PDA

View Full Version : War Relic has a FEMALE twice in lineage



ThisTooShallPass
Oct. 7, 2009, 01:34 PM
I am sure having a female TWICE in a pedigree exists mroe than I know, though this is the first time I personally have encountered it. The talk is always about the sires umpteen different times in lineage, never a female.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/war+relic

Las Olas
Oct. 7, 2009, 01:42 PM
It's quite common. Rasmussen devoted an entire book to the subject, Inbreeding To Superior Females. Although, it actually covers more linebreeding than inbreeding.

ThisTooShallPass
Oct. 7, 2009, 01:48 PM
Can you give some other actual examples? Highly unlikely I shall ever buy the book you mention.

TIA

Barnfairy
Oct. 7, 2009, 01:56 PM
Through his sire, my Rasor D (http://www.pedigreequery.com/rasor+d) has the great blue hen mare Aspidistra twice.

ThisTooShallPass
Oct. 7, 2009, 02:06 PM
Oh wow, she produced Dr Fager. Neat.

Do you say produced for the mommy? Or do you say that for the sire?

cloudyandcallie
Oct. 7, 2009, 02:14 PM
War Relic? as in the one many years ago, son of Man O' War?

I have one of his great great something grands............a Hessen from Germany.:lol: Cloudy goes back to some good american racing lineage, since the europeans know how important American TBs are.
Cloudy's pedigree is on allbreedpedigrees.com as "Partly Cloudy."

Interestingly, my mare Kick and Howl, who went back to War Admiral, had an ancestor who was listed as a Westphalian, since he or she (I forget) had been graded into the German Westphalian registry.

I love the War Relic and War Admiral lines.

And I temorarily forget the name of the French TB mare who shows up all over my horses' pedigrees.

Las Olas
Oct. 7, 2009, 02:34 PM
Right off the top of my head, there's Teuflesburg (State), Fall Aspen (Selene), Relaxing (La Troienne), Damascus (Selene), Indian Ocean (South Ocean), Like Now (Natalma), Objective (Gold Digger), Heritage of Gold (Glamour), Mineshaft (Striking). I could spend days listing them. If you go back far enough, the majority of TB's will have reoccurring female ancestors.

Barnfairy
Oct. 7, 2009, 02:38 PM
Do you say produced for the mommy? Or do you say that for the sire?
Studs sire and throw.

Mares produce and drop things (foals, presumably) on the ground.

:lol:

cloudyandcallie
Oct. 7, 2009, 02:40 PM
Mumtag Begum.
She only ran a few times, but she "dropped and produced" a lot of horses and appears in both my KY TB and my German WB's bloodlines more than once.

Drvmb1ggl3
Oct. 7, 2009, 02:44 PM
World's most successful sire, in terms of group/graded winners, Danehill, is linebred 3x3 to Natalma, the bottom being tail female, pretty cool.

There has to be any number of horses over the years linebreed to Somethingroyal through Secretariat and Sir Gaylord.

Almahmoud being the 2nd dam of both Halo and Northern Dancer gives plenty of opportunities for linebreeding. Probably loads of those in Japan I would imagine, given the propensity for putting Sunday Silence on mares with ND up close.

danceronice
Oct. 7, 2009, 03:14 PM
I'm more amused/bemused that they bred Man o' War (by Fair Play) to a daughter of Fair Play's half brother Friar Rock, who is out of Fairy Gold (dam of Fair Play) and sired by Rock Sand, the sire of Mahubah, the dam of...Man o' War. Meanwhile Friar Carse (the first dam) also has inbreeding to Bend Or via her damsire, Superman.

I can't help thinking that somehow out of that War Relic is his own grampa.

Drvmb1ggl3
Oct. 7, 2009, 03:21 PM
Lalun, dam of Bold Reason and Never Bend. Any horse with both Sadlers Wells and Mill Reef, and there's more than a few of those out there, will be linebred to her.

cloudyandcallie
Oct. 7, 2009, 04:05 PM
I'm more amused/bemused that they bred Man o' War (by Fair Play) to a daughter of Fair Play's half brother Friar Rock, who is out of Fairy Gold (dam of Fair Play) and sired by Rock Sand, the sire of Mahubah, the dam of...Man o' War. Meanwhile Friar Carse (the first dam) also has inbreeding to Bend Or via her damsire, Superman.

I can't help thinking that somehow out of that War Relic is his own grampa.

:lol::lol:So true.

SmartAlex
Oct. 7, 2009, 04:33 PM
Do you say produced for the mommy? Or do you say that for the sire?

"Get" of Sire... "He got"
"Produce" of Dam... "She produced"

Catsdorule-sigh
Oct. 7, 2009, 10:46 PM
Actually, if you want to see something interesting along these lines, take a look at Rachael Alexandra's tail female line:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/rachel+alexandra


You will see a mare named Ellen's Best, by War Relic. Ellen's Best great grand dam is Speed Boat, a full sister of War Relic.

Sometimes I think that War Relic was more successful in passing on the line through sire sons because of the concentration of Rock Sand/Fairy Gold in his pedigree.

Would that they had crossed Man O' War on mares that had lines to Rock Sand, Hampton, AND West Australian- or for that matter, had not basically used him as a private stallion. Still, it is amazing today, if you get to looking, how often you will find MOW or a relative in the dam line.

Equilibrium
Oct. 8, 2009, 12:43 AM
Here's a filly I own:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/marge3

Check out the damline on Marju, Robellino, and Twilight Patrol - all the same damline.

Terri

Seal Harbor
Oct. 8, 2009, 01:25 AM
Through his sire, my Rasor D (http://www.pedigreequery.com/rasor+d) has the great blue hen mare Aspidistra twice.

My little pumpkin's tail female is Aspidistra, but only once. His grand dam Gana Facil produced Unbridled a half brother to my pumpkin's dam.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/in+gold+reality

Janet
Oct. 8, 2009, 01:26 AM
Spy's dam, Darmellow, goes back twice each to Mumtaz Mahal, Selene, Drift.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/darmellow

His sire, Stoic Spy, goes back twice to Mumtaz Begum (and through her to Mumtaz Mahal) and also goes back once to Selene

http://www.pedigreequery.com/stoic+spy

Yes, quite a lot of concentration of the female lines.

vineyridge
Oct. 8, 2009, 08:59 AM
There is a classic on TB breeding called something like Breeding Racehorses from Cluster Mares. The author did a study of all the winners of the Classic races on three continents, and many European countries, and found that something like 65% could trace back to a very small number of mares. Those mares who were found in the six generation pedigree of 5 or more classic winners, he designated Cluster Mares; from 3 to 5, I think, were called Star mares.

His theory was that breeders should focus on having the largest possible number of Cluster and Star mares in planning breedings; and he also found that the sires of classic winners were often less successful siblings/full or half of the "great" and very expensive classic winners.

It's a fascinating book. To me the female lines are the true treasures of TB breeding. One mare who is such a treasure who hasn't been mentioned was Rough Shod. Another is Lavendula. Still another is a mare named Banquet Bell. I do wish the owners of Chateaugay and his full sister Primonetta had figured out some way to do a breeding patterned on the mating of Man O'War and Friar's Carse. What a line that might have created!

Alibhai's Alibar
Oct. 8, 2009, 11:03 AM
The horse I'm riding these days (http://www.pedigreequery.com/doctors+secret) is 4x4 Kerala, who produced both Damascus and Beaufix. It won him neither accolades at the track nor in the show ring, but he's a lovely horse with a neat pedigree.

rcloisonne
Oct. 9, 2009, 06:01 PM
There has to be any number of horses over the years linebreed to Somethingroyal through Secretariat and Sir Gaylord.
:yes: My favorite racehorse, Local Justice, is exactly that.

http:www.pedigreequery.com/local+justice

Drvmb1ggl3
Oct. 9, 2009, 07:10 PM
Linebreeding to two full sisters, in this case kind of a 3x1 cross, example A (http://www.pedigreequery.com/fatherland).
Then the same cross, but using a full brother of the sire in the previous example, example B (http://www.pedigreequery.com/pairc-na-lee).

vineyridge
Oct. 10, 2009, 11:23 AM
As long as we are talking about breeding to great mares, how could we forget Concertina and her daughter Plucky Liege and her granddaughter Friar's Daughter. There must be thousands of TBs with that cross in the world. Pretty far back, but just a huge number.