Mysterious hoof fungus? - what is it and how do I treat it?

[cmd62288]

I keep my horses on our family farm in rural illinois. The only large animal vets in the area are mostly cow vets, and they don't know too much about horses.

My older horse has had a gross fungus thing in the cracks of his heels for a while now. It occurs right at the hair line between the bulbs of his heels and they are crusty on the outside and swollen and gunky on the inside. When I put a hoof pick down there he reacts pretty strongly so I know it hurts but he is not overly unsound for a 23 year old with arthritis. Its not black so I know its not thrush. It's there in wet and dry weather. Could it be a bad case of rain rot? I've tried soaking it in betadine and iodine solutions, scraping of the crust and putting desatine on it but nothing seems to work. Any ideas?

[jn4jenny]

Regardless of whether it's thrush or not, the treatment protocol for thrush of the central sulcus will probably knock it out (assuming it's fungal). Go to your local drug store and buy athlete's foot cream and neosporin. Mix them together half and half, then use a syringe (no needle of course) to shoot it up that crack. Fill it as well as you can.

Then plug the hole with a cotton ball soaked in iodine. Use a hoof pick to shove it in there good. The cotton ball will fall out after a few hours, but that's actually a good thing--you kill off some ickies, then you let the thingie breathe.

Some people also like to use Tomorrow, which is a cream for cow mastitis. That works well too.

If all else fails, you could use Clean Trax or White Lightning.

[WaningMoon]

Canker?

[Rick Burten]

Canker?
I was thinking the same thing. :)

[matryoshka]

Let's hope it is just a center sulcus infection that is bad enough to go up the back of the heel. I've seen it nasty enough that the pastern was red and weepy. Mastitis ointment works well if applied once a day. The advantage to buying mastitis ointment is that it comes in a little tube with narrow, flexible nozzle that doesn't hurt as much when you put the medicine in there.

The two cases of canker I've seen have been visible in the center of the frog as white, soft, weepy tissue (looked a lot like crab meat to me, others described it as looking like cauliflower). On one horse it stank badly, and in the other horse, there was no strong odor. Canker hurts when you poke it and bleeds easily, but then, so does thrush in the center sulcus.

I'd treat it as a center sulcus infection and see if it responds. If it doesn't, then canker is worth looking into as a possibility. I sure hope it isn't canker!

Pictures would help. ;)

[caballus]

My bet would be a Yeast Infection (candida). That is not uncommon especially when the hooves are contracted and the heel bulbs crack. The exudate that you might pull out on the end of the hoofpick would be whitish in color and cottage cheesy looking ... and smelling. Yeast needs to be treated both topically AND systemically. If you've treated for thrush (bacteria) but not for yeast (fungus) then you've fed the yeast and it has proliferated. Yeast loves dead thrush bacteria -- it also thrives in a system that is overloaded with sugar. If you feed sweetened grain or high carbs you might want to switch to a low carb/no sugar. Also do some research on getting rid of Candida systemically -- combo of diet and herbs will help. Topically you can use a water soak of water mixed with Calendula Oil ... about 20 drops or so to a bucket high enough to cover the heel bulbs. Then, dry well and drop some straight oil right into the cracks. I would do this daily for about a week or until you see improvement. The Calendula is both an antifungal AND antibacterial (as well as antiseptic and antibiotic) plus it has properties that will cause rapid new tissue growth.

Adding Echinacea and Vitamin C to the diet will help strengthen the immune system. 1 oz. Echinacea daily for up to 3 weeks; 4000 mg. Vitamin C daily up to 3 weeks.

Canker is generally found on or about the frogs; not commonly in the heel bulbs.

[Mach Two]

Canker?

I was also thinking that. Get a vet to take a look, you may need to resection (I think that's term, one of the farriers here will correct me if I'm wrong) that foot. Canker is a tough cookie.

[matryoshka]

Dealing with canker is a bit more involved than a resection. It takes research on the vet's part to figure out what would work best for the horse.

I'm still hoping it is more mundane than canker. I forgot about yeast being white. Also, thrush could be a fungus, not necessarily bacterial. One of the reasons people suggest mixing athlete's foot creme with triple antibiotic ointment is to treat for fungus and bacteria at once. Vets have trouble getting an accurate sampling of what might be causing an infection because so many things grow in a sample, and it is hard to tell which is the overgrowth.

The best approach may be the one that takes care of several things.

However, canker does not respond to thrush treatments. It bleeds, it weeps, and it is very painful when prodded with a hoof pick. Horses who have canker tend to protect their feet (won't allow them to be handled after a while). If canker is suspected, don't muck around. Get a vet who is willing to research before treating.

[Rick Burten]

Also, thrush could be a fungus, not necessarily bacterial.
It can(be a fungus that is)? Every veterinary text I have read, Including Adam's, identifies Fusobacterium necrophorum as the odds on favorite culprit.

To be fair, I did once read an article that stated "Equine thrush is caused by anaerobic bacteria that, when trapped in moisture, can create a fungal infection that slowly eats away at the horse's hoof tissue, particularly the frog area. "

I'm not quite sure of the process by which an anaerobic bacteria creates a fungal infection, but then again, what do I know?

[matryoshka]

Cab is the one who said that if it has been treated for thrush then it has been treated with an anti-bacterial. I was under the impression that thrush is a fungus, but whether it is thrush the horse has in his center sulcus? I don't know. I also think that "thrush" is one of those umbrella terms that gets used to anything gooey and foul-smelling in a hoof. A bacterial issue may be called thrush, or a fungal issue may be called thrush. That's what I meant, and you caught me using too broad a definition of thrush. Never hurts to be specific, and thanks for the correction.

It surprises me that mastitis ointment works so well for center sulcus infections when it is an anti-bacterial salve. If thrush is a fungus and thrush is what is causing the infection, it shouldn't work. But it has worked well on every horse I've tried it on.

[Rick Burten]

I also think that "thrush" is one of those umbrella terms that gets used to anything gooey and foul-smelling in a hoof.
Since the indicators/characteristics of equine hoof thrush are well established, there should be no confusion about whether or not thrush is present.
A bacterial issue may be called thrush, or a fungal issue may be called thrush.
Not by those who understand the differences.
That's what I meant, and you caught me using too broad a definition of thrush. Never hurts to be specific, and thanks for the correction.
De nada.
It surprises me that mastitis ointment works so well for center sulcus infections when it is an anti-bacterial salve.
Why? What effect would you expect an anti-bacterial medication to have on bacteria? ;)
If thrush is a fungus and thrush is what is causing the infection, it shouldn't work. But it has worked well on every horse I've tried it on.
And that's because equine thrush is caused by bacteria while human thrush(which is where/why, I suspect, the confusion arises, especially among women)is caused by yeasts which are indeed, part of the kingdom, Fungi. :) Its also why, when/if there is a fungal infection of the equine hoof, it will only respond to anti-fungal medications/treatments.

[caballus]

Thrush is often confused with a fungus but it is a bacteria. Dry cow mastitis treatment works because its an antibiotic -penicillin G procaine that is effective against bacteria. The proper name for Thrush is FUSOBACTERIUM NECROPHORUM and is the primary isolated cause for thrush although some do relate it to a fungus. The fungus that causes yeast in the equine hoof is CANDIDA ALBICANS. Two different critters. Requires two different treatments - both antibacterial/antibiotic (thrush bacteria) and antifungal (yeast). That's why I treat for both when I treat thrush. Interesting find, however -- horses that are not immune compromised in any way and have good healthy hooves don't generally get thrush -- even in muddy conditions. But a horse that has a weakened immune system (for whatever reason) and hooves that are not in optimal 'form and function' is more likely to succumb to thrush. Even in immaculate conditions!

Thrush produces and thick, black, smelly, tar-like substance in the crevices of the hoof.
Yeast produces a white, cheesy-looking exudate that smells 'cheesy', generally in the crevice that has developed between the heel bulbs and, too often, goes undetected until lameness is pronounced.

[Equibrit]

I had the same problem with a boarders horse a couple of years ago. Good old Nolvasan solution solved the problem.(like mud fever/cracked heels/scratches, but in between close set heel bulbs))

[matryoshka]

There ya go. I keep thinking thrush is a fungus.

[Hip]

I used to use every sort of thing for my rescued horses and now I use plain old Lime, the stuff you line football fields with. My shoer told me about it and he uses it. Dries whatever right up. Plus, on the new rescues, I give a course of Procaine P too, that helps. :winkgrin: I agree with the poster who said that it seems that if a horse is healthy on the insides, it's hard to get a case of thrush going...and vice versa.

Also, the Lime works an absolute charm on proud flesh too. :yes:

[Rick Burten]

There ya go. I keep thinking thrush is a fungus.
"Quoth the Raven, 'Never More' ". ;)

[MintHillFarm]

Not to hijack this thread, but all of you sound like you know what you are talking about and I could use some ideas!

I have a horse whose left hind coronary band is swollen and protruding. He is not lame and not that reactive to handling his foot in general. His ankle gets swollen and then goes down. The leg in general has good days when the swelling is less and some when the swelling is more. There has been hair loss around the pastern and back of the ankle. In addition, the surface of the hoof has a rough texture and small cracks from top to bottom, in all directions. My vet is stumped. We had him on SMZ, Dex and it has not improved. Any ideas???

[rcloisonne]

Thrush is often confused with a fungus but it is a bacteria.
The confusion arises because the term "thrush" is used to describe an oral infection in humans caused by candida albicans (which has little to no odor, IME). One of the hazards of using layman's terms.

Dry cow mastitis treatment works because its an antibiotic -penicillin G procaine that is effective against bacteria.
Actually, the drugs used in the two biggest selling mastitis treatments (ToDay & ToMorrow) are cephalosporins, not penicillin.

[matryoshka]

Sorry MintHillFarm, I'm not an expert. Hopefully somebody else has an idea.

Some of the mastitis ointment I've purchased is penicillen, and some is cephalosporins. Both types seem to work well for center sulcus infections.

[caballus]

The confusion arises because the term "thrush" is used to describe an oral infection in humans caused by candida albicans (which has little to no odor, IME). One of the hazards of using layman's terms.


Actually, the drugs used in the two biggest selling mastitis treatments (ToDay & ToMorrow) are cephalosporins, not penicillin. You are correct and I stand corrected. I was thinking of a different dry cow mastitis treatment that *is* Penicillin. However, cephalosporins are structurally and pharmocologically related to Penicillin. They are bactericidal and thus kill bacteria, not fungus.

And yeah, Candida in humans is also known as Thrush (thus I was totally taken back when our son, as an infant, was dx'd with "Thrush" as I only knew it as a hoof malady! -- not an oral fungus in infants!) So it can be confusing.

[MintHillFarm]

[QUOTE=matryoshka;4418521]Sorry MintHillFarm, I'm not an expert. Hopefully somebody else has an idea.

Some of the mastitis ointment I've purchased is penicillen, and some is cephalosporins. Both types seem to work well for center sulcus infections.[/QUOTE

Thanks anyway! Where do you get the mastitis ointment? A Vet or can it be bought elsewhere?

[matryoshka]

I buy it by the box at Tractor Supply. Or you can buy individual tubes wherever they sell cattle feed. Or you can get it from your vet.

[cmd62288]

thank you for the suggestions! He has had problems with contracted heels ever since I first got him and the stuff in the cracks is most definitely white and cauliflower-ish. So I will treat for yeast and see how it goes.

I've never heard of canker before, but it sounds serious. Could somebody explain what exactly it is?

[caballus]

Marjorie Smith is from whom I first learned about yeast infections. She was my hoofcare mentor for several years. You can read about treatments on her page: http://www.barefoothorse.com and click on MORE TOPICS.

I might also suggest you get in touch with Lisa St. John at www.lavendersageequine.com She can advise you on a diet that would help with fungal infections.

[Rick Burten]

I've never heard of canker before, but it sounds serious. Could somebody explain what exactly it is?
One of the best treatise/essays written on the subject: http://www.equipodiatry.com/canker1.htm

[Equibrit]

thank you for the suggestions! He has had problems with contracted heels ever since I first got him and the stuff in the cracks is most definitely white and cauliflower-ish. So I will treat for yeast and see how it goes.

I've never heard of canker before, but it sounds serious. Could somebody explain what exactly it is?

Just spray diluted Nolvasan solution on it and it'll be gone in no time. REALLY !

[mzm farm]

All of you who are so certain that this fungal infection is so diet based, enlighten me as to why 10/10 horses trimmed by a farrier got it, while the other 6 did not! Horses are of mixed ages, co-mingled affected by this hoof plague and not affected, no change in diet, no new horses, have been on the same property for years, have never had to clean their feet daily before.

Lifestyle: free choice hay/grass, out 24/7, NO GRAIN, TM salt free choice and not over or under consumed. Younger ones get mineral balancer.

3 weeks after being trimmed my sound, healthy horses started coming up lame. Grade 1-3/5; poor attitudes towards work, unhappy creatures, reduced play, you get the idea. Frogs looked awful - deep crack in center and shredded looking.

OP: sadly the cow mastitis stuff did nothing for my horses, metronidazole - nothing, daily hoof picking in dry weather - not effective; Hooftrax is an interesting product, but they do not claim your horse is not going to get it right back from the environment which is impossible to de-contaminate from the spores, completely unrealistic for my situation, maybe will work for you.
Iodine - sprayed it on clean dry hoofs, did not work.
White lightning - I am using a similar product at the moment, so far, most effective and reasonable to use, horses staying sound, but they are being soaked and or rinsed daily/to every other day.

Has no one else had an "epidemic" of this come up? Has anyone cleared it successfully?

My back and pocket book are aching for some real effective remedy!

[matryoshka]

I don't like the "cauliflower" description. Definitely read the article Rick linked to. Also, if you suspect it is canker, there is a yahoo group set up for owners whose horses have canker. There are tons of pictures there in addition to what treatments people have tried, what worked, what didn't.

I've never seen yeast in a hoof. Doesn't mean it isn't there, but if I haven't seen it, I won't be able to describe it or identify it for anybody. I have seen canker. Canker is a mass, not a film or covering that can be scraped away, and it grows from the inside out, meaning that it is deep rather than shallow. If you prod the stuff with a hoof pick and it is attached without scraping off, I'd get a vet out ASAP.

[caballus]

I don't like the "cauliflower" description. Definitely read the article Rick linked to. Also, if you suspect it is canker, there is a yahoo group set up for owners whose horses have canker. There are tons of pictures there in addition to what treatments people have tried, what worked, what didn't.

I've never seen yeast in a hoof. Doesn't mean it isn't there, but if I haven't seen it, I won't be able to describe it or identify it for anybody. I have seen canker. Canker is a mass, not a film or covering that can be scraped away, and it grows from the inside out, meaning that it is deep rather than shallow. If you prod the stuff with a hoof pick and it is attached without scraping off, I'd get a vet out ASAP. The yeast is a cottage cheese like exudate. It is not a 'growth'. Canker is a cauliflower looking 'growth' that is attached to the hoof. It cannot be 'picked out'.

I agree -- if the stuff is like 'cauliflower' and connected to the hoof call the vet for appropriate treatment.

One of the problems of suggesting anything over the internet is the lack of eye-to-hoof assessment. One may say 'cauliflower' while someone else says 'cottage cheese'. *grin*

[matryoshka]

mzm farm, I have no explanation for what is going on with your horses. I've not seen new cases of thrush cause lameness; only deep, long standing cases where the frog is rotted and/or tender. So I'm not sure what your horses have.

If it is thrush, you might try treating with White Lightening once a week for a few weeks. I use much less than the product calls for: I put a cotton ball in the bottom of the soaking boot or bag, and add one tsp of WL and one tsp of vinegar. Seal up the boot or bag (if you use a bag, you are going to have to duct tape the bottom or put a boot over it to keep it from perforating). Keep in mind that WL works through the gas that forms when WL is combined with vinegar. Keep it sealed on the hoof for 20 minutes, then remove the boot/bag.

For the horses with canker, a vet from U Penn recommended we treat with WL daily, for 20 minutes. Since canker is supposed to stay dry, that is how we came up with using less product, and it seems to work very well in lesser amounts.

[matryoshka]

One of the problems of suggesting anything over the internet is the lack of eye-to-hoof assessment. One may say 'cauliflower' while someone else says 'cottage cheese'. *grin*Agreed. When I said I didn't like it, that's because it sounded like the horse could have canker. I'm really hoping it isn't canker. Also, canker is yellowish, not white. Definitely a cauliflower color rather than cottage cheese. And it bleeds easily.

BTW, because of some serious antibiotics I was on during pregnancy, my youngest daughter had a nasty case of thrush from birth. It turns out that I had systemic yeast and kept reinfecting her through nursing. That was a mess. Thank goodness for Difluken (I think that's the name), which cleared it up nicely. In humans, thrush is a yeast. Sugar feeds yeast.

If a yeast overgrowth in horse feet looks anything like thrush in a human mouth, then it is whiter and like a film. Some can be scraped off, but some stays attached. Still, it is shallow or thin, not thick and and attached. I wonder if Monistat, Nystatin, or any other treatment for yeast infections in humans would work on the feet. Have you tried it?

[stryder]

I'm using "Magic Stuff" from http://www.equitelligent.com on my mare's hooves, and other body parts. The sides of her frog were starting to get a little gunky. One treatment of this and it cleared right up.

Magic Stuff has tea tree, lavender and other essential oils, and is antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal. And it smells nice.

You can e-mail Vanessa through the web-site (even though it says it's closed) and she'll ship it to you.

Here's what the label says, "Magic Stuff ... is a holistic blend of essential oils which prevent and heal many hoof and skin problems & wounds like cuts, thrush, mud fever & rain rot."

[mzm farm]

Unfortunately, my horses USED to have gorgeous full frogs. Now they have a deep hole in the central sulcus, they are partially shedding their frogs and some of the tips of the arrow part of the frog are seemingly lifting up. I think it is the same problem as the OP is inquiring about - mine reacted as though they were poked with a needle when I hoofpicked and tried to explore the area with the tip. They even flinched when I probed around there with my fingers. Usually my horses are barefoot and sound.

I am assuming it is a fungal type problem, as a course of antibacterial treatment did absolutely nothing. The problem arose in about 3 -3 1/2 weeks - that is the time from when horses were trimmed to when lameness started to appear. When I checked the horses who were trimmed, their frogs were damaged looking, those who were not trimmed, had lovely frogs and terribly overgrown hoof walls.

Weekly diluted white lightning treatments are not effective in my case - I tried soaking a cotton and stuffing it in the crevices - not effective, although the cotton did stay in.

I also tried tea tree oil - no effect in controlling the original outbreak, don't know about maintenance.

Further discussion welcome. I am very sad for my hurting critters and am willing to try just about anything that is at least somewhat logical and safe.

[tpup]

My horse had infections in his central sulcus' on his front hooves for months. I tried Dry Cow/mastitis treatment - did nothing. I mean zilch.

What worked for us was plain old Desitin....worked into the crack with a small syringe, coffee stirrer - anything thin enough to get the Desitin in there. I did it almost daily for a few weeks and they healed.

You could also soak in Clean Trax and start "fresh treatment".

What does the vet say??

[mzm farm]

TPUP, what time of year did your horse have the infection? Was he turned out while you were treating him? In wet, muddy conditions or? How long has he been cured? Any re-ocurrences of this issue?

What is "fresh treatment"?
Thanks for sharing.

[cmd62288]

Rick Burten, thank you for that link!

My guy's feet look nothing like the pictures in the essay. It's not a mass or growth (I guess "cauliflower" brought a different picture to my mind. like caballus says, sometimes its hard to visualize other people's metaphors ;) ) Its more like a gooey whitish film that gets crusty when it comes into contact with the air. Perhaps it could be canker in an early stage but I think its probably safe to assume that its not for now. Here's hoping, because canker seems like a nightmare. It looks like I have a lot of options to try if it actually is a yeast infection. Thanks everyone!

[matryoshka]

I doubt it is canker. From what I've seen (again, two horses, canker in a total of 6 feet, some advanced, some just starting) is that canker starts out as a small spot that gets bigger with time and is not at all filmy, does not scrape off.

Phew!!

Please keep us posted as to what works on the yeast.

[matryoshka]

mzm farm,

I've only seen a few cases of frogs being totally rotted out, and it is usually where the horses are in a very wet environment, where the hoof form is poor (as in, contracted heels, retained sole, and/or way too long between trims), and where they aren't being cleaned between trims and the horse doesn't move around enough to fling dirt/manure out of his hooves. I saw it in a horse with navicular disease as well, but he also had poor hoof form.

The approach to treating these feet has several aspects, the first of which is to trim the feet for better form. Address contracted heels, or a retained soles, etc through good trimming. At the same time, treat any infection present. Providing a healthier environment for the hooves helps keep them healthy once the infection has been treated.

Mastitis ointment has worked well so far for me as long as other things are also being taken care of. If it is a fungal infection, though, an antibiotic salve isn't going to help. That's why Ramey and others like to mix medicated Athlete's foot creme (an antifungal) with triple antibiotic ointment for center sulcus problems. My difficulty with this is delivering the meds where they need to go without causing the horse pain, plus wasting stuff while transferring it into a tube for application. If I encountered a center sulcus infection that did not respond to daily application of mastitis ointment, I'd do the mix.

Also, if the frogs have gotten smaller and rotted, but there is no deep crevice in the center, then you treat it differently. So far, White Lightening has worked well on tough cases of rotted frog. It isn't diluted, it is mixed half and half with vinegar. If you mix it with anything else, you aren't activating it, and it won't work the same.

I've never used Clean Trax, but I've heard good things about it.

Here's an article on antifungal treatments:
http://www2.horseshoes.com/articlespublications/hoof-pathology/324-hoof-wall-disease-update

[caballus]

OK ... it's well past beginning of October and I'm curious as to how the OPs horse is doing? update, please?