HORSELOVERZ!!!! Is this LEGAL??? Need Advice how to Proceed! [Archive]

artisticgold

Oct. 9, 2009, 09:35 PM

I've been looking for a comfortable trail saddle for quite some time, researching, and checking prices. Finally settled on a Tucker saddle, and came across a great deal on HORSELOVERZ.COM. They advertised a Tucker River Plantation saddle for 1/2 price, regular price was $1449, and the advertised sale price was $725. I also had a promo code of 10% off, so I called, spoke with a customer service rep, placed the order, got an invoice, and confirmation to my email. Paid the invoice, they deducted the money from my account, and I got a confirmation that the invoice was paid in full, and my order was 'in process'. Well, I was awaiting an email that my saddle was shipped, INSTEAD I got an email that they cancelled the transaction and were going to refund my money because the manufacturer wouldn't allow them to sell the saddle for that price!

Well, I'm really upset. I spent a lot of time making the decision to purchase this particular saddle, went to a tack shop twice to try out a tucker like it, and to check wither tracings to be sure it would fit. I also had a deposit on a used Tucker Gen II at the tack shop and I cancelled that transaction to buy the horseloverz saddle.

My question is this...Can they LEGALLY do that? They advertised the saddle for a set price, they gave me an invoice and actually sold me the saddle for that price, and took the money. Wouldn't that be false advertising and also breach of contract? I would think they would have to give me the saddle for the price they sold it to me for, and figure out how to make it right on their side. Not my fault, theirs....Any attorneys care to comment? I'm really, really upset, never had anything like this happen before.

Thanks!!!!

sketcher

Oct. 9, 2009, 10:18 PM

Someone made a mistake. You purchased it for 1/2 price- is it hard for you to believe someone made a bona fide mistake at that price? It doesn't sound like they bait and switched it or tried to stick it to you in some other way. Why not just drop it. Such is life, not worth wasting the negative energy over.

gloriginger

Oct. 9, 2009, 10:22 PM

they pull this kind of crap all the time. They do it on Ebay too- they have items listed really low, and then right before the auction is about to end - if it isn't at the price it should be they end the item early saying "no longer in stock."

There are so many stories about this company - I don't know why anyone would do business with them.

sorry about your saddle- what a bummer.

Sparky

Oct. 9, 2009, 10:31 PM

Crooked Horse

Oct. 9, 2009, 10:31 PM

I know the kind of angry and disappointed you are right now. You'll probably need a few weeks to calm down.
By refunding your money they probably covered their you-know-what. I don't know though...there's that whole truth in advertising thing...

Crooked Horse

Oct. 9, 2009, 10:33 PM

Meredith Clark

Oct. 9, 2009, 10:36 PM

My best friend owns a tack shop and her biggest pet peeve is a" customer" like you who comes in, tries a saddle, comes back to try it AGAIN, and then orders it from some on line outfit. Give me a break.

I worked in a tack store for years and this was very common.

We'd have Dad's come in and measure our tack boxes and take pictures to go build their own.

At the end of the day we would either try to WOW them with our customer service and get them to buy our product, wait until they realize it's too hard or customer service at other places is horrible (horseloverz.. etc) or just shake it off and focus on customers that will actually BUY things :)

HenryisBlaisin'

Oct. 9, 2009, 10:40 PM

Isn't it true in a retail store that if an item is marked by the store at a certain price, they are required by law to sell it to you at that price-even if it's a mistake on thier part? Does that not apply to mail order.

And Sparky-I understand your friend's frustration, but for a big ticket item, I, for one, am absolutely going to buy the product from the retailer who offers the best price. I know that my local tack store, for example, is very expensive compared to online retailers. I give them a lot of business because they are AWESOME, but still buy the expensive stuff where I can get the best price. A $50 savings is huge for a person on a limited budget. If a tack store won't sell at the lowest price, they will lose some sales on items that are not emergency purchases.

sketcher

Oct. 9, 2009, 10:42 PM

Yeah ouch. For the store with the first class customer service who works to make a customer satisifed and who has a person there to give advice or take care of a problem and sometimes spend considerable time to find the right saddle for a customer only to have that customer order online later from someone else with lower overhead.

It was the same thing as when I used to work in the Nursery Business and the big box stores started opening and selling plants. People would come to us for valuable and knowledgeable advice, and help in their landscape design and then they would go to a box box store and by the cheap stuff. Many of those family owned businesses are gone now.

Quin

Oct. 9, 2009, 10:56 PM

Junebugz

Oct. 9, 2009, 11:09 PM

Paragon

Oct. 9, 2009, 11:31 PM

My best friend owns a tack shop and her biggest pet peeve is a" customer" like you who comes in, tries a saddle, comes back to try it AGAIN, and then orders it from some on line outfit. Give me a break.

Oh god, I know. There's nothing I hate more than people who try to make educated choices before spending hundreds of dollars. How dare they choose to spend it somewhere else?

Those bastards.

nightsong

Oct. 9, 2009, 11:32 PM

Did they actually refund the money?

minnie

Oct. 10, 2009, 12:08 AM

Oh god, I know. There's nothing I hate more than people who try to make educated choices before spending hundreds of dollars. How dare they choose to spend it somewhere else?

Those bastards.

Yes, and please remember this when the local tack stores go out of business and you can no longer go there to check out the saddles (which they've already purchased and have there for you to see, feel, touch and try) and the boots, which they conveniently have in several sizes, along with the bootpulls for you to try and the breeches and the coats and, and and and. They usually have pretty knowledgeable clerks to help you find the appropriate style and size, they're usually pretty well versed in "what's in" and they dutifully take their time to help you, clean up after you, just so that you can go online and save a couple bucks by buying online.

sublimequine

Oct. 10, 2009, 12:13 AM

I'm not surprised at this at all. Equiteric is a horrible company. Now just wait for their Customer Service rep who is a member on here to come storming in and promise to make everything all better. :rolleyes:

Coreene

Oct. 10, 2009, 12:56 AM

Sparky, you go girl. I totally agree with you.

Tiffani B

Oct. 10, 2009, 12:57 AM

I don't think they did anything illegal. I work for a large mail order company and we have had similar things happen. A customer places an order, we charge their card in anticipation of the item shipping from the mfr, THEN we find out something that prevents the sale (product is discontinued, price has risen 200%, etc). By refunding the money the transaction is cancelled.

"Truth in advertising" only applies to price if when you get to the cash register (i.e. the shopping cart) a different price or item is displayed. But a sale is an agreement between TWO parties - and either party can back out at any time, so long as neither merchandise nor money has permanently changed hands. Remember - a product can be returned, and money can be refunded. Also, read the fine print on their site. If it says something like "not responsible for typos" or "pricing subject to change at any time without notice" they have a way out. Oftentimes a website is not updated immediately when a price changes so they have to have a way to cover their butt. On our site, it takes up to two hours for product and price changes to go live. We have to have a legal way to cover our butts for the order that comes in during the limbo period.

What IS illegal is the manufacturer telling a reseller what price they can/cannot sell a product for. They can dictate what price an item is ADVERTISED for but legally they cannot dictate the SELLING price. A vendor can be restricted from advertising a sale price, and would have to put "call for price" or something on their site, but the manufacturer cannot tell them what they must sell it for. That we have had our lawyers research several times, due to manufacturers trying to play that game with us over the decades.

So, there's nothing you can do. You could maybe call the company and try to cajole the manager into honoring the sale, but it's doubtful they will. It sounds like they were caught advertising below the allowed price and got their hands slapped.

MrWinston

Oct. 10, 2009, 01:11 AM

I don't think you have any recourse since they gave you a refund. Brings to mind that when something looks too good to be true, it probably IS!

saultgirl

Oct. 10, 2009, 09:41 AM

Although I don't have any specific advice, I would certainly raise hell over this. Horseloverz should be eating the difference if they can't get the saddle from the manufacturer at that price. And if you don't actually get the deal on the saddle you wanted, spreading the word to fellow shoppers is imo the best thing to do.

If they are not willing to work with you I would also send an email to COTH outlining the shady business practices and complain that COTH carries a horseloverz add.

Mav226

Oct. 10, 2009, 09:51 AM

Isn't it true in a retail store that if an item is marked by the store at a certain price, they are required by law to sell it to you at that price-even if it's a mistake on thier part?

No, common misconception. Say you walk into Walmart and they have BBQ grills advertised at $3.99. You take a grill up to the register and try to purchase it. Then, they inform you that the price was a mistake. They do NOT have to honor that price. Why, you ask?

Their advertising the item is not the "offer" under the law. (In order to have a contract, you must have an offer and acceptance of that offer) The courts have determined that when you bring the BBQ to the cash register, YOU are offering to purchase the product at the advertised price. When the store accepts your offer, a contract is formed. They can refuse to accept your "offer" even if the item is marked at that price.

Without knowing more specifics on your situation, I wouldn't speculate as to what is going on with horseloverz...but it sounds as though they accepted the OPs offer.

LearnToFly

Oct. 10, 2009, 10:28 AM

From the FTC website: (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus35.shtm)

"What responsibility does a company have to make sure that prices are accurate?

In many jurisdictions, companies are legally required to charge no more than the advertised or shelf price for a product, so good pricing practices are important for both customer satisfaction and a company’s bottom line."

I'm not sure how this applies if they refunded all of your money, but I expect it still does, as the transaction DID actually occur. I would contact your local Better Business Bureau and ask what they would recommend.

ETA- COTH, as an advertising platform, does have the right to refuse Horseloverz ad if they think the company is being irresponsible with their advertising.

OP- would you please keep me posted on how this turns out either on this thread or via PM? My senior project is on internet advertising dishonesty/future regulations, and this is right in that grouping!

LearnToFly

Oct. 10, 2009, 10:38 AM

My best friend owns a tack shop and her biggest pet peeve is a" customer" like you who comes in, tries a saddle, comes back to try it AGAIN, and then orders it from some on line outfit. Give me a break.

Get over it. If you want me to come in and actually BUY something, then change your business model and figure out how to lower prices. The internet is not going away anytime soon; it's time tack shops accommodate accordingly.

(Sorry if I sound grouchy. I've been studying advertising regulations all week)

LisaO

Oct. 10, 2009, 10:50 AM

I just WISH I had a good tack store nearby... I got so spoiled when living on the East Coast. The tack store prices were fair (especially when you factor in not having to pay shipping - since shipping costs are rising) and I got great deals when things were on sale. Often they would honor a comparable 'online' price when asked.

Now I'm in the hinterlands and stuck with the internet. It's getting tougher and tougher to find 'free shipping' which made their sometimes lower prices worthwhile. Fortunately, I think I'm finally reaching maximum saturation and for the most part all I have to purchase now are consumables.

katarine

Oct. 10, 2009, 11:14 AM

if it sounds too good to be true, it is. No way in the world to get a new Tucker for less than 1k, period.

I'd let it go and move on, but you're free to report to the BBB and such.

Couture TB

Oct. 10, 2009, 11:32 AM

Tack stores can loose their retailer rights to sell certain products if they advertise the item for less then what the company making the item tells them they can. A friend runs a tack shop and sells some very nice high quality bridles and if she is caught selling them for less then they will stop supplying them to her.

By the way I have never had a problem with horselovez. I actually love their website. But that is just me. I also only order online if I can't find it locally.

Coreene

Oct. 10, 2009, 11:37 AM

Get over it. If you want me to come in and actually BUY something, then change your business model and figure out how to lower prices. The internet is not going away anytime soon; it's time tack shops accommodate accordingly.

If you had a tack shop, you would know that your price is often dictated by the volume purchased and countless other factors, distributor pricing - many manufacturers do not direct sales - etc.

Sparky

Oct. 10, 2009, 01:43 PM

Get over it. If you want me to come in and actually BUY something, then change your business model and figure out how to lower prices. The internet is not going away anytime soon; it's time tack shops accommodate accordingly.

(Sorry if I sound grouchy. I've been studying advertising regulations all week)

Yes you do sound grouchy and I get that Internet shopping is here to stay buy everything you can online. But I will always think it's rude and thoughtless to go into someones shop for the sole purpose of "trying" things out--and this includes boots britches coats and saddles, just to gather information when you have no intention of buying.

My friend has been in business for almost 30 years and has learned to gently tell these folks that she is open to trying to meet a competitor's price. She got over it but it still is a pet peeve. Me? I would have been out of business in a week

Lady Counselor

Oct. 10, 2009, 02:18 PM

You know...I hate to say it but I can see both sides here. OP wants a good deal. Nothing wrong with that.
But Sparky is right on, although perhaps not as PC as she may have liked.
The internet is fine for some things, things that you KNOW are fine and won't need exchanging.
But if you are going to invest the money in something high end, be it clothing, tack, etc, you really should find yourself a decent store that you like and has good service, and then pay a couple of dollars more for the SERVICE that you are getting.
That 'service' includes stocking items in various sizes that you can try on or out, advice on fitting, return services, even layaway plans.
If you are all about price, then fine, take your chances and order online. But DON'T then take your non-fitting, wrong sized items to the local store and ask them to 'exchange' if for their in stock proper sized ones.
And believe me when I tell you, people do have the balls to do that.
One last note: Make sure you have a good handle on pricing too. I have seen many people come in, try things on and then leave to order them online, apparently not knowing that the shoes they just tried were priced the same as the internet discount retailer! Without the shipping.

cloudyandcallie

Oct. 10, 2009, 02:24 PM

OP: your state probably has some type of "consumer protection bureau". It would be a state office, not a local government thing. Look up the number and call them Monday morning. They'll be able to give you the best legal advice, for free. If they agree with you, they may even be willing to pursue it with the seller for you.

Have paper and scanned versions of all paperwork - original ad, confirmations, proof that they took the $ from you and then gave it back, and their reasoning. Keep extra copies of everything. You might even want to go back to the tack store and get something in writing from them, on their letterhead, confirming your history of having had a similar item on hold and then cancelling it (proves your lost opportunity cost - the "damages").

Yes take all this to your attorney general, your better business bureau and to every place that you can. It is illegal to cancel a transpaction after they have made the sale to you. They cannot run an ad and then cancel after you have sent in payment. They can cancel before if they run another ad telling that the item is not available at that price, but the retraction ad must be before you have accepted and sent payment. Their error with the saddle company is their problem, not yours. I forget where the company is, but if it is out of your state, send copies of everything to the feds (US atty) and the federal trade commission (is it still around?) and to every agency anyone can think of in both states. Allege internet fraud. Raise cane.
Keep your originals and give everyone copies. Complain complain. You'll get some action. Also if your local tv stations have a consumer help line, call them up. We had great ones in Atlanta (who were often assaulted when helping consumers) and you will get some action..........like the saddle or something else that you want.
They cannot be so dumb that they don't know that the UCC, uniform commerical code, applies to all interstate transactions.

cloudyandcallie

Oct. 10, 2009, 02:28 PM

And the answer to your question is "no they cannot legally do this" once they took your money. Don't let them get away with it.

PS, I try to buy most things locally, but I've bought saddles both at the Bluffton tack store and from Germany (on ebay) so I believe in shopping both locally and internationally. We have no tack shop in Savannah.

enjoytheride

Oct. 10, 2009, 02:35 PM

The trouble with local tack stores is that they carry a very limited supply of often used items, have odd hours that don't work around my schedule, are unfriendly unless you are a trainer or run a tab, or have no idea what they are talking about. My local tack store will let you take home a saddle for fit but you may not girth it up, put leathers on, or get it dirty. They did suggest that you can sit on the non girthed up saddle in the crossties.

Guin

Oct. 10, 2009, 03:00 PM

They gave you back your money. What's the issue, other that you throwing a temper tantrum? It's not like they kept your money, or charged another $500 to your credit card. So you didn't get the deal of the century on a saddle. Get over it.

grandprixjump

Oct. 10, 2009, 03:01 PM

It's pretty bad when wholesale price is HIGHER than the big box or online stores sell at RETAIL.. How can the small shops compete with that?

Wouldn't it be a blast, to go back in time 60-70 years and put up to behemoth store right beside Sam Walton's little "Five and Dime"?

LauraKY

Oct. 10, 2009, 03:05 PM

My tack store will try to match a price you get elsewhere. I patronize them regularly even if their price is a little higher. Should would hate to see them go out of business. I figure I'm paying a little extra for the customer service and knowledge. They also have a great return policy if something is not quite right!

enjoytheride

Oct. 10, 2009, 03:13 PM

I think the issue is that Horselovers advertised an item for a price they could not sell it at. If they cared about good business they would have checked their facts before, or honored the price and ate the loss.

I have purchased things on ebay only to have the seller suddenly say the item wasn't available. Instead of setting the opening bid or reserve price they just assumed they'd get what they wanted then backed out at the last minute.

4Martini

Oct. 10, 2009, 03:17 PM

I have to say my first order from Horseloverz was a Masta High Neck heavyweight blanket. I think they put the decimal point in the wrong place b/c it was like $11.90 or something (reguarly like a $300 blanket.) I showed it to my DH and asked if I should order it even though I didn't really need a heavy weight just to see if they would really ship it and they did! (since as my horse has aged it has become one of my favorite blankets.) The next day they had moved the decimal point, but not before shipping me the blanket.

I have ordered a bunch of other things from them since and never had an issue.

Just thought I'd add my experience!

chaltagor

Oct. 10, 2009, 03:21 PM

If they cared about good business

They don't.

cloudyandcallie

Oct. 10, 2009, 03:29 PM

They don't.

I've never bought anything from them, but I do know that other places, both local and on the net, follow the law, and when it is their mistake or mixup, they, the other businesses "eat" the loss

Foxtrot's

Oct. 10, 2009, 03:30 PM

OP has my sympathies..it shoud lnot have been advertised as such. Local tack stores do offer a service on-line cannot, and as such I try to support them. Where else would I get braiding elastics at the last moment, etc.

We own a nursery (water garden specialty nursery) and have the same problem. People come in, spend hours asking questions, and then run off to Home Depot or go on line to save a couple of bucks. However, because we are small, my husband is the local guru, we attract a certain type of clientel. People know, that if they buy everything for their particular job from us, they can come back year after year for advice - he will fix their pumps for free, clean the uv filters and can make anything work again. My husband has every widget and gidget to get the pipes and lines linked up, the right glues, knowledge of water chemisty, fish health, etc. - the overall experience from twenty-five years in business. We never have a bum cheque, and best of all, our customers bring us no end of treats - chocolate, wine, whiskey, fresh farm produce, honey, coffee, etc - whatever they are into, they share with us. I think half our customers come for a good visit and cuppa java. to bring the kids, play with dogs, see horses, enjoy the garden, etc.

That being said - if a really good deal was available on line then go for it, but there are disadvantages, too.

cloudyandcallie

Oct. 10, 2009, 03:44 PM

Yes foxtrot's, with plants, people want to be able to go back and get advice when plant looks sick. And the quality is better, Home Depot (altho it is headquartered here in GA) has those plants that are allowed to dry out (even the water garden plants are out of water:confused:) so I buy my flowers and water plants (for the frog water pond:lol:) from a local nursey which gets its plants from Charleston. Better service, healthier plants which live. (the take back guaranty at Home Depot doesn't help when the plants die on you and you have to replant the new ones.)

But a nice saddle at a great price on the net is great, and the company better send OP her saddle. FTC and all.

Auburn

Oct. 10, 2009, 04:00 PM

Back when they called themselves Equiterec, I purchased something from them. I had all sorts of problems. Then, their name changed to Horseloverz. Whenever I see an address out of Hazelton, PA, I avoid that company. I do not believe that they have ever had good customer service. JMHO.

artisticgold

Oct. 10, 2009, 04:58 PM

Thanks for all the advice, positive and negative. What most concerns me with this situation is that the sale was actually processed and completed. They deducted the money from my account - which consitutes a sale, and THEN they cancelled the transaction. IF they had told me when I called the order in that it was a mistake and they couldn't honor the price, or IF they had cancelled the invoice BEFORE I paid for it, then I would certainly understand, it was a mistake and the final sale never actually took place. It just seems that once the transaction has actually taken place, even if the saddle hadn't shipped yet, that they should stand behind the price that was advertised, invoiced and paid. I have been in sales and customer service for over 30 years, and have had a number of businesses with national and international sales, and I would NEVER cancel a transation that was completed, even if it was a huge mistake on my part and I would lose money. I always was told that once a contract was made (which in this case would be the invoice, then the paid receipt for the invoice) and money changed hands, the contract was in force. Of course, you could try to cancel the transaction, but the buyer would have recourse to sue to get the contract upheld. I've always prided myself on my customer service, and making sure that there was complete disclosure and satisfaction before, during, and after the sale. I guess I'm just a little frustrated with all the companies and businesses that don't seem to care about their customers anymore, and try to take advantage. This just seems illegal and absolutely unethical, and I hate to see them get away with it, then they will continue to do this sort of thing with other customers. That's probably what they count on, that people will just accept it, and not make a fuss, then they win and don't change their ways. I'm going to pursue all my options, to prove the point and make them change their practices.

As far as going to the tack shop twice and trying saddles, I actually had rather poor service, attitudes - lots of loud audible sighing, rolling of eyes, etc, and not being able to get anyone to help with a few easy questions. I actually have given them lots of business over the years, and they have made quite a bit of money off of me, and my friends. Their customer service USED to be very high, and I found it pretty lacking and irksome when I went these two times. Despite that, I spent about $500 there, so they didn't waste their time on me coming to their store. I also wanted to see if they would take a trade in of a custom saddle that I had as part payment for a Tucker, but they only wanted to give me $125, guess they thought I was stupid, so I said I would keep it and use it as a decoration first. I still was going to purchase the used, more expensive Tucker saddle from them, but decided I liked the model from Horseloverz better, especially since it was hundreds of dollars less. In theory, I would LOVE to give all of my business to the local businessmen and women, but since I have a limited budget, I also have to make smart decisions for me and my family....Just to clarify for the people who are up in arms that I didn't purchase from the tack store, I still spent hundreds there, despite their poor customer service...Now I have to go back a 3rd!!! time, since they were out of some insulated water buckets that I wanted to buy. At an hour each way, so two hours per trip, x 3, this is a huge waste of my time and effort. They still got a lot of my money for their not so great effort, so they still made out. Just wanted to get all the facts out there.....

artisticgold

Oct. 10, 2009, 05:00 PM

oh, and I don't actually have my money back yet, it went out of my account immediately, but you know it takes several days to a week to get it refunded back to the account, so I can't even purchase another saddle right now if I wanted to, so I'm stuck waiting for that to be refunded and available again.

Paragon

Oct. 10, 2009, 05:23 PM

Mmm, I went to a tack shop when I was in the market. I sat in some saddles to find what sort of shape I needed to accommodate my body type, I got some saddles on trial from other locations (and paid plenty for shipping). I knew exactly which saddle I wanted - a specific used Crosby in a 17in - and so I found one online somewhere. I was entirely unhappy with the condition of the saddle when it arrived, went to the tack shop, sat in some more, and - wonder of wonders - found a totally different used Stuebben that fit me like a glove. Like night and day with the Crosby. I loved it.

Sent the internet saddle back, bought the Stuebben.

Had it not been for me shopping around, trying to ensure my satisfaction, I probably wouldn't have picked up the Stuebben from the tack shop. I may not have bought a saddle at all. The process would have been impossible, particularly on my budget.

So, thank you to Equus Now for being so helpful, so kind, and so willing while I was shopping around, parking my butt in their saddles. Even though I'm not in Columbus anymore, that experience won them a client for life. I'll just have to pay their shipping now.

Anyway. Such is life.

Sparky

Oct. 10, 2009, 06:31 PM

Artisticgold I'm at QH Congress and Horselovers has a booth here. Maybe I should show this thread to them.

shalomypony

Oct. 10, 2009, 09:30 PM

Do that, since it's the actual owner that has the Horseloverz stand at Congress.He's quite good to deal with.I buy a lot from them and deal directly with him often.I think they are terrific and have never had an issue in any way with them.I'm sure he'll want to know of this issue and will address it accordingly.Good luck.

mvp

Oct. 10, 2009, 09:39 PM

shalomypony, could you pass this along, too? (Feel free to put it in nicer terms if you like. I did raise it in my own "WTF?!?" terms with a customer service rep).

Anywhoo, here's the problem:

Horseloverz will send a saddle to try-- both on horse and rider, but it cannot be returned with marks on the billets. That means that the tack store expects someone to somehow get up on a saddle sans girth. I might be able to do that, but I can't imagine how I'd get off. But the whole practice sounds ridiculously unsafe. So what's the point in offering a trial at all?

FWIW, I won't buy a saddle that I can't try on my horse and that I can't at least sit in. That usually dictates which tack stores-- virtual or bricks-n-mortar-- I'll patronize.

oldenmare

Oct. 10, 2009, 10:40 PM

Actually, Mav, that varies by state. So, in the OP's state, she may have a legitimate argument.

artisticgold

Oct. 11, 2009, 07:22 AM

Sparky, I guess that would be fine to bring this issue up to the head man. I will be making a lot of phone calls and checking all my options Monday morning. I have purchased loads of things from Horseloverz/Equiteric for YEARS, and never had a problem. I've been able to pick up great deals at cheap prices, so I never questioned this purchase as I was told by someone that the River Plantation saddle was not as popular as some of the other models, so thought they just wanted to unload some stock. Again, if they had known that they couldn't actually sell the saddle at the price they offered and caught it before I actually paid for the purchase, I wouldn't argue the point. I feel this is like going to buy a new car, and the deal is made, and the car is paid for, and THEN when you go to pull off the lot in your new car, the salesman says that you have to give the car back as they sold it to you too cheap...WHAT?

I say it's their problem, not mine. I bought in good faith, the sale was finalized, I think they should make it right....

Mendin Fences

Oct. 11, 2009, 10:11 AM

The way Horseloverz handled the situation certainly does not model decent customer service! They knew for over a week that the OP had intentions to purchase the saddle and didn't speak up until after they took her money!

As for the local tack store, the service there has gone somewhat sour as well. The first time the OP was thinking about purchasing a new trail saddle, she drove the hour each way with her horses in tow (making the trip even longer) to try some saddles on them. The people in the store barely gave her the time of day and she did not have a good experience. You would think that if a customer goes through all that trouble, they are probably an easy sell, provided you have a good product and a good sales attitude. Despite their poor service, she put a deposit on one of the tack store's saddles.

LearnToFly

Oct. 11, 2009, 10:24 AM

As for the local tack store, the service there has gone somewhat sour as well. The first time the OP was thinking about purchasing a new trail saddle, she drove the hour each way with her horses in tow (making the trip even longer) to try some saddles on them. The people in the store barely gave her the time of day and she did not have a good experience. You would think that if a customer goes through all that trouble, they are probably an easy sell, provided you have a good product and a good sales attitude. Despite their poor service, she put a deposit on one of the tack store's saddles.

I think this is ultimately the reason I was so grouchy yesterday. My local tack shop at college is the only one in the area and I have never been happy with them, their prices, their customer service, etc. I walked in and said I was saddle shopping and was looking for a 17" close contact, got handed an index card and was told to go find it myself in the saddle room (there was nobody else in the store). So yeah, I looked at some there and ultimately bought online. You aren't getting my business with service like that.

My tack store in Nashville, however (Judy's) has always been wonderful, and most of the time I'll pay the price there even if it's higher.

Just a lesson in good PR/service.

LearnToFly

Oct. 11, 2009, 10:25 AM

Artisticgold I'm at QH Congress and Horselovers has a booth here. Maybe I should show this thread to them.

I'll bet you my horse that they end up giving you the saddle at the price you originally paid to get the COTH dogs off their back!

Sparky

Oct. 11, 2009, 10:49 AM

I'll bet you my horse that they end up giving you the saddle at the price you originally paid to get the COTH dogs off their back!

We'll see--we show all day so it will have to be later today or tomorrow. And I'll have to get braver-- my bark is a lot worse than my bite when it comes right down to it lol

sketcher

Oct. 11, 2009, 10:56 AM

ARTISTICGOLD, I have to say my opinion has changed from what it was when you originally posted based on the facts you have outlined.

I will think twice before ordering from them again based on this situation. I will also forward this thread to some friends who currently purchase from them.

LearnToFly

Oct. 11, 2009, 01:21 PM

We'll see--we show all day so it will have to be later today or tomorrow. And I'll have to get braver-- my bark is a lot worse than my bite when it comes right down to it lol

Well, for the record, my horse isn't exactly worth anything at the moment...

equinesurety

Oct. 11, 2009, 01:35 PM

Mav226 has it exactly right. I'd only add: An advertisement is usually never binding on the person making the advertisement (except if there are specific laws that prevent false or misleading advertisements in your jurisdiction). If this were a regular business practice on the part of Horseloverz.com in order to dupe people into buying from them, and you could show they never intended to sell bait items designed to lure in customers, then you might be able to do something. But that's going to cost you a lot of time and a lot of effort to make a case that will be pretty hard to make.

According to what the OP wrote, it looks like there was more than an advertisement here. There was an actual contract for the purchase of the item. HORSELOVERZ.com refunding of the money, however, probably remedied any breach they caused by failing to deliver the item. In addition, another party to a contract (Horseloverz.com in this case) is almost never liable for preparations you may make to enter into the contract: i.e., the fact that you did a lot of research before buying, is not something you could hold Horseloverz.com liable for.

The real question is not whether it's legal or not - there may be laws in your jurisdiction that prevent people from falsely advertising the sale of items if they never have any intention of delivering them - the real question is what you can do about it. Given that you got your money refunded, the best you could do is file a complaint with the BBB.

Probably your post on this forum was seen by several hundred people who regularly buy horse-related products, and accomplished quite a lot.

Hope this helps!

equinesurety

Oct. 11, 2009, 01:45 PM

They deducted the money from my account - which constitutes a sale, and THEN they cancelled the transaction. IF they had told me when I called the order in that it was a mistake and they couldn't honor the price, or IF they had canceled the invoice BEFORE I paid for it, then I would certainly understand, it was a mistake and the final sale never actually took place.

Definitely understand how this can be really frustrating. Here's a thought experiment. Imagine you agreed to buy a saddle from a friend. You gave the friend $1000. In the meantime, before delivering the saddle to you, the friend sold it to another person.

This would clearly be annoying and maybe this person would no longer be your friend. And this person would be in breach of your agreement (a contract). What is the remedy? Let's say the friend returns your $1,000 to you. That basically resolves the situation, and the breach has been remedied.

When I say "the breach has been remedied" I don't mean that you're a happy camper, because obviously you'd rather have the saddle. All I mean is from a legal perspective, there's not more you can do to either punish your friend, get you the saddle, or get you more than your $1,000 back.

Yes, it's frustrating.

(And yes, in certain circumstances, which don't appear to be the case in the original post, you *might* get more than $1,000 upon breach, or you might be able to prove some kind of fraudulent or deceptive business practices. But in the real world, proving fraudulent or deceptive business practices requires hiring an attorney, and at hundreds of $ per hour, you'd very quickly (in the first 15 minutes or so of your first meeting with the attorney) pay more out of pocket to the lawyer than you'd likely ever recover from the merchant.

Hope this helps!

cloudyandcallie

Oct. 11, 2009, 01:53 PM

MHM

Oct. 11, 2009, 03:25 PM

We'll see--we show all day so it will have to be later today or tomorrow. And I'll have to get braver-- my bark is a lot worse than my bite when it comes right down to it lol

You can do it!!!

Don't forget to point out the number of views on the thread already, and the fact that threads that stick around for a while can get 5K, 10K, 50K views. From his potential customer base. ;)

greysandbays

Oct. 11, 2009, 04:31 PM

Wrong. Once "consideration" is given (the money was deducted) it's a contract. Now OP has them also on breach of contract.

They shoud be required by any small claims court to deliver the saddle for the agreed upon price. And in some states, OP can get treble damages.

The contract would not be complete until item is shipped. Breach of contract would have been taking the money and saying they weren't going to sell OP the saddle, but were going to keep the money anyway. Returning the "consideration" would void the contract, not breach it.

If you were buying a horse, and paid in full with shipping arrangements to be made in the following days, and the horse died or got terribly injured before that shipping date, and the seller returned your money, would you bellyache about that?

Rebe

Oct. 11, 2009, 05:25 PM

One of the more valuable documents that the OP has is an e-mail saying Horseloverz was not allowed by the manufacturer to sell the saddle at that price.

That constitutes price-fixing on the part of the manufacturer and Horseloverz, which is a federal crime.

They'll probably scramble backwards from that one if it gets pointed out to the owner.

Mav226

Oct. 11, 2009, 05:34 PM

Wrong. Once "consideration" is given (the money was deducted) it's a contract. Now OP has them also on breach of contract.

Yes, but one could argue that they remedied their breach by refunding the $1,000. (I'm not sure I would buy that argument, but one could certainly make it) That's where it gets tricky.

grandprixjump

Oct. 11, 2009, 07:27 PM

If you were buying a horse, and paid in full with shipping arrangements to be made in the following days, and the horse died or got terribly injured before that shipping date, and the seller returned your money, would you bellyache about that?

The only problem with this thought, is the horse you would be buying is a ONE OF A KIND item, where the saddle isn't. If they could treat saddles as one of a kind, ANY problem in shipping, manufacture, would make the sell, YOUR STUCK WITH THIS P.O.S. that fell apart 5 minutes after purchase...

LearnToFly

Oct. 11, 2009, 08:30 PM

Mav226 has it exactly right. I'd only add: An advertisement is usually never binding on the person making the advertisement (except if there are specific laws that prevent false or misleading advertisements in your jurisdiction).

The real question is not whether it's legal or not - there may be laws in your jurisdiction that prevent people from falsely advertising the sale of items if they never have any intention of delivering them - the real question is what you can do about it. Given that you got your money refunded, the best you could do is file a complaint with the BBB.

False advertising is illegal in EVERY jurisdiction in the USA. And because it's internet commerce, it's ultimately regulated by the FTC. (The BBB is only a self-regulatory agency, technically local. They can't REALLY do anything except make recommendations and then send your case to the FTC if you don't adhere to their word) (Lanham Act, 1946, section 43(a))

But this falls under contract law, I think. Horseloverz, in making the sale and taking your money, went into contract with you and reneged on the deal. They may have some fine print that makes them allowed to do it, but I would contact them and complain anyway, then the BBB.

Regardless of the illegality, its crappy business and this thread is not going to help their bottom line.

sublimequine

Oct. 11, 2009, 08:33 PM

Thing is, there's threads complaining about shady things this company has done over and over again.

I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually get slammed for doing something flat-out illegal (if the OP's situation isn't illegal already?!), get sued, and the company goes under. I wouldn't feel sorry one bit for them, either.

Vindicated

Oct. 11, 2009, 09:10 PM

You know,
I wish I had bothered to look on COTH before bidding on HORSELOVERZ items on Ebay.

Last month, I won 7 items-2 of which were blankets. Got 5 items, waited 5 days-sent a message. Got a refund-no message, not much of a refund for the SHIPPING I paid, but a refund none the less. Sent them a message that I would have prefered to have been given a choice. Mind you all of this happened after I bid on another blanket....We will see how this turns out.

Shall not do business with them again.

Creaghgal

Oct. 12, 2009, 09:25 AM

The power of COTH had me walk right by one of Horseloverz booths… simply because I had continuously heard bad things about them here.

greysandbays

Oct. 12, 2009, 09:36 AM

I've ordered from them several times and not had a problem.

I expect when one deals in their sort of volume shipping out of a warehouse[s], there's bound to be screw-ups now and then. An internet company that initiates the charges, then is unable to supply item, and refunds the charge is not the biggest problem I can think of. If OP had sent a check/money order to a mail order outfit and they couldn't supply an item, they'd send a refund check. Don't see what the difference is, really.

Lady Counselor

Oct. 12, 2009, 11:19 AM

Just some random points/observations from this thread.
When trying a new saddle, to prevent marks from the billets, take a pair of men's tube socks, cut the toe off, slid it up and over the billets to cushion them and prevent marking. Make sure the sock extends fully down the inner flap.
Take an old sheet, cut it to fully cover the underside of the new saddle, and put that on prior to placing the saddle on the pad. You may even want to do that to the top of the saddle between you and the seat if you are worried about marking soft leather. It won't impede the feel any.
Be respectful and only take a ride long enough to know if you are happy in it. There was one girl use a brand new saddle in an hour long lesson and then didn't want it. It was all marked up and dirty...:mad: She was completely oblivious about what she had done, despite having received clear instructions.
Customer service is key. Bad service should not be tolerated. Unless the people rolling their eyes and sighing at you were the owner, then you need to tell the owner what happened to you.
If one shop won't treat you well, find another one that will. These days, good help is horribly hard to find. (note to those looking for work in a tack shop; Develop good, solid skills and you will not be out of a job anytime soon)
To those of you who are lucky enough to have a good shop nearby with good service, help support them.
Because the main reason there are so few independant shops now is because so many of them are gone because of the internet and the huge retailers who lowball the snot out of everything. And yes, manufacturers who sell at a huge discount off the wholesale to these places are part and parcel of the problem.
Manufacturers sometimes pull bulls**t moves on their customers too. I would bet that Horseloverz placed the order, and was told by Tucker to straighten up and get in line with national pricing. Legal? Probably not, but it happens...a lot.
We had a well known shoe manufacturer that we carried, high end stuff. We put two or three pairs up on ebay, at regular list price mind you, to get exposure. Two days later there was a phone call that our account was suspended until we made corrections.
Huh?
A call to them revealed that although they did not have ANYTHING at all in the signed contract between us and them prohibiting selling on ebay, and even though they were advertised at list, they said they had an 'unwritten policy' (meaning illegal as hell) that they would not allow their shoes to be sold like that.
(worth noting, at the time there were about 20 different sellers who had them at wholesale too, the rep told us they couldn't locate them so they couldn't stop them)
Unbeliveable.
I don't know this as a fact, but I would not be surprised to find that Tucker is one of those companies that engages in a rigorous policy of price policing and the shop ran afoul of it.
Like I said before, I can see and sympathize with both sides.

bambam

Oct. 12, 2009, 12:05 PM

I"Truth in advertising" only applies to price if when you get to the cash register (i.e. the shopping cart) a different price or item is displayed.
You simply cannot make that kind of blanket statement. The consumer protection laws vary widely from state to state and some of them are incredibly (frighteningly IMO) broad.

artisticgold

Oct. 12, 2009, 01:16 PM

Well, Y'all,

here's an update. Someone here posted that the owner of the company is at QH Congress at the Horseloverz booth, so instead of dealing with an underling that has no power to make decision, I called the company today, said I needed to speak to someone at their booth at Congress about an item I had purchased, and they gave me the owner's cell phone number. I called and spoke to John, and outlined what had happened, and that I was very disappointed with the whole experience, how I'd dealt with them for years with very good results, spending hundreds of dollars and even recommending them to all my horse friends, and how I was sure that with his help we could get a good resolution to this problem. I also mentioned that the COTH board would be waiting to see what this was resolved, hopefully to my satisfaction, as there are a lot of potential customers reading this. He was very nice, explained that Tucker is very strict about pricing, and perhaps those were demo saddles or whatever, and they had been sold (there were 6 of them noted in the original ad), and he would speak with someone and get back to me this week, as he's leaving for Europe next week. He asked me to send him a copy of the invoice,, which I did, which showed paid in full, and I again gave him the situation in writing. Sooooooo, we shall see how this all plays out. He said that they try very hard to ensure customer satisfaction, and he would do his best to work out a solution, and I told him I was sure that we could work this out...Fingers crossed...stay tuned....

MsRidiculous

Oct. 12, 2009, 01:46 PM

If they "try very hard" at customer satisfaction, they need to try harder. They need to get more people processing orders and shipping stuff out. I've ordered from them twice and both times it took 5-7 days for them to process the order and 2-3 weeks for me to actually recieve anything. The first time I actually sent 2 emails asking the status of my order and never got a reply. In the last package, which took 3 weeks to arrive, one item was missing. It was listed on the invoice but wasn't in the box. Since it was only a $3 item I just wrote it off as a lost cause since that was easier than trying to deal with them. 2 weeks later I get another shipping notice from them in my email, and low and behold the item did eventually show up - 6 weeks after I originally ordered it.

Given those experiences and everyone else's, I won't be ordering from them again. I'd rather pay more $$ and shop somewhere like Smartpak that has excellent customer service and quick turnaround.

naters

Oct. 12, 2009, 01:54 PM

Mendin Fences

Oct. 12, 2009, 02:32 PM

He said that they try very hard to ensure customer satisfaction, and he would do his best to work out a solution, and I told him I was sure that we could work this out...Fingers crossed...stay tuned....

Wow, that's awesome :D I'm glad he was so helpful, maybe this will be a motivating factor in promoting better customer service from his company.

PaddyUK

Oct. 12, 2009, 02:45 PM

I'm surprised the Horseloverz rep hasn't replied yet - Marie is it?

Anyhow Horseloverz also run a UK ebay shop.

Needless to say, after reading the many threads on here about poor service etc, neither I or any of my friends will be ordering anything from them!

Paddy

cloudyandcallie

Oct. 12, 2009, 03:01 PM

cloudyandcallie

Oct. 12, 2009, 03:24 PM

If you don't get your saddle by the time John leaves for europe, be sure to write his cell # on every men's bathroom wall in your city (or nearest metro area) and add the words "for a good time call John.":lol:

PaddyUK

Oct. 12, 2009, 03:37 PM

I see the price on HL site is now $1,479.10 - or £900 over here.

Paddy

shalomypony

Oct. 12, 2009, 08:11 PM

I'm glad you took my advice and spoke directly to him.I would be shocked if he didn't do all he can to rectify the situation.Please keep me posted.

artisticgold

Oct. 12, 2009, 08:16 PM

Thanks, shalo,

I appreciate it...I'm anxiously awaiting word!

cloudyandcallie,

hysterical!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! Hopefully I won't have to resort to those tactics! LOL

avezan

Oct. 13, 2009, 07:28 AM

Mav226

Oct. 13, 2009, 07:32 AM

There was one girl use a brand new saddle in an hour long lesson and then didn't want it.

I don't think riding in ONE lesson is outrageous at all! I also think it's ridiculous to think people are going to be cutting up socks and sheets just to try a saddle. Many tack shops have one "trial saddle" in each size (which is sold at the end of every season).

If I was that "one girl" and a shop owner threw a hissy fit about ONE lesson on a saddle I'd taken for a trial---I would never, ever, ever give him/her my business again. And I would make sure everyone in creation knew exactly how poor their customer service was.

gloriginger

Oct. 13, 2009, 08:04 AM

I knew John way back when he worked for a big operation. He was always a wheeler dealer and I got some great deals from him. When I heard about Equiteric in Hazelton, it did not take long to figure out that he was in charge. So, I'm going to make a pretty educated guess on what happened here based on the original information and the phone call. HL had some closeouts/scratch and dents, whatever, deals on these saddles. They had 6 of them listed for sale. By the time the OP placed her order, all 6 of them had been sold. The way HL's system works, it sounds like they charge first, ask questions later. When they realized they were out of the saddles, they called Tucker to try to get another one, and found that their advertised price was BELOW wholesale. So, of course they can't get another for the OP. Easiest thing to do is refund her money and say, sorry, we aren't allowed to sell the new ones that low.

So, here is what you should do the next time you talk to John. Ask him to sell you the saddle at cost. Explain the situation (which you already have), and say this will make you happy and make up for not getting one of the closeout saddles. You will get a new saddle with no flaws at HL's cost. I'm not familiar with the saddles, but if they were advertising them at half of retail, their cost will be significantly above that. This is why they can't get you the saddle. Not the manufacturer's guidelines...the manufacturer's price!! Good luck.

And I don't buy the whole "they deal in such large volumes that sometimes this happens" I am not by any stretch an computer geek- but if TOTD can have simple counter on their website that allows customers to know when they have sold out of items, is it really that much to expect the same from horselovrz? In addition to their crappy service, in this situation, and many oher peoples, they have taken this womans money and are holding on to it. In the finance world- the company would be expected to pay interest on that money. It is absolutely unaccpetable to do business the way they do.

Tiffani B

Oct. 13, 2009, 08:53 AM

they have taken this womans money and are holding on to it.

Um, no they aren't. They refunded it immediately. The CREDIT CARD company is the one who hasn't posted the credit to her account. They take it coming AND going.

equineartworks

Oct. 13, 2009, 09:00 AM

I think cloudyandcallie shared the best advice. No, it is not legal. However OP you were given a refund and an apology. The ball is in your court as to what you want to do.

Make a stink, or no stink. Depends on how bad you want that saddle. :winkgrin:

artisticgold

Oct. 13, 2009, 10:43 AM

Well, they may have sold the 6 saddles at that price, and not had any more to sell, I really don't know. However, they aren't saying they DON'T have them, they are saying they WON'T sell me one for the price I paid. That may be a different issue from selling out and not having them....They still have them advertised on the site for the full retail price.

Hello Nadine,
I am sorry, but the order for the Tucker River Plantation Saddle has been cancelled. There was a pricing error with the saddle when the order was placed. The manufacturer will not allow us to sell it for that price. The full refund of $++++++ has been refunded to your credit card using the transaction id#+++++++++++++. I do apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. Have a good weekend.

P.S. Please keep above message attached if you reply, so there is a point of reference.

Thank you for choosing HorseLoverz.com
Best Regards,
Carrie Blue

Customer Service
Hours: Monday-Friday 9am-5pm EST.
Sign up for our Deal of the Day Newsletter:
http://www.horseloverz.com/Join-Our-DEALS-of-the-DAY-Newsletter-p-5.html

Lady Counselor

Oct. 13, 2009, 11:11 AM

I don't think riding in ONE lesson is outrageous at all! I also think it's ridiculous to think people are going to be cutting up socks and sheets just to try a saddle. Many tack shops have one "trial saddle" in each size (which is sold at the end of every season).

If I was that "one girl" and a shop owner threw a hissy fit about ONE lesson on a saddle I'd taken for a trial---I would never, ever, ever give him/her my business again. And I would make sure everyone in creation knew exactly how poor their customer service was.

Ah, but many small shops DON'T have 'trial saddles' to loan out.
Do you know how many seat sizes, tree sizes and twists you would need to have access to? Some manufacturers do have trial programs, but it's not always quick or easy to get the saddle in for the customer.
If you are given CLEAR instructions as to the terms of a trial, you should abide by it, not blow it off and do whatever you want.
Cutting up an old sheet or socks is NOT unreasonable to ask of someone wanting to try a saddle. Did you see the earlier post about the girl who was told she couldn't do more than sit in it on the horse WITHOUT a girth? That's not realistic.
Where do you think the shops got guidelines on how to try saddles without marking them up?
From the manufacturers.
Returning one marked up, and with dried muddy sweat on it is NOT acceptable, not when the saddle left the shop with tags on it, no marks and a cover, and comes back stained, marked, and tags missing.
If YOU were the next person in to be interested in buying that saddle, what would YOUR reaction be seeing marks on it?
Somehow I would bet you're going to start complaining that it's a used saddle and how dare we ask new pricing for it.
It's not fair or reasonable that a small shop potentially lose hundreds on a saddle because someone damaged it on trial and now it has to be sold as a demo or used.
And, BTW, the owner did not throw a 'hissy fit' to the customer, although thank you for projecting and judging based on nothing. :rolleyes:

Keep1Belle

Oct. 13, 2009, 11:23 AM

drmgncolor

Oct. 13, 2009, 12:05 PM

sublimequine

Oct. 13, 2009, 12:30 PM

I am quite interested in the outcome of this thread, OP. I have been very outspoken on here on the HORRIBLE customer service I received. One rep admitted she ignored my emails and when I spoke to a different rep twice on the phone, she claimed she had no recollection of speaking to me the first time. Sheesh. After everything I went through, to make up for their screw up, they offered me a 10% off coupon. I never used it.

I am really surprised Maria hasn't shown up. However, good for you OP to go straight to the top!

I hope they make this right for you. It might, might make me maybe (just maybe) try shopping with them again. But I doubt it. :D

FWIW, I work for a large retail company in Customer Service and if we price things in error, I honor that price or offer a good enough discount to make the customer happy.

Exactly! Even if you can't offer the customer the "error price" (because the manufacturer won't allow it or whatever), you should ALWAYS offer some sort of alternative solution. Equiteric never does that. It's always, "Sorry can't do that. Here's your money back."

I work at a tack store when I'm home (college student), and if a customer finds something mismarked or somehow the price is TOTALLY wrong, we always try and make up some sort of solution that keeps the customer happy. "So sorry, that seems to be priced wrong, but how about 15% off?". At least let the customer know you'll TRY to work with them! :yes:

analise

Oct. 13, 2009, 01:25 PM

This just sounds crazy and I hope the OP ends up getting her saddle but I did want to say:

I've ordered from Horseloverz several times now. Once, I got my items within two days of placing the order. I ordered in the evening, got the shipping notification the afternoon of the next day, and it was on my doorstep the morning the day after that. Yeah, I was shocked, too.

My most recent ordering experience with them, I had my items within 10 days of ordering, which I still see as reasonable, especially since I called before I got the shipping notification and asked if I could make a change to my order (I realized I needed a different sized girth from the one I'd ordered). They did it, no questions asked, and I still got my items (all correct) within a reasonable time frame.

So when I hear people say how terrible HL is, I have to say, I find myself having a hard time believing it. Maybe I'm just lucky, so far. :)

I will also say, if you want a physical tack store that really caters to their customer, check out Maryland Tack up in Woodbine, MD. They really helped me when I was a shopping for a saddle and though I did, actually, intend to buy from them, a series of interesting events came up and I ended up purchasing a saddle from someone on the Bits and Barter board. But MD Tack is still really awesome and I'd recommend them to anybody. :)

artisticgold

Oct. 15, 2009, 09:06 AM

Well, here's the update....

John got back to me yesterday, and apologized for what he said was a computer error, and said that the best he could do on the saddle that I purchased for $700 was to give it to me for $1190. I told him that was more than I was willing to spend, and simply couldn't pay that much for it. He was really nice, and I asked him about a saddle that I had been considering along with the Tucker, an Abetta Serenity (formerly called the Trinity) Endurance saddle. He called a friend at the Abetta factory, and can sell me one for about $100 less than the cheapest price I can find. Soooo, I'm very tempted to just take the deal since the saddle is so cheap, BUT I haven't sat in one, and don't know if they have a wide or narrow twist and how it will fit my horse. I NEED a narrow twist with a very cushy seat due to sacroiliac problems, along with neck/back issues and fibro. I guess I could always sell it if it doesn't turn out to be right for me, as I'd be getting it cheap enough not to lose money....I'm torn on this one, as I had decided the Tucker Plantation with it's narrow twist was going to be the right saddle for me. The Abetta will be easier to swing it up on a horse as it's considerably lighter, so pros and cons both ways. Or maybe I should just pass and wait until a nice used Tucker comes along???

John was very nice, patient, and trying to work something out with me, and although I could probably still raise a fuss about this, I don't have the heart right now to be a witch about it, and cause trouble. Life is too short to be angry.....

vxf111

Oct. 15, 2009, 09:18 AM

Isn't he a good salesman? THEY made an error and now he's talked you into potentially giving him MORE money than you planned.

nightsong

Oct. 15, 2009, 01:48 PM

Wow, that's awesome :D I'm glad he was so helpful, maybe this will be a motivating factor in promoting better customer service from his company.

Actually, he WASN'T helpful on the phone that first time; didn't fix anything; didn't even PROMISE anything. Just said a lot of meaningless but pleasant-sounding stuff that made the caller go away, placated. Second call ALSO placated, without honoring the contract. He IS good.

And has the original poster's money actually been refunded?

MHM

Oct. 15, 2009, 02:07 PM

I could probably still raise a fuss about this, I don't have the heart right now to be a witch about it, and cause trouble.

I don't understand this sentiment. At all.

How does an expectation of decent customer service equal being a witch?

It seems like you've done a complete 180 since this started, even though they still haven't honored your original transaction. :confused:

ESG

Oct. 15, 2009, 02:09 PM

I knew John way back when he worked for a big operation. He was always a wheeler dealer and I got some great deals from him. When I heard about Equiteric in Hazelton, it did not take long to figure out that he was in charge. So, I'm going to make a pretty educated guess on what happened here based on the original information and the phone call. HL had some closeouts/scratch and dents, whatever, deals on these saddles. They had 6 of them listed for sale. By the time the OP placed her order, all 6 of them had been sold. The way HL's system works, it sounds like they charge first, ask questions later. When they realized they were out of the saddles, they called Tucker to try to get another one, and found that their advertised price was BELOW wholesale. So, of course they can't get another for the OP. Easiest thing to do is refund her money and say, sorry, we aren't allowed to sell the new ones that low.

So, here is what you should do the next time you talk to John. Ask him to sell you the saddle at cost. Explain the situation (which you already have), and say this will make you happy and make up for not getting one of the closeout saddles. You will get a new saddle with no flaws at HL's cost. I'm not familiar with the saddles, but if they were advertising them at half of retail, their cost will be significantly above that. This is why they can't get you the saddle. Not the manufacturer's guidelines...the manufacturer's price!! Good luck.

Exactly. :yes:

Personally, I love Horseloverz and have had nothing but good experiences with them. Through MANY eBay transactions as well as from their online store, I've gotten decent quality items for very reasonable prices.

Even though it's a PITA for the OP, the above is very common with any large retailer, on eBay or anywhere else. Just think about any time you've gotten a rain check from a store sold out of an advertised sale item, if you don't believe that.

Best of luck to the OP in getting a saddle at cost. Sounds to me like the most equitable way to resolve the situation. :cool:

ETA: Just read of the second conversation. Although it's not exactly what you wanted, it was nice of him to give you ANY sort of discount and him taking a hit on the price along with it. I don't think you can fault him for trying, just as no one can fault you for not being able to afford the saddle at the price he suggested. In your shoes, I'd probably pony up the extra if it is indeed "the" saddle for you. If not, try the one he suggested and if it doesn't work, send it back.

JMO.

shalomypony

Oct. 15, 2009, 02:14 PM

I would probably take the Abetta and if it didn't suit me,I'd sell it at a profit and search for a good used Tucker.Good lluck!

drmgncolor

Oct. 15, 2009, 02:25 PM

Although it's not exactly what you wanted, it was nice of him to give you ANY sort of discount and him taking a hit on the price along with it.

Yes and No. While he is offering a discount to try and make her happy, they did charge her credit card, which constitutes a sale! They should honor the price they originally charged her card for. Period. It's not like it's going to break them to do the right thing here... make a customer happy who will in turn be a return shopper and tell others about the awesome customer service she received. Sorry, but to me this is NOT awesome customer service.

If I were in his shoes (as the owner of the company) I would honor the sale, chalk it up to a learning experience and be more on top of my pricing in the future. Maybe it's my sourpuss attitude towards the company in the first place that has me thinking this way, but this is a big board and there are lots of hits on this thread already...

cloudyandcallie

Oct. 15, 2009, 02:58 PM

Yes and No. While he is offering a discount to try and make her happy, they did charge her credit card, which constitutes a sale! They should honor the price they originally charged her card for. Period. It's not like it's going to break them to do the right thing here... make a customer happy who will in turn be a return shopper and tell others about the awesome customer service she received. Sorry, but to me this is NOT awesome customer service.

If I were in his shoes (as the owner of the company) I would honor the sale, chalk it up to a learning experience and be more on top of my pricing in the future. Maybe it's my sourpuss attitude towards the company in the first place that has me thinking this way, but this is a big board and there are lots of hits on this thread already...

I agree. Remember, OP and horseloverz had a contract, her consideration was paid, then they tried to cancel the sale, uh, no, it was time for specific performance by horseloverz. She should contact the FTC, look under US govt in phone book. And every other state consumer agency there. The "right" thing to do is for horseloverz to send OP the saddle that she wants, explain the situation to the manufacturer, and apologize to all concerned. This was a contract for a specific kind of saddle at a specific price, so if they want OP to settle their breach of contract for a different saddle, they should offer her the other saddle at the same price. Not very classy act by horseloverz at all.
I'd turn him in to every agency I could find in my state and to every federal agency. And I'd call the manufacturer and tell their rep about this thread. Maybe someone can light a fire under him before he flees to europe.

Hmmmmm, I bet if some of us cothers all emailed or called the saddle manufacturer, they might do something? Worth a shot.

Luckydonkey

Oct. 15, 2009, 03:16 PM

I would wait until a nice use tucker came along...

elctrnc

Oct. 15, 2009, 03:29 PM

I would wait until a nice use tucker came along...

Exactly. Why don't you buy a used one? There are a few on ebay right now.

Would this really be such an issue if this was any other store? Seems to me that everyone is jumping on the "I hate Horseloverz" bandwagon. What if this was one of the "favored" tack shops? Would the pitchforks really have come out in such force? I can't imagine so.

Stores run out of items. I have been charged for an item, only to find out the store didn't have it. I got a refund. It happens. Sure, it sucks that you aren't getting a new Tucker for more than half off the regular price. That would have been the deal of the century.

drmgncolor

Oct. 15, 2009, 06:31 PM

Would this really be such an issue if this was any other store? Seems to me that everyone is jumping on the "I hate Horseloverz" bandwagon. What if this was one of the "favored" tack shops? Would the pitchforks really have come out in such force? I can't imagine so.

Yes, I believe this still would be an issue regardless of the store. But alas, it isn't. It's a company that has questionable CS to begin with, so yes, they are going to catch some grief. What they did might be legal (idk) but it's definitely unethical.

There are plenty of people who have come out and defended Horseloverz/Equiteric, (on this and other threads) so obviously they do have a following. However, if they really want to become one of those "favorable" stores, they need to bump up their CS a notch or ten.

OP, FWIW. I would just walk away. I would keep your eye out for a good used Tucker and never do business with this company again. Just make sure you tell everyone about your great experiences with H/E and how they made their mistake right. (insert roll eyes emoticon)

elctrnc

Oct. 15, 2009, 06:49 PM

It's a company that has questionable CS to begin with, so yes, they are going to catch some grief. What they did might be legal (idk) but it's definitely unethical.

I guess I don't see how *this* incident is unethical. There was no bait-and-switch. The money was refunded. Now, certainly other people's experience with this particular store have sounded questionable. To me, *this* incident sounds like a computer mistake. Once again, if this was one of the favored stores (and I don't want to name anyone in particular, because I don't want them to be connected to this type of thread), I bet most people would be calling it a "mistake" rather than "unethical."

*shrug*

saultgirl

Oct. 15, 2009, 09:06 PM

I guess I don't see how *this* incident is unethical. There was no bait-and-switch. The money was refunded. Now, certainly other people's experience with this particular store have sounded questionable. To me, *this* incident sounds like a computer mistake. Once again, if this was one of the favored stores (and I don't want to name anyone in particular, because I don't want them to be connected to this type of thread), I bet most people would be calling it a "mistake" rather than "unethical."

*shrug*

Mistake or not, they've been called on it and should be sucking it up. That's good business.

Huntertwo

Oct. 15, 2009, 09:24 PM

My best friend owns a tack shop and her biggest pet peeve is a" customer" like you who comes in, tries a saddle, comes back to try it AGAIN, and then orders it from some on line outfit. Give me a break.

Agree - I have a *real life* tack store that I go to at times. And some of he stories she has told me are unreal.

She consigns a lot of stuff and told me the number of people who will "try" out something for the day, only to find out they had a show, used her items and returned them. :no:

I have no problem going for the lowest price, but it is pretty tacky to waste a shop owner's time, expertise, etc. when you know darn well you're not going to be buying it from them.

drmgncolor

Oct. 15, 2009, 09:29 PM

I guess I don't see how *this* incident is unethical. There was no bait-and-switch. The money was refunded. I bet most people would be calling it a "mistake" rather than "unethical."

Bait-and-switch is irrelevant here since there was no alternative offered until the OP made a stink. H/E TOOK her money THEN figured out THEIR mistake and basically said, "Just kidding, here's your refund." That, to me, is unethical business.

I agree saultgirl, they should be sucking it up.

nightsong

Oct. 15, 2009, 11:49 PM

Even though it's a PITA for the OP, the above is very common with any large retailer, on eBay or anywhere else. Just think about any time you've gotten a rain check from a store sold out of an advertised sale item, if you don't believe that.

Um, a "rain check" is where they sell you the item at the advertised price although it's no longer in stock, but you can't actually HAVE it until the store gets more in. Exactly the OPPOSITE of what they've done to O.P.

Yip

Oct. 16, 2009, 01:57 AM

What IS illegal is the manufacturer telling a reseller what price they can/cannot sell a product for. They can dictate what price an item is ADVERTISED for but legally they cannot dictate the SELLING price. A vendor can be restricted from advertising a sale price, and would have to put "call for price" or something on their site, but the manufacturer cannot tell them what they must sell it for. That we have had our lawyers research several times, due to manufacturers trying to play that game with us over the decades.

This has been going on with other mfgrs. in the horse equipment industry too. Years ago I heard of OM boots and several of the big expensive blanket makers price fixing.

Maybe it is not legal and you can really sell products for any price you like. What happens next is not illegal though. The co. refuses to sell to the shop & they lose their distributorship. Since the more expensive name brands tend to advertise and draw a good customer base, a shop would have to knuckle under in order to not lose that business. Horseloverz/Equiteric had to make the choice - disappoint one customer or lose the Tucker distributorship. Guess who loses?!

trubandloki

Oct. 16, 2009, 08:31 AM

elctrnc

Oct. 16, 2009, 04:46 PM

Bait-and-switch is irrelevant here since there was no alternative offered until the OP made a stink. H/E TOOK her money THEN figured out THEIR mistake and basically said, "Just kidding, here's your refund." That, to me, is unethical business.

I agree saultgirl, they should be sucking it up.

There would be no reason for a store to take staff time to process a payment and then more time refund a payment. There is no gain for the store in this situation....and really, it's a loss considering they are paying their staff for the time dealing with the situation. I guess that is why I don't see it as unethical.

elctrnc

Oct. 16, 2009, 04:55 PM

Honestly, I do not think one of the better tack shops would cause this problem. I am sure they do make mistakes too but they fix them quickly and leave the customer not feeling like they have been $crewed over. That is why they are the favorite tack places.

The store did fix the problem quickly--they refunded her money. I understand the disappointment of not getting a new saddle for more than half of the regular price, but I don't see how the OP was "screwed over." Bummed out, yes.

cloudyandcallie

Oct. 16, 2009, 05:01 PM

Once again: this was a legal contract. consideration passed. OP can sue and demand specific performance for a specific type of saddle, not as unique as real estate, but still the saddle that she paid for.

And all states and the federal government have laws preventing exactly what the store did here. (ANd I'd give the same advice if this was done by either Dover or SmartPak, 2 of my favorite stores, but then they wouldn't do this to a customer.) Op probably won't sue in small claims, where she would not need a lawyer, and she probably won't turn the store in to the feds and to the commonwealth of PA, which should have a consumer fraud division that she can contact, but I think that if the store is allowed to get away with this now, it might continue to do so.

equinelaw

Oct. 16, 2009, 05:39 PM

OP also lost the chance to buy the other saddle since she thought she had bought one.

What if after saving so much on the saddle she ordered $500 worth of other stuff too? Would it not be seen as unethical to lead someone into your store to sell them other stuff and then back out of the item that drew them in?

It was a mistake, but its still the business who should eat the consequences of their mistake. They had a contract, they breached the contract, they have to put her where she would have been if the contract was fulfilled. Refunding her money did not do that--it put her back where she started. And because its too expensive for her to assert her rights, they can just keep doing that all they want. It does not make the behavior acceptable, its just too expensive for a consumer to do anything about it. Its just plain old contract law and contracts are just a way to make people do what they promised to do. This company did not fulfill their promise. She did.