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florida foxhunter
Oct. 8, 2009, 09:35 AM
I haven't been to many A shows this summer and fall, due to the economy. So I'm out of touch a bit........Here in FL, most "show horses" (or pregreen prospects) sell in the fall or during the winter circuit.....
Just wondering on what the pulse is these days? What do you expect for the next six months?
If you had to guess on a % of prices being reduced from the "good ole days".....what would it be, or do you think yesterday's prices are holding for a really fancy hunter or hunter prospect?

SidesaddleRider
Oct. 8, 2009, 12:36 PM
I've had a huge upsurge in interest in the past month, for both the experienced and prospect horses. I sold 1 (experienced) horse last week, and have another (experienced) horse getting a 2nd look this weekend, so fingers crossed there! My fancy pre-green prospect has 3 people waiting to see her (she is healing from a kick, sigh).

I had a dealer call me last night to set up an appt for one horse, and was also asking what show horses I had, as she had 2 different buyers looking for one (1 person had up to $40k, the other $75k).

So things are picking up, but prices are definately more "budget friendly" than they were before.

TPF
Oct. 8, 2009, 08:46 PM
Things have been busy if the horses are priced well.
People are realizing they can buy the same horse for about 50% the value it had a few years ago - so yes things are selling but not for the prices they were in the past.
People figure they will just shop around until they find someone desperate to sell - and there are lots of those people out there!
For example, we were selling good 3'0" Childrens/Adult Hunters for $60-80K a few years ago and now they are selling in the $35-50K range. Everyone is taking a hit.
We live in Florida too and have traffic all year round - I think it is actually easier to sell to the Florida barns than waiting for the out of towners to arrive - then the market gets flooded - everyone has something to sell!
I think it is still easier to sell the prospect - you are selling the dream it may someday be that special "one" - but there are less people wanting to invest in a horse for a professional to show - they want to show it themselves.

maxxtrot
Oct. 8, 2009, 08:47 PM
i had clients here last weekend, two kids looking, and have gotten 5 new orders just this week. have someone looking at a pony tomorrow.and waiting on the results of a vetting on another. so, i think it is starting to pickup a bit. but i too agree prices are more buyer friendly.

TPF
Oct. 8, 2009, 08:53 PM
I just tried to call you about people I had coming too!! ha ha great minds think alike - give me a call.

hopefarmnj
Oct. 8, 2009, 09:16 PM
I do have to say, the four figure horse market has just about come to a screeching halt. We can't give our horses away.

dags
Oct. 9, 2009, 11:43 AM
Agreed, we've had a huge pick up in the past month. Sold two in the past 2 weeks, have a PPE scheduled for Monday, and I've totally lost track of how many people have told me they have had trials scheduled/occured in the past month. And that doesn't include the stack of buyers on my desk that we didn't have something for, there are at least 4 or 5 six figure inquiries in there.

In some instances prices have come way down, other instances not so much. The truly good horses still cost an arm and a leg, the price might have come down a bit but no one's going to make a steal on them. On the other hand, the useful, quasi-good, and 3' limited horses have come down significantly. Ponies are still hurting, I've seen the biggest price reductions in that range, but again, the truly good ones still aren't cheap.

Recently compiled a report on various statistics we've accumulated over the summer. Data only went through August 31st and doesn't include this most recent surge:
http://exchangehj.typepad.com/modernequine/2009/09/statistical-look-at-current-equine-sales-market-exchange-report-to-sellers.html

Oakstable
Oct. 9, 2009, 11:52 AM
Dags.
Fascinating information. Thank you for posting.

dags
Oct. 9, 2009, 12:16 PM
Dags.
Fascinating information. Thank you for posting.

Thanks! I'm such a nerd :D

Lkramer
Oct. 9, 2009, 12:47 PM
For the quality show horses that have loads of experience, I think their prices are staying somewhat true. Most of my clients are not effected by the economy, so luckily there is still somewhat of a market left. Prospects are very difficult to sell for me. Many people expect you to sell for half price just because the market is down, and assume anyone selling anything is having a "fire sale."

I did have someone fly out yesterday looking for a big eq horse for under 50, and I had to roll my eyes a little bit.

Coppers mom
Oct. 9, 2009, 01:56 PM
If the horses are priced at what they're worth, not some ridiculous inflated price because of who's barn they're in, they're selling. I haven't noticed any price range being hit very hard, but then, we price them fairly for what they are. None of our horses sit around for very long because of this (because, let's face it, finally getting 20K after two years isn't going to make you a lot of money), and we've had several instances where the buyer notes how spot on the price is.

Claudius
Oct. 9, 2009, 09:52 PM
If I wanted a very fancy big pregreen horse that will stand out in the crowd, what will I have to consider paying??

maxxtrot
Oct. 9, 2009, 09:56 PM
with a show record and a piece of the hack, i'd say somewhere around 60-80k. maybe more depending on where you are looking.

dags
Oct. 9, 2009, 11:29 PM
If I wanted a very fancy big pregreen horse that will stand out in the crowd, what will I have to consider paying??

That's pretty vague, definitions of fancy vary wildly, especially in seller claims :) Likewise, proven vs. unproven - that darn show record again, will play a huge roll.

Let's say 16.3h chestnut WB with a lovely blaze and four great socks, a stunning mover, easy step and good, promising form over 3', and hasn't been seen trying to kill someone:
- At a decent but non big name barn, possibly inhibited by geographic location, casual show record but hasn't seen the likes of florida (or florida worthy) competition, $60-90k is probably the sale price, though original asking price I bet was more. The better it's shown, the more accessible it is, the higher up in that range it will be.

Take that same horse, get him to florida (or the like) and prove he's as fancy as you say he is, or plop him in a well-trafficed big name barn, they still want 6 figures for that one.

But you're talking "fancy", so I'm talking cream of the crop. It used to be that any decent pregreen horse started at $125K and that's not the case anymore. The "decent" pregreen horses, still quality mounts, still winners in fair company, but not world beaters, those are the ones that have come down in price, starting at $75K (some still start at 90-85K), sometimes selling as low as $40K, depending on all those aforementioned variables.

DancingQueen
Oct. 10, 2009, 12:34 AM
I find ponies for the short stirrup and prechildrens to be a much harder sale. We've seen a lot of horses sell this summer and fall and also some childrens ponies. Theese buyers are gettin their second or third horse they are used to paying board and want to show a lot. Horses go for a lot less then they did though. We can shop around 75K and get the same horses that were selling for buck twentyfive a year and a half ago.

It's harder to sell the first pony though then it was a few years ago. New parents are just not ready to take on the commitment of board right now even if the ponies are practically giveaways and pushbuttons in the short and pres.

maxxtrot
Oct. 10, 2009, 11:25 AM
just had another order for a w/t s.s. pony come in this morning, so it does appear to be picking up :)

hluing
Oct. 13, 2009, 07:33 PM
I've noticed several Ocala people on here and wondered if anyone had any advice on where to market or who to talk to about selling, young, fancy ponies. I am a dressage rider and breeder of GRP's. I have a couple that look like great hunters. Any advice?

eventerchick517
Oct. 13, 2009, 08:08 PM
How about you send some of your pony buyers up my way?:yes: I've got a pony with GREAT form and you couldn't get him to stop no matter how hard you tried. But still nobody is interested.:( The price is right too....quite a bit cheaper than anything else like him I've seen!

dags
Oct. 14, 2009, 11:15 AM
Informed of two more sales yesterday, that's 4 just this month with a total just south of $.5 million. Pony went out on trial two days ago and still waiting to hear about the PPE that occured monday. Seems like the season is wrapping up with a more optimistic look to the future than last year.

Jumphigh83
Oct. 14, 2009, 06:57 PM
From Ocala.com FYI...

Economy affects horse sale

By Fred Hiers
Staff writer

Published: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 10:36 a.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 10:36 a.m.

The local horse industry continued to feel the pinch of the recession Monday as sales prices continued to slide at the Ocala Breeders' Sales Company 2009 Fall Mixed Sale.

For the first day of the two-day session, 132 horses sold for $1,467,900, compared with 106 horses grossing $1,931,600 at the corresponding session a year ago.

The average sales price was $11,120 compared with $18,223 in 2008. The median price was $6,000 compared with $12,000 a year ago. The buyback percentage was 40.3 percent. It was 53 percent a year ago.

Hip No. 197, a weanling colt by Jazil consigned by Barry Menefee, agent, went to Baccari Bloodstock for $77,000 to top the Consignor Preferred session of the sale. The bay colt is out of Pelicus Affair, by Pentelicus, a half sister to graded stakes winner Pine Dance.

Hip No. 57, a weanling filly by Yes It’s True consigned by Summerfield (Francis & Barbara Vanlangendonck), agent, was sold to Twin Peaks Racing for $52,000. The chestnut filly is out of graded stakes placed City College, by Carson City, and is a half sister to stakes placed Trinity College.

The OBS Fall Mixed Sale concludes Tuesday, with an open session beginning at 10:30 a.m.

kimball1
Oct. 14, 2009, 10:44 PM
Stock market over 10,000 today, that is a big psychological barrier for some people. Laissez les bon-temps again.

maxxtrot
Oct. 14, 2009, 11:28 PM
big horse sold today, and have orders coming in everyday. having trouble finding horses in my area to fit the orders :) guess that's a good thing.

snaffle635
Oct. 14, 2009, 11:34 PM
Informed of two more sales yesterday, that's 4 just this month with a total just south of $.5 million. Pony went out on trial two days ago and still waiting to hear about the PPE that occured monday. Seems like the season is wrapping up with a more optimistic look to the future than last year.

dags, you are becoming my favorite poster. Thanks for the insightful analysis you published earlier.

chunky munky
Oct. 14, 2009, 11:51 PM
Stock market over 10,000 today, that is a big psychological barrier for some people. Laissez les bon-temps again.

Laissez bon temps roulez.

jmvwiv
Oct. 15, 2009, 08:41 AM
big horse sold today, and have orders coming in everyday. having trouble finding horses in my area to fit the orders :) guess that's a good thing.

What are you getting orders for predominantly?

maxxtrot
Oct. 15, 2009, 04:28 PM
forever 2"6 packers. for kids moving up to the 2"6 or for someone timid looking for the quiet,packer type. leases and sales, also have had a couple of people looking forponies, med and larges.couple of eventing horses,two low level dressage horses,a 3ft local hunter, and two 3 ft jumpers.i don't sell the big dollar horses, i am the queen of the 5-15k horses:)
but every once in awhile i do sell bigger dollar horses and ponies, just depends on the orders.

Kaleigh007
Oct. 16, 2009, 01:27 PM
Talking with a BNT the other day and he said "The $300,000 horses of 2 years ago are now the $100,000 horses of today".

dags
Oct. 16, 2009, 01:44 PM
Talking with a BNT the other day and he said "The $300,000 horses of 2 years ago are now the $100,000 horses of today".

Kind of, the real-deals are still $300K, the ones that can make it over a 3'6" course in fair fashion are the ones that got the giant reality check.

Similarly, the $125K Childrens Hunter is now $80K.
The $60,000 Childrens Hunter is now $40K or less.
The $150K Pregreen horse is anywhere from $75 - 125K.
Baby Greens dropped from 90-125K to 45-75K.
Very nice ponies are going for 50K. They used to start at 75K. Fancy ponies can be seen from 75-150K now, instead of 250/300K.
Your basic 3'6" hunter/eq/useful beast can now be had from 40-65K. Previously 80-100K+.
Talented 3 yos are looking at 35K, not 50K.

Anything aged, ugly or with soundness problems is likely seeing a 4 figure or very low 5 figure tag. Finally. Some of those beasts were actually moving for 50K a few years ago.

Quality hunters, real world beaters, may have had some adjustment in value but not a ton.

The Dow is up and so are our sales, interest and site traffic. My report (previously posted, thanks Snaffles!) cited our lowest month of traffic last year as correllating with a crash in the Dow. The coincidence is uncanny and speaks volumes. Our little equisphere is not so removed from the rest of the markets it seems.


Received an order for two ponies yesterday, mid 5 and mid-high 5 prices, a medium and a large, buyers willing and ready to travel. We have had two outstanding weeks as the dow built up to 10K.

Across Sicily
Oct. 16, 2009, 01:59 PM
We've sold 3 this week alone. From low-to-midrange five figures to lower six figures. One to a junior rider, one to an amateur, one to someone who wants to watch Trainerkins show the horse :) Have potential buyers looking at 2 more horses, one is very serious. One is waffling. Have yet another waiting pending vet check. Couldn't give horses away for the past year and a half, and now they're selling like hotcakes! Last one we sold was about 2 mos ago, before that nothing for almost a year. Crazy.

dags
Oct. 16, 2009, 02:01 PM
We've sold 3 this week alone. From low-to-midrange five figures to lower six figures. One to a junior rider, one to an amateur, one to someone who wants to watch Trainerkins show the horse :) Have potential buyers looking at 2 more horses, one is very serious. One is waffling. Have yet another waiting pending vet check. Couldn't give horses away for the past year and a half, and now they're selling like hotcakes! Last one we sold was about 2 mos ago, before that nothing for almost a year. Crazy.

Right? the upturn has been unbelievable.

ponymom64
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:19 PM
That's really remarkable about the upswing!

How would you suggest going about getting something sold, if one's own trainer is not particularly good at sales? I don't want to do the sending to Florida with an agent as I did that last year and while the pony was eventually sold - it was not a pleasant experience for me.

Any ideas from you sales pros??

LockeMeadows
Oct. 16, 2009, 04:53 PM
We just sold two weanlings to a great home. In the past few weeks, I've had a lot of interest in my yearling (which at that age can be a hard sale). Let's hope this trend continues!

dags
Oct. 16, 2009, 05:21 PM
That's really remarkable about the upswing!

How would you suggest going about getting something sold, if one's own trainer is not particularly good at sales? I don't want to do the sending to Florida with an agent as I did that last year and while the pony was eventually sold - it was not a pleasant experience for me.

Any ideas from you sales pros??

Take care of everything so that all your trainer has to do is keep the horse fit and show ready. Get the sale tapes ready, select the pictures, write out the copy and have them approve it, place the ads, hang up the flyers, etc. Once the interest is there they're usually quite happy to interact with Buyers, schedule trials, arrange PPE, negotiate, etc. It's all the prep work they're usually not interested in, or more often, not even really sure how to do. They are, after all, horse trainers, not advertising and marketing gurus.

That's essentially the driving principle behind our entire service.

Lexus
Oct. 17, 2009, 01:40 PM
Take care of everything so that all your trainer has to do is keep the horse fit and show ready. Get the sale tapes ready, select the pictures, write out the copy and have them approve it, place the ads, hang up the flyers, etc. Once the interest is there they're usually quite happy to interact with Buyers, schedule trials, arrange PPE, negotiate, etc. It's all the prep work they're usually not interested in, or more often, not even really sure how to do. They are, after all, horse trainers, not advertising and marketing gurus.

That's essentially the driving principle behind our entire service.

While I agree with this I took a slightly different approach. I have my own farm and we work with a wonderful trainer who is sometimes not particularly motivated to do the leg work to earn her 15% sales commission on a clients sale. I finally decided I may need one trainer who I show with but another trainer more focused on sales. With this approach I now have a pony leaving monday for a trial / lease and a sales plan for my small pony. If I'm paying 15% commission I need the trainer to do something other than show up for the trial.

mvp
Oct. 18, 2009, 12:00 AM
Great thread-- I'm learning lots.

dags, will you quote range for 2'6" horses since those now seem to be an "official category," and people are seeking these out as specialty items?

They had better not be above 10K.

Seriously. 2'6". How hard is it to get one really broke and trained? It doesn't have to be a good athlete, right? So that makes many horses eligible in contrast to the modern 3'6" (let alone regulars or derby horses) who *must be* amazing athletes in order to "walk" in that slow canter with a 14' stride.

Am I wrong? If so, how?

dags
Oct. 18, 2009, 09:13 AM
Great thread-- I'm learning lots.

dags, will you quote range for 2'6" horses since those now seem to be an "official category," and people are seeking these out as specialty items?

They had better not be above 10K.

Seriously. 2'6". How hard is it to get one really broke and trained? It doesn't have to be a good athlete, right? So that makes many horses eligible in contrast to the modern 3'6" (let alone regulars or derby horses) who *must be* amazing athletes in order to "walk" in that slow canter with a 14' stride.

Am I wrong? If so, how?

meh, I'm not about to put up a 2'6" section on the site, not a real category IMO. If you are talking about something for the Novice Adults they are probably still 3' horses that happened into owners with no desire to jump that high. The novices generally need something that can crawl out of trouble as necessary so that extra "scope" (I use that term loosely) for 3' is quite helpful in the 2'6" ring.

Now, if you're talking about 2'6" horses as in a "First Horse" type, generally something that's stepping down but was previously a legitimate 3' or 3'6" horse, you're getting into that area where they can easily become "worth their weight in gold". A kind, saintly beast that can get around 8 fences with his eyes closed, has a documented record of success on the circuit, typically wins so long as Novice Nellie stays aboard, and has a line of kids waiting to graduate to it can be anywhere from $12,500 - $25,000, more if it can still move the novice up to 3', and dependent on current age, soundness and movement. That horse is probably down from $25K-$50K.

Always keep in mind my quotes deal with circuit quality horses only though. Your random QH Appendix that w,t,c and jumps in basic fashion, wins at Local Level but far outclassed in the AA's Novice Adults, can only handle a 3' fence at mach speed and with a perfect distance, is an under $10K beast I'm imagining.

As you can see few people set out to make themselves up a 2'6" horse- it's not like they get them going around the Baby Greens and then pawn them off on the novice crowd, who likely couldn't handle the youngster anyway. It's still a horse in which someone has invested years of training, showing and care to give it the experience and sense of humor a 2'6" horse needs, and the peace of mind a newbie show mom & dad need, which is why it is still a 5 figure horse.

mvp
Oct. 18, 2009, 10:44 AM
My lazy, kind, broke-to-death AA/Old Lady eq machine would be *psyched* to learn he was worth five figures. So would my wallet. I just can't believe it. He's not for sale, mainly because I don't want to see him passed around as the "first horse" over and over until loses his training and soundness through years of the so-so riding that comes with the job.

I just can't believe it, that's all. Thanks for your input.

dags
Oct. 18, 2009, 10:49 AM
Another disclaimer - if you are talking about a specific horse you know of (ie: yours) I stand behind none of my quotes until I see pictures and video :) just sayin' . . .

meupatdoes
Oct. 18, 2009, 11:09 AM
While I agree with this I took a slightly different approach. I have my own farm and we work with a wonderful trainer who is sometimes not particularly motivated to do the leg work to earn her 15% sales commission on a clients sale. I finally decided I may need one trainer who I show with but another trainer more focused on sales. With this approach I now have a pony leaving monday for a trial / lease and a sales plan for my small pony. If I'm paying 15% commission I need the trainer to do something other than show up for the trial.

Agreed.

The amount of commission I am willing to pay is inversely proportional to the amount of leg work *I* have to do.
I have had numerous trainers hold out their palm for a commission when *I* was the one who did the networking, *I* found someone to tape *me* riding and then *I* made the sale video, *I* arranged the trial with the client, *I* did the demo riding, etc.

One trainer heard I had a customer coming, and called me irate: "AM I STILL REPRESENTING THIS HORSE?" He demanded commission in the event of a sale even though he did not even know the name of the customer.
He showed up at the trial long enough to watch me ride the horse for the customer, and then take *my* customer to go see another horse at a different barn (without telling me; I only found out months later.) For this he wanted commission in the event my horse sold. You have got to be kidding.

And how did I find the customer?
By talking casually to the student who cleaned my horse's stall, and had been doing so 300 yards away from trainer's office for the past five months. The student was the son of well-known professionals downstate who had a bustling sales business. I mentioned my horse was for sale and he said, "Wow! I didn't know!" and within 5 days he came with a customer.

What on earth makes people feel entitled to take a commission for really doing ZERO work is beyond me, but crap like this is why I now board privately and meet trainers for lessons and shows. (And the buyer can make the check out directly to me -from which amount I then cut a commission check- and sign a purchase agreement that details exactly what commission I am paying to whom, too.)

Tiki
Oct. 18, 2009, 11:42 AM
So what would be a price range for a current 6yo that just finished the year qualified for the Midwest League Championships for Young Jumpers - and not even all the scores were turned in by one show manager? Easily doing Level 5/Level 6? Ready to move on?

dags
Oct. 18, 2009, 12:47 PM
So what would be a price range for a current 6yo that just finished the year qualified for the Midwest League Championships for Young Jumpers - and not even all the scores were turned in by one show manager? Easily doing Level 5/Level 6? Ready to move on?

This one needs more info - is it going to be a Grand Prix horse, or a Jr/AO horse? Is it going to be The Winner at that? Did he DO the Championships? Rideability? Has a jr/am gotten him around, how many jokes has he seen?? His 7/8 yo year will tell much more about him and if his end result is a Jr/Am horse then he needs to go take a joke or 500 in the show ring and prove that sense of humor.

Anywhere from 60/75K - 150K - 250K depending on those answers, the barn it's in and motivation to sell. The high end quote is obviously The Winner and they're probably okay with sitting on the horse for another year unless the right buyer comes along. Price may have left some room for horse to grow into, in other words.

Tiki
Oct. 18, 2009, 01:16 PM
Thanks Dags. That's very helpful in making decisions.

Plumcreek
Oct. 18, 2009, 01:31 PM
This thread absolutely rocks - best in a long time!!!