I finally drove my runabout!

[nfld_pony]

Remember the Morgan that I had in for a while that wouldn't bend? It's because my cart was too narrow, or at least I'm thinking it was. I put him in the runabout and he was awesome! Very bendy flexy!

With the help of the lovely COTH user, hansiska, I was able to put new washers on the carriage so they didn't furiously wobble!

Here's some photos from that outting.

photo 1 (http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs267.snc1/9427_1239770761364_1442145442_693797_5849317_n.jpg )

photo 2 (http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs267.snc1/9427_1239780601610_1442145442_693818_3963523_n.jpg )

Pardon the leaning forward, I remember I was reseating myself during this photo!
photo 3 (http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs267.snc1/9427_1239758361054_1442145442_693776_8316998_n.jpg )

[MySparrow]

LOVELY! How did you like the carriage?

[nfld_pony]

IT was amazingly...... loud. It doesn't have metal on the wheels... but it was awesome. i love four wheelers.. just don't try to turn around... no ''roll backs'' there...

[nfld_pony]

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/orangeearth29/Driving%20Jack%20in%20the%20Big%20Carriage%20down% 20the%20road/?action=view&current=Jacklooksawsomewiththebigcarriage.flv

there's a video. Can anyone tell me how to bring his head down? it's usually up here somewhere in the air...This video was pretty soon after hooking him, he was a little better after he warmed up, but it's never quite where I'd like it to be.

I find when I give alternating half halts then he just gets tense. he also has his head up when he's being riden too.

[hitchinmygetalong]

How to get his head down = the million dollar question. Have you checked his mouth to be sure there are no issues with the bit? If you are certain he is comfortable with the bit, then I think long-lining and ground driving might be the next step in training. He has that Amish "broke to drive" look to him - where he was broke to pull a carriage but not to truly work his whole body, so he just props his head up on an upside down neck, drops his back, and pulls with his shoulders.

I would just work with him on the ground with no carriage and try to get him to relax that neck and start using his back. Do you have any good dressage trainers in the area? They might be of help. And I wouldn't ride him too much until that back gets a little stronger.

[Drive NJ]

You cant really look at this as "how do I get his head down" in 2 easy steps.
THis horse has been trained (in past use) to go the way he is going. To get his head down you have to get him to buy into a whole nother program. Just look at the bow in his back and the curve on the underside of his neck. This horse has the muscling developed to hold his neck that way.

He needs to learn to relax and reach for the bit and its gonna take TIME - lots of TIME. Probably a whole winter project and then some. Especially since this is a well ingrained habit for him

I might try a new bit - something soft that he still respects but will give him a clue that you are asking something different. The other thing is NOT ask for speed. He needs to just relax into a new job and reach.

Ive mentioned before that our trainer used a new (for her) technique learned from a dressage barn, of using just an inside side-rein while lunging to help the horse learn self-carriage and to use his back. Our Cooper tends to carry his head high and this has helped a lot with him.

You also have to be aware of the conformation of the horse and how the neck is set on the shoulders. Some breeds like Morgan, Hackney, Saddlebred, some drafts, and others cannot easily carry their heads in a true "low" headset, their necks are not built for it. But you cant really know how much this horse is fighting conformation and just old training that stuck him this way until he improves his incorrect muscling. Bringing his nose in a bit will help the look but again - its not just using reins to bring the nose in - its asking the rest of his body to reach up to his nose (I know that sounds funny, but . . . ) A false headset does not correct the inner problem that only new conditioning is going to fix

Best of luck He looks like a pleasant horse to work with

[nfld_pony]

Thanks everyone!

Is he a really nice horse. I quite like him. He's a 2'3'' jumper, a trail horse, goes english, western, drives, he's not spookable. he's just awesome.

the bit she has now is a really thin d ring snaffle. I, too, think it's the bit. At first I thought it was a tooth problem, the vet said his teeth weren't too bad and that the floating was more just cosmetic.

I don't know much about bits... What's a soft, doesn't need leverage, 'help bring the head down' bit?

[hitchinmygetalong]

My favorite bit is the Herm Sprenger French Link Loose Ring (http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-01314&bhcd2=1255085028). It's a tad pricey. I'm sure there will be other recommendations.

And please, just for me... clarify the gender of the horse? In your last post you referred to "he" and then "she" :lol:

[Drive NJ]

Its not so much that the bit "will help bring the head down" and it is that a change of bit "can" que the horse that you want something new from them

I prefer a solid mouthpiece for driving as the leverage on the length of driving rein can really crack the nut of asnaffle bit. BUT the3 peice snaffles can be a good choice for some horses.

We have one horse in a mullen mouth liverpool (rough cheek rein setting)
and the other uses a swivel cheek glory liverpool in the snaffle ring slots
Many Morgans like the Glory bit because they seem to have low thick palates and this bit fits their mouth well

A solid mouth will also give the horse something solid to lean on and reach for. But I think most of all it will be a BIG clue to the horse that you are asking for a new response - different from the snaffle he's used to.
If you do stay with a snaffle get something thicker

Best bet is if you can borrow bit from someone local to try an see what the horse likes - thats not always possible - but I think its a big help if you are aiming towards an expensive bit to be able to try it first

But remember that just changing the bit is only a start on changing this horse's way of carrying his head and moving. His muscles are going to have to learn a new manner

[hitchinmygetalong]

Many Morgans like the Glory bit because they seem to have low thick palates and this bit fits their mouth well


Very good point. It's important to take a good look at the anatomy of their mouths when choosing a bit.

[nfld_pony]

just a quick not. the horse is a he. the "she has" is the owner! i'm running behind, i'll reply more later.

[nfld_pony]

Okay, I finally read everything, and I've looked at glory bits. A glory butterfly, or a glory liverpool, or just any glory bit?

[nfld_pony]

Also, what's the difference in a glory and an arch mouth

Arch:
http://www.drivingessentials.com/pop%20up%20pages/bits_under_ArchLiv.htm

Glory:
http://www.drivingessentials.com/pop%20up%20pages/bits_glory_fxliv.htm

[Thomas_1]

If you give this thread a read you'll appreciate the importance of mouthing and bitting:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=223453

I hate to suggest how to hold driving reins with a 2 handed position but read the bit on hand position in that thread link above. The hands in the video and photos are very rigid and forward.

Then several things to do and and check that I think are essential:

1. Change the bitL First choice I'd recommend the arch one you've posted above, second choice I'd suggest a port mouth liverpool and like this:

http://www.rideanddrive.co.uk/bitsuk/pages/bitpics/lport.htm

2. Lower the bit. Just going from the videos but it looks high

3. The horse lacks power from behind. 2 things to do/try. Check his position in relation to the carriage. Is he a little close?? He looks as if he's moving very short strided behind. So stand in front of the carriage at the position his backside is and then leaning forward from your waist extend your leg as far back as it will go. Are you anywhere near touching the underneath of the vehicle?? If so the horse needs to be a little further forward so he doesn't worry about striding out.

3. Then he needs to be fitter and develop musculature and power through his back and hind end. I don't know if he's ridden as well but he'd benefit from walking up and down hills - driving will do if necessary.

To bring your horse’s back up in ridden work you must sit up in with good position. Keep your hips upright, your stomach and back muscles toned, and your legs down into the stirrups. Keep your let contact so you can feel his muscles. Hands to be in good position and elbows by your side (see earlier comment) Get your shoulders back and hold your hands (and the bit!) stead. Then do a load of walking and walk halt, walk, halt transitions to encourage him to use his back and quarters. If you feel him hesitate, release your muscle tone, soften your legs and ensure your hands all allow him forwards. This hesitation is where he has to take weight on his hindlegs, helping him build muscle on his back, belly and haunches. When walking uphill get him to stride out briskly. When he takes weight behind properly, his belly muscles firm up as he tucks his pelvis under.

4. Finally I think your terret rings might be a little too high. A better photo side on would help me say definitively but they do look as though they're going to encourage the horse to keep the head high. However this is a minor matter and the last thing to be considered in view of the aforementioned.

[Drive NJ]

This is a really simplistic description of the difference in bit but:

the true arch mouth mouthpiece has a somewhat higher center of the curve

a mullen mouth has a more gentle curve to the bit than the arch mouth

the glory bit has a curve like the mullen mouth but it is also tipped forward so it rests differently in the mouth. It seems to work well on horses who have small mouths or low palates

IMHO the change in bit is sometimes to make the horse more comfortable and sometimes to give them a clue that "the old way didnt work, lets try something new"

It always amazes me how a simple change in tack can change a horses attitude. And I dont think its a matter of "that way hurts and this doesnt" I think its that they accept that different tack means different job and they are willing to give it a try. They can be so awesomely accepting of all our faults!

[Nojacketrequired]

I always learn so many things here, from every thread.

Ive mentioned before that our trainer used a new (for her) technique learned from a dressage barn, of using just an inside side-rein while lunging to help the horse learn self-carriage and to use his back. Our Cooper tends to carry his head high and this has helped a lot with him.

I learned from an old Swiss Cavalry instructor about a million different ways to longe, for different results.

One I really like for high headed horses (I do ridden dressage and am a driving newbie), is to put a side rein on the outside, and run the long line from your hand, through the inside snaffle ring, then back to attach at about where your knee would be on the saddle. (The horse has to be experienced on the longe first, for this method.) This allows you to use the longe line to ask for slight flexion to the inside when you need it, while the outside side rein doesn't allow the horse to swing his butt outwards or over bend the neck to the inside and avoid the correct bend. Very helpful for asking the horse to relax and lower it's head and neck on the longe, Which will hopefully carry over into other disciplines as he becomes more comfortable.

LOVE those Morgan ears inthe first picture!

NJR

[nfld_pony]

I hate to suggest how to hold driving reins with a 2 handed position [...]
I'm driving one handed, like usual. My hands are just too far forward because the lines I wanted to use (the longer ones) weren't with me. You can see that I've changed to tan lines in the other photos. They're longer and my hands are back where they should be, not with locked elbows.

Change the bit:
We're looking for a liverpool, or something of that sort. There's no driving stores at all around here, so we're looking online. She's going to try riding him in a thicker snaffle and see how he does. She rides daily, so it won't be long until I hear.

2. Lower the bit. Just going from the videos but it looks high
I'll give it a try.

3. The horse lacks power from behind.
Isn't that from having his head up and not lifting his back? Once he rounds out he'll use his bum more, right?

Then he needs to be fitter and develop musculature and power through his back and hind end. I don't know if he's ridden as well but he'd benefit from walking up and down hills - driving will do if necessary.
He is riden a lot, but the lady that rides is older and doesn't sit how she probably should. I've been working on that with her for a while, but she's only doing it when she's here.
This is her. (http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v377/180/30/1442145442/n1442145442_114000_5186.jpg)

4. Finally I think your terret rings might be a little too high.
This is the infamous Ron's Horse Harness, the $500 special. I don't like it, but it's the only thing that I have that comes close to fitting Jack.
Here's where they are. (http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs247.snc1/9427_1239762881167_1442145442_693784_2744605_n.jpg )

[nfld_pony]

Here's a the same photo as above, just a closer shot. (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g218/dwyerfarm/jackandicloseup.jpg)

Are the shafts okay there? Is he too close to the carriage? That's I hold the lines one handed, is that right? Yes, I'm leaning forward, I think I Was pushing myself back further into the seat at this point in time.

[Thomas_1]

I can see why I thought you were driving two handed. You're holding your arm straight forward and your hand too. I thought it was sort of a poor riding position and that you needed to round your wrist and get your elbow in.

For driving you need your arm down in a relaxed position from the shoulder and your forarm held naturally across the front of your body and with your wrist rounded and flexible so you're able to provide some "give". In the neutral position if you glance down at your hand you should just be able to see your first and second finger knuckles. To get the rights and lefts you merely incline your wrist. Imagine you're just saying what time is it and looking at your watch that's you turned and if you turn your watch so it's on the inside of your wrist and turn your wrist outward to see the time, then you've gone the opposite direction.

I'm going to see if I can find you a photo of a decent hand position with reins in place and if I can't, I'll see if I can get Susan to get the camera and take one when she's back in from her ride.

I do think he's looking too close and as if he might have reason to be concerned about clipping his hind legs underneath if he extends and uses his power from behind to gain impulsion. But do what I suggested earlier and that will inform you.

[nfld_pony]

Yes, I know that. I did say it was only because I have lines that were too short. My longer lines were stuck in traffic, but were there about 5 minutes after that photo was taken. what do you mean rounded at the wrist?

Do you have a good photo of you seated in the vehicle?

[hansiska]

Congratulations!!!

Wish I'd noticed this thread earlier, but I hope things continue to go well! :winkgrin:

[SmokenMirrors]

Why brown lines? I think that black lines would of looked much better. And are you using *gasp* :eek: TWO HANDS?! For shame!

[Drive NJ]

Smoke

Most good light harness has either all brown reins or black reins from the horse to the splice and brown back from there

I was always told 2 reasons. First that the brown, undied leather wouldn't bleed on your hands/gloves or apron or even light colored horse. Second was brown reins make it easier to keep an eye on any areas where the hide is flawed.

[SmokenMirrors]

Drive NJ...lol yes I know, I have a light harness that I drive using black lines on. Thankfully never had the problem of them bleeding through on my gloves or apron, then again, the only time I have shown in the rain, was when we had a hurricane coming through and the judge was the in hand judge so we did halter in that torrential downpour....thank goodness for tall horses to stand under their head...lol....

Just teasing since him and the "All Knowing" were busting our chops about some of us driving with two hands.

[Drive NJ]

Sorry about that then :)