Why Did I ask this?

[chai]

I have done a little driving, and I took lessons for a year with my pony and a trainer who did a great job teaching her to drive. She handled her very well and my pony really took to it.
I also have a draft horse that I have considered driving with, but he is more spooky and is a fidget just tacking up to ride.

So, that said, I was at a local fair where a traveling 8 horse team was performing. It was not the Budweiser Clydesdales. They were unharnessing the horses afterward and I was impressed with the way each horse stood rock still, even after they had been unhooked, waiting patiently for the handler whose job it was to lead them back to their standing stall and finish removing the harness.

One of the handlers who was doing the unhitching came over and smiled, so I told him how beautifully mannered the horses were and I asked him how they were able to get 8 horses to stand so still, loose, surrounded by all the noise and distraction of the fair.

He said, "oh, well, we had one who acted up and let me tell you, after the show I couldn't wait to get him out behind the barn."

Ugh. I hope he was just a jerk, and that's not how they really treat those magnificent horses.

[Thomas_1]

So what did you say then???

[chai]

I said, "Did you really? Why did you tell me that?" and he replied, "They're big and they need to know who's boss." I replied, "I have a draft horse and they are very smart. I'm sorry to hear that." He was a crusty old man, so maybe he was just trying to be macho in front of a group of people, and it isn't true. The horses were immaculate and one of the handlers actually patted and hugged one of the horses while he was removing the decorations. I'll just try to hang onto that memory, but my brief conversation with the other guy left such an awful impression.

I can understand handling a situation immediately, but his leering insinuation about taking a horse behind the barn for a thrashing long after the behavior just made me feel sick.

[Thomas_1]

So you let your imagination run riot and came up with a very dramatic story in your mind which upset you so much you had to come here to tell us.

Interesting!

[Ajierene]

Some people just have different ways of viewing things and dealing with people and animals.

I was talking to a retired guy that is looking to lease out his barn and field - a friend and myself are looking to rent it. He told us a story of being in the hospital for surgery and a pit bull got to his high dollar lab. He said he came back from the hospital and the pit was in the kennel. He was not sure how it got in here....got it out. Next day, same thing - and he removed the pit. Next day same thing - he put a bullet in the pit's head and buried it in the woods.

My friend's jaw dropped and I was not to pleased myself - but he is from a different era where you are expected to watch your dog and if you don't, you can expect to have things like this happen.

He was ready to do similar to the resulting pit/lab puppies, but his daughter convinced him to let her see if she could sell them on eBay...$100 a piece. He breed and sold his lab's full blood puppies, but was astonished that people would pay for a 'mutt'.

Times like that, I just nod and smile - some people have grown up a certain way and lived in that culture for so long, some things that you may never think is right or moral are common to others.

[chai]

Thomas, why so snarky? I didn't make up the story. That is what he said, and who could understand the upset it caused better than other people who drive? The horses are so beautiful and stand so stock still that it took a lot of the shine off the performance to have one of the handlers talk like that about the horses. No imagination running wild at all.

[Thomas_1]

So he has nice horses in good condition and well trained. You were impressed with the horses and their handler was friendly.

Your own horse isn't that good nor that well behaved.

You asked how they were so well trained and he said that he had one that once misbehaved and he couldn't wait to get it out behind the barn.

Full stop. No more conversation.....

But in your mind he'd taken the horse and beaten it to within an inch of it's life.

He might have actually meant he was glad to get it out of the way so it wasn't so stressed. He might have meant he took it round the back to train it to stand out of public view.

Perhaps had you taken the time and trouble to find out more then you might have learnt what he actually did to have well trained driving horses and you might have learnt what you need to do to get your own one to stand still and trust you and when all around is chaos.

You ask why I'm being so "snarky". I'd ask you to reflect on why you came to that conclusion in the first place. You might also want to reflect on why, having decided it was because of cruelty and abuse that you decided to rush to the driving forums and imply that well behaved driving horses are so because they have the crap beaten out of them.

You might then want to ponder why folks who train and drive multiples and have well behaved horses might just wonder what planet you're on!

[Nojacketrequired]

I see Thomas' side, in that perhaps YOUR idea of "behind the barn" and this guy's idea are different?

I know that my trainer might say he took a horse out behind the barn, and he might mean that he took it out of public site so it didn't leave a bad impression. Or so that it didn't affect the other horses. Or that he put a shank on it and made it mind it's manners...something the public might not understand, if they were to see.

I really hope the guy didn't mean it in a bad way...believe me I've seen it happen with a BIG name jumper rider, and it wasn't pretty. (And the steward WAS called).

With the driving horses though, I don't think you can "muscle" them..it is about respect, trust and the horse understanding the expectations.

Another point of view is that these are HUGE horses and the driver has little TRUE control, physically. If one gets upset, he might egg the others on and people could get hurt. No one wants to see a horse beaten EVER. But discipline is different and important.

NJR

[chai]

Ajierene, I am very sorry about that poor dog. People like that, and the horrible man at the fair who was so boastful about showing the horses 'who's the boss' and bragging about taking them out behind the barn for punishment are all about control, not the love of the animal. My heart breaks for any animal that falls into their hands.

[twofatponies]

I fail to see how the (implied) beating of a horse after a show is going to teach it to stand still while being tacked up. The two moments are so separated in time. A fearful horse does not stand quietly being petting and hugged by visitors or while being untacked in a busy atmosphere.

The guy may also have been taunting you? My dad and some of his relatives and old-man friends were like that - they'd say things to girls and young women especially, just to shock them. You could never tell when they were making up stories, because they had great poker faces.

[Trakehner]

S...He told us a story of being in the hospital for surgery and a pit bull got to his high dollar lab. He said he came back from the hospital and the pit was in the kennel. He was not sure how it got in here....got it out. Next day, same thing - and he removed the pit. Next day same thing - he put a bullet in the pit's head and buried it in the woods. My friend's jaw dropped and I was not to pleased myself - but he is from a different era where you are expected to watch your dog and if you don't, you can expect to have things like this happen.

Let's see, a pitbull running loose, twice caught in his kennel...would you be as happy if this dog running loose was happily chasing and attacking your horses? kids? your male dog he didn't wish to breed with?

Culling puppies isn't a bad thing. Too many wonderful dogs and puppies already born are put to sleep or abandoned. He was being responsible.

Sad to hear he listened to his idiot bleeding heart daughter.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Ajierene, I am very sorry about that poor dog. People like that, and the horrible man at the fair who was so boastful about showing the horses 'who's the boss' and bragging about taking them out behind the barn for punishment are all about control, not the love of the animal. My heart breaks for any animal that falls into their hands.

Many, many, MANY horses are spoiled by too timid a hand. Horses are big, strong animals fully capable of seriously hurting someone if they don't behave. "Behind the barn" training goes on in every barn every day. It's an expression which can mean many things. Why assume the worst? You yourself admit the horses were very well mannered - did they act afraid of their handlers?

[katarine]

You asked b/c I guess you hoped for a Black Beauty type of answer, lots of praise and carrots, sister.

What you got instead was a joking/semi serious response. Might've been full on serious, but you don't know. You have to cobble the hugging and kindness with some firestorm of viciousness, something entirely constructed from judgements, conclusions and attributions. Not ONE fact.

Maybe he saw that starry, impossible fantasy cloud in your eyes and imagined a frothing PETA member hiding inside your head, so he told himself a story about...you. Better to spook you off than run the risk of a head on collision with someone averse to exerting leadership-level influence over a horse.

Your failure to carry the conversation forward, ask him to expand on his answer then hush, listen respectfully, maybe horrified, but genuinely listening... might have gotten you a factual answer.

[SmokenMirrors]

Chai and Thomas...let me tell you something, Chai is not far off base.

[hitchinmygetalong]

But she didn't see any abuse, she assumed there was abuse because of a statement about some mysterious "behind the barn" training. Hence her revulsion at the statement.

Trust me, if I saw someone abusing a horse at a show, I'd be reporting it pronto. I've done it in the past and will do so in the future.

[SomethingDazzling]

Many, many, MANY horses are spoiled by too timid a hand. Horses are big, strong animals fully capable of seriously hurting someone if they don't behave. "Behind the barn" training goes on in every barn every day. It's an expression which can mean many things. Why assume the worst? You yourself admit the horses were very well mannered - did they act afraid of their handlers?

Sometimes a "come to 'you-know-who'" moment is necessary. I do not condone abusing any animal, but some attitudes need to be addressed. I have had many an appropriate discussion with my horses about their behavior - either being scared or a jerk, and they didn't always like me afterwards, but the lesson was learned. They run TO me in the field when I call them in for work - they are not afraid of me. There's a time & place for everything, and sometimes tough-love training is necessary.
Sorry if this upsets some of you.

[SmokenMirrors]

hitchinmygetalong...no, not EVERY barn does the behind the barn "training" as you call it. Why not call it what it is...abuse. Sorry but there is no reason to abuse or beat a draft horse, proper training started young, firm handling, go a long way, they learn quick and I have two drafts of my own. If stupid people get a draft because they believe the theory of "Gentle Giant" then that is on them. I have seen people who are already intimidated by their sheer size and mass get one anyway, thinking they can beat the fear...they should of stuck with mini's or ponies. They are horses, just bigger. The Gentle Giant label on drafts make me grind my teeth, as they are gentle due to what that owner does with them, I should know, I have one out in the field who had over 100+ kids set on her back two weeks ago for a meet and greet and photo op at the Smithsonian Conservation Park. But I do not call her, or my other Percheron mare, a Gentle Giant.

[hitchinmygetalong]

hitchinmygetalong...no, not EVERY barn does the behind the barn "training" as you call it.

Disagree. What some people would define as abuse is simply a firm hand.

Why not call it what it is...abuse.

Disagree. See above.

Sorry but there is no reason to abuse or beat a draft horse, proper training started young, firm handling, go a long way, they learn quick and I have two drafts of my own.

Who said anything about abusing or beating? The OP repeated a COMMENT made by someone who is not here to define or defend his use of the term "behind the barn training."

And NO ONE will argue that beating a horse into submission is preferable to "firm handling" (your term, by the way). But bear in mind that a passerby might see your version of firm handling (like a quick jerk on a lead rope) and consider it "abuse" - it is all in the interpretation.

If stupid people get a draft because they believe the theory of "Gentle Giant" then that is on them. I have seen people who are already intimidated by their sheer size and mass get one anyway, thinking they can beat the fear...they should of stuck with mini's or ponies. They are horses, just bigger. The Gentle Giant label on drafts make me grind my teeth, as they are gentle due to what that owner does with them, I should know, I have one out in the field who had over 100+ kids set on her back two weeks ago for a meet and greet and photo op at the Smithsonian Conservation Park. But I do not call her, or my other Percheron mare, a Gentle Giant.

Not sure what point you are making here.

[Ajierene]

Let's see, a pitbull running loose, twice caught in his kennel...would you be as happy if this dog running loose was happily chasing and attacking your horses? kids? your male dog he didn't wish to breed with?

Culling puppies isn't a bad thing. Too many wonderful dogs and puppies already born are put to sleep or abandoned. He was being responsible.

Sad to hear he listened to his idiot bleeding heart daughter.

I'm not sure if you statement was meant to apparently agree or disagree with me...but I do not entirely disagree with you.

There was a time when people expected to watch their pets and kids and not let them get into dangerous situations (don't let the pit bull loose....don't let the kid into the pit bull's pen). I would have preferred if the guy tried to find the owners of the pit before shooting it and felt bad for the puppies (not their fault that they are born 'mutts'), but you are right, his thoughts and actions are not necessarily 'bad', just not part of today's culture.

[RU2U]

I think it was meant as a joke, not a training method.

I always tell my horses "If you don't get into the trailer, BIL-JAC ( a dog food co.) is within walking distance" Their headquarters was within walking distance of our house. Now even though tempted on more then one occasion, would I do it NO. Do the horse beleive that - yes because they always get in the trailer, but if you look at the back of the bag - well its no longer made with horse and corn is one of the first ingrediants. Now the people standing around us - well they get a good laugh.

DRAMA - try not to hurt yourself, you take life too seriously!

[katarine]

Chai and Thomas...let me tell you something, Chai is not far off base.

So Chai...your not far off when you say that you were concerned. Even some of the smaller shows I have gone to people are asses and don't really care what you or I think. Good for you for speaking up or for asking questions. Good for you!

Neither Chai nor you have ANY idea what this man meant. You have both drawn conclusions and handed down judgments based on an off the cuff comment.

Good for her for leaving follow up questions unasked, and therefore, unanswered?

How did she speak up? I don't see it, please let me know where she gained clarification of what those words really meant, in context. Not OUT of context and GUESSED at.


I am ALL for sticking my nose in where it's warranted. I am NOT into drawing and quartering a guy who wasn't even asked a meaningful follow up question.

Tell me what I'm missing: not about the case you are trying 5 states away. Tell me what I don't get about THIS case.

[Thomas_1]

Chai and Thomas...let me tell you something, Chai is not far off base. So are you saying that you know who it is that Chai is talking about? You know what he does and how he trains?

Or are you also just taking a guess? After all the OP didn't see anything and didn't ask any questions about what was meant.

My postings were merely in response to the comments contained within this thread and made by the OP.

I am currently waiting for the final verdict on some folks who DO beat their horses and I have had enough of their horrid and much disgusting manner around their Clydesdale's. For 3 years now my husband and I have watched them take the show stick and beat the horse under the chin, across the nose, in the chest, shoulders, legs and across the knees, etc. I personally wouldn't have watched abuse for 3 years but then I accept that people have different standards.

They rush the horse if it sticks its head out of the stall and nickers, wave their arms at them, slap them with their hand across the muzzle, scream at them all the time and jerk and yank on the lead shank. I know the proper manner, education, and training that goes into having a stallion in public and this is not it. I sent a letter of complaint as well as a video of what they were doing to the Clydesdale Association AND I am going to my own club board with the same and demanding that they do something. I'm amazed at the fact that it took 3 years of observation to decide to do something and then when you did it was just a polite letter to a horse breed association and who have no statutory power to prosecute for cruelty or abuse.

Yes, unfortunately some DO beat their draft horses and it is disgusting manner or practice. Erm but does this have anything to do with this thread???

But, most people don't want to get involved nor do they want to be the one to say ENOUGH! Many turn their head, they walk away, others feel it isn't their problem, it isn't their horse, etc. And some might actually believe there's abuse and rush to a bulletin board to tell a bunch of strangers about it.

If that's what you think counts for influence to change then I don't mind telling you that it's not. It's ineffective and won't achieve a thing!

As we have seen on this board, if we all become sheep and follow the herd, the horse can and often times get the worse of the abuse and those who will speak up and be the voice for that horse finds a life that is less than humane when they step in. If the cap fits then wear it. But don't consider that I don't take effective action when I see horse abuse. Trust me effective action is NOT posting on a bulletin board.

That's pointless!

So Chai...your not far off when you say that you were concerned. Even some of the smaller shows I have gone to people are asses and don't really care what you or I think. Good for you for speaking up or for asking questions. Good for you! Erm you've clearly read something or know something that the rest of us mere mortals aren't privilege to.

The OP didn't speak up and she never asked a single effective question. We heard that she asked one question, made an assumption and did nothing other than run to her keyboard to post a purile thread.

[SmokenMirrors]

What I didn't say, as I think because you don't know the full story or history of this farm...I did complain the first year, that was when their 2200lb, 18H Clydesdale stallion got out of it's stall and went after our friends Belgian gelding tied to the trailer next to ours. It was a very vicious attack and trying to untie the stallion my husband was kicked in the legs. He got up and got the stallion off of the gelding, the stallion trotted around our trailers, finding our mare tied there began to snort and tease and tried to mount her several times. Thank god she wasn't in heat and when he tried to mount and penetrate she squealed and kicked him, catching him in the legs as he came down, slicing them open as she wore back shoes then. Those folks never came to see if my husband was okay, dead, lame or otherwise till all their in hand classes were finishes some hours later. That year we tried to have the rules changed about woman handling stallions and stricter rules governing the showing of stallions, it was shot down and I was told I was prejudice against woman handling stallions..if it had been THEIR husband they may of felt differently.

Second year we watched them beat, slap, jerk, and yank their stallion around. Each time that woman or her husband, raised their hand that stallions head went up in expectation of a slap or a hit. Didn't matter where they struck, under the chin, the chest, the legs, side of the jaw, etc. Again, we brought it up and we wanted something done, we were told to shut up and mind our own business, that it wasn't our horse, others felt it was sour grapes. No one wanted to get involved and those who did were also told that this is how the "A Rated shows" did their shows. So nothing was done.

Same stuff different year. You don't think the Clydesdale Association can't do something about this WITH proof? Think again. Yes they can do something, they can suspend them, they can suspend their breeding license, or they can slap them with a big fine. When you show under a breed association, your a representative for that breed.

If she got a farm name and if they are Percherons, yes, I can probably tell you who they are and how they treat their horses. I was only saying that just because someone said something doesn't mean they aren't being serious. But then again, I am only going on assumption right?? Having the knowledge and seeing what is done isn't enough is it? Guess not.

[MySparrow]

I'm glad the OP brought this issue to the forum, because after 40 years with horses I still haven't figured out an effective way to intervene in such circumstances -- though I almost always try! It's an emotional situation -- to handle in the moment, or to discuss on a forum. Having had a whip raised against me in one case, I have learned to be more cautious, but I am always looking for effective responses.

So setting aside the scenario in the original question, Thomas and others, just how do you intervene? These things don't always take place in a venue with stewards and TDs, so let's assume they are not available. And let's paint three scenarios:

1. Little schooling show with driving classes. Horse and small driver have issues in ring and horse misbehaves. Riding school owner grabs horse at end of class, pulls off harness in a fury, snatches up crop and marches off "behind the barn." You've got your own horses and students to manage. What do you do?

2. Parking area at head of a trail. Another group of riders returns as you are getting ready to set out. One horse in that group is obviously upset, and rider is yanking and spurring in a temper. Jumps off at their trailer and begins shouting and slapping at horse. What do you do?

3. Country horse sale. Off to the side a teenaged boy is driving a sad looking mare who is badly lame; boy seems oblivious. You catch his attention and say excuse me but your mare is lame. His reply: she ain't lame. She just got something wrong with her foot. He drives off at a mad pace. What do you do?

These are three situations I have faced among many, and I'm sure others could paint even more graphic situations. All of us have remade horses that came from such situations, and wish that we could prevent them altogether. What's the best way to intervene?

[Thomas_1]

I'm glad the OP brought this issue to the forum, because after 40 years with horses I still haven't figured out an effective way to intervene in such circumstances -- though I almost always try! It's an emotional situation -- to handle in the moment, or to discuss on a forum. Having had a whip raised against me in one case, I have learned to be more cautious, but I am always looking for effective responses.? It's very much a quick "weigh up and judge the circumstances and to be frank I've actually intervened in a heck of a lot of real life situations that I could post about.

To me there's a difference between discipline and abuse. Discipline is swift, immediate and appropriate. Abuse is done in anger, sustained, considered and planned (so not immediate!) and inappropriate to the misdemeanour.

I am not opposed to giving a horse that's behaving badly a swift reprimand such as a slap or kick but immediate and just as a horse would tell another horse off for stepping over the line.

But all irrelevent to this thread. The OP didn't see anything and didn't ask a thing!

So setting aside the scenario in the original question, Thomas and others, just how do you intervene? These things don't always take place in a venue with stewards and TDs, so let's assume they are not available. And let's paint three scenarios:

Approaches I've taken have ranged from education, to telling, to reporting, to threatening!

1. Little schooling show with driving classes. Horse and small driver have issues in ring and horse misbehaves. Riding school owner grabs horse at end of class, pulls off harness in a fury, snatches up crop and marches off "behind the barn." You've got your own horses and students to manage. What do you do? Leave my horses to their grooms and go follow and ask what they think they're doing and if they appreciate it contravenes show rules.

Then dependent on what happens next, lodge a complaint with the show regulating body.

2. Parking area at head of a trail. Another group of riders returns as you are getting ready to set out. One horse in that group is obviously upset, and rider is yanking and spurring in a temper. Jumps off at their trailer and begins shouting and slapping at horse. What do you do? Shout "What the F do you think you're doing! Stop it NOW"

3. Country horse sale. Off to the side a teenaged boy is driving a sad looking mare who is badly lame; boy seems oblivious. You catch his attention and say excuse me but your mare is lame. His reply: she ain't lame. She just got something wrong with her foot. He drives off at a mad pace. What do you do? Report to the authorities that are running the sale.

And I appreciate we are much more highly regulated than you are! Shows here ALWAYS have stewards and equine events always have welfare rules and officials who are responsible for enforcement.

However personally I start with TELLING the perpetrator.

[lisae]

I would only like to add that it is a common colloquialism here in the States, so "taking someone behind the barn" does mean a beating. So that would be how OP got the idea, the handler 'told' her. Whether it was tongue in cheek no one including OP can tell.

Considering that I am working with a Percheron-Morgan cross mare who came to me with issues about raised hands and handling of her left ear, it does happen.

I handle her very differently than the 16 month old Haflinger "beastie girl" I just got, who has been allowed to nip, toss her head at you, and spin around to kick. Every minute with her has to be about control. She has not received a smack yet because that's my last resort... but it's not beyond the realm of possibility. :winkgrin:

[LostFarmer]

I personally have seen more horses, dogs, and kids ruined by lack of discipline that by over discipline. I am known as a pony abuser. Mostly because if one wants to be a jerk I work him until he is ready to listen. Some horses refuse to engage the brain until the sweat flows clear. Is that abuse? To some. My kid lips off to someone within ear shot or better yet back hand range. They get a right smart immediate response. Abuse??

I have the opinion that if I can beat the hell out of them or better yet make them think I will with in 3 seconds of an infraction of the rules it is okay after that it is being mean. Watch the herd dynamics sometime. Do you really think you can hurt a horse as bad as a pasture mate?

I am currently having some behind the barn time with one of my shire mares. She is the lead mare of my little band and can be a little harsh to the little geldings. I don't worry about it out in the pasture but in the corrals they better behave because I am the boss. I was kicked once when a mare was marish and the gelding tried to escape. In my presence no nasty faces, no ears back and keep your feet to yourself. Ladybug took a couple of whacks with the whiffle ball bat understand that. Abuse??

I get so *(&$#^* tired of do gooders stuffing their nose into my business that I turn a deaf ear to most of these types of discussion. Not that abuse doesn't happen but it happens far less than most want to believe.

LF

[SomethingDazzling]

I personally have seen more horses, dogs, and kids ruined by lack of discipline that by over discipline.

I have to agree.

[SmokenMirrors]

I have to agree.

LOL go to Wal-Mart late at night of when the welfare checks are out...I tend to agree about the lack of discipline too....

[goeslikestink]

ooh for godsake op you asked and he responded to your questions with light sense of humour as in making light conversation, as in idol chit chat you deemed the worse
so lets see in comaprison you wrote this

I have done a little driving, and I took lessons for a year with my pony and a trainer who did a great job teaching her to drive. She handled her very well and my pony really took to it.
I also have a draft horse that I have considered driving with, but he is more spooky and is a fidget just tacking up to ride.

lets see ------

I have done a little driving, and I took lessons for a year with my pony and a trainer who did a great job teaching her to drive. She handled her very well and my pony really took to it.

so the horse was good at one point be it this one or the other one at one point you had a good horse




I also have a draft horse that I have considered driving with, but he is more spooky and is a fidget just tacking up to ride.


what happened did you take it behind the barn - as hes now spooking and a fidget

thats you not the horse as your letting him do xyz

get me drift idol chit chat

[hitchinmygetalong]

GLS, you realize she is referring to two separate horses, don't you?

[Unprovoked92]

I have worked around a few large hitch teams a few years ago. If Chia is in Ma I actually know the team and I have worked around them before. I can tell you these hitch teams are given the best possible care, but it is of the up most importance that they behave. A large draft horse acting up in a crowd is a recipe for disaster. These horses are by no means beaten, but they are expected to behave. Unfortunately it is near impossible to correct the problem in public because most people wont understand. I can remember holding misbehaving drafts waiting to go in the ring for their demo and telling them under my breath that I could wait to get them behind the barn. Did I ever? Absolutely not. Once they got in the ring to do their job, they were happy. But I have also had to jerk around on a chain shank on a few in the barn because I don't care how short I am, they aren't running me over :) A lot of the guys who work with these demo teams have been doing it forever, they are crusty old men who say things for shock value only