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LudgerFan
Oct. 14, 2009, 04:14 PM
What would judges tend to think of an equitation horse in a full bridle, with a rider holding the reins in the Fillis fashion? Would it be penalized, or recognized for what it is?

Janet
Oct. 14, 2009, 04:30 PM
You might want to start by READING THE RULES.

Hands. Hands should be over and in front of horse’s withers, knuckles thirty degrees
inside the vertical, hands slightly apart and making a straight line from horse’s mouth to
rider’s elbow. Bight of reins may fall on either side. However, all reins must be picked up at
the same time. When using two reins, the snaffle rein should be on the outside while the
curb rein is on the inside.
.

MHM
Oct. 14, 2009, 04:31 PM
You might want to start by READING THE RULES.

Janet, you're so crazy. ;)

Trixie
Oct. 14, 2009, 04:46 PM
From EQ109:


2. Tack. Regulation snaffles, pelhams and full bridles, all with cavesson nose bands, are recommended. A judge at his own discretion can penalize a horse with nonconventional types of bits or nose bands. Boots and conservative colored bandages are permitted. Type of saddle is optional. Martingales are permitted in classes over obstacles and in the jumping phase of classes requiring both jumping and flat work. Changing of bits between phases is permissible.

findeight
Oct. 14, 2009, 04:47 PM
See, learn something new all the time on here..

What the heck is Fillis style when holding 2 sets of reins?

Full bridles? That I see occasionally and there seems no problem as far as judging goes.

amylmac
Oct. 14, 2009, 04:51 PM
What is Fillis style?

LudgerFan
Oct. 14, 2009, 04:52 PM
Excuse me. I hadn't reviewed my rule book for a while and didn't recall it totally EXCLUDED any other hold...however, it does beg the question: WHY?

The fillis hold is where the snaffle rein runs through the top of the hand and out through the bottom, and the curb rein runs from the bottom of the hand and out through the top. It allows for a more direct and sensitive use of each rein.

Trixie
Oct. 14, 2009, 04:55 PM
http://www.imeha.org/images/dlbreinnocross.jpg

This was the closest thing to a picture that I could find.

LudgerFan
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:03 PM
Thank you for posting that, Trixie...I was just going to go try to find a photo or drawing to post. You beat me to it.

SaddleFitterVA
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:08 PM
When using two reins, the snaffle rein should be on the outside while the curb rein is on the inside

Does this mean that you have the bight of the snaffle reins on the outside, the bight of the curb on the inside? Or is this just referring to the curb rein goes under the snaffle rein by virtue of holding the curb rein a finger higher up than the snaffle rein?

Because the first, that would mean you'd be swapping the bights and would have a bight on both sides, and changing that would just be :eek:.

dags
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:11 PM
Here's the one I found: http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/lovaglas/tudas/publication/felszereles/20061205182802898000000969.html

Thanks Ludgar, I appreciate the post of something new. Once I saw it I realized I have seen it - possibly in European hands but not really sure, never knew the name.

LudgerFan
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:12 PM
No, it doesn't have anything to do with the bight. The inside/outside reference you quoted is talking about the commonly seen hold which is where the snaffle rein is on bottom (outside) and the curb above it (inside).

Refer to Trixie's posted drawing for clarification of the Fillis hold.

Janet
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:13 PM
Why? Because it is intended for flatwork, not jumping. How are you going to keep the right hand lined up on top of the left hand over the top of the fence,without catching the horse in th mouth?

LudgerFan
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:18 PM
Here's the one I found: http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/lovaglas/tudas/publication/felszereles/20061205182802898000000969.html

Thanks Ludgar, I appreciate the post of something new. Once I saw it I realized I have seen it - possibly in European hands but not really sure, never knew the name.

Egads! Reading that article makes even me wonder who would ever want to use the Fillis hold! I have found it very useful, even as an alternative way of holding two sets of reins on a Pessoa bit, but as a hold for greater sensitivity, not greater power. (It also helps a rider whose tendency is to choke up on the curb rein, provided the snaffle rein is on top when held between thumb and forefinger.) Of course, even the best things can be abused. Perhaps the finest instruments especially so.

LudgerFan
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:19 PM
Why? Because it is intended for flatwork, not jumping. How are you going to keep the right hand lined up on top of the left hand over the top of the fence,without catching the horse in th mouth?

The hands are still held side by side on each side of the neck. The only difference is that the snaffle rein enters the hand from the top...like using a driving rein.

dags
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:26 PM
I just think it would be a very odd way to use the wrists, but it's clear the action would be more "to the point" - the extreme of each degree essentially releases the other rein, so it's either all snaffle or all curb when put to full effect. I like the 3 ring because of the space between the snaffle and curb- actually, I guess it's the gag ring, because it let's you play with the leverage more distinctly, but there are few times when I'd want all gag and no snaffle, and even fewer when I'd want all curb.

Didn't read the article behind my link too closely, but I do agree we'd probably see even more over-flexing/behind the bit with that rein set up over fences. I already see too many choked up curb reins with snaffle rein flopping in the wind.

dags
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:27 PM
How are you going to keep the right hand lined up on top of the left hand over the top of the fence,without catching the horse in th mouth?

I don't get this . . . why don't I get this? must be missing something?

findeight
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:38 PM
Oh, I did that riding Arabs and Saddlebreds a few times but did not work that well for me on most of them. I would think that going over jumps, it would be easier to protect the horse from any accidental and unintended overuse of the curb if you used the more conventional hold with the curb rein on top. But I never tried it, never wanted to.

And here I thought that Fillis was just a style of stirrup iron. Who knew?

LudgerFan
Oct. 14, 2009, 05:38 PM
I find it a very small action in the wrists, more in the fingers. Kind of like milking a goat (no laughing here, I don't know how else to describe it) with the thumb and forefinger, and simply closing the pinky tighter to apply more curb rein. I have not found it helpful at all in the case of a horse who seriously wanted to bear down/get behind the bit. But then, that's a case for riding strongly forward and engaging the haunches.

Interesting to experiment with in a Pelham as well...

But it's admittedly not a hold I would want to use with a crest release. Definitely with a following hand. And also, it might not present as attractive a straight line from bit to elbow. Perhaps I've just answered my own question of why...

It's been fun to talk about, though, hasn't it? :)

chunky munky
Oct. 14, 2009, 06:03 PM
Interestigly enough, until fairly recently I can assure you that the rule book stated that style of rein holding was the choice of the rider. So this is not such an ignorant question. Until that change one could hold the curb on the outside without penalty in the EQ( as recently as 10 years ago). Years ago it was very clear in the book that the snaffle had to be on the outside, complete with drawings. At some point they took it out with many being unaware of that deletion including some officials. But it is back in there now.
As far as the full bridle, there is probably nothing that could be considered more traditional than that! Though not frequently seen anymore in the hunters ( sometimes in the Side Saddle which IMO looks pretty cool!) a judge would be hard pressed to call it non traditional tack. I admit that some of the younger officials may scratch their heads about it perhaps never seeing one on a hunter.

War Admiral
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:13 PM
Even though I started out riding saddle seat and most definitely know my way around a full bridle (and have seen this rein hold - just didn't know what it was called, so thanks for that!), I have to say it looks to me to have vast potential for misuse.

Of course, if you think about current "performance dressage" standards and training methods - e.g., rollkur, the fact that it is regaining currency on Planet Dressage makes a certain amount of sense. :cool: I'm not ADVOCATING it, but you can see why they'd be doing it.

If full bridles ever make a comeback in H/J at all, I'd hazard it would be in the eq. ring, like Pelhams. The days of Steinkraus et al. breezing around a big jumper course in a double are probably gone - though I personally would still pick a double over all these leverage bits that are in fashion now! :)

snaffle635
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:51 PM
Fillis - This is the second new thing I learned today!

(The first was that you can instigate a sneeze by looking at a light. Proceed with your regularly scheduled broadcast.)

MHM
Oct. 14, 2009, 07:57 PM
(The first was that you can instigate a sneeze by looking at a light. Proceed with your regularly scheduled broadcast.)

I just stared at my light. Nothing happened. Is there more to the story?

Admit it- how many other people tried it just now?

Texan By The Grace Of God
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:17 PM
I just tried it lol

Against all Odds
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:20 PM
I just stared at my light. Nothing happened. Is there more to the story?

Admit it- how many other people tried it just now?

haha I tried it too, it was just so tempting! Didn't work for me either, although maby there's an amount of time or something.

LudgerFan
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:49 PM
I just tried it, too. Didn't sneeze, but my nose DOES feel itchy...

I also heard (and oddly enough it usually works for me) that saying "watermelon" will ward off an oncoming sneeze. :lol:

chunky munky
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:50 PM
The irons style that most use in the hunter ring are also called Fillis irons. They are the round shank sided that meet the foot piece. Prior to that the shank increased in size prior to joining the foot piece. I am sure that they are still used somewhere, just not in the show ring.

chunky munky
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:54 PM
Secondly, the sneeze issue. Head shaking..research showing caused in some by light. Research has been done with equines with shaded contact lenses with more than a little success.

Janet
Oct. 14, 2009, 08:58 PM
The irons style that most use in the hunter ring are also called Fillis irons. They are the round shank sided that meet the foot piece. Prior to that the shank increased in size prior to joining the foot piece. I am sure that they are still used somewhere, just not in the show ring.
Called Prussian. _I_ still use Prussian stirrups in the show ring (on my jumping saddle). I use Fillis stirrups on my dressage saddle.

James Fillis was one of the "old masters" of dressage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Fillis

chunky munky
Oct. 14, 2009, 09:00 PM
Well there ya go!

Mac123
Oct. 14, 2009, 09:08 PM
I just tried it, too. Didn't sneeze, but my nose DOES feel itchy...

I also heard (and oddly enough it usually works for me) that saying "watermelon" will ward off an oncoming sneeze. :lol:

No, it's "elephant." Works every time! :winkgrin:

dags
Oct. 14, 2009, 09:29 PM
I just stared at my light. Nothing happened. Is there more to the story?

Admit it- how many other people tried it just now?

LOL, I believe it's if you need to sneeze, but can't get it out, looking directly at a light helps. And most of the times it does, for me at least!

snaffle635
Oct. 14, 2009, 10:19 PM
Didn't mean to hijack. This morning I was talking with someone on the phone and I said 'hold on, I have to sneeze'. But the sneeze was, well, stuck. My colleague told me to look at a light. I stared at the fluorescent light and, sho' nuf, sneezed right away.

So, conclusion is that looking at a light coaxes out a shy sneeze.

snaffle635
Oct. 14, 2009, 10:20 PM
And apologies to LudgerFan, as I think s/he was trying to have a very serious discussion (which I greatly admire).

Wanderluster
Oct. 15, 2009, 12:50 AM
It seems that you are essentially creating a bridge with the reins in both the left and right hand . Bridging the reins in this way while jumping would make length adjustment awkward imho. It is always interesting to see different techniques, holding the reins "plow" fashion also encourages a straight line from wrist to elbow, as an exercise it's great.

Vandy
Oct. 15, 2009, 01:14 AM
When my dad goes outside into the sunlight, he sneezes twice, every time, always has. Apparently it's not strongly hereditary as I just stared at my chadelier and nothing.

I used a full bridle about 20 years ago in the big eq and rarely saw anyone else using one. With a knife-edge bradoon :uhoh: Freight train horse, that bridle was wonderful for him...but I can't imagine jumping with that fillis hold using an automatic release - that might get a little sketchy depending on the horse's jumping style...I don't think my feel has ever been good enough to want to try it.