Calling All Bloodline Buffs!

[n2dressage]

I'm moving to Germany in the spring and *hopefully* will have some money in my pocket to shop for a new horse from selling my current 2nd level horse. I plan on shopping for a young horse that's been started to get the most bang for my buck! I'm not very familiar with German bloodlines, or bloodlines in general actually. I've been doing a little pre shopping and seem to like the Sandro Hit and Florencio horses. I like a lot of knee/hock action in movement. What are your favorite bloodlines?

[caddym]

I favor the Oldenburg breeding. I have a mare that is by De Niro out of a Classiker mare. De niro is fantastic. Classiker was a Holsteiner jumper (goes back to Cor De La Breyer). Personally I like to see some jumper or TB in the line,

So...I am familiar with the Oldenburg lines which over lap with the Hannovarians

A is Argentenius a jumper
B line I don't know very well
C Cor De la Breyer is a very big jumper line
D Donnerhall
E Ex librius - small line Carl Herster's Escapado
F sounds like yiou are familiar with
G I don't know well I believe goes back to Golan
H I love Hohenstein I beleive was a trakehner
L for the most part is Landgraf a huge jumper line but
Lord Sinclair, Lord Liberty G and Londonderry are all good dressge sires
Q Quarterback a young stallion but will probably be influential
R the Rhodiamant
S Sandro Hit - personally I love stedinger
W Wolkentanz

i think the biggest are D F S R W

A great place to look at lines is the oldenburg and Hannovarian auction sites . But the oldenburg collection is still on line

[adelmo95]

Just thought I would add a little more on the "A" line. In terms of Argentinus he has produced both grand prix dressage and jumping horses; Albano who won team gold at the 2001 European Championships(dressage), Amaretto 2 time German champion (dressage), Arko (jumper), Anka (jumper). I would absolutely love to own a horse sired by Argentinus. That being said with the "A" I would describe it as ones descending from Absatz (which Argentinus does).

Absatz was known as one of the refining sires in the hanoverian breed. He is very consistent in the type he throws, and the influence can be seen many generation down the line. He produced successful dressage and jumping horses. His influence in dressage is likely most strongly seen through Weltmeyer whos dam's sire is Absatz.

I wouldn't say that the A line tends to have as much knee action as some of the Sandro Hit ones, but they still tend to be lovely movers. I am a huge fan of this line and would definitely recommend trying a couple.

[scribbles]

Love the R line, for temperament especially... not sure if they will have quite the knee you want

[blackhorse6]

I think when you take in to consideration "bloodlines", you need to decide what you are looking for in disposition.. D and R lines are known for producing amateur horses that can go all the way.. S lines are a bit "HOT" but there are exceptions. I have two friends that are breeders, Oldenburg and Hanoverian. Both breed for disposition first. I myself have a DeNiro son and love him.. He is a puppy dog but has what it takes.. His movement does not however have alot of "knee action".. That is the new trend.. Amazingly enough 10 yrs ago when I purchased my Rheinlander mare, she was said to have to much.. Now she would fit right in!! Good luck with your search.. :yes::yes:

[stolensilver]

When horse shopping,to be honest, bloodlines are at the bottom of my list of requirements. First things are age, sex, size. Then level of training. Then conformation. Then geography, how far do you want to travel?

By this stage the list of possible horses is usually pretty small. When I've whittled the list down this far there are usually less than half a dozen horses to go and see and I go to see all of them!

In Germany you will find breeders are far more likely to use a new, young stallion so many of the horses available may be by stallions you are unfamiliar with and the only way to know if you like them or not is to see them in the flesh. Also what suits one person does not suit another. IMHO it takes decades of riding 30-40 different horses each year before you can get a true feel for what a stallion throws and most of us never attain that level of knowledge. Without it you would be unwise not to have an open mind.

[n2dressage]

I have a pretty good idea of what I want. I just want to be educated on bloodlines should the need to know them arise. I wouldn't cancel out a horse because his sire is unproven yet or anything but at the same time I want to keep resell in mind in case that should ever happen. I do want a horse that is "warm" but not necessarily "hot". I have a hot TB right now that can be a bit spooky and I'm getting tired of the spooky part but in the same respect the sensitivity and hotness is what makes a horse great when you move up the levels. Caddym, the post you left with the alphabet was really helpful! I see all the "from the R lines..." blah blah in adds and never know what on earth they are referring to! The only limitations so far I've got in my mind is that I would prefer to not have a gray horse (unless its the one of the Danish horse in the other post on here from the 4 yo finals or whatever that was!) and prefer not a mare (because it costs more $$$ to import the horse back to the US due to quarantine). All that being said, anyone have any websites they have come across for horses for sale over there I can do some preshopping on??:D

[adelmo95]

I like these two websites, spend way too much time on them considering I am not currently looking for a new horse:
www.pferdekauf-online.de
www.horsebase.de
www.germanhorseconnection.com - It was years ago that I talked to Kareen about a few of the horses she had listed, unfortunately I never got to go to Germany to see them as the deal on the horse I was selling fell through and could not increase numbers, but I was very impressed with how helpful and honest she was.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

Find yourself a good trainer in Germany and have her/him set you up. :)

And I'm not really a bloodline buff, but: I have a trainer in Hamburg, he has helped lots of folks at my barn (and other barns) get the perfect horse for *them*. Even my trainer here, an I judge, commented on how wonderful of an eye he has to match horse and rider. Needless to say all the horses have at least PSG in them, some definitely GP, and they're pretty, sound, and have the matching temperament for their amateur owners. A lot of them are D-Line, and from having been able to ride them on occasion, can attest to their lovely disposition, talent and how handy they are :D.

I find though that Dutch horses seem to come more with the knee and hock action. : )

[J-Lu]

Honestly, if you don't have a good grasp on bloodlines at this point, you will do best to find yourself an honest person to help you purchase your horse with your specific needs in mind. If you want to learn about bloodlines, your best bet is to go over to the Sport horse breeding forum on this website and read what people say about various stallions/mares and lines. More importantly, go to the Breed websites and Youtube and various online sites and study the conformation, inspection scores, how the horse moves, what the temperament is like, and what they tend to pass on to youngsters (mares and stallions). Look at how lines are scored by top judges in the show ring versus and how they mature into riding horses. Yea, it's alot of work! It is really easy to hear other people say "I love my (fill in the blank) baby". But honestly, there are surprisingly few types of horses that I actually enjoy riding despite the bloodlines. Your best bet is to try alot of horses and buy a horse you like...not a resale prospect.

[stolensilver]

What I discovered when baby horse shopping is how many amazing pedigrees resulted in nice rather than amazing horses. When you are breeding, pedigree is everything because you are trying to predict which cross will produce the best foal. It's difficult! But when you are buying you have the luxury of being able to see what the different crosses produced and only buy the best you can find which often is from bloodlines you would never have considered on paper.

[caddym]

http://www.psi-auktion.de/en/psi-auction/psi-catalogue-2009/dressage-horses-2009/

check out this collection for bloodline ideas

[Valentina_32926]

I have a KWPN mare (she is warm as in reactive and VERY forward but not spooky) with TONS of knee action. I believe she gets the knee action from the Gelderlander lines she has WAY back in her pedigree.

Anyway I've been told she could do Grand Prix by several riders/trainers, Bo Jena told me to breed her, etc... you get the point.

Based on that I'll tell you she is JUMPER bred top and bottom (Wolfgang by Voltaire)... so don't discount jumping lines.

[LD1129]

I have a 5 year old Hanoverian that I bought as a 4 year old. He is by DeLaurentis out of DeNiro and his dam sire was Bordeaux. He is a lovely amateur horse (he is my first warmblood). I bought him before I received his papers and I got very very lucky.

[Libera]

You are looking for a ridinghorse right?

Forget about the bloodlines for now. Go look at actual horses, and ride them. When you narrow down the list, look into the bloodlines of the ones you liked best.
IMHO, you can't ride a "bloodline", you ride the horse.

[MEP]

Just to add to Caddym's alphabet post, I believe the G line in Hannoverian pedigrees is often associated with Graf/Grande - well know for jumping.

for more info, try the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses - they've got sire rankings and all kinds of info:

http://www.wbfsh.org/?GB/Rankings.aspx

But really, as Libera says above - you ride the horse, not the bloodlines.

[n2dressage]

Its funny how threads on this forum can deviate so easily from the intended purpose... Yes, I know looking at and riding horses is what's important in buying a horse. I'm not going to count any horse in or out based on how they look on paper. My current dressage horse is a TB... I'm not going to be a bloodline snob nor do I have enough money to be! Lol. What I did want to know was trends within bloodlines and which sires go with what (like what caddym posted) because I want to be knowledgeable while shopping and not give any sellers reason to believe I'm not knowledgeable and therefore can be taken advantage of. I do plan on finding a trainer ASAP after arriving and have no desire to do the shopping alone and settle for something less than what is available. I am very excited at the quality of horses available there for the money and can't wait to get started traveling and looking but will unfortunately have to be patient to wait until the 2007 models have been started to be able to afford what I want (and have no desire to start my own!). Another question: what is a Wurtemburger? (sp?)

[caddym]

it would be really interesting for others input in all this - as I am NOT a breeder or expert, I have never been to Germany but I have been really interested. I have been blessed with the freindship of Ann Kitchell (breeder of Statesman (Stedinger out of Donnerschwee mare )) and have spent many pleasant evenings with Ann, a bottle of wine and dvd's

So the way that I understand this is that Germany is somehow divided into regions and somehow therefor registries:

Branddenburger (small registry of which QUARTERBACK is branded)
Hanoverian (probably the largest)
Holsteiner (great horses - more jumpers)
Oldenburg
Rhinelander (I know little of)
Trakhner
Westphalin
Wurttenburger

The horse will be branded according to the branding of the mare. So for example, My mare Gesstenia is sired by "De Niro" (branded Hannoverian) who is sired by the famous Donnerhall (Branded Oldenburg) Out of "Gessten" Gessten is branded Oldenburg but is by Classiker (branded Holsteiner). Gesstenia is branded Oldenburg as Gessten is branded Oldenburg as Gessten's mother was branded Oldenburg

So these registries are "open" meaning that if a stallion is presented and judged to have potential to improve the line he will be accepted by a registry other than his brand Sandro Hit is Branded Oldenburg but obviously accepted by many other registries so if you have a Hannoverian mare and breed to sandro hit, the foal will be branded hannoverian.

Fressian is an example of a registry that is "closed" (this protects a very sterotypical phenotype)

Wurttenburger is a small region. I have seen only one horse that is branded Wurttenburger. It was a super horse competing in the young horse classes. The brand itself is kind of cool looking - sort of looks like an eyelash. Personally I don't know of any stallions that are branded Wurttenburger and I don't know the lines of the horse that I saw.

The trend in germany to name offspring with a name begining with the first letter of the sire ("D"onnerhall, "D"e Niro - "S"andro Hit, "S"tedinger,......)
Although Oldenburg will name a mare for the mare line (My mare is "G"esstenia who is by "G"essten - I'm not sure if the other registries do that)

If you see an "xx" after a sires name, that denotes thorobred (sp?).
Prince Thatch xx (who I love) or Laures Crusader xx are popular thorobreds in German lines. Personally, I love to see "xx" or a jumper sire (like Classiker or Argentenius) somewher in the pedigree.

But thats just germany

You also have

Danish
Dutch - KWPN
Swedish
Belguim (more jumpers than dressage)

I have 2 horses my gelding (Caddymaster) is by Master (also sire of Kyra Kyrklunds "Max" and Lesllie Morses "Tip Top") out of an Indus mare (same mare line as Minne Tinndee's "don Charly"). But you don't see so too much of the swedish horses (or the Dansih horses - most famous probably May Sherriff)


The Dutch horse are very influential - I predict will become even more so. You will see the Dutch lines in German breed horses. I don't know the Dutch lines well. I love: Flemming ((now deceased) who sired Lingh, Chris Hickey's Regent, Cathy Moreli's Be Se )) Jazz (I believe was Dressage sire of the year a few years back, sire of gunter seidels "U II" Jazz is by Cocktail who Anky rode and I hear is very hot) and Gibraldi (edward Gals GP horse, now retired and sire of Gal's current mounts Totilas and Sisther De jue) The Dutch have a completly different naming system. The foals are named with a letter that is designated for the year that they were born (So "s"isther De jue" is 10 and "t"otilas" is 9).

Again, I am NOT a breeder or expert - just enthusiastic. I would welcome any corrections, additions .....

[Libera]

Gribaldi is actually a Trakehner stallion, licensed to breed KWPN.

The reason Friesians don't allow in any outside horses, is because they are a Studbook. Same with the Trakehners, they do allow TB or Arab though.
Kwpn, BWP, NRPS etc., are Registries, they will allow outside horses.

[Libera]

BTW, I wasn't calling you a "bloodline-snob". Just trying to say, look at the horse first, then the bloodlines!

[sid]

I learned a long time ago from a veternarian whose specialty was breeding.

1) When you are looking for a horse for a specific discipline, it is correct to be attracted to the bloodlines that have turned out the most/best horses for that discipline.

2) Don't let that cloud your judgement however. And never just buy the bloodlines because they are fashionable.

3) Look at the horse in front of you with very good eyes.

4) If you are buying for the sport, buy what you see regardless of bloodlines.

5) If you are buying for breeding, buy what you see as well as bloodlines...now THAT's very hard.

[n2dressage]

For those of you that like to window shop as well :D go to youtube and search kkique27. She is in Germany (transplanted from the US) and has a business assisting people shopping for horses (winninggaits.com). There are a few horses in the videos that she has uploaded that I would love to see but unfortunately they will be sold or too expensive when I make it over there. There's the 2006 Sandro Hit horse and the 2006 Hanoverian gelding w/o shoes (he's Florencio/Londonderry) that I like. I'm hoping they have younger siblings lol! Also look at the Wolkentanz II horse on there. He's AMAZING and I'm sure costs a boatload.

[caddym]

FYI Wolkentanz II is now in Canada. Likely to be a lot of his offspring available in North America in the coming years

[staceyk]

Hi,

It's funny, I often hear Americans admonished for not showing enuf interest in bloodlines. I'm no expert but like you I want to learn more, and here are a few resources I found (Hanoverian)...


http://www.behindthebitblog.com/2008/01/researching-hanoverian-bloodlines.html