Update on the monster dog. [Archive]

BuddyRoo

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:38 PM

I have a 6 YO lab. Last May, he had trouble with cluster seizures. Has been on phenobarbital since. No seizures and we've actually been reducing his dose.

He's on a very restricted diet for two reasons: 1) we think that it was maybe a protein or chemical in one of the treats my neighbors gave him that triggered the seizures and 2) he had a bout of pancreatitis last August when said neighbors forgot and gave him a hot dog.

Well...I suck. I left some salmon out on the counter last night (leftovers, cooked, and not much left but the skin and maybe 3 bites of meat). Wouldn't you know that I woke up to shredded fishy smelling tin foil on the floor. He ate it.

He ate his breakfast as normal this a.m. When I was mowing, I noticed several spots in the yard where he'd had very loose stools and observed him going once.

No vomiting. Not running a fever. Still drinking.

But he's walking around with his back kind of hunched and abdomen tucked in--acting like it hurts to walk. Pretty lethargic. Not acting painful when I palpate his abdomen--but he's rather stoic.

I suspect that the salmon kicked off some more GI upset and pancreatitis. The last time we went through this, it was just a matter of fasting him and then giving a bland diet for a few days. My small animal vet isn't open on the weekends and I really don't want to go to MSU on emergency because I don't think it's emergent YET.

What say you? Keep an eye? If he starts vomiting or gets worse take him in?

I don't think there's an obstruction--he did not eat the tin foil, just tore it into pieces.

cloudyandcallie

Jul. 11, 2009, 03:13 PM

I've never had a dog walk around like that even when Binky the aussie had pancreatitis as a baby---------she threw up bile, lots of yellow bile.

Can you call your vet and ask him/her if you can give activated charcoal?
I have a big tube from jeffersequine that can be used for dogs or horses if they ingest something (poison, etc) but I don't know if the vet would say give it in your dog's case.

I'd be trying to flush the kidneys and liver with as much fluids as I could get into the dog, and I'd be on the phone with the vet or the emergency hospital asking for advice. It's free on the phone, and they shoud be able to help you.

Nanerpus

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:41 PM

I don't know if pancreatitis is the same for dogs as it is for humans, but I have had it twice (familial, its in the genes I guess), and if it is DO NOT TRY TO FLUSH WITH AS MUCH LIQUID AS POSSIBLE!

When I was in the hospital I was on IV FLUIDS for five days, NO WATER OR FOOD BY MOUTH. This only stimulates the pancreas to produce MORE enzymes, which is NOT GOOD because during a bout of pancreatitis the pancreas is overproducing enzymes and basically digesting itself, causing sometimes damage such as scar tissue or worse.

My advice would be if you even suspect it, call your vet because the protocol might be the same as with humans, or similar, and you don't want to try to diagnose it and make it worse by doing what you think is right when it might not be, like pushing fluids, etc. You might need to take away all food and water and bring him in for a course of IV fluids and nutrients.

I can tell you that pancreatitis is the worst pain (in your upper abdomen/ sternum) that I have EVER gone through in my life, seriously. I would call my vet because your dog could be feeling really lousy.

Jingles and best wishes!!!! He's lucky to have such a caring, concerned owner like you.

cloudyandcallie

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:45 PM

Oh good post nanerpus.
I was thinking of "getting the poisons out."

When Binky got it I rushed her to the vet right away, all the bile coming out meant I wasn't putting anything in her or trying to do so.

I'd get the dog to the vet or call the vet who is the reg. vet at home and ask what to do or what not to do.

Marshfield

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:59 PM

E-clinic is likely in order. Standard treatment given your dog's history is likely to include some major IV fluids and nothing by mouth for awhile. The other plus to hospital care is that there would be someone with him to give him IV valium if he starts having a seizure as a consequence of the pancreatitis.

Mega Rock

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:11 PM

One of my dogs had a bout of Pancreatitis. I took him to the vet and they had me feeding him boiled hamburger and boiled white rice to help calm his bowls while the medication they put him on started doing it's job as well. Hope your pup feels better!

Pancakes

Jul. 11, 2009, 06:23 PM

Pancreatitis in dogs makes me think "vomiting" immediately, but not all dogs read the book...
A fatty fish like salmon may have been enough to put your pup over the edge, especially if he's had an angry pancreas in the past.

I would say bring him in if he truly looks like he's in pain and is stoic normally. At worst, you'd be spending money on fluids and he'd get better on his own anyway. At best, you'd be heading off a potentially deadly episode.

JanM

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:12 PM

When my dog had pancreatitis it turned out she was getting berries off the ground-they were from Virginia Creeper (who knew it even had berries? not me). They can get it triggered from any rich food source including berries, fruit and fatty meat. As I recall they had me withhold food for 24 hours, very little water, and they gave me ampecillin liquid for every few hours. Of course, my dog had vomitting and diarrhea (and we aren't talking a little either). I know she was in pain and her stomach was very tucked. It could be the dog got the salmon and something else too-it's amazing what they'll eat, and some foil might be going through too (we didn't call the backyard when we had the lab 'The Minefield" for nothing-the foil reflections were very telling about who ate the rolled tums). I think you should go to the dog ER-pancreatitis gets worse each time and they can die from it.

Mara

Jul. 11, 2009, 09:40 PM

Salmon also hides those little spiny bones quite well. It's a remote possibility, I know, but just thought I'd toss it out there. . .

Jingles for for the baby-dog!

Nes

Jul. 12, 2009, 08:42 AM

Something very similar happened to my father's golden a couple weeks ago, lost his appetite got really lethargic. They took him into the ER and found out he had a massive tumour and had ruptured his spleen. He wasn't upset about having his abdomen palpitated but was so sick my poor father had to carry a 110 pound (he had thyroid issues + being huge) down the stairs and out to the car. I will never take a little belly pain lightly again :eek:

I'll bet he's just feeling pretty sick to his stomach though, especially if he doesn't get any fish in his normal diet.

Bluey

Jul. 12, 2009, 08:44 AM

Any news this morning?

BuddyRoo

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:58 AM

Pancakes

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:32 AM

Sorry guys for the lack of update. I appreciate your replies. I did get a hold of the vet and since he was resting comfortably here and still drinking water, no vomiting and not getting worse, we decided to just keep him home for the day and skip his dinner.

I HATE that panicky feeling..like "OMG, here we go again!" Grrr.

His vitals are good, I gave him about 1/2 cup of food this a.m., and he seems much more comfortable though he's still lethargic. Last time this happened, he gave me zero clues other than he wouldn't eat his breakfast one morning. The receptionist at the clinic actually told me not to worry, but he's an eater--so I took him in and we ran the bloodwork and sure enough....so the vet thinks he's just much more sensitive at this point. I guess the phenobarbital can contribute?

Anyway....I canceled my plans yesterday and last night and just stayed home with him to monitor. Hopefully, we're over the hump.

Yeah, once you have an angry pancreas, it takes *very* little to push it over the edge again. I'm glad you took him in. I think the phenobarb probably contributes to the liver aspect of it...though I am not on top of my pathophys at the moment so I can't really comment.

Better to err on the side of caution with things like pancreatitis, especially if there are other complicating factors...you did the right thing. I hope he does better today...keep us updated! Jingles for you both.

Bluey

Jul. 12, 2009, 12:19 PM

Good to know he is better, maybe over the hump this time.

A friend had a schnauzer that had that problem and she had a hard time for the few years he lived, with a flare-up here and there. It is very hard on the dog and it was really hard on her also.
I hope today they know better and can help him along.

On the epilepsy, my dog's liver values were starting to look funky after a year on phenobarbitol, so the vet decided we taper off and see where we go and she has been seizure free on no medication now for several months.
We never know what is best, just try to do best we can with what we have and the knowledge to use it.

I bet he had a good time with that salmon and don't mind the hangover too much.;)

ASB Stars

Jul. 12, 2009, 12:35 PM

I am so glad he is doing better- I have an older Brittany who has had pancreatitis.

I am a fan of being as wholistic as is reasonable and practical. I love Dr. Pitcairns book, and it helped me with my dog, when he got sick. It recommended putting the dog on broth- preferably chicken, with low sodium and no fat, if possible. Darby also visited the Vet, but the Vet- not my usual associate- had sent us home with ABs. I had a bad feeling about them, started him on the broth, and then got a call the next AM from the Vet- after review of the bloodwork, they had decided NO AB's- and I breathed a sigh of relief.

Darby has not had a recurrance.

BuddyRoo

Jul. 12, 2009, 01:01 PM

Bluey--I have to wonder if he will consider counter surfing again in the future. LOL I often wonder what their capacity is to link together experiences.

I'm home with him again today and he seems to really be perking up--even got in the pool.

We are working towards getting him off the phenobarbital, but we've been going slowly. He used to have an iron gut...but now not so much. I really do think the phenobarb is part of the issue. As he's only 6, I would like very much to get him off the meds if we can.

in the meantime, I shall be much more careful about leaving anything out. He's already on a restricted diet, but when I left it out and fell asleep? My fault. Sigh.

BuddyRoo

Aug. 29, 2009, 12:52 PM

It's been a long week. I have now accumulated 8 1/2 hours of sleep in 4 days...6 of which were last night. So now that I'm cogent...here's an update:

Dog had history of pancreatitis in the last year since starting phenobarb. Threw up dinner Sunday night, no interest in food at all Monday. Took him in Tuesday a.m. and we did rads to rule out obstruction and blood work showed high amylase--an indicator for pancreatitis.

We did IV fluids and fasting. He spent Tues and Wed in the hospital during the day, home w/ me at night. Vomiting continued. In fact, got worse. Sent in cTLI and cPLI Wed.

Thursday a.m. I took him in and we did another set of rads. Stomach was huge and filled with fluid. He hadn't had anything PO for days at that point. Decided to do barium and more rads. Found a blockage that wasn't showing up without the barium.

Did emergency surgery on Thursday at noon. Rope toy, small intestine.

Got the results back from the cTLI and cPLI yesterday--normal. Not pancreatitis. JUST the obstruction.

He is doing great now. On heavy pain meds, but eating and drinking a little every 2 hours since yesterday noon. hasn't pooped yet, but there was poop on the thermometer when I took his temp this a.m. so I think it's just a matter of volume--he's only gotten 3 cans of food in the last 24 hours a few tablespoons at a time.

Crossing fingers, but I think we're on the right road now.

Thank you Katherine for looking at the other thread...and to others for your input and ideas.

Bluey

Aug. 29, 2009, 12:57 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 29, 2009, 12:57 PM

Oh, that is wonderful news, glad you got to the root cause of the problem, and I hope your dog is well on the road to recovery, and never gives you another scare like that.

alacrity

Aug. 29, 2009, 12:59 PM

Glad they found the problem BuddyRoo!!! Hopefully your dog will be back to his normal self very soon. :)

BuddyRoo

Aug. 29, 2009, 01:03 PM

Thanks...

As an FYI...rope toys are not allowed in my house to begin with. They don't show up on rads. BUT, the blue Kongs are treated with something that DOES show up...so if you have an active chewer, that might be a good choice!

Turns out that my roommate gave him a rope toy on Saturday while I was at the horse trial. I never buy them and don't allow them...FOR THIS REASON.

Also, neighbor did confirm that he gave a bratwurst to my dog Friday night. But, apparently since we've been weaning him off the phenobarb, it didn't cause a problem. He's totally off the phenobarb now.

We're going to take a nap here after the next feeding/med cycle...

BuddyRoo

Aug. 29, 2009, 01:05 PM

That was a close call, going by previous history almost made them lose sight of the new problem for a little.:eek:

Those surgeries generally are uneventfull, so maybe he will be fine soon.:cool:

Get some more sleep.:)

Thanks Bluey.

Actually, we DID think blockage at first which is why we did the rads right away...but nothing showed up on those AND the amylase was high which kind of sent us down the other path.

My vet did say that even if she had seen a blockage Tues, she would've recommended flooding with fluids to see if it would pass prior to doing surgery so I think we would've gone down the same road regardless.

Upside: I've now seen all of my dog's internal organs! LOL They let me stand in for the surgery.

Downside: I'm 3k poorer.

Bluey

Aug. 29, 2009, 01:11 PM

Boy, you have earned some nap time.:yes:

My little dog has also been off pheno now since early spring and no seizures, for now.
They may return when she is older, but her numbers were also starting to be a little bit off, so it was time to give weaning her a try.

Labs and their crosses tend to eat most anything, indiscriminately.
I have friends that had good sized rocks taken out of their innards.:p

It may be time to have a serious talk with that room mate and see if she would feel a little help on the bills would not be a nice gesture on her part, since she caused it.:(

BuddyRoo

Aug. 29, 2009, 01:25 PM

I hope your pup doesn't have issues w/ the seizures. We are pretty sure that the seizure incident we had last year was due to a chemical in a treat. We tested for everything under the sun. After the initial cluster seizures and the induced coma, he's had zero in over a year. Hence the idea to take him off slowly.

He HAD been on 1 1/2 tabs of 1 1/2 grain phbrb twice daily. Then down to 1 tab BID, then 1 SID, no totally off. Crossing fingers.

Roomie is a law student living off of savings. She feels horrible. But it was an accident. She burst into tears when she saw the thing in the baggy.

I think a lot of people think that my "rules" are silly...and they're just trying to be "nice" to the dog. But still.

I am blessed with a great vet...and I am blessed that we got it figured out and he's doing well. Not out of the woods...but doing well.

kmsf

Aug. 29, 2009, 01:31 PM

Glad that things are hopefully resolving!

Kiwayu

Aug. 29, 2009, 01:41 PM

Jingles for your dog! I've been down that foreign body obstruction road way too many times with my previous dog. I spent about 20K last year trying to save her,

The worst foreign body was FOUR $100 bills. I said to the vet, "it's obviously yours once you retrieve it". :sigh:

BuddyRoo

Aug. 30, 2009, 10:59 AM

bump for my peeps.

The patient is doing well and I intend to sleep in my own bed tonight! Whoot!

Bluey

Aug. 30, 2009, 11:15 AM

Good for you!
Sleeping on the floor, on some kind of arrangement, with a sick dog is kind of cramping, is it.
Some times, I just put the matress down and we both slept on it.:)

Thanks for letting us know he is doing well this morning.:cool:

BuddyRoo

Aug. 30, 2009, 11:48 AM

Yep Bluey...

Night 1 (Tuesday) I slept on his spare dog bed, next to his crate--until he projectile vomited on it (and me).

Night 2 (Wed) was horrible so I never slept at all.

Night 3 (Thurs) I finally go the bright idea to pull out the aerobed (not sure why I didn't think of that sooner. Still didn't sleep but was more comfortable than the hardwood/ceramic tile and a blanket.

Night 4 (Friday) he didn't have the IV in anymore so I put up gates in the kitchen, blocked the dog door, and he alternated between sleeping in his crate and sleeping w/ me. Still had to get up every two hours and wanted to stay in the kitchen in case of vomiting....

Night 5 (Sat) Same deal as Friday. Up every 2 hours and out for a walk, but doing great!

So...tonight, I think I'll keep him in the kitchen because he's not supposed to jump up on beds/furniture...but I will sleep in my own bed. Two hours at a time.

He's looking so much better though. Gosh. I'm so thankful!

BuddyRoo

Oct. 14, 2009, 10:59 PM

Lex mentioned that I had left everyone hanging...so I wanted to update.

The monster is doing GREAT! We did remove the obstruction surgically and he healed well. I would still encourage people NOT to give their dogs rope toys. They were forbidden in my house, but when I was gone for a day at an XC trial, my roommate gave him one as a "treat". Guess what we pulled out of his intestines? Rope toy knot.

He's doing really well now though.

We were also able to release a lot of the adhesions from his previous pancreatitis and took him off of phenobarb...no seizures now in nearly 18 mos. Been off the phenobarb since August. Keeping fingers crossed!