range as usual.

Taking her to a boarding barn certainly isn't an option right now. I'm going to Grad School and living on loans. I have plenty of money to take care of her, emergency money etc., but I really can't afford to board anywhere right now.
I ABSOLUTELY agree that it is important to work with a trainer and I would most likely be out to see/ride her every day or at least most days. I really want to improve myself as well as her so if I implied that I would be "sending her away" that was completely my fault and my mistake.

I really appreciate your opinions and see what you mean about what my friend said about boarding. I know that I will have to be able to continue to train/maintain her for as long as I'm riding her. Mostly I just feel like I'm stuck somehow and am trying to decide if I'm capable of getting unstuck or not.

[ASBJumper]

Personally, I need more details to offer some advice... besides kicking out at you, what other stuff has she started doing? Have you backed her yet, or are all of these new "problems" happening on the ground? When you long-line her, are you attaching the long lines to the bit?

I started running into problems with my greenie (3.5 yrs old as well) about 2 months in. She went from being happy, comfortable, supple, soft in the mouth and balanced to being rushy, tense, flipping her head and leaning/pulling on my hands... so I did 4 things:

- I had the vet out to check her teeth (she had multiple sharp points, including one hook that had grown out crooked and was digging into her cheek :( ). I made the appt even though she had already had her teeth done 3 months prior.
- I had the chiro out
- I had the massage therapist out (left side lumbar area was very tight and sore, as well her right shoulder)
- I eased up on the riding, and went from riding 3-4 times a week to twice a week

I now have my happy, soft, supple, relaxed horse back. My last few rides have been fantastic. I will gradually increase her workload back up again in the next few weeks, paying close attention to her comfort level.

So, it might be baby antics, it might be something you're doing or not doing, BUT - it may also be physical. She may be sore or frazzled and you might need to back off / have her checked...

Good luck! :)

[piccolopony]

Thanks ASBJumper,
That is a really good point. She did have her teeth done in the spring but I was about to get the vet out to check her out again this fall and get her shots again. Today the lines were just attached to her halter.

She is getting ridden about 1-3 times per week and that is where the problems mostly happen. I just got a new saddle because the other wasn't a good fit and it's been checked out and fits her. She isn't displaying any signs of pain, head down, relaxed walking through (when she's not nervous :P) and nice and flexible. I would love to have a chiro out but we are in the middle of nowhere and I can't find anyone that's willing to come all the way out here. I've been riding since late June but very infrequently. I think what's really getting to me is that she was PERFECT when I first started riding her. I mean REALLY perfect, as in she turned off my legs, didn't freak out at things that would scare any of my other horses, was going on nice trail rides through a small local town that is pretty scary with minimal small shies etc. That is the way she usually is/was and I just don't know what to think of this new horse :P

By the way, the kicking out was really a one time thing. She got in trouble for it just like in the past (when she tried it once or twice before) and I don't see it happening again soon, she knew as soon as she did it that she was in trouble :X. I mostly just brought it up because it disturbs me that she would try as it's not her usual misbehavior, which is usually because she's nervous, and was really more aggressive than I thought she was :P

[JackSprats Mom]

What are you feeding her? I would cut right back on everything if you can (assuming you can keep weight on her).

I have an Arab who went through some huge behavioral issues (of which there were a couple different causes) but I saw an immediate change in attitude when I cut out all alfalfa and grain (he is now on grass/beet/oil- he is in work 5-6 days a week and maintains weight on this).

Young horses can go through good and bad periods, but check some basic stuff first.

[piccolopony]

Another good thought.
She's actually just on a little grassy hay (with a few stalks of alfalfa mixed in), and about 4 pounds of Safe Choice a day. This did just start happening though, because of the cold weather and lack of grass, and although I don't think Safe Choice would change her attitude, I also didn't think a three-year-old would get fat on a little more grass hay and six pounds of safe Choice but she was :D

[angel]

Arabians have more energy that many breeds of horses. They are known for their stamina. I suggest that you lunge your girl for about 20 minutes to 30 minutes before you do anything else. Do most of your work in trot, and change directions every five minutes. Don't forget the splint boots.

Now, after you have done the lunge work, preferably with surcingle and sidereins adjusted correctly, then take the sidereins off and try some longlining. Maybe work another 10 to 15 minutes with "training" type work. Training type work can be either the longlining, or it can be the initial saddle work. After this time, stop for the day. Training should not go on and on and on because you have some idea you have not worked the horse long enough. But, the prep work before the training session needs to be done at this stage, if you don't want to be dealing with all that energy being directed against what you are trying to train.

By the way, I have had Arabians for more than 30 years, so I well know the breed.:lol:;)

[mbm]

another thought - mostly when horses are first started they are out of balance with the new weight/balance etc... it takes them a while to figure out how to move with the rider etc.... and once they are a bit more confident with the rider - that is when you might see some shenanigans.

in other words: sounds very normal to me.

wont help you decide what to do but hopefully will ease your mind a bit about why.

[Bogey2]

Even though you have ridden/worked with horses for a long time you can still learn from others. Heck, my trainer still learns from others and she has a lot more experience than you. I think you need to be open to some help from a solid dressage trainer if that is what you want to do. If you can, board at a place where you can ride and get lessons for the winter. It is money well spent.
I am amazed at how much I did not know when I bought my first "baby" to do dressage with....and I too have owned for many years and teach as well.

[slc2]

That four pounds of Safe Choice ain't too safe a choice, LOL.

[egontoast]

Part of it is that I just don't have time to consistently work her, part of it is that we don't have any good places to ride, everything is outside a fence, and can be really slippery

That alone is enough reason to send the horse to a trainer or board where you can train regularly and have instruction. With a young horse, the every day routine is really important and can be a life saver for the rider! I think it is better to do nothing than to do sporadic work over the winter (asking for trouble with a greenie) so I vote for regular training with a good trainer. If you can be involved with that,even better.

[Valentina_32926]

Babies/Youngsters/Greenies (no matter their age) need consistent work around 5 days a week. In fact I try to handle them at least 15 minutes every day. Like children the youngsters have short attention spans - do you should start with short SUCCESSFUL periods of "training" (baths, clipping, learning to lead, lunging, etc.) and gradually increase the amount of time their being asked to be well behaved (i.e. when they're in "school").

If you can't make it there 5 days a week then see if someone who has handled babies can work with your mare in a "training" session when you can't be there - work on something specific then gradually extend it. If it's 1 day a week for this "trainer" (even if they do NOT ride) work with the trainer to devise exercises to use the mare's brain and "strecth" her capability. Hard to describe but learning is building blocks - so start with something simple and work up to more (more time, harder concepts, etc.).

For example groom her and expect her to stand still, expand this to grooming on cross ties, to clipping nost, expand to clipping feet then bridle path then ears (until she's perfect for all), then start with saddle pad following grooming, expand to saddle, expand to walking with saddle then lunging, then lunging with saddle, then walking with bridle, add lunging with bridle, finally bridle and saddle, then add side reins, expand to lunging W/T/C with side reins, etc... you get the picture.

Idea is to get the mare accustomed to being well behaved for more and more extended periods of time. Eventually you'll need a real trainer that can ride her (probably cost more money than ground only trainer) or you'll need to be able to ride her 5 days a week. If you can't have ground trainer lunge her in side reins on the days you can't ride.

She's just a baby and needs the maturity she'll get from consistent work - the sooner the better for both of you.

Good luck - I'm certain once you start her in regular work that 90% of your problems will go away as she just sounds "fresh". But nip it in the bud now or you'll regret it later. :yes:

[Alpha Mare]

piccolo: My experience as an ammy owner is that the young horse really benefits from consistent routine and training.

I put my younger mare in training after feeling I couldn't provide (training wise) what she needed and it has been a very rewarding experience. What I would agree with others is:

* consistent routine is really helpful
* visiting the trainer weekly or more often is important to monitor care/training
* you won't 'lose' your horse to the trainer if you see her regularly and care for her as in grooming, hand walking, hand grazing.
* It can be very rewarding to watch your horse make progress

I was never one to 'share' my horses when I was a kid, but now I find it very enjoyable to see them in the hands of my coach or trainer. And if it is a 'struggle' for you to find the time to work consistently it can be a relief to have her in good hands and a pleasure for you to watch her grow.

Young horses, or just greenies of any age, can change their attitudes when asked to 'work' whether from confusion, tiredness, or just learning the ropes. I second those who said to check her teeth and her back/overall health. But also recognize when you ask more from a horse they may struggle from time to time with what you want.

You are considering a younger rider to handle your horse - I would review the training plans with her even assuming she is a competent rider and trainer to ensure that expectations are reasonable, maybe weekly. It is ok to 'plateau' for a while as the mare learns her job if that happens. You want the mare to feel 'successful' and that means consolidating the learning before going on to the next thing.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is important to have a proper place to work a youngster. Yes, sometimes you can "get away" without one, but when things begin to go badly, you just dig yourself in deeper and deeper.

Youngsters need to develop a routine, and going to a special work place where they learn to focus on the trainer is a large part of success. You have to protect them from learning bad habits, as it is 10 times worse to correct them.

I would not attempt to continue the training you are working on until you can have a proper place to work. Set her up for success, not failure.

You can do other things to increase her attention span, like introducing new things - tires, feed bags, tarps, etc. You can also do basic leading exercises to increase her attention on the trainer. They are more like teaching a dog to heel. (Walk at your shoulder from both sides, fast and slow walk, halt, pivot right and left, lateral work, "stand - stay" - for this they should stay with you when you are facing forward, and stay standing still if you turn and back away.)

I would not try to long line without a bit. For a horse that is being difficult about lunging, I would also make sure to have a lunging caveson, as the control is much more reliable.

Especially with mares, they often get resentful if not worked with at least 5 days per week. Kind of like if your husband ignored you all week, and then decided he now felt like some special time at his convenience. ;)

[piccolopony]

Thanks again for the advise everyone.

First, to those of you talking about putting my mare in training, I really would be VERY open to working with a trainer/coach. The problem is not currently my openness to such an approach but the lack of funds. :cry: This summer it should be an option and no matter what I decide to do now I will be doing some combination of trainer/coach then.

Second, to Fairview Horse Center: That is kind of something I've been feeling I've been unable to provide (a good area to work in) so it's nice to hear that I wasn't just being too sensitive to this. I have done TONS of ground work with her and she really is one of the most polite, well trained horses i've ever been around on the ground. She yeilds lightly to a touch just about anywhere on her body, walks very nicely and lightly right at my side and just about does everything else I want on the ground. At this point I'm having trouble coming up with ground work stuff I haven't done.

I have built her up slowly from her not even letting me get near or catch her to the point where I can easily pick up all of her feet, handle every part of her body, longe line her, drive her, flap saddle pads around her, tie her for fairly long periods of time, move all over on her back etc. etc. :D I am fairly hard to please when it comes to manners and she is FAR better behaved with just about everything on the ground than any other horse I've been around because it's something I really care about. Once again, that's why I'm SOOO suprised that she's doing this now. If I hadn't emphasized all of this so strongly it really wouldn't suprise me but with our past it really does.

Also, she really isn't difficult to longe, she just kicked out at me once (recently), she doesn't pull, she will halt, walk, trot, canter, etc. with a combination of body language and voice commands. If I couldn't control her on the longe with just a halter I would use a caveson or bit. :)

SL2: What did you mean with your comment about Safechoice? Is there something wrong with it that I don't know? It's the only food my GREAT horse vet recommends but I always try to do as much research into food as I can and I've only ever heard good things about it. I would be interested in hearing what you mean.

[Hampton Bay]

Re: Safe Choice, is isn't terribly low in sugars. It's around 22% if I remember correctly. Better than many sweet feeds and pellets, and it was one of the first lower-starch options, but there are now many better choices. If you can get just plain beet pulp or maybe some alfalfa cubes or pellets, and then add a vitamin/mineral (I LOVE the SmartPak ones!), that might be a better option for the air-fern Arabs. I have two, and that is what we do here for them.

I have an Arab at this same age as well. He is a very very good boy, but like any green horse he has had moments of naughtiness. Mainly when he was a yearling, more recently some little bucks when asked to canter. I have found that with him, if he is being naughty, he is confused. So every time he is naughty, I try to find a different way to explain what I am asking, or I just drop the issue and ask something different. Is there a chance your filly is just confused about what you want?

Of course having a good professional work with them is never a bad idea. But I too can appreciate the lack of funds. You can take a lesson or two where you can, or ask someone to put a couple rides here and there on the horse, but that is about all you can do.

Is there any way you can section off a portion of your pasture to make an arena? I used some railroad ties to sorta mark off a dressage arena, and for the most part I work the young Arab in that space. We will use other spaces, but if he gets confused about something we go back to the marked-off arena. It's nothing fancy, just 14 rr ties marking the sides. They can easily wander out of it, but it does seem to help give a boundary.

If you absolutely cannot get help over the winter, then I would just stick with doing the work you have done and that she does WELL until you can get some help. Continue your walking hacks. Working with her in some way 4 or 5 days a week is a good idea, and it doesn't have to take a long time. Even 5 minutes to catch her, brush her, pick her hooves, adjust a blanket, or things like that, will keep the idea of human contact and expected behaviors in their minds. I make an effort to go out and pet and love on mine pretty much every day. Even if I am just touching all over them while they are eating, it's good to remind them that there are certain things they must allow.

Good luck with her. I truly know how much it sucks to have no money to get a bit of help when you need it. Just stay safe, wear your helmet, stick with things she knows, and get some lessons and help when you can.

[piccolopony]

Hampton Bay,

Thank you SOOOO much! I feel so much better after reading that :)

I'll see what I can do about finding some beat pulp. Being out in the middle of nowhere makes it hard to find some of the more "exotic" :D options.

I really suspect that what you said about your gelding is part of the problem with Sora. I went out to work with her today and just took it REALLY slow, as in I went back to the point where I introduced getting up on her back for the first time. She was really good and calm and I think we made some progress.

"Good luck with her. I truly know how much it sucks to have no money to get a bit of help when you need it. Just stay safe, wear your helmet, stick with things she knows, and get some lessons and help when you can."

^thanks so much! It means a lot just to have some support! :)

[slc2]

Even very experienced people occasionally run into a horse that is more challenging that they need ideas on how to handle.

From Katherine Blocksdorf's about.horses.com:

Most of us like to feed our horses. Some people do elaborate mixtures and sprinkle their horses’ feed with all types of supplements, minerals, herbs, probiotics and other preparations. But horses run very efficiently on the food they evolved on—grass.
If your horse is being lightly ridden or has a tendency to gain weight quickly, hay or grass pasture may be all it needs. Good quality hay and grass has all the vitamins, protein, fiber, energy and minerals a horse requires.

If your horse is carrying a foal, nursing a foal, working hard, or has difficulty maintaining good condition you may want to add grain or other concentrates to its hay or grass diet.
----

(what's wrong with safe choice)

Nothing. You're feeding at least twice as much as you need to, that's the problem.

I would not feed a 3 year old ANY grain/concentrate feed. They need to grow slowly, stay slim, and not be carrying on when being trained - it's too easy for them to be injured doing that.

In addition, an amateur working alone at home needs, bottom line, to have a quiet horse. That means feeding for less energy. I would feed a vitamin/mineral supplement and good quality hay. I would not feed a grain, pellet, concentrate, ration balancer or the like to a horse in light, occasional work.

Nutrena's website lists Safe Choice. 14% protein, 7% fat.

If I do the 'help me decide' page, it recommends almost half of their products as 'the right feed' for your horse. They don't recommend the one I'd choose - 'Lite Balance', at 12% protein and 3% fat. Which is recommended for easy keepers. I'd feed it at the 'pony' rate of .2 lb per 100 lb, or 1.4 lbs a day. I'd feed about 1 lb of Safe Choice, but in either case, would feed those products only to a horse in more regular work.

For Safe Choice. The label says to feed 1/4 lb per 100 lb of horse for maintenance. Now, feed labels usually quote a range, and in general, even the minimum on the range is too much. But let's play along. A horse in occasional work would only be fed at a 'maintenance' level or less. The lower end of the range is for easy keepers, like many Arabs.

For a 14.2 Arab that in good condition should weigh 700 or 800 lbs, that would be 2 pounds of Safe Choice or less a day.

I know horses being worked for an hour a day at the Grand Prix level, the hardest work a horse can do, the same size as your horse, getting a handful of feed like Safe Choice a day. A HANDFUL. These horses are worked daily for an HOUR 6 days a week, and are sweated up when they are done.

And they are ridden by international level trainer who thinks it's fun when a horse gets a little wild, LOL.

I would remove the Safe Choice from the diet, and have the horse off it for about a month, and then re-evaluate how things are going. If there are training issues and you need a trainer, you just need a trainer, but matching food to energy requirements helps a lot in many situations.

[piccolopony]

Even very experienced people occasionally run into a horse that is more challenging that they need ideas on how to handle.

Thanks, once again you guys are very encouraging! :D You also just gave me a great idea. I know someone that shows Arabians, trains them for a BIG local breeder and I've been VERY impressed when I see her ride flighty or nervous horses. She is just very calm, relaxed, loose rein etc. Because of her experience I might have her out (we're sort of friends with a mutual friend) and see if she has any ideas etc.

For a 14.2 Arab that in good condition should weigh 700 or 800 lbs, that would be 2 pounds of Safe Choice or less a day. :eek:

And they are ridden by international level trainer who thinks it's fun when a horse gets a little wild, LOL. :lol:

In addition, an amateur working alone at home needs, bottom line, to have a quiet horse. That means feeding for less energy. I would feed a vitamin/mineral supplement and good quality hay. I would not feed a grain, pellet, concentrate, ration balancer or the like to a horse in light, occasional work.


VERY good point. I'll admit I was partly feeding her this because it seemed like any easy way to get the vitamins/minerals that she needed into her without a lot of fuss. That and the vet/Arabian people I've talked to have encouraged 6-10 pounds per day of safe choice or other types of grain. :eek:

I'll look into some vitamins and get her weened off the Safechoice. She got less than a pound yesterday and I already noticed a difference. I had also put her in with a boss mare to get a little education in manners though so I just wasn't sure which thing had done it ;)

[tempichange]

VERY good point. I'll admit I was partly feeding her this because it seemed like any easy way to get the vitamins/minerals that she needed into her without a lot of fuss. That and the vet/Arabian people I've talked to have encouraged 6-10 pounds per day of safe choice or other types of grain. :eek:

I'll look into some vitamins and get her weened off the Safechoice. She got less than a pound yesterday and I already noticed a difference. I had also put her in with a boss mare to get a little education in manners though so I just wasn't sure which thing had done it ;)

Logically, yes she might need the grain, but at the moment it sounds like she just needs the vitamins. There are products out there that look like grain, but in reality are compressed vitamins. I personally feed M-30 (which is vitamins compressed into a pellet) when those who don't need the caloric intake need something at feeding time.

I would also stay away from what breed people say, and just stick with what your vet and trainer say. People are a little funny that way.

[piccolopony]

I would also stay away from what breed people say, and just stick with what your vet and trainer say. People are a little funny that way.

True, unless my vet (who is definitely a horse vet) is one of the people telling me to feed her five pounds of SafeChoice. :eek: It's so hard getting good information on feeding horses. Dog people talk about it all the time (and dogs have more similar nutritional needs) but I've had such a hard time finding out good information from horse people.

Thats why I really appreciate the advise here. :yes:

[tempichange]

True, unless my vet (who is definitely a horse vet) is one of the people telling me to feed her five pounds of SafeChoice. :eek: It's so hard getting good information on feeding horses. Dog people talk about it all the time (and dogs have more similar nutritional needs) but I've had such a hard time finding out good information from horse people.

Thats why I really appreciate the advise here. :yes:

Actually, there's a ton of good information out there, it's a matter of where you look and ask.

Many vets, while great at medicine, aren't really good nutritionists. Many people see horse, but it's the metabolism and work load that dictates how much. Yes, they know more the basics, but go to the people who have the degrees and career in this.

Your best bet is to talk to a nutritionist from the company (who had a hand making the feed) or another about the situation. My recommendation is to talk to McCauley Brothers. While, they are not your feed manufacturer, they will give you an honest opinion.

[piccolopony]

Actually, there's a ton of good information out there, it's a matter of where you look and ask.

That's the part I've been having trouble with.:) Thanks for the suggestion. I'll see about contacting them to figure out a vitamin/mineral supplement. Just out of curiosity, what do you feed May? (yeah, I did finally figure out who you were :yes: I'm feeling a little slow tonight.)

[tempichange]

That's the part I've been having trouble with.:) Thanks for the suggestion. I'll see about contacting them to figure out a vitamin/mineral supplement. Just out of curiosity, what do you feed May? (yeah, I did finally figure out who you were :yes: I'm feeling a little slow tonight.)

Because May is a lactating broodmare, she gets this:
AM/PM:
4 pounds total of 14 percent
quarter pound of M-30
two pounds of equine one
All the grass she can eat.

When she wasn't lactating or carrying a foal, she just got the M-30 in the spring and summer, and in the winter, a quarter pound of 14 percent to keep the weight on.

Sinari currently gets:
2 quarter pounds of 14 and M30 am/pm with about 10lbs of grass hay. Plus supplements.

In shape:
Two pounds am/pm of 14 percent
the quarter pound
A choice of Equine One
18lbs of grass hay.
Supplements

[slc2]

What you need to get over, is, 'What is May eating'.

What May is eating works for May, a lactating broodmare, who by all research, practical exxperience and everything else, needs to eat at least TWICE what your horse eats!

And that doesn't necessarily work for your horse.

I have a quiet old retired warmblood I can't feed even a HANDFUL of Progressive Ration Balancer, a perfectly nice feed, or he goes completely bonkers, screaming and running around in circles in his stall, and freaking out at every familiar, usually ignored thing that happens around him. And so, in fact, do a number of other horses in my area. And a number of OTHER horses, DON'T!

So what do I do? Just keep feeding my horse Progressive Ration Balancer and tell him to READ THE CHART?

BY THE CHART, it makes NO SENSE. LOOK AT THE HORSE. 'The eye of the master fatteneth the cattle'.

If your horse is getting obnoxious, kicking, bolting, wheeling on the longe line and you can't work her more often...I suggest you change her feed. I think if you look at it from that angle, it makes sense.

[egontoast]

People who spend their lives posting expert opinions on the net are not necessarily experts.

Not saying you don't need to reduce the grain (don't know) but young growing horses need more calories than elderly retired horses. Young growing horses sometimes act silly and challenge "authority". It's normal. I'd worry if a young growing horse never showed any silliness or freshness.

Consistant appropriate work is a good thing. Talk to your vet.

[piccolopony]

Thanks Tempichange, I was just curious :)

[Hampton Bay]

How is her body condition? Within the Arab breed, there are several different types. They *tend* to be easy keepers who can be prone to IR, but not all of them are that way certainly.

My 3.5-yo Arab is a pretty darned easy keeper, but only when he is out 24/7. Even in the winter with no grass, he still does better being out all the time. If he's in a stall, he has more trouble keeping weight and a good coat. But since he is out all the time, he gets either grass or about 20 pounds of hay a day (he's 15.2h, about 1000lb or so) and a minimal amount of alfalfa cubes, just to get the SmartVite into him. That works for him. But it might not work for every Arab.

If your girl is chunky, as in you have trouble feeling her ribs, then you can certainly cut back on the amount of SafeChoice she gets. You might also try a different feed if she is difficult more frequently. Like SLC2 said, some horses do well on some feeds and some don't. My big mare gets nutso when on even a small amount of soy. No one else here seems to. SafeChoice is soy-based, as are many commercial feeds. You could try her off of it for a week, it might help, or it might not.

But I really would not get too upset or concerned over a couple isolated incidents of naughty behavior in a young horse. It happens. Correct it at the time, and move on. If it becomes a frequent thing, then maybe there is something there.

[goeslikestink]

Hi guys,
So this is my first topic on this BB. I have a had a few bad days with my greenie and I'm looking for some opinions. I will give you just a really brief background on me.

I have been riding horses since I was seven and we've owned horses since I was twelve. I've had very few really serious riding lessons but in those I've had the instructor's have been quite impressed with my position, hands etc. so I'm really a very fair rider at least and what I lack in lessons I make up for in being able to stick on just about anything. I used to jump but now have a passion for Dressage.


people that ride since young doesnt always make them a rider and thats not being nasty or snarky you admit you call yourself a fair rider its not all about stinking on ahorse when it does xyz either


Fast forward to about a year ago, after being horseless for about a year (but still riding my sister's horse occasionally) I went out and bought my dream horse. The first horse I've actually had that I've bonded with and really care for, and who cares for me at all :D

ok occassionally rode since younger




Sora, the horse, is a 3 1/2 year old, 14.3 Arabian filly. She is a really great Dressage prospect, WONDERFUL, Drool worthy walk, great trot, well balanced canter with a fair amount of jump etc.


this where you lack expreince as you are a rider and not a horse owner up until now
shes 3.5yrs old in other words a baby ned that knows nothing



She's also my heart horse and my princess which does make working on some things harder although I've never failed to correct her if I need to.



She is also really SANE compared to most other Arabians IV'E been around. I bought her specifically as a training project and I have the experience to make that work. i.e. I've trained three ponies from the ground up (stubborn, smart little buggers :P), one Missouri Fox Trotter as a trail horse, and I've polished up three other horses. I have NO problem sticking on something but the horse I used to have fell down a lot and that is still scaring me a little.

i would say not as your comparing her to the above that you stuck on not actually
broke in or did as they were already done and you rode them there is a difference




Anyway, recently I've had a few bad days with Sora.
like i said shes a baby to be honest you have done a lot for her to accept it all in her mind
and work out where it all connects together



Part of it is that I just don't have time to consistently work her,

consistency - how much do you actually do on this mare i get the impression you do everything all at once and expect her to know what your asking of her which shes so young jumping shes shouldnt be doing yet as her bones are still softish and havent yet developed properly

part of it is that we don't have any good places to ride,

this again tells me you expect to much of this young filly -as the word ride means to me and give the impression to me you ride her fully and do far to much


everything is outside a fence,

and - if one knows how to school a horse properly it can be done outside just as much as in
as i do that a lot


previous horse inst her - again this is giving me the impression you go fast and fast work
which you can work outside doing si ly half halts lengthening shortening etc in a controlled manner and pace dwon quiet road lanes or tracks or open countryside

Today, even after consistent work, and reinforcing good habits religiously she kicked out at me on the long lines, spun and took off (yeah, I know, I'm already beating myself up about it) and just resisted in general the entire time.

and------ are you long linging correctly or lunging what equipent do you have on the horse and how are using or doing it if you dont do it correctly the horse has the advantage


It was warm and not windy and there was nothing that should have made her act badly. I wouldn't mind too much if this were an isolated incident but it seems like lately we've been having more bad days than good.


this again tells me a gives me the impression you dont actually know how to do it
as its happening more than the odd once and the horse has learnt to advade you
which i hate to sayis lack of expreince and confidence which you have admited in previous sentence


I have two questions really.
The first is, should I just let her go for the rest of the winter. I'm not going to be able to work her much soon when the weather gets colder anyway, and then just start up again in the spring when the weather is better? I will be moving her to a boarding facility either this summer or the next and I'll be much better in an arena I think :-)

you have admitted you need help otherwise you wouldnt ask
you do need a instructor or trianer to help you help yourself and your horse
you can find an accredited trainer on any club, association, or soceity connected to the fei
like 4-h. usfei. etc usapony club riding clubs etc




Or, should I start to think about sending my baby off to a trainer? I won't be able to afford the type of Dressage trainer I really want this year but I might this coming summer. Right now I have access to a young pony clubber (17-18) that trains horses really well and mostly just puts a nice solid foundation on them and I might be able to afford her.


dont go for a pony clubber shes has no more knowledge than you do but can opt for the getting hold of the dc of that branch of the pony club who would then put you in touch with qualifed trianer - as they hold clinics and often rallies in local area some have adult camps so wise to give her a call


I'm looking for opinions both ways and I'm wondering if any of you have had to make this decision. I'm not absolutely attached to the idea of training her completely from the ground up and I know some of my friends that have sent horses off for training have actually had a stronger bond with them because they aren't the ones dealing with the training. However, it was the reason I bought her and I do like the idea of doing everything myself.

this is the problem you brought her a trianing project but like isad havent the knowledge or skill to back it up - you can ride but not in the sense of education
which i admire you for holding up your hands and saying help -

you can do most of it yourself but you need to be consistence and build up the horse from 30 mins to an hour ie 15 mins each side and take her slowly through her paces rather than rushing her
time and pateince make a good horse
opt for the pony dc - as its obviously local to you and get yourself a membership
perhaps if you arei n ayard ask for a clinic to be done there for the pc as they cover everything from breaking to schooling to grooming to feeding etc
this might be a cheaper option for you

[piccolopony]

Hampton Bay,
Sora is a fairly easy keeper. With the grain last year she got just a little chubby by spring but she was also growing at a much faster rate than she is now and I was slowing building her up since she was fairly thin when I got her. I do have a little trouble feeling her ribs :D and she has leveled off in growth. I cut way down on her grain about two days ago and already tonight I noticed a difference. She just didn't seem nearly as frantic?, nuts? I'm going to give it a week or so to be sure and I'll watch her carefully to make sure she doesn't loose any/too much weight.

goeslikestink,
The thing is I do have the knowledge, skill, and experience to back it up actually. My previous riding instructors would agree as would several other respected, professional trainers in my area. I have actually helped a local riding instructor/friend put some miles on some young sales horses so I really DO know what I'm doing. I also realize that I DON'T know everything, which is why I asked for help on a specific problem.

The problem with Sora was/is a unique issue that I was depressed about because everything was going so well, it was the fact that it was no longer going so easily that had me spooked.

I have changed her feed and already in only two days I can tell a difference. Her attitude is like it used to be and we are back to making progress.

I have taken it slow, I bought her when she was two and spent almost a year on ground work before I EVER climbed on her back. Then I would only work on riding type stuff one-two days a week (if even that) and all of that was very slow and carefully building her up and only because she was really fine and happy with it all. Honestly I think you are really just looking for problems in my writing in the first post and nitpicking any little thing you can find even if what I wrote doesn't come even close to implying that I'm not skilled, or at least not skilled enough to start a very sane young horse especially when I don't expect her to an be FEI level dressage horse.

I do thank you for your concern but I think to say that I don't have the knowledge or skill over a BB when you don't even know me is a little presumptuous. Mainly I really don't feel I have the need to explain myself to you.

(By the way, I really don't know where you got that I'm jumping her because that's just crazy :no:)

Luckily I'm not training Sora for you.:D

[slc2]

piccolo, your worst problem may be your ability to so successfully fend off advice with a clever rejoinder. Put quite plainly, you have a way of making everyone wrong and every practical suggestion impossible to carry out.

GLS always has a brutal way of saying it, but you walked right in to being called inexperienced. I hate to say it, there isn't anything that you've said, in any of your posts, that indicates experience.

I've done the same things as you and far, far more, and I don't consider myself as so terribly, terribly 'experienced'. I consider myself, 'OLD' and that's about it, LOL!

Climbing up on a youngster now and then that someone else is bringing along at an appropriate facility, on a plan and a schedule, is a WORLD apart from doing it entirely yourself, and doing it at a place where you don't work the horse routinely or have any help.

The bottom line is that there is no breed of horse that at 3, is going to always be perfectly quiet and easy, especially under the circumstances you describe. ESPECIALLY.

You're keeping a young horse of a breed that is typically sensitive and active, at a place where you can't work her regularly because the footing is so slippery most of the time and then are upset when the horse gets shtanky, you're feeding her too much, and you're having concerns about common ordinary problems that experienced people take in stride and take care of. These are all signs of inexperience.

Further, you do the one thing all inexperienced horse people do - you ask for help, and when told to make changes such as get a decent instructor to help you, that commonsense would tell you would get you better results, you respond by insisting you have plenty of experience yourself...or can't possibly do it because you have no money right now.

The bottom line is this. We need to have the money to get them vet care, training, whatever is needed. We can very often work off lessons if we don't have alot of cash.

So even more inexperienced, I would say, is putting yourself in a situation with a young active frisky horse, where you don't have any money to get help should you need it, and even more a sign of inexperience, overestimate your experience and ability to handle the situation yourself.

Number one sign of an experienced horse person, is they know what they can handle, and what they can't. Second sign is they can handle quite a bit without help. Third sign is that when they can't they get help. GOOD HELP.

Suggestions.

Stop feeding your idle horse the 4 pounds of concentrates.

Feed it a vitamin mineral supplement, and cut down the rest of its feed til you can see its last 2 ribs moving when it breathes in and out. Have your vet evalute your horse's condition - a good vet can score it from 1-5. If you cut its feed down really low and it's still fat, give it more exercise. Big pasture with a herd where they play a lot, hand walking, longeing, ponying, riding, treadmill, hot walker, swimming, turn her loose and keep her moving around a big paddock, etc, minimizing the circling, round penning etc that strains legs*. A friend of mine has her horses go out running with her husband, LOL. Doesn't take a lot of money, just the effort.

Move to a barn where you can work your horse, where the footing is not slippery. You don't need a fancy barn, just one with a dry spot where the horse can be longed and ridden.

Have an instructor come out to your barn and give you pointers about how to handle your horse. Get the horse working under saddle, if you can't or are afraid to, get someone good who will. It is better to ride a youngster 20 minutes a day 6 days a week than an hour twice a week. Routine, routine, routine.

Save up your nickles and pennies, give something else up, get paid help. I would only rely on the 17 year old pony clubber if she is really exceptionally knowledgeable and reliable - there is nothing about Pony Club that guarantees a pony club kid will be good at training any green horse. Pony Clubs vary markedly from area to area - some are good and some are very, very weak. So do kids IN Pony Club vary, Pony Club activity is no guarantee of anything.

AND....if her help is free, I would not expect it to go on for long - I'd plan for a time when she is not available any longer.

* Longeing, to be productive, need not go on for more than 10 min. LOL....a local gal used to longe her horse at a canter for 45 minutes before she got on. She leaves it with trainer because she is having trouble with the horse. She asks trainer, how long do you longe her. Trainer says 10 min. Owner is furious, so comes to watch the trainer. This horse, who the student longed at a CANTER for FORTY FIVE MINUTES for MONTHS prior, a horse the student believed was REALLY WORKING, LOL, was dripping wet after 10 min of longing with the trainer...AT A TROT. No, the trainer did not whip her or make her run, in fact, it looked like the trainer was doing nothing at all, LOL. The trainer asked horse to take a contact with the bit, and track up at the trot...more work in ten minutes than cantering the horse for FORTY FIVE MINUTES. Longeing can be productive as well as brief.

[goeslikestink]

if one was expreinced then one would know how to get over this problem

The problem with Sora was/is a unique issue that I was depressed about because everything was going so well, it was the fact that it was no longer going so easily that had me spooked.

if you lack the tinest bit of confidence then the horse has the advantage

and sora isnt unique shes a baby and babies do all sorts of things but they only leanr fromus the human so if she got your no then its what your doing with her

perhaps drop all grian till you have mastered her as it will calm her down and whilse you at it learn about feeds and feeding read the back of the packets
as are high energy some are low or cool, if you fed hay ab lib it wont harm her
and if its good quality then you dont need any supplements which again read and learn whats in it as to much of one thing and to little off another can over load or underlaod a horse easily and remember it only takes days to enter the system but a couple weeks to come out of the system

at no time have you mentioned using the half halt stride - all you have metioned is gadgets which are not ideal for such a young horse

[Roan]

I have to agree with the majority of what is posted here as advice and most notably:

* cut back on the feed. Big time.
* more consistent, quality work, not necessarily more work

And add something of my own:

When you are training you really *have* to put this "heart horse" stuff on a shelf. Take it out when it's one on one and loving time, but during training DITCH IT. It is excess baggage and will only get in the way. YOU need to be the alpha, not her, and that's what happens in "heart horse" situations.

LEAD, don't be lead. Ask me how I know this ;)

One more thing -- regardless of how well she acts normally, ditch that halter and get a proper cavesson. If she's feeling her oats, so to speak, control is everything. Long lining is good, but you should do that with a cavesson and/or bit, not a halter.

Just my 2 cents
Eileen

[slc2]

And worth a whole lot more than two cents.

I think the 'ditch the heart horse stuff' was the one thing I most assuredly did not want to address, mostly because the counter attack is so obvious.

But so, so true.

[Roan]

And worth a whole lot more than two cents.

I think the 'ditch the heart horse stuff' was the one thing I most assuredly did not want to address, mostly because the counter attack is so obvious.

But so, so true.

Thanks. I wish it wasn't true but it is and I had -- have -- the same problem.

We're fine on the ground now. Still working on "who's the boss" in the saddle ;)

Best thing is -- she still loves me. In fact, I think she loves me more now than she did before we had our first Come To Jesus meeting.

Eileen

[goeslikestink]

I have to agree with the majority of what is posted here as advice and most notably:

* cut back on the feed. Big time.
* more consistent, quality work, not necessarily more work

And add something of my own:

When you are training you really *have* to put this "heart horse" stuff on a shelf. Take it out when it's one on one and loving time, but during training DITCH IT. It is excess baggage and will only get in the way. YOU need to be the alpha, not her, and that's what happens in "heart horse" situations.

LEAD, don't be lead. Ask me how I know this ;)

One more thing -- regardless of how well she acts normally, ditch that halter and get a proper cavesson. If she's feeling her oats, so to speak, control is everything. Long lining is good, but you should do that with a cavesson and/or bit, not a halter.

Just my 2 cents
Eileen



ooh i missed that one roan-- echo you - you should have bridle on the horse if lunging or a lunge caversson not just a halter or lead rope and if lunging with a bridle then you either go over the head to the other side or under the chin to the other you never ever ever lunge on the same side as the bit ring - why makes things difficult for yourself as then horse has full advantage then and if she pulls - then she will turn in or out and kick rear buck or what ever and or you will pull the bit ring through her mouth and then cause another issue

this is something if yourt trianers had any sense should have shown you how to lunge or line rein properly and again lack of expericne is comming through and lack of knowledge and also confidence

am not getting at you trying to point out to whats wrong and how you can improve it

if i was you i would change my trianers and find someone else to help you with a bit more savvy

slc2 says am brutal lol nope just honest i say it how it is how i read it i dont beat about the bush
whats the point in that, direct and to the point,, now thinking of that see that makes me alpha
now what you have to do is take that in the same context and apply it to your horse
givinng her direct signal -

mate
horses mind work like this- 1st is to flee 2nd is to avade you
now if in a open field they could flee and runaway if restriced like say on a lead rope or you on top in the saddle then they can advade you - simple
now confusion, hestatiion and lack of confidence and or expreince can all be fear factors to a horse in hs mind

now lets break this down so your clear

you said shes unqiue and i got spooked - right

thats alack of confidence a young horse is at an impressionable age - so what ever we do its going to look to us for guidance and confidence its going puts its turst in whatever we do thats why they so easily domesticated been used for centeries for this that and the other ok

you got spook - horse went iam SPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPOOOK AS IT ECHO YOU

a horse only re acts to hw you act- lack of confiidence is a fear factor to ahorse
lack of expreince in how to handle that spook or training is also a fear factor to a horse

what you need to do is get a decent trianer and one that knows exactly how to bring on a young horse- look for any assocaition club or soceity that connected to the fei as they all have listed accredited trianers and if your trinaer was worth a light they would be on there to but i doubt it as they havent bothered to tell you or instructed you that your better to long rein a younster rather than lunge one by proven method of working the from butt to poll to relaxed yaw using the the half halt stride when ridden so you can balance the horse by lengthening and shortening your strides and to inform the horse something going to change by using a direct clear signal- the half halt stride is a basic training movement which is used in all displines the same as trot walk and canter and comes way before si ly and flying changes etc its also higly used in jumping

and not once hae you indicated that your trianers use one of the most commonest movements
if how ever they dont know or cant show you then change the trianer better for you and the horse
to work the horse properly line reining will teach the horse basic commands keeping it forwards and focused also helps will balance and top line

nor have they told you working young horses that age on the will put and add extra stresses and strians on undeveloped legs and mussles but your juming her as well which a good horse person wouldnt do until they at least 5yrs old

you need to learn a tad rather than be defensive use it on the horse and be a tad more assertive

[piccolopony]

Hi guys,

If it sounds like I'm being defensive I do apologize because I honestly don't mean to be.

I have actually taken advise/criticism to heart, she is already on a different feeding program and I will be taking her to a trainer in the summer after all the worried posts that I am unable to handle this horse. Just because I can't run out right now and start paying to have the best trainer (in your opinion) in the world, you state that I make even the most practical advise sound impossible. Not everyone has the ability to do this type of thing in a heartbeat, it doesn't mean I'm not listening.

I do realize that I don't have nearly the experience that someone who has been doing this for 20, 30 or even fifty years does or even some who have been doing this exactly as long as I have been. I also realize that I need to work with a good trainer and I plan on it and will certainly do so in the summer when I have the time and funds and hope to continue with a good trainer for the rest of my life. I would LOVE more than you can believe to just be able to work with a good trainer now but it just isn't in the cards.

What I was saying is that unless I wrote a post that was like a book it would be really hard for anyone over a BB to accurately understand how much experience and ability I do have. I would be happy to provide you with references of trainers that would say I am capable (read capable not incredible, perfect etc.) of training this young horse for myself until I do have the opportunity to work with someone to help me take her the rest of the way.

I know I really opened myself up for criticism on the whole "heart horse" thing but I did honestly want you to know that that is/was the way I felt about her so that I would get an honest evaluation. It is something I know is a weakness and whether you believe it or not is something I have been considering since I first started working with her.We've also had a few "come to jesus" meetings :D and we've also survived them. She does respect me which is the only way I would let it be with such a large animal.

Finally I will repeat AGAIN that I am NOT jumping Sora. I really don't know where that came up but even if I EVER jump her it won't be until she's 6-7 and she can handle it. I also do know that working with a horse this young can and will put added stress on joints, muscle, bone etc and that is why I repeat that I have only EVER longed her for about 5-10 minutes at the most and that when I ride I keep it to 10-20 minute sessions at the most. Most of this is apparent in my previous posts if they are read through carefully. ;)

Additionally the reason I did post was to get some other opinions on why she may have had a PERSONALITY change and I got that in the form of advice about feeding. I have already made a change (for those of you who aren't reading through the entire thread) and she is already better. I thank all of those people who played along and gave constructive criticism and trusted the fact that I am a smart person and would never have taken this on unless I could handle it.

Finally I know that I'm the new comer and everyone is going to think and picture the worst and that I am completely incapable because that is our nature as people. I know I do it with new people as well. I don't expect you to all just respect my ability as a trainer/horseperson and that is the only reason I am standing up for myself. It would really be so much easier if we could all meet in person :D:D goeslikestink, I think we'd get along, I also like it direct and to the point or brutal as slc2 puts it :yes:

[goeslikestink]

Hi guys,

If it sounds like I'm being defensive I do apologize because I honestly don't mean to be.

I have actually taken advise/criticism to heart, she is already on a different feeding program and I will be taking her to a trainer in the summer after all the worried posts that I am unable to handle this horse. Just because I can't run out right now and start paying to have the best trainer (in your opinion) in the world, you state that I make even the most practical advise sound impossible. Not everyone has the ability to do this type of thing in a heartbeat, it doesn't mean I'm not listening.


didnt say you wasnt - matey i re school re train and break horses and ponies on a regualr basis so if there a problem then theres not much i havent seen be it from absuive sitations pysiical situations or both or from just plain bad education most can be sorted once you find the problem

I do realize that I don't have nearly the experience that someone who has been doing this for 20, 30 or even fifty years does or even some who have been doing this exactly as long as I have been. I also realize that I need to work with a good trainer and I plan on it and will certainly do so in the summer when I have the time and funds and hope to continue with a good trainer for the rest of my life. I would LOVE more than you can believe to just be able to work with a good trainer now but it just isn't in the cards.


good, but in the mean time dont go to the trainers you have already as they have ill advised you and are lets be honest only at the same sort of level your at so theres not going to be any improvement or going forwards

so lets look at what you can do, in the mean time

work the horse on all walk paces and all trot paces using the half halt stride check my helpful links pages as i expalin how to do it, awlay teach a horse new things in walk then down gears if learning a transition change with the collected pace of the half halt
s o wlak a few paces down gear to half halt halt -- theres no where esle to go but stop
once the horse and you have mastered it in downwards transition then mastered it in an upwards one from say freee walk to medium walk then back down to free walk then back up to medium wlak then to extended walk once mastered all walks add the trot paces as in all trot paces medium working extended - then mix the two
the half halt stride informs the horse something going to the horse can be used from a collected pace to a faster pace and visa versa
use the lenght and width of the school to help you - in shortening and lenthening your paces and to help keep the horse forwards and striaght keep the rhtyem and the eneregy together so you can use it to help the horse balance herself properly tthe she wont rush
and it will be more controlled for you as you will be then working the horse from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw using an indpendant seat secure light leg and soft quiet hands



What I was saying is that unless I wrote a post that was like a book it would be really hard for anyone over a BB to accurately understand how much experience and ability I do have. I would be happy to provide you with references of trainers that would say I am capable (read capable not incredible, perfect etc.) of training this young horse for myself until I do have the opportunity to work with someone to help me take her the rest of the way.

any one in usa can be a trianer here in uk they are qualified by proven career / expreinces or bhs triaining passing examinations they are all listed accredited trianers on any club society etc assocaited with the fei. ie for us its pony club, riding clubs, bryds , british dressage, bjsa , bef, etc
to me 4 horses is still a novice just 4 little expreinces -as in a tiny step on a huge never ending ladder


I know I really opened myself up for criticism on the whole "heart horse" thing but I did honestly want you to know that that is/was the way I felt about her so that I would get an honest evaluation. It is something I know is a weakness and whether you believe it or not is something I have been considering since I first started working with her.We've also had a few "come to jesus" meetings :D and we've also survived them. She does respect me which is the only way I would let it be with such a large animal.

so why get spooked at alittle nap on the lunge line



Finally I will repeat AGAIN that I am NOT jumping Sora. I really don't know where that came up but even if I EVER jump her it won't be until she's 6-7 and she can handle it. I also do know that working with a horse this young can and will put added stress on joints, muscle, bone etc and that is why I repeat that I have only EVER longed her for about 5-10 minutes at the most and that when I ride I keep it to 10-20 minute sessions at the most. Most of this is apparent in my previous posts if they are read through carefully. ;)

Additionally the reason I did post was to get some other opinions on why she may have had a PERSONALITY change and I got that in the form of advice about feeding. I have already made a change (for those of you who aren't reading through the entire thread) and she is already better. I thank all of those people who played along and gave constructive criticism and trusted the fact that I am a smart person and would never have taken this on unless I could handle it.

when you need a bit mor energy add a bit at a time if to much take it away learn your feedstuffs it will help you
and remember any pellet grain is a complete foodstuffs by that it has high energy parts to the nut like oats etc

Finally I know that I'm the new comer and everyone is going to think and picture the worst and that I am completely incapable because that is our nature as people. I know I do it with new people as well. I don't expect you to all just respect my ability as a trainer/horseperson and that is the only reason I am standing up for myself. It would really be so much easier if we could all meet in person :D:D goeslikestink, I think we'd get along, I also like it direct and to the point or brutal as slc2 puts it :yes:


mate respect as trianer doesnt come with just four neds a few refrences it comes with time and true understanding of the horse in front of you

a long time ago billy smart himself said to me to understand a horse 1st you must get close to that horse

this is my favourite quote i loved that man a true blue horsemen of his time
it also has more than one meaning when you have learnt the 1st one then your are staring to understand the word -trianing and the word respect
theres a difference from being asked to be respected as a trianer than being held in respect as a trianer with a proven background - in other words matey you earn it

this where i got the jumpp bit from -well balanced canter with a fair amount of jump etc.

horses dont jump in canter so to me its unbalanced as she young probabaly has a legs 11 stage
as legs go anywhere - and not collected so disunited canter
appologise if i said you jumped her as i mis read it..
you need to work on the wlak and trot so shes more balcned in canter using the half halt stride get the basics in then the rest will follow with ease
and dont for god sake spend all day in a areana take her and about and let ehr see a bit of life
and work the horse outside as you would insside

you can ride you just need tiding up and applying yourself proeprly to the horse

[piccolopony]

And how do you know that I don't, in my humble opinion even the most talented horse person in the world wouldn't be able to tell that over a BB, that's the problem I'm having with your posts.

Also, I honestly never looked for you personally, to respect me as a trainer. That would mean a lot but it's not something I'm looking for when I've only been training horses for about 6 years. What I'm saying is that I do have people who respect me as a horse person and trust me as a trainer, for this one specific horse, who have actually witnessed my training ability. You will notice that I'm not advertising myself as the next big horse trainer. (Although I think all I'd really need to do at this point is attached some sort of rope to some sort of noodle. Oh, and get a show on RFD :D )

That is a wonderful quote by the way :-)

[goeslikestink]

its true quote

[LilyandBaron]

I understand that to chronicle all of your experience would take too long, so assuming you have the skills, and just lack facilities, which was really your question, here's an idea - could you half-lease her to someone? I just recently got my first horse after 19 years of riding everything I could, and I KNOW there are probably some really talented young riders that want a good experience and in this economy, you might be able to work that out. That might help you get your horse into a facility sooner - share the board cost with someone who is either skilled or working with a trainer you trust. And personally, I always like to have someone else ride any horse that I'm training - it's so easy in training to plateau. I often accept progress on something before we really finish it - and having someone else hop on and say, Oh, she's heavy on the right rein, or whatever, keeps me honest. Plus, I can watch her go. Good feedback will only help your training. If you have goals to do dressage, something from your post that sounds fairly new to you as well, having someone help you develop this mare without any missteps will be huge. Don't think the highest level rider out there is best, though!!! Too many young horses have been RUINED by top trainers that expect too much too soon! Make sure ANYONE helping you understands young, developing horses, not just Grand Prix horses. And someone that likes Arabs and won't push you to buy something in Germany would be good, too. Good luck!