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madamlb
Oct. 3, 2009, 05:34 PM
Hi there,

I registered honestly mainly to ask a question because COTH readers seem (in general) a knowledgeable and coherent bunch … rare in the horse world!
I have a question about upward fixation of the patella and basically whether to buy a young horse with this problem.
I’m not an impulse buyer, I like to weigh things up carefully but recently (about six weeks ago now) an opportunity arose that forced me to question my previous criteria for any equine purchase.

I was offered a filly- a rising three year old (obviously unbroken) warmblood filly with international grand prix lines from both sire and dam. The offer came from someone I trust- a grand prix rider and boutique breeder I know- and is spurred by the fact that the breeder is moving across the country and with eight horses decided to shift two of her youngsters. I was told straight out that this filly’s price was dramatically reduced due to an intermittently locking patella. The owner/breeder said that she believes the filly will easily grow out of it, and in fact already is, and that it’s mainly due to her rapid growth rate. At first I immediately scoffed at the idea, I didn’t want to buy a horse with an issue when there are so many others out there.

However, I began to think about it more and more. Based on bloodlines this horse is a once in a life time offer, her sire recently died and she is from one of his last foal crops, her full sister recently sold for close to six figures. She herself is a lovely young girl with a gorgeous trot and one of the most uphill canters I’ve ever seen. And here am I, being offered a horse with these lines for such a reduced price. I have done a huge amount of research on the patella issue since then- including reading the COTH archives-, buying and rereading many books, and speaking to basically anyone who will give me the time of day.

What I have discovered is that around 75% of people are positive about it- many of them are people with direct experience with it. My trainer seems to think that- pending vet check- buying the filly would be a great idea and something I am definitely up to, she has had two with upward fixation of the patella/locking stifles and one grew out of it, the other had the splitting surgery standing in her very barn and never had any trouble again. Then I have heard a few stories of horses ultimately having to be retired over it, and even one case of a horse being PTS.

So I put this to you objective people:
Would you ever buy a horse with locking stifles under any circumstances?
The reasons I give myself that it wouldn’t be a terrible idea are these- it is common in young horses especially large young and this filly, at nearly three and 16.1hh, still has a lot of growing to do. I have the time to do lots of hill work with her and get her very fit before I have her broken in, I was thinking once she’s used to going out on trails in hand of ponying her off one of my older, sane horses and getting her doing longer hill sessions that way. I would be very prepared to have the injections or surgery done, but my first avenue would be fitness, joint supplement and perhaps magnesium in her feed and the use of my chiropractic vet. If the worst came to the worst and the horse proved unsound long term I would probably breed one from her (the stifle locking in her in not due to conformation, she really does not seem to have weak stifles) and then maybe sell her on to a breeding program and with her bloodlines I don’t see how I could make a loss there.

I am not necessarily looking to do the high level dressage and jumping she was bred for but would like, down the track, a sound and sane mare who could easily do a trail ride one day and a low level dressage test the next. She has FEI show jumping lines and down the track I would love to see her doing some low/medium level eventing. On the patella issue with jumping, I have heard of many horses jumping competitively and successfully despite stifle locking (or rather post cured stifle locking) but another friend, a knowledgeable person though with no direct experience, told me that she might be too weak in the stifles/have damage that prevents her from jumping. Basically, I’m not looking for my international competition horse (lol) but a youngster I can train up (with plenty of assistance from professionals, obviously) into a nice horse. The seller is someone I do trust, she wants to shift the horse due to her move and the fact that as a GP dressage rider with two other youngsters in training she doesn’t have time to get a ‘special needs’ (my words not hers) horse up to her competition level. My trainers and most of my friends seem to think that pending her vet check and x-rays stacking up this would be a good opportunity for me as a young rider.

BUT I haven’t totally drunk the kool-aid. Some people say never to buy a horse with this issue- even though apparently she’s growing out of it already- and that it can mean long term unsoundness. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the situation. I’m still up in the air. At this point everything is pending vet check. I’d love it to work out and I know I’d love the challenge, but if the vet says that it’s going to be a big issue or if I hear enough terrible stories and warnings I don’t have any qualms backing out. Reading over it, this post is obviously coloured by the fact I would like this horse to work out. So please be as brutal as you like with it, if I sound insane tell me, or conversely if you think that it doesn’t sound ludicrous (again, pending vet check) let me know.

Thanks!
ETA: Just seen title and I promise I do actually know how to spell 'patella' stupid not editable typos!

vxf111
Oct. 3, 2009, 06:02 PM
I did buy one once. I would NEVER again. You couldn’t pay me to take a horse with stifle issues….

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4011270&highlight=stifle#post4011270

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3961662&highlight=stifle#post3961662

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2370138&highlight=stifle#post2370138

coloredhorse
Oct. 3, 2009, 07:18 PM
Different perspective from above: I bought one as a youngster, still have her, and as long as she is kept fit, her stifles operate normally. If she loses sufficient fitness, the patella will lock. In my mare's case, the fixation has always been short-lived and self-correcting and clearly addressed by keeping the supporting muscles strong. Each case will be different. But based on my personal, albeit limited, experience, I would not reject a horse -- especially a young one presumably not yet in work -- on this basis alone.

ksojerio
Oct. 3, 2009, 07:55 PM
My friend had an Arab/Welsh cross born on her farm that showed no symptoms of this until she was between 6-12 months old. She had the filly operated on and it seemed a simple enough procedure. The filly has been turned out and stayed sound since. However, she has just turned 2 and has not been under saddle, driven, or had any kind of hard exercise to determine her soundness under stress.

My personal opinion, stay away.

JB
Oct. 3, 2009, 07:56 PM
You need to know why it's currently sticking.

If it's because she has conformationally straight stifles, and it's not likely due to a current growth spurt, then think hard against it.

If it's an obvious butt-high growth spurt, chances are pretty good she will indeed grow out of it.

Not all UFP is a life-long issue.

Kiwayu
Oct. 3, 2009, 08:03 PM
I got a miniature horse at the age of 2 with the same problem, but it was REALLY bad!!! So bad that his patella almost never unlocked. :( I contacted so many people about surgeries, exercises, etc. What fixed my mini was keeping his one foot trimmed every 2 weeks. If he goes past 2-3 weeks without a trim it locks right back up and becomes a MAJOR issue. It's so bad that I'd have to question his quality of life. But not anymore, you'd never know unless I pointed it out. :D

shawneeAcres
Oct. 3, 2009, 08:04 PM
I have had and known many horses with this condition. I have seen some that grew out of it, and had two that we operated on. The two that were operated on were a student of mines young horse (that she bought from me) he went on to be a GREAT eventer thru training level and then passed onto as a "learner" horse for another young rider and was always sound into his teens. The other was my personal horse that I had operated on as a three year old he went on to be a dressage horse for me, and then was sold and became a hunter showing in "A" shows until he went blind in one eye. He then was retired and used as a school hrose well into his twenties. I have worked with several horses that went thru this to some degree as young horses and then with proper work and muscling they "outgrew" it. It is not something that would stop me from purchasing a horse.

BeastieSlave
Oct. 3, 2009, 08:54 PM
If it's because she has conformationally straight stifles, and it's not likely due to a current growth spurt, then think hard against it.

If it's an obvious butt-high growth spurt, chances are pretty good she will indeed grow out of it.


This has been my experience. My home-bred pony when through a phase where she just about scared me to death with the sticking! I don't know what I would have done if my vet hadn't told me to make her back up to unlock that first time.... Fortunately, she outgrew it and is just fine.

I knew a young large pony who had some UFP issues that were fairly mild, but seemed to be related to conformation. I'm not sure I would knowingly buy a beastie like that.

JB
Oct. 3, 2009, 09:03 PM
FYI, in studying this issue in the last 6 months, due to some other problems my WB gelding has had, I've discovered something interesting that I've never heard a vet (mine or any on this board) or anyone else for that matter, tell me.

Brief history first:
WB gelding first started locking at 3 1/2, quickly resolved with going from 12hr to 24hr turnout. Would lock during growth spurts until about 5. Beyond that if he was fully out of work, or fully in work, no locking issue. Instances (and there have been many) of going out of/coming into work he'd go a few days with some catching - rarely full locking.

He's 11 now.

After his most recent injury, I delved into the structures of the hind end - dove in deep. I was originally looking for information about the third trochanter (that was a fun thread here :D). Now, most information you've likely heard about UFP says it's due to weak quadriceps muscles, which is why putting the horse in work helps - strengthens the muscles so that they can properly lift that locking ligament off the patellar hook.

But, apparently, another cause if a tight vastus medialis muscle. That runs in that "pocket" of the flank area. So sure, exercise helps, because blood flow and strengthening body parts tends to help muscles loosen.

But, and why I've typed all this out, it is also, I have found, a VERY helpful area to mush around a bit when you have a horse who is locked. I personally think this HAS to be a better option than merely moving the horse/leg around so the ligament snaps off the hook. I just can't imagine that's very good for any of those structures.

Since I have discovered this, I have gotten my horse unlocked without a single snap crackle or pop, and I have to believe that is healthier all around.

I'll never back a horse up, or try to turn him, etc, if he's locked, again, without first working on the muscles in the flank.

lisae
Oct. 4, 2009, 10:16 AM
I was doing a search on this because I just bought a long yearling (modern-style Haflinger) filly and after having her home here a couple of weeks, have noticed she has the problem intermittently. I saw it first when I drove in and saw her standing very oddly, her right hind is the affected limb and she was resting her leg on the front of her fetlock. This morning, she had been overnighting on a fresh bed of chips and when she came out of the stall it was locked up. She gave it a few weird kicks and it popped loose.

:(

We will have to see if she grows out of it. She has lovely movement and conformation and she's at the bottom of the herd order, so perhaps it was a kick injury. Still, it looked like she's used to dealing with it....

Not the same as original poster's inquiry, as I paid very little for the filly and intend to train her for recreational driving in a couple of years, so no need for a high or intermediate performance horse.

That said, if she had shown the problem during my inspection I would have declined her purchase.

Bluey
Oct. 4, 2009, 11:30 AM
A friend gave us this colt, by their very famous stallion and thought we could make him our next stallion, after proving him.
The colt had somewhat upright hind leg, but didn't seem to have any problems until he was started under saddle.
He just could not take enough work to get fit under saddle without having a serious problem with locking stifles.
A friend really liked him, we gave him to her and she and her vet never could get him sound to ride for the over two years they tried.

I would say that, if you want to take the chances of the horse not working out and, because the reason may be inheritable also not having a value even as a broodmare, well, why not?
If you need a horse that you can use, bar unexpected problems, why start with a known problem, that may be or become serious?

Your call, how risk averse you may be and how much you may like the filly as an individual.

I wonder, why are not others jumping at this offer, if she is that good a deal?

madamlb
Oct. 12, 2009, 02:39 AM
Hi everyone,

Thanks for your advice, I found much of it very useful in conjunction with other advice in making my ultimate decision not to buy the horse in question.
It may work out to be the worst decision of my life, because horses with that sort of breeding and that sort of price CERTAINLY don't come along very often. But ultimately that was what pushed me to make my decision. Horses like the one in question *don't* come at that price and when it came down to it I wasn't willing to sacrifice soundness and even broody potential for the sake of a few thousand dollars. Especially after talking to a warmblood breeding friend who said whilst the seller is lovely her horses realistically go for huge money even as weanlings and the filly is probably a dud.

So I'll be on the look out for another baby- sans stifle issues, or any issues at all really- and probably kicking myself for turning down the foal I did, but hey, it might have just saved me thousands of dollars and heartache. At the end of the day there are too many horses out there to sacrifice when it comes to soundness.

So thanks for your help!

UT
Oct. 12, 2009, 03:12 PM
My mare is now 8 years old, doing 2, 3 and 4 tempis easily. She had one episode of the UF of the patella about 3 years ago. I did a lot of research and had her checked at Alamo Pintado vet hospital at that time.
We did a lot of hill walking, and lots and lots of lateral exercises to strengthen the quadricep muscles that control the patella. Since then she had never had another episode. She needs to be kept in work and kept fit. Besides being trained in dressage, she gets turned out (small paddock) and put in the euro-walker 4 to 5 times a week.

I will say buy the filly if it was just a limited episode, especially from a person that you know and trust