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GGStables
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:27 PM
I don't want to be rude, but...I’m ...well...I’m confused, I think. :confused:

My 17hh mare is big and forward and all the fun stuff that goes with it but by no means a freight train – she’s sensitive and very well trained and needs nothing more than a snaffle.

An experienced horsewoman came to try her yesterday, along with her coach who is relatively new at the barn where she boards. The coach hopped on first and I swear I’ve never seen anything like it before:

His legs were very far forward with heels wayyy down, and his hands were halfway up my mare's neck in mid air, on a very short rein. His shoulders were forward too and it all looked very awkward like he was crouching over some knitting while using a very short rein, or, yeah...driving a go-cart.

As we watched the woman commented that it’s apparently the new style popular in France and all the riders at her barn are having a heck of a time, adjusting. Normally I give others the benefit of the doubt but could you guys offer some thoughts?

jaslyn1701
Oct. 14, 2009, 06:00 PM
Sounds like "trainer hunch" to me.......

Jumphigh83
Oct. 14, 2009, 06:00 PM
LOL!!! in fact ROFLMAO! I have seen this "style" in the hunt field but I would not advocate copying it! Go Cart seat!!! I can't wait to use that!!!

SprinklerBandit
Oct. 14, 2009, 06:23 PM
Too bad you don't have pictures for us to giggle at. Maybe someone can draw stick figures?

spmoonie
Oct. 14, 2009, 06:41 PM
Hehehehe. I would love a picture! :winkgrin: The new style in France? :lol:

twofatponies
Oct. 14, 2009, 06:45 PM
That I'd like to see!

I have to say I think these show "Hunters" need to be more flexible in their style. After all, "real" hunters seem to have quite a variety of techniques, including the chicken flap, the one-handed, the lean-back, the grab-the-reins and more. Watch for example minute 1:12 onward in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q5e6K-qU8Q

spina
Oct. 14, 2009, 06:55 PM
I'm picturing someone with this kind of training background:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/desertnightcreations/3930800786/

Mimi La Rue
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:15 PM
LOL what did your horse think?

TheOneandOnly
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:55 PM
My question too is what did your poor sensitive horse say to him??

The picture I got from your decription was somewhat of a saddle seat rider... Just not so upright with the back and shoulders.

France huh? I guess it will be all the rage in the hunter ring next year ;-)

KateKat
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:24 PM
holy crud thats scary that this guy is making all the people at her barn do this style.

And that hunter video is great! I love the guy in the red coat who over EVERY jump is leaning back. At least he's consistent!

GGStables
Oct. 14, 2009, 09:03 PM
I'm picturing someone with this kind of training background:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/desertnightcreations/3930800786/
Oh my! That's it! I swear - that was it - except more hunched over at the shoulders and his legs looked even more bent and forward in the stirrups. Isn’t that odd?!

How did my mare react? It really fascinated me, as my mare's head was way up like the horse in the photo link above, and she fussed for the longest time.

When the prospective buyer got on, I was so happy to see a more conventional seat and hands and my mare settled into her usual, beautiful way of going. No sooner had they done one circuit before her coach started yelling at her to raise her hands and lean forward...:eek:

I confess that I later whispered to the woman that I preferred the way my mare was moving with her aboard, and besides, that huge 17hh butt made hers look tiny. I got the larf I aimed for but her eyes told me she heard what I was saying.
:no:

kbbarn
Oct. 14, 2009, 10:41 PM
There is a person (who claims to follow classical dressage - he says he has students/clients thus the I guess he has the title of instructor) in our area who rides like this although he calls it the 'chair seat' and that this position is proper classical riding. I believe he stated this is the rider position based on Xenophon (spelling?).

I do not get it either. Looks out of balence and odd

sptraining
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:17 AM
I've seen a trainer ride in what I can imagine you're trying to describe. If what I'm picturing is correct, this way of riding results in a fussy horse and an unbalanced rider that makes an unbalanced horse. I'm really convinced that proper technique in riding has reached it's peak and cannot imagine the emergence of a 'new and better' form of riding. I not a big fan of fads in riding. It sounds more like an excuse for a person to ride poorly than trying to create his own style.

Just watch the Olympic and World Cup riders who do well. I think it would be safe to follow their style and advice. George Morris also has never ending advice on proper riding (he must get tired of sounding like a record player). I'm always cautious of new and radical ideas unless they make clear sense in a mechanical stand point. And even then, you might have to prove it to me. I'm all for keeping an open mind but I also know that there are a lot of people spouting bs...

Your poor mare. I hope he didn't do too much damage.

RugBug
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:01 PM
That I'd like to see!

I have to say I think these show "Hunters" need to be more flexible in their style. After all, "real" hunters seem to have quite a variety of techniques, including the chicken flap, the one-handed, the lean-back, the grab-the-reins and more. Watch for example minute 1:12 onward in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q5e6K-qU8Q

I'm unsure of your point? Are you making fun of the fox-hunters technique? For the most part I see riders jumping downhill and dealing with it nicely, occasionally on horses that need some encouragment. Sure...it's not Eq-winning style...but it's not frightening either.

tBHj
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:08 PM
That I'd like to see!

I have to say I think these show "Hunters" need to be more flexible in their style. After all, "real" hunters seem to have quite a variety of techniques, including the chicken flap, the one-handed, the lean-back, the grab-the-reins and more. Watch for example minute 1:12 onward in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q5e6K-qU8Q


I love the part where the riderless horse trots out. LOL

twofatponies
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:08 PM
I'm unsure of your point? Are you making fun of the fox-hunters technique? For the most part I see riders jumping downhill and dealing with it nicely, occasionally on horses that need some encouragment. Sure...it's not Eq-winning style...but it's not frightening either.

Not making fun except in the friendliest way - I didn't think it was frightening, just a cute look at the wide variety of ways people deal with jumping (successfully) even when they don't do it picture perfect eq style. Since the topic was on unusual positions.

tBHj
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:13 PM
That video also makes me want to buy a fox hunter. Looks like tons of fun!

gypsymare
Oct. 15, 2009, 02:56 PM
Much of the leaning back is actually at a bank. If you land hunched in trappy ground, prepare to meet it! The eq is more eventing style, you ride very defensively. Although that one fellow really is taking it to an extreme!

JinxyFish313
Oct. 15, 2009, 03:27 PM
There were definitely some frightening moments in that video, in addition to the hunt/XC style of jumping down hill. There was also a little gray pony that I very badly want!

When I see the saddle seat position it makes me think of a witch on a bicycle for some reason. That saddle seat pic posted should be accompanied by the music from the Wizard of Oz.

ReSomething
Oct. 16, 2009, 02:36 AM
Scuse me but the guy in the pic had pretty nice posture. Granted the "trainer hunch" takes on a whole extra dimension translated to saddleseat.

So this trainer is using the new style from France eh? Must be related to those Coneheads from the other thread.

myvanya
Oct. 16, 2009, 09:21 AM
I think Xenophon would be rolling over in his grave if he knew people were attributing the chair seat to him...just a guess. Classical dressage certainly doesn't lead one to a chair seat. It sounds like this guy had a special style...and I love the trainer hunch saddle seat style...its hilarious. I saw it when I showed morgans and nothing is funnier than a saddle seat trainer hunched over with their hands up to their chin on a spastic hyped up horse (it wouldn't be as funny if they didn't encourage the horses to misbehave, but since they do I permit myself to maugh :winkgrin:) trying to look elegant...:lol: And I promise I showed saddle seat so I am not just poking fun at something I don't understand at all; good saddleset riding is very impressive and takes a lot of talent from horse and rider.

cssutton
Oct. 16, 2009, 09:54 AM
Much of the leaning back is actually at a bank. If you land hunched in trappy ground, prepare to meet it! The eq is more eventing style, you ride very defensively. Although that one fellow really is taking it to an extreme!

I don't show, but I do read a lot of the posts because one can always learn something new, even at 81.

I frequently see show riders maintaining that there is only one correct position and of course, that is theirs.

But I would remind them that the show rider, although riding very difficult courses which take talent on the part of both horse and rider, are riding over carefully prepared and maintained ground.

Rings are dragged after every class. The footing as near perfect as humanly possible.

Even event courses, which have obstacles that would give the faint of heart a heart attack, are over carefully maintained ground.

When hunting, on the other hand, it is common to jump a fence into a plowed field that is really muddy, that has 100 horse tracks in it because the field has reversed several times, ground hog holes, ditches overgrown with weeds and therefore blind ditches to some horses, jumps within two strides of a creek bank, on and on.

One learns to ride defensively and the older one gets and the falls less appealing, the more defensively one rides.

Of course, that takes many forms depending on the basic skills of the rider.

No criticizm here. Just to make the point that there is a big difference between riding in the ring and riding behind hounds, frequently over land not ridden over before or maybe once every year or so during which time there are interesting changes in the footing.

CSSJR

Protect your privacy. Replace Google with IXQUICK at www.ixquick.com.


If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor's right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

Dispatcher
Oct. 16, 2009, 11:29 AM
Maybe the trainer has been schooling Big Lick Tennessee walkers.......

Horseymama
Oct. 16, 2009, 12:46 PM
That I'd like to see!

I have to say I think these show "Hunters" need to be more flexible in their style. After all, "real" hunters seem to have quite a variety of techniques, including the chicken flap, the one-handed, the lean-back, the grab-the-reins and more. Watch for example minute 1:12 onward in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q5e6K-qU8Q

That little grey pony and the girl in the purple helmet are awesome!

Albion
Oct. 16, 2009, 01:29 PM
I think Xenophon would be rolling over in his grave if he knew people were attributing the chair seat to him...just a guess.

Actually, if you look at pictures of Greek or Roman equestrians, they are never in 'perfect' eq. position, or even close to it (and look pretty chair seated to me! e.g., this from the Parthenon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cavalcade_west_frieze_Parthenon_BM.jpg)) - mostly because the stirrup hadn't been invented!

Jumphigh83
Oct. 16, 2009, 02:22 PM
ooofahhh..it is a wonder that the human race continued after such war time activities....had the "cup" been invented yet???;):cool:

Mac123
Oct. 16, 2009, 02:54 PM
There is a person (who claims to follow classical dressage - he says he has students/clients thus the I guess he has the title of instructor) in our area who rides like this although he calls it the 'chair seat' and that this position is proper classical riding. I believe he stated this is the rider position based on Xenophon (spelling?).

I do not get it either. Looks out of balence and odd

NO!!!!!

Xenophon revolutionized riding because he DIDN'T advocate the chair seat, which was common at the time due to the type of saddle they rode in. Xenophon says in his book (I'll have to dig around to find the exact quote) that the rider should be upright with the heel underneath the hip, so as to leave the rider in a standing position if the horse were invisible.

No real classical dressage trainer, rider, spectator, whatever, would ever support the chair seat, a bastardization of correct and effective riding.

Mac123
Oct. 16, 2009, 03:02 PM
Actually, if you look at pictures of Greek or Roman equestrians, they are never in 'perfect' eq. position, or even close to it (and look pretty chair seated to me! e.g., this from the Parthenon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cavalcade_west_frieze_Parthenon_BM.jpg)) - mostly because the stirrup hadn't been invented!

With all due respect, that is an incredibly fallacious argument. That's like saying that looking at all the showring praying mantis riders is indicative of what GM teaches.

You can't look at a representation of a rider on the Parthenon and then say of course Xenophon rode like that to. READ his book. He advocated something very different which was indeed counter-cultural for his time in the equestrian world.

It is fascinating how little most know about the history of our own sport - and even more fascinating, how many seem to be experts on subjects they know nothing about.