Can't afford indoor, what about just a roof over my outdoor?

[Flying Hearts]

I'm in Ohio and have a small lesson program. There is usually about 3 months in the winter where we basically can't ride except here and there if we're lucky, and I always lose a few clients (as well as training time with my horses and money). I have a really great outdoor and no indoor. Building any type of indoor is basically not an option for me, but I was wondering if it would be possible to just put a roof over even part of my existing outdoor? Or, building another small arena with good footing and a roof? I need to figure something out, but like I said, an indoor is simply not an option right now. Any thoughts on this?

[Jsalem]

I don't know how you can afford NOT to have some sort of indoor. It's the only way to insure that your program can stay on track during the bad months. I would price out your options- A small separate covered or indoor would be ideal. Contact steel building builders, not just indoor ring builders. It may be cheaper.

Would a loan be an option? Think of the income you could generate without missed days. You might also be able to hire a part time assistant to do lessons on days that you don't teach (I have a small lesson program. The biggest day is Saturday when I'm usually away showing. My farm is generating income while I'm not even there).

It's a scary thought, but investing in your business is well, just good business.

[jn4jenny]

I hate to sound pessimistic, but as someone who lived in Michigan for the last 5 years and is now living in Ohio, I wouldn't consider a roofed outdoor arena sufficient for my winter riding. Unless you had some kind of brilliant tarping system, snow/ice/rain would still get into your footing and make the arena less rideable. And even worse, the wind would still blow.

Are you SURE an indoor is not an option? If you raise your board to say $425 monthly and get the Amish to build you a simple pole structure, can you do it? Someone on one of the Michigan boards claimed that the Amish did her indoor for $15,000.

[Trees4U]

I am interested in this info too.

[trubandloki]

I do not understand how building a roof over your outdoor will be that much cheaper than building an indoor? The only portion of the building you are not putting up is the skin on the sides this way.

[2ndyrgal]

the roof is the expensive part!! If you can find a way to pay for the roof, the rest of it won't be that much more. Covered arenas work well in the south. The DEEP south, and out west. Ohio, Kentucky?? Not so much. With this economy, no way would I borrow to build. If you have a successful, profitable program with what you have, go with it. While I love my two year old indoor, it did not lead to additional clients. As an aside, a very very well known eventing trainer came up for a session with my horse and I and said that she'd raised her board minimally for the first time in quite some time and lost several clients. She is in Lexington, does not have an indoor and since her ring footing is ideal, she just sucks it up and does without.

[jn4jenny]

Spinning off the above post, another option would be to find someone local with an indoor who's willing to rent it to you, then have your clients trailer over there. My current BO does this for a local trainer one day a week. It's good money for him, there are only 4 boarders at our barn who ride (and mostly not during the hours when this trainer comes on Saturdays) so the trainer doesn't get in our way, and the trainer saves the cost of building an indoor.

[SLW]

Around here some places have a covered arena with solid walls on the west and north end of the arena. It works out pretty darn nice and you don't get the same degree of the nasty dust effect from a completely closed indoor. I've been over at this place with my hunting horses for team sorting on Weds nights. There are arena photos at the bottom of the home page. http://www.lonewolfarena.com/index.html

[Guilherme]

We explored indoor vs. covered outdoor almost 10 years ago and went with the covered outdoor.

In our area we do not get long periods of deep cold and our winds are generally mild. We probably lose 30 days per year to weather (heat and cold). To get some idea of our weather go to weather.com and compare your averages to those of Knoxville, TN.

A cover is not cheaper to build. It requires a heavier structure as the cover functions as a "wing" in high winds. There will be engineering standards specific to your area with your local building permit authorities. Pay attention to them.

A cover is much cheaper to use as it requires no heating, A/C, or artificial air movment systems. Indoors can become "ovens" in the summer and "freezers" in the winter. If you insulate and climate control it will grossly increase the cost of the structure and its costs of operation.

Southern OH is probably the practical northern limit for effective use of covers vice indoor structures. A local "micro climate" might dictate one or the other a bit further north or south.

Good luck in your research.

G.

[trubandloki]

A cover is much cheaper to use as it requires no heating, A/C, or artificial air movment systems. Indoors can become "ovens" in the summer and "freezers" in the winter. If you insulate and climate control it will grossly increase the cost of the structure and its costs of operation.



:eek:

Wait one minute here. All the barns I know must have missed the memo that their indoor is supposed to be climate controlled.

Not stable in my area (cold snowy NY) has a climate controlled indoor.

[danceronice]

I rode in Michigan and there is no way I'd find a roof-only outdoor remotely warm enough. I don't know where in Ohio you are, but unless it's pretty far south in a fairly sheltered geographic area a roof-only is something I'd find more appropriate for Florida. A basic pole barn shouldn't cost that much more than a to-code arena roof that isnt' going to blow over.

ETA: and what turbandloki said. I have never ridden in a climate-controlled indoor! If anything we were always told that having a/c and heat on could mess with the horses when they went back out in the (very much not climate controlled) turnout and the rest of the barn!

[Flying Hearts]

I live in Cincinnati, so the very most southern part of Ohio, by Kentucky.

Trust me, an indoor is NOT an option. And I'm not surprised to hear it isn't really cheaper to build some sort of a roof rather than a real indoor. I guess I will just have to do without.

I only have 14 acres (only about 5 acres of pasture though), 10 stalls and they are filled up - 4 are boarders who do cheap partial care so raising board wouldn't provide me with much of anything. I only have on average 10 students and two lesson horses, so I'm very small time.

Maybe I should start a new thread about this, but what sort of footing works best in winter? Obviously if it's icy, etc, we can't ride no matter what. But my footing is fairly shallow - would deeper sand not freeze as soon? What we usually do is if it's frozen with snow, we ride in the arena and the snow provides cushion since the sand is like cement. When it's frozen with no snow we ride in the field and the grass provides cushion. We generally just w/t.

I have been talking to local barns about using their indoor, not sure if it's going to work out but I'm going to try.

[FalseImpression]

No climate controlled arenas in this part either! Can you imagine the cost??
At our first barn, the arena was just a "shell", built by mennonites, very strong, but open rafters and studs apparent on the walls.

At the second barn, the arena was insulated, roof and walls, and it made a BIG difference in the overall comfort. The first one could not be used some days as it was too cold inside. I don't recall the other one not being used because it was too cold!

[Gloria]

What you can do is build a cover-only arena first. It won't help you much in cold weather but at least you can continue to have lessons in rainy days. Remember what hurt you is not winters only. You are also hurt when it's too hot or when it rains. A covered arena still provides more shelter than open area. And if you do have a covered arena, your boarders including the self-care boarders should be expected to pay more for the use of it. In a few years, you can add skin to create indoor.

[Bacchus]

When I was pricing arenas a few years ago in Oregon, covered was cheaper than half-walls, which was cheaper than indoor.

I wanted to go with the half-walls and use that great material that you can roll down (like curtains) when it's windy or wet, and roll up when you don't need it. I didn't get to it before I moved, though.

I'm in Kentucky, and I'd kill for just a covered arena as opposed to open. At least you can ride in the rain and the sun won't beat down on you. Doesn't save every day, but saves a lot of them.

[QM2]

I am in PA and I only have an outdoor. We only missed about 7-8 days of riding last year and same for the years in the past. We only have a problem when there is a lot of snow.

I have sand/screenings that are very dark and when the sun is out ( my ring is in full sun) the footing defrosts and is good to ride on from 10:30am-4:30pm.

If I know that the ring is going to be wet and the temps not over 34 degrees I put calcium/chloride down with a seed spreader and drag the ring really well. It's work but it can be done.

As long as you and your horse are dressed for cold weather you will be fine.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[Brookes]

Check out this options www.rockymtnstructures.com They have a product called We-Cover that looks pretty cool. Could be an option for you. They are in Utah so they know how to build things that will hold up to the elements.

[dmalbone]

I don't think it wouldn't be adequate, sorry. :( I live in Indiana and I know there's not a snowball's chance in hell that a covered arena would be adequate in the winter. I also stopped riding with a trainer that I was very sad about when she had to move barns and they had no indoor. It just wasn't feasible. Like previously stated, the roof is the most expensive part. Once a covered arena was up it would take minimal cost to attach the horizontal boards to make the walls and slap some steel on them. So I really don't think that 1) you'll save money (and will most likely spend more in the long run and 2) that it would be adequate. All you'd really be gaining is a little extra shelter in light snow (and even then it would still be windy which is one of the worst parts about winter) and shelter in rain. With snow and wind in the winter, you will get drifts in the covered area and it will still be unusable.

[RedMare01]

The KY State Fairgrounds in Louisville has a covered arena on the grounds, and it looks quite nice. However, I don't think they have shows in the winter, so I've never paid attention to how it works in the cold...but it has quite a large overhang and slope to it, so I wouldn't think it would be too bad as far as rain or snow getting in. Just cold.

Caitlin

[Carrera]

No climate controlled arenas in this part either! Can you imagine the cost??
At our first barn, the arena was just a "shell", built by mennonites, very strong, but open rafters and studs apparent on the walls.

At the second barn, the arena was insulated, roof and walls, and it made a BIG difference in the overall comfort. The first one could not be used some days as it was too cold inside. I don't recall the other one not being used because it was too cold!

I've ridden in many heated indoors in Ontario! They are great and really keep the awful winter chill out of the air.

[AnotherRound]

You could look into these tension covered fabric arenas. They SAY they are economical; I don't know the prices, but I would look into them:

http://www.clearspan.com/fabric/structures/ext;Solutions/Equestrian_and_Riding_Arenas.html

This is one company; you might be able to find others and different types which were cheaper in some way.

[AnotherRound]

I think Cover All was the company I was first thinking of. I've seen some for horses, and they have been very successful.

http://www.coverall.net/EN/Customers/Equine/Riding_Arenas/?gclid=CMrzwr2yvZ0CFdZM5QodsHlYjA

[Guilherme]

Have you done any pricing? When I did my cover the low bid was about $50,000 and the high bid over $120,000. Both were working from the exact, same proposal. In evaluating bid I generally drop the lowest and highest and work from the middle. In some cases I've dropped several low bidders 'cause I knew they did inferior quality work.

Put together a proposal and send it to 15 or 20 contractors and see what you get back.

As to climate control, note that I said it "can" become a problem, not that it invariably will be a problem. In the South the enemy is heat and if some provision for moving air is not made you'll easily the the "hot box" effect. In the North where cold is an issue it's not so important (unless you've got water lines or something like that involved). Horses do just fine in temps down to 15 degrees F. or so (as long as they are out of the wind).

G.

[MsM]

Unfortunately it seems that getting a roof with the clear span of an arena width is a large part of the high cost of indoor or covered arenas. The indoor at the barn where I board is open from the roofline down about three feet before the translucent panels and then the sidewalls. Even with that bit of opening we get a little snow inside, but not enough to bother anything.
The only thing I can think of to reduce costs is not to have clear span. I have seen some people use pole barn type buildings (one was a tobacco shed) with enough headroom. They just rode around the support posts, much as you would jump standards. Might make sense if you have a building to convert or if you build one as an arena for now and later convert it to stalls, storage, etc when you can afford a fancier setup.

[WorthTheWait95]

I think Cover All was the company I was first thinking of. I've seen some for horses, and they have been very successful.

http://www.coverall.net/EN/Customers/Equine/Riding_Arenas/?gclid=CMrzwr2yvZ0CFdZM5QodsHlYjA

We had a huge coverall at the barn I was at before my current place. LOVED it. Super bright and airy, stayed cool in the summer and warm in the winter. I know it cost the BO's in the 6 figures though. Worth every penny considering the amount of board it has brought in (people flock there in the winter) but they are a very large barn and could easily offset some of the cost by just raising board $50.

[SpottedTApps]

When I lived in Michigan and was boarding/training, I found that an indoor was a neccesity. So started the search for pricing/ideas. Getting the clear span width of trusses was the most expensive part of the whole building, whether fully enclosed arena or just a roof. Wood was cheaper than steel at 60' wide or less and steel was cheaper than wood at anything larger.

Now, we held shows as well, so I needed a large space to not only compete, but to hold those waiting to compete.

We ended up doing wood, 60' wide clearspan for the riding arena and a 20' overhang for standing horses. Length we went 220', 180' for riding, 40' for standing horses/announcer etc. Total cost, with doing most of the labor ourselves, was about $60K. Had we hired it done, it would have been closer to $100K.

I would never go narrower than 60' wide, but if you are just using it for lessons/exercising horses, you could probably get away with 100' long or possibly even 80'.

Some of the steel building companies will have buildings for cheap that someone else ordered and never purchased. It is worth looking into.

For the record, I agree that in Ohio, you will never get away with just a roof. You will need fully enclosed to keep the snow/ice out of your arena. But that isn't the expensive part. The roof is. Siding is just that, metal siding. Throw an OSB or plywood board around the bottom 4' and you are covered.

[Druid Acres]

A company called Farm Tek sends me catalogs all the time. How about something like this? (http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&productId=280389) $22K for a 60' covered arena sounds pretty reasonable to me. And the ad says it's an ideal theater for drama club groups, too! :)

[Plumcreek]

A company called Farm Tek sends me catalogs all the time. How about something like this? (http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&productId=280389) $22K for a 60' covered arena sounds pretty reasonable to me. And the ad says it's an ideal theater for drama club groups, too! :)



The above price does not include labor. But, an indoor round pen is an affordable option. You can get a lot done in one for lessons; equitation, gymnastics, trail course in center, etc. Look into that option but 60' is absolute minimum for average size horses, 72' much better, 80' super, and it can be a square bldg, then you have the corners for storage.

[SLR]

As others have said, you won't gain much by just a roof as the sides are much cheaper and you already have the sides up in order to support the roof.. Try getting a quote from Worsch Lumber in Versailles, OH I got quotes from them when I built my indoor and they were VERY cheap.I didn't have them do it because my barn builder gave me a good price if he could do them both at once.. Worsch is probably at QH Congress this month.

[SLR]

oops its Worch lumber.

[sidepasser]

I live in Georgia and this week I would kill for an indoor or covered arena. I would think up North, an indoor would be a necessity of life to ride. I can't imagine trying to ride in windy, snowy, rainy and cold conditions..or pick any of the two say in January.

I would do as others advised and get several quotes, figure out the minimum area you need, then add 20 percent for overhangs, etc. and just see. With the economy like it is, and so many contractors out of work, you may be pleasantly surprised at the cost.

Example: during the "good times" prior to 2008 I got an estimate on laying tile for a 12 ft. x 12 ft. bathroom..uhm median price was close to 1100.00 with me buying the tile and other supplies. I got an estimate this week for the same work (I have now gotten the tile and supplies) and the price from the SAME contractor was 500. Guess who is getting tile laid in two weeks? ME!!

Reason it was so much cheaper? He was only going to do the work himself with a helper rather than hiring a "crew" and checking in..can't afford a "crew" right now and so he can do the job in 2 days himself and will still make the same amount of profit.

So do some checking..you may be pleasantly surprised at how eager and willing contractors are right now to work with you. Financing may be a bear, but there is the Farm Credit agency that may be willing to work with you if you can show the ability to repay the loan from a business standpoint.

As I type it is raining frogs here..we are WAY past the cats and dogs now..

[Equibrit]

Check these out; http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/cat1;ft1_tension_fabric_buildings-ft1_horse_arenas_1;ft1_clearspan_tension_fabric_st ructures_8.html

[egontoast]

A company called Farm Tek sends me catalogs all the time. How about something like this? (http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&productId=280389) $22K for a 60' covered arena sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Not really. $22K plus labour $$ for an area smaller than a 20 m circle.

[Guilherme]

Watch the "plastic buildings" very carefully. You'll find that, money wise, they are generally 10%-50% higher than steel construction. My experience is limited, but in the one I rode in outside of Atlanta a few years back it was not a good choice. It was early May and not particularly hot/humid yet and the building was quite "close" even early in the a.m. They had a couple of exhaust fans but I don't remember them running.

Perhaps in So. OH that would be less of a concern, yet I've also experienced hot days and high humidity there, too. :)

Again, a cover might be enough but maybe not. A lot depends on how "tough" the instructor and students are. You might also get by with a cover and blocking the northwest winds.

In any type of clear span structure, as previously noted, the money is in the width. We decided on 20m x 60m as it's a very standard size. In my covered one end was "finished" and the other was "unfinished," meaning I could add additional bays to it later if I wanted to. This is one option; go for a 20m width buy maybe only 20m or 40m in length. Plan on adding additional bays as finances permit.

The biggest thing is shopping around. As I noted, above, there was a huge difference between the high and low bid off the exact same specifications. Get the bids in writting and keep them in a file. After you have enough (at least 10) then make your call.

Good luck in the project.

G.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Around here some places have a covered arena with solid walls on the west and north end of the arena. It works out pretty darn nice and you don't get the same degree of the nasty dust effect from a completely closed indoor. I've been over at this place with my hunting horses for team sorting on Weds nights. There are arena photos at the bottom of the home page. http://www.lonewolfarena.com/index.html

Well, that is one huge clear-span building! But it's very interesting how they have "everything" under one roof. What was it like to ride in?

[cutemudhorse]

Maybe you can build in slow stages? Like, a stout frame and roof but perhaps your builder could offer hints to help keep it sound enough to use as a covered arean for a few years til you finish the rest of the walls. Maybe you'd have to have walls around the corners at first or something???

I'm just trying to find an idea part way between the good advice you got and your pocketbook. Maybe it would better if smaller. . . we've all seen covered pavillions up north. ?? They don't have sides.

[Lambie Boat]

sometimes people give away entire covered arenas "for free" when they bought horse property and just want to build condos. However, it does cost quite a bit to dismantle and move them. and put them back together.

I have a roof over my arena in Oregon. I like the openness, the view, the air, being able to watch over the farm. It's great for about 8 months a year, but the months with rain (& Snow) blowing in sideways makes for slippery, icky footing. DH and I did the leveling, drainage,sub-base, base, arena rails (no walls yet), gates, and footing ourselves, so just out materials, time and labor. Arena contractors put in the big vertical poles, roof and rafters ($$$$!!!) I've also lived in Ohio and think an entire indoor arena would be mandatory but keep checking craigslist and your ag newspapers at the feed store for arenas "for free". (it's called scraping around here)