Warmblood with "Issues"

[LauraKY]

We run an OTTB retraining farm and occasionally start young horses. We just had a 4 year old dutch warmblood x thoroughbred in for training. He was started late at 4. Owner had never worked on bitting until just recently. Was next to impossible to bit (owner now says he's always been that way, doesn't want anything in his mouth, next to impossible to worm, says she never got more than a 1/2 tube in him (I did get him wormed, however). Came in very underweight...about 200 lbs.

We had him here for 4 months. We spent the first month just putting some weight back on him. Extremely difficult to bit, so started him in a hackamore. Was going well at walk, trot in hackamore. Daughter/trainer separated her shoulder (different horse, mustang) and had to take some time off.

He was consigned with us for sale during this time. Lots of interest, horse had lots of potential. Was free jumping 4' with a 2'6" spread with room to spare. Client came to look at him and he was a little off. Also had windpuffs in front. Had the farrier come out and readjust (he had a serious scalping problem that he had been working on). Gave him bute for 5 days and 2 weeks off. Started him back in work and noticed that he was always cross cantering on the right lead, both in the round pen and free in the pasture. He also started a "bunny hop" type motion with back legs when slowing down from a center. Also became very aggressive. Had been pushy, but he was now charging people.

We free jumped him and he was jumping flat, misjudging his distance (going in too deep) and crashing into the rails. We had free jumped him several times in the past, never had the above problems. Horse was not overworked for his age. Worked 4 to 5 times per week/30 to 45 minute sessions.

Called owner. Told her our vet, over the phone, said could be a stifle or back problem. Owner says she is broke at this point. Decided not to use our vet (Lexington) said she would pick him up and take him home to "her vet" (lives in southern Kentucky, no vets specializing in equine lameness there, that I know of.) Of course, she couldn't load horse. (she says "he's never done that before". Yeah, right.

Two weeks later. Just talked to owner. Says he looks "fine". I don't think she knows what cross cantering is or is unable to recognize it. She "says" she called her vet when she got him home and he said to give him 4 weeks off and then see if there's a problem. Said vet didn't need to see him????

I'm really curious as to what might be going on. Horse was feed only oats, hay, grass and cocasoya as weanling/yearling. Owner admits she didn't know much about raising horses (he was her first foal). I'm thinking a stifle issue or OCD.

Any thoughts, just to satisify my own curiosity? His sire was only shown in hand, so I'm suspicious about the OCD.

I'll probably never know the truth. Owner seems to bend it a lot.

What do you think?

[JB]

Stifles, hocks, SI, pelvis.

Can anyone get a GOOD chiro to look at him?

Poor guy :(

[LauraKY]

Don't think she will since she hasn't had a vet look at him. If he were mine it would have been vet first, chiro second. We did notice some sensitivity along back at the same time. Told owner no work until checked by vet! So she took him home. Too bad, he was a really talented jumper. Not the most pleasant horse in the world, but hey, if you've got talent.....

[RiverBendPol]

www.ruralheritage.com

[Dressage_Diva333]

I, also, would think stifle or back.

I used to know a Dressage horse with fairly extensive stifle problems. He was a grand old school master, but would demonstrate some of what you are describing. In the flying changes, he would jump "together" behind, or not swith at all behind. Not a training issue, he was a good horse, and when he felt good, he was great.

Is there a reason why this horse was started late (not that I'm saying it's a bad thing, I'm an advocate for waiting a little longer to start youngsters)? Is there a chance he could have flipped or something in the cross ties?

[LauraKY]

Very novice owner/breeder (he was her first). She didn't know that you should be working on their mouths. Didn't know that having an extremely difficult time worming would present a problem (he's 17.2hh now and she calls it the one hour "game" they play). I got wormer in fine when he first arrived, but he was scared and very underweight. Second time I made her come up and do it because she was still on the "he's never done that before kick". Truth came out when she spent an hour and only got 1/2 tube of wormer in. He's really pushy and had limited ground training. She told us he was solid "1st level Parelli". I hate it when people watch a tape and think they know everything there is to know!

Never been in a barn and never been in cross ties! From the way he reacted, don't think he had ever been bathed. Certainly, not clipped. Took the vet 45 minutes to tranq him for teeth floating. Of course, "that never happened before".

Says she was told that "all" dressage people start their horses late. We don't usually like to start a horse after three, but he had a lot of potential, this guy's free jumping was amazing.

He did have an injury as a foal with a nasty scar on foreleg. Owner says he got caught up in a fence.

Owner talked a good story. As it always does, the truth started to come out little by little (how can you hide no ground training?).

I will probably never know the complete truth. Sad thing is she has two others: a 3 1/2 year old filling and a weanling. Trying to unload them all. Says she's decided to go into dog breeding instead. So what does she choose to breed? Rhodesian Ridgebacks. They need lots of structure and control. Don't think it's going to happen!

Really hate those backyard breeders (and we're done training their horses)!

[LauraKY]

We also noticed a personality change, became very aggressive, put it off on pain, but...

I don't like to say EPM, but you have to wonder. We have an EPM mustang in for training. He's been thoroughly treated and vet checked and is ready to go with no neuro symptoms (and is under saddle at the walk already), but from what the mustang owner says his symptoms were, it really started me thinking. He's a really cute little guy. She's going to use him for jousting!

[shawneeAcres]

THis could be SO many things. A vet exam is needed to rule out certain issues and help to narrow the possibilities

[Gayla]

It is so hard to hear stories like this. Poor guy. The possibilities are endless. If he has been sitting on his butt for all these years he might have just gotten really sore...all over. If you are accustomed to working with TBs OTT then your expectations of fitness might have been high. My experience is that horses take a good long time to get fit and the interim is injury prone. It doesn't matter how he got hurt...he needs to see the vet.

[Dalemma]

You might want to look in PSSM........you said he was underweight .....and if you started feeding him more with better quality hay and are feeding him grain if he has PSSM.........he would become sore due to the increased amount of sugar in his diet. A blood test will pick up 80% of these cases.

My quarter horses started to show symptom in the spring of his third year.....it became evident that some thing was a miss after I started turning him out on pasture after having been in gravel paddocks for the winter.........but it took me over 18 months to figure out what the problem was........he was eventually diagnosed via a muscle biopsy at the age of 5.

This genetic disorder usually developes between the ages of 2 to 6 years of age

My guy also started cross cantering out of the blue both in the round pen and under saddle when he had always had the correct lead........the other thing I noticed was how tight his tail was and when he moved it was always twitching or going like a helipcopter.......plus his muscles were rock hard to the touch........the other thing he stared to do which is totally out of character for him was too try and buck you off and if that didn't work he would rear........his muscles were so sore that he could not take the weight of the rider........my guy happens to have a lot of muscle involvement which leaves him unrideable.

Dalemma

[LauraKY]

Ah, yes could be. He was with another trainer (who has a reputation for underfeeding horses) for 2 months. We feed Safechoice feed and I was supplementing with Empower. Had to feed him 8 lbs pellets and 3 lbs Empower per day with free choice grass (with high RFV) hay and pasture to get his weight up. That's more than we feed a thin OTTB! Owner "said" he was not a hardkeeper before, but it is really hard to know what is true and what's not.

He was on oats at owners and "had no problems". So, I just don't know. I will suggest it to her, though.

[sidepasser]

Please be careful since you don't know the "full story" - that is how I had my horrible horse wreck. Lady sent TB mare to me for a "tune up", just neglected to say mare hadn't been ridden in FIVE years and had been running wild on a 100 acre pasture only being handled for hooves and worming. Perfect ground manners and a keg of dynamite under saddle.

Be careful and take all owner says with a shovel of salt.

[LauraKY]

Oh, believe me, we do. Even the best owners shade the truth. First we do a neuro check. Always start with a minimum of 2 weeks of ground work. This guy had 4 weeks of ground work (a lot of that was manners...very pushy) and was going very well at walk/trot in a hackamore for 30 days. Then he just fell apart. He also was on individual turnout because owner separated him from herd when young because she "was afraid he would get hurt". Pretty sure there was no pasture accident while he was here, he was right in front of our house. Poor guy. We tried introducing him to a friend, but he got too beat up, just never learned when to quit.

He had been with another trainer for 60 days, but, judging from his condition and lack of training, I really believe she just threw him out in a pasture. Did not act like he had ever been backed.

[cloudyandcallie]

Jumping a young wb can cause lots of lameness issues.

Best advice I ever got was from Sherri Donaldson in Bluffton, who explained to me that a 7 yr old wb was the equivalent of a 2 yr old TB.
So I learned not to jump my 5 yr old wb a lot till he matured physically.

As for the issue of weight, WBs tend to be portly, so they either get hacked 45 minutes a day, or they get fat.

Yes WBs can jump 3 and 4 foot jumps beautifully when they are 4 yrs old; no they shouldn't be doing that till they are older and can handle the concussion.

As for personality changes, read the WB books for info: The tag line is "never let a wb know he is bigger than you are." They change from sweet innocent "babies" to demanding teutonic tyrants if they aren't taught to respect you every day.

[LauraKY]

Only free jumped him three times. Weeks apart. No more than 3 runs at the chute. First time 12", 18", 24", 2nd time 24, 36, 48. Third time...no go, couldn't jump 12 inches. No jumping under saddle. He was a jumper prospect. According to owner would free jump cross country jumps, on his own, in the field. Had to have a free jump video and had to evaluate him for sale. We are very careful not to overwork young horses.

As for the personality, we are VERY big on respect. He had been taught respect. Although still on the pushy side, (had to be reinforced frequently) he had learned to: not bite, walk quietly on a lead, back up, wait for dinner, wait at gate until given permission to pass, stand in cross ties for grooming and bath, stand for farrier. We handle thoroughbred stallions and the first thing they are taught is respect. The personality change came, in a very short period of time, in conjunction with the lameness problem which makes me think aggression due to pain or a disease process.

My baby is a 17.1hh OTTB, raced for 8 years, gelded at 10. Heck of a biter when he came in and would walk right over you. Knew he was big and would take full advantage! He is now the most respectful, dependable horse in the barn. Stunning too, a dark bay beauty.

[LauraKY]

As for the issue of weight, WBs tend to be portly, so they either get hacked 45 minutes a day, or they get fat.

This guy was a very hard keeper. Eight lbs grain a day, 3 lbs 22% fat supplement and free choice premium hay. Just to keep the weight on. And he was a thoroughbred cross.

[Riley0522]

This guy was a very hard keeper. Eight lbs grain a day, 3 lbs 22% fat supplement and free choice premium hay. Just to keep the weight on. And he was a thoroughbred cross.

That screams digestive issues to me. I know everyone wants to jump to ulcers, but I really believe it could be that. Ulcers would also explain the off canter and the flat jumping. Cantering and jumping hurts when they have ulcers.

I learned the hard way, ruled everything else out before thinking it was ulcers. Well, it was ulcers and lots of them and my poor horse was trying to tell me. He was swapping behind at the canter, real jumpy and bolty at the canter. Jumping he'd either grab the bit and flat out gallop a few strides out and LEAP it, or he'd get really deep and practically crash through it (these were small fences...).

Anyways, he was getting a lot of grain. At one point, probably 8lbs/day. We could not keep weight on him...even with all the grain he was barely maintaining. Vets said to pull all grain, do a ration balancer/alfalfa pellets and free choice hay or grass. It's literally been a week since we pulled most of his grain and started the Gastrogard, and he has literally already put a ton of weight on.

[Underdog]

How does a 4 yo get ulcers? Or even a foal?
An honest question.
Is it axniety or the feed it gets?

If it's feed related....is it a lack of a certain nutrient or mineral?

I cringed a bit when I read this horse was in 4-5 days of work while being totally unaaclimated to the whole *training* thing as a 4 yo, and possibly limited with handling with it's original owner. And I'm not a trainer! I do the math too as a DIY'er.
Maybe overfaced in a new surrounding? Time to acclimate? Understand the routine?
I'm sure you ruled this all out....but I cover every inch mentally from their perspective.

What was her timeline for training board, and how quick did you have to get the job done?
Honest questions.

Can she do more as far as training...doe's he need more settle time?

I will share a bizarre thing that has worked for me. A nobody person.

Seperate him to be by himself. Totally.
He doesn't see another horse and has to be dependant on you. You then spend individual time hand grazing, etc. THen you will bond. ;-)

You will see a huge change IMO.

Too many times have I been there.
Best wishes with him!!!

[WW_Queen]

When my guy first went off, cross-cantering and general hindquarter problems were the first signs.

After 2 years of "missed"-diagnosis, it was mild arthritis in the hocks (improved 90% with back shoes, Recovery EQ/HA and 1x hock injections) but mainly a "fresh" hunters bump (really mucked with his SI). I had his SI injected as well.

Considering he's still young, I would think it would be more likely to be SI pain versus poor hocks (unless he's got something developing early?). It's very easy for them to screw up their SI in the field or jumping. My guy took 6 months to heal (his hind angles were off too, increasing his heels were necessary) but finally he's all better.

[LauraKY]

How does a 4 yo get ulcers? Or even a foal?
An honest question.
Is it axniety or the feed it gets?

If it's feed related....is it a lack of a certain nutrient or mineral?

I cringed a bit when I read this horse was in 4-5 days of work while being totally unaaclimated to the whole *training* thing as a 4 yo, and possibly limited with handling with it's original owner. And I'm not a trainer! I do the math too as a DIY'er.
Maybe overfaced in a new surrounding? Time to acclimate? Understand the routine?
I'm sure you ruled this all out....but I cover every inch mentally from their perspective.

What was her timeline for training board, and how quick did you have to get the job done?
Honest questions.

Can she do more as far as training...doe's he need more settle time?

I will share a bizarre thing that has worked for me. A nobody person.

Seperate him to be by himself. Totally.
He doesn't see another horse and has to be dependant on you. You then spend individual time hand grazing, etc. THen you will bond. ;-)

You will see a huge change IMO.

Too many times have I been there.
Best wishes with him!!!

Sounds very simple...but. He was here for a month for just board before we began any real training. We did work on ground manners. We didn't just "jump" into training 4 to 5 times a week. We built up gradually as we also extended the length of his sessions. He was going well under saddle in a hackamore, then, of course, when he was being shown to a prospect, came up lame.

Then he had the sudden personality change. He had been pushy before (but was well on his way to becoming very well behaved), but never aggressive.

This was all of a sudden. Gave him two weeks off (with bute for a few days). When restarting noticed the cross cantering, bunny hopping, inability to free jump (for a video). Became more aggressive. Attacked a cat in the pasture (never did that before, cat slept in his stall), charged me on several occasions, became very food aggressive (had been waiting for feed, if not patiently, at least without ears pinned).

Don't know what the owner will do. He's not in my care anymore and she does not appear to have the money or the will to investigate. I just feel sorry for the poor guy and I'm just curious.

Your ideas might work for a horse that came in with aggressive behavior...he did not. As I said, was just pushy; big and he knew it. He was fairly well behaved before the lameness issues began.

I firmly believe that the personality change came from pain or a disease process.

[LauraKY]

Just got the answer. It's EPM. Poor guy.

[Stacie]

Just got the answer. It's EPM. Poor guy.

Did they think it was the stress of being in a new place that brought it on?

[JB]

Stacie, stress can definitely bring it on. Horses can carry the issue for years, but not suffer until their immune system becomes compromised enough. Stress of any sort, whether from moving, or illness, or injury, even over-training, can bring it on.

Poor guy. I hope the owner is willing to do the right treatment.