If you could ask a judge anything.....

[SGray]

what would you ask a judge - not specific to a particular ride or performance

questions about judging or what they look for or what bothers them most or......

[Dressage Art]

How can judges decrease their personal bias = the one that they are not aware that they have? Bias that they will swear they do not have, but at every show for many years a particular "looking" horses end up on the bottom (or top) of their list over and over and over again? How can judges can be made aware of their own illusive personal biases?

Admitting it is the first step, but how do you get judges to admit it?

[slc2]

I think that's not a way to have a constructive conversation.


If I could ask a judge anything, I'd ask what keeps them enthused about judging, despite the frustrations, pressures and difficulties.

[narcisco]

I asked my coach this question once (S judge) and she said, "I am obsessed with straightness."

[GreekDressageQueen]

How can judges decrease their personal bias = the one that they are not aware that they have? Bias that they will swear they do not have, but at every show for many years a particular "looking" horses end up on the bottom (or top) of their list over and over and over again? How can judges can be made aware of their own illusive personal biases?

Admitting it is the first step, but how do you get judges to admit it?

Ditto. Ditto. DITTO! :D

And...

Q: Why do you give generic comments like "needs more elasticity" when it is obvious the rider is on a non-traditional dressage horse? Maybe try "needs to take longer steps" or "try to get more swing in the back" or something that would actually indicate how to make it better cuz my horse will never have "elastic" steps like a floaty moving WB.

[dressurpferd01]

Ditto. Ditto. DITTO! :D

And...

Q: Why do you give generic comments like "needs more elasticity" when it is obvious the rider is on a non-traditional dressage horse? Maybe try "needs to take longer steps" or "try to get more swing in the back" or something that would actually indicate how to make it better cuz my horse will never have "elastic" steps like a floaty moving WB.

Then you'll never score as well as a horse bred and built for dressage. I'm sick of complaining of lower scores for horses that are purpose bred and built for something other than what their owners want them to do. If you want better comments and higher scores, get a better moving horse.

[mbm]

Ditto. Ditto. DITTO! :D

And...

Q: Why do you give generic comments like "needs more elasticity" when it is obvious the rider is on a non-traditional dressage horse? Maybe try "needs to take longer steps" or "try to get more swing in the back" or something that would actually indicate how to make it better cuz my horse will never have "elastic" steps like a floaty moving WB.

i am not judge, but .... because "elasticity" is part of the directives and rules of dressage and "bigger steps" isn't? plus, a judge isnt supposed to tell you how to fix it, only tell you what pieces (of said directives) are missing for your score to be better.

[Knothead]

Then you'll never score as well as a horse bred and built for dressage. I'm sick of complaining of lower scores for horses that are purpose bred and built for something other than what their owners want them to do. If you want better comments and higher scores, get a better moving horse.

I completely understand what you are saying, but there are many of us that "fell" into dressage on a non-dressage horse for a plethora of reasons. And the reasons we still have that horse can be anything from the bond with that animal, the inability to afford another horse or a second horse, the loyalty to a horse that has tried his/her little heart out for you, the tiny bit of success you've tasted with the horse, etc. I have a horse that is definitely in the category of being discriminated against, if a particular judge has a bias. For the most part, I've had good experiences, but in those experiences where it's CLEAR (not by just one comment, by but many comments) that my horse is not of "acceptable" breeding, it stings. It's been said a million times before...all horses can and do benefit from dressage. But I digress.

I would like to ask a judge a ton of questions (and have, as a scribe many times)...but it's hard to think of just one as I sit here. I kind of relate my questions to what's going on in a particular test at a particular time.

[alteringwego]

i am not judge, but .... because "elasticity" is part of the directives and rules of dressage and "bigger steps" isn't? plus, a judge isnt supposed to tell you how to fix it, only tell you what pieces (of said directives) are missing for your score to be better.

right- if you want how to fix it, go to a clinic.

[slc2]

elasticity equals warmblood

This represents a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'elasticity' in dressage.

[Timex]

^what slc said!!^

[NorCalDressage]

ELASTICITY
The ability or tendency to stretch and contract the musculature smoothly, giving the impression of
stretchiness or springiness.

[GreekDressageQueen]

Then you'll never score as well as a horse bred and built for dressage. I'm sick of complaining of lower scores for horses that are purpose bred and built for something other than what their owners want them to do. If you want better comments and higher scores, get a better moving horse.

WTF? I never complained about my scores in my post. I do just fine at 3rd level and bring home quite a few blue ribbons, but I'm not riding for ribbons. If you show enough you know that some judges give crap "cookie cutter" comments like "needs more bend," "more elasticity" yadda yadda yadda but it doesn't really explain the score or address any issue. There have been a few times I would read a score sheet (sometimes with my trainer too) and go "Huh?" :lol: I'm positive I'm not the only one. :)

Yes, perhaps that isn't the judge's job to address particulars. Nevertheless, I would love for a judge to follow up on some of their short, generic comments on the bottom of the score sheet to at least add some context, but a lot of them don't. Telling me I have "a cute horse" or "nice turnout" doesn't explain why I only got a 60%!

That's what I'm saying...

But yes, I agree that if you want to be competitive at dressage then buy a "dressage" horse. But I see plenty of "dressage" horses that are less straight and less balanced that score better than other horses because they have a wonderful trot or present "elasticity." Let's be fair and admit that a "dressage" horse is a certain looking horse that moves a certain way, which doesn't have anything to do with "proper training" or the training scale. ;)

[RiverOaksFarm]

I guess my answer is in line with Dressage Art's post about biases...

As a competitor, I'd like to know what their bias is, particularly if I'm about to ride in front of them ;).

[mbm]

question about "bias" - how do you know something is a bias or just the way they believe the rules/directives should be applied?

say for example a judge that believes for a excellent score you need a horse that is through, swinging engaged etc..... is this a bias against horses that don't show this?

[slc2]

Good point.

LOL.

When a test is less accurate, less through, less obedient, less forward, it's going to score lower. There isn't any way around that, and it isn't bias that causes that to happen. That's plain old judging standards, correctly applied.

[poltroon]

I would ask, "What quality about a horse and rider, as they enter the ring, makes you look forward in anticipation to seeing the ride?"

[mbm]

or, how about" what one single change would help most rides score higher?"

[dotneko]

Can I play?

I'll answer the last two (at least in my opinion)

When you come up the centerline I want to see a businesslike
entry, soft halt, prompt upward transition, then I want you to
trot straight at me like you are going to trot right into the booth
with me. That's how you get a high score from me.
I don't like to see riders who come into the arena apologising for
being there.

The one thing I would advise riders to focus on is the accuracy of
their figures. There are no corners in serpentines! or circles.
I showed a '6-7' mover pretty successfully at FEI levels because
I did not give points away by being inaccurate.

Dot

[Mardi]

why do they gossip to the scribe about the personal life of the rider being judged ?

[Wayside]

I'll admit it, I'm curious about judges' pet peeves :lol: We all make mistakes, but I know there must be some that really drive people up the wall when they see them happen in a test.

And on the positive side, Poltroon's question is an excellent one!

[quietann]

I would like to know what makes a judge laugh. (I've had it happen; it was not a "making fun of me" laugh, but a laugh that corresponded to a comment "frisky!" WRT a canter depart....

[dotneko]

I laugh when I have a 'what on earth do I say about that??!!??'
moment. It usually involves a disagreement between horse and
rider about the amount of submission involved in a movement.

I have some sympathy - I can rememeber a lesson with Kathy
Connelly where my horse threw in a buck in the ones and I
laughed. She chastised me about not having a 'grand prix' a
attitude. I replied "God love him, if at 18 he can still supply
editorial comments on my aids'.

Dot

[SGray]

there is no need to restrict yourself to one question -- ask away

[Eclectic Horseman]

Why are so many judging comments in the lower levels directed at the head and neck position of the horse? Is this what they learn in the USDF judging program?

I find it to be so counterproductive. Students are taught that we are not looking for a head set, not looking for a "frame," blah, blah, blah. And then the judges countermand this by most frequently giving comments like "poll not the highest point."

Wouldn't it be more helpful and more correct for the judge to comment on the hindquarters and say something like "croup high" or other comment more in line with the proper mind set for dressage training?

I see so many "poll too low" throwaway comments, that it is no surprise that I see so many competitors holding their horses with short high necks and hollow backs.