Spinoff: Why do people put up with these types of horses?

[Dazednconfused]

After reading this (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=228463) thread (and feeling such sympathy for the OP there), three pages later it begs the question - why do people put up with horses like that? Horses are supposed to be fun and are a hobby for a good majority of the people on this board. Even if it's not a hobby and it is your livelihood (as it is for me), that is all the more reason to never willingly put up with horses like this. Or knowingly send the horse to a trainer, cowboy, or new owner (that claims they can deal with it) who could also be killed or put out of commission permanently??

Why also do people believe that horses aren't born this way? A lack of experience with a variety of horses? I firmly believe that though rare, there are definitely horses that are born not right (in fifteen years in horses I've run into three). After all - people put down aggressive dogs all the time, and there are certainly humans that are born not right as well?

I guess as a horse professional, I just don't get why anyone would find it fun to have a horse like the one in the thread (or the various others that get posted here, there's been quite a few over the years!) - always having to be on guard. Let alone risking yourself in that way - don't you worry about what could happen? Or how it would affect the family members you leave behind? Because a thousand pounds or more of angry horse (whether born or made that way), let alone one with no self preservation is absolutely a lethal weapon - and I figure people must just forget this?

I'm not referring to horses that are just a little bit quirky or difficult. There is a huge difference, and any experienced horseman knows that they are completely different beasts. I don't believe the latter are ever truly able to be rehabbed.

For me, I guess I just don't 'get' why one would continue with a horse like this - not only because of the risks to yourself, but also to your staff/employees and anyone who potentially comes in contact with the horse - along with it being terribly not fun and nervewracking to deal with on a daily basis. Even when these "bad" horses have good days, that fear must always be niggling in the back of your mind. And if it doesn't, then you are completely foolish, IMO. To me, the loving thing in situations like this is euthanization, for everyone's safety, and so that the horse no longer suffers.

[jn4jenny]

Before I say anything, let me say that my one and only "owned" horse is a delightful fellow. If I owned a monster of the type described in that link, I would either pay out the nose to send it to a top-notch cowboy trainer (with full disclosure of the issues) or have it euthed.

But here's some reasons I've seen for why people keep these horses:

1. They are "fixer" personalities. A lot of women project their own insecurities onto others by trying to "fix", expecting a psychological buzz when/if the "fix" works. I know lots of women who do it with husbands. Some women choose to do it with horses. Some women choose to do it with really crazy horses.

2. Some people have either not had the pleasure of having a "normal" horse in their life and thus don't know how much they're really suffering. Again, compare this to a woman who's only ever been in abusive relationships with men. She may be unable to conceptualize anything better even though it's obvious to the rest of us.

3. There is a tradeoff that the owner considers "due payment" for the horse's insanity. For example, maybe the horse is a schoolmaster under saddle at a very high level. I wouldn't trade complete insanity for this, but some people would.

4. Some people continue to believe that they'll find a magical cure that will take it all away. And sometimes they do--ulcers, kissing spine, very difficult-to-diagnose soft tissue injuries, a year off, etc. I also don't think we've reached the pinnacle of veterinary medicine yet. I have met people whose horses were absolute wackadoos until they pursued some kind of alternative therapy. Don't ask me why some horse would go from psychotic to angelic because of a mineral imbalance, but I have seen it with my own eyes. Some people hold out hope for a cure against all odds.

5. Some people don't believe in "disposable" horses. Again, let me repeat that I am not saying that on a soapbox; if I had such a horse I would euth it. But some people feel that you wouldn't dispose of a human being even if they were deeply mentally and physically ill, so they wouldn't do it with an animal either.

6. Some people got crappy advice from a fellow horse friend or professional, and/or a string of such professionals, that the horse could be saved with X/Y/Z treatment or training program. This is usually financially beneficial for the pro and of no use to the owner.

7. Some people are just stupid, and you can't fix stupid.

[Saidapal]

I think it's partly because most of us who own horses are female and the mothering instinct is in us whether we have human children or not. We want to help. We want to nurture, and we want things to be okay. And especially we don't want to admit something can't be fixed for someone/something we love.

My vet told me women have a hard time making the decision to put a horse down whereas men make the decision and stick to it. Women waffle. I truly believe it is because we are designed to give life, not take it away and the decision is harder for us.

[murphyluv]

jn4jenny just about covered it.
I have most of the time heard the "excuse" of the horse being extremly talented. Sorry, there are lots of talented horses out there- I don't want to get killed by one of them. Sure, some of those uber talented horses are just of a more outgoing, hot, temperamental nature, but not dangerous.
Especially if it's just an average horse-- why bother? If you have honestly given him a chance, it's not worth it.

[Highflyer]

Hey, I'm a woman and I often wonder why people put up with certain types of KIDS. Don't profile us.

In the right horse, I will put up with many, many quirks. Aggression toward people, though, is not ever acceptable.

[Dazednconfused]

To those that have responded so far - those are some illuminating answers that make sense (some of them in a slightly warped way, but...).

I'm curious as to how many "bad" horses you all have run into. Again I refer to the truly not-able-to-be-rehabbed types. As I mentioned earlier - three for me...

[LaurieB]

Before I say anything, let me say that my one and only "owned" horse is a delightful fellow. If I owned a monster of the type described in that link, I would either pay out the nose to send it to a top-notch cowboy trainer (with full disclosure of the issues) or have it euthed.

But here's some reasons I've seen for why people keep these horses:

1. They are "fixer" personalities. A lot of women project their own insecurities onto others by trying to "fix", expecting a psychological buzz when/if the "fix" works. I know lots of women who do it with husbands. Some women choose to do it with horses. Some women choose to do it with really crazy horses.

2. Some people have either not had the pleasure of having a "normal" horse in their life and thus don't know how much they're really suffering. Again, compare this to a woman who's only ever been in abusive relationships with men. She may be unable to conceptualize anything better even though it's obvious to the rest of us.

3. There is a tradeoff that the owner considers "due payment" for the horse's insanity. For example, maybe the horse is a schoolmaster under saddle at a very high level. I wouldn't trade complete insanity for this, but some people would.

4. Some people continue to believe that they'll find a magical cure that will take it all away. And sometimes they do--ulcers, kissing spine, very difficult-to-diagnose soft tissue injuries, a year off, etc. I also don't think we've reached the pinnacle of veterinary medicine yet. I have met people whose horses were absolute wackadoos until they pursued some kind of alternative therapy. Don't ask me why some horse would go from psychotic to angelic because of a mineral imbalance, but I have seen it with my own eyes. Some people hold out hope for a cure against all odds.

5. Some people don't believe in "disposable" horses. Again, let me repeat that I am not saying that on a soapbox; if I had such a horse I would euth it. But some people feel that you wouldn't dispose of a human being even if they were deeply mentally and physically ill, so they wouldn't do it with an animal either.

6. Some people got crappy advice from a fellow horse friend or professional, and/or a string of such professionals, that the horse could be saved with X/Y/Z treatment or training program. This is usually financially beneficial for the pro and of no use to the owner.

7. Some people are just stupid, and you can't fix stupid.


This is one of the best posts I've ever read in my 9 years on COTH. What she said. :yes:

[AnotherRound]

jn4jenny said all the reasons which go through my mind with threads like that.

Personally, I can't fathom allowing a rank animal to put any human in harm. A friend was bitten by a dog owned by a mutual aquaintance - it was a dog rescued at the age of 5, they've had it for 2 years, and it has progressively begun being agressive with the children (age 8, 11 and 13) in the house. My friend has seen the dog many times, and always stops at the front door and offers her hand and stays quiet, so the dog can sniff and accept her coming into the house. Its what she does for any dog, so do I. One day she came over, aquaintance opened the door, Ab offered her hand, didn't lean towards the dog, began talking to the aquaintance, and the dog leaped up and bit her face. Took part of her lip off.

Aquaintance took dog to vet to see if there was anything wrong with it, sick or whatever. Nothing was wrong, the dog remains in the household, they figure it was just a random once thing.

Not me. I would figure that it was why the dog was in a rescue to start with, and I would have the dog put down. What would I do, risk it happening again? Take a kid's eye out next time?

A rank animal like the horse in the other thread could kill someone. What if someone trips trying to get out of its paddock, and it tramples them? What if it catches the person its going after? What is the reasoning for keeping such an animal? None of the above mentioned reasons are appropriate. The horse should be euthanized, because it is trying to kill people. One day it will.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;4441887]After reading this (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=228463) thread (and feeling such sympathy for the OP there), three pages later it begs the question - why do people put up with horses like that?

I've been out all day and have not read the referenced thread except the clip of the first OP post

soooooo....having bred enough livestock in my life...furred, feathered and hairy let me say that poor behavior has an absolute base in genetics...

not to say that wonderful genetics can't be screwed up;) they can and quick...but nasty begets nasty and animals do not have a right to exist and cause potential harm to humans...not every one will share that un romantic view...

best

[murphyluv]

aren't there certain lines of horses that are known for being dangerous? Storm Cat? Hancock bred qh's???

[Tamara in TN]

aren't there certain lines of horses that are known for being dangerous? Storm Cat? Hancock bred qh's???

I do not believe that about the Hancock horses as they are some of the few that still work for a living out on the big ranches...


but there are certain cutting horse lines that are NOT for the Ammie rider...;)

Tb's I am not familiar with, but I was told that the Ace's Sensation line of walking horses (which no one on this board would ever lower themselves to owning anyway;)) were very dangerous to be around back in the 1970's...which may be why they are not as common today....

and I understand (from a little birdie) that a certain line of Swedish WB's are grumpy...

and as for mules avoid the ones with stripes:lol::lol:

best

[jn4jenny]

This is one of the best posts I've ever read in my 9 years on COTH. What she said. :yes:

Such high praise! Thanks! :eek:

I thought of one more reason. Some people feel guilty that either they, or someone in the horse's past, screwed the horse up. And they feel obligated to help the horse, not out of a personal "fixer personality" mentality but because they feel the horse is owed something by Humanity.

I feel that way too, except that my version of "owed something by Humanity" is "a peaceful and quiet death where they won't be able to hurt themselves, or anyone else, anymore."

[ChocoMare]

I thought of one more reason. Some people feel guilty that either they, or someone in the horse's past, screwed the horse up. And they feel obligated to help the horse, not out of a personal "fixer personality" mentality but because they feel the horse is owed something by Humanity.

I feel that way too, except that my version of "owed something by Humanity" is "a peaceful and quiet death where they won't be able to hurt themselves, or anyone else, anymore."

You just nailed it. :yes:

I love cats. Have had and loved on many of them. Then there was Smokie. There was just something screwy in that kitten's brain. About 4 months after getting him, I was walking down the hall of our home to go to work. He came flying out from the guestroom and ATTACKED my ankles...claws, teeth and SCREAMING. I kicked him back in the room and closed the door. At the end of the day, he took a one-way trip.

Sorry, but I have no patience for animals that turn on humans. It's like a dog that gets a taste for chickens or other farm-yard animals. You're not going to break them of it....ever. No matter how loving the animal CAN be...at times...it's not worth it in the end.

Naturally, I love horses too. But if I owned one that turned on me or anyone else as MCS's boy has done, the call would be made or the weapon procured. Just as the barn manager at Thomas' School on LI did the day "Gentleman Jim" caught that little girl by the arm. She didn't think "Oh, maybe he just needs another trainer. Maybe I need to turn him out. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Nope, the vet was tracked down, the pink juice drawn up and the hole dug....within the hour.

[tinah]

I have encountered 2 truly "bad" horses. One I think was born that way, they other I suspect was made that way by humans. With the first, he was flat out dangerous, and was kept by his owner because he was possibly the most talented jumper I've ever met in real life. The only person that he did not try to hurt was my (non-horsey, although in this case I don't think it matters) mother. He was extremely affectionate towards her, and would follow her around like a dog, let her in his stall while he was lying down, groom her, whicker when she came into the barn, etc. Anyone else, including the owner, he would go for. And I'm talking slam up against the stall wall and start cow-kicking and biting. Normally took two or three people to tack up, since he would go for whoever was closest to teeth or hooves. I don't know what happened to him. . . .
The other was a confirmed rear-er. Repeatedly. He flipped over backwards with two people, and wasn't above ramming into tree at a full gallop if rearing didn't work. He was eventually shot, since his owner died and the family couldn't guarantee a non-riding home for life.
Life is short. My own take is that you shouldn't make it shorter with a known bad horse. There are too many good ones out there.

[Dazednconfused]

I've been out all day and have not read the referenced thread except the clip of the first OP post

soooooo....having bred enough livestock in my life...furred, feathered and hairy let me say that poor behavior has an absolute base in genetics...

not to say that wonderful genetics can't be screwed up;) they can and quick...but nasty begets nasty and animals do not have a right to exist and cause potential harm to humans...not every one will share that un romantic view...

best

I couldn't agree more. There are definitely genetic components. Not always (the three I refer to were completely unrelated but of the same breed). Horse A had a pedigree with horses of good dispositions and I believe he was an anomaly of otherwise very good minded sorts. Horse B definitely came from more difficult lines, and his atrocious temperament was a magnification of that. Horse C had horribly-minded horses throughout his pedigree, but particularly through the sire and sire's full brother.

I guess part of the reason I ask is because a lot of these types of horses (including all three of the bad sorts I've worked with) were boarded. If you keep your dangerous horse at home, I guess that's your business (although it still begs the question of how horrified your family would be if you were maimed and killed by one of these critters). I find it completely irresponsible to put others at risk though. Even if nobody has to go into the stall or pasture for day to day work - what if there's an emergency situation or the horse is hurt? Then you are risking your staff, and that isn't right, in my opinion.

Even the ones who may not be truly bad but have some sort of physical issue that causes them to act out in dangerous ways - putting other humans at risk just seems so wrong to me.

Another question that's occurred to me. I've known a lot of people who have put down aggressive dogs (the liability issue being a rather big reason I am sure). Well, I shouldn't say a lot of people, but a heck of a lot more than have put down aggressive horses. Why do aggressive horses get a free pass? Predator vs. prey? Because if you had a dog - that weighs 1/5th of what a horse does at *max*, even if they have teeth - that did some of the things I have seen aggressive horses do - there would be absolutely NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER that the dog would be euthanized...

[ddashaq]

Awesome post, jn4jenny! I completely agree.

Personally, I would not even bother sending one that was truely violent and aggressive to a trainer. There is not a horse talented enough to cause me to want have someone else's blood on my hands if that trainer got hurt.

I have known one completely bad horse and he was sent down the road with great haste. I don't know if he was born that way or if someone mishandled him, but he was a complete psycho.

[Tif_Ann]

I think part of it is everyone has a different level of tolerance, for whatever reason. And some of us just like the problem horses (I have that problem with dogs and men too - which is why I'm single!! I like the sh*theads, but don't put up with their behavior. Dogs and horses learn, men, not so much!)

The other part, like in the previous post, is it's especially hard to give up on a horse when you've had success with other problem horses. I feel for the OP in that thread, I really do, because once that fear sets in I don't know if you can get past it to do what the horse absolutely needs - or if its better to just euthanize.

In my experience I have worked with multiple problem horses, but there's only ONE that I personally have given up on. She is one of my mom's horses. The history we were given is that she was a great trail horse, sweet, etc... then on a long trail ride developed a nasty saddle sore and bucked her owner off when he tried to mount. Put him in the ICU with brain damage. She was put to pasture for a year and about to go to auction when my mother bought her. Since then, she is a bucker. She spent several months with my sister at William Woods University, bucked her off into a wall and gave her a concussion, and I believe bucked off someone else there too. She's explosive and bucks without warning. She has spent three months with a trainer and respects him a great deal but when he's not around or it's another rider, guess what? BUCK! Not everytime, but enough. She's a rodeo type bucker, bucks and spins. My mother has resorted to a "No Buck Trainer" gizmo and it works - though now she's learning to rear instead. She can't put her head down to buck, so UP she goes. And she ENJOYS it. That's the line for me - in my opinion she's unable to be rehabbed and should not be written. She is capable of being a companion horse and is broke to drive - she's a good girl on the ground. She just shouldn't be ridden. We've since been told that her full brother is very similar personality wise and bucks, as did her sire. But they are absolutely beautiful and conformationally correct registered paints... so people keep breeding them.

I ride a mustang who my trainer has said is the most difficult horse she's ever worked with. But he doesn't have a mean bone in his body. I've accepted that he's not for everyone and know that 95% of the people out there would have passed him up - and did - and written him off as untrainable. But because of my personality and because I could - I had no show aspirations, nothing like that, so had the time and patience to deal with him - we've come a long way. I've passed on similar horses that have been offered to me however, because now that I have him and my second horse I know I don't have the time or energy to give another horse like him the bond he needs to thrive.

Not every horse is for everybody. And it's always easier to be on the outside looking in and saying what YOU would do. We all have different tolerances. My sister absolutely had no tolerance for my mustang and recognized it - that's how I got him. Conversely, she's willing to work with my mom's horse and her TB has behaviors that I wouldn't have tolerance for. So it really boils down to personality off both horse and person.

[myhorsefaith]

I've been struggling with this very thng.

I have a mare i got off a feedlot a few years ago, at age 6. was able to trace back her history, and found out that she was used in mexican rodeo.

the mare, in the 4 years i've owned her, has made magnificent strides to normalcy. she is not mean, she will never try to attack you- quite the opposite actually. she is by nature scared most of the time. we've gone through tons of training, and i even got her to the point of being able to go to a dressage trainer.

problem 1: mare is not sound when put in work.
problem 2: mare is 100% normal- open, willing to learn, gentle, and can work with others 99% of the time. then there is the 1% where she loses it- its like she forgets everything that was ever taught to her and she has to GET OUT NOW...run now think later. and that type of set back will then set her back for weeks and months- all of a sudden she's a cautious of everything.

I dont mind working with a fearful horse- in fact i have a couple of those. but hers is so odd- it just happens at the weirdest times- lights on lights off type switch.

a couple of weeks ago her fear response was triggered- barn manager went into her stall like she has done every morning for years to go put her halter on to bring her to turn out pasture. this is routine. My mare lowers her head, and as halter is going on (same one she's had for four years now), completely freaks out and ends up bending barn managers fingers back.

To me, i'm lucky that it was just her fingers- what happens if that horse in her fear did something worse?

we've gone through all the vetting- there is nothing, aside from that lameness, that is physically wrong with this horse except the lameness.

so even if i can get her sound, i'm wondering if i can trust her to under saddle. 99% of the time she's fine...but what happens if i'm riding and this same thing happens?

i dont have a place of my own, and i do have to board. multiple people handle this mare, and 99% of the time she's basically sleep walking to and fro her stall- easiest to handle in the world. but what about that 1%?

She's only 9. so i have years of this- just caring for her, and hoping she doesnt hurt anyone. on the one hand i think it is irresponsible to keep her alive. on the other- she didnt ask for this, she's otherwise quite healthy...so do i really have a right to put her down? she has come along so far from when i first got her,its such a shame to know that she'll never be 100% trustworthy.

neither decision feels right.

[SuperSTB]

I could not personally deal with a horse with significant mental issues. Not that I can't but rather I choose not too.

I had someone ask me once to work with their mare- I did 2 sessions with her and said "nope". She wasn't a 'psycho' but she lacked much in the way of basic ground training at that point, I wasn't getting paid, and current owner wasn't willing to invest in vet expertise to rule out some of the mare's more annoying issues. I'm sure I was labeled as 'not competent/experienced enough' to 'handle her' but I really don't care because- well- I wasn't getting paid :D

If the horse is truly dangerous... ie.. been around the equine block of various trainers and owners a few times, still has dangerous issues, than euthanasia is probably best.

But I'd be suspect of an owner who hadn't really put in the effort (unlike op here) to rule of possible causes or invested in the right training- wanting to put a horse down because it's 'dangerous'. I've seen some real stupid owners dump some lovely horses at auction because they were dingbats and shouldn't even own a rocking horse let alone a real one.

[SuperSTB]

I've been struggling with this very thng.

I have a mare i got off a feedlot a few years ago, at age 6. was able to trace back her history, and found out that she was used in mexican rodeo.

the mare, in the 4 years i've owned her, has made magnificent strides to normalcy. she is not mean, she will never try to attack you- quite the opposite actually. she is by nature scared most of the time. we've gone through tons of training, and i even got her to the point of being able to go to a dressage trainer.

problem 1: mare is not sound when put in work.
problem 2: mare is 100% normal- open, willing to learn, gentle, and can work with others 99% of the time. then there is the 1% where she loses it- its like she forgets everything that was ever taught to her and she has to GET OUT NOW...run now think later. and that type of set back will then set her back for weeks and months- all of a sudden she's a cautious of everything.

I dont mind working with a fearful horse- in fact i have a couple of those. but hers is so odd- it just happens at the weirdest times- lights on lights off type switch.

a couple of weeks ago her fear response was triggered- barn manager went into her stall like she has done every morning for years to go put her halter on to bring her to turn out pasture. this is routine. My mare lowers her head, and as halter is going on (same one she's had for four years now), completely freaks out and ends up bending barn managers fingers back.

To me, i'm lucky that it was just her fingers- what happens if that horse in her fear did something worse?

we've gone through all the vetting- there is nothing, aside from that lameness, that is physically wrong with this horse except the lameness.

so even if i can get her sound, i'm wondering if i can trust her to under saddle. 99% of the time she's fine...but what happens if i'm riding and this same thing happens?

i dont have a place of my own, and i do have to board. multiple people handle this mare, and 99% of the time she's basically sleep walking to and fro her stall- easiest to handle in the world. but what about that 1%?

She's only 9. so i have years of this- just caring for her, and hoping she doesnt hurt anyone. on the one hand i think it is irresponsible to keep her alive. on the other- she didnt ask for this, she's otherwise quite healthy...so do i really have a right to put her down? she has come along so far from when i first got her,its such a shame to know that she'll never be 100% trustworthy.

neither decision feels right.

That is such a tough situation!!! Euthanizing isn't such a easy decision- it is a very emotionally taxing one!

[Daydream Believer]

I agree that jenny's post was outstanding and very well said. Pretty much my sentiments also and I think at one point I thought I could "fix" nearly any horse...but I have met my match now..and am the wiser for it. I also think some of that realization comes with age and experience....at least it did with me.

It does take a lot of courage and honesty to give up on a horse and to admit failure...that is a hard hard thing to do. I was there not long ago with a ranch raised horse I bought as a coming three year old who'd had very little handling before I got him shipped here. He had a wicked bolt in him and when he went 0 to 60 mph in 2 seconds, there is no one in the world that could hold him...God Knows I tried everything on this horse. He would go through and over top of anything and anyone in his path...very dangerous behavior. I found out that his half brother by the same stallion shows the same behavior also...so I do think there was some inborn or genetic tendency in that bloodline.

I monkeyed with this horse for 3 years trying to figure out how to fix his bolting problem....I never did. I got him somewhat better in general with his fearful behavior until I could lead him most places....usually with him following warily and unreliably, desensitized him to everything, loaded him, and even rode him...but with no warning at all at some point when you had him in hand, he'd bolt and he was gone and you were counting fingers and wondering where he'd end up. I felt like he'd never be safe as a riding horse with such a problem if he was that difficult on the ground and flat refused to sell him several times that I had inquiries...he is a very attractive horse.

After one day that he did this and nearly trampled my working student who was leading his pasture companion in... I had decided to euthanize him. I will not under any circumstances sell a horse like that knowing it will most likely end up at slaughter or worse...hurting an unsuspecting person who would buy him.

At the last minute, a home was found where he can be a pasture ornament the rest of his life and with someone very capable of working with him who never cares if he does anything. I just could not afford to keep such a horse around a public stable like I run. I hauled this horse several hundred miles for free to see him to this home...probably a very dumb business decision but at least I felt like I did all I could.

I did run into some folks who felt like at all costs I should rehab him. Many suggested more ground work, more physical diagnosis (I had already had him checked over) and one cowboy type suggested tying him to a post for a few weeks and sacking him out with everything...well...all that advice was appreciated but I am not going to do anything cruel or abusive to train a horse just so I can say I "won" over an animal.

Anyway...I do believe such horses are sometimes born that way or with tendencies like that that can be mitigated with good handling or brought out to their worst. Live and learn, lick your wounds and your heart does mend eventually....but in the end it is OK to give up and move on.

[BuddyRoo]

Well...JN4 nailed most of the reasons I could think of between her two posts.

I would go pretty far with a nasty horse if I felt it was still within reason, but if I don't think euthanasia is a bad choice.

So here's one last reason....the guilt trips and flaming that often ensue when someone tells people that they plan to euth. Other people tend to step up thinking THEY can make it right or some super duper trainer can make it right if only mean, nasty, current owner (who has exhausted his/her options) would hand over the horse and let them give it a shot. And sometimes...that's enough pressure to hang on.

[Bluey]

Well...JN4 nailed most of the reasons I could think of between her two posts.

I would go pretty far with a nasty horse if I felt it was still within reason, but if I don't think euthanasia is a bad choice.

So here's one last reason....the guilt trips and flaming that often ensue when someone tells people that they plan to euth. Other people tend to step up thinking THEY can make it right or some super duper trainer can make it right if only mean, nasty, current owner (who has exhausted his/her options) would hand over the horse and let them give it a shot. And sometimes...that's enough pressure to hang on.

And some like the drama, even if it is a very sad situation.

I wonder why so many women stay in abusive relationships?
I consider trying to keep going with a horse that is beating us and others down an abusive relationship.

We have turned a few really bad actors around, but there are a few more we didn't even try, took the horse's words for how it was at heart and let him go.

One, after 2 1/2 years, made a good cart horse, but he never became an easy horse to handle or much less ride, we always had to watch him.
He also didn't care for horses, he just was antisocial, the kind that, if he was a person, would have ended up blowing someone and in jail for the rest of his life.

Doesn't make sense to keep trying with such horses, but sometimes we just do, because the alternative is what...

[hopashore1]

One other reason:

Sometimes people have invested so much energy and time and money into a horse, they don't want that to be a "waste."

It's hard to spend thousands on vet bills, board, etc. on a horse who's dangerous problems were attributed to a physical cause. When that doesn't turn out to be the case, you're out that much money. Kind of like having a lemon car--people will keep sinking money into something they've already spent a lot on, even once the amount they've spent is past the object's worth.

[buck22]

Before I say anything, let me say that my one and only "owned" horse is a delightful fellow. If I owned a monster of the type described in that link, I would either pay out the nose to send it to a top-notch cowboy trainer (with full disclosure of the issues) or have it euthed.

But here's some reasons I've seen for why people keep these horses:

1. They are "fixer" personalities. A lot of women project their own insecurities onto others by trying to "fix", expecting a psychological buzz when/if the "fix" works. I know lots of women who do it with husbands. Some women choose to do it with horses. Some women choose to do it with really crazy horses.

2. Some people have either not had the pleasure of having a "normal" horse in their life and thus don't know how much they're really suffering. Again, compare this to a woman who's only ever been in abusive relationships with men. She may be unable to conceptualize anything better even though it's obvious to the rest of us.

3. There is a tradeoff that the owner considers "due payment" for the horse's insanity. For example, maybe the horse is a schoolmaster under saddle at a very high level. I wouldn't trade complete insanity for this, but some people would.

4. Some people continue to believe that they'll find a magical cure that will take it all away. And sometimes they do--ulcers, kissing spine, very difficult-to-diagnose soft tissue injuries, a year off, etc. I also don't think we've reached the pinnacle of veterinary medicine yet. I have met people whose horses were absolute wackadoos until they pursued some kind of alternative therapy. Don't ask me why some horse would go from psychotic to angelic because of a mineral imbalance, but I have seen it with my own eyes. Some people hold out hope for a cure against all odds.

5. Some people don't believe in "disposable" horses. Again, let me repeat that I am not saying that on a soapbox; if I had such a horse I would euth it. But some people feel that you wouldn't dispose of a human being even if they were deeply mentally and physically ill, so they wouldn't do it with an animal either.

6. Some people got crappy advice from a fellow horse friend or professional, and/or a string of such professionals, that the horse could be saved with X/Y/Z treatment or training program. This is usually financially beneficial for the pro and of no use to the owner.

7. Some people are just stupid, and you can't fix stupid.

interesting ideas, and I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that fit the bill, but imho, its a little bit pigeon holing.

I personally like horses that others have given up on. I'm not the mothering type, I'm not a bleeding heart, I'm not against euth, I'm not a dare devil, I don't want to save the world, I don't want to fix everything (I really could care less what the rest of the world is up to :lol:) I don't want to go charging around on my 'rescue' horse and show the world how fabulous I am. I don't show, I don't compete, I don't have olympic aspirations, I'm social but its not my reason for having horses. I'm not superwoman, but I'm not a weak woman that hangs around abusive men, or wishes daddy loved me more, or have to prove something.

I am honestly intrigued by their personalities. I am honestly awed at how simple yet deep instinct can be and how hard it is for a person to see past themselves to see how a horse really thinks. And I am honestly and truly humbled by the enormous capacity of forgiveness horses have.

Difficult horses have so much to share. Working with a difficult horse reveals so much about yourself. Horses really truly are mirrors. I find that absolutely astounding. There is so much, and yet it is all so simple when you finally figure it out. I am never bored or exhausted by this.

My experience is admittedly limited, horses aren't a living for me and I came to horses as an adult, so I guess I just haven't experienced a truly rank horse yet. I guess because I also am just a pleasure owner, and not serious in a discipline, etc, that I have no schedule or timetable to keep, so to me, a horse that is coming along slowly doesn't bother me or frustrate me.

I have no problem with the idea of euthing a dangerous horse, even one that may have had a chance elsewhere. Putting an animal to sleep is one of the kindest acts we can do. You need the right environment to work on an animal like that, and thats really hard to find if you don't own your own property. Its not fair to subject others to having to deal with difficult animal, and its not fair to the animal either.

But, I will say that I don't believe any animal is disposable either, I believe these problems are man-made, whether the animal was ruined through handling or ruined from birth, the animal exists in our barns and behind our fences because we put it there, one way or the other. So perhaps you could call me a bleeding heart as I do feel a personal sense of moral obligation, that they're owed a chance if possible, but, nobody can save them all and I don't go around collecting horses or preaching or anything. I don't have the answers, and don't pretend to, or care to. This my own personal little journey, and as long as my horses are healthy and well cared for, and I'm safe and respectful, I really don't care what anyone thinks :lol:

I will say, though I've ridden around on made horses, and know the joys of just saddling up and going without any cares, and thats really fun and thrilling and all, I've never owned a made horse, or a one that wasn't trouble at one point.... so perhaps there really is an entire world of experiences out there that I'm totally clueless about.

But in the same token, when you partner up with an animal that doesn't trust, and then he makes the decision to trust, its incredibly special, and it gives me and my horse the 'conquer the world' feeling, and thats really cool, like we could do anything and everything together. Its very special in an intimate and indescribable way.

The reason I own horses is because I'm captivated by their personalities, and the difficult ones generally are the smart and sensitive ones and that just makes it all the more rich a relationship.

maybe i'm nuts, or stupid :lol:

[Dazednconfused]

One other reason:

Sometimes people have invested so much energy and time and money into a horse, they don't want that to be a "waste."

It's hard to spend thousands on vet bills, board, etc. on a horse who's dangerous problems were attributed to a physical cause. When that doesn't turn out to be the case, you're out that much money. Kind of like having a lemon car--people will keep sinking money into something they've already spent a lot on, even once the amount they've spent is past the object's worth.

But is that ever worth someone's *life*??

Maybe I'm being overly dramatic here. I don't know. Realistically speaking though, the cost of rehabbing, training, boarding, vet bills etc could never come close to what it could cost you in a lawsuit should the horse hurt someone considering the litigious society we live in...

There are so many good horses, life is too short, IMO!

[bort84]

I honestly had never heard of so many people supporting euthing a bad horse until I came on this board. I think it's because I grew up shadowing my grandmother, who is a horse trainer that often got the very rogues you are talking about in training and successfully fixed the vast majority of them - especially when she was younger and had kids to feed (you often don't get to pick and choose your charges as an up and coming horse trainer, haha).

She had one arab that actually came close to killing somebody or maybe did (I can't remember if it was a nasty trick while on riding or something else) and hated people of all shapes and sizes. He was completely and absolutely rehabbed and eventually found a forever home with kids where he was a total gem. Many can have their "switches" flipped back.

Again, until recently, I had never really considered putting a horse down for being bad because I've seen many fixed. Granted, I do now see the wisdom in doing so if you don't have the resources to fix and keep one or if you do not know of a pro who can actually do the fixing - it keeps them from sliding down that slippery slope into very bad hands and a much worse existance than none at all. I also realize that many pros aren't all that great, and those that are really well known don't usually have the time or financial need to deal with the rogues. Those that will and can successfully deal with the bad boys are sometimes very hard to find.

So I can see both sides of the story, and I have personally known several who were downright vicous to handle that were fixed, and have heard from my grandmother of many many more that were also fixed. I've also seen many riding issues (rearing, bucking, etc) be as fixed a horse can be (most of them will do those things if pushed).

I'm just trying to stick up for those people that opt to not put the horse down because they feel there may be a way to get them back to happy good citizens. Some say life's too short, and I can understand that feeling too. But a LOT of horses are actually fixable, and I've personally seen it done (by a 5'1" generally soft-spoken lady who is not a cowboy-type trainer). So I try to reserve judgment on both sides - I'm not going to condemn you for putting your horse down, but I'm also not going to condemn you from doing everything you can to fix that horse unless you are actively putting others besides yourself and your trainer in danger.

Oh, another point - Though it's not common on this board, there are a LOT of owners out there who don't necessarily have horses to love on them as well as ride them. Some own them specifically for the performance they can give, whether it's racing, showing, or whatever. They leave most things up to the trainer, and have minimal interaction with the horse. Many good pros can handle "rogue" horses, so I guess maybe that's why I had also never considered putting one down, because I'd always been coming at it from a pro viewpoint because that's how I grew up, where resources and skill weren't really an issue. On the other hand, due to the pro upbringing, I can be less emotional about the option to put one down if there really aren't any other feasible alternatives, because there really are so many other fish in the sea that are already good citizens and a joy to be around.

So again, I try to reserve judgment either way because harrassing people for their decisions usually does not help the situation, haha.

[buck22]

wow, I'm a slow typist :) some of the reasons here are truly scary :eek:... because someone has a lot of $$ invested? or feels too guilty to euth? thats really sad... they sound like valid reasons but I hope they're the minority of cases.

No one should ever feel locked into a relationship, horse or human or whatever. If its not fun, and rewarding, then its wrong, imho.

wow, I guess i really am naiive, I never would suspect someone would keep a rank horse because of some of these reasons. but I *have* seen women in abusive human relationships, and it is sad, so sad when the world can see clearly what they cannot.

oh well.

[buck22]

I honestly had never heard of so many people supporting euthing a bad horse until I came on this board. I think it's because I grew up shadowing my grandmother, who is a horse trainer that often got the very rogues you are talking about in training and successfully fixed the vast majority of them - especially when she was younger and had kids to feed (you often don't get to pick and choose your charges as an up and coming horse trainer, haha).

She had one arab that actually came close to killing somebody or maybe did (I can't remember if it was a nasty trick while on riding or something else) and hated people of all shapes and sizes. He was completely and absolutely rehabbed and eventually found a forever home with kids where he was a total gem. Many can have their "switches" flipped back.

Again, until recently, I had never really considered putting a horse down for being bad because I've seen many fixed. Granted, I do now see the wisdom in doing so if you don't have the resources to fix and keep one or if you do not know of a pro who can actually do the fixing - it keeps them from sliding down that slippery slope into very bad hands and a much worse existance than none at all. I also realize that many pros aren't all that great, and those that are really well known don't usually have the time or financial need to deal with the rogues. Those that will and can successfully deal with the bad boys are sometimes very hard to find.

So I can see both sides of the story, and I have personally known several who were downright vicous to handle that were fixed, and have heard from my grandmother of many many more that were also fixed. I've also seen many riding issues (rearing, bucking, etc) be as fixed a horse can be (most of them will do those things if pushed).

I'm just trying to stick up for those people that opt to not put the horse down because they feel there may be a way to get them back to happy good citizens. Some say life's too short, and I can understand that feeling too. But a LOT of horses are actually fixable, and I've personally seen it done (by a 5'1" generally soft-spoken lady who is not a cowboy-type trainer). So I try to reserve judgment on both sides - I'm not going to condemn you for putting your horse down, but I'm also not going to condemn you from doing everything you can to fix that horse unless you are actively putting others besides yourself and your trainer in danger.

Oh, another point - Though it's not common on this board, there are a LOT of owners out there who don't necessarily have horses to love on them as well as ride them. Some own them specifically for the performance they can give, whether it's racing, showing, or whatever. They leave most things up to the trainer, and have minimal interaction with the horse. Many good pros can handle "rogue" horses, so I guess maybe that's why I had also never considered putting one down, because I'd always been coming at it from a pro viewpoint because that's how I grew up, where resources and skill weren't really an issue. On the other hand, due to the pro upbringing, I can be less emotional about the option to put one down if there really aren't any other feasible alternatives, because there really are so many other fish in the sea that are already good citizens and a joy to be around.

So again, I try to reserve judgment either way because harrassing people for their decisions usually does not help the situation, haha.
very very well said.

[Tif_Ann]

buck22 - I wish I knew you in real life. I think we'd be great friends.

I hope that came across right.

[buck22]

thats so sweet :) not misinterpreted :)

[lovehors86]

I have seen people keep and even purposefully breed dangerous horses because of one redeeming quality... whatever that may be...

One breeding farm I worked on kept pairing this one stallion with mare even though the babies came out aggressive, rude, dangerous and excuse me but just plain stupid... However, the babies also came out heavily muscled and were successful in the halter ring, when they weren't trying to cart you off to the next county or bash in your teeth or their own...

It's crazy and I think any horse that is dangerous should be put down, however I didn't put down my rear-er and he turned into a kid's mount... I was never scared of him though and he was never malicious(sp???)... Most horse people keep horses for the fun of it and when it stops being fun there is a problem... Still I think a lot of people don't practice what they preach.

[JohnDeere]

I had one I sent on and I will regret it for the rest of my life. Theres a thread here somewhere about it. He was beautiful and talented but he was with a trainer than is known for trying to be strong er than the horses he rides. They sold him to me and he was fine for months. Then he started trying stuff. He was big enough that he scared me. Then he scared my trainer who tried to get after him. That was the end.

I didnt try everything I could. I just get one now that barely bites at flies but isnt as pretty or talented. My skin & bones will thank me someday Im sure but I wonder about this boy I sent on. Will he find someone who will fix him, will he mow grass somewhere or grow it? Many people told me that isnt my problem and an unsafe horse isnt worth keeping. I agree in a way but theres that 1 in 100 chance that he could have been "fixed".

Its a sick thing, alright, guilt.

[vacation1]

I can't imagine keeping a dangerous horse. Way too big, and way too impossible to maintain safely if he'll actually go after someone in his field, etc. A few hundred dollars and an afternoon, and you have a pretty good pen for a dog that will also work to keep out innocent bystanders, and the dog will still have a pretty good life if you take it out and work with it frequently. Not ideal, but safe. A horse? How can you keep an aggressive horse apart from other people?

I've known a lot of people who have put down aggressive dogs (the liability issue being a rather big reason I am sure). Well, I shouldn't say a lot of people, but a heck of a lot more than have put down aggressive horses. Why do aggressive horses get a free pass?

Dogs sleep with us. Once the owner feels afraid of the dog, the decision gets made pretty fast because the dog is always there in your home. There's no escape. The people who don't euthanize are usually those who aren't afraid of the dog because it goes for strangers. I completely agree with your comment about how the situation changes if you're boarding the dangerous horse, and I think that's relevant here. Many people who euthanize aggressive dogs do it because they see the dog as a direct, immediate threat to their own bloodline - either the dog has threatened their own child, or a lawsuit threatens the family's finances. Most of the time, a threat to other people - child, adult, pets - is not enough. Nasty but true.

But, I will say that I don't believe any animal is disposable either, I believe these problems are man-made, whether the animal was ruined through handling or ruined from birth, the animal exists in our barns and behind our fences because we put it there, one way or the other.

I don't think anyone here thinks animals are disposable, just that realistically, humans come first (if only because we have to stay healthy and sane in order to earn the money to keep our animal overlords in the style to which they've become accustomer;)) and some animals are phenomenal black holes of effort to maintain safely.

[FlashGordon]

I agree that jenny's post was outstanding and very well said. Pretty much my sentiments also and I think at one point I thought I could "fix" nearly any horse...but I have met my match now..and am the wiser for it. I also think some of that realization comes with age and experience....at least it did with me.


Agree with Jn4Jenny, and also with the comment above. A lot of horse people go through a phase where they think they can tackle anything-- I daresay it happens around your late teens and early 20's. ;) And then you get a little wiser......

I kind of like projects and rehabs. It is nice to see a horse go from skinny/lame/sick to fat/happy/useful. WITHIN REASON. And the horse better have a good brain to start with. Yes there is a mind-body connection and a horse that is lame, sore, etc. will have some behavioral issues as a result of the chronic pain. But you can tell which ones are crabby cause they are sore, and which ones are flat out nutcases.

IME the truly dangerous/unpredictable horses become that way through genetics, poor handling/training, and pain. They are just pressure cookers waiting to explode. Mess with one that is truly dangerous and you learn real quick how to distinguish the nutcases from the decent ones. I can smell it a mile away now. The worst are the ones who on a good day are absolutely unbeatable, and on a bad day will literally try to kill you.

And "flipping the switches" back? Doesn't happen, 100%. Not for the really messed up ones. They will always revert back to the behavior when really stressed. They have poor coping skills. And it is hard to instill good coping skills in a horse that has had a decade or more of bad handling, etc.

I think too a lot of horses get passed on because they are not "cuddly." My current horse, for example. Impeccable manners, but just not an in your pocket type. What's wrong with a polite, though standoffish, horse?

Ironically sometimes the really crazy ones are the ones that people like cause they are snuggly. Yeah, snuggling you one minute and trying to pummel you the next. Not sure why that is. Maybe because they have not learned proper boundaries.

Personally, I think far too many horse people stick it out too long with headcase horses. Life is too short. Too many nice ones out there...

[whbar158]

I think that it is great that there are "rehab" type places for some of these horses with people who care and there are people who are happy just to look outside and see their horse. I do believe that many of the problems are man made, just as there are people who are extremely talented in a certain field doesn't mean they want to do it. Some of these horses I hear about are just such good jumpers they try to work through it, but maybe the horse just doesn't want that job? There are horses that like their job even if they aren't talented at it.

I have seen hard and worked with hard to handle and ride horses that have come around. I have got to say though that an over aggressive horse that does not come around after friendly treatment/and or firm but not mean does not need to be around people. When you board you just can't risk it, even if you are out there for feeding and cleaning and no one else is suppose to handle the horse what happens if it get loose and you aren't there?

Also if you ever sell them even if they are "fixed" what if they then sell it and people don't follow the rules for that horse? I see people not follow what the seller has said for a show horse and the horse instantly goes from winning to being bad. One would think if they get a winning horse they would follow the same program that was working?

If I got a horse that was mine for life and turned it around that is fine, but me personally would not tolerate a horse that lunges/charges at people on a regular basis.

[mypaintwattie]

My horse was labeled a difficult, problem horse by some people. She could have the nastiest don't touch or look at me attitude, would get in down and dirty fights with the trainer, just pissy. I knew something had to be wrong, treated her for ulcers, had her teeth done, had a chiropractor and massage therapist work on her, gave her time off from training, and I have a different horse. Her attitude made a complete turnaround and now she acts like a puppy dog. I am so glad that I didn't give up on her when many others may have.

[ambar]

A horse? How can you keep an aggressive horse apart from other people?

Well, the one truly insane and IMO not fixable horse I know lives solo, in a large pen on a private farm. He won't permit anyone to halter him any more, and he doesn't want to leave the pen. You can scratch his withers, maybe, when there's a group of visitors (that's apparently a safer situation, in his mind, than one on one.) Feed comes over the side of the pen and that's that.

No, it's not genetic. I've handled multiple adults by this horse and they are, one and all, sweethearts.

It's !@#% criminal what some human beings can get away with. And by that I mean the big show trainers that left this horse with PTSD.

[spotmenow]

Is it so hard to fathom that sometimes a horse is just simply mean? I mean, there are plenty of plain ol' mean PEOPLE...doesn't it stand to reason that there will the occasional mean HORSE?

I'm not saying stick a needle in every horse that you have a problem with, but it is not inconceivable that a horse may just have a screw loose...I've met hundreds of horses and can think of only one that was nasty with no reason or explanation, but they are out there and let me tell you, if I had owned that little bugger, I'd have dug a hole.

[Cloverbarley]

People tolerate and cope with "difficult" horses in their own unique manner. People's expectations and aspirations are different. People's time constraints, their patience, their experience, their imagination and logical thinkings are individual to them alone. I really don't think anyone can say categorically what sort of people do this, or what sort of people do that; that's just silly stereotyping and is by no means de facto.

I've had horses since I was a tiny child and over the years I have had my share of crazies along with plenty of grounded and sensible ones. I have the time to rehab the crazies and in my whole time with working with horses I only came across 2 that I truly believed were way too far gone to do anything with, however I was proved wrong. One I kept for 16 years till she died. I rode her every day until I decided to retire her when she was 25 years old. She was never a particularly safe or stable-minded horse, however we got along and she liked me. At that time in my life I was in my 20's and 30's and I put up with her because she was mine and I was responsible for her, and I liked her. If I had had her in my childhood she would likely have killed me, if I had her now then I would find no great pleasure in dealing with all her dangerous antics, however at the age I was, worked out for both of us.

The 2nd horse is one I have at present although she is not owned by me. She is here because she was highly unstable and untrustworthy. She has been here for over 3 years. I also felt the same about her as I did about my own mare years ago, in that she had no chance of being rehabbed due to some brain malfunction (IMO). Being attacked by her a few times certainly did nothing to alter this opinion. However ... something happened at some point. I'm not sure what happened, or why, but she is a different horse altogether now. I backed her and I'm riding her and she hasn't done anything dangerous or aggressive at all in about a year. I am aware that I have to keep her away from people because knowing her personality, I agree with another poster, I think she could easily revert to how she previously was. That is not a problem for me to keep her with my own horses though.

I think a lot depends on your situation. I can easily tolerate certain issues because I own my property and have at my disposal many options available to me. I have been in this industry for long enough to know that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and thankfully I have the wherewithall to be able to use whatever means brings a positive end result, even if that end result may not be what you imagined when you first set out on this journey.

[jherold]

I have a difficult mare. I discussed euthanasia with my vet's technician (we're also friends). I did a battery of test to make sure it wasn't physical and worked with a friend who does Natural Horsmanship stuff. (No, I didn't drink to koolaid, but some of the techniques are helpful for dealing with a dominant mare and are a nice option to just regularly beating the crap out of her).

My reasons for working on the problem?

1. I bred her. I'm totally responsible for her being here. My mistakes helped to create the monster, so to speak.
2. She's an awsome ride. She will actually catch me before I fall off and if I do fall off she stays right with me.
3. Doesn't need shoes or blankets and fits my "rough" outside horse keeping arrangement without hurting herself.
4. She lives at my farm. I am her sole caretaker. There are no children on the farm to be injured by her.
5. I don't have the money to replace her with a kinder horse of similar quality.

If I had to board her, I would have euthanized her. She is too smart and has figured out that she can scare people.

She was born on my farm and will die on my farm. Whether that is sooner or later is entirely dependent on her behavior. If I ever become frightened of her, I will euthanize her.

[threedogpack]

"why do people put up with horses like that?"

I don't, I wouldn't.

[jn4jenny]

Difficult horses have so much to share. Working with a difficult horse reveals so much about yourself. Horses really truly are mirrors. I find that absolutely astounding. There is so much, and yet it is all so simple when you finally figure it out. I am never bored or exhausted by this.

But the thread is not asking about horses that are simply "difficult". It's asking about horses that are a danger to themselves and others.

I have no problem with the idea of euthing a dangerous horse, even one that may have had a chance elsewhere. Putting an animal to sleep is one of the kindest acts we can do. You need the right environment to work on an animal like that, and thats really hard to find if you don't own your own property. Its not fair to subject others to having to deal with difficult animal, and its not fair to the animal either.

Great, then so far nobody on the thread fundamentally disagrees. ;)

[PNWjumper]

I think it's been mentioned a few times, but some people put up with dangerous horses because they're incredible athletes of some sort or another. And often times the "dangerous" aspect of the personality is due to some sort of handling or living condition that exacerbates it.

I've had a couple who were labeled "unfixable" and the next stop was the "euth wagon." One mare was labeled dangerous and the trainer at the barn she was at warned me that she needed to be destroyed because she was going to hurt someone. Funny thing, she's now my AO Jumper mare and one of the animals that I trust the most from a lifetime in horses. She was in a horrible situation (no turnout, no exercise to speak of, pulled out once a day by a timid kid who was afraid of her and expected to go around like a schoolmaster--which she definitely was not!), and reacting to her environment. She is seriously the most down-to-earth, intelligent, and sensible mares I have ever owned. She packs me around the big jumps, packs my children around on pony rides and has never offered even the slightest unexpected reaction.

So I guess my point is that some of us have learned that an awful lot of people in the horse world don't know enough about their horses to make a call like "dangerous" or "unfixable." And without exception, every "dangerous" horse I've ever picked up has been 100% redeemable. That's not to say that a truly dangerous horse can always be fixed.....just that the horses that are openly labeled as dangerous often aren't.

I have owned a couple of horses I evenutally gave up on. In the first case, ironically, the seller represented him as "a little anxious but really a good egg." Ummm, guess I won't listen to that horse broker ever again! :lol: The horse was a NUT CASE under saddle. Something about a person on his back flipped a switch that could not be undone. He was a tremendous athlete and had moments of brilliance, but ALWAYS reverted back to nutcase status. After spending 2 years working with him daily, I gave up and sent him to a phenomenal natural-type horse trainer (who would kill me for labeling him that way, btw). He worked with him for 60 days and said that he'd never come across a horse that bad in his 40 years of working with "problem horses." I eventually gave him away to a gal who wanted a project horse for ground work type work. The horse was a saint on the ground and as mellow as they come. I wouldn't be surprised if the horse had a kissing-spine type issue (though lots of vet work-ups seemed to rule it out over the years).

Anyhow, that brings me to another point. Not all "dangerous horses" are dangerous all of the time. It's never really *that* black and white (okay, sometimes it is, and I'm all for euthing in that case). Sometimes the horse only offers the behavior on occaision, and sometimes it's brought out by conditions that may not be avoidable, but are predictable. I've had horses who showed moments of brilliance (such as the horse above) that promised to eclipse the talent and scope of the best horses I've owned in my life. It's a gamble, and sometimes it pays off with a horse that can make it to the top of the show world but just has to be handled by experienced people.

And finally, there's always the money side of things. I've seen it happen more times than I can count. Owner spends thousands of $s trying to fix horse and then wants to recoup at least some of that cost by selling the horse. Kind of puts the owner in a no-win financial situation. Can't sell the dangerous horse, and can't get a new horse without getting the money from selling the first. And then there are a LOT of people out there who refuse to recognize that getting rid of horse very well may be the cheapest option available. Hell, it was hard for me to give away my very-talented-but-very-neurotic horse. Realizing that you need to just cut your losses is not an easy point to recognize when you're in the situation.

[Dazednconfused]

But the thread is not asking about horses that are simply "difficult". It's asking about horses that are a danger to themselves and others.



Great, then so far nobody on the thread fundamentally disagrees. ;)

I agree and I think there may be a difference in experience here. Again, I am not referring to the difficult horse or one that needs a different kind of training. I suspect those of us experienced enough to have seen a horse truly go after someone or had it happen to us may have a vastly different perspective than others who had a difficult one and trained/worked with them to be better, or one who was abused etc.

[Cloverbarley]

Or different terminology perhaps.

Vicious, aggressive, rearer, bolter, biter, attacker, kicker = "difficult" horses in my book. When you start labelling the horse as a specific whatever, I believe it is a hindrance. "Difficult horse" is label enough.

[LauraKY]

Well, the one truly insane and IMO not fixable horse I know lives solo, in a large pen on a private farm. He won't permit anyone to halter him any more, and he doesn't want to leave the pen. You can scratch his withers, maybe, when there's a group of visitors (that's apparently a safer situation, in his mind, than one on one.) Feed comes over the side of the pen and that's that.

No, it's not genetic. I've handled multiple adults by this horse and they are, one and all, sweethearts.

It's !@#% criminal what some human beings can get away with. And by that I mean the big show trainers that left this horse with PTSD.

How does he get farrier care, vaccinations and worming? Sounds like poor horse management if not able to give the basic requirements.

[Timex]

As a pro, I can forgive a lot of things, and work through them. Fear, pain and ignorance? No problem, I can understand those things. Mean, nasty and wanting to hurt, if not kill me? Nope, no thanks, buh-bye. I might be a pro, but my ultimate first responsibility is to my kid to stay alive and in 1 piece. I'm not too proud to say that I don't want a piece of a critter that is only out to get me hurt, for no good reason. No horse is worth a person getting hurt over. Difficult horses? They're fun. But there's a big difference between a difficult horse and one who doesn't care whether or not you're still breathing at the end of the day...

[HungarianHippo]

Forgive me if this has been said, or something close to it, but: let's face it, aren't we all constantly evaluating each other's expertise/credibility? Dismissing the input from posters who seem less experienced than us, tuning in to people whose posts ring true (for us)? There are sooo many different levels of experience, confidence, and competence with horses. But within each level of competence, we're very firm in the conviction that we know what we're doing. Meanwhile the next "level up" rolls their collective eyes at the problem-- and probably thinks "They just don't know what they're doing. I could have fixed that problem."
Hell, I did it-- bought my Hungarian Hippo super cheap because he was labeled by his owner as a dangerous horse who tried to kill someone. My decision to purchase was in part based on my instant assessment of this owner as a timid, frightened, and inexperienced horseperson. I have no doubt she thought all that stuff was true, but he turned out to be a wonderful, gentle, super great horse. But this is a conveniently self-flattering to think this way, isn't it. Horse boards like this are full of these self-rewarding stories: they wrote him off, but I saved him.

Don't have some big ringing conclusion to make I guess. So much of the problem is that a big part of our ego is tied up in "saving" these horses, and conversely our ego is damaged by giving up--it is an admission that we weren't good enough to save them. And the inability to know what part of the failure is our own inexperience, and what part is inherent in the horse. We don't know what we don't know, ya know? ; )

[ambar]

How does he get farrier care, vaccinations and worming? Sounds like poor horse management if not able to give the basic requirements.

Simply put, he doesn't. You can't get near him with a needle. At one point his condition was iffy enough that there was a consultation with the nearby vet hospital about using the kind of tranq gun one uses on wild equids, and they flatly refused (I think fear of liability). Condition has improved, I think just with a change in diet.

NB, this is not my horse. 99 of 100 people would have put this horse down by now, especially once he became sterile. Why is he still here? Your guess is probably as good as mine.

[murphyluv]

Forgive me if this has been said, or something close to it, but: let's face it, aren't we all constantly evaluating each other's expertise/credibility? Dismissing the input from posters who seem less experienced than us, tuning in to people whose posts ring true (for us)? There are sooo many different levels of experience, confidence, and competence with horses. But within each level of competence, we're very firm in the conviction that we know what we're doing. Meanwhile the next "level up" rolls their collective eyes at the problem-- and probably thinks "They just don't know what they're doing. I could have fixed that problem."
Hell, I did it-- bought my Hungarian Hippo super cheap because he was labeled by his owner as a dangerous horse who tried to kill someone. My decision to purchase was in part based on my instant assessment of this owner as a timid, frightened, and inexperienced horseperson. I have no doubt she thought all that stuff was true, but he turned out to be a wonderful, gentle, super great horse. But this is a conveniently self-flattering to think this way, isn't it. Horse boards like this are full of these self-rewarding stories: they wrote him off, but I saved him.

Don't have some big ringing conclusion to make I guess. So much of the problem is that a big part of our ego is tied up in "saving" these horses, and conversely our ego is damaged by giving up--it is an admission that we weren't good enough to save them. And the inability to know what part of the failure is our own inexperience, and what part is inherent in the horse. We don't know what we don't know, ya know? ; )


hit the nail on the head- I think a lot of people also have different ideas of "dangerous" vs. "difficult". The reasons for being difficult or dangerous vary, but it's still the same-- a horse that is spooky, high-strung, vs a horse that is out to get you??? But someone with "more" experience might say that it is the current owner's fault. I think in the case of the original thread, it seems the OP really has tried everything- she may have waaay more experience than most of the people on this board (obviously i am including myself) and yet there are people that are quite positive the horse can be changed...

[Hip]

Before I say anything, let me say that my one and only "owned" horse is a delightful fellow. If I owned a monster of the type described in that link, I would either pay out the nose to send it to a top-notch cowboy trainer (with full disclosure of the issues) or have it euthed.

But here's some reasons I've seen for why people keep these horses:

1. They are "fixer" personalities. A lot of women project their own insecurities onto others by trying to "fix", expecting a psychological buzz when/if the "fix" works. I know lots of women who do it with husbands. Some women choose to do it with horses. Some women choose to do it with really crazy horses.

2. Some people have either not had the pleasure of having a "normal" horse in their life and thus don't know how much they're really suffering. Again, compare this to a woman who's only ever been in abusive relationships with men. She may be unable to conceptualize anything better even though it's obvious to the rest of us.

3. There is a tradeoff that the owner considers "due payment" for the horse's insanity. For example, maybe the horse is a schoolmaster under saddle at a very high level. I wouldn't trade complete insanity for this, but some people would.

4. Some people continue to believe that they'll find a magical cure that will take it all away. And sometimes they do--ulcers, kissing spine, very difficult-to-diagnose soft tissue injuries, a year off, etc. I also don't think we've reached the pinnacle of veterinary medicine yet. I have met people whose horses were absolute wackadoos until they pursued some kind of alternative therapy. Don't ask me why some horse would go from psychotic to angelic because of a mineral imbalance, but I have seen it with my own eyes. Some people hold out hope for a cure against all odds.

5. Some people don't believe in "disposable" horses. Again, let me repeat that I am not saying that on a soapbox; if I had such a horse I would euth it. But some people feel that you wouldn't dispose of a human being even if they were deeply mentally and physically ill, so they wouldn't do it with an animal either.

6. Some people got crappy advice from a fellow horse friend or professional, and/or a string of such professionals, that the horse could be saved with X/Y/Z treatment or training program. This is usually financially beneficial for the pro and of no use to the owner.

7. Some people are just stupid, and you can't fix stupid.

Oh, yeah, times two!!

Actually, there were some more quotes I wanted to add but don't know how to do them here, I'm computer challenged a lot of the time. :yes:

Hancock horses can be difficult but if you want REALLY difficult, try the Grey Badger horses. The first 1/2 mile of a ride is truly interesting but they are great ranch horses, just not lovey-dovey. By this time, the lines are getting pretty diluted but something about the line just keeps on keeping on. :eek:

As someone who has had horses for over 5 decades, I've owned literally hundreds of horses and have found that about 3% have a screw loose "naturally". This isn't scientific, of course, but my experiences. When we would get one that is loony, he's gone in a NY minute, as soon as we figure out he IS loony. But there have been plenty of difficult horses and we learned much from them. It was actually nice to be able to read a horse and get them to do what we wanted and get that nice partner for life/riding. Actually, I've found that the slightly difficult ones tend to give more to you and not just happy to be on the planet. They want to DO.

But, as I've gotten older, my family has had to 'intervene' a bit and get me to buy milder/tamer horses. Someone in my family told me to quit buying horses like I was 20 yrs younger. Honestly, it took some sit-down times to realize what I was doing!! Serious cowgirling days are OVER!! That's a hard one to stomach. :(

So, now, I aim for the not-much-of-a-challenge type horses and it's really nice to able to be around the horse(s) without worrying about getting kicked or ran over or....

I'm for euthing if you figure out the horse is aiming to harm or kill you, no reason in my mind for him/her to stick around for an unsuspecting victim.

[matryoshka]

I think some people are too inexperienced to realize a particular horse is dangerous. They miss the signals that a horse is serious. It isn't exactly stupidity, just ignorance. It becomes stupidity when experienced horse people point out the seriousness of the situation and get brushed off.

IME, 3% is about right for horses simply being wired wrong. The majority of behavioral problems are man-made, but there are some horses who are screwy from birth. I've seen a few of these. Even if the problem is man-made, we still have a responsibility to not allow the horse to hurt anybody.

[twofatponies]

I am a bit of a wimp I guess. I have friends and acquaintances with horses that are by no means "dangerous" in a killer-horse sense, but sure aren't much fun to ride. Mostly it's just a lack of consistent training or confidence on the part of the owner, combined with a somewhat unsuitable (too green, too sensitive, etc.) horse. Me, I'm aiming to stick with unflappable ranch-broke type horses under 15.2 hh in my future! I'm a big fan of my steady, brave Morgan mare right now! :D

My older mare (first horse I ever owned) is a bit of a cretin on the ground. Mareish, ticklish, girthy, fussy about all kinds of things. But she knows the rules, and quits messing around with a verbal scolding. I've had her a long time, and she and my husband have a wonderful bond. She'll pin her ears and wrinkle her nose every time you walk by her, or even snap her teeth behind your back, but she'll also stand untied in the "crossties", move back on a verbal command, follow my husband to & from her stall or turnout without a leadrope, and she's a delight to ride. She comes to the gate to greet you, then makes a horrible face, then shoves her head in the halter you hold out. We've never been able to sweeten her weird quirks, but she's such a babysitter under saddle and so thrilled to learn new things, that we work around her issues.

A horse that I really had to be careful around, or couldn't trust to help me out when riding? Nah. I don't have the courage or the energy to deal with that. I can understand, though, if you've put years into a horse hoping to turn it around and it's not improving, how hard it would be to give up on it.

[mustangtrailrider]

Plain and simple, if I don't feel comfortable or safe around or on the horse, it is gone. Once the confidence is gone between horse and rider, the relationship needs to be broken. Someone other than the rider needs to evaluate the horse! Professional advice always needs to be sought. Perhaps from an unbiased trainer, riding instructor, breeder, farrier, and vet should consult about horse. The decision is easy to make once emotion is removed from situation. If the horse needs to be euthed, let a consensus be made. Let the deed be done. If it is a training issue, let that be done.

Regardless, if I don't feel safe, animal is gone. If it is "dangerous" to person and to itself after a consesus has been made, it is euthed. I have done this ONCE. Others, I haven't trusted, have been found a better situation. I realize my limitations, but I will not have an animal I don't trust. If it is dangerous to myself or others and to itself, I believe euthanisia is far more humane.

[Doodlebug1]

Oh, another point - Though it's not common on this board, there are a LOT of owners out there who don't necessarily have horses to love on them as well as ride them. Some own them specifically for the performance they can give, whether it's racing, showing, or whatever. They leave most things up to the trainer, and have minimal interaction with the horse. Many good pros can handle "rogue" horses, so I guess maybe that's why I had also never considered putting one down, because I'd always been coming at it from a pro viewpoint because that's how I grew up, where resources and skill weren't really an issue. On the other hand, due to the pro upbringing, I can be less emotional about the option to put one down if there really aren't any other feasible alternatives, because there really are so many other fish in the sea that are already good citizens and a joy to be around.

100%. I've come across 2 horses like this in my lifetime - I haven't owned them, they've both been on professional comp yards. Both ridden by men. Both purchased already well screwed up - though 100% reliable under saddle - the post that the OP refers to, the horse flips when ridden too, this was not the case with the horses I knew.

One was a top showjumper, one a 4* event horse. Bought to do the job, cared for by small teams of people who knew to be 100% respectful 100% of the time.

Nothing in these cases could be further from the stereotyped first few posts of 'oh well, women like to save things...' Noooo.

One of these horses was euthed at the end of his competitive career, the other lived a happy retirement with one of his grooms who knew how to handle him.

Both horses lived just like normal horses with regular turnout etc - the only difference was they were always muzzled and tied when handled.

[NancyM]

Interesting topic, and replies.

I have some friends who had a TB broodmare. They are sweet people, who love their horses, always kind. She was a sweetheart mare, and had had a few foals who were fine. Then she had one who was a biotch. Not pleasant, could be dangerous to handle, kick, bite, attack humans with ears pinned for no apparent reason. But was broke and raced without killing anyone, won one slow race. Then they wanted to sell her as a riding/show horse. I thought "yikes on that one, good luck" but helped them out writing the add for them. The mare double barrel kicked her breeder in the ribs as her parting gesture. An amatuer rider liked the pedigree, and bought the horse, and got along with her for the first time in the horse's life. The horse turned into a huge success, she was happy for the first time in her life. Won multiple championships at the A circut shows, both hunters and jumpers. She stopped attacking people, though was handled carefully. Someone found the key to this horse and had success with her that was surprising.

The next foal, another filly by a different stallion, was WORSE. Far more dangerous to handle than the previous one. Right from the start, I met that foal when she was only a few days old, and she was not nice even then. She was also broke, and raced, though unsucessfully, then bowed a tendon. When she was "looking for a new career", my advice was to put her down. They wanted to breed her to my stallion, and though I was looking for mares for him, I did not want to be standing behind her myself, nor did my stallion. Turned them down. Another breeder decided that he liked the mare's pedigree, and took the mare himself, and had her pasture bred. The stallion survived the ordeal, and the mare became pregnant. On foaling, an attendant entered the stall to aide the mare. He was holding the new foal when the mare put the two of them into a corner and kicked them both so hard that the foal was killed instantly, and the fact that the foal took most of the blows was the only thing that saved the attendant's life. He had multiple broken bones. They rebred her. Then went bankrupt, and all the starving horses where taken by the SPCA, and "rehomed" locally. Yikes on that one. Be careful what you "rescue", it could be this mare. This mare would have been useful to humans cut into steaks, and roasted on the Barbque, but I can't think of another viable and safe line of work for her. Some horses truely ARE meat quality horses ONLY, due to character and personality.

The old mare's next foal was her last, raised an orphan, and was a sweetheart just like his mother, and all the others before these two.

This second filly that killed her own foal was probably the worst and most dangerous horse I have ever run across in 40 + years of what makes up my life working with horses. I think she came out that way, it was natural, not made by humans. The previous filly was similar, but not as bad, and was able to be brought around eventually. I've known other horses who have been difficult or quirky, or have had problems to which their attitudes and behaviours could be attributed, and often they can be worked around by experienced riders/trainers/handlers. Sometimes they can't. Sometimes the owners involved can't handle them themselves, and can't economically afford to put them in places where they get access to trainers who can deal with them, and sort them out to be useful equine citizens for someone who will pay to keep them fed and housed, and fill the specific needs that an owner has for a horse.

It's always hard to make the decision to euthanize a horse who is not old, and is physically healthy, not terminal with illness or unsoundness. But hard decisions are part of life, nobody ever said that working with horses is easy, or always fair. If a good meat facility is nearby, well run and horses well cared for and humanely handled, this is also an option for a horse like this IMO. His/her one last value to the humans who produced, fed and raised the horse.

[murphyluv]

Another breeder decided that he liked the mare's pedigree, and took the mare himself, and had her pasture bred. The stallion survived the ordeal, and the mare became pregnant. On foaling, an attendant entered the stall to aide the mare. He was holding the new foal when the mare put the two of them into a corner and kicked them both so hard that the foal was killed instantly, and the fact that the foal took most of the blows was the only thing that saved the attendant's life. He had multiple broken bones. They rebred her. Then went bankrupt, and all the starving horses where taken by the SPCA, and "rehomed" locally. Yikes on that one. Be careful what you "rescue", it could be this mare. This mare would have been useful to humans cut into steaks, and roasted on the Barbque, but I can't think of another viable and safe line of work for her. Some horses truely ARE meat quality horses ONLY, due to character and personality.
.

YIKES!!! I can't even imagine being in that situation!!!! WOW

[lstevenson]

Many times the most difficult horses become the best competitiors. My top horse would no doubt have been pegged as insane and given up on had someone else had him. He was one of those that "flipped a switch" and became mindlessly crazy, rearing, running sideways or backwards, running me into trees, ect. The great Lucinda Green (top British eventer) told me that he was either going to kill me or go all the way. I persisted because he was very talented, and I got the rewards. He grew up out of that behavior (at around age 10 or 11) and took me to the top level of eventing. Now at age 20 he is a pussycat.:D

Check out his pics:

http://lesleystevenson.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=3885794

[Equilibrium]

Haven't read all the replies Dazed, but here goes.

Sometimes people who haven't been doing this long or as a profession get the impression that they can save this type. They don't draw a line between the quirky and the downright dangerous. Thus we get the famous Seabiscuit quote. You know, the "just because he's a little broke doesn't mean you throw them away."

When you are young you willing put yourself in a position to change these horses because you are young and the world is your oyster. I fell into this category because I failed to see the line between the quirky and the downright dangerous. I lived to tell the tale and lesson learned.

It's all fine and well to come on here and ask for help with a dangerous horse, but at the end of the day you have 2 choices. Put them down or send them out to a cowboy who may or may not help. These would be the only 2 choices I would tell people only because my telling someone what I think will work doesn't mean squat. This puts the person at risk because I am sitting behind a computer and know nothing about said person or horse.

We all have stories of horses we've helped over the years, ones which were mistrusting or saved in one way or another. But these are also horses that met you half way and were not downright dangerous. To me, I draw the line at downright dangerous. Not the spoiled, quirky, or untrusting ones, just the ones that will hurt you.

Terri

[Showjumper28]

4 1/2 years ago I bought a horse with the most fantastic conformation and potential. (I really believe he could go Grand Prix and so do many GP riders I have talked to). And he also was the most aggressive/defensive dangerous horse I have ever dealt with. And trust me I have dealt with some real winners.

I must mention at this point I did not know when I got him that he was this way. The person I bought him from obviously had a mild tranq on him. I brought him home and the next morning I got a phone call that they couldn't get in his stall to turn him out. It took three people to lead him in and out of the barn! He was defensive and angry, unwilling to let any human touch him. He was going to get you before you got him. The first time I put a saddle on his back he reared and flipped. He would strike at you when you tried to pick up his feet and if you did manage to get them up he laid down on you. He was infamous for coming at you with mouth wide open at your face or anywhere else he thought he could get everytime anyone came in range. And touching his body was out of the question... and dangerous.

I can not begin to tell you how many people/professionals told me he would kill me. And I have to say I thought it might be likely. However I am not a quitter and I do love a challenge. I took me long time, but now he is the best behaved horse in the barn. This horse would never ever ever hurt me. And I know that anything can happen, but he has done some amazing things to keep me safe. I moved to my current about 6 months ago and no one believes me when I tell them what he was like. Every vet/farrier/chiro I have out for him say he is their favorite. He even gives kisses!

However I will admit after owning him for 2 months I decided to put him in a rough board barn where I was the only person who handled him. He was too dangerous and I did not want to risk some one elses welfare. Had he ever truly hurt me, or injured anyone else I would have put him down.

To answer your question why do people put up with this? When I talked to a GP rider he told me that they put up with just about anything if the horse has GP potential. And I will admit, that was my biggest reason. He is probably my only chance of reaching my goals on my limited budget.

Now on the flip side, I had a friend who went out and bought a real POS. Had some kind of screw loose. He would be fine one second and the next he was rearing/kicking/biting/striking. It took my 4 months to convince her to send him back. She knew she couldn't fix him, but she thought I could. Now I probably could have helped, but even if I did she could never trust him. I explained to her, any horse with issues like these when retrained, can always have a tendencies to revert. And my biggest point always is... What happens in a medical emergency? Why he struck the dentist in the head, she loaded had him picked up the next day. It should never have come to that but atleast she realized it.

Sorry its such a novel, but there are a lot of factors that go into decisions like this. I will agree.... there are a lot of nice horses out there. Most people do not have to deal with an aggressive/crazy horse. But sometimes, all they need is the right person however those horse are the exception, not the rule. And I think too many people think they are the exception.

[Dazednconfused]

Haven't read all the replies Dazed, but here goes.

Sometimes people who haven't been doing this long or as a profession get the impression that they can save this type. They don't draw a line between the quirky and the downright dangerous. Thus we get the famous Seabiscuit quote. You know, the "just because he's a little broke doesn't mean you throw them away."

When you are young you willing put yourself in a position to change these horses because you are young and the world is your oyster. I fell into this category because I failed to see the line between the quirky and the downright dangerous. I lived to tell the tale and lesson learned.

It's all fine and well to come on here and ask for help with a dangerous horse, but at the end of the day you have 2 choices. Put them down or send them out to a cowboy who may or may not help. These would be the only 2 choices I would tell people only because my telling someone what I think will work doesn't mean squat. This puts the person at risk because I am sitting behind a computer and know nothing about said person or horse.

We all have stories of horses we've helped over the years, ones which were mistrusting or saved in one way or another. But these are also horses that met you half way and were not downright dangerous. To me, I draw the line at downright dangerous. Not the spoiled, quirky, or untrusting ones, just the ones that will hurt you.

Terri

I agree 100%. Especially re: advice on how to handle one like this. 99% of it is feel and knowing what to do, when. And there's no way to communicate that through a computer screen, IMO.

[buck22]

But the thread is not asking about horses that are simply "difficult". It's asking about horses that are a danger to themselves and others.


Or different terminology perhaps.

Vicious, aggressive, rearer, bolter, biter, attacker, kicker = "difficult" horses in my book. When you start labelling the horse as a specific whatever, I believe it is a hindrance. "Difficult horse" is label enough.

^^^^ precisely.

[pj]

How does he get farrier care, vaccinations and worming? Sounds like poor horse management if not able to give the basic requirements.

I wondered the same thing. What if he has an injury and is bleeding to death..does he just have to bleed?

In all my years of being in/with/around numerous horses (and that is a lot of years) I've only seen one that was just hard down mean and vicious. For those who don't know if something is hard down whatever it means no hope for. :)
Anyhow this horse came to my boarding stable about forty years ago. The folks had just bought him and he was a "purdy thang". You could tell he wasn't fond of people but not bad on the ground. They started trying to ride him after he'd been there a few days and they would get on and he'd buck them off. At that time I "thought" I was the it rider, could ride the wind if I wanted to. :rolleyes:
I'll ride him says me. On I go. That sucker bucked, he bucked like a really good rodeo horse but I stuck. FINALLY after what seemed like forever he stopped bucking and went into a wonderful working trot. We went around the large riding ring two or three times and he didn't put a foot wrong. I shoulda known better but I leaned slightly forward, stretched out my hand to pat him and was just going to say "good, boy" when he lowered the boom on me. :lol: I hit the ground and remember seeing the horse start to run off but guess he decided I'd given him so much trouble it was best to kill me so I would never bother him again. He came back and started stomping me. I remember well the sight of hooves coming down on me several times as I tried to avoid them. Fortunately two of the male boarders were there and chased him off. I do remember them asking if I was okay and could I stand and then nothing. They said I said I was okay and then some very unlady like things like I was going to kill that sob and so on.
Next thing I knew I was in the hosp.

The horse was gone when I was able to get back to the barn and I've often wondered what they did with him. That horse COULD be ridden but I don't think you would ever ever be able to let your guard down for one single second. By him coming back to finish me I know that was one hard down mean sucker and I doubt he would ever change.

I've known kickers, rearers, biters but never one that was vindictive like this. Never before one I felt there was no hope for. I truely wish they'd had this one euthed but am sure they just sold him on.

[ambar]

I wondered the same thing. What if he has an injury and is bleeding to death..does he just have to bleed?

I suspect at that point the owner would win the argument with the nearby vet school, but I am just speculating. (I should reiterate that I have enormous respect for the current owner, even though I disagree with him about keeping this particular horse alive. It's the SOBs who made said horse crazy that I'd like to beat senseless with a dressage whip.)

[blackstallion2]

Good thread, and great replies. :yes:

[magicteetango]

I have a horse who, for whatever reason, is completely un rideable. He's been through 18 owners at 17 years of age, and been with one of the most advanced can-ride-and-retrain-anything riders I know. She gave up on him as well. He is quiet on the ground, but has a tendency to get startled easily and randomly. Under saddle, he's very unpredictable. One day you can ride around bareback with two lead ropes, the next day you ask him to walk, and he's out of the county. The third day, you try and get on and you're leaping all over the pen. The fourth day? Back to unbelievably calm.

He is not an evil horse, nor aggressive in any way. But you couldn't pay me $1 million dollars to sit on that horse again. Ever. He is retired, and is living out his days. Sad as it is, young as it is, it seems he is getting to the point where it won't be very much longer. The neglect he had suffered has taken it's toll on him. I rescued him when he was skin and bones, and I've seen photos of one other time he was rescued after I tracked down his history. I ran a panel for lyme, we're going to try new joint supplements... trying to keep him going reasonably. But even my vet is not all that hopeful. Sad the physiological results that neglect, or potentially abuse, can have.

I believe he was made this way by people, he may have been rogue-ish to begin with, and the wrong tactics were used. Who knows, who cares.

The point of the matter is... I care for him because I can afford to. I care for him because I want to ensure that he will not be ridden, ever again. For the sake of people, and for the sake of him. If he was not a sweetheart on the ground, I would've put him down years ago. I do not understand people keeping these aggressive horses. I have struggled with the thought of keeping mine despite not having this. It's not as if he earned his retirement, I've ridden him a handful of times, and supported him for almost six years.

There are horses starving. There are horses at auctions who really do need new homes. There are horses on craigslist who got the sh*tty end of the stick at life. WHY. Why would anyone keep a nasty horse when there are so many who would make someone so happy, and deserve such a wonderful home?

My other thought is... the horse is miserable. He must be, or he wouldn't behave this way. No animal enjoys being constantly on guard, and aggressive. Why continue to put this horse through a life he doesn't enjoy?

Sometimes, you've done all you can do. At that time, you make whatever decision is best for you, and for the horse. We're not under an obligation to "fix" everything. Especially those you did not screw up.

Sorry if it seems cold, but I think keeping a horse that is in such emotional distress that it behaves that way, is long term not fair to the horse, or anyone that has to handle it. You are not a bad person for making a difficult decision. It's what makes you a horseman.

[twofatponies]

magicteetango - that rings true. Like my mother used to say about bullies "people who feel the need to be mean to others must feel really bad about themselves inside". I don't think an animal that is expressing such aggression or erratic behavior is a happy animal. It's either acting out of constant fear or anger or just out of a mental defect where it can't even process what's happening around it correctly. That's a stressful and unpleasant state of mind to spend so much time in.

A happy horse is relaxed and at ease; excited and exuberant sometimes, sure, but not in a constant or frequent state of hostility or panic.

[threedogpack]

Magicteetango wrote: the horse is miserable. He must be, or he wouldn't behave this way. No animal enjoys being constantly on guard, and aggressive.

You know, one of the female rescue dogs I euthed was aggressive. She was sometimes on guard but I don’t think she was unhappy. I was unhappy, my personal dogs were wary, but I think the few months she spent at my house were probably some of the best she’d had in a long long time. I think there are some animals that don’t have a problem with real aggression. After awhile I would also imagine that it becomes second nature to them, it’s just the response they have to everything associated with that trigger.

[magicteetango]

I think that would be more likely in a dog, which is a predator. I would think that a prey herd animal would be really unlikely to feel comfortable being aggressive constantly, historically not in their nature. However, perhaps there are isolated cases.

[matryoshka]

I have a horse who, for whatever reason, is completely un rideable. He's been through 18 owners at 17 years of age, and been with one of the most advanced can-ride-and-retrain-anything riders I know. She gave up on him as well. He is quiet on the ground, but has a tendency to get startled easily and randomly. Under saddle, he's very unpredictable. One day you can ride around bareback with two lead ropes, the next day you ask him to walk, and he's out of the county. The third day, you try and get on and you're leaping all over the pen. The fourth day? Back to unbelievably calm.I had one like this. Bred him myself, so I can't blame anybody else. He was fine on the ground, but he'd occasionally go out of his head under saddle. I tried for several years and then gave up (he was a gorgeous mover)--even if I could ride through the spooks, bystanders would not be safe. We kept him until he needed to have an eye removed at age 22--decided he'd be unsafe with only one eye. This horse would lose all sense of self preservation during a spook and it lasted as long as it lasted. Not safe to ride, but not exactly a dangerous horse in that he was not aggressive. Wired wrong is my guess.

I agree: be careful what you rescue. Some animals find themselves in need of rescue through simple bad luck. Others have worn out their welcome at multiple homes and have some behavioral issue that led to their predicament. Whether it was born or made, in an adult horse, it is a serious problem if people don't feel safe handling him.

We did have one at the rescue who was a bad kicker. When the vet was out for choke, she thought he might have developed pnemonia. She wanted to take his temp, and I said "No." She asked what I thought of having him in a stall with his butt out the door so she could be safe from getting kicked, and I told her I didn't feel safe holding the horse. This horse could kick the wings off a fly even when tranqued. No deal. I'm not going to let a vet get hurt, and I'm not putting myself at risk. For farrier care, I was the trimmer. I could not trim his hinds and after a while gave up on his fronts. I'd have a front foot between my knees and feel the wind of a hind reaching forward to kick my head. I'm a slow learner, but I eventually declined to trim him at all. Tried tranqs without success.

Another one was very aggressive toward other horses in a mixed herd. He'd ram them, rear and strike heads, and may have been working himself up to savage pasture mates before I got him out of here. He was mostly okay with only geldings. Rumor has it that he eventually started scaring humans, too. In the right setting this horse might have been okay, but he wasn't likely to find himself in the kind of home that could handle him. Too many physical issues.

Waiting to euth a horse untl he has proven to be dangerous by hurting somebody is not smart. Even if he kills somebody, chances are there is somebody who thinks he can be rehabbed or that he was simply handled wrong. I'm not among those who think like that. Put them down before they hurt somebody.

[threedogpack]

I think that would be more likely in a dog, which is a predator. I would think that a prey herd animal would be really unlikely to feel comfortable being aggressive constantly, historically not in their nature. However, perhaps there are isolated cases.

I dunno. I think if it works they keep doing it, and with enough practice it becomes the new normal, then the new normal becomes comfortable. I do doubt if it starts out being comfortable, but I imagine any individual can get used to almost any circumstance given enough practice.

[DressageFancy]

Completely off the subject but, then again, maybe not. I have recently aquired a young gelding who I rescued from just standing alone in the pasture unused and finially totally unwanted. Well fed because he had plenty grass and his wormings were regular so he was in lovely shape physically. I have never met a horse so hungry for human attention! If he were a dog he would "wiggle" from one end to the other every time you got him out to put on the saddle! I have trained dangerous/unpredictable horses. Even managed to make them usefull. Only had one that had been so totally made vicious by previous trainer that I advised put down---too much damage to him mentally (not sure what they actually did with him but I think they sent him through a meat auction---they wouldn't tell me). Anyway, I'm finding this new gelding to be such a joy and light to work with that I don't ever want to think about a damaged or vicious (by nature) horse again! Oh but that all horses could be so happy and full of joy as this one!!! In a perfect world.....

[tBHj]

Some horses, like some people are not born... right IMO.

I would never put up with (spend money on) one that didn't respect me, ever.