WTH do I do with this mare now? WE HAVE A DIAGNOSIS...and it aint good!! PG 2

[LittleblackMorgan]

My TB is having some issues with her right fore. She had a corn dug out this summer, and was fine. Started training early Sept, and now that we're into things, (on the flat) she's off. No head bobbing or anything, just a MAJOR lack of flexion. No heat, no ringbone bumbs, no swelling. Doesnt appear to be in pain per se, but doesnt work out of it.

My mare I had as a kid had a hitch in her trot. This reminds me of THAT.
The vet is coming tomorrow for my fistulous withers patient, and I will have him Xray her too.

But honestly I dont know if I can do this. I knew there was a risk buying her-long story-but the heartache (and wallet ache) from my gelding has worn me VERY thin. I can't put a ton of cash in the TB...I'm upset, worried, mad at myself.
I purchased her in July following my geldings big surgery. Reason being, if I lost him (and we arent out of the woods *quite* yet) and I didn't have another horse, I would be done. Finite. No more horses for LBM.

The vet warned that when I really started working her, SOMETHING would come up, as racehorses are generally a bag of medical tricks.

Any ideas? comforting words? I damn near burst into tears on the way home from the barn tonight. My heart can't take anymore sick!

[Zu Zu]

No ideas but Jingles for you and the gelding and the mare. Maybe turn her out for the winter and let nature correct "whatever" ~ if that is possible ? ~ but cut down on expenses and get her out of sight a little bit????? You sound worn out !!!

[LittleblackMorgan]

Thanks Zu Zu. I had just lined up a stall at a farm with an indoor to continue the training. My trainer said to think about NOT moving her and letting her rest for the winter. But she has no stall, only a paddock, in NEW ENGLAND. And it costs the same I'm paying now to move her. Ugh, my nerves are so F*%^$&* fried I can't even think straight about this.

[SprinklerBandit]

I'm sorry. It sounds like a miserable year for you.

I second turning the mare out for the winter. Is there any place you can take her with pasture and shelter? If you're not looking for fancy riding facilities, there has to be something around.

Good luck!

[joiedevie99]

It sounds like she might just need to see the chiro.

[Meredith Clark]

Thanks Zu Zu. I had just lined up a stall at a farm with an indoor to continue the training. My trainer said to think about NOT moving her and letting her rest for the winter. But she has no stall, only a paddock, in NEW ENGLAND. And it costs the same I'm paying now to move her. Ugh, my nerves are so F*%^$&* fried I can't even think straight about this.

I agree with your trainer, give yourself and your wallet a rest for the winter!

I mean, if you're really worried about her being too cold (which is justified) why don't you put the money you'd put into winter board into buying one of those modular shelters (you can get a simple 12x12 for a little over 1k in most places).

I've had 5 OTTBs in my life (i'm a 1 or 2 horse at a time kinda girl so I don't go through horses very fast) and they've ALL benefited from having a winter off. I pull the shoes and just let them CHILL. They've all come out fresh and sounder in the spring.

[LittleblackMorgan]

I am thinking of the winter rest too. she's getting her xrays this afternoon, but she still has to move. I cant do one of those shelters for her-no room in the paddock-and the poor beast has zero winter coat. She's been blanketed for a week now with the colder than usual weather up here.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Invest your money in a good blanket or two and turn her out. She should be fine as long as she has some sort of windbreak and plenty of good quality hay.

[LittleblackMorgan]

I bought her a nice Weathabeeta mid weight, waterproof, and a chill chaser for underneath. At the current farm she doesnt have anything but a crap canopy I put up for the summer rain. We had a stall available, but the BO gave it away to a new boarder. She's moving to another farm with a run-in and paddock (obviously, duh LOL) which is a permanent structure, for $100 less than I am paying now, or there is an indoor stall available for the same cost. BO doesnt want the horse to leave.

I hope the xrays find just arthritis. Is arthritis workable? She is only 8. Injections? Supps? I want to do flat work only, and breed her in the future.

[mhtokay]

It sounds like she might just need to see the chiro.

ditto. I've seen many subtle lamenesses helped by a chiro

[M. O'Connor]

I can sympathize...one of my horses had a deep bruise/corn that developed in June '08, and he is still not completely sound. He has very acceptable xrays, and tight tendons, and minimal arthritic changes in his joints, so there is no particular 'reason' that he sould be sore, other than that he is tenderfooted. I have done a year of bar shoes and various pads that provided relief, but still didn't fix the problem.

So last month, I officially declared a moratorium on attempting to work him, and pulled his shoes. The first couple weeks were pretty tough to watch, as he was very sore. Now, though, his feet have started to toughen up and reshape themselves (he does see the farrier about once every two weeks) and I can see a good trend developing. He will stay out as much as possible this winter, which will be quite a lot, and next spring, I'll see what, if any, level of work he'll go back to doing.

In the meantime, there are no guarantees with these animals. The time we are able to spend with them is a gift, but disaster could be right around the corner. No sense losing your mind over it, that's just the way it is. Enjoy the good days, but don't take the bad ones too much to heart. There is a lot else going on in the world that needs our attention these days, after all.

[LittleblackMorgan]

A chiro for lower leg lameness? Its an issue of flexion. As in, when the right fore strikes the ground, instead of the fetlock area (I am so bad at body part names...that could be wrong) giving and flexing into the motion, it remains stiff and awkward. Most noticible at the walk, not so much at the trot. No head bobbing, just short-stepping. Its been on again off again, and we had a nasty cold snap that brought it out big time, which leads me to believe it is arthritic.

[LittleblackMorgan]

So it COULD still be the corn? The vet dug it out back in July. She's wearing wedges up front (those tendons screamed when she had flats on) and its a project to even get to the corn area (ie, the pad blocks the whole area)

[Ghazzu]

A chiro for lower leg lameness? Its an issue of flexion. As in, when the right fore strikes the ground, instead of the fetlock area (I am so bad at body part names...that could be wrong) giving and flexing into the motion, it remains stiff and awkward. Most noticible at the walk, not so much at the trot. No head bobbing, just short-stepping. Its been on again off again, and we had a nasty cold snap that brought it out big time, which leads me to believe it is arthritic.

That may not be an inability to flex the joint, but rather a reluctance to bear full weight on the limb.

[RidingAllDay]

I'm sorry to hear about your problems. You might want to go read this thread http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11212

The discussion may have some useful info for you and your horse. Good luck with the xrays.

[JackieBlue]

Does her fetlock look normal when she's standing squarely on all four feet? Can you manually hyperextend her fetlock? In other words, if you pick her leg up, pull it out in front of her and leverage the toe, with the knee straight, does it stretch as far as if you do the same with the opposite foreleg? What about flexion? If you pick up each front leg and attempt to flex her felock joint (foot toward the tendon area), does each front fetlock joint flex the same?

[okggo]

I'm so sorry about your problems - I know how hard horses can be, and I've certainly had my share of suicide attempts from them.

Depending on the xrays and your vets thoughts, I'd be tempted to pull the shoes - get her a proper barefoot trim, and turn her out for a couple months on field board. I'd also suggest working with a nutritionist to make sure all her needs are being met and give her the best shot at growing plenty of healthy hoof during her break.

Good luck - and hang in there!

Some of the photos on that link (riding posted) looked really odd to me. http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/Media%20Centralis/MediaCentralis019.jpg like the upward bend in the coronary band in the center of this hoof. What causes that?

[LittleblackMorgan]

Does her fetlock look normal when she's standing squarely on all four feet? Can you manually hyperextend her fetlock? In other words, if you pick her leg up, pull it out in front of her and leverage the toe, with the knee straight, does it stretch as far as if you do the same with the opposite foreleg? What about flexion? If you pick up each front leg and attempt to flex her felock joint (foot toward the tendon area), does each front fetlock joint flex the same?

There is marked flexion issues with the right fore when flexed under the body (as in a true flexion test). The left is not as bad. The right showed improvement over time, and has gone backwards as of late.

She does stand squarely on all 4. I have not hyper extended her forward with the leg, though I will today. Upon initial examination, the vet said that there was sign of old injury. Did not elaborate further than that-I did not do a PPE on her (she was bought for $600...a sad case she was) but had a phsyical done on her the month I brought her home. Had an issue with the right hind stifle area (the muscle, not bone/joint) Hand walking, kept quiet in a stall and used Surpass for a 10 days 2x a day. That cleared up. I believe it was a case of steroids and god knows what else leaving the system...

On bute there is a marked differance in the horse (or was, I should say). Personality perked up. That was this summer.

Last night she was fresh on the lunge, squealing, baby-bucks and lots of forward movement. Of course I lunged both ways for only 10 minutes, the offness did not improve.

Appetite astounding, loves her hay and gets 2qts BS Vintage Performer per day. Recently wormed, on Cosequin as well.

And thank you for that link Ridingalldays. Very informative.

[starkissed]

I would probably pull her shoes and turn her out. If she is barefoot it's much easier to fix these types of problems because you can keep going in there and trimming.
If the barn with the stall costs the same it might not be a bad idea to have that option. She will get turnout there as well?

[Alagirl]

I have no ideas to offer about what could be wrong.

But since your nerves are worn, give yourself a break and put Baby out for the winter. It's to dang cold to ride anyhow.

Breathe. Though it does not sound good, it does not sound really bad either.

[JackieBlue]

I may have missed a post, but have you had her x-rayed? The difficult fetlock flexion hints at possible issues that will not be improved by turn out, so I would recommend getting the distal limb thoroughly radiographed, find out what's in there and know what you're dealing with before changing her management one way or the other. If she has an old (or new) injury in the fetlock time off will likely make no difference. Many horses that are sound before they "go on vacation" have foot issues upon returning to work, so as much as a vacation may seem warranted, please make sure you know what you've got now for a better idea of what you'll have after a vacation. Anytime joint motion is limited there is something NQR and oftentimes it's a big something.

Editted to add that I recommend that you do NOT pull her shoes until you know how the fetlock and distal joints are orthopedically and soft tissue-wise. She may be relying on their support more than you know and changing the status quo when there are unknowns could be a big mistake.

[Obi]

I am just curious how much down time this mare has had (assuming you got her either from the track or had been racing at one point or another). I rescued a OTTB with a sesmoid fracture and 2 bowed tendons and was able to rehab him back to being sound but the key to his success was that he had plenty, and I mean plenty, of rest and down time. I did not get on his back until 8 months after I got him home. He had stall rest, then progressivelylarger turnout. I honestly believe that this time gave him both the mental and physical time to heal. Admittedly, I had no expectations for this horse; when I got him, I was half expecting to put him in the ground when I got him home.
I know that you are incredibly discouraged but I agree with most of the other posters...give the mare the winter off. Buy her a good turnout blanket, make sure she has access to plenty of hay, and let her be a horse. I do agree that shelter is necessary and I would actually rather see her outside with a turnout shelter than in a stall.

[JackieBlue]

Okay, I just saw that you're planning to have her x-rayed today. Please update us when you can. I hope it's something very minor.

[AppJumpr08]

Was this mare a Gill horse, or am I thinking of someone else?

I hope the x-rays give you some answers.

Depending on the films, I'd say give her the winter off - some horses need a more substantial amount of time to rest and rehab and clear their systems of whatever they were given at the track.

Be careful about not having a shelter for her - not only is it a possibilty that blankets might not be enough for a recent track retiree, but most places in New England mandate shelter for horses in the winter.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[Dressage Art]

I'm so sorry to hear that your 2nd horse having soundness issues as well. It is heart braking. I have no words of wisdom, just hugs and wishes to stay sane for you.

[LittleblackMorgan]

The diagnosis is this:

Damn near fusion of the RF fetlock. Calcification as well. Vet said that as it is as advanced as it is, injections are a waste of money and time. The cold snap would obviously pain her, and adding MSM to her Cosequin wont hurt.

So here I am with the mare, whom I may only W-T (80% walk says vet). Trail riding OK, no real rough ground. Keep her out of the deep sand and mud he says. Firm ground is best.

So....at this point, with Mr Fistulous Withers (who is doing well, vet said, and progressing FINALLY) and Stiff Joint, I am left with my breeding option. Next month the vet will come out and ultrasound for her ovaries to make sure they are normal, and then think about the future from there. He would like me to breed her to a WB (I have a Hanno in mind) as the sale value (and keep value, which is why I want to breed) is better with a reg WB baby.

HOWEVER-
My trainer is pretty much trying to talk me into "getting rid" of her as a companion, to home with an owner who wants to just trail ride and w/t, or as a broodmare.

WTF do I do? Instinctively I don't want to find her a home. Yes it is expensive to have not 1 but 2 unrideables, but I believe this mare found me for a reason. She is conformationally stunning-huge shoulder, great butt, DEEEEEEP chest, dished face with such such such a feminine expression...great legs (said fetlock aside), BITCHIN' sporthorse bloodlines... (Waquoit is her grandfather)....
Cothers, recommendations? Sit and wait, have a big ol pet, lease her out?

-And yes, Michael Gill owned her.

[tinah]

Follow your gut.

[LittleblackMorgan]

PLan on that, Tinah. I followed it when I bought her, severly underweight, 3 shoes, bald for the most part, no papers just a copy....there is a reason the universe planted the black mare in my lap instead of the 6 year old blood bay gelding I was looking for...

[okggo]

Sorry about this :(

Have you bred one before? I purchased a mare in 2003 to compete/event and she had one horrific injury after another. What did her in was a major hock fracture in a pasture accident. Talked to the vet about all the options and we decided to cast her, rest her, and see. She pulled through pretty pasture sound for awhile, but never riding sound. Again - talked with my vet about options and he sold me on breeding her. I NEVER planned or wanted to breed a horse. I ride, not breed. Anyway - long story short, I ended up breeding her and it was the BEST EXPERIENCE I have ever had with horses. I hate the situation that led to it, but it was such a blessing in disguise for me. Her "baby" is now 4, he is a keeper for life and my dream come true. Since then bought a farm, and bred 2 more. It's an amazing experience.

That said, as with ANYTHING horses, sh*t can and does happen. I would suggest that if you go for it you get insurance on her. They won't cover her current and prior injuries, but if something happens foaling - you will be taken care of. It's anywhere from 300-450 for major medical and full mortality for one year - TOTALLY worth it.



The diagnosis is this:

Damn near fusion of the RF fetlock. Calcification as well. Vet said that as it is as advanced as it is, injections are a waste of money and time. The cold snap would obviously pain her, and adding MSM to her Cosequin wont hurt.

So here I am with the mare, whom I may only W-T (80% walk says vet). Trail riding OK, no real rough ground. Keep her out of the deep sand and mud he says. Firm ground is best.

So....at this point, with Mr Fistulous Withers (who is doing well, vet said, and progressing FINALLY) and Stiff Joint, I am left with my breeding option. Next month the vet will come out and ultrasound for her ovaries to make sure they are normal, and then think about the future from there. He would like me to breed her to a WB (I have a Hanno in mind) as the sale value (and keep value, which is why I want to breed) is better with a reg WB baby.

HOWEVER-
My trainer is pretty much trying to talk me into "getting rid" of her as a companion, to home with an owner who wants to just trail ride and w/t, or as a broodmare.

WTF do I do? Instinctively I don't want to find her a home. Yes it is expensive to have not 1 but 2 unrideables, but I believe this mare found me for a reason. She is conformationally stunning-huge shoulder, great butt, DEEEEEEP chest, dished face with such such such a feminine expression...great legs (said fetlock aside), BITCHIN' sporthorse bloodlines... (Waquoit is her grandfather)....
Cothers, recommendations? Sit and wait, have a big ol pet, lease her out?

-And yes, Michael Gill owned her.

[LittleblackMorgan]

OKGO, nope, have not bred her. I researched her bloodlines before I purchased her and saw Waquoit. I too never wanted to breed-the money-the chance-the hassle-but now that she is here, she is here. And jingles her lady bits are OK.

I just wish my trainer would back me on this. She keeps asking if I am serious. I keep saying YES. But, she says, then I would have 3 horses. And it would be YEARS before I could ride the baby.

At this point, having my pony who is my BOY the absolute love of my life (of the animal variety) who is out of commission-I would like something to look forward to. Genuinely and absolutely. The mares too good. One look in those eyes and the nicker she gave me the day I met her, I didnt give a rats &** that she could be lame (which she is). She was coming home with me.

[JackieBlue]

I was very much afraid of something like this. Did the vet see anything besides bridging? Any reason why it might be fusing? Was there evidence of old fracture? Was the alignment normal or was there evidence of past luxation or subluxation? A fused joint can lead to many complications in the other joints of the same leg and in the opposite leg which becomes the dominant weightbearing limb over time. The carpus and joints distal to the fetlock (pastern joint and coffin joint) are most at risk in the affected leg and the fetlock and possibly the carpus are most in danger on the opposite leg. Breeding her may make both you and her very happy, but you should be aware of the possible complications of her condition that may be around the bend even without the weight gain and hormone swings associated with pregnancy. That way you can be prepared with a contingency plan if the worst should happen.
I see horses with fused joints and compounding issues regularly and will gladly share my experiences if you would like. I'm sorry the news was so bad. :no:

[LittleblackMorgan]

I was very much afraid of something like this. Did the vet see anything besides bridging? Any reason why it might be fusing? Was there evidence of old fracture? Was the alignment normal or was there evidence of past luxation or subluxation? A fused joint can lead to many complications in the other joints of the same leg and in the opposite leg which becomes the dominant weightbearing limb over time. The carpus and joints distal to the fetlock (pastern joint and coffin joint) are most at risk in the affected leg and the fetlock and possibly the carpus are most in danger on the opposite leg. Breeding her may make both you and her very happy, but you should be aware of the possible complications of her condition that may be around the bend even without the weight gain and hormone swings associated with pregnancy. That way you can be prepared with a contingency plan if the worst should happen.
I see horses with fused joints and compounding issues regularly and will gladly share my experiences if you would like. I'm sorry the news was so bad. :no:

No evidence of a fracture. It wasnt fused YET, but pretty damn close to being so. He did go over all the possible outcomes with me about the situtation...he said that this is ONE leg, which may just be the WORST leg, not nessesarily the ONLY leg with issues. Given the former owners er, rep, I am not surprised. When the arthritis began the mare should been retired. But was not.
Of course, assuming her lady bits are fully functional and she is fertile as the day is long, ALL tests will be run, all 4 radio'd and all i's dotted and t's crossed. I would never ever stress her body with pregnancy if there was a chance I would cause further trauma.

And please share your experiences, either here or PM me. Any info is greatly appreciated, and welcomed.

[JSwan]

Given that there are some darn fine sound horses being abandoned or sent to slaughter... I question whether breeding this horse is a good idea.

I realize her bloodlines are good, but if you really wanted a nice sound horse they can be had very cheaply right now.

Unless for some reason this nice mare would produce 5 or 6 figure offspring, in this economy, I just don't see any benefit to breeding her.

Her arthritis could make pregnancy uncomfortable for her, even painful. Also, you'd have to pay for feed and vet/farrier care, then if the goal was to produce a riding horse for you, pay for feed, vet care and training for the foal.

Really - it makes better financial sense to just buy another horse and keep this one as a pasture ornament. Give her a decent retirement, and put her down before her arthritis makes her life miserable.

Maybe not the most heartwarming suggestion, but a reasonable one.

[JackieBlue]

I see a lot of horses with fused or arthrodesed (surgically fused) fetlocks and by the time I see them they've suffered the common complications of such a condition in one way or another. With a fused fetlock in a front leg you'll always end up with overloading in the opposite foreleg and to a lesser degree in the diagonal hind limb. Naturally laminitis is a concern, but more commonly the fetlock in the good leg subluxates or luxates (dislocates) and/or the carpus deviates into a varus position (bow legged), the fetlock drops as the suspensory apparatus degrades causing arthritic changes in the "good" fetlock and subluxation of the pastern and coffin joints. Or sometimes the exact opposite happens - the digital flexors over tighten partially due to stress on the flexor muscle body up in the forearm and the fetlock in the weight bearing leg becomes stiff, pastern upright and usually the distal interphalangeal joint subluxates (coffin joint) and occasionally luxates fully (imagine an upright pastern and straight fetlock with the foot splayed, heels flat on the ground - this is usually what the "bad" leg looks like before long and the joint subluxations are painful).
In the bad leg, usually the fetlock fuses in a slightly extended position, causing an upright pastern and the hoof on the "bad" side either grows a high heel and ends up clubby or "bottoms out" with "derotation" of the coffin bone and at least subluxation at the DIP joint and possibly in the pastern joints as well (upright leg, flat hoof as descirbed above - ouch!). Every horse's leg has to have "give" in it and if the natural "give" is impossible in one joint or another the leg will find another place to make up for the immobility. Horses with fused fetlocks often end up with angular deformities(almost always varus, or bow legged) of the carpus on the "bad" leg. This stresses the lateral collateral ligament, the epiphyses of the long bones and the cuboidal bones in the carpus. Injuries to all of these structures are more likely.
This is just a quick summary of what I see regularly as complications of fused fetlock joints. Complications will occur more easily and sooner in horses that are asked to carry excess weight (pregnancy) and those that are more active (mare keeping up with foal). Some of the hormones of pregnancy can compound a tendency toward laxity in the dominant weight bearing limb (relaxin, for example). I am NOT saying don't breed her. I'm just offering my experience to help you make an informed decision and know wha you're getting into and what to watch for as she progresses day to day.
I keep putting "good" leg and "bad" leg in quotes b/c oftentimes the so-called "good" leg ends up being the deal breaker and causing more pain and trouble than the "good" leg.

[LittleblackMorgan]

OK Jackie, half of that was in Chinese to me LOL. Lots of medical jargon I have never read. But gotcha on the last 2 paragraphs.
Laminitis is a risk with the fusing joint? In the opposite leg, a la Barbaro?

[FlashGordon]

Given that there are some darn fine sound horses being abandoned or sent to slaughter... I question whether breeding this horse is a good idea.

I realize her bloodlines are good, but if you really wanted a nice sound horse they can be had very cheaply right now.

Unless for some reason this nice mare would produce 5 or 6 figure offspring, in this economy, I just don't see any benefit to breeding her.

Her arthritis could make pregnancy uncomfortable for her, even painful. Also, you'd have to pay for feed and vet/farrier care, then if the goal was to produce a riding horse for you, pay for feed, vet care and training for the foal.

Really - it makes better financial sense to just buy another horse and keep this one as a pasture ornament. Give her a decent retirement, and put her down before her arthritis makes her life miserable.

Maybe not the most heartwarming suggestion, but a reasonable one.

:yes:

[JackieBlue]

Ha! 'sorry, yes, ala Barbaro. I'll be back to the computer in a few minutes and I'll gladly translate for you. ;) I'm on my deathbed practically with H1N1 and need to go take my Tamiflu and get some hot tea. :sigh: 'Be right back. I hope....

[LittleblackMorgan]

Ha! 'sorry, yes, ala Barbaro. I'll be back to the computer in a few minutes and I'll gladly translate for you. ;) I'm on my deathbed practically with H1N1 and need to go take my Tamiflu and get some hot tea. :sigh: 'Be right back. I hope....

Christ! Feel better! :yes:


And of course I am aware of the horses in need right now. Which is how I ended up with this gal. I refuse to be "that guy" and "dump" said mare. Reiterating the fact that the universe placed her in my possession for a reason. Just not quite sure what it was exactly? Given my pony's condiditon (which I expected stupidly to be MUCH better by now, jeez, THAT started in April, and vet bills are teetering on the 5k mark...)

[LittleblackMorgan]

Hey Flash, question-and in NO way is this smart assy-

When does one know when its er, time? For the big "E"? Obviously not NOW, but for the love of all things holy, this mare is 8 years old. And its BAD seeing it in xray form. Nearly no gap for fluid. Almost bone on bone. I figure that if the mare is officially retired TODAY, she'll be manageable for another 2 years or so. Should I ride her w-t, I would imagine that would speed up the process. Ick. I got shivers of imagining the FEELING. The grinding.

[FlashGordon]

Hey Flash, question-and in NO way is this smart assy-

When does one know when its er, time? For the big "E"? Obviously not NOW, but for the love of all things holy, this mare is 8 years old. And its BAD seeing it in xray form. Nearly no gap for fluid. Almost bone on bone. I figure that if the mare is officially retired TODAY, she'll be manageable for another 2 years or so. Should I ride her w-t, I would imagine that would speed up the process. Ick. I got shivers of imagining the FEELING. The grinding.

You're asking me? (And no, I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, just.... I'm no expert!!)

My opinion, FWIW? I wouldn't ride her. I wouldn't breed her. I'd give her 6 months to see how things go and whether or not she will or won't be pasture sound. And, even if she is "pasture sound" it may still be the right thing to do, to let her go.

Something to consider is the fact that the fused joint and altered gait may end up causing torquing or issues elsewhere in the body. I guess that has been touched on with the laminitis warning. She may end up really painful in general.

I suppose I'm a little bit biased-- having loved and cared for a horse whose fetlock fused after an extreme injury to the joint. He could gimp around his field. He hated his life. We kept him going for too long, for our own sake. Eventually (too late) we let him go.

I do understand and sympathize with your plight. My 22 year old TB came to me much like yours did. He's not rideable and never will be. He had some troubling urinary issues this summer and I started thinking, is it time? But he bounced back. He will see another WNY winter. ;)

I think when the time comes, you (and I) will know.

So sorry you are dealing with this, with a young horse no less.

[LittleblackMorgan]

I dont think my urge to ride is strong enough to climb up there knowing her leg is a time bomb. I actually think of my little Polish nana whose hands used to ache with the weather. Add 200lbs of rider and tack on that feeling? Not humane, I dont think.

I suppose moving her to the new barn with a nice run in, for $100 less a month up the street is the way to go. Hopefully that paddock isnt a mud pit-I would rather shy from the extra 100 for the inside stall, but if its muddy, well, its muddy and in she goes.

Trainer isnt happy, I believe she would rather me rehome the mare and purchase myself a spanking new Hanno 5 year old and train away, but my heart is my heart and for all intents and purposes, is a stupid muscle that has no regard for the wallet. Obviously. I asked my vet about the 5k incurred on the pony so far, and he said he's seen horses euth'd over money. Can't do it. No way. I would sell my eggs first (ok, thats drastic...but my show car, sure as sh*t). I told him "You do everything in your power to save this horse. Money is NO object" And he obliged. Course, DH and I have no kids, no car payments and live reasonable. In debt, but reasonable.

[Fharoah]

Is there a chance her fetlock could fuse completely and her be pain free and pasture sound? Best Wishes!

[LittleblackMorgan]

I do think so, its more than on its way.

[EqTrainer]

Not trying to be a bummer, but they are high motion joints and not designed to fuse, like hocks do.

[LittleblackMorgan]

Eq, aware of that. Exactly what the vet said to me. its pretty much required for movement. And if it hurts....well....

[EqTrainer]

Well, since you know...

and you asked..

I would inject it one time, with vetalog and HA. I would try to figure out if she is a candidate for long term low dose bute or equioxx therapy.

My goal would be to see if I could come up w/a maintenance program that kept her pasture sound. I would seriously consider moving her to a climate more hospitable to a young horse w/arthritis, she will need to be able to move a lot but I am not sure ice/snow would be a good idea.. Florida sounds good, except for the stomping at flies part...

I would not breed her, I would not ride her.. I would consider myself to be the guardian of her well-being until the day came that I could not make her comfortable. And then I would euthanize her, and be nothing but grateful that I had been able to make her comfortable for as long as I did. Which is not to say I would not cry - a lot :cry:

[AppJumpr08]

Oh I'm so sorry :(:(
I can't say as I'm totally surprised... it is an unfortunate result of racing when horses aren't managed as well as they could be... I would guess perhaps over injection played a part.... :sad:

::hugs:: to you - she's a lucky girl to have someone who cares about her so much.

I would hold off on the breeding thing for sure. I have a mare here who's ankle is fused, and she's quite comfortable. I have another mare who I'm waiting to see how she's going to finish... she was quite sore when I first got her, but is getting sounder, though the ankle is big and ugly. If she doesn't become comfortable soon, I'll euthanize her.... it's only fair...

It's a heartbreaking business. It really is.

[Fharoah]

Fetlocks can fuse and the horse can become pain free, you are left with a mechanical lameness but pasture sound.

[EqTrainer]

Don't high motion joints have to be surgically fused? It's highly unlikely that a fused high motion joint would not leave the horse in pain, if not directly in that joint, in every other joint that was taking up the slack.

[atr]

Actually, ice and snow (and even mud if not too slick) aren't that bad for ringbone--soft and cold. It's the rock hard, rough ground of summer that really does a number on them.

[EqTrainer]

Cold does sound good :)

but wouldn't she be more prone to slipping if the joint doesn't articulate? I would wonder how she'd "save" herself if she slipped on it. Sounds precarious to me (but remember, I live in the South because I hate ice and snow!)

[FlashGordon]

Don't high motion joints have to be surgically fused? It's highly unlikely that a fused high motion joint would not leave the horse in pain, if not directly in that joint, in every other joint that was taking up the slack.

That's what happened to the gelding I spoke of in my other post. He gimped so badly that he ended up with shoulder issues, back issues, and hind end issues. His joint was not surgically fused but it was essentially "locked" as a result of the injury and subsequent "healing."

OP I will hope for a better outcome for your girl. Injecting as EqT suggested is perhaps not a bad thing to try.

[JackieBlue]

Okay, I'm back and still alive. Your mare's fetlock will more than likely fully fuse over time and it sounds as though your vet has explained that to you. But that does not mean that she's pain free on easy street after that. Far from it. Fetlocks are very reactive, very necessary joints and when a horse loses motion in a fetlock many other compounding issues will crop up at some point or another.
In case we haven't been acquainted on the bb, LBM, I specialize in equine lower limb issues - deformities, injuries, joint abnormalities, etc... - and I see literally countless horses of all ages each year with various leg problems. It's all I do...legs. I'm not a vet, but I have the opportunity to see far more limb deformities, injuries and other leg issues than your average veterinarian because of how specialized I am. Veterinarians, horse owners and breeders worldwide contact me for assistance and consultation with horses and foals with leg problems, so I'm also drawing from a large population of numerous breeds from varied environments when I speak of my experiences.
As said earlier, fusing fetlock joints become fused fetlock joints and an equine leg, especially a front one, lacking motion in any one joint is a disaster waiting to happen. As motion in the fetlock is restricted due to bony changes (arthritis), the soft tissues will also suffer changes as they aren't being stretched and moved as they should be. All the other joints in the leg will suffer, but most notably the pastern joint and even moreso the coffin joint (the lowest joint in the horse's leg, where the coffin bone in the hoof meets the second pastern bone). Not to get too basic, but just in case it helps, there are four bones below the fetlock joint. There are the proximal phalanx (P1), the middle phalanx (P2), and the distal phalanx (P3, aka the coffin bone or pedal bone) and the distal sesamoid (aka the navicular bone). The navicular bone and P3 are connected tightly by the very tense impar ligament and there is not much motion between the 2 bones. The distal interphalangea jointl, or coffin joint, where the hoof connects to the pastern (where P2 and P3 meet) flexes and extends quite a bit during normal locomotion. The pastern joint (where P1, the bone just below the fetlock joint and P2, the bone just below that, meet) doesn't move a whole lot during locomotion, but what motion there is is considered to be quite important. The fetlock, where P1 articulates with (moves with) the cannon bone and the proximal sesamoids, is responsible for extensive flexing and extending during normal locomotion. The less motion the fetlock is capable of, the more stress is placed on the other joints of the leg.
So, as I mentioned, the soft tissues will tighten as the joint loses mobility. The flexor tendons, for example will lose elasticity and will exert an upward force on the distal (bottom) bones of the leg. Depending on how willing the mare is to weight the leg she may either develop a clubby foot on that leg (if she is unwilling to weight it properly) or she'll become more and more upright (straight up and down) through the pastern while her foot remains splayed and flat with a negative angle at the coronet band. A club foot is better than the second scenario because the subluxation (partial dislocation) that occurs in the distal interphalangeal joint is painful, as are the crushed, underrun heels and atrophied frog that often accompany that scenario. A club foot is actually a more stable weightbearing structure.
The knees of horses that have fused fetlock joints often deviate (become crooked - bowed out in most cases) because of stresses that are translated to the knee due to the unmoving fetlock joint.
The leg with the normal fetlock may be in more imminent danger than the so-called bad leg. Even a horse that appears sound on a fused fetlock is compensating by overweighting its opposite leg. This can be terribly detrimental. It is common to see the fetlock drop as the structures in the leg responsible for keeping it in happy suspension are over worked and begin to break down. The knee in the good leg will often become arthritic from overuse and may also suffer angular deformity, usually bowing outward under its abnormal load.
I've seen a number of horses with catastrophic injurues to the joints of their good leg, such as joint luxations (dislocation or a "coming apart" of the joints), usually at the fetlock. The hoof of the good leg will suffer, too, as a result of the abnormal load and subluxation of the coffin joint is a strong possibility there as well. A foot carrying more load than normal is under a lot of stress and may take on a splayed or flattened appearance.
I hope I've made a little more sense to you this time. If not, please just let me know. I love sharing my experiences and really hope to be of some help to you.
If I were you the first thing I would do is make sure I had a very knowledgeable and talented farrier as competent farriery can prolong this horse's life. And the lack thereof could easily shorten it. It's usually wise to put a bar shoe on the dominant weight bearing leg (the uninjured one) and many farriers would want extra support on the injured side as well. The bar on the good leg would typically have a slight heel wedge to it to help alleviate tension on the flexor tendons and to counteract the "bottoming out effect" of the excess weight on that leg. Do you already have a good farrier? Did your vet discuss long term managemet of this condition with you?
Again, I hope I've been helpful and not too boring!

[LittleblackMorgan]

Jackie, we are officially BB best friends:D


My farrier I have right now is competant, does a little corrective shoeing (no pour in pads or crack repairs, of that nature). He is the one who recommended the wedges, the vet seconded that and called the degree.

I do have another farrier on hand, albeit expensive, but he is close with the vet (collegue and friend) and they work well together. I have mentioned to the vet using him.
She is due for a trim and a reset Tuesday. There will be much conversation about this discovery.

I would post a pic of the xray but I didnt get them from the vet. They are digital, so I am sure he could sent em to me. Perhaps I could forward one to you and you could give me your thoughts?

So, to lay this out on the table-point blank and no BS-this girl's leg is a time bomb, right? Make her comfy, love on her, pet her groom her and give her carrots, no deep sand or deep mud, no riding, no lunging. Just retire her properly (as she damn well deserves, after 52 starts and 187k in winnings) and hope for the best.

-on a side note the vet said I could lightly trailride her. Like LIGHTLY. Part of me thinks that this is in part to Mr Fistulous Withers and his stallboundness since July, and the lack of riding (and tears, and money, and tears). Having spoken with all of you, and thinking about it away from the barn, she ought not to be ridden.:(

[EqTrainer]

LBM... you are a good egg.

[JackieBlue]

Aw, LBM, I'm flattered! I love finding new best friends. In my opinion, yes, the leg is a bit of a time bomb and should factor into decisions you make for her for the rest of her life, but if you manage her properly now - support the weightbearing foot, protect the injured fetlock - you should be able to keep her relatively happy.

As for the trail riding thing, low level physical acticity will be good for her. If she's an average sized TB and if you and your tack weigh 200 pounds, that's less than 20% of her bodyweight. If you figure 20% of your own bodyweight and imagine walking leisurely around carrying, it's really not such a big deal. You're being honest with yourself about her limitations and I'm positive that you'd take it easy on her and back off if she seemed uncomfortable. If she's sound at the walk and capable of standing squarely on all fours then strolling about even with you on her may do her some good.

I would LOVE to see her x-rays if it's not too much trouble for you to obtain them. Do you have any pictures of her in which the front legs are clearly visible from the sides and front?

[LittleblackMorgan]

I do not have a pic of her at the moment, I will get some in the morning for sure. She is `15.3, 16 with her high heels on, between 1000-1100lbs (she was 8 and change in July). She is ferocious about girthing, has tried to kick me (perhaps she was saying "don't ride me, a$$hole! my leg hurts!). And in retrospect I see why picking the RF was a PIA...it was the flex....

Next week the weather is going to warm up to 60 (my heat is on right now, its about oh, 36 out here?) I'm sure she will feel well then. Trainer emailed and offered an opening stall on site (which while expensive, makes the horse-lovin time much easier with 2).

I will speak with the vet tomorrow and see if I can get an emailed radiograph or a CD. The pony has his weekly visit Tues.

Someone mentioned earlier moving her to a warmer climate? I had to LOL at that, picturing my girl with a grey forelock, the a-typical New England/Floridian snowbird. But seriously, can't do that.

[sdlbredfan]

I think EqTrainer had some good advice, and JackieBlue is a gold mine of info! The advice from ET that I think is very good is the "I would consider myself to be the guardian of her well-being until the day came that I could not make her comfortable. And then I would euthanize her, and be nothing but grateful that I had been able to make her comfortable for as long as I did".

One thing I'd recommend in the meantime, since cold usually makes arthritis more painful, is use standing wraps or shipping boots that cover the fetlock over the Winter, (or maybe JackieBlue has a Dynasplint product to recommend?), to keep both front legs warm and supported.

[Ozalynda]

I just wish my trainer would back me on this. She keeps asking if I am serious. I keep saying YES. But, she says, then I would have 3 horses. And it would be YEARS before I could ride the baby.

Haven't read through all the responses, so I apologise if someone else already said this, but what it sounds to me like is your trainer is worried that it will be YEARS before you need her services again. As others have said- follow your gut (if your bank account can keep up).

[AppJumpr08]

I don't have anything to add, you've gotten excellent advice.

But I do want to say thank you for doing everything you can for a mare who, had she not found you, could've easily become a "throw away".
You deserve huge, huge kudos.

[Puddin Pie]

Kudo's for you for trying. I tried everything for Chello and his fusing coffin joint-yet another high motion joint, that really can't fuse. And when it became obvious to me that this was not life for a horse, we made the decision. And thankfully we made it when we did. The next week we had a massive heat wave. He would have been miserable. If you can keep her comfy-great, if not, then make the call and let her go with dignity. It is a rough decision to make, either way.

[FlashGordon]

So, to lay this out on the table-point blank and no BS-this girl's leg is a time bomb, right? Make her comfy, love on her, pet her groom her and give her carrots, no deep sand or deep mud, no riding, no lunging. Just retire her properly (as she damn well deserves, after 52 starts and 187k in winnings) and hope for the best.


I know it reeeaaalllly sucks.

A wise person once told me not to give up trying to make the horse better, but to do so without expectation. Once I latched on to that I found a lot of peace. Just take one day at a time and try not to think too much about the next day, or the next week.

And I know what you mean about the winters up here. It is hard to find appropriate retirement situations, that offer both turnout and very necessary shelter or a stall, at reasonable prices. Hopefully you're able to find something suitable for her (and you) that doesn't break the bank!

In the meantime I'll jingle for your gelding, hopefully you'll have a horse to ride soon!

[Fharoah]

I was going through this with my gelding who was diagnosed with ringbone in June after a two year battle with collateral ligament desmitis. After joint injections and IRAP, extended rest legend and adequan failed to produce soundness I decided to have his pastern surgically fused. They do do fetlock arthrodesis which is for the goal of taking away the pain and making the horse pasture sound.

You are in a very tough place, my deepest heatfelt sympathies!

[LittleblackMorgan]

So the mare (whose name is Sophia, BTW) was very stiff this morning, as it was a brisk 35 degrees out. She spent the night in the pony's stall, he slept in another stall. She was in good spirits (enough to nip my jacket arm when removing her blanket...LOL).
I had a person tell me today to (and this is a legit direct quote)
"Don't listen to the vet...the mare has come a long way...you CAN ride her! take what he said with a grain of salt!" SHEESH. I nod and smile, nod and smile....

Had a convo about the mare with the trainer. She said the only reason she was concerned was my finances with Mr Fistulous Withers and now Wonky Leg, and putting my showing aspiriations on hold. She had spoken to the vet yesterday and he told her the mare should be fine for breeding.

I said-if I got rid of her-broodmare lease, free lease companion-whatever-I would not be able to live with myself. At least, with me, I know she is loved (and still a b&tch, LOL), well fed and cared for. Screw the money, and showing can wait. I'm 28 with no kids and none on the horizon-whats another year til Mr. FW is 100% and I show him? She said, ok, she wanted to make sure I knew what I was up against, and she did agree that no horse, especially Sophia, could be a throw away (she is madly in love with the mare-bit&hy and all).

And, holy crap the stars must have aligned or SOMETHING, but someone gave their notice at the barn and a stall, with a very DRY FLAT surfaced paddock opened up. And no ONE EVER leaves our barn. Most have been there at least 4 years, some as long as 8 (the barn was built in '01).

So, sweet Sybil Sophia shall live like a pasture princess until she is unable to enjoy her life anymore.

Psssh....who needs the hunter ring anyway....

[Fharoah]

I admire your commitment and love for your mare! Best Wishes!

[JackieBlue]

Sophia is SO lucky to have you. And I'm sure you're lucky to have her, too. We usually find the animals we're meant to have. ;)

[LittleblackMorgan]

thanks. Funny thing is, most little girls dream of having a black horse due to the Black Stallion and Black Beauty.

BOTH of my horses are black, my pony is jet black, no white anywhere, like the BS, and Sophia is jet black, like BB, with a perfect white star...apparently I am destined to have black horses! Talk about luck!

Jackie, I forgot my camera. But I WILL post those pics here, and the xrays. When I get them on Tues.

[sdlbredfan]

Awesome news, on the "the stars must have aligned or SOMETHING, but someone gave their notice at the barn and a stall, with a very DRY FLAT surfaced paddock opened up".
Jeanie

[LittleblackMorgan]

Well, Rodawn, thats the plan. I told my trainer that Sophia can be a pasture puff, the pony's doing better, and screw it, I'm a-gonna save my pesos and buy me a Hanno in a year or so. Depends on how she is doing, and I have no clue how much retirement board is around these parts...and how reliable...

[Zu Zu]

So glad this has worked out for all involved ~ best of Luck !