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EquineRacers
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:24 PM
Since when does Baby Green Hunters 2'0 consist of 2'3" jumps with oxers and solid fences?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I took BIG to his 3rd show last Sunday and entered him in Baby Green Hunters, thinking they were just going to have little 2' verticles. Oh no, they had 3 verticles, 4 oxers, and 1 solid brick wall. What the he**???? My friend, who also had a greenie, even made the judge come out and messure out the jumps. The judge said most of the fences were about 2'3", but would not change them because she said it would throw off the lines! She would not even drop the back rail on the oxers. I'm also convinced that solid brick wall was 2'6", it was HUGE! (Why does everything look big when you are on a green horse?)

Horsegurlmercury
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:28 PM
Most shows have Baby Greens set a 2'6" as preparation for the 3' Pre Greens the next year.

snaffle635
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:45 PM
2'6" is standard height for baby greens where I am.

JOBEAN
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:57 PM
I've never heard of baby greens being lower than 2.6

Jaegermonster
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:59 PM
In my area as well, what you described would be called Beginner hunter or beginner Rider. Baby Green is 2'6.

MHM
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:01 PM
2'6" is standard height for baby greens where I am.

Ditto.

However, since it's not a USEF division, specs could vary from show to show. If the prize list said 2' with no oxers, that's what it should be.

GingerLily
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:01 PM
Where I show (NE Ohio) Baby Greens is 2'3" sometimes with and sometimes without oxers but they usually include flower boxes, gates, walls, etc. and Very Greens is 2'6" with oxers. Neither have in-and-outs. Some shows only have Very Greens but some shows offer both divisions.

joiedevie99
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:07 PM
Around here Baby Greens is a fully decorated 2'6"

ExJumper
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:28 PM
Baby Green here is also a decorated solid 2'6".

Wizard of Oz's
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:35 PM
My local circuit has baby green at 2'6", oxers, rolltops, walls, etc included. I've never really understood why they don't have a lower class for green horses at the locals, because IMO if they are showing at 2'6" with walls, rolltops, etc., to me they aren't really that green anymore;)

SkipChange
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:38 PM
Ditto. Solid 2'6" with full decorations (oxers, rolltops, walls, gates, flowers, brush).

ponypro123
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:45 PM
I've always thought the baby greens were 2'6", but if it said 2' no oxars in your prize list, then that's what you should have gotten!

chunky munky
Oct. 14, 2009, 09:03 PM
i guess it is called read the specs in theprize list.

Go Fish
Oct. 14, 2009, 09:15 PM
West Coast - 2'6". fully decorated, just like the big guy classes. You can only show one year here in the Baby Greens.

JOBEAN
Oct. 14, 2009, 09:33 PM
West Coast - 2'6". fully decorated, just like the big guy classes. You can only show one year here in the Baby Greens.

East Coast the same - one year only.

Gry2Yng
Oct. 14, 2009, 10:59 PM
My local circuit has baby green at 2'6", oxers, rolltops, walls, etc included. I've never really understood why they don't have a lower class for green horses at the locals, because IMO if they are showing at 2'6" with walls, rolltops, etc., to me they aren't really that green anymore;)

Well, my babies go to their first show in the Baby Greens and show at 2'6" fully decorated, so if it is their first show, that is about as green as they get. I do the work at home so they are ready for the class in which they are entered.

tBHj
Oct. 15, 2009, 12:16 AM
Baby greens in my area are 2'6 except in two shows it's 18".

Haalter
Oct. 15, 2009, 02:08 AM
IMO if they are showing at 2'6" with walls, rolltops, etc., to me they aren't really that green anymore;)Since I'm older than dirt, I remember the days when greens were 3'6" and there wasn't anything lower. Plenty of horses showed in those 3'6" classes a few weeks off the racetrack. Rated shows with 3' divisions were few and far between, and lower than 3' with the exception of pony clases was unheard of. Not saying that today's system isn't better for the horses, just that it's not the only way it's ever been done.

Around here the baby greens at the rated shows are 2'6" with all types of jumps, oxers and solid stuff included. Agree though that if the prize list specified 2' for this division, that's how the jumps should have been set.

findeight
Oct. 15, 2009, 09:47 AM
What did the prize list say? What do the rules of whatever association may have offered points for it have the specs at?

My area it's 2'6"? as well, fully decorated, walls, oxers, whatever.

So, the answer to OPs question about since when is since forever most places unless the prize list or association rulebook (if any) states otherwise.

Gwendolyn
Oct. 15, 2009, 10:05 AM
I am doing the baby greens with Dora this weekend and it is listed as 2'0-2'3 and it is fully decorated. There are some gates but I don't think there are any walls. The verticals run about 2'3 and the oxers 2'0.

As a side note, I prefer little stuff for the babies as I can take them when they are younger and they can get accustomed to the show atmosphere. I even sponsored a w/t/poles class for the 3 1/2 year olds a few years ago. I usually show once a month with the babies, so they start out w/t/poles then go to crossrails, then 18" and so on. They usually move up at each show.

whbar158
Oct. 15, 2009, 10:26 AM
Maybe it is just me, but maybe your horse shouldn't be showing if it can't jump an oxer at 2'3"? My experience even at very small schooling shows is that anything that has inside lines usually includes oxers and solid jumps. I only know of one show where it is not true and their highest division is 2'. I took a very green baby to a show over the summer to do the baby greens at a schooling show. 2' with oxers, solids, flowers, gates. We practiced at home and went schooling at a few places before the show, had one look in schooling then was perfect. I do not understand wanting to show a green horse at 2' more than a few times, and really 2'6" isn't very big for a horse either.

Has your horse not jumped oxers? I have always introduced those pretty early, as well as solids, they jump them better and lazy horses learn that it hurts a little more to hit those. The baby I rode over the summer had a serious issue with gates and pickets but was ready for the show and it was actually the coop that he had an issue with!

TSWJB
Oct. 15, 2009, 11:11 AM
(Why does everything look big when you are on a green horse?)
it sure does look huge when you are mounted on a green horse!
the shows around here, the baby greens are 2.6ft. some say 2.3ft but i dont see them change the fences.
if you want to show 2ft do beginner hunter. i started mine in beginner hunter and they had oxers and walls as well. but they were 2ft. but oxers did have a little spread on it.
i moved up to the 2.6ft after two shows because my trainer thought 2ft was too small for my horse.
well first show i arrived at to jump 2.6ft, they had a triple set up! i was nervous. we never did a triple or even an in and out before. but sometimes the babies surprise you. he jumped around big colorful boxes and oxers without a care in the world. just didnt get all my changes!
try not to be nervous, because sometimes the horses can handle much more than you think!

findeight
Oct. 15, 2009, 11:19 AM
Most places do not design or offer any in and outs or combinations below 3'. Most rule books spell that out pretty clearly.

Think OP needs to do something along the lines of Beginner Hunter which is usually 2' and nothing fancy. Lots of these are Ammie or kid only as well.

At a good show, the Baby Greens are all Pro ridden and they don't usually start them showing at anything below 2'6" on the theory too much of that can encourage bad jumping form...since they don't have all 4 feet off the ground at once, they can get get get pretty sloppy and lazy legged in a hurry. Learn to ignore the jump because it really is not one and that can carry over to trouble as they move up and get a bad spot to a wall or big oxer they cannot just step over like they are used to doing.

skrgirl
Oct. 15, 2009, 11:33 AM
Its 2'6" around here, which doesnt mean it wasnt supposed to be 2' at the show you went to.

2'3" compared to 2' is really nothing. Its 3". Measure 3 inches on a piece of paper. Its pretty silly ;)

TSWJB
Oct. 15, 2009, 11:46 AM
Most places do not design or offer any in and outs or combinations below 3'. Most rule books spell that out pretty clearly.

At a good show, the Baby Greens are all Pro ridden and they don't usually start them showing at anything below 2'6" on the theory too much of that can encourage bad jumping form...since they don't have all 4 feet off the ground at once, they can get get get pretty sloppy and lazy legged in a hurry.
the shows in NJ have triples (three to a three) and they do have in and outs some set after say a five stride to an in and outl.
the above reason you stated for pros not starting the horses out lower than 2.6ft is the exact reason my trainer wanted me to move my young horse up.
i wanted to stay in the 2ft longer than 2 shows, but she wouldnt let me! she said it encourages sloppy jumping styles if you do it too long especially on a big horse.

paint hunter
Oct. 15, 2009, 11:47 AM
findeight

I agree completely with your comments. Out here on the left coast, my guy showed baby greens (2'6") with the trainer. 90+% of the horses had a pro in the irons. And yes ,I couldn't figure out why my guy didn't have that clean tuck over the top. Well, when I look at the pictures, his hind legs are still on the ground on the near side. He just steps over the fence and got quite lazy at his last show. It's as if the fence is an extended stride. He is 16.3+. So yes, he did a few shows at this level to get his toes wet, but next year steps up to the pre-greens (at least that's the plan ;-) ) at 3'.

RugBug
Oct. 15, 2009, 12:09 PM
Baby Greens are usually 2'6" as others have said.

I think my baby green division is 2'3", but we do decorate, have oxers, gates, roll tops, boxes, walls....including the JumpPVC brick wall that without a rail is 2'3". Our poles are striped, which is illegal for hunters...but we're a schooling show and it's what we've got.

For our 2', green rider division, we don't put the solids in, but we do have oxers...and all the decorations.

I guess our courses can be seen as bit difficult...I did have an advanced level event rider comment that she was surprised to see some of the jumps we use (skinnies, wingless jumps, et)...but I've also heard that people appreciate the relax schooling opportunity over bigger show style jumps. I can't match A show hunter decorations, but our courses are pretty nicely done up for an $8/class show.

Madeline
Oct. 15, 2009, 12:16 PM
My local circuit has baby green at 2'6", oxers, rolltops, walls, etc included. I've never really understood why they don't have a lower class for green horses at the locals, because IMO if they are showing at 2'6" with walls, rolltops, etc., to me they aren't really that green anymore;)

Maybe if a horse cannot show at 2'6" he should be home schooling? I know that would not be popular with trainers, as it costs the owner a lot less to school at home, but really, baby greens at 2'? What's next, pre- baby-green crossrails? All at a zillion dollars a day on the road? There really is such a thing as Not Ready For Prime Time.

Resident Curmudgeon...

Madeline
Oct. 15, 2009, 12:20 PM
...

2'3" compared to 2' is really nothing. Its 3". Measure 3 inches on a piece of paper. Its pretty silly ;)

That logic won't fly on this forum. I tried it before.

paint hunter
Oct. 15, 2009, 12:52 PM
Hey RugBug

Where are your schooling shows for $8/class? I have been finding that a lot of the schooling shows in the Bay Area are charging $15-20/class (and that can be pre-entry price).

tBHj
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:01 PM
My horse is a super greenie and 2' and 2'3 are no different. 2' and 2'6 are a HUGE difference. :D

RugBug
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:06 PM
Hey RugBug

Where are your schooling shows for $8/class? I have been finding that a lot of the schooling shows in the Bay Area are charging $15-20/class (and that can be pre-entry price).

I'll PM you...I don't want this to be seen as advertising

EAY
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:10 PM
At a good show, the Baby Greens are all Pro ridden and they don't usually start them showing at anything below 2'6" on the theory too much of that can encourage bad jumping form...since they don't have all 4 feet off the ground at once, they can get get get pretty sloppy and lazy legged in a hurry. Learn to ignore the jump because it really is not one

This is the problem I had at home yesterday schooling my 17+h greenie. We were practicing adjustability over a bending line consisting of a 2' roll-top to a 26" faux stone wall. Since my goal was for her to canter it with different striding each time we did the line a number of times. Because the jumps were a little interesting, she started out jumping okay but by the end of our school she was getting really sloppy and I resolved not to jump her over anything that small again (unless perhaps it's part of a grid). I have to say I was kicking myself because I was worried about any possible long-term damage to her jumping form. Our school was successful in that she did listen to me and did what I asked but at the same time I feel like an exercise that leads to bad form is counterproductive to say the least.

As for shows, I love taking her to places with oxers and flower boxes and interesting jumps because she quickly gets bored with what we have at home and I like to feel how she jumps when she's interested. As for combinations we do enough gymnastics that she didn't have any problem with the in-and-out that we encountered recently at a show.

EAY
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:30 PM
I just wanted to add that around here at our schooling shows we usually have the opposite problem. The classes for green horses (and not just baby-greens) are at 2' or even 18" without a higher option, so I end up having to take my greenie in open classes, even though her lead changes are not 100% and she still has her green moments. We'd be more competitive against other green beans but at this point in her training I don't see any benefit to showing her at less than 2'6.

whbar158
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:35 PM
I can't imagine taking a horse to a show (to jump) that hasn't done at least some gymnastics at home. First time my baby did 2 jumps in a row was in a gymnastic. I think if you plan on going to a show to jump around a full course your horse should be able to do it at home as well as more advanced stuff. Even if your plan is to go trot a course they should be able to canter one at home. It goes to show that you should read the prize list about what each division is about. When I took my baby to his show at first I was hoping that they would have a nice x-rail division for him to do, as he had never been to a horse show and wanted the class part to be very easy, but they do not have x-rails at this particular show so instead of just doing verticals twice around the outside I went a head and prepped him for 2' inside lines and oxers. I would not assume anything unless it says in the prize list "it will only be pole verticals and no flowers" or something of that sort, otherwise I would fully expect it to be set up with boxes, flowers, and oxers.

CenterStage123
Oct. 15, 2009, 04:34 PM
OMG! a SOLID brick wall at 2'6" in the baby greens!! What were they thinking?!:rolleyes::winkgrin:

I mean really, what did you want us to say? Usually baby greens is 2'6" here, with everything except in and outs. I believe the shortest a line can be around here is 3 strides, but I could be wrong about that.

I showed my 4 year old who was just broke 6 months before in two 2' shows, and then moved up to 2'6" for the rest of the year. And yes, I was only 13. It wasn't a big deal.

I am a firm believer of schooling at least one level above what your showing at. So, in reality, unless the prizelist stated that it was supposed to be set at 2' with no oxers or fill, you should have been prepared.

EquineRacers
Oct. 15, 2009, 05:43 PM
See this is why I don't like to post anything here. People always seem to have some sarcastic remark, gez! I reviewed the prize list and it listed at 2'0! We are just stepping up from cross-rails in shows, have ONLY been to 1 or 2 shows prior and only showing cross-rails and I did not want to overwelm him and I wanted to show in what the class stated it was, period! I guess I'm wrong for taking my time with a green horse who has only been off the track for 3 months, gesh! Not to mention at home for schooling we don't have a lot of opitions for jump fences, no soilds walls, no colorful fences, etc. Thats the way it is where I board and since I am right in the middle of the city the next local barn is 45 mins away and isn't much better! Gosh, I guess you can't post anything around here without getting beat up about it!

findeight
Oct. 15, 2009, 05:48 PM
IMO you have to look at what your long term goals are with a Greenie. Taking in a few shows at 2' or 2'3 to get him settled is fine but, after that? What is he learning?

To canter over "jumps" the size you'd find in any Western Trail Horse class set at, like, a 10 foot step?

How is that teaching him to face solid jumps with fill and decoration set near 12' as most outdoor 2'6" classes should be? Even at 2'6", there is only a split second when all four feet are off the ground and that height does not encourage any effort, air time and shape over the jump. It's still low enough to forgive green errors and not get them scared if they make a mistake.

At some point, if you want to go jump? You have to go jump. Like a jump where they actually jump up off the ground and that would be 2'6" at the lowest.

Now, some are happy to stay at the little 2' level and some have to for various reasons...and that's FINE.

But a show is the recital, not the music lessons and you have to expect the better ones to ask for more...so you can learn and teach the horse.

If the horse is not ready, stay home until he can handle more, taking him to 10 shows at 2' is really not teaching him much that he will need down the road.

If the rider is not confident, staying at 2' won't help that either, save the entry fees and invest in more lessons.

Sorry, kind of a pet peeve of mine. For every legitimate one in the 2' there are 100 that can and should get out of there and move up.

RugBug
Oct. 15, 2009, 06:27 PM
See this is why I don't like to post anything here. People always seem to have some sarcastic remark, gez! I reviewed the prize list and it listed at 2'0! We are just stepping up from cross-rails in shows, have ONLY been to 1 or 2 shows prior and only showing cross-rails and I did not want to overwelm him and I wanted to show in what the class stated it was, period! I guess I'm wrong for taking my time with a green horse who has only been off the track for 3 months, gesh! Not to mention at home for schooling we don't have a lot of opitions for jump fences, no soilds walls, no colorful fences, etc. Thats the way it is where I board and since I am right in the middle of the city the next local barn is 45 mins away and isn't much better! Gosh, I guess you can't post anything around here without getting beat up about it!

I think it's fine that you wanted to do 2'. I also think the course should've been set at 2', if that's what it is listed as. However, for you to assume that that meant you wouldn't see oxers or solids is ridiculous.

If you don't have those options at home...make them. A gate takes an hour or so. A can of paint costs a few bucks. Sew a small rail sleeve in some fabric and slide it over a pole...again...just a few bucks. Buy some fake flowers and stick 'em in the dirt by the groundline. After crossrails, you can expect to see solids, flowers, oxers, etc, so I wouldn't complain about it....

MHM
Oct. 15, 2009, 06:37 PM
See this is why I don't like to post anything here. People always seem to have some sarcastic remark, gez! I reviewed the prize list and it listed at 2'0!... Gosh, I guess you can't post anything around here without getting beat up about it!

I'm sorry some people felt the need to get on your case about what you choose to do with your own horse, which is certainly your business and nobody else's.

I think if the prize list said the jumps would be set at 2', then they should have been at 2', and you have a legitimate issue to take up with the horse show.

whbar158
Oct. 15, 2009, 06:41 PM
I agree that if it says 2' it should be 2'. But I think many people were stating that at 2' there will be solids and oxers. I also think part of the point was once green horse has learned that you go over the jump many go a head and use solids and oxers. I trained a 5 year old who basically started his under saddle in may then by mid august was cantering around 2' course at a horse show. I think people are pointing out that jumping around courses at even 2'6" for a greenie is not a big deal.

I think it is fine to take it slow, but if you are that worried about the jumping in the show ring I think I would just sign up for flat classes and school the jumps until the horse is ready to do "real" courses. I understand not having a lot of options, my horse learned about solid jumps jumping some weird stuff (basically anything we could find around since we didn't have any "real" filler) when he got to jump "real" jumps they were easy!

JenEM
Oct. 15, 2009, 06:49 PM
I can understand having an issue with fences not being set at the height specified in the prizelist, but I'd be astonished to go to a show of any kind and see fences that weren't decorated, even in a crossrails division. I did a 2' section twice this past winter with my mare, and there were oxers and little boxes and flowers and fill; I would have been sorely disappointed with the show if things weren't run like this.

If you want your horse to get used to flowers and things at home first, it would be really easy to get a landscaping timber or 2x4, drill a few holes in it, and put some cheap dollar store flowers in it. Shouldn't cost more than a few dollars, and would fit under even the smallest fences.

amylmac
Oct. 15, 2009, 06:53 PM
Bottom line is if the prize list stated that the fences were 2' then they should have been 2'. The TYPE of fences unless specified, is at the show manager's etc. descretion. Maybe if the fences were at the height specified then the oxer,etc wouldn't have seemed so daunting. I feel for you OP. Before I had the horses and resources to have my own ring, jumps and trailer I was at the mercy of the local schooling shows to introduce my horse to new jumps. My advice to you is to make two verticals and get alot of poles to school at home.When you can jump a line you can jump a small course. If you get to the show and it isn't what you expected then give your horse the experience of just being at a show, jump a couple of practice fences and enter a few flat classes. If he can jump quietly in the practice ring that's half the battle. And yes it does get a bit brutal out here but everyone has an opinion. Whether you should listen is your choice. Good luck with your greenie.

Blackberry Farm
Oct. 15, 2009, 08:52 PM
Wow. I think maybe a good, solid, textbook trainer/coach would be a great idea.That person could tell you ahead of time what to be ready for and help you prepare. I'd take my time looking for a good one. I think a lot of posters were overwhelmed and didn't intend to attack you personally. WE were all put in our place, and will continue to be put in our places. That seems to be part of riding- we're a tough bunch. In addition, you should probably be more concerned with a skinny, hollow vertical that your horse might have trouble judging than a sturdy wall that bothers you. This is what a trainer and coach will explain. Lastly, when you have some guidance you can go to the dollar store and buy flowers. I bought and cut up two rafts for a water jump too. LET somebody teach you and your horse! You open yourself to advice when you post on a public forum. Get with one person and settle down. After a while 2' and 2'3" look the same. ;)

EquineRacers
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:42 PM
Now this is the kind of advice I was reaching out for!!! It was a great learning experience at that show and really made me look at the picture of what we need to start doing at home more. Eventhough, he over jumped everything, he was so good and so careful and had no refusuals and I couldn't have asked more from him. We really need to start doing more gymnastics and I know 2' should be a walk in the park. Heck, I used to jump 4'6" years ago, but then again that was on a horse who'd been doing it for a couple years! HA! My goal would be to go as far as my horse can go, without blowing his top! ;)

Thanks all! :)

enjoytheride
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:48 PM
My schooling shows start out with crossrails and 18 inch verticals. The verticals can be plain or include filler, boxes, and brush depending on the facility. I'd say if someone would rather start their horse over 2 feet vs. 2' 6" it's their business, same the other way around. These shows are $20 a stall and $10 a division, an excellent place for a part time ammy to get their feet and hooves wet.

Locally I would not be surprised to see a solid wall, oxer, or filler at 2 feet but I also expect it to be set at the listed height.

Gry2Yng
Oct. 16, 2009, 05:08 PM
To the OP, no one is beating you up, but when you start your post with "Since when..." (which is a bit incredulous and "been round the block" searching unsuccessfully for the right word). The answer is "Since they introduced a baby green division." Course should be as the prize list states, you would be correct to assume at an A rated show(yes I know this division is not rated) baby green is 2'6". At local B rated shows, everything is usually 3" lower. At a schooling show I would read the prize list. I would always expect oxers and fill, unless in a crossrails division.

So far, my nice young ones have done 2 shows at 2'6", just so they don't scare themselves while jumping and checking out the scene or so we can trot into a line if we miss the change. After that, it just encourages poor form in an athletic horse. Now, what the rider needs is a different topic.