Gelding with severe behavioral problems, any ideas?

[MissCapitalSplash]

I have a gelding that has some pretty bad behavioral issues. He's been called a sociopath by many.
He bites. A lot. You will be standing there near him and all of a sudden he has his ears flat against his head and is trying to bite you. He has always done this. I have known him for 5 yrs and he did this when he was first acquired. Nothing seems to work. If you ignore it, it keeps going. If you smack him or get after him, he gets worse. If you reward him for being good it does nothing to keep him from being bad.
He's horrid for the farrier because he can't stand still, he is too busy trying to bite the poor guy.

The more serious issue, however, is that he charges you in his paddock. It comes out of no where. You can be standing there filling up the water tank while he's grazing far away. Next thing you know he is charging at you full speed with his ears flat. Or you could be standing there petting him, he's being nice and next thing you know he charges you. I have tried going in with a lunge whip. The problem with this horse is the more you fight back, the worse he gets. At this point we just don't go in there with him. I lure him to the gate with treats and catch him over the gate and bring him out to do anything in his paddock such as cleaning it, filling water etc.
This past weekend however, he charged someone while they were outside his paddock. He came flying and tried to attack her over the gate.
He is the same in his stall.

Undersaddle he is either a superstar or a dangerous horse. Some days he is game and up for anything. Other days he refuses to go forward and if provoked will flip himself over backwards.

I am at a loss. When he's good he's so good, but when he's bad it is TERRIFYING. I'm at the point where I don't even want to ride him because I'm not sure which horse I'm going to get when I get on him.

He has had full vet work ups. No ulcers, blood work is normal. No pain. Vets concluded he is a jerk of a horse.
He is on a very low concentrate diet, and what he gets is very low nsc, low carb. He is fed free choice forage. He also gets a joint supplement and ration balancer.

I am out of ideas. What about regumate? A lobotomy? prozac?

[BabyGreen]

How about a couple of months with a tough professional trainer?

[ChocoMare]

With all due respect, a horse that bites and charges is dangerous...period. He's also a liabiilty unless you live on 100's of acres where he would not come into contact with anyone but you. What if he were to charge a child or get ahold of a kid's arm and fling 'em? :(

Alas, I've seen it. Thomas' School of Riding on LI had a big draft gelding they kept in the schoolie string for larger adults. Nastiest sun of a gun I've ever known. Chronic biter and lunger at people.

One show day, he was in his stall between classes. An 8-year old sister of one of the show team was walking by the shed row and Jim lunged over the door, got the kid by the arm and dangled her 4 feet off the ground.

He was dead within the hour, courtesy of the show vet on duty.

I know it was probably not what you wanted to hear, but there are just some horses that cannot be brought back. So either they have to be turned out to live free-range on 100's of acres OR they are assisted Over The Bridge.

I do not envy you the decision. :cry:

[cdalt]

Sounds way too dangerous to mess with - if you can afford sending him to a "tough professional trainer" there is some possibility it could be straightened out (and a good trainer should be able to tell you within a month if it is going to work). If not, I would euthanize the horse as hard as that may be. A friend of mine had a similar gelding who finally had to be put down after attacking more than one barn worker. It is just not worth keeping a horse that you have to constantly worry will attack you or some innocent bystander (not to mention the legal liability involved).

[MistyBlue]

Barring a brain tumor of some sort...there isn't a shortage of @sshole personality horses out there. Some are just wired all fakakt. Every once in a while we come into contact with one...and no amount of training or meds or experience will fix it.
We either learn to accept the animal for how it is, rehome it to someone who wants to/can deal with this type of horse or have it humanely euthanized. Retiring it usually isn't an option because it's not just dangerous under saddle..and there simply isn't a way to retire and properly care for an animal that attacks randomly. (not to mention a horse like that is a liability nightmare)
MCS...knowing you, you've already gone above and beyond with training, treatments and tests. It isn't your particular handling either. The choices are slim if it's not medical-related...deal with him and take your chances, rehome to someone who knows what he is and is willing to deal with him or euthanize. The former is setting you up for a possible serious injury though, attackers and flippers don't just cause some bruises. They cause catastrophic injuries...not a matter of "if" but "when." Please be careful.

[MissCapitalSplash]

That is where I am torn. He was actually with a pro trainer for 3 years. Prior to that time, he did not rear. Ever. He was wonderful undersaddle, willing and happy. He bit and was awful on the ground, definitely, but he did not rear. While with the trainer, he acquired an extensive show record but also the ability and desire to rear.
I was not a part of his life during his time at the trainer's, as I had sold him. Imagine my surprise when I got him back to find he now likes to rear. I was warned not to push his buttons too much when he's in a mood because he will flip himself right over. I ran into this scenario at an event this summer. He decided halfway through XC that he was done and he planted his feet. The more I pushed him, the higher he would rear until he was ready to go up and over. I quit before that point, unfortunately because I just will not deal with rearing! And I wasn't hitting him with the stick or anything, just trying to turn him, disengage the hindquarters, get his feet moving somewhere other than up.

I don't like that he's a horse that I have to walk on eggshells around. Try not to ask him anything that might piss him off. I would love to change that but I've been told that I need to accept how he is. I'm not willing to accept that he may decide he doesn't want to do what I want him to do so he's going to flip himself over. Sorry but to be that is unacceptable behavior!
But it's hard because if he get after him he truly gets angrier and into a rage.

I've thought of sending him to a good cowboy. But I'm torn because it could go well or it could go horribly, horribly bad! Any suggestions of someone who might be able to help him?

[JackieBlue]

Call me crazy, but it's the rearing and flipping over under tack that really makes me go :eek:. Rearing is just too dangerous to take chances on and flipping intentionally, well, it's downright fatal. Any horse that rears can lose its balance and crush its rider, but one that dismisses its own sense of self preservation in an EFFORT to crush its rider? That wouldn't last long in my barn. I'm sure you'll get advice to get him to a professional trainer and such, but I'm of the opinion that there are enough sweet, happy, loving, well meaning horses out there that the risks involved in attempting to rehab one like this are too high. I've known a number of chronic rearers/flippers that very big name professionals have written off as unfixable and I can't say I blame them. Our sport is dangerous enough without trying to pair up with horses that mean us bodily harm.
To break it down to its most basic, it sounds like this horse is miserable and I get the feeling that you are, too. If he were mine he MIGHT earn a good long vacation in a huge back 40 type field where he can't hurt anyone to see if time off and away from stress settles his temperament at all, but he'd be pushing up daisies if that had no effect. I dunno though, as strongly as I dislike rearing he might already be 6 feet under and some very sweet horse in search of a home would be on my back 40. ;)

[MissCapitalSplash]

I hear your thoughts on euthing. It has been a thought. But I struggle because when he's good, he is so, so good it is heavenly. This spring we won an event on the lowest dressage score I've ever gotten and the most gorgeous stadium and XC I've ever ridden. And 2 events later he quits on XC because he just doesn't want to play. He is loved and admired by many for his talent when he is game. But I've had 2 farriers quit on me and my own family refuses to handle him on the ground.

I am also struggling with some fear now. I never feared him until he charged me when I was in the middle of the paddock. I was there alone and I truly thought I'd be dead. I had a bucket in my hand and I threw it at his head. I know that sounds awful but I was scared out of my mind. He was coming at me full speed with his ears flat back and he was out for blood. I threw the bucket and hit him in the head with it and yelled at him to CUT IT OUT as I scrambled out of the paddock. I know that by me leaving the paddock he learned that he gets what he wants from that behavior but I was not about to stand my ground and fight with him.
Now I find myself leading him and worrying and seeing in my mind that he's going to lose it and attack me. I doubt he would, as he's never attacked when out of his paddock and on lead, but the thought is in my mind.

It's like an abusive relationship. He is good to me at random intervals so I keep loving him when he's trying to kill me.

[grayarabpony]

Wow, this sounds bad.

As far as the rearing goes, you can't just turn the horse, you need to use the whip at the same time to make the hind legs move.

But this horse sounds like he has something wrong with him. Being that dominant/ aggressive just doesn't sound normal at all. How is he with other horses?

[JackieBlue]

Do you know his breeding, Splash?

[JackieBlue]

Splash, if you ignore all other advice in this thread, please heed this. You and the people who love you will not care one lick how "golden" he CAN be at times when he crushes your pelvis, bites your face off or outright kills you. I have personally known 2 professional, very talented trainers who were killed when a horse went up and flipped.
Doing well at an event is exciting and rewarding and all, but can you hug him and kiss his nose at the end of the day? I highly doubt that either of you are enjoying your time together as much as you should be. Your horse may be very capable of his job, but he clearly does not like it. You say he's gotten worse over time. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. This isn't going to go away and you'd be hard pressed to find someone to tackle such a dangerous project. And even if you beat the rear out of him successfully (not likely), what then? Will he like eventing or people anymore than he does now? Any less?
I know you're in a hard spot, but shouldn't you be having fun with a horse that loves you? And shouldn't an unhappy horse be released from his suffering one way or another?

[FatPalomino]

Eek.
I wouldn't send him to a cowboy.
ALL of the truly mean horses I've seen were made that way by humans. They didn't come out of the womb that way. In your case, you're describing how he acquired that behavior.

You defiantly need outside help, however, because you're scared (and rightfully so!!!). Maybe there is a behaviorist in your area- at a vet school or big practice- that can help? I think this horse is probably outside the realm of 'normal' help.

A spinoff, but, I wonder how many horses that are balky, not in pain, rearers ever get "fixed" of the problem. I rode one bad mare- if you tried to steer her, she'd buck then rear, a crop only sent her up higher. The AA owner would get off her when this happened. She was a dressage horse, they said making her a jumper helped, but she was quickly sold.... so who knows.

[buck22]

wow, poor you and poor animal.

all of the horses I've had had been chronic biters and run-you-overs (but out of the blue charging is not something I've had to deal with, predictable charging, yes). My first horse - who I still have - had signed his one-way ticket to New Holland by picking a girl up by the shoulder and throwing her down an aisle. I bought him the next week. This horse is still a bit nippy and so never childsafe around his face, but ended up teaching lessons to little peanut beginners, standing for hours to be groomed, have his feet picked, etc... he became a model citizen and I have him still.

Though every horse has had its own special 'issue', they all required one thing and that was a firm, consistent and patient leader.

Horses are herd animals, they require a leader that they can trust, and if they can't trust them, they take over. Its survival. Once in a while you have a horse that is too cowardly to want to be alpha, but is too smart to allow himself to be led by a someone he can't trust. This is a very tough position for a herd animal, to them, their lives are in constant danger, its a stressful way to live. I had a pony like this, submissive in the herd, dominant and dangerous around people (seriously hurt his prior owner). This pony didn't know his position in life and it was disturbing to him. His aggressive behavior was actually fear. He'd act aggressive to see who was boss, *because he needed to know*. When the human would back down, then come charging back with whips, etc, it sent all the wrong signals to him: humans are submissive and unpredictable.

He was a smart, sensitive athletic pony that needed a firm and consistent hand. He needed humans to put him in his place so he felt secure, but he couldn't be smacked around or manhandled in the process as that was seen as abuse. He turned out to be an exceptional pony hunter and jumper, and a wonderful trustworthy mount for little kids.

Diet, ulcers, SADDLE FIT, are all reasons to put a horse on the edge like you describe. Also, constant low grade pain. I agree get a chiro, a horse in pain is a horse that is frightened and may need to defend himself like you describe.

I also agree, get a good firm trainer, one that understands what you've got.

In the meanwhile, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that in your daily dealings with the horse, he's probably dropping little hints that he's boss and he's not being put in his place (some horses *need* to be put in their place). The charging and biting is the horse's way of "shouting" his message. Before he shouts, he talks, a glance, positioning of the body, ears, eyes, stepping into your space, leaning, turning his bum to you, bulging his shoulder or neck or hip to you, there are a zillion little ways the horse can communicate to you that he's gonna bite or charge. Its when the handler dismisses or ignores this, that the horse will feel the need to follow through often.

Again, I agree, find a good trainer and a chiro. In the meanwhile, expect absolute perfection in manners from this horse while on the ground. Correct him for every hoof put out of place, expect absolute perfection from him and don't give him a nano-inch of slack. Don't hand feed if you do. Don't feed this horse if his ears are back, don't allow him to turn his rump to you at any time. Don't allow him to goof off while leading, or tying, or grooming, etc. Pay close attention to his body language and try to read what he's telling you and stop any goofy crap the second you think it might start. He's trying to tell you something, probably that he needs a leader, but also possibly that something is wrong or hurting.

I wish you the very best of luck. I have a soft spot for horses like you describe, and yours sound very tough. good luck

[egontoast]

It could just be dominance gone overboard because it was allowed to escalate or it could be physical. If it is the former, I'll go out on a limb and say it probably is fixable with the right trainer.

I had one that was pretty nasty, even dangerous, and he completely turned around but it required some work.

because of my experience with that horse, if I was satisfied there was no physical issue, I'd be inclined to give the horse another chance with a good trainer for these issues, before deciding to put him down.

[JohnDeere]

Had one similar (not mine) once. The horse was terrified of people with rakes or pitchforks. The horse would go around lovely, stop and rear. I dont think the biting was a part of it.

What worked somewhat was putting a cowboy (not a trainer a cowboy) on him and encouraging him to just go forward. No bridle, just a halter with reins. We think someone snatched him enough that hw wasnt going forward no matter what you did. But he got to where he would go forward not rear work a bridle and wouldnt climb the walls when someone came in.

He was given away by the owner. We think hes making progress. This was a trainer issue not a horse issue. The horse was checked from nose to tail for everything.

If you try him with a trainer be very careful. Some are good, some are abusive. Sometimes that works, sometimes not. But I would never trust a horse like the one you describe. There are lots of good horses out there.

Tough choce. I think whichever you do would be right.

[buck22]

I am also struggling with some fear now. I never feared him until he charged me when I was in the middle of the paddock. I was there alone and I truly thought I'd be dead. I had a bucket in my hand and I threw it at his head. I know that sounds awful but I was scared out of my mind. He was coming at me full speed with his ears flat back and he was out for blood. I threw the bucket and hit him in the head with it and yelled at him to CUT IT OUT as I scrambled out of the paddock. I know that by me leaving the paddock he learned that he gets what he wants from that behavior but I was not about to stand my ground and fight with him.
Now I find myself leading him and worrying and seeing in my mind that he's going to lose it and attack me. I doubt he would, as he's never attacked when out of his paddock and on lead, but the thought is in my mind.

It's like an abusive relationship. He is good to me at random intervals so I keep loving him when he's trying to kill me.

oh I feel so terrible for you, I know how you feel.

the bolded part says to me that you probably need to be a better boss - since you recognize this already. He probably has your number throughout the day, and there are times you probably know it but let it slide because its no big deal. But it is always a big deal, the little things are the biggest deals to the horse... letting him get away with little crap is feeding his need to pull the big stuff. He needs to be firmly managed, but with fairness, not tyranny. it doesn't have to be war, you don't have to go to hand-to-hand combat with your horse to 'prove' your the leader. Its actually more important, more meaningful if you pick on the little details.

There is a book, True Horsemanship Through Feel by Bill Dorrance and Leslie Desmond. Its an amazing book, you'll likely not find it much help at first, but one of the main ideas the book centers on is being in control of the horse at all times, by controlling the feet. Its something many of us over look, but being able to position a horses feet is soooo meaningful to them, and can work in such a subtle and quiet way. Leslie Desmond has a wonderful site too that is filled with articles to read: http://lesliedesmond.com/index.php?id=27

none of this is a substitute for a trainer though, you're in over your head and need help. And, I'll hazard a guess there is no magic bullet for this one, like 'ulcers' poof and he's better. Your horse needs to be put in his place, and you need to learn how to do it. You need a trainer that will work with you both.

I got lucky with my first horse, right when I was at the point you are now, a trainer showed up and lived at my stable for the summer. I was her shadow for the entire summer and learned what leadership really was about. She put me on the right path and I turned my 'dangerous' horse around in a surprisingly quiet manner.

euth is always humane option if you cannot get help. no one should ever feel ashamed of that.

I wish you so much luck

[MissCapitalSplash]

I will try to respond to everyone's questions.

grayarabpony: He is not turned out with other horses. He is actually ok with them unless there is a human in the equation. He will then attack the others. Very odd. You can watch them all getting along through the window of the house, but if you go out there he starts attacking the others.

Jackieblue- no clue on his breeding. He's a big ole spotted thing. Looks like a warmblood, but with spots. We think he may be a Wap bred app. He was an auction rescue initially. he had been abandoned at a boarding barn and sold on back board. Supposedly he had done some dressage. The boarding barn owner that brought him said he was very nasty and territorial and he was worried about his kids around him.
And sometimes, I CAN hug and kiss him. And then he bites me.
I hear what you are saying about the risk factor, and that is where I am torn as to whether or not it is even worth it!

Buck22- You and I think about him very similarly! I feel bad for him. he seems lost and stressed.
I have tried to do as you described, not allowing any sort of non-manners. But even if you lightly ask him to move over on crossties, he will whip around and try to bite. Or pushing his hindquarters over may result in him firing at you.
I want him to know that I am not going to hurt him, but at the same time, that doesn't work.
What would you do if you went to push him out of your space and he came at you harder?

[sidepasser]

Sounds like you should send the horse to Buck22.

On a serious note, I had an app mare come to me, 6 years old and was the nicest thing on the ground, very sweet and loving. Put a saddle on her and ask her to work a little bit (and I do mean a little bit - like a walk for five minutes on the lounge line) and if she didn't feel like working that day - she would throw herself to the ground and just lay there. Wouldn't get up for any amount of feed, treats, or even if tapped with a whip.

When she got good and ready to get up - she'd get up just fine and go about her business. Did it unpredictably - some days she'd ride fine, others she would ride ten steps and plant her feet. If made to go forward or disengage the hindquarters, she'd fling herself on the ground. Strangest thing I have ever seen. Owner was petrified to ride her and tried to make her a cart pony..not happening - she did the same thing in harness. One day go along perfectly, next day she might work a bit and then just plant her hooves and lay down.

Mare was vetted nine ways from Sunday - complete neuro tests, and bloodwork, etc. and never was anything found. She was fine in the pasture, running about, never lame. No ulcers. The best we could figure out is she had gotten away with it once with her novice owner and so figured it worked well and made it the main method of no work.

I refused to work the mare as she was so unpredictable and had no care for her own safety..she'd fling herself down, not just quietly lay down, more like be trotting and then just fall over. I wondered if she had a brain tumor or something that back then could not be diagnosed due to lack of equipment. At any rate, I did advise owner to either retire her to pasture or put her down. I also suggested she not sell the horse to anyone as someone would get hurt eventually.

There are some out there that have problems too big to deal with. Either they are eternal money pits (trainers, and more trainers, vets and more bills, etc.) or they are so mentally damaged from previous owners/trainers, experiences that they should be put down before they do hurt someone. Liability these days is huge when you know a horse is dangerous and from the description, I'd not have that horse anywhere on my property due to little children being around.

What if said horse gets loose at a show and charges someone? That could end up a nightmare. Or just reaches out and bites some child at random? Too much liability for me not to mention the guilt I would have over something like that. Either send him out or put him on retirement pasture where no one has to deal with him other than yourself for hooves, vet care, etc. Other option is to put to sleep (not anyone's favorite) option but considering what you have described, it might be the best option.

[shea'smom]

I am sending you a PM.

[twofatponies]

"In the meanwhile, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that in your daily dealings with the horse, he's probably dropping little hints that he's boss and he's not being put in his place (some horses *need* to be put in their place). The charging and biting is the horse's way of "shouting" his message. Before he shouts, he talks, a glance, positioning of the body, ears, eyes, stepping into your space, leaning, turning his bum to you, bulging his shoulder or neck or hip to you, there are a zillion little ways the horse can communicate to you that he's gonna bite or charge. Its when the handler dismisses or ignores this, that the horse will feel the need to follow through often.

Again, I agree, find a good trainer and a chiro. In the meanwhile, expect absolute perfection in manners from this horse while on the ground. Correct him for every hoof put out of place, expect absolute perfection from him and don't give him a nano-inch of slack. Don't hand feed if you do. Don't feed this horse if his ears are back, don't allow him to turn his rump to you at any time. Don't allow him to goof off while leading, or tying, or grooming, etc. Pay close attention to his body language and try to read what he's telling you and stop any goofy crap the second you think it might start. He's trying to tell you something, probably that he needs a leader, but also possibly that something is wrong or hurting."

^^^that is very very true. However, is that a good fit for the OP, who just wants to ride and compete and not be on her guard with her life at risk? Maybe not. Personally I don't think any horse is worth risking life and limb around. Some people enjoy that challenge. Maybe you can find one to hand him off to?

[buck22]

And sometimes, I CAN hug and kiss him. And then he bites me.
dont hug n kiss. I think the root of some of the issue is being revealed here. don't treat the horse like a big puppy dog. Hugging and snuggling and kissing can work against you with some horses, its confusing. You come up, invade their space, then they come and invade yours and you push them back or admonish them, so then they bite.

I love to snuggle my horse's heads, but I stand at their shoulder and bring their head aroudn to me, I do this for bridling, haltering, and giving snuggles and kisses and face scratches.

Buck22- You and I think about him very similarly! I feel bad for him. he seems lost and stressed.
he is, but 'oh poor boy' attitude will just get you in deeper. Be the strict school-marm.

I have tried to do as you described, not allowing any sort of non-manners. But even if you lightly ask him to move over on crossties, he will whip around and try to bite. Or pushing his hindquarters over may result in him firing at you.
I want him to know that I am not going to hurt him, but at the same time, that doesn't work.
What would you do if you went to push him out of your space and he came at you harder?
this is him testing you. you're not making him angry with requests, you're making him angry by asking him to do something and not follwing through. I think you're not being nearly as firm with this horse as you need to be. Being firm doesn't mean hurting or scaring. Did you ever have your parent or an adult be firm with you as a child, but did you no harm? My father had a way of putting his hand on my shoulder just so, so I knew he meant business, but he never hurt me or yelled at me.

If my horse were to try to bite me, depending on the horse, I'd either scare the living snot out of him, or love him to death. If my horse were to try to whip around and bite me when I asked him to move his hq's over, I would stop right there, take him out to the closest open area, and start working his feet. Authoritively, but fairly.

Your horse needs you to be in charge. It doesn't have to be a war. Horsemanship is not a competition.

Read this article and perhaps try these exercises. They develop not submissiveness, but open the door to asking-receiving-rewarding. All of them are wonderful tools to start learning how to have a conversation with your horse, develop trust and the willingness to be obedient.

http://lesliedesmond.com/index.php?id=124

BUT this is no replacement for real help. You need real live human help, not books or videos or forums. You would benefit best from a trainer that will train you and your horse.

[MistyBlue]

If this helps...this horse was with a top trainer. And a good one. I doubt this is a training issue.
MCS isn't the timid type around horses at all and has had numerous basket cases and bad behavior horses that she's handled well and fine and turned into solid citizens.
If she did bolt out of that paddock...that horse was out for her big time and it was probably the best decision she could make.
MCS also has a pretty serious back issue...a horse like this is dangerous to a sound person. To MCS...really scary.

MCS...he had behavioral issues in the past which was why he was abandoned and sold for back board. You did great by him and had him turned around...but honestly who knows if he would have stayed that way had he stayed with you instead of being sold? When he came back his behavioral issues were back and even worse. Dollars to donuts he's got a glitch somewhere. I don't think this is a training issue...or a handling issue...I'm betting it's a lifelong issue with him that comes and goes and it just happened to come back with the last owner and now you're stuck with him again. You'll never be able to pinpoint his triggers...he could become great again and just blow up out of the blue. It's been a lifelong habit of his from what you know about him. He's dangerous.

[Daydream Believer]

I truly would put the horse down. Your life, health, and the well being of other people is not worth keeping this horse around. He's proven that he can be dangerous and it sounds like you've already tried to rule out physical causes. I don't think a harsh trainer would do any good at all...would probably make him worse or get him or the trainer hurt.

There are just way too many nice horses headed for slaughter to waste time, effort, and injury on one like this. Do yourself and him a favor and end it before someone gets hurt badly.

[Fantastic]

Poor horse! :cry:

It never ceases to amaze me why people with psycho horses don't eliminate testosterone and ulcers as the root to the behavior! Should be a no-brainer if you have a gelding with agressive behavior re: testosterone.:mad:

If this horse has been this way for so long, why hasn't anyone ran a hormone panel on him to see if his 'mones are out of whack? Also, why not elim ulcers? His undersaddle behavior alone qualifies him as an ulcer horse, and who knows, maybe contributes to his ground behavior. He is worried and he chooses to fight over flight (the two main choices for a horse).

If you don't elim these two things, you may euth a horse who could be pretty easily otherwise cured. Both the hormone test and a week of ulcer meds is pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things when it comes to horses. Your life and the horse's might suddenly be so much easier and happier with drugs! :D ('mones and ulcergard).

Otherwise, euth him; he is not a happy camper and might kill someone. Then what? Life is too short to own a psycho horse, and especially one with a life long of history. Cut your losses.

Either way, sorry for your and the poor horse's situation.:cry:

[hitchinmygetalong]

MCS, I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. I have no advice for you, but I do know that anything that can be done to help this horse deal with his demons, you will do it. You've proven yourself to be a good and proper horseman over the years on this board. Best of luck with him, and please stay safe.

[JackieBlue]

I will try to respond to everyone's questions.

grayarabpony: He is not turned out with other horses. He is actually ok with them unless there is a human in the equation. He will then attack the others. Very odd. You can watch them all getting along through the window of the house, but if you go out there he starts attacking the others.

Jackieblue- no clue on his breeding. He's a big ole spotted thing. Looks like a warmblood, but with spots. We think he may be a Wap bred app. He was an auction rescue initially. he had been abandoned at a boarding barn and sold on back board. Supposedly he had done some dressage. The boarding barn owner that brought him said he was very nasty and territorial and he was worried about his kids around him.
And sometimes, I CAN hug and kiss him. And then he bites me.
I hear what you are saying about the risk factor, and that is where I am torn as to whether or not it is even worth it!

Buck22- You and I think about him very similarly! I feel bad for him. he seems lost and stressed.
I have tried to do as you described, not allowing any sort of non-manners. But even if you lightly ask him to move over on crossties, he will whip around and try to bite. Or pushing his hindquarters over may result in him firing at you.
I want him to know that I am not going to hurt him, but at the same time, that doesn't work.
What would you do if you went to push him out of your space and he came at you harder?


Wait a minute, he kicks too? He may be lost and stressed and miserable and all of that. I get it. Really. But he's an enormous animal that could FUBAR someone by accident let alone if he's intentionally targeting people. A sweet, friendly horse who loves you could do you serious harm, even kill you, entirely by accident. But this horse WANTS to hurt you. What are the chances you're luck will hold up over the long term? I'm a firm believer that there are worse fates than death.

[Coreene]

Mare, we have known each other for so long that you know how much it hurts me to say this, but I would give him a gentle passing. You are a wonderful horsewoman and you alway go above and beyond for all your guys, but with this one I'd say you gotta know when to fold, and with this one I would fold.

[europa]

Something is not in balance with this horse. I would run a blood panel on him ASAP. Horses do not misbehave for no reason.

Check his saddle fit
He sounds like a worry ulcer horse to me. I would make sure he is on a good pre and probiotic just because.

He is totally lacking in social skills with others it sounds like. I have heard people say to put a horse like this out with a total Alpha to teach them their place. That would be your call.

I have a gelding like yours and Magnesium supps really helped his crazy spook and mellowed him. I also took him off all processed feeds. HUGE difference. He is in a shared paddock split with hotwire so he thinks he is out with others but isn't. I hotwired his stall to prevent him from kicking the walls down...which he did and now ALL is well. He is happy to work.

There is a solution even if you don't think there is.......remember as I tell everyone.....you are smarter then your horse. They just think they can control you.

[Saidapal]

but with this one I'd say you gotta know when to fold, and with this one I would fold.

Agree. He's bought himself a one way ticket to the rainbow bridge. The rearing and flipping would be my last straw. He's now trying to hurt people and people always come before horses.

[CAH]

I've thought of sending him to a good cowboy. But I'm torn because it could go well or it could go horribly, horribly bad! Any suggestions of someone who might be able to help him?

Bad for who - the horse or the cowboy? Seriously, there are not a whole lot of options here. My question is what do you want long term for this horse? Are you planning on keeping him? Selling him? Always looking over your back, wondering, worrying?

Its easy to say put him down. Saying it and doing it are two different things. I too would be torn as to what to do. A less scrupulous person would just have him disappear through the auction pipeline.

I second the hormone test, if not done already. A long talk with a good vet is in order to decide whether there are any medical options, other than the most obvious one.

[craz4crtrs]

I hear your thoughts on euthing. It has been a thought. But I struggle because when he's good, he is so, so good it is heavenly. This spring we won an event on the lowest dressage score I've ever gotten and the most gorgeous stadium and XC I've ever ridden. And 2 events later he quits on XC because he just doesn't want to play. He is loved and admired by many for his talent when he is game. But I've had 2 farriers quit on me and my own family refuses to handle him on the ground.

I am also struggling with some fear now. I never feared him until he charged me when I was in the middle of the paddock. I was there alone and I truly thought I'd be dead. I had a bucket in my hand and I threw it at his head. I know that sounds awful but I was scared out of my mind. He was coming at me full speed with his ears flat back and he was out for blood. I threw the bucket and hit him in the head with it and yelled at him to CUT IT OUT as I scrambled out of the paddock. I know that by me leaving the paddock he learned that he gets what he wants from that behavior but I was not about to stand my ground and fight with him.
Now I find myself leading him and worrying and seeing in my mind that he's going to lose it and attack me. I doubt he would, as he's never attacked when out of his paddock and on lead, but the thought is in my mind.

It's like an abusive relationship. He is good to me at random intervals so I keep loving him when he's trying to kill me.

My friend had a horse like that. He always had decent handling, but always was a horse with issues. Her horse turned badly for the worse and she hauled him up to a good vet and had a discussion. They put him down. The way it was progressing, the consensus was a probable brain tumor.

Have you tried giving him a stiff dose of bute or banamine before the farrier or a situation you can expect him to be bad? If he's better, then that may answer your question. If he is hurting, put him down. Honestly, I'd put him down anyway, your life is worth more than a few good rides.

[Druid Acres]

One last thought before putting the horse down - find a really horse-savvy animal communicator to ask him why the heck he's so mean and impossible. It wouldn't cost a ton and might give you some additional insight. There are several old threads on animal communicators if you do a search.

[murphyluv]

ditto what druidacres said- op has a pm

[onelanerode]

Ugh. I'm so sorry. I've run across one who wasn't wired right, but he wasn't aggressive. He would nip if you weren't watching him, but otherwise he just wasn't there. His eyes were just dead. He went through all the motions, ate his hay, grazed, groomed his buddy, but ... he just wasn't there. :no:



1) You can decide how much money you want to put into this horse for medical diagnostics: blood tests, bone scans, scoping, etc. You may find a medical reason (or combination of reasons) for his behavior. You may even be able to treat those problems and get your horse back. Or you could spend a $hitload of money and still have Mr. Psycho. If you haven't already, a heart-to-heart with your vet about whether this would be a wise way to spend your money might be helpful, if for no other reason than to make you feel better about what you have done and/or what you may pursue.

2) You can turn him out in a big field for a year and just let him be a horse. Minimal interaction with people (just farrier and any vet care he may need). Bring him back after that year and see where he is. He may be a different horse after a year of decompressing. But you may not have that option or be able to afford that. And you may still be stuck with Mr. Psycho.

3) You can do your homework and see if you can find a kind but firm trainer who would be willing to do ~30-90 days with him and see if he/she thinks Mr. Psychopath is rehab material.

4) You could give him a few weeks of whatever makes him happy and then put him down. He is a big liability for you, and there's a decent chance you will never figure out the combination of issues (I do think it's a combination of training/physical/mental issues) and be able to successfully address them such that he becomes a somewhat-solid citizen again. And I'm with Coreene ... there are worse things than death.

Good luck with your decision. It will not be an easy one. :no:

[Roxyllsk]

A friend of mine had a horse years ago who would get agressive towards people, esp if he was turned out with other horses. The vet suggested he'd been proud cut and the owner started him on 'girly' hormone shots. They actually made a HUGE difference with him - it took a few weeks for the hormones to really kick in, but once they did ...

As he got older, she didn't have to give him the shots as frequently.

Might be worth a try ...

[SmokenMirrors]

One last thought before putting the horse down - find a really horse-savvy animal communicator to ask him why the heck he's so mean and impossible. It wouldn't cost a ton and might give you some additional insight. There are several old threads on animal communicators if you do a search.

And when you do this, make sure you have LOTS of money in your account, a bottle of nice red wine to drink, as after you write that big check for a bunch of bullshit your going to need a drink.

Sorry but I think animal communicators are taking people to the cleaners then they themselves are laughing all the way to the bank. Think long and hard before you do this....

[Watermark Farm]

I'm sorry about your horse. He sounds pretty dangerous. I'd be thinking seriously about putting him down before he hurts someone. Think about the liability if someone gets hurt. I hope you have a good umbrella policy! Think about the court case when the prosecuting attorney goes to COTH and finds your thread here!

I rode a gelding that belonged to my trainers. He was very dangerous. Not under saddle, but on the ground. He had been evented to intermediate very successfully, then he contracted meningitis. After that he was VERY scary, would run you down in pasture, strike, kick bite for no reason. He was fine under saddle and was still competed, but you had your heart in your mouth once you were off.

My feeling is that horses are dangerous enough to put up with behavior like you have decribed. If you feel like you have reasonably addressed physical causes, you might think seriously about putting him down. The risk is not worth it!

[MissCapitalSplash]

As I said in my OP, he has been scoped for ulcers and had a full blood panel run. nothing.
I am one to ALWAYS go to physical solutions first. And this horse has turned up nothing.

And for haha's, I actually used an animal communicator with this horse. I wanted to try it for entertainment only. I told her nothing, just his name. She said immediately that he was very abrasive towards her and wanted to be left alone. He "said" that he liked me more than where he was before but that he is worried that if he behaves I will ask him to move up the levels too quickly again. And that he doesn't understand why we don't go away when he tells us too.
She did say he was comfortable and content, he just didn't want to be bothered by work. And that in his past he was made to run hard and work hard and he hated that.
It was interesting but not too informative. Basically she told me he's a jerk, and a lazy jerk.

I never thought about the hormone stuff. Does regumate help?
I'm sort of at a place where I am not sure, to be honest with myself, if I will ever trust him. And that's not really the type of relationship you want when you are galloping xc up to solid obstacles. :(

[FatPalomino]

One last thought before putting the horse down - find a really horse-savvy animal communicator to ask him why the heck he's so mean and impossible.
My friend did this with an old race stallion that was a gem to handle (well,for the right people anyway) but car/horse aggressive.
The horse said he didn't want his testicles cut off! (Well, what males animal volunteers this anyway?) :rolleyes:
He was given away to the old person who would take him- who against the contract sold him to the Amish. I begged her to take him back, she still held the papers- she couldn't. He died there a few months later, they said they found him dead in the morning. It was horrible, as he was such a great horse and could have made a much better gelding.

The vet suggested he'd been proud cut and the owner started him on 'girly' hormone shots.
I thought about this too....

OP, my vet agrees 110% with euth. an aggressive horse such as the ones you describe. He could really hurt someone, you included. You could probably bring along 2 OTTB's for the price of your current horse + his vet bills, and I know the OTTBs would probably appreciate the opportunity. Like someone else said, good luck with your decision, it won't be easy.

[Laurierace]

There are way too many nice horses out there to put up with any of that. You need to end his life before he ends yours.

[okggo]

As I said in my OP, he has been scoped for ulcers and had a full blood panel run. nothing.
I am one to ALWAYS go to physical solutions first. And this horse has turned up nothing.

I never thought about the hormone stuff. Does regumate help?


If the vet check and bloodwork turned up nothing, regumate likely won't do a thing. I'd also point out - people here tend to be leaning toward hormones or proud cut, having worked with stallions and owned one, hormones and testicles don't necessarily make a fire-breathing horrid horse. In fact my stallion was one of the most laid back easy horses I had ever been around.

Can you answer this - how much time and money (and risk) are you willing to put into this horse? If your answer is indefinite then by all means keep hunting for the "cure," but I'm just not that optimistic that a horse like this will be completely changed with some miracle drug or whatever. He now has years of learned behavior, quite engrained into his very being. If it were me, with one that bad - I would put him down. There are plenty of other superstars under saddle without the baggage. Plenty of nice horses in need of a home.

Best of luck, whatever you decide!

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I (the farrier and the vet) are about 99% sure my gelding is proud cut as well, but he doesn't flip over, rear, charge me in the field, kick at me, or bite (I'd tell you what he does, but it isn't my thread).

If it hasn't been done and you want to exhaust all the possibilities then go ahead and check the hormones. Do a couple weeks of gastrogard daily and see if he improves. But if he doesn't (and this might seem harsh)--Your family deserves to have you around and whole! It is dangerous enough handling horses without known issues. A couple months ago my friend was in intensive care for days because a mare kicked out at the horse she was turning out into the pasture and got her instead. Broke her jaw, nose, and lascerated her liver. I THOUGHT SHE WAS GOING TO DIE.

Now we are talking about a known dangerous animal. Someone is going to get hurt.

I'm sorry you are dealing with this [[[[[hug]]]]]

[Equilibrium]

I know this is hard for you, but I'm in agreeance with the other posters who say put him down. I'm not advocating putting every horse which is difficult down, but a rule of thumb has to be the horse meeting you half way. You can send him to someone who will put him in his place, probably with some beatings thrown in if he is as aggressive as you have stated. I mean really what else would you do when a 1500pd animal comes after you? - Hold your ground to show him who's boss?

You've ruled all medical problems out so what's left? Your heart telling you that he has days where he is a superstar. Plenty of horses out there who are superstars most if not all days so I don't see the point in risking you or anyone you love to an upredicatable horse. Just the same as there are plenty of horses out there who if they had just a bit of what you've given this horse, would turn out to be trustworthy wonderful animals. Those are the ones that try and are worth the time.

Good luck
Terri

[katarine]

I hate to say it, but I'd put him down. Aggression to that degree is a huge liability and hazard. What if a tree fell on the fence and he got out? Katie Bar the Door. The what if's are through the roof. What if he takes out your knee cap in one of his cross tie fits?

A highly skilled, careful, very competent trainer I know had his knee cap wrapped around the side of his leg by a horse like this. Now he's laid up just praying he can ever really ride and train and EARN A LIVING again. Can you even imagine? All trying to sort out an animal the owner didn't bother to TELL him, had been through several trainers already. So you give this guy to a 'good home' and he gets sold and then...what happens?

I have an extremely sweet natured, bright, delight of a gelding in my Chip horse. But he can get overwhelmed with too many things going on u/s and he may wheel, plunge, flip his face, attempt to bolt, etc...would like to prop those feet and rear if he could sometimes- but he's NOT aggressive, he's not mean. But if I forget how easily upset he is at this point, and yell at a dog that snaps at us on the road, forget it. I'd just as well hop off and lead him a mile while he recovers from the moment of forgetfulness on my part. Talented, bright, but yes- unpredictable and 100% not for sale. but NOT aggressive. He would not still be with us- were he aggressive like the horse you describe.

I'm sorry- but he'll only be patched, never repaired.

[egontoast]

Only the OP and those that know the horse can know if there is hope for the horse or not.

The rest of us are guessing because not all horses with behavioral issues are lost causes. No way to know if this horse is salvageable based on internet posts.

[Roxyllsk]

I've dealt with stallions off and on for years - I helped take care of a barn where there were several stallions. They were all well behaved, so I do realize not every stallion is a 'fire breathing dragon' by any means.

But I do know in my friend's case of the proudcut gelding, the hormone shots really DID make a huge difference in his attitude. Not saying that it would make any difference in the OP's horse, but it might be worth trying as a 'last-ditch' effort with her horse.

[katarine]

egon, you are correct. But the OP asked for ideas, and one idea is: it's ok to let this end.

[midwestrocket]

I have a rearer...I have come to call it Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde syndrome :eek:

I bought him three years ago this July as a "problem" horse.

I compete in both english and western events and In my experience, problem horses are just the product of their lazy handlers not exhausting every option to get to the bottom of whatever makes them tick.

The horse that I purchased was started on barrels as a 7 year old and over the course of his training began to rear in the alley at rodeos. This particular horse was used as a backup horse to a young girl who's parents handed her everything. The story I got that was whenever she "broke" her preffered mount she would use this horse...Upon the sale, they tried to give me some of the tack their daughter used on him...One of the pieces of equipment was this bike chain looking thing that I am assuming acted as a tie down that wrapped around behind his ears and over his nose...If I had this medevil torture device fastened to my head I think I would rear too!!!:mad: Needless to say even after the metallic devil chain was pitched into the dumpster ONLY in the alley this horse will seize up and refuse to take another step. The only was to get him in the ring without rearing is leading in hand to mount in the back of the arena or being ponied in with a horse on each side.

Obviously something happened to him in the alley and I am still trying to get to the bottom of his anxiety. His rears are big rears. NOt wide eyed crazy rears, just a straight "no way am I walking through there." Just as soon as he stands up he is back to calmly standing until you ask him to move forward again. This behavior only happens at shows so it makes it difficult to address this problem.... With time and patience he is improving..but the rears still happen...its dangerous...it worries me and it is very dangerous.. My horse isn't angry as yours seems to be...but rearing is caused by something...you just have to figure out what it is...If he doesn't shape up, I will let him go. Just because they have moments of greatness doesn't mean you overlook the fact that you needed hobbles and 10cc's of ace and a blindfold to tack the ba$t@rd.

call me a cowboy, but I'll out any bad behavior come hell or high water....if he bites me I'm gona bite him back :winkgrin:
Thats why god invented helmets and saftey vests. :D

Send his bittera$$ back to a trainer.

The vet and I are planning on experimenting with mood stabilizers on my horse next year. the vast majority are good for 60 to 90 days an injection...Perhaps your horses attitude problem is something you can't address until you get him properly medicated? If people can develop into manic depressants and serial killers I don't see any reason why an obviously emotionally troubled horse couldn't try medicine prior to deciding to euthanize him.

[DressageFancy]

Eek.
I wouldn't send him to a cowboy.
ALL of the truly mean horses I've seen were made that way by humans. They didn't come out of the womb that way. In your case, you're describing how he acquired that behavior.

You defiantly need outside help, however, because you're scared (and rightfully so!!!). Maybe there is a behaviorist in your area- at a vet school or big practice- that can help? I think this horse is probably outside the realm of 'normal' help.

A spinoff, but, I wonder how many horses that are balky, not in pain, rearers ever get "fixed" of the problem. I rode one bad mare- if you tried to steer her, she'd buck then rear, a crop only sent her up higher. The AA owner would get off her when this happened. She was a dressage horse, they said making her a jumper helped, but she was quickly sold.... so who knows.

I dissagree on the "out of the womb" statement. Knew a stallion once that was awsome for 20 minuets. Then became dangerous---rear, flip, ect. I knew the folks that raised him as well as his several trainers. These were good horsepeople. His issues did not come from his handlers. They also used this horse for breeding. I know of at least 5 offspring who acted just like daddy---20 minuets ride and up they blew. Stopped using him for stud after that point so only appx 20-22 foals total. Fortunately not all of them inherieted this trait. Dangerouse is not always fixable and definately not worth your (or someone else) life/health. You are already admitting that you are afraid of this guy. Listen to yourself and make your decision accordingly.

[buck22]

He also gets a joint supplement ......
I one had a horse on a joint suppy that made him nuts, turned out it was the msm.

[Tif_Ann]

I agree with egontoast - obviously none of us know for sure. But I think the OP has received good advice.

I'd say for THIS poster, with what is listed, the options are simple:

1. Sell/give the horse to someone who has FULL knowledge of his issues and is willing to try and work with them

OR

2. Put him down.

Sending to a trainer only works if the owner is able to maintain the same follow through. This horse is TESTING to the Nth degree ... and from the sound of his behavior there are very few people that could deal with it. He knows he's big, he knows he's scary, and he's using it to his full advantage.

I agree (based on what is posted and my own experience with a couple similar horses) that he's probably giving lots of earlier signs that are ignored and is looking for leadership ... but this is one horse that needs someone who will ALWAYS be diligent.

Equilibrium said:

I mean really what else would you do when a 1500pd animal comes after you? - Hold your ground to show him who's boss?

Well, yes. You hold your ground until the very last minute, then step aside calmly and let them go by, and IMMEDIATELY come back around and put pressure on from a safe distance and make them move. And you don't let them STOP moving until you decide. But it's a very, very hard and dangerous thing to do and requires not only precise timing and judgment of safety but also the ability to lock down your own fear and just project dominant, no-bull energy onto the horse, plus the ability to read the horse and react IMMEDIATELY to when they actually submit, even for a split second. Balance all that PLUS maintain a backup plan for safety ... definitely not easy. Also not PREFERRED ... a controlled environment to start in is best, so avoiding situations like this at first is important. Mind you - I'm not saying that EVERYONE should respond this way - I'm saying it's what HAS to be done ultimately to get a horse like this to respect you.

I personally would NOT be riding this horse. You don't have his respect on the ground, so there's no way you have his respect under saddle. He obviously LIKES the things you do under saddle, so he's willing to do them - or not, when he's not in the mood - don't for one minute think he's good for you for any other reason. If there's ANY hope of rehabbing him you have to go back to the beginning - get his respect on the ground. Round pen work would be good, if you have one and know how to use it. Obviously you can't get too close to him yet if he's nasty in ties. You need to have a controlled environment where you can maintain a safe distance but also teach him to look to you for leadership and respect you.

Can it be done? Possibly. I don't know the actual horse. Can it be done with where you are and your goals and what you are willing/able to do with this horse? I don't know. Probably not. Are you willing to stop riding him, go back to the basics, and can you get over the fear you already have with him enough to become his leader? Are you able financially to take that hit, bring in a trainer to work with both of you (if that's an option) etc? Meanwhile, are you in a situation where you can reduce liability to other people, while still maintaining some socialization for your horse (ie is he boarded, and does he have to be isolated so no one else gets hurt, which will make things worse, or is he at home where you only have to worry about yourself and he can be with other horses?) You have to weigh your goals and desires with your ability to deal with these problems - and make your decision accordingly.

Only you can answer those kind of questions.

It sounds like you are a great horseperson and you obviously are a caring person - and you are to be commended for the time and effort that you've put into him already. It's very, very difficult to rehab a horse like this ... and even harder to get over the fear of a specific horse once it is there.

I wish you luck with this situation.

[MistyBlue]

FWIW...MCS is a pretty experienced judge of horses. She's bought from auctions/etc for ages and tends to pick the real diamond in the rough 9 out of 10 times. Has dealt with countless issue horses that she trained out of issues herself, she often takes on those others are afraid of. And the preson who went with her on the buying trip that got this horse is the same, another stellar person with sales horses and issue horses. Since MCS tends to downplay issues...I can only imagine this horse is probably acting a whole helluva lot worse than described here. I remember when she got this guy...scares me to think that he's worse than described.
She's definitely *not* a lazy or timid owner by nature. She's had a horse (grey mare Sophie I think) she had for a short while (maybe couple weeks or so) that degloved a leg badly in a freak accident...she spent at least 15-20x that horses' worth in medical bills and rehab, doing absolutely everything and going only to the best clinics. Same with a bay gelding (bay gelding, Slim) who had a plethora of issues and she travelled state to state to get the best treatments available, cost be damned. Knowing MCS, if she's said she's done full medical checks on this horses I'd put money on the fact that she has indeed had everything possible checked twice. And probably through multiple top vets.
MCS, there might not be a method to keep this horse around safely. Be careful around him please.

[whbar158]

Maybe it is just me but I think there are lots of horses out there that are sweet and safe that need jobs and homes. I think it is great that the OP in the past has been able to turn around more difficult horses so that they can have good homes, but I think there comes a time that one must decide if this horse will truly come around and be safe for others. Is the horse going to relapse from whatever the problem is as soon as it gets stressed? Is handled by someone who is unsure? I am not sure I would be able to trust the horse with other people. If I was keeping it in my backyard for the rest of its life then it is a different story, keeping it at a boarding barn or trying to sell it again would not be options and I would strongly think about euth. I don't think I would ever be able to take the horse to a show, I would be scared if it got loose (just by accident) it could hurt someone.

[Equilibrium]

I'm referring to the OP and her situation. It's all fine and well to sit here and tell her what to do, but I would never advocate telling someone to do the above. What I do with mine is irrelavant to what someone else is capable of doing without getting hurt. I deal with a gelding who is a right territorial PIA and he came at me one day - I had turned my gelding out with his herd. Without going into the whole drawn out details of this horse, who isn't that bad, when he came at me teeth barred and galloping, I stood my ground and launched a bucket. He didn't try it again, but having said that, he isn't as this horse is described.

Lots of accomplished horsewomen and men on this board, but most of us have limits. For the money and time I spend with my horses I won't deal with downright dangerous behavoir. Like, I said, I can't make all the effort, the horse has to give and try. Fortunately MOST horses fit into this category. I like my life and won't deal with one like this. I only have so much to give and knowingly putting myself in a dangerous position day in and day out isn't worth it. To those who think it is worth, more power to you. The years I've spent with horses and thinking I could change even the worst of them with time and effort has taught me every now and again an odd horse isn't worth saving.

Terri

[Doodlebug1]

I've known two horses like this. One of whom was a 4* event horse and that was the only reason he lived. Both literally bit so hard that they picked full grown people up off the floor. These were people who broke the 'muzzle rule'.

So, NEVER hit him for biting. That triggers a bite and 'pull back' which if they still have you in their mouth is not fun.

Most importantly BUY A MUZZLE. Both horses I knew like this (and like your horse both were good competition horses with untraceable history) were happy to be muzzled.

I appreciate what you say, that sometimes he's fine, but it's important to get into the muzzle routine and just not to take that chance.

Be warned a whack with a muzzle can hurt. a lot. but it's a lot better than being bitten. With both horses though they actually were more relaxed once they were muzzled.

Hope that helps but really, please consider euth.

[JackieBlue]

I dissagree on the "out of the womb" statement. Knew a stallion once that was awsome for 20 minuets. Then became dangerous---rear, flip, ect. I knew the folks that raised him as well as his several trainers. These were good horsepeople. His issues did not come from his handlers. They also used this horse for breeding. I know of at least 5 offspring who acted just like daddy---20 minuets ride and up they blew. Stopped using him for stud after that point so only appx 20-22 foals total. Fortunately not all of them inherieted this trait. Dangerouse is not always fixable and definately not worth your (or someone else) life/health. You are already admitting that you are afraid of this guy. Listen to yourself and make your decision accordingly.

I'm with you, DF. That's why I asked about his breeding. The tendency to rear, especially under tack, is quite hereditary in my experience. I know of a handful of stallions that became chronic rearers, were deemed too dangerous to ride and were then "retired" to breed. Many of their offspring are more than willing to stand up as well. Some seem to grow out of it or mellow with age, some not so much. I was just curious what line this guy came from because the behavior can be easily attributed to genetics in some cases.

[Equilibrium]

I also just wanted to clarify, I don't know OP, but considering what she has described, I think it's fair to say the horse is probably worse than she lets on and why this is such a dilema for her. I think it's harder with these types of horses when you are a very good horseperson with years of knowledge behind you.

Terri

[Tif_Ann]

Equilibrium - I agree with both of your latest posts 100% :)

[europa]

Perhaps contact one of the BIG TIME horse trainers who ask for problem horses. It might be your last ditch effort. Alot of them look for horses like this to promote themselves.

[trubandloki]

MCS, can not offer you any advice, sorry.

Just want to say that I am sure whatever you decide you are doing right by the horse. We know that you would not stop until you have tried all you can. If you are thinking that putting him down is an option it probably is truly the best option.

[Saidapal]

Only the OP and those that know the horse can know if there is hope for the horse or not.

The rest of us are guessing because not all horses with behavioral issues are lost causes. No way to know if this horse is salvageable based on internet posts.

True, but we can only give opinions on the information we receive, and the information being given is not leading towards a sunshine and roses ending, sadly. Since he even charges you when you go into his pasture it even rules him out as a companion horse. I find this very sad for all involved.

[vacation1]

What a sad, painful situation for the OP. If she does decide to euthanize, I think it would be absolutely reasonable, and possibly the kindest thing. It sounds as if the horse doesn't enjoy himself much, as he reacts to so many normal, unavoidable situations with anger and violence. Poor horse, poor human.

[katarine]

I don't 'know' the OP but I feel I 'know' MistyBlue. When MB says the OP knows what she's doing and is a good handler, I get a feeling the OP IS competent and capable. And, being such, it is HARD to accept a horse as a potentially lost cause.

If the trainer I mentioned wasn't laid up with a removed knee cap, this horse ought to be on his way to MT. But that trainer is out of commission for a while. C/O a horse like this.

OP, you mentioned it is like an abusive marriage. ding ding DING. And for those that insist he CAN be reformed, that it's lazy to fall short of reforming him with training and firmness: would you marry a guy that beat his first wife and hospitalized her, but then got some counseling, and felt good about things now?

[CAH]

As I said earlier, it is hard to make the decision to euthanize an animal - let alone an animal that is healthy and talented.

If I was faced with such a decision, I would probably look into donating to a vet school (with the proper warnings). At least I would know he served a purpose, if not in life then in death.

The only reason I said to check out the hormones was the statement that he went after other horses when humans were around. To me, there is something off base with that behavior. Wonder how he would be out with a group of no nonsense broodmares? If the hormones check out, then at least you have ruled that out. A regular blood panel would not show hormone levels.

And a muzzle sounds like a good idea....

[europa]

Was he an orphan foal or do you know his situation when he was growing up? The poor horse has no idea how to be a horse much less his relationship with humans. I think any horse should be able to be rehabilitated but I am also realistic and totally understand the situation you are in.

IT IS NOT SAFE TO HAVE HIM IN A BOARDING ENVIRONMENT

I do think with proper socialization he could come around..

[HandsomeBayFarm]

thinking out loud here:

food allergey?

has he seen a chiropractor?

[vxf111]

MCS, can not offer you any advice, sorry.

Just want to say that I am sure whatever you decide you are doing right by the horse. We know that you would not stop until you have tried all you can. If you are thinking that putting him down is an option it probably is truly the best option.

Hear hear. If MCS says she has turned over every stone, she's probably turned them over 3x each. She is as fine a horseperson as anyone on these boards. She has given this horse every possible chance.

I side with those who say he ought to be euthanized. Think of all the horses you've saved/helped in your lifetime MCS. If something happens to you (and with such a dangerous animal, it's only a matter of time) you won't be able to do that ever again. There are too many good horses out there, horses that deserve and will come around with your good care/attention. Let this guy go, he's just not right.

[JackieBlue]

As I said earlier, it is hard to make the decision to euthanize an animal - let alone an animal that is healthy and talented.

If I was faced with such a decision, I would probably look into donating to a vet school (with the proper warnings). At least I would know he served a purpose, if not in life then in death.

The only reason I said to check out the hormones was the statement that he went after other horses when humans were around. To me, there is something off base with that behavior. Wonder how he would be out with a group of no nonsense broodmares? If the hormones check out, then at least you have ruled that out. A regular blood panel would not show hormone levels.

And a muzzle sounds like a good idea....

That's called misplaced aggression is a common behavior in humans and aimals alike. Nothing unusual there.

[MistyBlue]

The abusive marriage analogy works pretty well here. Although causes aren't the same...results are.
I've known MCS for quite some time, since she was a kid. I've known her online and personally...she's a good kid (well, adult now) and is definitely knowledgeable, talented and not prone to over react about horses.
Knowing her I really do think this horse is worse than is being described here. She can read body language quite well...but it's not unusual for some really rank horses to never give a single clue as to their intentions for biting or charging or rearing.
I've met only a small amount of truly rank horses considering how many horses I've known well or owned in my lifetime. They're not everywhere, but they *are* out there. And no amount of love or care or training or meds or Black Beauty mentality will fix these types of horses. They will always be dangerous ticking time bombs. Out of the ones I've known, most of them caused catastrophic human injury out of the blue before getting PTS. There are probably more born, but those that are homely looking and not expescially talented are usually sent away long before many get to know them. It's the fantastic looking ones or the uber-talented ones that folks just keep trying with due to their looks or talent...until someone gets hurt. Or killed. I lost a coach to one horse like this...she was shattered so badly by a flip over that she was no longer able to teach. Wheelchair bound for life...horses flipped over while walking on a loose rein. Horse didn't just flip (which he had done before, nothing new) but he twisted on the way down when my coach pushed clear of the fall...that horse made *sure* he landed on her. He got up and went after her again. From a loose rein walk folks.
Tes, some horses are born bad, others are made that way. Doesn't matter how they got there...they need to be PTS. If the Black Stallion crowd has issues with that idea...think of it as for being in the best interest of the horse. Because a horse that acts/reacts that way is simply not happy either.

[JackieBlue]

The abusive marriage analogy works pretty well here. Although causes aren't the same...results are.
I've known MCS for quite some time, since she was a kid. I've known her online and personally...she's a good kid (well, adult now) and is definitely knowledgeable, talented and not prone to over react about horses.
Knowing her I really do think this horse is worse than is being described here. She can read body language quite well...but it's not unusual for some really rank horses to never give a single clue as to their intentions for biting or charging or rearing.
I've met only a small amount of truly rank horses considering how many horses I've known well or owned in my lifetime. They're not everywhere, but they *are* out there. And no amount of love or care or training or meds or Black Beauty mentality will fix these types of horses. They will always be dangerous ticking time bombs. Out of the ones I've known, most of them caused catastrophic human injury out of the blue before getting PTS. There are probably more born, but those that are homely looking and not expescially talented are usually sent away long before many get to know them. It's the fantastic looking ones or the uber-talented ones that folks just keep trying with due to their looks or talent...until someone gets hurt. Or killed. I lost a coach to one horse like this...she was shattered so badly by a flip over that she was no longer able to teach. Wheelchair bound for life...horses flipped over while walking on a loose rein. Horse didn't just flip (which he had done before, nothing new) but he twisted on the way down when my coach pushed clear of the fall...that horse made *sure* he landed on her. He got up and went after her again. From a loose rein walk folks.
Tes, some horses are born bad, others are made that way. Doesn't matter how they got there...they need to be PTS. If the Black Stallion crowd has issues with that idea...think of it as for being in the best interest of the horse. Because a horse that acts/reacts that way is simply not happy either.

Amen, Misty. I think you've said it perfectly in that post. Hey, if I'm JACKIEBlue and you're MISTYBlue, does that make us family?

[CAH]

That's called misplaced aggression is a common behavior in humans and aimals alike. Nothing unusual there.

Actually the OP said he demonstrated the odd behavior, and I agree with her. Been around horses a long time and never saw one attack other horses just because a human entered the picture. Normal herd dynamics, yes. That type of behavior, no.

I've dealt with one in my lifetime. A mare - racehorse. Nasty, charge at you eat you alive type of horse. Not much better on the track. I worried about her when before her racing career was over as she was not breed worthy, and forget selling her as a showhorse.

Fate dealt her the cards - she received a life threatening injury and the owner did the right thing and just put her down.

[amylmac]

I agree with CAH's suggestion-donate to a vet school. I had a pony with similar issues,erratic dangerous behavior. I donated to UofP and they discovered he had a benign brain tumor. I consoled myself by believing he did contribute something to the horse world.

[grayarabpony]

Was he an orphan foal or do you know his situation when he was growing up?

I was wondering about that too. My orphan horse doesn't show that behavior, but the author Jane Smiley had an orphan that would react aggressively to other horses when a human was around.

[Cloverbarley]

MissCapitalSplash; I have (or should I say, had) a horse who behaved in exactly the same manner as yours is behaving. 3 years on and she doesn't behave like this anymore. Actually she is very well behaved and rarely even puts her ears back anymore. She is a nice equine citizen now but she is still kept in a carefully engineered manner in that no other person has access to her field without me being there to oversee her. I have absolutely no advice for you though as all I did with her was leave her for 2 years in her field with all her friends. I caught her up daily for the first 2 years (just like you, catching her whilst I was out of the field and then once I had a good hold of her I could enter the field) and somehow, for some reason or other, she started to just accept that this was what I did every day. I've had a year of her being very good and I backed her and am now riding her with no problems whatsoever.

[threedogpack]

"He is not turned out with other horses. He is actually ok with them unless there is a human in the equation. He will then attack the others. Very odd. You can watch them all getting along through the window of the house, but if you go out there he starts attacking the others."

this is mis-placed or re-directed aggression and you see it often in dogs who are tied or behind a fence. They can't reach the object of their attention and so turn their aggression on who/what is closest.

I have a dog at my house right now that came because of serious behavioral issues. I knew him as a 2 year old when he had never met a stranger. I also had a fine litter of 4 puppies by him and all 4 of them are outstanding, stable individuals. For those two reasons I believe that he learned the aggressive behavior sometime between when I met him the first time and where he was when he arrived at my home. Because of the issues and the depth of those issues, if anything should ever happen to me, I've left very clear instructions with several family members and good friends that he is to be euthed if he cannot live with me. It has been my experience that animals with problems of the scope he has will never be what he used to be. Never. Keep that in mind when you read the rest of my message.

*IF*, and I stress the if heavily, I were to ever decide to take on an animal with such serious and long term behavioral issues the first thing I'd do would be to limit access to primary resources. Food, water, social contact...even daylight. There would be nothing for free. Want water? Do X while I add a small amount of water to your empty bucket. Want hay? Do Y for me. When I deal with aggression I never meet aggression with more aggression unless I'm in dire trouble (as with you in the paddock). Especially with horses like this one, they often will up the ante so instead I control the environment. Want water? Great, stick your muzzle in the feed bin *and keep it there* while I add 1/4 bucket. Want more? Ask nicely, ears up and get that muzzle back in the feed bin. Bring it out, I take my bucket, turn off the light and leave. I would use protected contact with him for the next 12 months. He would come to understand his very life depended on me and what he can do FOR ME.

That said, I would also assume that the behavior I elicit in that environment would only hold in that environment and that the behavior will fall apart in other places.

Good luck OP, you sound like you are very experienced and have a wide range of experience. I would probably question if this is the best use of my resources if I were in your very unenviable shoes.

[Cloverbarley]

Good luck OP, you sound like you are very experienced and have a wide range of experience. I would probably question if this is the best use of my resources if I were in your very unenviable shoes.

I agree. I'm not so sure I would have persevered with this horse I have now had she been my own horse. Thankfully her owner gave me carte blanche on how to deal with her, giving me no time constraints, with no expectations and, with euthansia being the only alternative option, she is a very happy owner now. It goes without saying how rare owners like this are and had she pulled the plug at any time I would have respected her decision (it crossed my mind more than a few times).

[JackieBlue]

Again, it cannot be forgotten that this horse rears and will flip over backward under tack. That's enough of a deal breaker in my opinion without the nastiness on the ground. If he were perfect under saddle, but dominant/aggressive on the ground that would be one thing, but this is an animal that's all around dangerous. A whole different ball of wax than one with respect issues.

[egontoast]

Again, it cannot be forgotten that this horse rears and will flip over backward under tack

I missed that part. That does change things.

[goodmorning]

My friend was in the same situation. She had a Depo IMPLANT (not just the injection that was useless) and now has a completely different horse. It might not be easy to find a vet who will do this or knows how, depending on your location (some vets seem to have ethical issues with this but when its euth vs. depo the choice is pretty easy -- more than a few very reputable vets wish they knew how to do this as well). I will say he is still a naughty horse, but not nearly as dangerous. I believe he 2 rows of depo pills injected into his hind end every 6 weeks. I know some trainers that have the implants done on every gelding in the barn, so it can't be that big of a secret.

[Cloverbarley]

Again, it cannot be forgotten that this horse rears and will flip over backward under tack. That's enough of a deal breaker in my opinion without the nastiness on the ground. If he were perfect under saddle, but dominant/aggressive on the ground that would be one thing, but this is an animal that's all around dangerous. A whole different ball of wax than one with respect issues.
That's what my mare I had for 16 years used to do. It can be overcome with a different mindset, however it can be difficult to work against what we have always been taught. I broke away and it worked (to a degree) for me and my mare, but then I knew that she was going to have to be with me for life. If this poster is not planning to keep the horse for the rest of its life, then I am not sure that continuing is the best thing for hers or the horse's best interests.

[vxf111]

My friend was in the same situation. She had a Depo IMPLANT (not just the injection that was useless) and now has a completely different horse. It might not be easy to find a vet who will do this or knows how, depending on your location (some vets seem to have ethical issues with this but when its euth vs. depo the choice is pretty easy -- more than a few very reputable vets wish they knew how to do this as well). I will say he is still a naughty horse, but not nearly as dangerous. I believe he 2 rows of depo pills injected into his hind end every 6 weeks. I know some trainers that have the implants done on every gelding in the barn, so it can't be that big of a secret.

Depo is neither a pill nor an implant. I don't know what your friend's horse had done to it, but it wasn't depo. Depo is an injectible IM administration of hormones.

[JackieBlue]

MCS, if you do continue to ride this horse, keep in mind that sometimes it's the simplest things that cause even major behavioral displays such as rearing. I've retrained a number of serial rearers inn the past, but the most memorable was my own large green pony prospect when I was 12. As soon as I got her home and started riding she started showing me some pretty scary stuff. She never flipped or fell as a result of her rearing, but she sure did stretch skyward! They were not little rears by any stretch of the imagination. She would stop, plant her feet and up she went if I urged her forward at all. If I tried a crop or whip, much worse. The more leg I'd put on, the higher the rears. My trainer wanted to make dog food out of her and I think my parents were probably hoping he would.
Shortly after acquiring this pony and discovering the rearing thing my family moved far, far away from my trainer and boarding barn and I had to change trainers. She pulled her balking and rearing stunt during my first lesson with new trainer and he got behind us, kicking the fly ash at her hind end to chase her forward. She'd take a few steps and the balk and go bipedal again. Upon realizing that the chasing wasn't working he walked up to her head and opened her mouth to take a look. Then he said, "Wait right here and don't ask her to move". He went into the barn, came back out with a hole punch and started punching holes in her cavesson. He tightened the noseband as much as he could, made sure to free up her skin and eliminate pinching and then told me to walk her forward. I swear that from that point on the pony never, ever reared again. In fact, I brought her along through the large pony ranks and ended up with a made pony and even qualified and went to Pony Finals more than once.
The trainer told me that when he peeked in her mouth her tongue was over the bit, so naturally I had no leverage and no control. Now, your horse may have different reasons for his rearing and in general I'm pretty quick to write off a rearer (it's just too dangerous), but what type of bit/bridle to you ride him in? Do you think he might be able to get his tongu over the bit?

[Mach Two]

I hear your thoughts on euthing. It has been a thought. But I struggle because when he's good, he is so, so good it is heavenly. This spring we won an event on the lowest dressage score I've ever gotten and the most gorgeous stadium and XC I've ever ridden. And 2 events later he quits on XC because he just doesn't want to play. He is loved and admired by many for his talent when he is game. But I've had 2 farriers quit on me and my own family refuses to handle him on the ground.

I am also struggling with some fear now. I never feared him until he charged me when I was in the middle of the paddock. I was there alone and I truly thought I'd be dead. I had a bucket in my hand and I threw it at his head. I know that sounds awful but I was scared out of my mind. He was coming at me full speed with his ears flat back and he was out for blood. I threw the bucket and hit him in the head with it and yelled at him to CUT IT OUT as I scrambled out of the paddock. I know that by me leaving the paddock he learned that he gets what he wants from that behavior but I was not about to stand my ground and fight with him.
Now I find myself leading him and worrying and seeing in my mind that he's going to lose it and attack me. I doubt he would, as he's never attacked when out of his paddock and on lead, but the thought is in my mind.

It's like an abusive relationship. He is good to me at random intervals so I keep loving him when he's trying to kill me.

I quit reading other posts at this point. If you had a husband or boy friend who beat the living shit out of you, and you had run for your life on a regular basis.....sorry, honey, this is going to sound harsh, but some of us have been through these kinds of relationships before (both human and horse) and what kind of death wish, and beaten up self esteeem makes you love this kind of horse? Put that nasty thing down tomorrow, and spend some quality time with yourself, reminding yourself that you NEVER need to put up with that again. You sound like an educated horse person, and I know it's hurting you to give up....but save your life here, OK?

[sdlbredfan]

Euthanasia, sorry, but these behaviors are just too dangerous. ("The more serious issue, however, is that he charges you in his paddock" and the "if provoked will flip himself over backwards"). Whether it is brain tumor or learned behavior, a horse this dangerous needs to be PTS...it is just not worth the risk of possible loss of human life from being around him. Ideally, either do the donation to Vet school or at least get a necropsy done and tell us what is found. I would be willing to bet money (if I had any to spare, LOL) that this horse either has a brain tumor or has some other brain abnormality.

[DebbieB]

It looks as though it will eventually be the morgue for the OP and then a bullet for the evil horse.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[egontoast]

The horse is not "evil" and the horse is not like an abusive SO anymore than a cat is evil or like an abusive SO because it tortures and kills a mouse. They are what they are for whatever reason and they live in the moment.

Nothing wrong with putting a dangerous horse to sleep. Nothing at all . It's a very wise thing to do in many cases.

But, please, the horse is not 'evil" and no, it is not the same as a human who has the capacity to have a conscience and understand fully the results of his actions.

editing to add: I don't see anyone on this thread , maybe I missed it, who would criticize the OP at all if she decides to put the horse down.

[Hip]

Splash, if you ignore all other advice in this thread, please heed this. You and the people who love you will not care one lick how "golden" he CAN be at times when he crushes your pelvis, bites your face off or outright kills you. I have personally known 2 professional, very talented trainers who were killed when a horse went up and flipped.
Doing well at an event is exciting and rewarding and all, but can you hug him and kiss his nose at the end of the day? I highly doubt that either of you are enjoying your time together as much as you should be. Your horse may be very capable of his job, but he clearly does not like it. You say he's gotten worse over time. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. This isn't going to go away and you'd be hard pressed to find someone to tackle such a dangerous project. And even if you beat the rear out of him successfully (not likely), what then? Will he like eventing or people anymore than he does now? Any less?
I know you're in a hard spot, but shouldn't you be having fun with a horse that loves you? And shouldn't an unhappy horse be released from his suffering one way or another?

Bingo. I don't have time to read all the posts but this one hits the nail on the head, as far as I'm concerned.

[HenryisBlaisin']

Sometimes, horses have issues that can't be "fixed." Or at least not with current veterinary technology. I believe that there can be and are mental illnesses that affect horses-just as a syndrome like bi-polar can affect a person.

I don't think this horse is testing you. Horses are self preservationists, and a normal horse will NOT throw itself over backwards-that can injure the horse, and also puts it in a vulnerable position. I was actually discussing this with my BO about a horse he knew-one minute it would be a normal horse, and the next, it was trying to KILL you. Not nip, not intimidate or test-kill. The horse had no health issues that the vet could find. They tried the training methods mentioned above, they tried feed changes and supplements, different tack, different people-and finally came to the sad decision to put the horse down after it tried-and nearly succeeded-to bite a handler in the face.

We can manage the mental health of people with medication, therapy, and restraint. With a 1000-pound horse, that is not possible to a degree which will ensure people's safety. I know it sounds awful-we don't put mentally ill people to sleep!-but just like a person who is a danger to society, they need to be treated in a manner that they cannot be a threat.

I'm really sorry you're in this position-it must be heartbreaking. I truly hope your horse can be fixed-but there may also be no root problem stemming from prior training or treatment. If that's the case, you can set the horse free from mental pain and confusion and yourself free from fear and know that you are doing the right thing for both of you.

[stoicfish]

And for haha's, I actually used an animal communicator with this horse. I wanted to try it for entertainment only. I told her nothing, just his name. She said immediately that he was very abrasive towards her and wanted to be left alone. He "said" that he liked me more than where he was before but that he is worried that if he behaves I will ask him to move up the levels too quickly again. And that he doesn't understand why we don't go away when he tells us too.
She did say he was comfortable and content, he just didn't want to be bothered by work. And that in his past he was made to run hard and work hard and he hated that.
It was interesting but not too informative. Basically she told me he's a jerk, and a lazy jerk.
:(

OMG what if she right? :o

Seriously I do think she is right. Animals tend not to rationalize there behavior, if they are happy, they act happy and if they are grumpy or mad....
The hard part is deciding what you need to do. Euth. might be one answer. I like the idea of giving him a chance, by turning him out for a year and then see how he is. Find a huge field with not a lot/no human contact with drafts for him to play with. He might decide his life wasn't so bad, and they might work better than a "cowboy". You do not meet horses like this very often because they are a herd animal and if they are too much of a @ss, they will likely find themselves alone, and people tend to not want them either. I have seen changes in attitude (never seen one this extreme though) by putting them in with an established herd, and drafts will not take much crap from him.
I am guessing the problem will become worse as everyone becomes more afraid of him. But good luck and I hope you find a solution that you are comfortable with.

[egontoast]

And for haha's, I actually used an animal communicator with this horse. I wanted to try it for entertainment only. I told her nothing, just his name. She said immediately that he was very abrasive towards her and wanted to be left alone. He "said" that he liked me more than where he was before but that he is worried that if he behaves I will ask him to move up the levels too quickly again. And that he doesn't understand why we don't go away when he tells us too.
She did say he was comfortable and content, he just didn't want to be bothered by work. And that in his past he was made to run hard and work hard and he hated that.
It was interesting but not too informative. Basically she told me he's a jerk, and a lazy jerk.
:(



So he's "comfortable and content" and he's just a "lazy jerk" according to his mindreader.

Anthropomorphic drivel. Why do intelligent and experienced horse people forget everything they know about the nature of the horse and give credence to this hogwash.

[Lulu]

Personally, I would suspect that this horse has something medically wrong in his brain. Here's some information on medical causes of equine aggression.

http://www.petplace.com/horses/aggression-in-horses/page3.aspx

Who knows... maybe there's some vet somewhere researching these sorts of abnormalities who needs subjects.

And then, there's this guy...

http://marvwalker.com/attack.htm

I'm so sorry for what you're going through.

[Lulu]

also check out this book... on page 114, the author talks about some drugs used to treat severe aggression in horses, namely fluoxetine, which I believe is prozac.

http://books.google.com/books?id=q-26Cz4t-P0C&lpg=PA114&ots=ljF7ZwCAQV&dq=%22aggression%20in%20horses%22%20fluoxetine&pg=PA114#v=onepage&q=%22aggression%20in%20horses%22%20fluoxetine&f=false

[stoicfish]

So he's "comfortable and content" and he's just a "lazy jerk" according to his mindreader.

Anthropomorphic drivel. Why do intelligent and experienced horse people forget everything they know about the nature of the horse and give credence to this hogwash.

Not saying the lady was a psychic, but she stated the obvious. The horse is a jerk. As far as anthropomorphism, horses do have personalities, that is obvious to me. I think her guessing why he is a jerk, is kind of funny but never the less the horse is a jerk. We might tend to tend color them with our own experiences, just as we do with other humans or try to think in human terms why he turned out that way, which is not helpful because they are a horse with different wiring. When I said she was right it was about the horse having an undesirable personality. Plus the post made me laugh (and my horses when I read it to them……)

[Marshfield]

It really sounds as though you've checked him over for all possible physical issues. If you want to try the cowboy route, two well regarded ones in New England that I know of are Joe Forrest and Terry McClare http://www.wolfrunfarm.com/WRF201.htm

I do think that euthanasia though is your best answer. I've met a few horses that were assholes from birth. One was a PMU foal that despite very skilled handling grew up to be dangerous to handle both on the ground and under tack. The other was a well-bred warmblood foal who was awful from the get go despite skilled handling.

[MissCapitalSplash]

Thank you everyone. You have given me much to think about. The thing that stands out most is that I love myself and my family and I am not sure any horse is worth the risk of losing me. While any horse could have an accident, it just seems stupid to ride one that has a higher risk of doing so.
I truly love this gelding, I do. If I could wave a magic wand I would! I get so down and sad and angry all at once. I want to know WHY he is like this. But then, I think perhaps his brain is just wired this way and it's no one's fault. I have truly never ever seen a horse like this. He is so so ANGRY. I've tried to help him and I've given him the benefit of the doubt so many times. But he may just be beyond help.
I also must be real with myself that I may never trust him, regardless of how "fixed" he may seem.

I will keep you posted on what I decide, there is a lot of soul searching to be done.

[magicteetango]

The more fixed he seems, the less you need to let your guard down. That's a big part of what you need to consider here: Do I want to continue riding and/or handling a horse I can never relax around, whom I can never trust?

For me, the answer is no. The enjoyment of these animals is the depth of their understanding, the loyalty they can show, and the union between a horse and it's rider. That's not what you will be getting here.

[MistyBlue]

You'll do the right thing Splash...you always do.

[Plumcreek]

A "tough professional trainer" I know had a similar horse, and did this: Rigged up a Running W on the horse and had an assistant stand with him while he longed the horse at a walk. When horse turned and came at him, the assistant ran out far enough sideways to pull the Running W ropes and dump the horse. They then trussed up the horse, threw a tarp over it and beat the daylights out of the tarped horse with brooms. Then left the horse to lay there for awhile. He said it changed the horse's attitude and agression, with no need to repeat. He said he wanted to save the horse's life, and that is what it took, and I believe it. This was not an otherwise abusive trainer, just a practical and experienced one.

I guess you have to decide if your horse is really worth risking something similar in the way of an 'intervention', and then risking it will work as hoped and not backfire. You have done the right thing by searching for a physical reason, and certainly have given this horse many chances. Too many nice horses in the world. If it was my horse, I would be thinking along the lines of euthanasia.

[Arab/WBGirl]

I agree with all who recommend euthanasia. There are too many good horses out there now for next to nothing to risk your life trying to save one who in all likelihood cannot be saved. Let him go, and save one who might actually want to be saved. Your life is MUCH more valuable than his. If virtual strangers agree, then I am certain your family, friends and loved ones do too. Good luck, and please be careful.
Dawn

[sdlbredfan]

That is beyond absurd and is abuse, not training."When horse turned and came at him, the assistant ran out far enough sideways to pull the Running W ropes and dump the horse. They then trussed up the horse, threw a tarp over it and beat the daylights out of the tarped horse with brooms."
:(

[Hip]

A "tough professional trainer" I know had a similar horse, and did this: Rigged up a Running W on the horse and had an assistant stand with him while he longed the horse at a walk. When horse turned and came at him, the assistant ran out far enough sideways to pull the Running W ropes and dump the horse. They then trussed up the horse, threw a tarp over it and beat the daylights out of the tarped horse with brooms. Then left the horse to lay there for awhile. He 'said' it worked and horse had a different attitude afterward.

Actually, I've seen this in person when I was a kid on the ranch horses that were flat vicious. (Over 40 yrs ago...) These horses were mainly 7-8 years old before being broke and a few didn't appreciate how life was going to be or they were just mean, but they had to be tough to deal with going over ranchlands and chasing mama cows (who weren't too nice either). But the ranchhands didn't need to die either, trying to fork that horse.

While in today's world, we are mostly appalled, this has its place. I read Marv Walker's page and I have to agree. When it's the last thing you can do for/with a horse, drastic measures are called for...or just send him on to the killers or euth. He mentions where he did something on a horse to get the upper hand, you'll just have to read it to understand what I'm talking about and how it's spawned a real internet discussion.

Personally, again, there are too many nice, sweet horses out there that can do the job and not much reason (unless you're a GP rider and will put up with anything...) to deal with a rogue. I'll never put up with a wackadoo horse again and with prices being what they are right now, there isn't any reason to.

[Hip]

Depo is neither a pill nor an implant. I don't know what your friend's horse had done to it, but it wasn't depo. Depo is an injectible IM administration of hormones.

I think I read somewhere that it's a DEPAsomething implant. Can't think where I saw that...anyway, it has to do with irrational behaviors. Maybe I saw it in one of the links previously posted.

[MissCapitalSplash]

The running W story is scary, but in honesty when I'm lunging this horse I wish I had that option a few times. When asked for an upward transition on the lunge, he will turn and charge you. Last time we were at the vet, the assistant was lunging him for a soundness exam. He was trotting around with his ears back per usual and she asked him to canter. He turned and came at her. Luckily me yelling "KNOCK IT OFF" and her using the chain she had over his nose, we got him to stop. But the vet looked at me and said "That horse is a crazy SOB."
When I lunge him at home, I always use a chain over his nose, which is something I am usually adamant against. If he even looks at me with a snarky face, I send him backwards with the chain until he cuts the crap and then back to work he goes.
And to those that mentioned a muzzle- he has one. We call it his "party hat." I have a lot of bruises from it but it's better than the teeth.

[buck22]

I have probably just signed my death warrant on this board with this reply - especially since I'm shooting from the hip here and writing out of emotion without stoppign to think first - but I can't keep this in any longer....

Splash, you have a tremendous amount of people rallying to your support. You are praised as a good trainer and handler of rough horses, and someone who will go to the ends of the earth to care for them. This is wonderful, I love to hear of people who truly care about their animals. They are rare, and wonderful.

With so much support, I decided to back out of this thread because I felt that I perhaps had mis-read you earlier as being well intentioned but a little bit starry-eyed and without a solid enough background to handle such a horse, but reading the below is confirming my original hunch.

You don't seem to be taking the necessary steps to actually rehab and recondition this horse, I don't think that you understand whats involved. I'm not saying that you should stick it out, I'm not saying that I think people should be put in harm's way for the sake of every animal, and I'm not saying that you're a bad bad person to consider euthing him. All of these choices are yours to make and no one should pass judgment until they've walked a mile in your shoes... but what *does* bother me is that in this thread, the horse is being made to sound like the devil, like he is out to get people, "a jerk, a lazy jerk", or "evil" and thankfully eggon jumped on that one.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you in any way, you're in a tough spot, but I"m getting soap box here....


[QUOTE=MissCapitalSplash;4445994]The running W story is scary, but in honesty when I'm lunging this horse I wish I had that option a few times.
devices like this should only have to be used once.


When asked for an upward transition on the lunge, he will turn and charge you.
this is where a I have a huge problem. if this is so, then you and your horse are not ready for upward transitions on the longe, you need more work before you get to that point.

Last time we were at the vet, the assistant was lunging him for a soundness exam.
this is wrong. vets, farriers, bo's, the people that care for our horses should never be put in a dangerous position. it is wrong to allow an animal who is dangerous to longe to be longed by the vet. It is the owners responsibility - if it takes 40 nights and 40 days - to do whatever is necessary to make the animal safe to be around, at least for small routine things, or the owner must do the handling. Were my animal not able to be longed by my vet, I would insist that my vet keep a clear distance and I do it.

He was trotting around with his ears back per usual
you say the horse gives no sign, there's your sign. If you show up to the barn one morning, and go fetch your horse from his stall and he flattens his ears... there's your sign... there is your warning that your horse may very well charge you or bite you today, hours later.

I am afraid you are not seeing the obvious. your horse is trying to tell you something and you're not listening.


and she asked him to canter. He turned and came at her.
he had his ears pinned. he was telling you it was coming... and you're surprised he did?

Luckily me yelling "KNOCK IT OFF" and her using the chain she had over his nose, we got him to stop. But the vet looked at me and said "That horse is a crazy SOB."
you're lucky you have a nice vet, my vet may well have dropped me as a client, and be right to do so.

When I lunge him at home, I always use a chain over his nose, which is something I am usually adamant against.
if you're adamant why do you use it? because its the only thing giving you a shred of control... why? because. you're. not. ready. to. longe.

This is where I think perhaps you might not understand, handling a horse with deeply ingrained behavior issues, like the ones you describe, require setting new ground rules and starting from scratch. Start by teaching the horse how to stand in your presence, then how to halter, then how to lead (it is astounding how many horses do not lead well, not leading well is a hint of so many other issues), then how to tie, then how to give to pressure, then how to move off when asked, etc, etc, etc... and *build* to longing one day. You don't just take an animal, 'oh he doesn't longe well, here stick this chain on him" and expect him to be behaved. It sometimes works, it often doesn't... manytimes you get a marginally obedient animal, who sulks and still had the same thoughts in the back of his mind, just not as quick to act on it. Not good. The animals way of thinking must be changed, the *desire* to come at you at all must be squelched. He must be re-trained to realize that attacking is a poor choice, that life can be much happier and much easier should he choose to obey our wishes, which we will always make easy for him to accomplish.

Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm not trying to attack you, but I love horses so much, and I've seen this so. many. times. that I get all wound up about it. THIS is precisely why I love *difficult* horses.

Now, I haven't seen your animal, perhaps his soul is as black as tar and he truly wants to destroy all humans. Well, then, I'd put a horse down like that too. But (and I'm nobody, I'm no one special or well trained or anything) in my humble and limited travelings, I've yet to come across one that wasn't just given a chance for a fresh start and new way of understanding. Which means starting over, putting riding ambitions to the side, and rolling up your sleeves and going to work.



If he even looks at me with a snarky face, I send him backwards with the chain until he cuts the crap and then back to work he goes.
but does it have any lasting effect? any real meaning? apparently not. (for the record, imhe, shanking a difficult horse is just a fast way to get them perpetually pissed off at you).

Someone, either on this thread or the spinoff said "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome".... they were referring to trying to manage a difficult horse... well, above is a definition of insanity imho... you keep going to longe (ride, tie, bathe, tack, [insert activity of choice]) the horse without having gone back to restart and change his way of thinking and expecting a different outcome.

You asked before, pp, if the horse doesn't step over on the xties, what do I do? you train him. if the horse doesn't do as requested, you train him how to comply with your wishes.

Do you know, his charging could very well be him being exasperated with being forced? Do you know, his pissiness on the longe could very well be because of the chain?

Its very possible this horse is man-killer and should be put down. It is your choice, and even if he were a lamb in wolves clothing I wouldn't hold the decision against you for a moment because *you* have to live with him and pay his bills, not me. BUT, it is also entirely possible that this horse is just burnt out and you and he are having some serious communication errors [read: you're not getting what he's saying, and he's at the end of his rope]. Its within the realm of possibility (imho) that with help, you might be able get him to come around for you yet.

Horses have an unfathomable ability to forgive and try and trust again.


And to those that mentioned a muzzle- he has one. We call it his "party hat."
its not funny and its not cute. its sad. and its quite possibly (as I haven't seen your horse) a band aid for good training.


I have a lot of bruises from it but it's better than the teeth.
ok thats a little martyrish sounding, and I personally don't care for it at all. imo, people who knowingly take on difficult horses never deserve a pity party. vent, sure, but no woe is me. ever. its unfair to the horse, and its damaging to morale.

dangerous. evil. crazy SOB. lazy. jerk... these are all damaging terms. its anthropomorphism and its damaging to the horse. It colours and distorts our view and how we feel, and how we approach.

Again, I mean no harm, I mean no disrespect, I apologize if anything is taken out of context. I'm nobody, I'm not a horse trainer, I'm not holier than thou, and I'm not blaming you at all... I just needed to share my 2¢ on the matter, because, well, because its something I'm deeply committed to.

I really wish you the best of luck.

Sorry in advance if I offended anyone, absolutely not my intent.

[MistyBlue]

Well there's being deeply committed and there's being committed.
You state you have limited experience and limited exposure to many horses and not a trainer...yet you have a laundry list of why a horse you've never met owned by a person you've never met is wrong, a martyr, etc. And all because you love horses so much.

The horse isn't ready to longe or do upward transitions? The horse is trained, trained, trained. Basically a finished horse. It's his attitude, not his lack of training. And he was brought up slowly and well, not rushed. He knows his job.

Splash also loves horses, she wouldn't have saved umpteen million of them if she didn't. She has come across tons of horses from all walks of life, has worked with them, trained them, etc.

Those of us who do have experience with many multiples of horses of all types and who have come across this type of "oddly wired" horse more than once can recognize the signs. And we also all love horses a lot. Wouldn't be working with them if we didn't.

It's fine to have strong feelings about something, but makes very little sense to grab a soapbox moment to air the strong feelings if the airing doesn't include any experience whatsoever in horses like this.

[egontoast]

I'm on the same wavelength as buck22. Whatever the OP does is fine but some weird things have been said on this thread .

The running W solution does not appall me so much if done once as a last ditch effort to save the horse from the other option. It is a little like the the John Lyons 3 second rule. In other words, the horse has to fear for his life without being physically injured and know he just made the worst mistake of his life and must never do it again. If it works, great. Not sure I could go there myself but I understand it.

I think that might take me out of the Black Beauty sect.

I would not rule out physical problems though . No one would blame the OP for putting the horse down but it would be interesting to have a post mot\rtem.

This horse has chosen fight over flight for whatever reason. Maybe because he can and it is working for him or maybe he has a physical reason. Don't know. I'm not buying the devil thing though.

[Cloverbarley]

Buck; I don't know how other people on here will take your post, however you have clarified a lot of the points I was trying to insinuate earlier in my short posts. The horse I have here who used to be what Capitals horse is like now, is no longer like this anymore. As I said previously unless I actually went through it all in my mind to figure out why exactly this horse no longer displays these undesirable "qualities", I'd wager a deep hunch that by me turning this horse out 24/7 for 2 years with regular but non-taxing handling daily, played a big part in this horse learning to quietly accept that people are not something to be attacked or feared. I am just so happy that the owner allowed both me and the horse this time to come to terms with what is acceptable and what is not. For the horse here, that time has paid off big time and she is now a very nice equine citizen. I do not want any backward steps and that is the main reason I keep her separate from other owners at my barn. In time I fully expect this horse to accept all humans as casually as any other horse.

The other point you made, again one I touched on briefly; please people, why do you feel the need to pigeonhole the horse as being a "rearer, bucker, vicious, aggressive"? This was my point, once you do this it is hard to change how you view the animal. It's just a "difficult horse" and I feel by not labelling it as this or that (and everything else inbetween), will help the owner/handler to move on forwards and not be stuck in the past.

See the horse with fresh eyes. Leave your emotions at home. Put the past behind you. Start afresh. By doing this, I think you give the partnership new hope.

Now as a disclaimer (*obviously*), this horse may well be hotwired in some fashion which means it really does have a screw loose, in which case you make the decision to do something totally different to what has been suggested above. You end it.

[MistyBlue]

The devil? Nah, no such thing as a demon horse. Nothing evil about the horse, he has just chosen fight over flight. The problem with horses like this is they choose fight over flight in instances that require neither...nothing scary or painful going on and yet the horse decides to fight.
The flying W or 3 second rule does not work on animals like this. It only enhances their fight response and seems to cement their "all other mammals must be fought off at every opportunity" response.
He fights...and when a 1000+ lb animal truly fights back (instead of just a nip or kick) there isn't a human out there that will win the fight. So the fight response works for that horse. He'll use it to get out of everything and anything..not just for scary situations. And then some go whole hog and will fight for no apparent reason...like charging in turnout. Nobody is making the horse do anything. Not even approaching it to catch it. Entering a paddock or just being seen outside and it starts a fight...I've seen it with a small amount of horses. It's certainly not common, but it's not unheard of at all.
Buy through auctions often, many horses annually for a decade or so and you'd be surpised at how often there are horses who are just like this. That they get to a point where trying to retrain the behavior out isn't going to happen...because it's either too dangerous for the people trying or the horse is set in it's path and will never stop fighting.
It's a sad sad thing for the horse, the horse is not evil but has a massive major glitch in it's responses and thought processes that removing it via euthanasia is usually the kindest most responsible thing for not just the people...but also for the horse.
As much as we all adore horses, they can't all be saved through love. Or training. Or drugs.

[Cloverbarley]

. And we also all love horses a lot. Wouldn't be working with them if we didn't.


You know, I read this "love" business a lot on COTH. Am I the only person here who can categorically state that no I do not love these difficult horses I have in for rehab/training/etc.? I like them well enough and I hope that they come right in the end, they generally do, but as to doing it because I love them? No I don't love them. I do it to give them a future and I can't see where emotions play any part whatsoever in the rehabbing of them. Maybe that is the problem here? "Love" tainting the clarity of the situation?

Sorry if this sounds hard hearted, it's not, I own numerous horses and truthfully, I only have 2 that I love but it makes no difference, and has no part, in how I treat all of my horses.

[egontoast]

Since I have one in the barn that everyone said put down and is the poster child for it can be done, I guess I am influenced by that just as you, misty, are influenced by different horses in your past with different outcomes.

The OP asked for input and I don't think she was asking for just one slant on it. It's fine to offer different views of it. Not sure it's necessary to characterize those who have a different slant on it as trying to cure the horse with loooove/ having black beauty syndrome / or whatever.:confused:

I don't see anyone begging the Op not to put the horse down.

[grayarabpony]

Some of the things the OP said make me wonder too: feeling bad about hitting him in the head with a bucket, for example. OP you should not feel bad about that. You had to protect yourself.

[MistyBlue]

I've had or worked with a handful or two that were "unsalvageable" too. I love the difficult ones, always have. My mare Misty Blue was a witch on wheels...she was scheduled to go back to auction red tagged (not for riding, too dangerous) when I got her. She charged pople all the time, tried going through fences to get at them, would lay down or roll if she didn't feel like being ridden...or stretch her head around and take a chunk out of your foot.
My mare Galopin I got for a song in price because she was returned so many times to the seller for being unhandleable. She crowded people, dragged them, went through fences like they were kindling, reared in hand and under saddle, etc. Only reason I even went to look at her was because her ad said "alpha mare." (that's my kryptonite, LOL) The seller's comment when I called to some see her was, "Really? You want to see Galopin? She's really not a good horse, pretty dangerous."
Both were fine after some work...all of it was behavioral and neither had health or pain issues. Just smart-ass horses who learned using their fight response all the time for any reason at all got them out of any and all riding. Misty always had some glitches...she'd sit on farriers if given half a chance or take off with riders she didn't like. But handling her was easy as pie over time and she was an angel at giving pony rides. Gal just turned out to be an angel all around...on the ground and under tack. Once in a while if she was really scared, she'd prop a bit but was easily moved out of it.
My job growing up to support my own horses was both working all new auction horses the BO bought to evaluate them and turn the decent ones into trail horses, lesson horses or sales horses. I also pinhooked a bunch of my own. And yep, about once every year or every other year we'd come across truly dangerous horses.
To me one dividing line is "does the horse have no care for it's own safety/health?" If it doesn't...the choices are either to proceed with serious caution and have a full vet eval done to rule out health issues or euthanize it. A horse that flips over on purpose...that tries to flip over...that's a horse with serious issues. A horse that will plow into fences and trees and buildings to get rid of the human is a dangerous horse. A horse that slams itself onto the ground, not good.
I don;t normally see biting, kicking or charging as deal breakers. If I did I wouldn't have owned a coupe of the best mares ever...or worked with a handful of pissy attitude other horses. But add those problems in with flipping, etc...well I've seen it a few too many times and there doesn't seem to be anything that will work to make the horse relaxed and happy and keep the humans around it safe.
But yep, I've had the crazies that were fixable. One is my screen name...that horse turned out that awesome....the other is in my backyard where we buried her when her heart gave out. :D
Not all crazies are fixable and not all crazies are lost cases. There are exceptions to every rule...but repeated experience and seeing the same exact signs over and over...you can kinda pick out the ones that just don't have a chance at becoming safe.
The curing with love comment was for the posters who did mention loving horses repeatedly in thier posts. Not for everyone. And not that everyone has to adore each and every horse. There will be some we like, some we love and some we're "meh" over. And then there's a handful of folks who love all horses siight unseen just for the fact that it's an equine...not a bad thing in itself but also not a base to make the point of arguing to keep a dangerous horses around either.

[Halt At X]

MCS-

He sounds like he is just completely burnt out on people, for whatever reason. Do you know what happened to him while he was gone for 3 years?

I think that if it's feasible- go ahead and turn him out for a year. What harm can it do, really? Worst case is he's as bad or worse than before. Then you can step back and decide if it's time to euth him and do it knowing you tried what you could.

I am not sure sending him to a cowboy for some come to jesus training is the right answer either. It *could* work, or he could also seriously harm the barn staff/trainer working with him. Are you willing to take on that liability and could you handle it if he seriously hurts or even kills someone?

Another thought is can you try taking him off all feed/supps? It's very possible there is something he is ingesting on a daily basis that is not agreeing with him and is making him miserable. I'm just throwing that out there, no idea if that could actually happen or not......

You always do the best for your horses. You'll figure out the right thing to do.

[Hip]

[QUOTE=egontoast;4446051]

The running W solution does not appall me so much if done once as a last ditch effort to save the horse from the other option. QUOTE]

Also, just thought of this, there is a fellow in Australia who uses the tie up method of a front leg on confirmed buckers, ones you can't even get on. This is another old time method from a hundred years back that still works BUT it will set people howling. Just check his vids on youtube. He has a strap around the bent/folded front leg so the horse is 3 legged. Then the guy mounts and the horse tries to buck but can't. The difference here is that this horse quits trying to buck and even after the strap is taken off, won't buck and this OP's horse who is still trying to hurt her after all sorts of stuff.

In my experience, there are the horses that are flat hard-wired wrong. It's also been shown in mammals that 'abuse' (define that if you can) changes the brain chemistry/how it develops and will never go back to *normal*. That is why you have certain human families where abuse is generational. One generation abuses the next generation who, in turn, become 'defective' and the cycle continues. It can be overcome but at great price.

But, as in the case of the 3 mos. old stud colt who tore his dam apart, I don't know what you could say about what caused a flawed brain there. I've had mares who were kid safe that after they foaled, would be fire-eating bug-eyed at anyone for a little while after foaling. Just nature taking care of the little ones, so that can happen to any 'gentle' mare.

Again, to me, there are too many other nice horses out there at a great price to put up with a dragon. I'm pretty sure everyone on this board could find an exception for everything but, overall, I'm in favor of sending the bad ones down the road and finding a better horse and be much happier for it. Giving up is a hard thing to do but sometimes it must be done! Been there, done that, have the T-shirt.

Almost forgot! About no feed or supps...seems to me, horses are way more touchier than they were even 15 years ago. Like kids, maybe they get some sort of allergy from the processed feeds, or even the chaff or hay, and it sets off some sort of reaction?? Maybe cutting out all feed/supps and go with good grass hay and let him rough it a bit would do a body good?

[Tif_Ann]

I backed out of this thread earlier too, when I felt that my initial response wasn't received well. Also, there is a LOT of defensiveness about Miss Capital Splash in this post - and surprisingly, it's not coming from her! For the record - from the start of this post I have gotten the point that MCS is a very caring owner who will and HAS bent over backwards to help horses and truly wishes to help the horse in question. I also have gotten the impression that she may be younger, early 20s maybe? I may be wrong but that's how the thread comes across.

MistyBlue - you sound like a great friend and also a very knowledgeable person. But for some reason, maybe your fear for MCS's safety, I don't know, I feel like you also have blinders on in this case. For example - this horse may be "trained, trained, trained" and "know his job" but Buck22 wasn't talking about the horse being PHYSICALLY ready to longe. Just because he KNOWS how to do upward transitions, can jump like a dream, is balanced, etc., PHYSICALLY, doesn't mean that MENTALLY he and the OP are in a place to be doing that stuff. MCS is scared of the horse. That, right there, indicates the horse needs to go elsewhere for a while or be put down if she can't bear parting with him.

Like I originally said, and now Buck22 and Egontoast and maybe a couple others have said - IF she wants to ATTEMPT to rehab this horse, she needs to forget everything this horse "knows" and go back to the basics. If that means she has to go back to putting him in a small pen and sitting outside the pen and ignoring the horse until he's mellow, and rewarding that, that's what needs to be done. It may not work. We don't know the horse either. But patience and time is the only hope this horse has. He's too far gone, based on all the descriptions, for an "easy fix". That's why I originally asked if she was willing and able to give up her goals and aspirations and quit riding him.

I know where Buck22 is coming from in her "I'm not a trainer" etc. Because part of the reason I haven't posted is because I see myself EXACTLY like she does. I always feel like I don't know much, a "who am I" to answer these threads. But "who I am" is a person who HAS worked with several "difficult" horses now. And luckily, very few of those horses have been truly "dangerous". But ... several of them have been horses that the most other people were terrified of.

My sister, who is 25, just told me last night she had to admit I was right when I told her to go back to the basics and change tactics on her TB. He was on the path to becoming a serious problem. He rears - always has from the day she got him - has flipped over once - he was becoming very pushy on the ground with her, refuses to be tied, is horrible for the farrier, rears and bites, etc. He doesn't charge people in the pasture, but he's been more and more disrespectful by walking or running away when people try to catch him. I could easily see that turning into charging as things progress. This summer he was tied and freaked out on her, reared up three times, hitting his head twice on the overhead garage door, bending it out of shape so she had to replace it, and then once she got the rope lose reared up and lunged at her - purposefully and with intent to scare and/or hurt her. My sister is not a fearful person and she was scared to tears at that point. Another boarder took the horse and lunged him and made him move for a half hour so luckily he didn't get away with it - but that day showed that it was time to do something different. And that "something" was "back to basics" and an attitude change on my sister's part... no riding, just ground work, etc. My sister has tried the chain over the nose, etc., backing him, and that stuff just wasn't working. Correcting Beau from in front of him makes him go up and want to rear. It's taken a few months but he's coming around - and Beau is the kind of horse that will always require very consistent behaviour and vigilance.

I have many other examples of horses I've worked with that were considered "insane" or "dangerous" or "lost causes". But that's not the point. The point is - I would guarantee this horse didn't get to be like this overnight, and there is no easy fix. I know how difficult it has to be for the original poster - as like I said - she comes across as very caring and truly wanting to help this boy. But right now, with everything that is said - I truly don't believe she's in any position to help him - and that has NOTHING to do with her abilities. It has to do with the fact this horse has her number.

One other point - back to Buck22 and even me saying "who am I" ... well I think that we all get learned behaviours too. Because I got back into horses without lots of "training" experience and a set of techniques that "work" ... when I took on Pirate, a very, very difficult horse, but never malicious, I not only sought out many, many different ways of doing things but also was willing to look at things a bit different. I took into account his emotions and the "why" of what makes him the way he is, and know I had to get his brain before his body. Both were messed up for Pi, but until he had a solid grasp on his sanity and could trust a human, there was nothing I could do for his body.

And ... for the record ... if I was closer or had the finances for board ... I would be willing to take this horse in and evaluate him or work with the original poster. Maybe he is truly a lost cause and needs to be euthanized. This is a message board - we're all going to project our own history onto the horse and poster - but obviously Miss Capital Splash sees something in him that makes her want to try to rehab him. MistyBlue comes across as not seeing anything worth saving in him and that he should be put down - but again, I think that comes more out of fear for MCS's safety than anything else - but maybe she's right. None of us know for sure. Whatever the original poster decides to do, though ... I dont' think anyone would judge her for.

Good luck again, I truly hope you can get some relief from this situation somehow!

[katarine]

That is beyond absurd and is abuse, not training."When horse turned and came at him, the assistant ran out far enough sideways to pull the Running W ropes and dump the horse. They then trussed up the horse, threw a tarp over it and beat the daylights out of the tarped horse with brooms."
:(

you're right. And it's not entirely unheard of. There are HARD horses out there. And sometimes HARD applications of force and domination. Sometimes they get up a whole new horse- most of the time, not. Then later when you check them to correct something they did, they get loose and chase you under a dump truck and keep you, your vet, and his assistant under said truck for a good half an hour. ;) True Story of an AQHA champion halter horse who got various applications of force over the years ;)

[JackieBlue]

you're right. And it's not entirely unheard of. There are HARD horses out there. And sometimes HARD applications of force and domination. Sometimes they get up a whole new horse- most of the time, not. Then later when you check them to correct something they did, they get loose and chase you under a dump truck and keep you, your vet, and his assistant under said truck for a good half an hour. ;) True Story of an AQHA champion halter horse who got various applications of force over the years ;)


I was already thinking to myself, "Horses aren't as stupid as many of us would like to think they are" and then I read this and had to chuckle. I mean, really, if I didn't like someone who was telling me what to do and I didn't want to do what they said I would tell or show them how I felt. And if their reaction was to attack en masse, flip me over, tie me down, throw a tarp over me and beat the $hit out of me with brooms, leave me there, likely waiting for more beating in my own mind, before letting me up.....yep, I'd probably do what they said from then on cause, damn, that was really scary!!! But I'd hate them EVEN more and I'd be even more loathe to do what they asked, even as I went ahead and did it. I just wouldn't SHOW or TELL them how I felt anymore and one day, one time, when they let their guard down, boy would I let them have it. Anyone who thinks a horse can't hold a quiet grudge and express their anger later doesn't know horses very well. :no:

[FatPalomino]

When you say he has aggression in the upward transitions on a lunge, I just have to think pain.

I know you've had soundness exams. Have you done the bute test? It wouldn't help his aggression in the field, if he's already correlated riding with pain and people with riding.... but it could help on the lunge. Being creature of habit, you'd have to do a lot of transitions, if it was pain, for him to catch onto where he hurt.

I don't think anyone would criticize your for putting him down. I have a gut feeling a necropsy would tell you a lot- maybe find a really odd cause of pain (like a previous poll fracture or neck fracture) or that brain tumor.

Stay safe, MCS.

[stoicfish]

Just one more thought.
Your horse seems sour of showing and people. Instead of just rearing or misbehaving he is being aggressive, probably because he is a dominate personality (a jerk). I have two horses that are very dominate, not dangerous though. You just have to be assertive with them as opposed to some of my others who you need to be very gentle with. But at the end of the day he is telling you he has had enough. Fight or fight and he is a fight kind of horse. You see sour more in western horses because they start them young and often the work is highly repetitive.
It really would be interesting to see him after some serious time off. And then start again with less on his schedule. We breed horses for their work ethic because not all horses can tolerate full time training/work, breeders realize this and select for it. He might be one that can’t.
There are horses that thrive in stables, and constant human contact and we forget that if is not completely natural.
You could put him down or you might give him a break and see what happens. If your looking to him to take you up the ranks and just want the problem fixed, IMO that will not happen with this horse. But if he can be allowed to have a different life that is less work intensive with more turn out (in a real field, in a herd) that may be something he could handle. I understand your hesitation at putting him down because he can’t handle it.
I don’t know you or your horse, so this is a guess. Just throwing it out there in case it helps, and hope it didn’t add to any bad feelings

[Plumcreek]

Thank you for understanding the reasoning behind the Running W story. I almost deleted it after typing, but thought it was pertinent.

More thoughts.
I have known and owned territorial horses that will be agressive to anyone in their paddock or stall, but all of these were totally benign out of the stall/padock.

Having a brain chemistry imbalance is possible, and not something you could change. A brain tumor would have escallated over time and it sounds like this horse has stayed pretty much at the same point of agression.

MCS, have you X-rayed his back and withers for arthritis or Kissing Spines? I would do that before giving up. My one mare with the horribly kissing spines was ridable to a point, but in constant pain, was tough to groom or shoe, would not actually charge on longe, but would look in at me with evil eye and ears pinned when I asked for transitions. She was becoming a dangerous witch over several years, I knew something was really wrong but was running out of vetting money and options, then we found the KS, did surgery, and she became the sweet mare I believed was in there all along. But, back pain would not explain your horse's agression in the paddock.

This is a really tough deal and I feel for you to have to make a decision.

[Tif_Ann]

Just a postscript - an anecdotal "sometimes things aren't what they seem" to back up my "sometimes you have to have fresh eyes" thing - my Tommy sometimes has a behaviour that most people on this board and in real life would associate with meanness and/or a dangerous horse. He gets in streaks where if you walk by his stall he will pin his ears. The people who stalled near us in the old barn were the ones who pointed it out to me. They said they had learned to just ignore it because it became apparent very quickly that he wasn't threatening or being dangerous. He didn't lunge out at them or try to bite, he just would pin his ears when they would walk by.

It took me a while of observing the behaviour and trying to figure out why he was doing it to realize that it was a warning. Not a "I'm going to hurt you" warning but a "don't come near my head" warning. Basically, all indications say he has a headache. Now, I know how people on here scoff at animal communicators, and I'm not saying I am one, but when I really sat down and observed him and "listened" to him, I got the clear message that he had a headache. He had seen a chiropractor and I had learned some various massage and other techniques, so I finally just "popped" his poll. I'm not going to explain how because it's not something that should be messed with. But I can tell you - between massaging the tense muscles and the pop of the poll - he had an instant attitude change. His eyes softened, his head lowered, and he let out a huge breath.... and stopped pinning his ears. Every single time I've noticed him start to become "grumpy" or pin his ears in his stall I've been able to do that and get my mellow boy back. And the "headaches" have gotten fewer and farther in between. BUT ... something like a "headache" isn't going to show up on a physical exam or x-ray.

NOTE: I'm not saying that the original poster's horse just has a headache. My point is - sometimes you have to think out of the box before labeling a horse. I'm willing to bet 95% of the people out there and on this board would have labeled Tommy as a mean or dangerous horse by observing him pin his ears when people walked by.

[buck22]

MistyBlue, you really seem like a dear and devoted and caring friend. For your horses and human friends, bravo to you. If my inexperience makes you feel that my opinion really isn't valid, or that I shouldn't be entitled to a soap box moment, you're fully entitled to that, its cool. :)

MCS, you have a devoted following, these things can only be earned. Bravo to you for being such a upstanding horseowner. Though there is a lot I'd go back into my op and edit for the sake of being clearer and probably more pc, I'll let it stand and hope that you don't find my ramble offending or demeaning. My intention was not to convince you to save the horse, but merely to share my (limited) experiences and perhaps encourage you to consider different things. You have to do what what is best for you, and I wish you and your horses every success, and the best possible outcome to this difficult situation.

Tif, thanks. :)

I also rc'd this pm:
I pray that in the future the OP doesn't come back and say how she was badly hurt, someone else was badly hurt.
I think it was a lovely and heartfelt thing for a stranger to take the time to write to a stranger, and goes to show how deeply everyone cares. I'm sure I can speak for everyone when I too hope that you don't get hurt and always stay safe and put your safety as a priority at all times.

Good luck.

[danceronice]

You know, I read this "love" business a lot on COTH. Am I the only person here who can categorically state that no I do not love these difficult horses I have in for rehab/training/etc.? I like them well enough and I hope that they come right in the end, they generally do, but as to doing it because I love them? No I don't love them. I do it to give them a future and I can't see where emotions play any part whatsoever in the rehabbing of them. Maybe that is the problem here? "Love" tainting the clarity of the situation?

Sorry if this sounds hard hearted, it's not, I own numerous horses and truthfully, I only have 2 that I love but it makes no difference, and has no part, in how I treat all of my horses.

I don't know that I *love* every horse I run across, either. Or even all horses as a general category.

And though anyone who's read me on slaughter threads probably wrote me off already as at the least, too pragmatic, I'll add that I know a couple other last-ditch cowboy tricks to break a flipper, but they are meant to be LAST DITCH and in situations where a horse is working equipment, not a buddy or a show animal. And they only work if the people doing it follow through--otherwise, you make the problem worse.

Honestly--I'm all for giving a horse a chance, and if it were a case of JUST the biting in the stall, or him kicking or charging ONCE, or an explosion under extreme circumstances (in a feed lot, at a huge show for the first time, loose on the road, the barn is on fire, etc) that would be one thing. If he were more green, if this were recent, then I would (happy fluffies aside) join in suggesting getting a cowboy on him and letting him do what needed to be done, but it sounds like this horse has been like this for a while, you (OP) have physical reasons you can't take the risk, you're experienced with problem animals and you have tried and tried. He's dangerous, he shows no signs of changing, he's not only gone at the OP but other people (I'm amazed the vet and farrier still come.) If he were at an auction, I'd pass, no matter what his final destination was, and if he were mine, I would attempt to find someone who was willing to buy him cheap with full knowledge of what he is and if I could not do in that in short order I'd have him destroyed.

Right now, I own/am sponsoring a horse out of an auction. There's a question about his behavior, but it was one incident in extreme circumstances, and he's being evaluated. If the trainer is of the opinion he is not simply green and uneasy, but dangerous, then either he will go to a person out there who already knows what's up and wants him anyway, or I'll pay for him to be euthanized. If it had been that incident followed up by dangerous behavior at the foster/quarantine, I'd have had the foster barn put him down already. Every horse deserves a chance, but there are too many good ones out there for third,fourth ad nauseam chances when their problems could get people maimed or killed.

[Plumcreek]

I was already thinking to myself, "Horses aren't as stupid as many of us would like to think they are" and then I read this and had to chuckle. I mean, really, if I didn't like someone who was telling me what to do and I didn't want to do what they said I would tell or show them how I felt. And if their reaction was to attack en masse, flip me over, tie me down, throw a tarp over me and beat the $hit out of me with brooms, leave me there, likely waiting for more beating in my own mind, before letting me up.....yep, I'd probably do what they said from then on cause, damn, that was really scary!!! But I'd hate them EVEN more and I'd be even more loathe to do what they asked, even as I went ahead and did it. I just wouldn't SHOW or TELL them how I felt anymore and one day, one time, when they let their guard down, boy would I let them have it. Anyone who thinks a horse can't hold a quiet grudge and express their anger later doesn't know horses very well. :no:


This is very true, that exercise could go either way. I know of one former fairly abusive BNT who has a major limp and lifelong pain because of just such a horse who waited to get him.