AQHA Pleasure Driving...

[nfld_pony]

I don't understand this at all...

photo 1 (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/spicey_chicken/daily-photo-july-8.jpg)

photo 2 (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/spicey_chicken/commanderontheraildriving2.jpg)

photo 3 (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/spicey_chicken/artfulencounter.jpg)

Just looking at those harnesses and carts makes me cringe. They do against ever fitting standard. They look like mini carts with shafts that are miles too long. And the people! They have their arms out in the air like their hanging laundry. Not to mention the rein handling... And not holding the whip? There's no way you can grab it out in case of emergency!

Why the horses head is down there, I'll never know....

The traces aren't straight to the singletree. They'll rub, wear and weaken the harness in just a few uses!

Seems strange to me... Goes against every point I've ever been taught.

Can anyone tell me the purpose of all this?

[Renae]

I hear the train a-comin, comin round the bend...

Seriously do you want the answers from people actually involved with this type of driving or do you want to normal bashing of breed show pleasure driving and how horrible and wrong anything that is not carriage driving, coaching or combined driving that usually happens on this board?

[Muleskick]

I hear the train a-comin, comin round the bend...

Seriously do you want the answers from people actually involved with this type of driving or do you want to normal bashing of breed show pleasure driving and how horrible and wrong anything that is not carriage driving, coaching or combined driving that usually happens on this board?

Well said, seriously are you trying to pick a fight? Like my grandmother always said we can't all like the same thing (or there wouldn't be enough to go around).
(I did show my AQHA hunter under saddle horse in pleasure driving a few times enough to qualify for the World Championships.)
Okay last time I wonder onto the driving section of the board, don't want to get shot.

[nfld_pony]

i'm asking because i want to know. why does it look so strange? why's everything so aloof?

[092556]

style over safety, kind of like wearing high heels.

[KellyS]

Not trying to "start" anything, but I don't get this style of driving either.

And I came from the AQHA world--showed many years in the youth division competing at the Worlds, Congress, and earning numerous year end awards. I truly love quarter horses and they really do have to be saints to put up with some of the training I witnessed. I know you can say that about any horse sport but the artificial head sets and gaits just don't sit right with me.

Basically the horses doing the pleasure driving are just hunt seat horses pulling a carriage (well whatever you call those carts). It is so specialized now that the driving gives those type of horses another class to compete in, especially if they don't jump. If you have a horse that can do the hunter under saddle, equitation, showmanship, and driving classes (as an amateur) you have a good shot at all around awards even if the horse doesn't compete in the western classes (although they can often cross over and do western horsemanship or riding). The majority of people driving in those classes know just enough not to get hurt...they don't know anything about driving, just how to get in and steer.

It was a breath of fresh air to switch over to the dressage/eventing world and now carriage driving/combined driving. Function over form--the attention to harness and carriage fit, driving forward into the contact, using the whip as an aid, and being able to drive out and about (not just in a ring) requires true skills as a whip and, at least in my opinion, results in horses very happy in their jobs. Again, I'm not saying what happens in some breed shows is wrong, but it's not my cup of tea.

For what it's worth, my quarter horse gelding was quite happy to switch over to the hunter world and side saddle...he could finally move forward and not have to go with that low headset. He cracks me up though...he's 20 now and retired on our farm...he may not have shown in a showmanship class for 10 years but you jiggle the leadline and he sets himself up square. Old habits die hard.

[Renae]

i'm asking because i want to know. why does it look so strange? why's everything so aloof?

Certain people on this board have repeatedly harshly bashed breed show pleasure driving and those of us who participate in it get sick and tired of it and just don't participate in discussions on this board. But to answer your questions legitimatly:

Two handed driving is the norm, the way the horses are asked to travel both in frame and type of gait is best achieved with two handed reinsmanship. Personally I prefer to hold a whip at all times, but others prefer not to if they feel their horse never beeds it and there is no rule saying you must have or hold a whip.

The head carriage is what these horses are bred for, a level topline is ideal.

I wrap traces around the shaft on a pleasure cart or bike when I have a horse or pony that is not going to like it if the trace touches his side (not like it as in change his way of going in any miniscule way, winning or losing a tough class can come down to the tiniest thing). One or two wraps at most, and I prefer to go straight back when I can. Wrapping traces on shafts does not damage the traces or the shafts, my boss's cart and harness are 25-30 years old and still in wonderful condition.

When looking at the cart and style of harness think one second about the function of it- it needs to travel as easily as possible on various types of footing in level arenas in a manner that is very easy for the horse to pull so that the horse can exhibit to the standards of the class as best as possible. This is not an appointments class in any way, as long as you are satisfying the rule requirements equipment does not matter, the horse's performance does. Also the carts need to be easily portable as many times these horses are with trainers who are bringing many carts and harnesses to a show for their clients- this last weekend the barn I work for went to a show with 7 horses and brought 3 pleasure carts and a fine harness buggy. All 3 of the pleasure carts fit on the roof of the horse trailer and the fine harness buggy in the back of my Ford Ranger. If we would have had to bring 3 meadowbrooks and a 4 wheeled carriage we would have need a seperate truck and cargo trailer and the customers who were driving would have each gotten another fee added on to their show bills, it's just impractical.

[Yip]

Please tell me how you put those carts on the trailer roof. I can't imagine how many people it would take, and how they could climb/lift them up that high.

Also do you ever have problems going through a gas station with a roof over the pumps?

[Renae]

They are light, it only takes 3 people to get them up, and the trailer with carts on top is about 13' tall, never had a problem at a gas station.

Our trailer has a roof rack, on person on the ground pushes and two people lift, easy peasy.

[Tiffani B]

It takes two to three people to get the carts on a trailer. One person stands on the trailer and pulls/guides it up, and the other person is on the ground lifting. They weigh about 200 pounds. Sometimes two on the ground if it's a wooden wheeled cart, much heavier.

These carts are designed to be pulled in the manner you see. Carriages and meadowbrooks and other carts you are more used to seeing are designed to be pulled the way THEY are pulled. These carts are balanced, light, the driver's seat is level to the ground, there is no undue strain on the shaft hangers...

Applying knowledge equally from one discipline to another can lead to some VERY incorrect conclusions, as there are gaps in the education and assumptions are made to fill those gaps in. These horses are trained differently, the drivers have a different skill set, and the conditions under which they compete lend themselves to this style of driving without any of the problems you are concerned about.

Same type of cart (bigger wheels) on Saddlebreds.

http://www.facebook.com/vlayne?v=photos&ref=profile#/photo.php?pid=8824561&id=556685541

http://www.facebook.com/vlayne?v=photos&ref=profile#/photo.php?pid=5732203&id=556685541

[nfld_pony]

Basically the horses doing the pleasure driving are just hunt seat horses pulling a carriage (well whatever you call those carts).

Clearly. I saw a man riding english on youtube doing an AQHA class. she horse was doing the "I'm a lame QH" lope and he was riding like a western rider.. they all were... it's just in english attire.


Why is it called "Pleasure driving" then? It's surely no pleasure with your arms up in the air like that. You'll loose circulation! And looking up the horse's patoot can't be a pleasure either. Can they see where they're going?


I think saying those carts are used for the sake of being small is a crock too. I do the pleasure driving circuit here (not AQHA) and we take lots of carts with us too. The shafts on mine (a pacific carriage) are removable, so they come off and take up no room at all. It's certainly not going on any roof though.

I just think they'll all do a lot better if the horse's harness fit and the cart did too.

The saddlebred photos posted look sooo much better. At least the shafts are close to level. Let's just get those silly shoes off.

And the line of contact with the bit is just terrible. The horses mouth is about a foot from the ground, so the lines go up up up to the terrets then down down down to the lady in the 1980's blazer modeled after Blanche from the golden girls that's driving in the mini's cart with extra long shafts.


I just don't get it.



I'm bringing this us as someone on another forum asked me to help her driving her QH, and I just laughed. I'm soo CDE and real pleasure driving it's not funny.

Plus I can't pull of the shoulder pads like some. :lol::lol:

[Tiffani B]

The carts and driving style were developed in America. They are based on light road carts (racing sulkies, etc). And of course you can see where you're going.

There has already been a thread or two about the shafts being level. These carts are not designed to have level shafts. Level shafts do not mean anything when you are discussing THESE types of carts. YOUR type of cart - yes, it has meaning.

I won't comment on the breed specific criticisms (head carriage, speed, etc) or attire because those are matters of taste and as we all know, taste is neither right or wrong.

[hitchinmygetalong]

I won't comment on the breed specific criticisms (head carriage, speed, etc) or attire because those are matters of taste and as we all know, taste is neither right or wrong.

But what is done to fulfill the current "taste" (i.e. fad) CAN be right or wrong.

The low head carriage on the Quarter Horses has turned me off for years and years. It seems so unnatural. Tell me, how do you achieve it?

[nuts4cowboybutts]

Whatever butters your biscuit...

Whatever floats your boat...

Whatever tickles your fancy...



If that's your tree...go climb it.

[goodhors]

nfld pony, your response to the very nice replies of Renae and Tiffany is rather rude. You asked to be educated in what the JUDGES of the QH style are looking at. The equipment used by both QH and Saddlebreds is THEIR STYLE equipment. It makes the LOOK they desire for showing their animals.

Why the carts are small is clearly explained, light weight, build, is very desirable for a multitude of reasons. Just really different from Carriage Driving or CDE desires. Neither is a WRONG use of horse with attachments behind, but they are not similar uses for those quite different driving wants.

And then to "mock" the class names, mannerisms that are the current style, is kind of out of line. Carriage Driving or the CDE folks can look quite odd to other horse users with our "traditional" requirements on the rule book. There are a lot more folks enjoying the breed shows, assorted classes they present, than the total of carriage driving folks combined with the fun pleasure driving folks! Breed folks are firmly convinced their choices are the right ones.

No one should go beyond saying that another person's driving discipline is "Really Different!" after viewing it. You can ask questions to learn more, but slamming stuff you know little about is showing your ignorance. The breed shows have evolved to their present form, with style or current fads being used. May change in the future, but it is their choice to do it. No one is FORCING you to participate.

Might interest you to know that the well-shod Saddlebreds with the longer toes, are usually much sounder, last longer in competitons or being used, wearing those special shoes, than the low levels of Dressage horses last in use. I found that quite interesting myself, since Dressage is supposed to be a "kinder and more normal horse activity".

Clearly. I saw a man riding english on youtube doing an AQHA class. she horse was doing the "I'm a lame QH" lope and he was riding like a western rider.. they all were... it's just in english attire.

Why is it called "Pleasure driving" then? It's surely no pleasure with your arms up in the air like that. You'll loose circulation! And looking up the horse's patoot can't be a pleasure either. Can they see where they're going?

I think saying those carts are used for the sake of being small is a crock too. I do the pleasure driving circuit here (not AQHA) and we take lots of carts with us too. The shafts on mine (a pacific carriage) are removable, so they come off and take up no room at all. It's certainly not going on any roof though.

I just think they'll all do a lot better if the horse's harness fit and the cart did too.

The saddlebred photos posted look sooo much better. At least the shafts are close to level. Let's just get those silly shoes off.

And the line of contact with the bit is just terrible. The horses mouth is about a foot from the ground, so the lines go up up up to the terrets then down down down to the lady in the 1980's blazer modeled after Blanche from the golden girls that's driving in the mini's cart with extra long shafts.

I just don't get it.

[shawneeAcres]

Clearly. I saw a man riding english on youtube doing an AQHA class. she horse was doing the "I'm a lame QH" lope and he was riding like a western rider.. they all were... it's just in english attire.


Why is it called "Pleasure driving" then? It's surely no pleasure with your arms up in the air like that. You'll loose circulation! And looking up the horse's patoot can't be a pleasure either. Can they see where they're going?


I think saying those carts are used for the sake of being small is a crock too. I do the pleasure driving circuit here (not AQHA) and we take lots of carts with us too. The shafts on mine (a pacific carriage) are removable, so they come off and take up no room at all. It's certainly not going on any roof though.

I just think they'll all do a lot better if the horse's harness fit and the cart did too.

The saddlebred photos posted look sooo much better. At least the shafts are close to level. Let's just get those silly shoes off.

And the line of contact with the bit is just terrible. The horses mouth is about a foot from the ground, so the lines go up up up to the terrets then down down down to the lady in the 1980's blazer modeled after Blanche from the golden girls that's driving in the mini's cart with extra long shafts.


I just don't get it.



I'm bringing this us as someone on another forum asked me to help her driving her QH, and I just laughed. I'm soo CDE and real pleasure driving it's not funny.

Plus I can't pull of the shoulder pads like some. :lol::lol:

I am not "into" driving, other than my stallion went off and learned to drive last winter. He learned to drive to this type of cart (the two wheeled "pleasure" type) and that is the "norm" for around here. I have no intention of ever doign CDE with him. I also got some "not so nice" comments about the equipment and driver (my farrier who is a TOP driving trainer). THe OP on this post IS looking to "Stir the pot" not for information, as is obvious from her last post! Why?! My farrier, who has won more national awards than I am SURE most others on this board, and KNOWS how to train and drive pleasure morgans, roadster hackneys, fine harness saddlebreds etc did an incredible job with my stallion. He is concienciious, safe and knows what he is doing. I recognize the difference between differetn types of driving and respect each breed/type and what they prefer. Perhaps the OP should do the same, or mind their own business!!!!

[Sithly]

This type of talk is best saved for gossiping in the tackroom with the other teenage girls. Or better yet, keep it to yourself. Posting things like this in public shows a marked lack of class.

It's not clever and it's not funny.



Clearly. I saw a man riding english on youtube doing an AQHA class. she horse was doing the "I'm a lame QH" lope and he was riding like a western rider.. they all were... it's just in english attire.


Why is it called "Pleasure driving" then? It's surely no pleasure with your arms up in the air like that. You'll loose circulation! And looking up the horse's patoot can't be a pleasure either. Can they see where they're going?


I think saying those carts are used for the sake of being small is a crock too. I do the pleasure driving circuit here (not AQHA) and we take lots of carts with us too. The shafts on mine (a pacific carriage) are removable, so they come off and take up no room at all. It's certainly not going on any roof though.

I just think they'll all do a lot better if the horse's harness fit and the cart did too.

The saddlebred photos posted look sooo much better. At least the shafts are close to level. Let's just get those silly shoes off.

And the line of contact with the bit is just terrible. The horses mouth is about a foot from the ground, so the lines go up up up to the terrets then down down down to the lady in the 1980's blazer modeled after Blanche from the golden girls that's driving in the mini's cart with extra long shafts.


I just don't get it.



I'm bringing this us as someone on another forum asked me to help her driving her QH, and I just laughed. I'm soo CDE and real pleasure driving it's not funny.

Plus I can't pull of the shoulder pads like some. :lol::lol:

[Cielo Azure]

nfld pony, your response to the very nice replies of Renae and Tiffany is rather rude. You asked to be educated in what the JUDGES of the QH style are looking at. The equipment used by both QH and Saddlebreds is THEIR STYLE equipment. It makes the LOOK they desire for showing their animals.

Why the carts are small is clearly explained, light weight, build, is very desirable for a multitude of reasons. Just really different from Carriage Driving or CDE desires. Neither is a WRONG use of horse with attachments behind, but they are not similar uses for those quite different driving wants.

And then to "mock" the class names, mannerisms that are the current style, is kind of out of line. Carriage Driving or the CDE folks can look quite odd to other horse users with our "traditional" requirements on the rule book. There are a lot more folks enjoying the breed shows, assorted classes they present, than the total of carriage driving folks combined with the fun pleasure driving folks! Breed folks are firmly convinced their choices are the right ones.

No one should go beyond saying that another person's driving discipline is "Really Different!" after viewing it. You can ask questions to learn more, but slamming stuff you know little about is showing your ignorance. The breed shows have evolved to their present form, with style or current fads being used. May change in the future, but it is their choice to do it. No one is FORCING you to participate.

Might interest you to know that the well-shod Saddlebreds with the longer toes, are usually much sounder, last longer in competitons or being used, wearing those special shoes, than the low levels of Dressage horses last in use. I found that quite interesting myself, since Dressage is supposed to be a "kinder and more normal horse activity".

Goodhors,

Thank you for writing that. I do get discouraged with this board sometimes as comments from the CDE/Peasure driving crowd (patronizing, rude, condesending) often shut down the people who like to just drive, use their horses for work-farm, breed shows (including drafts), do parades, pull, belong to groups that just want to have fun or go on fun drives.

Right or wrong, it makes this board another forum for one group of drivers (who believe strongly that the have the market on the ONLY true and correct driving methods/beliefs and principles). I know many, many people who have driven all their lives but won't participate in this forum, as they see it as too specialized and too mean spirited. I don't believe that this is true all the time, but it happens often enough...

[Bluey]

I also was surprised the first time I saw that kind of AQHA driving, used to standard driving, but got over it once I watched them go.:yes:

Mostly, I don't think those classes are to show what driving is, but that the horses are very versatile and can be driven, in a way that involves the least of carriage and other appointments, thus the little, oddly fitted carts and harnesses, that seem unsafe, compared with standard equipment.:p

Then, the first few times I saw combined driving, at speed, thru hairy obstacles, I thought that was comparable to bull riding, something only real extreme risk takers would do.:eek:

I can't even comment on the saddlebred driving, as facebook link is not open to all, but requires a password.
I am probably better off not knowing what is there.;)

When we ask about what we don't know much about, we are showing our ignorance, which is fine, that is why we ask.:cool:

When we listen to what we are told and learn, then we are showing that we are truly interested in knowing, were not just looking to showcase ourselves by being critical of others, which in the end just shows how little we know, as if it needed to be pointed out.:lol:

[KellyS]

Goodhors,

Thank you for writing that. I do get discouraged with this board sometimes as comments from the CDE/Peasure driving crowd (patronizing, rude, condesending) often shut down the people who like to just drive, use their horses for work-farm, breed shows (including drafts), do parades, pull, belong to groups that just want to have fun or go on fun drives.

Right or wrong, it makes this board another forum for one group of drivers (who believe strongly that the have the market on the ONLY true and correct driving methods/beliefs and principles). I know many, many people who have driven all their lives but won't participate in this forum, as they see it as too specialized and too mean spirited. I don't believe that this is true all the time, but it happens often enough...

Actually I've always considered this board one of the more "gentle" boards on COTH. :) I can only think of one situation where things really got wild--and that was the carriage wreck video. There is always going to be differences of opinion--and that's what makes discussion forums tick.

I hardly think there is a preponderance of CDE drivers here...I've always thought it was a nice collection of different disciplines. For example, Lost Farmer's posts on driving on his farm and the 4-H club activities. No one ever has said anything negative on those threads. And you've got Cartfall sharing about long distance driving, and then drivers going to pleasure shows. How about the lady who just shared her story of her percheron's show...only nice things said there as well.

I think it is one thing to criticize a sport you are not familiar with, but having been a very active AQHA competitor I definitely have concerns with safety and comfort aspects of their driving classes and equipment. But to do a couple laps around the ring it probably isn't that big of a deal.

I'm not condoning nfld's inflammatory remarks, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to then say that the forum is too specialized or too mean-spirited. If anything, it's dying a slow death due to lack of interesting discussion. Heck, anyone who posts to the CD-L knows that driving discussions can get pretty hot...the key is not to take them personally and if you feel the post is inflammatory, don't rise to the bait.

Carry on!

[SomethingDazzling]

I agree with Kelly that this board is doscile compared to how some of the others can be.
From what I can see from the photos, it is a controlled area and I'm sure if this was something that wasn't safe, then it wouldn't be continued with. From the Western Please shows I've gone to (to watch) with my sister & her paint, this is what the judges look for.
I am a CDE driver, and I have worked with other driving/riding disciplines - people have to take their "blinders" off to see that there are different ways of doing things in EVERY discipline. I know I drive a lot differently from other CDE drivers, and I don't always agree with my (heavily awarded) trainer. But my style works for me and my horses.
TO EACH HIS OWN!

[Tiffani B]

I can't even comment on the saddlebred driving, as facebook link is not open to all, but requires a password. I am probably better off not knowing what is there.;)

It's my Facebook page and should not require a password. And I'm not sure what you mean by you're better off not knowing what is there. I show my Saddlebred at the higher levels of our breed shows and am happy to answer any questions. As you said, asking questions is how you learn...

[Yip]

Pictures and videos on facebook are only visible to members. Of course anyone can become a member, but some of us still choose not to, and we miss some things. I can't view the saddlebred videos either.

Just mentioning it because if you want everyone to be able to see your videos and pics, you will have to upload them to a public site or vids to youtube, maybe. Maybe facebook users are fine with only members viewing, whatever.

Yip

[nfld_pony]

Here's your photo Tiffani, in a different link..
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs093.snc1/4953_209777490541_556685541_7206816_6104289_n.jpg

I like your horse! :-) I've started working with saddlebreds here... but they aren't the same look as yours.

[Bluey]

It's my Facebook page and should not require a password. And I'm not sure what you mean by you're better off not knowing what is there. I show my Saddlebred at the higher levels of our breed shows and am happy to answer any questions. As you said, asking questions is how you learn...

Sorry, a page comes up asking for my password.:confused:

I think that, no matter the value in principle to the ones participating in any discipline, just as this OP was startled and wondered about the differences between conventional driving and AQHA driving, I probably would be with saddlebred driving.

Not that I don't want to learn more, but it is hard for me to get past some saddlebred people do to their horses, just as saddlebred people had a hard time watching our jumping classes, worriedly gasping at every effort.:eek:
Like so much in life, it depends where you are, how you look at the way things are.

All of us have to learn to get along and know when we don't know enough.
That doesn't mean we have to automatically like what others do with their horses, interesting that it may seem.

[horsegeeks]

Since I straddle both worlds, I would like to make a couple of comments.

The pleasure driving carts and fine harness buggies are only used in the show and training rings, neither they nor the harness are designed to go in any kind of rough terrain.

Light, easy to pull, and show off the horse are what they are designed to do.

When I discovered wooden wheeled carts, I was estatic. I was able to safely drive my mares in the woods and over creeks ... without worrying about the wheels collapsing. I bought a pleasure driving harness and never looked back.

However, I when I attended a major combined driving show in Pensylvania was horrified at the condition and treatment of some the horses. I went to the show and saw horses treated in a way that I think of as cruel. One extemely wellbred Morgan was skin and bones with a dull dry coat. The well known owner thought that was "racing condition". 20+ years later I still shudder.

There are prejudices in both worlds. Ignorant and callous treatment of horses in both worlds.

Each world has its good points. Each its bad. Ask courteous questions and you'll usually get courteous responses.

I'm still at a loss as to why some decsions are made. I believe many decisions are made simply because "that's the way we've always done it"

[Tiffani B]

I have all of my facebook photo albums set so the world can view them, not just my friends or facebook members. Weird. I'll add them to my picasa account.

[KellyS]

However, I when I attended a major combined driving show in Pensylvania was horrified at the condition and treatment of some the horses. I went to the show and saw horses treated in a way that I think of as cruel. One extemely wellbred Morgan was skin and bones with a dull dry coat. The well known owner thought that was "racing condition". 20+ years later I still shudder.


If I read this right, what you saw at this CDE happened 20+ years ago. The sport has changed drastically since then, as have many other disciplines (including breed shows). I don't think this is the best example of showing the "bad side" of a discipline. But I concur with the rest of your post. :)

As to Facebook, you can certainly don't have to be a member to view pictures as long as the person posting the pics uses the "public" link provided underneath the album or picture on Facebook. Our website has many links to Facebook albums that are accessible to everyone. :yes:

[horsegeeks]

Basically the experience so upset me that I've avoided this end of the driving world since then.

I know that there are many devoted people in it. But I still remember that wonderful horse. Even more upsetting to me since I knew the horse before his purchase and entry into the CDE world.

But Donkeys and myself have a lot in common ... as my husband will testify! :)

[goodhors]

Actually I've always considered this board one of the more "gentle" boards on COTH. :) I can only think of one situation where things really got wild--and that was the carriage wreck video. There is always going to be differences of opinion--and that's what makes discussion forums tick.

I hardly think there is a preponderance of CDE drivers here...I've always thought it was a nice collection of different disciplines. For example, Lost Farmer's posts on driving on his farm and the 4-H club activities. No one ever has said anything negative on those threads. And you've got Cartfall sharing about long distance driving, and then drivers going to pleasure shows. How about the lady who just shared her story of her percheron's show...only nice things said there as well.

I think it is one thing to criticize a sport you are not familiar with, but having been a very active AQHA competitor I definitely have concerns with safety and comfort aspects of their driving classes and equipment. But to do a couple laps around the ring it probably isn't that big of a deal.

I'm not condoning nfld's inflammatory remarks, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to then say that the forum is too specialized or too mean-spirited. If anything, it's dying a slow death due to lack of interesting discussion. Heck, anyone who posts to the CD-L knows that driving discussions can get pretty hot...the key is not to take them personally and if you feel the post is inflammatory, don't rise to the bait.

Carry on!

Nice post KellyS. I was not trying to be a thread killer, just thought some things might not have needed saying in that way.

You would hope some new folks are not too afraid to come ask questions or brag up their horse in any kind of driving. I think COTH is one of the nicest groups to talk driving on. I enjoy the variety of driving that gets discussed. It may seem very CDE because those posters keep us up on their outings more than other folks. In CDE some details get much attention because they can influence the results to a big degree. Pleasure driving has details that count greatly in the show ring as well, whether using Fine Harness or Carriage Harness. Safety can't be overlooked in any of the driving activities, keeps the shiny side up.

[SomethingDazzling]

horsegeeks ~ As you stated, that was 20+ years ago!!!!! Things have changed drastically.....in all disciplines! Hell, I think the horses have it better off at a CDE than most of the owners, and definitly the hired grooms! Having a horse at a CDE, or any show at that rate, would be completely unacceptable!, and I'm sure it would be addressed by officials. UGH!, sorry, I'm heading off on a completely different topic than what this thread. I'm just defending my sport.
However, I do agree with the rest of the first post you wrote.

[lalahartma1]

FYI: when I first tried to look at the facebook pictures, I was prompted to enter user name/password and when I did, I was told they were not public. I closed the browser and tried again and was taken directly to the photos.

[Tiffani B]

OK, try this!

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=8824561&l=f2eecc8959&id=556685541

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5732203&l=b238e2f542&id=556685541

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=213705&id=556685541&l=6ec963fd56

Hopefully that will work.

[mypaintwattie]

Not to derail the thread- but I wandered over here from the other forums and was wondering if those of you with experience with AQHA/APHA pleasure driving PM me? I am a total novice when it comes to driving, but have decided that I want to continue my mare's driving training, and being that we show on the breed circuit these are the types of classes we will be doing. TIA.

[Drive NJ]

MyPaintWattie - you wouldn't be derailing the thread, but bringing it back to its original supposed point - "talk to me about QH driving classes"

For the CDE defenders (and I am often one of them) - Lots more fun picking on QHs than having someone poke at CDEs isn't it? And, unfortunately some of those changes over the past 20 years haven't always been in the best interest of the horses or the sport.

20 years ago you could drive Training and low level prelim in a roadcart or Meadowbrook, now you need a purpose built many thousand dollar marathon carriage or its nearly impossible to play the game - not very encouraging to beginners.

20 years ago marathon was also about pace - not very much any more - its all hazard speed - judges will bend over backward to find out what's wrong if someone actually has time penalties on course. Competitors think pacing the horse over the course is going so fast you almost have to walk in to make the minimum time etc.

20 years ago cones was about the horses ability to recover after the marathon and do a test of accuracy on Day 3 (actually most were Dressage, Cones then marathon even then) Someone decided it was 'boring' and that even though cones was never intended to be an equallizer it should be more important. Now we have a giant hazard with measured short courses and super tight cones for advanced so the average non-involved spectator can't figure out why those drivers are called advanced cause they seem to be bowling rather than driving through the cones. And yes I have heard spectators make those sorts of comments.

20 years ago we had many fantastic drivers and some bad eggs - same now

Still love much about the sport, but I don't think some of the directions we are going in lead to better driving in all cases.

[Cartfall]

MyPaintWattie - you wouldn't be derailing the thread, but bringing it back to its original supposed point - "talk to me about QH driving classes"

For the CDE defenders (and I am often one of them) - Lots more fun picking on QHs than having someone poke at CDEs isn't it? And, unfortunately some of those changes over the past 20 years haven't always been in the best interest of the horses or the sport.

20 years ago you could drive Training and low level prelim in a roadcart or Meadowbrook, now you need a purpose built many thousand dollar marathon carriage or its nearly impossible to play the game - not very encouraging to beginners.

20 years ago marathon was also about pace - not very much any more - its all hazard speed - judges will bend over backward to find out what's wrong if someone actually has time penalties on course. Competitors think pacing the horse over the course is going so fast you almost have to walk in to make the minimum time etc.

20 years ago cones was about the horses ability to recover after the marathon and do a test of accuracy on Day 3 (actually most were Dressage, Cones then marathon even then) Someone decided it was 'boring' and that even though cones was never intended to be an equallizer it should be more important. Now we have a giant hazard with measured short courses and super tight cones for advanced so the average non-involved spectator can't figure out why those drivers are called advanced cause they seem to be bowling rather than driving through the cones. And yes I have heard spectators make those sorts of comments.

20 years ago we had many fantastic drivers and some bad eggs - same now

Still love much about the sport, but I don't think some of the directions we are going in lead to better driving in all cases.

Great post, DNJ,

It is a interesting to see how the sport has changed. I did not actually ever see one unti Live Oak 1993 and it took me a long time to get back to it.



As for the OP questions -- any sport is going to have different groups within that have totally different groups.

Breed shows are a personal choice. Not my cup of tea going around in circles in a show ring--been there done that BORING for me. Other folks may think I am crazy and unsafe for wanting to go blasting through the woods for 25 miles and tell me I am abusing my horse for driving him 40 or so miles a week in training. Others may want to blast Lost Farmer for making his horses pull those awful weights at horse pulls--OMG actually have a horse work as they did for eons before the internal combustion engine took their jobs.

Give it a rest and listen to the well written replies of those who are telling you to be a bit more objective and not subjective.

As for the way a breed goes in their show, every single breed has different ideals of what is perfect. The sad thing, so many things are done to horses to make them go "the perfect way"---not refering only to QH, Saddlebred, Morgan, Arabians, etc, .

And Kelly, it certainly has been quiet around here, too quiet all summer--I just assumed everyone was out driving their horses!!!!:yes:

I know I did !!!!

[Bluey]

OK, try this!

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=8824561&l=f2eecc8959&id=556685541

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5732203&l=b238e2f542&id=556685541

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=213705&id=556685541&l=6ec963fd56

Hopefully that will work.

Now the pictures show up.

Very unique, that I have to say, the way the horse goes.
The cart and harness seem a little more sturdy than in the pictures of the AQHA classes.
Those are very neat pictures.:)
Thanks for making them available.:yes:

[winfieldfarm]

okay, I have to chime in on this one.

I too straddle the fence, having grown up in the Saddlebred, Arab breed pleasure driving classes. I have only recently added carriage driving to my resume and I am hard pressed to want to show breed in the bike tire carts again.

Why? for the obvious, my arms get tired, I can't see but for my horse's blowhole and I know the cart isn't at it's best balance.

I don't know why so many QH people jack the shafts so high because it isn't necessary. I assume it makes their heads "look" lower. What this does do to the horse is put more of the pull on the underside of their girth line. Not the most comfortable. Just because our horses do it doesn't make it the best for them. I think a lower shaft line does not detract from the QH looking good.

The broken line of rein is unavoidable in most pleasure breeds whether your horse is low headed like QH or high headed like Saddlebred. What is important is the horse's manners and responsiveness to that particular driver and his rein skills. But it does get tiring having to hold your arms over your head.

Personally, I think breed driving could be made more comfortable for horse and driver by changing out the standard 24" bike tire for a larger wood wheel. We have many Jeralds and Houghtons running around with beautiful wood wheels on them and it does not detract from the horse's way of going or overall picture.

Now, one thing that I absolute disagree with in breed driving is the wrapping of the traces around the shafts. This has always raised my hackles for one reason, the horse's comfort. Wrapped traces do not allow the breast collar and single tree to move with the horse, therefore poor Dobbin's shoulders are being road rashed back and forth underneath the breast coller. Fine harness also has the handy shaft wrap strap at the tug loops, which most people mistakenly wrap excessively tight so as to squeeze the cart shafts in. Where does all that tightening pressure get transferred to? To top and bottom of the horse's barrel. And most times the shafts are wrapped down so tight around the saddle, the horse is pulling by the saddle, not the breast collar.

Again, just because ol' Dobbin mild mannerly goes around the ring for us, doesn't mean it's in his best interest.

I agree, for those of us that follow "traditional" physics of carriage driving, breed driving looks weird. but I feel with some minor adjustments and someone going out there just bucking the trend so to speak, breed driving can be improved to make the horse and driver more comfy, safe and balanced without detracting from the beauty of the individual breeds.

FWIW = you think QH in a bike is odd, you should see a big lick Walking Horse in fine harness viceroy! It's just....odd. you want to look away but find yourself staring!

[selah]

IMHO, the AQHA has been very good about evolving to meet the needs of it's membership. From allowing for TB blood (appendix registry) to create a taller horse with increased jumping abilities (and to contribute to the racing QH), to changing the "white rule" to allow for more varied colors, to rewriting the rules to state that the horse must show forward progress when it seemed as people were trying to lope their animals at a standstill! QHs can also now earn AQHA points for dressage. It doesn't seem to be a far cry for them to add other types of driving, as the AQHA "Pleasure Driving" popularity seems to be growing by leaps & bounds.
JMHO

[LostFarmer]

I have not even commented on this post and my name gets taken in vain. :lol:

In the end it all comes down to what you do with your animals. I have a good friend that has an awesome pair of driving mules. Not the kind of mule that you would take to a show but the kind that you can hook to a wagon and chore with. They will walk the edge of a feed ground with out a driver so he can pitch hay to the cattle they are broke to back, gee, haw and step on voice command. My horses are more in the bit and have much more sensitive steering. Just the way I like them. His mules work as a walk and occasionally walk. Mine trot hard and fast and occasionally walk. Which is better? It depends on if you are feeding cattle of headed to town.

LF

[War Admiral]

I have not even commented on this post and my name gets taken in vain. :lol:

:lol::lol::lol:

I'm another one who lives on both Planet ASB and Planet ADS. I still haven't decided which direction to point my new young'un toward, to be honest - it really depends what HE ends up wanting to do. But I definitely feel free to opine that there is Scary Stuff in both disciplines. ;)

[KellyS]

MyPaintWattie - you wouldn't be derailing the thread, but bringing it back to its original supposed point - "talk to me about QH driving classes"

For the CDE defenders (and I am often one of them) - Lots more fun picking on QHs than having someone poke at CDEs isn't it? And, unfortunately some of those changes over the past 20 years haven't always been in the best interest of the horses or the sport.

20 years ago you could drive Training and low level prelim in a roadcart or Meadowbrook, now you need a purpose built many thousand dollar marathon carriage or its nearly impossible to play the game - not very encouraging to beginners.

20 years ago marathon was also about pace - not very much any more - its all hazard speed - judges will bend over backward to find out what's wrong if someone actually has time penalties on course. Competitors think pacing the horse over the course is going so fast you almost have to walk in to make the minimum time etc.

20 years ago cones was about the horses ability to recover after the marathon and do a test of accuracy on Day 3 (actually most were Dressage, Cones then marathon even then) Someone decided it was 'boring' and that even though cones was never intended to be an equallizer it should be more important. Now we have a giant hazard with measured short courses and super tight cones for advanced so the average non-involved spectator can't figure out why those drivers are called advanced cause they seem to be bowling rather than driving through the cones. And yes I have heard spectators make those sorts of comments.

20 years ago we had many fantastic drivers and some bad eggs - same now

Still love much about the sport, but I don't think some of the directions we are going in lead to better driving in all cases.

I don't think anyone really needs to "defend" CDEs on this thread. The one example given was 20+ years old and that's the only thing that was pointed out. Same as if an example of AQHA from 20 years ago was given. So many things have changed in both worlds. :yes:

I think the points above merit their own discussion. It goes back to the question--how do you keep the 3 phases weighted correctly? As competitors become more and more competitive, it is all to easy for it to become a "dressage" show...where marathon and cones have no bearing on the end result. Not saying changes are right or wrong...somewhere in between...

Anyway, this is fun! Love the discussion. :)