How much use is dressage training for hunting?

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Or is it a detriment?

Do those of you who regularly take dressage lessons on your hunt horses think it helps you in the field?

[lizathenag]

lateral work is great for opening gates.

[EmmyTheHemi]

Do those of you who regularly take dressage lessons on your hunt horses think it helps you in the field?


Disclaimer: my boy and I came to hunting via eventing, so there's already some acknowledgement that the dressage thing is necessary.

I would think a responsive, well-balanced horse would be an asset in the field or anywhere else. In my humble experience, dressage work has REALLY helped us. We did intensive dressage boot camp from November through May, boarding with a local dressage trainer and commuting out to hunt as long as the season lasted (certainly the first time that had happened in that barn). Then we worked indoors the rest of the winter to rebuild a better horse and rider. Better dressage, better jumping, better eventing, and now better hunting.

Not to mention, hunting helped his dressage work.

Maybe all those old cavalry masters were on to something... :)

[nightsong]

I was at a feed store in Wyoming, and the salesman told me how glad he was that his wife taught his cowponies dressage and jumping. The dressage made his horses MUCH handier when chasing cattle across the rough country (we were at the edge of the mountains) and jumping got them over WHATEVER was in their way. sounds a lot like hunting!!!

[JSwan]

I may be in the minority but I think dressage is crucial.

I wouldn't treat dressage as a way to control the every thought and footfall of the horse, of course. I mean really applying the knowledge and skills to have a balanced, responsive horse. Movements like shoulder-in, haunches-in/out, leg yielding, and the half halt are really useful.

Hope that helps.

[nightsong]

I was thinking of dressage as teaching the horse to handle himself better, with balance. Not as a collection of trick moves to be used in certain situations.

[JSwan]

That's the first I've ever seen a movement described as a "trick move". I'd rather a person use a half halt before a trappy coop rather than haul on their horse's mouth to get it to slow down.

If you want to call it a trick move - that's your perogative.

I call it dressage.

And every field hunter and rider benefits from it.

[Beverley]

Well, 'dressage' is nothing more than the French word for 'training.' Anyone worth their salt will tell you that whatever you are using the horse for, you want it to be well balanced and responsive and obedient. 90% of training over fences is...the basic schooling on the flat (have I mentioned how much I hate that new term 'flatting'...)

The result of proper flat work, call it what you will, is a horse that carries itself in balance- INCLUDING WHEN BEING RIDDEN OFF CONTACT. I ride to hunt- want the horse to just do its job without micromanagement. He would be clueless as to what to do if I didn't school him in lateral work, shortening and lengthening strides at all three gaits, and how to properly negotiate hills, both up and down.

For me, whatever I'm doing on a horse, riding a beast that has never been taught how to 'use itself' is not fun.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

At the very least, being able to leg yield away from trees and thorns can save your kneecaps and britches!

[ShotenStar]

My neighbors are foxhunters, while I am a dressage and trail rider with eventing and hunting in my past. Generally the neighbors are a bit ... dismissive ... of my arena work. Until they got an OTTB that was a bit of a mess. They asked to use my arena in order to have a confined space to work him. When they asked for some observations and feedback, I provided it, along with some exercises they could try to address some of the larger issues I saw. They were so pleased they now take weekly lessons with a dressage instructor.

While they are by no means looking to come down the centerline any time soon, they have come to appreciate that the human can influence the horse by means other than the bridle.

*star*

[whicker]

Your hunter will be sound much longer, too. He will be able to be balanced and cat like to handle whatever comes his way. Imagine thinking what you want and have it happen. You won't get as tired and neither will he. Those calvary officers loved to hunt and brought their hounds with them when they were going to a new base. Gen, Patton was all over my territory.

[rebeginner]

If "dressage" = "training," you may have posed an question best answered by the Department of Redundancy Department. :) :)

I'll bet no one wants to hunt an untrained horse.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Recognizing that dressage does really mean training, I was specifically talking about what we affectionately call "prancing in circles" (Lisa W-B has an old ranch horse who watches with some amusement while other horses do dressage - we imagine that he would call it that.)

Probably should have explained myself better. I've been a bit brain-dead lately.

I was thinking about the belief - held by some, but clearly not all - that taking an event horse to a high level of dressage "ruins" him for x-c, because he learns to wait for instructions rather than thinking for himself.

[pleasantmeadowfarm]

Well, 'dressage' is nothing more than the French word for 'training.' Anyone worth their salt will tell you that whatever you are using the horse for, you want it to be well balanced and responsive and obedient. 90% of training over fences is...the basic schooling on the flat (have I mentioned how much I hate that new term 'flatting'...)

The result of proper flat work, call it what you will, is a horse that carries itself in balance- INCLUDING WHEN BEING RIDDEN OFF CONTACT. I ride to hunt- want the horse to just do its job without micromanagement. He would be clueless as to what to do if I didn't school him in lateral work, shortening and lengthening strides at all three gaits, and how to properly negotiate hills, both up and down.

For me, whatever I'm doing on a horse, riding a beast that has never been taught how to 'use itself' is not fun.

Just this morning I was enjoying a bit of lateral work as the Huntsman did a headcount. Leg yield/half pass.. my mare was stiff from fall shots. It's great to use basic dressage/flat work to keep them supple and also great to have them moving off/bending around your leg (again - negotiating through trees is a great example). All that dressage work was great for Hunting and vice versa... she moves even more uphill and balanced than before we started hunting.. also great for them to REALLY know where their legs are and how to use them on uneven footing...

[rebeginner]

Of course, R-A R, I think I knew what you were asking, but was subltly chiming in with other posters.

I might actually agree that, for example, taking Keltec Salinero foxhunting might be a really bad idea. However, Podhajsky routinely took his stallions galloping cross country with others from the SRS. So, maybe foxhunting might be beneficial even for horses doing Grand Prix dressage. Wait. Your question was the other way around. hmmmm. I guess I have to say I wouldn't want Salinero out there trying to think for himself in a covert somewhere. At least, not with me on him.

[Beverley]

I was thinking about the belief - held by some, but clearly not all - that taking an event horse to a high level of dressage "ruins" him for x-c, because he learns to wait for instructions rather than thinking for himself.

That mindset is not new. When I was in college in the early 70s, one of my fellow collegians had a mare that she competed quite successfully in dressage- had her bronze medal, maybe even silver and/or gold. She dabbled in showing hunter o/f and a bit of eventing too. The mare liked the variety. Her dressage friends were horrified that she was 'ruining' her nice horse!

I am not of the opinion that training to even the highest levels of dressage 'ruins' a horse for x-c. What 'ruins' them is indeed, never letting them think for themselves. I've had horses that had no problem at all with 'now we are doing dressage for the next couple of minutes, and you will be supple and obedient and responsive to every twitch of my pinkie fingers and heels' - and then go out and let 'er rip cross country, forward and happy and jumping out of stride, because the horse has been given the proper foundation for independent thought when necessary in doing its job.

[Equibrit]

Any time that you can influence your horse's movement with very subtle cues is a benefit. Flying changes around sharp corners were always useful. When I fieldmastered my mare would go for miles in a relaxed and stunning extended trot whilst all the rest followed at a gallop. Lateral work is very useful for getting out of the way and half halts, without use of the hands, are a much better way to rate a horse that has to work hard for several hours. My mare was an avid and keen hunter in the winter and an impressive dressage horse in the summer. Maybe Salinero would have been a very different horse if he had spent his early years in the hunt field ?

[KayBee]

I was thinking about the belief - held by some, but clearly not all - that taking an event horse to a high level of dressage "ruins" him for x-c, because he learns to wait for instructions rather than thinking for himself.

This is a slightly different question than your OP. It may have been Reiner Klimke -- at any rate a high-level rider with an international reputation -- who felt that high level dressage *could* interfere with a horse's ability to "think for itself" when out cross-country. I think the story went that this rider's horse was injured, and when bringing it back, he schooled it to a higher level/the highest levels and found that, when it was finally ready to go back out into the field again, it had "lost" something of it's former ability to read a fence for itself and instead "waited" to be told what to do.

I've seen this belief/observation raised in the eventing forums over the new dressage tests that, as I understand it, include higher level movements than formerly.

But that's a different thing from dressage, in general, being a good foundation to build on/provide support for any discipline.

[armandh]

the big paint [photo in my profile] had a several months with a local Dressage trainer B4 I started hunting him. very very strong and forward, He never felt like my first hunt [1/4] horse. but since no two are alike one uses the training resources that work. As the years went on he improved quite a bit, [but never entirely quit the pulling until after the first run.]

[Ravencrest_Camp]

Any time that you can influence your horse's movement with very subtle cues is a benefit. Flying changes around sharp corners were always useful. When I fieldmastered my mare would go for miles in a relaxed and stunning extended trot whilst all the rest followed at a gallop. Lateral work is very useful for getting out of the way and half halts, without use of the hands, are a much better way to rate a horse that has to work hard for several hours. My mare was an avid and keen hunter in the winter and an impressive dressage horse in the summer. Maybe Salinero would have been a very different horse if he had spent his early years in the hunt field ?

That is sooo true.

I hve ridden a wide variety of horses in the hunt field, everything from season foxhunters to horses just off the track. Even though I can get the job done on any of them, the well trained ones, the ones that can be influenced by a very subtle cue, make for a MUCH more enjoyable day of hunting.

[wateryglen]

I absolutely agree with what ya"ll have said but.....I think a LOT of dressage riders are not well educated about the horse handling himself thing or thinking for himself. I see a lot of bad dressage around here that I can't see how it would help a potential or current fieldhunter. Schooling, training, self carriage, responsive to the leg etc is all good stuff. But I don't think the endless schooling in circles or lunging in draw reins or whatever is really going to help. I'm of the school that you need to train in conditions close to what you're going to be asking the horse to do ie: similar footing, conditions, etc. I think horses develop different muscles doing dressage than they might in a field. I really have a problem with the "bending at the poll" thing, cranked noses to the chest and mouth pulling I see in the lower levels of dressage. Just too much "on contact".

So I guess I'm whining that some dressage done by some people is not good for fieldhunters. AND I'm saying some dressage done by some other people is great! Overall I like to say that a potential fieldhunter benefits from good flatwork schooling!!! See?!!!

[AnotherRound]

I would think that having your horse move with his hind end underhim, and a light front end, in other words, a good, strong, supportive engine, using his back correctly with the strength an muscling throught the back dressage would bring would be an increible asset in the field. He could maneuver better, he would not be hauling on the mouth or heavy on the forehand, he would be able to get his front end up and away and get over the jumps well, strong haunches and hocks make for clever, quick sure footedness.

I had a QH who could sit back on his haunches, do rollbacks, etc. and get me out of any mess.

[whicker]

Wateryglen,

Bad riding is bad riding. You are right that there is poor dressage and lousy trail and cross country skills in our neck of the woods. Many dressage riders haven't learned the great outdoors skills. Some are petrified of "forward" much less being out of the arena or indoor. There are many horses that are not suited to hunting, as well.

Just as you would bring along new entry, they need encouragement and guidance in a positive way. They don't know how much they don't know. But if they develop the passion, then hopefully, they will want to learn.

[Grasshopper]

I was thinking about the belief - held by some, but clearly not all - that taking an event horse to a high level of dressage "ruins" him for x-c, because he learns to wait for instructions rather than thinking for himself.

Having paid some attention to Wofford's comments along these lines, I think his point, at least, was more that the increased focus and time spent by many modern eventers on schooling dressage, without corresponding time and focus on balance and independence cross-country, was leading to horses who don't think for themselves XC.

That said, I think some amount of correct "dressage" schooling benefits any horse--makes them more responsive, more supple, and stronger. At some point--the FEI levels, maybe?--I think it is very hard to develop the muscles they need to compete successfully at that level and also get them in condition for hunting--the long, lean muscles.

Between the way in which Salinero has been trained and his reputed temperament, combined with his strength and athleticism, I'm not sure I'd want to be the one to try hunting him!

[kt-rose]

I definitely feel my 'eventing dressage' is good for my hunt horse!! Not sure about the real thing :) but two days a week of flatwork as correct as I can make it -- perhaps, maybe, on a good day, first level work -- is good for his rideability, straightness and strength. He gets the day after hunting off and then the next day is always a 'stretchy' dressage school followed by a stroll in the woods. Long and low really helps straighten and stretch anything that might be tight after hunting.

As far as making sure he continues to think for himself, well, the boy is smart enough to know -- and has done enough cross country with me :eek::eek::eek:-- that if it is big and solid, he's totally in charge of the jumps. And that the distance I see might not be the best plan. But seriously, we focus on one thing in our dressage schools and another in the jump schools. On the flat, it is about correct and rideable, to the jumps it is about teaching him to be clever, safe and to make the right choice all on his own in front of the jump. The two are not incompatible at this level. At the upper levels it's a whole 'nother conversation.

Both of us like the hunting days best!!!!!

[Beverley]

Between the way in which Salinero has been trained and his reputed temperament, combined with his strength and athleticism, I'm not sure I'd want to be the one to try hunting him!

Me neither, but I do want to be there to watch.:)

It was in the hunting field, watching a tb pull some antics, that I first heard the phrase 'Paint him white and send him to Vienna!'

[Foxtrot's]

When I used to go to England more often I was fortunate to be able to ride the Hunt horses.
Oh my - they were like riding a 2x4's. In wide open country they went fantastically, handled themselves like cats and could jump anything. But as far as listening to my asking them to steady up before a jump, or even slow down, they knew their job and I wasn't asking/telling them anything.

So, as far as show dressage goes, with all the 'tricks', I don't think it is that necessary, but my own horses were eventers and I sure preferred their level of education.

[JSwan]

Me neither, but I do want to be there to watch.:)

It was in the hunting field, watching a tb pull some antics, that I first heard the phrase 'Paint him white and send him to Vienna!'

I might ride that horse on a bet - but you'd have to hog tie me and pour a lot of Scotch down my throat first. :winkgrin:

Love that quip - I too have seen some antics that left me slack jawed in wonder. :lol: Glad I wasn't on any of the horses - mine was bad enough!

[lesbrill54]

Well, I guess I'm definitely in the minority here-I'd say no. Of course if you are going to define any form of flatwork as dressage, you'd have to say yes, but while movements like turn on the forehand and haunches, leg yielding etc occur in dressage tests, so do walk trot and canter. Merely being obedient and adjustable is not dressage, as anyone who has taken a quiet schoolie in a dressage test and looked at their marks would agree. You could take a stabilized horse in a test and do the whole thing on voice and loose reins and it wouldn't be dressage. Real dressage maintains a level of energy even in slow movements, i.e. collected gaits which is detrimental in field riding. Also, dressage work, by shifting the horse into central balance tends to limit the horse's use of the head and neck for balance, which is critical for both jumping and galloping X-country. (so i guess my forward riding bias is now apparent, but Ive made hunt horses for over thirty years, and its worked well for me.

[Valentina_32926]

... But I don't think the endless schooling in circles or lunging in draw reins ... I really have a problem with the "bending at the poll" thing, cranked noses to the chest and mouth pulling I see in the lower levels of dressage.

This is not dressage - just poor riding and training disguised as dressage.

Real dressage is done with young horses in Europe so that when their bodies are mature enough to jump the horse already knows straightness (so less shoulder popping in tight turns), knows how to expand (lengthen) or contract (collect) strides so jumps are taken correctly, know how to "sit" on their hind ends so they can turn tightly and jump with power.

Poor riding is everywhere. :( Lumping poor dressage as the "norm" is no more correct than people who say that hunter riders ride with no contact (allows horses to pop shoulders and get strung out). :D Neither is correct.

[PaddyUK]

Any time that you can influence your horse's movement with very subtle cues is a benefit. Flying changes around sharp corners were always useful. When I fieldmastered my mare would go for miles in a relaxed and stunning extended trot whilst all the rest followed at a gallop. Lateral work is very useful for getting out of the way and half halts, without use of the hands, are a much better way to rate a horse that has to work hard for several hours. My mare was an avid and keen hunter in the winter and an impressive dressage horse in the summer. Maybe Salinero would have been a very different horse if he had spent his early years in the hunt field ?

I agree.

My old dressage horse was used as FM horse early in his training and hunting him was a joy.

I am hoping this one (other lad died last year) will prove to be as good.

Paddy

[Painted Wings]

I do think that dressage work helps both you and the horse. You learn how to balance them up going down a hill etc. My highest trained dressage horse is also the most comfortable for me to hunt. He basically goes balanced and on the bit the whole time in the hunt field and is very adjustable. I can make course and speed ajustments with my seat rather than having to yank. The horse is balanced and quick as a cat anyway so don't know how he would have been in the field without the training.

On the flip side the foxhunting has really opened up his gaits and improved his dressage scores. Being a Paint horse with stock horse breeding he can tend toward being short strided and getting quicker rather than longer in stride for the lengthenings.

He does fabulous trot lengthenings in the hunt field which do carry over to his dressage tests. His canter stride has also gotten longer and he has more strength and therefore more suspension.

He's still a brat though.

[gypsymare]

He's a lovely brat!!

My Paint is the leggy, long-backed Thoroughbred type who lives for the gallop. Dressage training teaches her to listen to my seat, lighten from the leg instead of the bridle and develop the muscles to carry herself in a slow canter to match pace with the rest of the field. In the heat of the chase it doesn't always work ("ZOMG we're running, we're running! Let me go!!!") , but it's a nice premise... Leg yielding is incredibly important for avoiding smashed kneecaps while slaloming through the trees at a gallop. It also helps with gates as someone mentioned. It also taught ME to use my seat more and it really benefited with a big draft cross mare I rode last week who really lightened up as soon as I rode off my seat. Without dressage I might not have known how to use my body best to influence her.

That being said, my mare has become much cattier since starting hunting. I trust her to figure out where to put her feet on trappy ground and I don't micromanage. She needs to figure it out on her own. Afterall, it's not MY feet hitting the ground, she needs to figure out how to best keep us right side up.