Anyone seen a perfect flexion test then scary x-rays? Update-good and bad news [Archive]

Equine Studies

Oct. 2, 2009, 11:01 PM

I have never seen this before. Just vetted yet another horse. Have ridden her several times, including at a show. Seller is a friend of my brother's girlfriend (ie. is trustworthy) and has had the mare 3 years-never had a lame step (and everyone in our area knows this mare-she is shown every weekend during show season). Was 4th at our provincial eventing championships at two levels higher than what I do. She is older (15) so I had her vetted really as a formality to get a baseline set of x-rays once she started to need maintenance.

Now, I don't believe in flexion tests 100%, but if a horse is sound on hard flexions, usually that is a good thing, right? In this case there was no hint that this mare's hocks are scary. Scary as in they are fusing (not necessarily bad of course, but shouldn't she be lame during the process???). Bone spurs (huge ones), hooks and bridging everywhere. The vet can't figure out how this horse is sound with all the degenerative changes the x-rays show. He had permission to talk to the regular vet, and there have been no issues with this mare. She is only on Jeffers Glucosamine 5000. No special shoeing, she's had her back shoes pulled and there was no difference in the back end at all when I rode her after.

I just can't believe it. I don't look forward to telling the owner about this tomorrow. We thought the vetting would just be a formality to get a set of x-rays for comparison later. This mare must be one tough mare.

Has anyone seen this happen before where the horse doesn't give any indication on flexions that there is anything going on at all then x-rays show otherwise?

mroades

Oct. 2, 2009, 11:03 PM

yep, and ten years later the 17.2 tb with the worst hock xrays I have ever seen is still jumping around and swapping leads

Peggy

Oct. 2, 2009, 11:29 PM

Jive flexed fine on the foot where the extensor process had been broken off the coffin bone at some point. Now, you knew something was there b/c the foot was pointed instead of round, but the flexions were fine. So, I bought him with a bit knocked off the price. Was still jumping around (training level eventing) 6-7 years later. When he did have finally have lameness issues, around age 18, it was that foot. But, when I think about what we could have done to keep him comfortable today...

I've know others. Horses can't read their x-rays.:lol:

Fharoah

Oct. 3, 2009, 12:52 AM

My lame horse was negative to distal flexions when he was first diagnosed his high articular ringbone he had not come sound after IRAP or steriod HA so he has recently had his pastern arthrodesed.

Equa

Oct. 3, 2009, 01:16 AM

Yep. Trying to sell one at present. 15 year old 1* eventer. Flexes perfectly in front - but xrays are not pretty (goodbye two sales!). Has a mild pos flex in one hock, but x-rays are perfect! Go figure!

RioTex

Oct. 3, 2009, 07:16 AM

I had one that flexed competely sound and X-rays of the left knee were described by my vet as looking like WWIII. Full of chips. Never took a bad step on it while I owned him. I had a really sound extensor process horse as well, but his films were much less spectacular.

skyy

Oct. 3, 2009, 07:22 AM

Yep. I was considering buying an OTTB for a resale project. The horse flexed fine and, as it was a cheap horse, vet thought I was a little crazy for wanting a full set of films (he's a friend and is allowed to tell me that I'm crazy:) ). Lo and behold, the right front ankle had 4 screws in it! Had this been a horse for me, I probably would have bought him and taken a chance that he'd stay sound. As he was a resale project, I figured that anyone considering buying him from me would do films and run far away after seeing that ankle.

Equine Studies

Oct. 3, 2009, 07:54 AM

She's not really all that cheap I guess ($4000). A steal for what she's done if she was expected to stay sound for a while. There is no way I can find a horse with that much experience and is safe for me to just get on and ride-after a few crashes and injuries that is high priority-and I have to compromise on other things like soundness. I know she'll have to break down at some point-she has to based on what she's done, her age, and her hocks. So many people are telling me to just take a chance on her and ride her and enjoy her for the time she's going to be rideable. Unfortunately I don't have good luck in the soundness department and feel like throwing up at yet another potential giveaway, like maybe even as early as next week, that's how bad it's been.

Maybe I'll just take a chance on this one if I can negotiate the price a little more (the girl bought her for $3500 3 years ago and put some work into her)-we had settled on $4000 from $4500 pending vetting. The owner is selling this horse to buy one that will do the higher levels-this mare is a complete packer at this level but at the next level has a stop every now and again-could be physical-who knows . This mare sounds like she's tough and might just not feel like she's sore, even if she's supposed to be. I just know I'm gambling big time on how long this horse will hold up to work (although my idea of work is far less than what she's used to-my own hip and pelvis can't do much anyway). At least I know there are horses out there that defy the x-rays. I know a few as well, actually-like the ex-reining mare whose hocks were ugly, that team penned for years without a lame step. Guess if you like what you're doing it doesn't hurt as much.

luise

Oct. 3, 2009, 08:21 AM

If you know the horse so well, then it might be worth taking a chance on her. Besides walking away, you have a couple of options I think.
-ask to lease the horse for several months
-negotiate on price to pay for hock injections this year
-buy horse and start on adequan, consider hock injections of necessary
If you do buy the horse, I would definitely run a drug screen! You never know if the horse has been on bute or any herbal things to mask pain. Trust no one!
You don't say what level she's been competing at, but $4000 for a 15 y/o novice+ horse is not a bad price at all, especially if she's really a packer at her level.
Good luck, and let us know what you decide to do!

Oct. 3, 2009, 09:14 AM

That is why you have to look at the whole picture. I know a girl would bought a horse who was too rank at his PPE to do complete flexions, and whose hocks looked like swiss cheese on xrays, but who went on to successfully compete at a not-so-teeny level of Eventing for many years.

If the horse you want has been doing the job you want, for long enough, and you've know the horse to be sound, then to me it's not that big of a deal. You're not going to find clean xrays on a 15yo who's been in that sort of work (ok, maybe on a rare instance).

Pony Fixer

Oct. 3, 2009, 09:20 AM

I owned a horse that was a phenomenal athlete--could trot a 5' fence, could hunt 4 times/week, etc. Never took a lame step. He got a cut over one hock so I did some rads to make sure it wasn't more serious.

Ugh. Worst.rads.ever. Just like you described--spurs, bridging, fusing, floaters--you name it. I had not vetted him before as he was given to me, so I had no idea.

You could not make this guy lame with a 2x4.

Too bad you can't Xray the brain, though, 'cause he was CRACKERS!

Gry2Yng

Oct. 3, 2009, 09:39 AM

Too bad you can't Xray the brain, though, 'cause he was CRACKERS!

Coffee on screen. Thanks for that.

If the horse has been doing the job you want to do and has stayed sound, find a way to make it work where you don't take on a financial risk you can't "stomach" and you get a horse that is a nice fit. Horse may be sound for another 10 years. Horse can have a traumatic injury in pasture tomorrow. It is all a roll of the dice, but not many good horsemen would fault you for buying this horse.

Equine Studies

Oct. 3, 2009, 10:19 AM

I've had the pasture accidents, lame the day after you bring them home, I've had every nightmare possible actually (including the bute it sound and get rid of it-that was the last purchase-took a chance on that one though without vetting it and got a very cheap, but lame horse that now has a nice trail riding home-I don't really regret buying her except the part where someone got a good laugh and a few thousand dollars because I was naive and trusted someone I shouldn't have). And this only 6 months ago-so more than a little gun shy now. I don't think this mare has been drugged-I know the owner (although I suppose she could be like that, but I don't think so).

I'm sick of getting burned, but also sick of trying out and vetting horses (this one would be half paid for by now, and really, I just want to ride-flat, jumping, I really don't care at this point after 4 years of crap). They will all have some issue, I just hope if I decide to buy this one it will be minor maintenance down the road, not major issues tomorrow. I'll post an update, good or bad, when I talk to the vet again and the owner.

Equine Studies

Oct. 3, 2009, 11:42 AM

Just talked to the vet again-here's the official info:

right hock-the worst-all the fusion and bridging is in the lower joint, which he says is bad. The biggest problem with it is that there is bone being laid down at the front of the hock, like melting wax dripping down a candle. The bottom of the "dripping wax" has large cracks in it and his worry is that if it breaks off she'll be done. He thinks it started with a trauma of some sort a long time ago-not regular wear and tear.

left hock-same thing (spurs etc.) but nothing happening in the front.

Vet seems to think she's a ticking time bomb. Oh we'll just have to see what the owner says when she calls.

Oct. 3, 2009, 11:47 AM

you'd LIKE the lower joint to fuse. The movement in that joint is so minimal, and when it fuses the pain stops. Not that it sounds like he's had any pain.

mhtokay

Oct. 3, 2009, 12:18 PM

a vet was just here a couple months ago to do a pre purchase. she said the flex tests and x-rays are tools. she absolutely has seen where they don't match. Ugly x-rays and no reaction to flex tests.... and visa versa.

I sold a gelding a few years ago with "bad hocks". I did a couple rads before advertising him to compare to the ones of a few years before. So the prospective buyer knew his history. Did a pre purchase with no additional x-rays and he flexed sound. I was surprised. Kid's been riding and showing him for about 5 years now with a little maintenance. She loves him.

Janet

Oct. 3, 2009, 12:31 PM

There are LOTS of sound horses with bad Xrays.

QHEventr

Oct. 3, 2009, 12:52 PM

My retired advanced event horse NEVER flexed sound (lower limb), but was never unsound! He was never injected, etc.....However, after a pasture accident warrented stifle xrays, we found HUGE cysts and spurs in BOTH stifles, The vets at UGA were baffled as to how he had stayed sound running advanced. The conclusion was that he had had them since he was racing (age 2-6) and he retired at 12 due to a torn ligament. My current vet tells me every time, "you ride the horse, not the radiographs!"

my newest guy, Thomas, retired SOUND from racing at age 14 (yes, 14), and has rather large ankles (ok....ok.....HUGE ankles!). He flexes 100% sound all around, and I'm not sure i want to see what it in his Rads.....probably not pretty! He's happily eventing at baby novice!

If its a horse for you, as in not for resale, then you can overlook quite a bit on the xrays as long as the horse is sound.

Equine Studies

Oct. 3, 2009, 01:06 PM

Just talked to the owner-she is very, very surprised, but is OK with me taking some time to think on it. We discussed having the other vet from the clinic (the lameness expert-he was off this week post-surgery so didn't do the vetting) look at the x-rays-he'll be a bit more realistic about what this mare will hold up to do. He also knows her better. She really is exactly what I'm looking for riding wise, just may not be sound for very long. I hate horse shopping!

Fharoah

Oct. 3, 2009, 02:21 PM

I have been through 2 years of battleing lameness only to end up with ringbone which didn't respond to management and end up doing surgery. I am preying my boy will be sound in appox. a year. I am unlikely to take any chances.

I sold a horse six years ago, they put him through a rigorous, even rode him lounged him on a tight circle multiple radiographs flexions. Good vet could find absolutely nothing wrong with him, he was also showing and winning at the time. Six months later he developed lameness in his hocks and pastern. It took them a year to get him sound but he has remained sound for five years, with yearly hock injections and a single pastern injection over the past. He remains happy and sound jumping and having fun.

Hock arthritis can be very manageable with legend, adequan, equioxx, steroid HA joint injections, IRAP, shockwave, tildren. If those stop produceing soundness surgical and chemical fusion can be very secessful.

Personal Champ

Oct. 3, 2009, 03:25 PM

Ditto to those who said you want hocks to fuse - my 17 yo. went for injections in July and we were thrilled to find his lowest ones closed on both sides, and the middles almost fused. The main joint is still great.

Can't speak for the wax thing though. I would consult with lameness vet, then decide.

Dalemma

Oct. 3, 2009, 03:55 PM

Equine Studies

Oct. 3, 2009, 08:06 PM

Have you thought of sending the xrays to a specialist to get a second opinion as to whether that bad lower joint will eventually fuse........or maybe it is partly fused already hence no lameness?

If I was going to take a chance on a horse that had that type of prognosis even with all that training and experience it would have to be pretty darn cheap....like a $1,000.00

Dalemma

Working on a second opinion. $4000 seems like a lot to spend now on her regardless. I'm not interested in spending a great deal of money on maintenance, I'd just spend more money now for a better horse.

tpup

Oct. 3, 2009, 08:16 PM

My horse's hock arthritis is managed well. My lameness vet called his hocks "about as bad as they can get". With injections every 6 mos, Plat. Performance CJ and Previcox for overall arthritis, he is ridden several times a week - flatwork, lesson and hacks and he gallops around with his buddy. He is 20 and very sound and happy.

Ask the vet this question: If your DAUGHTER wanted to buy this horse for the work intended, would you let her buy it, or move on? Puts them in a corner and you usually get a very frank answer from a more personal perspective. I asked this question when I bought my horse 3 yrs ago - he had a minor navicular change in his left hoof. The vet gave an affirmative answer based on my plans for him and the fact that he had an unwavering, quiet temperment which is what I wanted. We've never had a problem with the navicular...knock on wood.

Good luck :)

Equine Studies

Oct. 3, 2009, 08:32 PM

The vet wants me to walk away-he has a horse he leased for his daughter that was supposed to do the 3'6" hunters-and has the same hock issues. He can't keep the leased horse sound. He has no idea if this mare will stay sound or if she does, for how long. He knows how much I want her but he says no way. I have almost resigned myself to move on but there's still part of me that wants to try it. However, my 2 year old's hock is now hot and puffy after she ran around in the arena for 5 minutes-I think her OCD chip is acting up. Maybe I don't need 2 potentially lame horses.

Oct. 3, 2009, 08:34 PM

Don't take this as me trying to convince you to buy the horse :) :)

No vet has any idea how sound any 15yo horse will be tomorrow or next week or next year.

Given that you're having such a battle going on in your head, this isn't the right horse for you.

Take a breather, stop looking for a few weeks, then start again :)

Equine Studies

Oct. 6, 2009, 08:57 PM

So we got the second opinion from the "lameness expert" at the clinic, bad news is he sees the same thing on the x-rays and says who knows how long she'll be sound. The good news the owner (who is really fantastic) took his advice and dropped the price immediately to $2000. Well, that's sort of good news, now I'm more willing to take a chance on the mare, but am calculating the cost per ride depending on how long she's going to stay sound before she becomes either unrideable or just very costly (stupid math teacher moments).

Interesting that one paycheque will buy her and pay for the vetting-hmmmmmmmmm, what to do, what to do. I'm going to ride her again tomorrow and tag along to another little show on Saturday then decide for sure one way or another. There is a little eventing show next weekend as well, so I will have snuck in 3 teeny shows before winter. Sounds not so bad I guess.

Fharoah

Oct. 6, 2009, 09:05 PM

I would factor in cost of maintenance. Your horse may do great. Best wishes in making the best possible choice.

Signature

Oct. 6, 2009, 09:09 PM

We had an investment mare that had perfect flexions and moderately severe changes on xrays at age 5. She went a couple years and then needed injections every 6 months, but it was worth it based on her quality... once they fuse you should be good to go, like others have said, but it can take a while too.

Then we had a mare who at 12 had never taken a lame step. Buyer went to vet her and found OCD, chips, spurs and arthritis, something in literally every joint. She flexed pretty well considering. Was purchased anyway. She is now 18 and still in heavy work as a dressage horse - no lameness. So, we've seen sound horses with horrible xrays and lame horses with clean xrays. Could it be any more hard to predict?? :)

Another thing, luckily this is a mare, so will always have an inherent value as a nice horse to reproduce. I'd be WAY less likely to take the chance on a gelding, who could very quickly be a valueless pasture ornament. People will always buy quality broodmares even pasture sound.

mvp

Oct. 6, 2009, 09:40 PM

One thing you might want to ask yourself is: How soon am I ready to support a retired horse? Or do you have a solid plan for selling one who no longer suits your purpose? At 15, even the soundest horse ought to force the circumspect buyer to ask. I am all for buying an older packer meant to do a certain job for a limited amount of time. But I don't see how people without land choose this option.

mzm farm

Oct. 6, 2009, 10:10 PM

I mean really gorgeous clean x rays? They do not go over fences nor even down the trail path nicely for you.

You have ridden this horse how many times now? You know, even horses with perfect vetting and x rays break legs, pull ligaments, colic, etc. There is no insurance on a living creature from nature.

Your vet has no business telling you yes or no. Their business is to provide and explain information, YOUR business is to decide whether the gamble is worth it to you.

I have a horse that was pronounced lame by a whole slew of vets, and guess what - she is perfectly sound, for years, showing and winning and being happy.

They are living creatures, you just never know.

Equine Studies

Oct. 6, 2009, 10:11 PM

Signature-Exactly what I was thinking. I can't predict, nor can anyone else, I just don't have a great track record when it comes to soundness problems so second guess every little thing-I can imagine everyone is pretty sick of it!

mvp-Ah yes, thought that one through a bit-I pay hardly any board
($200/month) so that's not an issue. A friend who knows the mare well is interested in her on a free indefinite breeding lease if and when she is too sore to ride (assuming she'll still catch then of course). I should also own a farm within a year (inherited-well 1/4 inherited, 3/4 purchased from the other 3 siblings). My father is very ill with cancer and alcoholism related liver failure and has a 65 acre farm that needs quite a lot of work but will be fantastic when I'm done with it. That looks so harsh when I read it on the screen but it's reality in my world right now, and one of the reasons I'm thinking about taking a chance on this mare.

Another is my niece could learn to ride on her, and she is a really safe, comfortable ride (even if it's only trail riding in the next year or so) for me and my chronically sore hip and pelvis. Someday it'll be too much pain and not enough gain, so I need to get on, ride and show a little, before it's too late.

jen-s

Oct. 6, 2009, 10:19 PM

Reading your last post, ES, I think you've made up your mind! Enjoy your new partner. ;)

Gry2Yng

Oct. 6, 2009, 11:26 PM

tBHj

Oct. 6, 2009, 11:29 PM

For $4000, I'd take the risk.

luise

Oct. 7, 2009, 07:29 AM

well, if I had a 65 acre farm coming to me, I'd take the risk. For me the issue is always can I afford to keep a retired horse somewhere since I don't have a farm. If I did have a farm, it would be a totally different story.

AKB

Oct. 7, 2009, 08:10 AM

We own 3 horses who have bad x-rays. They have been wonderful family members. The navicular horse taught my daughter to event. Number 2 horse with bad x-rays stayed sound for 7 years, and took my other daughter through 4th level dressage. Number 3 with the bad x-rays is still going strongly, 7 years after his bad x-rays. We do also have a TB who passed his vetting with flying colors, who has not been completely sound since we got him 10 years ago. He has bad x-rays, but the vet who did the prepurchase exam didn't x-ray him.

It sounds like this horse is exactly what you want. If that is the case, I would say buy her and enjoy her.

shawneeAcres

Oct. 7, 2009, 10:43 AM

My take on this whole thing is that this is a 15 year old horse, NOT an 4, 8 or 10 yr old. If it WERE I would probably walk away, but she is 15 and flexs sound in spite of the xrays. I would EXPECT changes like this in a 15 yr old horse. THe question becomes is she SOUND now doing the work you want to do? If so then well worth the gamble, especially at $2K. I have a student right now shoing a SAINT of a pony, he is 22 yr old and has TOTALLY fused hocks. Yes, he is stiff and has days where he needs a little bute, BUT he packed her around, has done the SS with her, STILL wins the hacks and he WON an inhand HUGE class at our district 4-H show and was placed VERY HIGH out of 40 ponies (4th I think) at state in hand! Her 5 yr old sister has now "inherited him" to do walk/trot and cross rails with. We won't be asking him to do the 2' anymore after this year., just too much for him. Yes he gets adequan and yes he had this condition when they bought him 4 yrs ago, and they paid $3800 which was a STEAL for this guy!!

Mimi La Rue

Oct. 7, 2009, 02:06 PM

My horse was/still is 15 when I bought him. I bought him from my trainer for $4000. He was in her barn for about a year and he never had any problems. He flexed fine during his PPE but his x-rays were scary. I actually gave my trainer the check for him before the vet even came out because I knew he didn’t have any problems while in training with her and I knew at 15 he was going to require some maintenance one day. I took a chance on him and 6 months later we haven't had a vet out yet, except for worming and vaccinations. I give him Cosequin ASU and that’s it. He is a very easy keeper. I bought him to be a confindence builder and he has been exactly that. He will safely take me over any jump (he loves to jump – even jumps on his own in the turnout) and I know I can trust him. He knows everything, is very willing, sane, has a brain and just wants to please. I love him to death and the $4000 I paid has already been worth it. No regrets at all!

Auventera Two

Oct. 7, 2009, 02:25 PM

For 2K, I'd buy the horse. So what if she "breaks down" in three years or five years. ANY horse could break down tomorrow, regardless of how young, fit, and perfect they are today.

One of my trimming customers trail rides every weekend on her mare who was going to be put down because the navicular was so severe, and they couldn't get her sound. Looking at her feet, you think oh MY. HOw does this horse ride trails, barefoot? But she does. She pulled the shoes a few years ago, against veterinary/farriery orders, she found a trimmer who whacked off 2" of heel, and the mare went sound. She moved into my neck of the woods and I've been maintaining her the last year and a half. She'll never have pretty feet, but she goes like a rock star.

Another of my trimming customers was going to pass up a horse because he flexed off on the PPE and had stone bruises and very thin soles. The flexions were so bad, the vet concluded he'd never stay sound. Well, she's owned the horse over a year and put hundreds of miles on him and he's one of the soundest horses I know. He has never taken a lame step. She says it was totally worth the chance.

Heck, one of my own mares was a chronically foundered rescue who has cost me a fortune, but I wouldn't trade her for anything! She's worth her weight in gold packing kids around and she goes right down the trail like a trooper. She's funny and sweet, and a real joy to be around. And she's missing about 30% of each front coffin bone. She has arthritis in her knees, but if maintained properly, she is still perfectly usable and happy.

Fairview Horse Center

Oct. 7, 2009, 02:53 PM

Here is an article that was in The Chronicle recently
The Relativity Of Soundness
http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=23007043193535&ShowArticle_ID=1330503090565164

Showjumper28

Oct. 7, 2009, 02:59 PM

Some horses just don't feel pain like others do. I bought my first mare when she was 12. Did a PPE and she came up with Ringbone in both front. Due to the owner dropping the price to $2000 we decided to take a chance. She was a dressage horse I turned jumper and we competed at the 4'6 4'9 levels for a long time. Semi-retired her at 20, but we still hunter paced and jumped 3'6 for fun. Never ever had an off step in the front end. Her hind end turned out to be different in the end, but I had her until a bad accident in the paddock caused me to put her down at 24.

If the price is right and she is what you are looking for, it could definitely be worth the chance.

Fharoah

Oct. 7, 2009, 03:16 PM

I say enjoy, if your horse tells you he is sore work with your vet to get him comfortable. If he is happy and sound great! Hocks are very manageable. I wish you all the best!

Dressage_Diva333

Oct. 7, 2009, 04:11 PM

I'd say buy the horse. Like others have said, she's 15, and had a useful life. You must expect some changes. If your not an overly ambitious rider, she sounds like a good mount.

I've seen horses with perfect flexions come up lame in 6 months. Look at the whole picture. Horse has been sound for x amount of years, doing x level consistently. If this were a young horse, I'd walk away right there. She sounds like a good mare who will fit your goals. As long as you are aware of what the future might, or might not hold.

My advice would be NOT to keep this horse in a stall, keep her moving around in the pasture. I've got a 30ish year old gelding who is still 100% sound. I've had him for 11 years, and not once has he ever taken a lame step. I keep him in the pasture 24/7.

Truely good horses are hard to come by, if you enjoy everything about this mare, she's sound for the time being, and reliable... go for it.

Equine Studies

Oct. 7, 2009, 07:42 PM

So this afternoon I rode the mare-we had to go get her down the road on pasture (3 km away)-took the trailer down. Brought her back, rode in the tiny arena in the wind and subsequent noise. Then instead of trailering her back, the owner suggested I hack her back to the pasture and she'd come pick me up in the car. So......I hacked her, alone, in the crazy wind and sprinkling rain, on the shoulder of the road. And she was great-snorty a little here and there but perfectly safe. And she wasn't lame on the hard top road or the gravel shoulder-guess that was the deciding ride. Road safe and so far sound for $2000. Can't beat that.

Jacqui

Oct. 7, 2009, 08:09 PM

After reading this thread, I am so glad you decided to buy her and I'm sure she is glad too!

shawneeAcres

Oct. 7, 2009, 08:15 PM

YEs, and one other story (of many I cna relate!) a few years back, 6 years now, I was given a cute appy gelding that was a saint but absoltuely, positively DEAD LAME. He supposedly had navicular and they had these horrible eggbar wedges on. Now I am NOT a "barefoot" person, some of mine are and some aren't, I shoe horses that need it when they need it. But one look at this guys feet and we pulled his shoes, trimmed his toe short., took off some heel and put him on four grams of bute for a week. 6 years later he is and has been 100% sound. He is now 20 years old and is on the fourth person that is a student of mine who now owns him (he is passed from student to student as they outgrow his capabilities), he jumps 2' (really can't jump higher, just because he isn't atheletic enough, not because of soundness) and packs the beginners around and teaches them everything! He is THE MOST reliable horse I have, he goes to shows, still barefoot, and wins his share of ribbons. And someday he will retire right here!