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Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:17 PM
Coming from Europe, what does a beautiful, 7 or 8 yr. old, 14.2hh pony stallion with perfect form and behavior go for in America?

Can easily jump 4' courses as well.

Thanks,

- C

dags
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:27 PM
Probably not a lot, we'd have to see that "perfect form" equals the American opinion of perfect form as they can differ. As a stallion it will only appeal to the breeding barns, in which case it needs a documented record of kid proof behavior. Jumping 4' doesn't really add much to the ad as ponies don't jump over 3' here, unless it's the pony jumpers, for which there is no decent market anyway. Plus, breeding quality ponies is something Americans actually do excel at, so there's not a huge shortage of great pony stallions here.

Hard to say without pics, video and a show record to examine . . . which you can't post because that would be construed at advertising . . . can't really pinpoint a actual dollar amount for you without that. Sorry!

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:35 PM
Hi Dags,

I hoped you would reply. Thank you very much. That is very helpful nonetheless. I will convey your message. I agree with you about perfect form differing between continents. Especially with hunters, it seems everyone thinks they know, but it is a little more complicated than just pulling the knees up squarely. :-)

I would like to email you the info (when I finally get it), is that okay? Might take a long time though. BTW, I am not in any way trying to sell the pony, just helping a friend.

Thanks again,

- C

P.S. If the pony is childproof and has good form, what would he go for?

Sugarbrook
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:37 PM
I will be real helpful LOL . What is his breeding? What do his foals look like?

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:40 PM
Very funny. I have no idea. I don't think they want to sell him for breeding. More for sport, in this case hunter, purposes.

- C

dags
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:50 PM
He's going to have to be gelded in that case, juniors can't show stallions over here in the pony divisions.

Without an American record it's just not going to be very much - the Green ponies, which is the stepping stone division to the regular Small, Medium and Large divisions, have taken a real hit, people want proof they can make the lines, handle mistakes, and take care of the charge at the regular division heights before they spend much. I have a Top 10 Green Pony finisher (Pony Finals) in the mid/high 5s who is getting a ton of interest now, but wasn't so much when she was a true green bean at the beginning of the year. She had to go prove herself before people would pay attention.

Just off someone's word that they have a "great, kidproof pony with perfect form" but no show record I'm already thinking $15K just so I don't get my hopes up. If they show me video that proves all that I'll come up a bit, but until it goes around the show ring here it's still not going to be much. Feel free to send whatever you have through!

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:54 PM
Thanks. I appreciate that. I will let 'm know.

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 05:00 PM
BTW, the pony has shown for years. I saw him when he was 4 in the 3'3'' in the horse division. Now he jumps in 3'6'' classes with a 12-year old. Guess I should have made that clear.

JinxyFish313
Oct. 16, 2009, 05:03 PM
Hmmm I don't think I'd touch a large that was showing 3'3" @ 4 yrs old.

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 05:32 PM
Hmmm I don't think I'd touch a large that was showing 3'3" @ 4 yrs old.

Well, Europe is different from America.

I will see if I am correct though. I think it was 3'3'', but might have been 3'. Horses start at 3'3'' I think. Then, 3'8''. Then, 4'. Then, 4'4''. Then, 4'6''.

Local levels are: 1m, 1.10m, 1.20m, 1.30m, 1.35m and 1.40m (4'8''). I have no idea what levels those are in the U.S.

Also, he is still sound, so I doubt it hurt him much.

JinxyFish313
Oct. 16, 2009, 05:45 PM
When you jump too much and too high, too young...its not early on that soundness issues come up, its when they get to what should be their prime, IME.

VirginiaBred
Oct. 16, 2009, 06:00 PM
Coming from Europe, what does a beautiful, 7 or 8 yr. old, 14.2hh pony stallion with perfect form and behavior go for in America?



14.2? From Europe? What is it's breeding? BRP?

ponies123
Oct. 16, 2009, 06:31 PM
A pony jumping 3'3 means practically nothing in the US, except for possible future lameness issues. Larges jump 3' in the hunters and that is where the money is, not in the pony jumpers. Most people have no reason to jump their ponies any higher than 3' and most people wouldn't think of jumping around their large 4 y/o 3'3" in what must be a jumper class (speed, tight turns, and big jumps are very wearing on a young horse). I don't know of many, if any, larges doing the regular division at 3' as 4 y/o's and that is 8 fences, long and slow.

superpony123
Oct. 16, 2009, 06:39 PM
Very funny. I have no idea. I don't think they want to sell him for breeding. More for sport, in this case hunter, purposes.

- C

geld him and if your 'perfect form' idea is similar to that of american ideals (not to say that american ideals are 'better' just different for what we look for in a hunter) then he should be worth a good price.

but if he's not useful for breeding, he's also worthless--juniors cannot show stallions, and pros can't unless it's in unrated divisions i believe--and pros will not buy a pony for themselves to show 99% of the time

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 06:45 PM
Randee,

I will get back to you on the breeding.

Ponies,

Okay, my friend did not enter the horse in those classes. This was before he bought him. Obviously they did not ride him fast.

Anyway, the difference between continents is very interesting. I like the go slow approach.

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 06:46 PM
Sarah,

What is a good price?

VirginiaBred
Oct. 16, 2009, 07:15 PM
Will be interesting to know the breeding because that would make a big difference in the price.

quicksilverponies
Oct. 16, 2009, 07:23 PM
As others have said, wonderful pony jumpers in Europe do not necessarily move like top hunters in the USA which are the ponies that sell for more over here. There is not a huge demand for pony jumpers here at all. Pony stallions can not be shown by juniors and ponies can not compete against other ponies in pony classes unless ridden by a junior. Therefore, what would make this pony most valuable would be his movement - is he a huge, flat mover? And his look - does he have outstanding conformation? Also, does he have any get on the ground showing here in the USA? That is a big factor in marketing a stallion here. And as Randee said, his pedigree might be a big factor if his bloodlines are well known over here.

LudgerFan
Oct. 16, 2009, 07:30 PM
This makes me so sad. Pony jumpers are just what our young riders need. :no:

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 08:16 PM
This makes me so sad. Pony jumpers are just what our young riders need. :no:

Yeah, because all those Europeans who started on ponies are such horrible riders.

chunky munky
Oct. 16, 2009, 08:20 PM
We might have a division if we use flat cups for all jumps. Just personal thoughts.Nnew thought...take out combinations?

quicksilverponies
Oct. 16, 2009, 08:21 PM
No one has suggested that European riders aren't excellent. They just don't do hunter ponies over there. There is just a huge difference between top pony jumpers in Europe and top pony hunters in the US.

scribbles
Oct. 16, 2009, 08:25 PM
Yeah, because all those Europeans who started on ponies are such horrible riders.

i doubt that was what they meant

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 08:34 PM
"This makes me so sad. Pony jumpers are just what our young riders need."

Okay, maybe I misunderstood, but a sad smilie combined with the above sentence makes me believe the author wants to convey the message that a pony jumpers division would somehow harm American young riders. If it harms young riders, it means they don't grow up to be good older riders. Hence my comment.

Now, back to topic please.

VirginiaBred
Oct. 16, 2009, 08:34 PM
And as Randee said, his pedigree might be a big factor if his bloodlines are well known over here.
But on the other hand it could be a detriment as well.

dags
Oct. 16, 2009, 08:57 PM
"This makes me so sad. Pony jumpers are just what our young riders need."

Okay, maybe I misunderstood, but a sad smilie combined with the above sentence makes me believe the author wants to convey the message that a pony jumpers division would somehow harm American young riders. If it harms young riders, it means they don't grow up to be good older riders. Hence my comment.

Now, back to topic please.

99.9% sure Ludgar was lamenting the absence of pony jumpers here in America. As do I. A little too much outside-diagonal-outside, you must be perfect at 2'3" before you can even THINK of 2'6", "oh my god horsey threw his head, bad horsey!!!" mentality over here, and far fewer kids growing up with the guts and brawn to make a mistake work, ride the naughties and think on their own.

To bring this back to your topic, "Kid Proof" over here might be something wholey different than "Kid Proof" over there. The beasts must truly be saintly, have a sense of humor a mile wild, and have little to no opinion of their own.

In all honesty, Pony Jumpers are exactly what we need over here, especially since it's THE most affordable show beast in existence.

Mac123
Oct. 16, 2009, 09:10 PM
"This makes me so sad. Pony jumpers are just what our young riders need."

Okay, maybe I misunderstood, but a sad smilie combined with the above sentence makes me believe the author wants to convey the message that a pony jumpers division would somehow harm American young riders. If it harms young riders, it means they don't grow up to be good older riders. Hence my comment.

Now, back to topic please.


I know LF and we often lament the LACK of pony jumpers in America because we both see huge value in how you guys start your kids. :yes:

It was a compliment to the Pony Jumper program in Europe and the frown face was a sadness that we don't have anything remotely similar over here in the states.

While the two systems can be debated, as a general rule, there is no doubt that your kids have learned how to RIDE and get the job done, if a little hairy, simply because of the sheer size of the fences those ponies are jumping.

Clarence
Oct. 16, 2009, 09:27 PM
Ludgerfan,

I apologize I so misunderstood you! I had not even thought of that possibility. Glad I got corrected.

Guess I shouldn't spend so much time online.

I am glad there are people here who actually think pony jumper divisions would be a good thing.

Apologies again to LF.

Long days...

llsc
Oct. 17, 2009, 09:14 AM
If you go to Youtube and search Pony Finals, you can find lots of videos of the type of ponies our kids ride. Pony Finals is the championship show for ponies here, so lots of very nice ones to look at. You will get a feel for type, movement and jump.

Also, check out www.empirespower.com. He's a European pony that is standing at stud over here. You could contact his owner and chat with her about the market for larger pony stallions. If your pony moves and jumps like Empire's Power, it would be more than welcome over here.:)

VirginiaBred
Oct. 17, 2009, 09:17 AM
There are many imported crossbred, BRP, etc. standing here for the breeder to select from. Morton Stables and also Prue Richardson have several as does Trevelyan Farm and numerous others. :)

ponies123
Oct. 17, 2009, 10:15 AM
Ponies,

Okay, my friend did not enter the horse in those classes. This was before he bought him. Obviously they did not ride him fast.

Where did I say your friend entered him in the classes? I didn't and I said nothing against your friend. It doesn't matter who entered him in the classes, he still was entered and for a pony being marketed in the US being shown at such a young age over those larger fence heights is often detrimental.

Although I don't agree with showing a young pony over those fence heights, it would be nice if America pony jumper options were more popular. My old large was a lovely hunter pony and we had success in the hunter ring, but if there had been a pony jumper option that was as marketable (and if I was a braver kid!) then she would have truly been a star in the jumper ring.

However at the moment we do not have anything remotely like the European system. May I ask why your friends want so badly to market him toward the US Hunter market instead of the European Pony Jumper market where, presumably, he has already shown success?

Clarence
Oct. 17, 2009, 10:35 AM
However at the moment we do not have anything remotely like the European system. May I ask why your friends want so badly to market him toward the US Hunter market instead of the European Pony Jumper market where, presumably, he has already shown success?

Sure. Yes, my friend just wants to sell him and thinks he would be a great hunter pony on top of being good for the jumpers in Europe. Also, since I am here, he asked me to ask around what those ponies go for here. That is why I posted. He will send me some pics and video so I should be able to forward that to Dags soon.

Also, his heritage is unknown so he would not be suitable for breeding. Apparently the breeder didn't want to pay the studfee so he said the mare was empty. Thus he never received papers with it. Got to love those backyard breeders. :-)

ponies123
Oct. 17, 2009, 10:40 AM
Sure. Yes, my friend just wants to sell him and thinks he would be a great hunter pony on top of being good for the jumpers in Europe. Also, since I am here, he asked me to ask around what those ponies go for here. That is why I posted. He will send me some pics and video so I should be able to forward that to Dags soon.

Also, his heritage is unknown so he would not be suitable for breeding. Apparently the breeder didn't want to pay the studfee so he said the mare was empty. Thus he never received papers with it. Got to love those backyard breeders. :-)

I am assuming the pony is still IN Europe in which case I think it would be really advisable to recommend your friend continue competing pony and marketing pony in Europe toward the pony jumpers. In the last few years some people in the US have been importing ponies (mostly warmbloods who are pony height) for the hunters, but not nearly as many people chose to do this as those looking for horses. The US is very successful in breeding top-notch ponies right here in the states that are exactly what people are looking for, so must people do not have the need to search out of country and add on big import fees. However if pony is already in the US I would recommend your friend gelds the pony and finds a good hunter trainer to send him to. This person will know the ins and outs of the show world as well as the sale world as far as hunters goes, and they will have a talented little rider to get some miles on him.

LudgerFan
Oct. 17, 2009, 10:44 AM
"This makes me so sad. Pony jumpers are just what our young riders need."

Okay, maybe I misunderstood, but a sad smilie combined with the above sentence makes me believe the author wants to convey the message that a pony jumpers division would somehow harm American young riders. If it harms young riders, it means they don't grow up to be good older riders. Hence my comment.

Now, back to topic please.

No, I really did mean it as said. I wish our efforts at creating healthy pony jumper divisions had succeeded on this side of the pond. I think it would really improve the quality of riding over here. Thus why I added the sad smilie. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

keepthelegend
Oct. 17, 2009, 11:29 AM
Can you take a video? I import a lot of ponies of Europe and generally the pony jumpers there are not the right type for our hunters. It really would not be worth bringing him over to sell as a jumper - our jumper market is much worse than yours! There is only a very slim chance he is hunter material but who knows.....get a video!

keepthelegend
Oct. 17, 2009, 11:48 AM
I do love the pony jumpers in Europe though! Our small ponies jump 2'3 and are pretty much never seen in the jumpers....over there 3'6!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5JQYae9XYU

LudgerFan
Oct. 17, 2009, 12:00 PM
Now THAT was fun to watch!

My son came in while I was watching and said, "Cool! I want to do that!" My point is, I think if the pony jumpers were ever to become popular here, I think a lot more boys would see it and want to do it. And simply for that reason, I wish it would...

Mac123
Oct. 17, 2009, 01:04 PM
THAT was awesome! Kid could ride and pony could jump!!

Clarence
Oct. 17, 2009, 02:32 PM
That was fun to watch.

I will get a video asap.

The pony is still in Europe and is doing well there. My friend just thinks he would also be suitable as a hunter. I guess once I have video I will post a link and we can all see whether or not my friend was right. I don't know as I don't know enough about hunters nor about the present state of rideability of the pony.

Thanks for all your answers.