I am really, really, REALLY MAD! Just a vent!

[Rivermeer]

Ok so my horse Enzo has had some soundness issues, nothing that we don't think is unfixable (once we find out what it is).

Anywhoo, vet is out Wed for soundness recheck, his feet look crappy for the farrier just being there 2 weeks prior. Put horses name on board for new farrier as old farrier is moving cross country in a week, and his feet need some serious attention. Vet calls new farrier to tell him what she would like to see on his hind feet.

Farrier comes to do my horse yestarday and finds 2 different type of shoes on his front feet. One is a Natural Balance and the other is some other type. New farrier calls vet and tells her what he finds. Both farrier and vet and now me are livid. The farrier left me both shoes, that Enzo had on his front. Both are nothing similar in size, shape or thickness!

I think when one of Enzo's shoe's were loose a few weeks ago, he threw any old shoe on that foot! Before he was shod in Natural Balance.

Just a vent!

Heather

[MistyBlue]

I'd be pissed off too.
Was that maybe causing some of the unsound movement?

[Rivermeer]

Well he is unsound in the back, he flexes on his right side in the upper limb on hind leg. Thank god he has not been ridden! We are probably going to radiograph his hocks next.

[Rivermeer]

I wanted to add, I am extremely pleased with the vet/farrier communication!

Heather

[Chardavej]

Good thing that farrier is leaving! Wow!! I'd be furious too!

[Alagirl]

considering how small things in other places can impact the body, I would not completely rule it out.

But it sucks, regardless of the impact.

[Guin]

You are saying that for two weeks of cleaning your horse's feet daily, you didn't notice that he had two different types of shoes on?

[Rivermeer]

Honestly I did not notice, and I feel horrible!

[Rick Burten]

It is not unheard of for a horse to have different types of shoes on paired feet, much as it is not unheard of/unusual for one foot of a pair to have wedges, shims, or other pads/appliances.

Regardless, I'm a bit confused. Did the first farrier reset the horse two weeks ago or just tighten a loose shoe? Or was there a shoe missing that had to be replaced? If there was a shoe missing and the horse was going to get reset or new shoes two weeks later, it may well be that the farrier, rather than putting a new shoe on the one foot and thereby creating potential problems, did indeed use a pre-worn shoe as a 'spare tire'. That should not have caused any problems so long as the shoe was appropriately fitted. Another alternative the farrier could have chosen would have been to just go ahead and do a full trim/reset/new shoes. Of course, he then risks experiencing the ire of the owner because he reset/shod the horse early.

Did you(the OP) bother to contact the first farrier and talk to him about the situation? Might well have saved you a lot of anguish and angst.

How about taking a picture of the two shoes so we can see exactly what you/the new farrier had to deal with. A picture or two of the front hooves taken at ground level from the front and sides would also be helpful.

I too would like to know how this event went undiscovered for two weeks and why the vet did not see it during the lameness evaluation. After all, you did trot the horse away from the vet after he flexed the hind, didn't you? It is also my experience with the vets of my acquaintance, that when performing a lameness evaluation, they will look at all four legs and particularly, the one diagonal to the hoof/leg in question.

[cloudyandcallie]

What Rick Burton said.

My farrier tells me what shoe he is putting on what hoof and why. (Right now one hind shoe is a size larger than the other 3 for a good reason--not the size of the hoof.) I've had different shoes on the front than on the hind, never what your horse had ( e.g.,alum front, steel hind).

Once at another barn, an owner didn't realize another farrier had alums on the front and steel on the hind hooves of her horse for 6 weeks, till the farrier came back and reshod the horse. She was mad at the farrier but madder at herself for not noticing for 6 weeks.

I do know that good vets check out diagonal hooves/legs for lameness issues.

I'd have called the first farrier and asked if there was a good reason for such shoeing, and how many times it had been done that way.

[BuddyRoo]

I wouldn't be so quick to be mad at anyone but YOURSELF for not noticing and asking questions. Honestly....I don't mean that in a mean way--it's just that if you aren't up to speed on your horse, you can't be his advocate. Spend some time educating yourself. And pay attention...ask questions.

There are all sorts of reasons why a person might do one thing with a left foot and another with a right. Seems mighty fickle to badmouth the farrier you've been using for some time w/o talking to him and asking WHY. What was he trying to accomplish? Clearly, you're not educated well enough to have noticed...was this any different than what had been going on all along?

Maybe the previous farrier WAS a hack. I dunno. i'm not there. But YOU are. So now would be a good time to invest some time in learning about feet and anatomy so that you can be in the best possible position to help your horse.

[Rivermeer]

Let me try and answer all the questions.

First at our barn we have a blackboard with the horses names that need to be done. Enzo was on the board about 8 weeks ago to be done. Farrier does my horse but does not put hind shoes on (farrier has done horse for over 2 yrs). Horse has always had the hind ones put one. Next day I noticed that Enzo had no hind shoes, but 2 new Natural balance shoes on front. I put him on the board again, and indicated he needed his hind shoes. I wasn't terribly upset because, he's not being ridden. Farrier comes once a week(normally) or more if there is a problem. I notice Farrier hasn't shown up for 3 weeks, other owners have called him, so I did not. He shows up a week later, one of the fronts is loose, basically he put a different shoe on the front and put his hinds on. His toes was getting long. He did not trim or balance any of the shoes and just put the shoes on as his feet were.

I honestly did not notice the difference on the 2 front feet. And I do feel like I failed him! I pick his feet, and it NEVER occured to me there were 2 different shoes on his front.

Vet has been here 4 times for lamness rechecks, I do not think he was flexed on the front on Wed. He was lunged and his hinds were flexed.

I have not been there in the last 6 months for his farrier work, as my horse is compliant and cross ties well. And I have a job.

I just found out today at the barn about the different shoes, as other people came to tell me and were mad.

The farriers last visit at our barn before moving was the couple weeks ago. I think he just did it 1/2 assed, as he did not bill one client for any of the work, weird, I know!

I left the shoes in my tack box to show the vet. I will try and tack "decent" pictures with my cell of the shoes tomarow morning.

I again realize I need to be more cogent when picking my horses feet, It just wasn't something I was looking for, and now I am very sorry.

[Rivermeer]

I also need to clarify the lameness rechecks by the vet started in June, not in the last 8 weeks.

[BuddyRoo]

Well, I would try to be there if you can...it's amazing what you can learn by watching and talking about your horse w/ your farrier. Again, I'm not knocking you...just saying that hoof care is a really big part of horse care and it's a good thing to be involved in for your own benefit.

I hope you get to the bottom of the lameness issue. Good luck.

[Rivermeer]

Buddy, the funny thing I used to be, but when I got an assignment for work, I couldnt be anymore. He was always on schedule for tuesdays, then it became he would show up anytime during the week. He became unpredictable as well as his work!

[Gry2Yng]

I wouldn't be so quick to be mad at anyone but YOURSELF for not noticing and asking questions. Honestly....I don't mean that in a mean way--it's just that if you aren't up to speed on your horse, you can't be his advocate. Spend some time educating yourself. And pay attention...ask questions.

There are all sorts of reasons why a person might do one thing with a left foot and another with a right. Seems mighty fickle to badmouth the farrier you've been using for some time w/o talking to him and asking WHY. What was he trying to accomplish? Clearly, you're not educated well enough to have noticed...was this any different than what had been going on all along?

Maybe the previous farrier WAS a hack. I dunno. i'm not there. But YOU are. So now would be a good time to invest some time in learning about feet and anatomy so that you can be in the best possible position to help your horse.


Please back off the OP. We pay professionals to do a professional job. Sometimes they disappoint us and we have to walk around kicking ourselves as horse owners. YOU PAY A SHOER FOR A SERVICE! Not to stand over his shoulder and make sure he nails on two similar shoes. Many horse owners have day jobs. We also have other things like children, parents, mortgages that get in the way of complete and total focus on everything that is our horse. The OP paid the shoer to shoe. If she wanted to be a shoer she would have gone to farrier school. I am a very detail oriented horse owner but I can't tell you if I would have noticed the two different shoes. On any given day I might not notice if my shoes match. On another day, I might be able to tell you how each shoe is wearing. No one can be vet, farrier, trainer, barn manager, parent, employee, etc. It is okay to be pissed the shoes are different.

[Rick Burten]

It is okay to be pissed the shoes are different.
Only if you know the reason why they are different.......

Had the OP be in contact with the farrier and heard his reasons/rationale, then s/he would have been in a position to make an informed decision as to whether or not s/he should be upset.

[Rick Burten]

Let me try and answer all the questions.

First at our barn we have a blackboard with the horses names that need to be done. Enzo was on the board about 8 weeks ago to be done. Farrier does my horse but does not put hind shoes on (farrier has done horse for over 2 yrs). Horse has always had the hind ones put one.
Right then and there you needed to call the farrier and discuss the situation with him.
Next day I noticed that Enzo had no hind shoes, but 2 new Natural balance shoes on front. I put him on the board again, and indicated he needed his hind shoes. I wasn't terribly upset because, he's not being ridden
OK, fair enough. Sort of a "no harm, no foul" situation.
Farrier comes once a week(normally) or more if there is a problem. I notice Farrier hasn't shown up for 3 weeks, other owners have called him, so I did not. He shows up a week later, one of the fronts is loose, basically he put a different shoe on the front and put his hinds on.
If the shoe was loose but not missing, why would he put a different shoe on? If, like me, you don't know then answer to that question, then you should have called him and asked.
He did not trim or balance any of the shoes and just put the shoes on as his feet were.
Since you weren't there, how do you know he didn't trim or balance the feet ? And, if that is actually the case, why didn't you discuss it with him over the phone or by e-mail or the like?
Vet has been here 4 times for lamness rechecks, I do not think he was flexed on the front on Wed. He was lunged and his hinds were flexed.[/quote[
A truly observant person might well have noticed the front shoe disparity.........
[quote]I have not been there in the last 6 months for his farrier work, as my horse is compliant and cross ties well. And I have a job.
All the more reason to have called the farrier once you saw something different.
I just found out today at the barn about the different shoes, as other people came to tell me and were mad.
So, were it not for the other people, you still wouldn't know about the disparity? And, why were they mad? Had they spoken with the farrier and gotten his reason(s)? To your knowledge, had the unmatched shoes caused any issues/problems for the horse? And since the shoes had been 'matched' before and you were having hind end issues, please don't say or imply that the dissimilar front shoes were causing a problem in the hind end.
The farriers last visit at our barn before moving was the couple weeks ago. I think he just did it 1/2 assed, as he did not bill one client for any of the work, weird, I know!
What does forgetting to bill one client have to do with the quality of the service/work provided? (here's a hint: nothing).
I left the shoes in my tack box to show the vet. I will try and tack "decent" pictures with my cell of the shoes tomarow morning.
I'm looking forward to seeing them. Remember to take some photos of the feet too.
I again realize I need to be more cogent when picking my horses feet, It just wasn't something I was looking for, and now I am very sorry.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment...."

[BuddyRoo]

Please back off the OP. We pay professionals to do a professional job. Sometimes they disappoint us and we have to walk around kicking ourselves as horse owners. YOU PAY A SHOER FOR A SERVICE! Not to stand over his shoulder and make sure he nails on two similar shoes. Many horse owners have day jobs. We also have other things like children, parents, mortgages that get in the way of complete and total focus on everything that is our horse. The OP paid the shoer to shoe. If she wanted to be a shoer she would have gone to farrier school. I am a very detail oriented horse owner but I can't tell you if I would have noticed the two different shoes. On any given day I might not notice if my shoes match. On another day, I might be able to tell you how each shoe is wearing. No one can be vet, farrier, trainer, barn manager, parent, employee, etc. It is okay to be pissed the shoes are different.

Well, the OP sure doesn't seem to be taking offense much as you are. So I stand by my statement. I qualified both of my posts and tried to be as tactful and helpful as possible.

Yes, many horse owners have day jobs. Me too! Imagine that! I also have a mortgage. A PT job tutoring kids. A dog. A roommate. A house and yard to maintain on my own. Two horses. Blah blah blah. Those all may be REASONS for not keeping up to speed, but they're not excuses.

I am always amazed how people seem to find the time to ride or take lessons but can't seem to work out their schedule to attend to things like veterinary appointments and farrier appointments. IMHO, it's all about priorities.

Now....once again, all I'm saying to the OP is that A) perhaps there was a POINT to having different shoes on B) I wouldn't be so quick to badmouth the farrier who did work she was happy with for several years over one incident. C) It might make sense to become more involved with this aspect of care especially given the current lameness issue.

Now you tell me where in all that I am being hard on the OP? I'm not. I've been in a position where I was ANGRY at someone who I was paying to care for my horse--when they didn't do as I had expected and I wasn't there to follow up. (I was working overseas) I was ANGRY and DISAPPOINTED in myself for not having made better arrangements. So I get the whole "beating yourself up" thing.

I'm just making suggestions regarding how to avoid this in the future. It sounds like the OP is interested in solutions here and isn't as easily offended as you are.

[cloudyandcallie]

If your horse has hoof issues/is lame, it is worth taking a sick day or vacation day to meet with farrier and vet and find out what is wrong and what is being done to correct it.

I'm not flaming the OP, just think that the farrier should have been contacted to find out why this shoeing was done this way.
And like others have said, when a "new" shoe is loose, a farrier does not remove it and put on a different type of shoe without a good reason.

[Gry2Yng]

Sorry. You are reading more hostility into my post that is actually there, and if there is some hostility, it is directed toward people who don't do their job. IMHO, if the shoer is going to put two different shoes on my horse, he should call me if I am not there. Some times I am there, some times I am not. Sometimes a vet appointment scheduled for 10am starts at 1:30 (yesterday), sometimes I can manage that, sometimes I cannot. That is no excuse for the service provider to change something without talking to me.

My only point is we beat ourselves up so easily. Sometimes it is nice to just vent. As you said, you have this experience. You try to make the best arrangements you can and someone lets you down. That doesn't make you irresponsible, it makes the other person unreliable and/or it means you used poor judgement. It sucks when it happens.

[BuddyRoo]

And like others have said, when a "new" shoe is loose, a farrier does not remove it and put on a different type of shoe without a good reason.

Well, the reason COULD be that the farrier is a hack and was taking shortcuts. That's a possibility too. Guy is leaving the area, doesn't care anymore, blah blah. Always a possibility. BUT, without talking to the guy, you just can't know for sure and I am very very hesitant to critique or judge a farrier's work w/o getting his/her input.

Not saying this is the case w/ the OP...but lots of owners will either misunderstand, misinterpret or just downright LIE about what their farrier said or did.

I have run into 3-4 horses in the last 2 months where people told me things like: "This horse was trimmed 4 weeks ago by so and so farrier, and he looks like crap! That guy is a hack!" I call BS. Horse hadn't been trimmed in 6 mos. I didn't rant about the farrier, I CALLED the farrier. It was a tough case and he had recommended that the horse be done every 3-4 weeks and owner wouldn't schedule. $$ issue.

"The farrier told me my horse only needs to be done every 4 months" Again, I call BS.

"The farrier put wedges on because my horse has thin soles"....hmmm....talk to farrier and vet and no...not exactly. Honest mistake in this case, but a mistake nonetheless.

And then of course there ARE the hacks.

[Gry2Yng]

BR: Just wanted to add, you are right. Your suggestions are great and you are very polite and positive and your above post is super. I am in the middle of something myself where I trusted a vet to do what I had asked (because after 3 hours of waiting for the vet to show up and then 2 hours of other BS and diagnostics I trusted the vet to do what I asked even tho I did not stand and watch the chiropratic work. The vet took it upon herself to give my horse some meds I did not want and had not requested. No harm was done except to my bank account and my relationship with the vet and the barn manager. I took it out on you.

FWIW, no BS. I can send you the email where the vet apologizes and says she thought it would be okay since we have been working together for years.

[BuddyRoo]

That sort of thing seems to happen more with equine vets than with small animal. I worked in a clinic for about 10 years and we didn't do jack without a signed consent form outlining precisely what we were authorized to do UNLESS it was emergent and was a matter of stabilizing the animal. That's one reason why I insist on being there unless it's emergent and something has to be done RIGHT NOW. I do understand the work issue...there are some days when I'm working 10 hours + or I'm out of town or I'm out of the country.

I can ABSOLUTELY understand your frustration. As I said, I've not been immune to disappointing incidents. Live and learn....and hopefully, not at the expense of the horse, ya know?

When it comes to feet though, I guess I'm much more hesitant to judge until I have a LOT more info because since I started trimming it's become apparent to me that I'd not like to have someone judging my work based on a client statement...I've got horses that have had issues and I've made a recommendation but the people just don't follow through. If someone looked at my work 6-8 weeks out not knowing where we began 6-8 weeks prior, I'm sure they'd have some nasty things to say about me as well. So...as a result, I tend to ask a lot of questions before I jump on anyone.

[Gry2Yng]

Thanks. Again, sorry for taking it out on you. Adding to it, it was not work but a sick child that forced me to leave. AND I have my horses on full service and in full training (I don't use the full training except to have the horses lunged if I cannot be there) I do this specifically so that the BM and trainer feel responsible and in the loop with regard to my horses in case I cannot be there. BM was left in charge and did not call me and she know SPECIFICALLY that no needles are to be inserted into my horses without my OK. So basically I had a plan and a back up plan (that I pay dearly for) and it all fell apart and they both just shrugged their shoulders and said I should have been there. (Really, they both said that.)

ETA: BM later apologized when I pointed out that I pay her to take care of things when I cannot be there and that if she was not up to it I would take my horses to someone who was. She said she was sorry and up to it. Horses are leaving anyway.

Sorry to OP for hijacking.

[BuddyRoo]

Well, I can certainly understand your frustration. I'm sorry. Sick kid on top of it=stressful stuff. I don't have kids....my dog seems to keep me in good practice though with his recurrent issues. Not the same, I know...but stressful.

I used to spend a lot of time in Libertyville....lovely area. They have some nice barns around there. A little too rich for my blood (and pocketbook!) but lovely nonetheless!

I hope things get straightened out for you and your horse as well.

[Rick Burten]

Not saying this is the case w/ the OP...but lots of owners will either misunderstand, misinterpret or just downright LIE about what their farrier said or did.
AMEN!!

[Rivermeer]

Here's what he had on his feet

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid=30552892&id=1515653198

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid=30552893&id=1515653198

[Rivermeer]

And I am suspecting that Enzo most likely lost the shoe in the field in night turnout in the field, and that's why he put the other shoe on.

And it this point I am not going to contact the old farrier, no reason at this point and it won't resolve anything.

I will try and get pics of his feet tonight.

I have fully said, i'm an idiot for not noticing. It never occured to me to compare his shoes when picking his feet!

And by the way, I am there for ALL his vet appointments.

[Rick Burten]

Here's what he had on his feet

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid=30552892&id=1515653198

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid=30552893&id=1515653198
The links don't work. It says you need to log-in to see the photos.

[Rick Burten]

And I am suspecting that Enzo most likely lost the shoe in the field in night turnout in the field, and that's why he put the other shoe on.
So you don't know whether the shoe was loose or missing And that's something you should have known. Of course, had you given the farrier a call in the first place, you'd have the answers to your questions and wouldn't have needed to vent.........
And it this point I am not going to contact the old farrier, no reason at this point and it won't resolve anything.
Just for your own information and 'peace of mind' are good reasons.
It never occured to me to compare his shoes when picking his feet!
Should be something you do sub-consciously and automatically.

[Gry2Yng]

Well, I can certainly understand your frustration. I'm sorry. Sick kid on top of it=stressful stuff. I don't have kids....my dog seems to keep me in good practice though with his recurrent issues. Not the same, I know...but stressful.

I used to spend a lot of time in Libertyville....lovely area. They have some nice barns around there. A little too rich for my blood (and pocketbook!) but lovely nonetheless!

I hope things get straightened out for you and your horse as well.

Honestly, the kid/dog thing is the same. If you don't have kids, the dog is your child. Sadly, once you have kids, the dogs get the short end of it. But don't let anyone tell you that what you feel for the dog or the horse is somehow less than what they feel for their child, it is just different.

Horses are fine, things are straight. FWIW, I hear you on the "jump on the farrier hack" problem. I travel to barns to teach lessons and the communication on the shoeing can get a bit "confused". Usually I don't even know the student's farrier and I try to be pretty careful about comments. Hope you are having a lovely fall day. Take care.

[rcloisonne]

Should be something you do sub-consciously and automatically.
Took the words right off my keyboard. ;)

[BuddyRoo]

Here's what he had on his feet

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid=30552892&id=1515653198

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid=30552893&id=1515653198

Yep...definitely NOT the same type of shoe.

[Mach Two]

Took the words right off my keyboard. ;)

Amen to that...I would suspect the horse had lost the shoe, and the farrier did not have or did not want to build a matching shoe.
I guess I'm on the other end of the spectrum, when my event horses were shod, I was there being one of the pain in the A&& owners who would ask what size shoe was going on, (I'd mention the size and type shoe I needed when I made the appointment) and I knew what size and type nails my horses needed, and have the small studs there to put in to keep the holes round for a reset. I examined shoes daily for loose clinches (which I could fix easily) and if I needed to order my own shoes, and have #4 plater nails on hand for my OTTB, to be sure the farrier had what I needed, I did that. Now that my retired event horse stays barefoot, I keep up with his hoof needs myself, and it's easy enough to study a little so you know what's going on when your farrier comes to work on your horse.

Be there and ask questions, most farriers are happy to tell you what they are doing and why.

To the OP...lessons learned...I'll bet you'll now look at shoes every time you look at your horse. If you tune into this, you can tell if ONE NAIL is loose when the horse takes ONE step on pavement, cement, or gravel. Sorry for your troubles. But I hate for any hardworking farrier to get a bum rap when an owner is not observant. I would not do what they do for anything!

[Alagirl]

So you don't know whether the shoe was loose or missing And that's something you should have known. Of course, had you given the farrier a call in the first place, you'd have the answers to your questions and wouldn't have needed to vent.........



lololol

if she did not see the horse between turn out and farrier appointment. Did not see 'psychic abilities' as requirement for horse ownership. seriously, that's what you pay people for at the boarding barn.

[cyberbay]

Well, it appears that this point is all resolved, but I did find BuddyRoo's initial post calling the OP a hack just simply not nice or kind -- especially since it was over a point that B'roo was then guilty of (jumping to conclusions, as I read it). And agreed with Gry2...

I see people try their best to keep up on their horse care, but the gulf can be so wide on what people actually describe and what they actually do. Some consider attentive care (for example, 2x/month visits) and what others consider inattentive care to BE (for example, those 2x/month visits).

[BuddyRoo]

Um....where did I call the OP a hack? I said that maybe the FARRIER was a hack. Read for comprehension. Please.

ETA: if you had actually READ the post, I think you'd have a better handle on things. As it is, you've done absolutely ZERO to help the case. Well done!

[slc2]

Anyone can have a bad day or make a mistake. He may have accidentally put the wrong shoe on the foot. People make mistakes. If you tell them, then they have some chance of correcting it.

After your horse is shod, you need to look at your horse, on that day. Inspect the shoes for tightness, positioning of nails, which shoes were put on, and were the feet trimmed correctly and are all the clenches tight. Put your horse on the longe line, and be sure the horse is not lame.

If there is a problem, phone the farrier and tell him. He will come out and correct it.

My horse's shoe came loose two days after he was shod.

I called the farrier.

He came back and corrected the problem.

I said thanks, and I paid for his trip to come over. It's a long way.

And when I have trouble, he'll be there, and he'll help me.

If you have bad farrier, ie, one that has a lot of problems keeping things straight, showing up, shoes fall off frequently, get another farrier. Tell the unreliable one, I'm sorry, but I am getting someone else, because you don't always show up. Good luck to you, best wishes.

[eruss]

I guess I'm on the other end of the spectrum, when my event horses were shod, I was there being one of the pain in the A&& owners who would ask what size shoe was going on, (I'd mention the size and type shoe I needed when I made the appointment) and I knew what size and type nails my horses needed, and have the small studs there to put in to keep the holes round for a reset.

You must've had a special farrier! I don't think I'd even show up if somebody told me what type/size shoe/nails I was supposed to use on there horse.

[equineartworks]

Being from Rivermeer's neck of the woods I will only say that finding a good farrier is full time job. We have a pile of people who call themselves farriers and trimmers, but very few who actually do it well. And most of them have daily fits of flakiness that defy any sort logic.

I say a Hail Mary that I have my farrier. Always there on time, always a perfect job. Rivermeer, if you need to vent, get in touch. :)

[cyberbay]

Apologies, B'roo... The sentence is:

"Maybe the previous farrier WAS a hack. I dunno. i'm not there. But YOU are. So now..."

What I read was: the previous farrier WAS a hack, and the OP is a hack, too.
The sentence can be read either way.

[Mach Two]

You must've had a special farrier! I don't think I'd even show up if somebody told me what type/size shoe/nails I was supposed to use on there horse.

Let me ask you this: in your truck, right now, do you have a set size one eventer plates, for the front and a set of 0's for the hind, and some #4 plater nails for a thin walled horse? Would you know without my saying so that my horse could not take a fourth nail on the right inside quarter? That a larger nail would split my horse's hoof wall, and would every other time, cause an abcess? And I had a shoer, once, (not my regular one) when I wasn't there, put on a set of 0's, instead of using a 1 and cutting a bit off the heel to get a good fit. The result? a backslide in the work I'd done to get a heel growing on that horse. If I had a farrier who did not trust that I knew my sport and my horse, I would not WANT him to show up. I realize all owners do not know what's going on, but I an not one of them.

I know, you're thinking "well, beatch, shoe your own horse" But if more owners learned more, and stayed involved more, there would be less errors.
I'm the first to stand up for a good farrier, but by golly, I'm on top of things too.

[eruss]

I know, you're thinking "well, beatch, shoe your own horse" But if more owners learned more, and stayed involved more, there would be less errors.
I'm the first to stand up for a good farrier, but by golly, I'm on top of things too.

I'm not thinking much except for how misguided you've been about farriery. I prefer to use nails which fit the shoe. Cutting heels of a shoe and messing up the heel of a horse makes absolutely no sense. Anatomy suggests your horse could take a nail on the inside quarter.

This is why I wouldn't even schedule an appointment with someone who demanded a certain shoe/nail size/type. Sounds like you learned this stuff from bad farriery and you seem to think you can push it on good farriers.

Even though your info isn't exactly correct, it's good you're trying to stay on top of things.

[reillyshoe]

This is the type of thread that really gets to me. If you are so mad, why not call your farrier and ask for an explanation before venting your displeasure to the Internet? I can think of reasons to apply different shoes, and you never even gave your farrier a chance to explain the logic (or mistake). For all we know, your horse has been shod this way for years and you never noticed.
Secondly, you might choose to direct your anger at your vet instead of your farrier. If your vet was also angry, then they did not notice the different shoes at the time of the lameness exam. Did they perform a physical exam, or just watch the horse jog? Did they pick up the feet? Would you expect them to notice such things?
Finally, with apologies for your sick child, you make a point of atating that you are present for ALL vet visits. If you could not be present for your farrier appointment, perhaps a call was in order anyway.

Don't be mad, just put in the effort to get the information you require to understand what your farrier is thinking before assuming the worst. By the way, how is your horse relative to past soundness exams?

[Mach Two]

For the record, I learned NOT to let my horse get lamed from a great farrier in Lexington who also worked on USET event horses. And when a farrier was good, I did not have to tell him to fit the shoes to the horse, instead of vica-versa.
And I have seen the xrays of this horse's right front, and KNEW he could not take a nail on the inside quarter, after my good farrier and good vet talked it over.

I don't want to derail the post...but don't assume I learned how to look after my horse's feet by casually watching bad farriery. I won't assume you are not willing to confer with a client on the needs of a horse either. I have no doubt you are a fine farrier, and I'd probably let you do what you thought best, but would warn you about the foot that could not take an inside quarter nail ;)

[eruss]

I don't want to derail the post...but don't assume I learned how to look after my horse's feet by casually watching bad farriery. I won't assume you are not willing to confer with a client on the needs of a horse either. I have no doubt you are a fine farrier, and I'd probably let you do what you thought best, but would warn you about the foot that could not take an inside quarter nail ;)

I won't derail the post after this either. Just because you wouldn't drive a nail somewhere doesn't mean it can't be driven. Also, I carry hammer, anvil, and fire, so the number the shoe company stamps into the shoe doesn't really matter to much. The uset event farrier lives in pa by the way. ;)

[Mach Two]

I won't derail the post after this either. Just because you wouldn't drive a nail somewhere doesn't mean it can't be driven. Also, I carry hammer, anvil, and fire, so the number the shoe company stamps into the shoe doesn't really matter to much. The uset event farrier lives in pa by the way. ;)

The farrier Dorothy Crowell used in 1996 lived in Lexington.

[reillyshoe]

BTW, I agree with Eruss. I would not work for someone who told me what size and style nail to use. It is inappropriate, as it would be for me to tell you what brand of saddle to ride in, or for me to tell the vet what size needle and how much anesthetic to use on a nerve block.
You either trust a professional, or you do not. I WOULD like to hear if a horse has experienced prior issues with a medial heel nail.

[grayarabpony]

BTW, I agree with Eruss. I would not work for someone who told me what size and style nail to use. It is inappropriate, as it would be for me to tell you what brand of saddle to ride in, or for me to tell the vet what size needle and how much anesthetic to use on a nerve block.
You either trust a professional, or you do not. I WOULD like to hear if a horse has experienced prior issues with a medial heel nail.

But I presume you'd be willing to discuss what the horse's needs are with the owner? I wouldn't hire someone who wouldn't listen to my input.

[eruss]

But I presume you'd be willing to discuss what the horse's needs are with the owner? I wouldn't hire someone who wouldn't listen to my input.

Listening to needs and suggesting size of/and products is completely different. I would hope all farriers are interested in the horses/owners needs.

[Mach Two]

BTW, I agree with Eruss. I would not work for someone who told me what size and style nail to use. It is inappropriate, as it would be for me to tell you what brand of saddle to ride in, or for me to tell the vet what size needle and how much anesthetic to use on a nerve block.
You either trust a professional, or you do not. I WOULD like to hear if a horse has experienced prior issues with a medial heel nail.

Well, a brand of saddle is not nailed to a horse's hoof. But if a customer came to me with a horse that needed a wider tree width than the saddle I usually rode, and they could send me a tracing ahead of time, or tell me a brand and size that was working (since all tree sizes are not incrementally the same ) I'd sure want to know so I could find something that fit correctly.
But I understand your points, both of you...and appreciate that you'd want to know about prior issues with a heel nail. Guess that was really my point...I want to be able to have a dialog with a farrier, respecting his or her knowledge of the craft, and him or her respecting my knowledge of my own horse and prior issues. Did not mean to come off as a smart-alec...just hoping the OP will ask more questions and know what she is looking at in the future. Peace, guys:yes:

[reillyshoe]

But I presume you'd be willing to discuss what the horse's needs are with the owner? I wouldn't hire someone who wouldn't listen to my input.

Of course,
however if someone tries to dictate the use of an E head nail, plater, slim or city head as well as the size- I might as well concede defeat in advance.

Remember, the OP was not there when the shoe was put on, and hasn't talked to the farrier.

[reillyshoe]

I am a professional farrier, but if I was to hire Eric (Eruss) to shoe my horse I would tell him to use whatever nail he was most comfortable using.

I'd even let him pick the brand of shoe.

[Rick Burten]

I am a professional farrier, but if I was to hire Eric (Eruss) to shoe my horse I would tell him to use whatever nail he was most comfortable using.

I'd even let him pick the brand of shoe.
I don't believe that for a minute. :eek: You'd hand him some Sigafoos contraption and a tub of mastic. :D

Then you'd take up more of his day while you ran your horse over some force plates or the like. I know how you researchers are...........

By the way, I've still got the headache you gave me over on horseshoes.com.

[reillyshoe]

I don't believe that for a minute. :eek: You'd hand him some Sigafoos contraption and a tub of mastic. :D

Then you'd take up more of his day while you ran your horse over some force plates or the like. I know how you researchers are...........

By the way, I've still got the headache you gave me over on horseshoes.com.

Get out the Advil, I haven't told you half the story!

[goeslikestink]

Please back off the OP. We pay professionals to do a professional job. Sometimes they disappoint us and we have to walk around kicking ourselves as horse owners. YOU PAY A SHOER FOR A SERVICE! Not to stand over his shoulder and make sure he nails on two similar shoes. Many horse owners have day jobs. We also have other things like children, parents, mortgages that get in the way of complete and total focus on everything that is our horse. The OP paid the shoer to shoe. If she wanted to be a shoer she would have gone to farrier school. I am a very detail oriented horse owner but I can't tell you if I would have noticed the two different shoes. On any given day I might not notice if my shoes match. On another day, I might be able to tell you how each shoe is wearing. No one can be vet, farrier, trainer, barn manager, parent, employee, etc. It is okay to be pissed the shoes are different.

well i think its a miss communication problem on parties

1- was wrriten on a blackbaord of what was required- whos to say someone else didnt come along and rub a bit out to fit another bit in -- as in another client

2-- relays on b/o as horse in full board --
so intructed of what required - to inform what to take place

3-- farrier - 3rd party hearing what from the 1st party - ie the owner
did as was instructed - was it a loose shoe after 4weeks from the 1st blackboard apointment or a lost shoe

so b/o says - replace the shoe so he did or did he say to the barn owner have you the shoe
she says yes and gives him a spare shoe

hence why odd shoes perhaps and off course there is and might be a reason why he had odd shoes

my point is there is to many sernerios to say why if your not there in attendance

if one was away and two people were fighting can one honestly say what went on and take sides - no they cant

so its a mis communication on all parties

[cloudyandcallie]

Let me ask you this: in your truck, right now, do you have a set size one eventer plates, for the front and a set of 0's for the hind, and some #4 plater nails for a thin walled horse? Would you know without my saying so that my horse could not take a fourth nail on the right inside quarter? That a larger nail would split my horse's hoof wall, and would every other time, cause an abcess? And I had a shoer, once, (not my regular one) when I wasn't there, put on a set of 0's, instead of using a 1 and cutting a bit off the heel to get a good fit. The result? a backslide in the work I'd done to get a heel growing on that horse. If I had a farrier who did not trust that I knew my sport and my horse, I would not WANT him to show up. I realize all owners do not know what's going on, but I an not one of them.

I know, you're thinking "well, beatch, shoe your own horse" But if more owners learned more, and stayed involved more, there would be less errors.
I'm the first to stand up for a good farrier, but by golly, I'm on top of things too.

I'm with you.:lol: My first boarding barn had a very anal BO who was on top of everything, even with good farrier and vet, and I could relax and arrive after work to learn from BO what was done to my horses. Other barns, not so good, one BO had shoes taken off of WB and TB so they could have the "natural mustang hooves":confused:, hey mine weren't mustangs! So I learned to show up early, have horses ready, ask questions, following directions, etc. I pay on time and don't dispute bills. And I call my vet and farrier when I have questions.............I cannot imagine having a vet or farrier who doesn't communicate with the owner or the BO.
So the first call by OP should have been to the farrier, not to the keyboard to post on coth.

[cloudyandcallie]

well i think its a miss communication problem on parties

1- was wrriten on a blackbaord of what was required- whos to say someone else didnt come along and rub a bit out to fit another bit in -- as in another client

2-- relays on b/o as horse in full board --
so intructed of what required - to inform what to take place

3-- farrier - 3rd party hearing what from the 1st party - ie the owner
did as was instructed - was it a loose shoe after 4weeks from the 1st blackboard apointment or a lost shoe

so b/o says - replace the shoe so he did or did he say to the barn owner have you the shoe
she says yes and gives him a spare shoe

hence why odd shoes perhaps and off course there is and might be a reason why he had odd shoes

my point is there is to many sernerios to say why if your not there in attendance

if one was away and two people were fighting can one honestly say what went on and take sides - no they cant

so its a mis communication on all parties

I agree with GLS. And the miscommunication could have been cleared up with the first call going to the farrier from OP.

[Rick Burten]

Let me ask you this: in your truck, right now, do you have a set size one eventer plates, for the front and a set of 0's for the hind,
Steel or aluminum? clipped or unclipped? Regardless, yes I do(my shoe rack has 100+ pegs on it). Along with a whole bunch of other types and sizes of shoes from several manufacturers. And bar stock and the tools to fabricate whatever the job calls for. Did I mention the plastic/urethane shoes I carry? Or the variety of pads both leather and synthetic? How about the glue-on options? Did I mention them? No? Well, I should have.......
and some #4 plater nails for a thin walled horse?
Yep. Along with race nails, city head nails, regular head nails, E-head nails in just about every size and from a variety of manufacturers.
Would you know without my saying so that my horse could not take a fourth nail on the right inside quarter?
Probably. Besides, why can't your horse take that nail? And, why would it be necessary in the first place?
That a larger nail would split my horse's hoof wall, and would every other time, cause an abcess?
Then someone doesn't know how to nail properly. And, using a 4PS in a size 0 Steel eventer, let alone a size 1 steel Eventer is an invitation to a disaster.
And I had a shoer, once, (not my regular one) when I wasn't there, put on a set of 0's, instead of using a 1 and cutting a bit off the heel to get a good fit.
So? You got a pretender to the throne.
The result? a backslide in the work I'd done to get a heel growing on that horse.
Easy enough to fix. Besides, cutting the heels of a hoof back usually ends up requiring a larger shoe, not a smaller one. Of course, if the shoer didn't know how to properly fit the shoe in the first place,......................
If I had a farrier who did not trust that I knew my sport and my horse, I would not WANT him to show up.
Regardless of what you do or do not know, when you(the owner) lead that horse up to my mats, you get to tell me what you do with the horse, any issues the horse is having, and what you [reasonably] expect the horse to be able to do. You can also inquire about what type I shoe I plan on using. And it stops right there. If you know, better than I, how to shoe your horse, then you can rent my tools and equipment for $200.00/hour(after signing the necessary legal documents to save and hold me harmless from any court action for damages of any kind, arising out of your use of my toos and equipment), purchase your materials from me or whomever you choose(again, after signing a waiver of liability if you purchase the materials from me), and shoe the damn horse yourself.
I realize all owners do not know what's going on, but I an not one of them.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Regardless, even though we may discuss the procedures, you still don't tell me what to do or how to do it.
I know, you're thinking "well, beatch, shoe your own horse" But if more owners learned more, and stayed involved more, there would be less errors.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
I'm the first to stand up for a good farrier, but by golly, I'm on top of things too.
Being on top of things is one thing. Telling the farrier how to do his/her job is another.

Perhaps you should consider this axiom; "The more explicit your instructions to the farrier, the more likely s/he is to do what s/he damn well pleases........"

[Rivermeer]

So one of the farriers answer this for me, is it ok to put a different shoe on the other front foot with out reseting the old shoe on the other? His hoof was growing over the shoe from where it was originally set.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for farriers! I could never do that work. It's back breaking, long days in hot/cold weather. I realize it's a science and also art. But it seems there is a good ole boy mentality going on here. I realize were i screwed up, believe me I will never pick his feet again, with out paying more attention. I feel like if he would have cut off my horses leg, you would have turned it around on me.

Everyone wants to know why not call him? That was his LAST time at our barn, it was 2 weeks ago, he's may have moved across the country now. New farrier was upset, with the shoes and condition of his feet.

If anyone knows how to post my pics on here from facebook, feel free (i dont know how). I also added new pics of his feet from last night.

Please let me know when some of you are less perfect.

[eruss]

[quote=Rivermeer;4417521]So one of the farriers answer this for me, is it ok to put a different shoe on the other front foot with out reseting the old shoe on the other? His hoof was growing over the shoe from where it was originally set.

I prefer to put on the same shoe if possible but in a pinch anything is better than nothing. If I were moving and showed up to a barn with a bunch of horses to shoe written on a bb that I wasn't prepared for. I'd probably do what this guy did. Do whatever it takes to keep the horses going until the next farrier comes in and takes over.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for farriers! I could never do that work. It's back breaking, long days in hot/cold weather. I realize it's a science and also art. But it seems there is a good ole boy mentality going on here. I realize were i screwed up, believe me I will never pick his feet again, with out paying more attention. I feel like if he would have cut off my horses leg, you would have turned it around on me.

Regardless of the manufacturer, store bought shoes are still just a piece of metal. Maybe this guy didn't have a nb shoe to replace the old one. He got a shoe on there and that's better than nothing at all. Although I probably would have made it look like a nb shoe.

Everyone wants to know why not call him? That was his LAST time at our barn, it was 2 weeks ago, he's may have moved across the country now. New farrier was upset, with the shoes and condition of his feet.

I wouldn't call him. Once you're no longer a customer, the farriers attitude may change. ;)


Please let me know when some of you are less perfect.

I don't see much of a problem with you not noticing the different shoes. Not many of my customers would notice either. I get paid to take care of there horses feet. If there's a problem they call me and I come check it out.

[Mach Two]

.

Easy enough to fix. Besides, cutting the heels of a hoof back usually ends up requiring a larger shoe, not a smaller one. Of course, if the shoer didn't know how to properly fit the shoe in the first place,......................



"

My typing error, obviously, because two of you guys have jumped to the conclusion that the guy who put the too-small shoe on cut the HORSE'S heel. What my GOOD farrier did was take a larger shoe, and cut some off the heel of the SHOE to make it the right size for my horse that needed heel support, without having a (shoe) heel that stuck out and got grabbed.
The "hack job" involved a smaller shoe than what was needed being put on because the guy didn't have a set of the plates I was using, in the size I was using. He was the sort of guy who would nail on a caulked shoe on the front of a horse because it was what he had that was close in size. It wasn't me who called him in a pinch, when the regular farrier was away, it was the well meaning barn owner, when my horse had a missing shoe, and the BO did not think to go look for it.

Yeah, Rick, I get it, you have a full supply of stuff. And you are likely a master at what you do. And you hate owners who want to have input on their horse's needs for the sport they do, and for the horse's way of going. And for all I know, you know better than I do how my horse went, when I was on him twice a day, six days a week, without ever having seen him walk, trot, canter, gallop, and jump. You win the throne. ;)

[rcloisonne]

I feel like if he would have cut off my horses leg, you would have turned it around on me.
If you didn't notice he'd cut off your horse's leg for two weeks, then yes, you would be equally to blame. ;)

Look, nobody knows everything. However, there are basics every horse owner should be aware of at all times. Symptoms of colic, laminitis and other hoof issues including proper balance (90% of all lameness originates in the hooves), proper deworming and vaccination schedules, etc..

If you don't know these things, FIND OUT. The information is out there for anyone who takes the time to learn. Stop being a victim of your own ignorance. Your horse will thank you.

[sa11yb]

Wow, I love how one person's vent turns into a pile on of how they suck as a horse owner. I bow down to all of you other horse owners who have turned into expert armchair farriers.

[cloudyandcallie]

If you didn't notice he'd cut off your horse's leg for two weeks, then yes, you would be equally to blame. ;)

Look, nobody knows everything. However, there are basics every horse owner should be aware of at all times. Symptoms of colic, laminitis and other hoof issues including proper balance (90% of all lameness originates in the hooves), proper deworming and vaccination schedules, etc..

If you don't know these things, FIND OUT. The information is out there for anyone who takes the time to learn. Stop being a victim of your own ignorance. Your horse will thank you.

I'm going to thank my farrier when he come out tomorrow for telling me about crossapol, it is working. This is only my 3rd farrier in my lifetime, the one we had when I was growing up is deceased, the one who trained under him has cut back because he's in his 70s, and my current farrier did my horses when I was at a barn where he worked 9 yrs ago. All 3 great guys, all experts, all taught me a lot. I cannot imagine using one of the pseudo-farriers around here, the ones who claim to have instantly "cured" rotation and club feet on horses belonging to people I know. While we have to go over to SC to get a good equine vet, we do have several very good farriers around SE GA.

I'm not an expert, but I pay an expert farrier to do what is best for my horse.. And I'm neurotic, so I notice if one nail is loose, much less if shoes don't match, in addition to noticing any scratch, bump, bite, etc., on my horse.

But if OP was not present when the shoe was put on her horse, how does she know that someone at her barn didn't tell the farrier to put that shoe on? I've found lots of other shoes, all sizes and types, in pastures when I was hunting those belonging to my horses.

As rcloisonne says, find out, ask questions of your farrier, listen and learn. We don't know why the shoe was put on OP's horse, but that farrier did and she should have called him first.

[Gry2Yng]

Wow, I love how one person's vent turns into a pile on of how they suck as a horse owner. I bow down to all of you other horse owners who have turned into expert armchair farriers.

Amen! Seven years and three long format CCI*/CCI**'s later, my farrier shows up, does his job and TELLS ME how to care for my horses' feet. We have a trusting relationship, he gets a enormous Christmas gift full of corned beef sandwiches and treats for his hunting dog. Sometimes he gives me 15 minutes notice that he is showing up.

I have been sold so much bullshit regarding shoeing over the course of the past 10 years, I can't tell you which way is up. It is an art and a science that I do not have time to master. I hire a master and I don't tell him how to do his job. I WILL call him if I don't understand what he has done. But I can tell you he sure as hell would have known what kind of shoe was on the other foot and if all he had in his truck (god forbid) was something that wouldn't match he would have called and told me to leave the horse in for a day with a diaper and some coflex on his foot until he could make the proper shoe.

ETA: And when I (used to) go south to compete he makes up enough shoes to get me through and is perfectly happy to have the farrier I use call him to discuss in case something changes due to footing/weather etc. I has always worked out perfectly.

[Rick Burten]

Yeah, Rick, I get it, you have a full supply of stuff. And you are likely a master at what you do. And you hate owners who want to have input on their horse's needs for the sport they do, and for the horse's way of going.
No ma'am(?). Go back and read what I wrote. This time try doing it for content in context with comprehension. You'll quickly find that you owe me an apology. I don't expect one, but you owe me one.
And for all I know, you know better than I do how my horse went, when I was on him twice a day, six days a week, without ever having seen him walk, trot, canter, gallop, and jump.
Probably so....
You win the throne. ;)
Thanks. I didn't know it was up for grabs.

[Rivermeer]

I wish I knew how to use the quote function to answer questions.

[slc2]

I don't suppose the farriers posting here have ever seen any farrier that didn't know his stuff?

They are out there. And once a person has had a couple of bad ones, it's pretty hard to relax. There are shoers out there who simply can't trim four feet evenly, or who make very poor choices in how to shoe individual horses. There's a lot of judgement and there's a lot of short term fixes that don't do too well in the long run.

But the farrier isn't always bad. Sometimes the customer just wants things done a certain way or doesn't understand shoeing or both. Sometimes the customer wants things that are actually bad for the horse. Sometimes what the customer wants just makes the farrier's life more difficult. Sometimes what the customer wants only causes the customer to have a bigger shoeing bill. Sometimes what the customer wants doesn't hurt anything at all.

Being a farrier isn't a license to be rude. There is still such a thing as manners in the world. I have watched enough people walk away saying, 'Jeez! I just asked a QUESTION!' Too many farrier - customer relations end with one person very angry about a question, and the other very upset and hurt.

And I think the idea that a customer can't even ask a question or state a preference is way, way wrong. Farriery is a service occupation, and customer preference management, in an intelligent and professional manner, is part of a service occupation.

What my farriers (I had another when living in another city, but usually keep the same farrier as long as possible) usually do is very diplomatically say, 'I don't do it that way, but if you really feel strongly about it, I can do that for you', or 'You're welcome to try it if you want, we can see how it goes'. Then he will proceed to explain, very pleasantly and casually, why he chooses to do it the way he does. Usually by the time the farrier is getting ready to use the 'special nails' or the 'special shoes', the customer has understood the reasoning of the farrier and shouts out, 'No! I...I don't want that any more!', LOL. The farrier smiles and takes out his not so special nails, LOL. No one gets mad, and maybe the customer learns a little bit.

It is true that the customer usually doesn't know as much about shoeing as the farrier. There is a lot of bad information about shoeing out there, and some customers get absolutely fanatical ideas and won't listen to anyone. And it's also very true that sometimes, it's perfectly fine to let the customer make the choices. Unless the farrier feels it will harm the horse let the customer give it a try.

But it is also VERY true that all farriers do not agree in how to shoe a given horse. In fact, in talking to different farriers, I've learned that there is a great deal of very strong opinion running around among farriers, too, and one can ask several really top notch farriers a question (doesn't matter what the question is) and get several answers that are either somewhat or very different.

That means that there is usually some leeway in what is done, and that the farrier can, in fact, allow for some customer preference and some different ideas.

'I'm willing to do that for you, because I don't think it will harm your horse, but it wasn't in my plan. Here's why...'

It's also true that farriers get blamed unfairly for a lot, and in a weird way, it is a very stressful job at times, mostly because customers are horse people and horse people are opinionated too, I've seen more than one farrier blamed for 'laming' a horse by incorrect trimming or shoeing that was actually occuring because the horse had bruised feet, went too long between shoeings so a trim was a big change in angles, or because the horse was basically unsound (and the seller was trying to sell him without revealing that !)...or...because the choices the owner insisted on to the farrier actually caused a problem.

That is no reason to lay into an innocent customer who just makes a request, or to assume everyone needs to be told, 'my way or the highway'.

This can even be a brag point for farriers, 'nobody tells me what to do, I'm so good'. [/I] This is supposed to be a status symbol and a sign someone has 'made it'. Sometimes this is a man's way of dealing with female customers.

I prefer something different. Instead of viewing a question or a request as a threat to one's authority and skill, educate, talk, communicate.

The few farriers I've had are absolutely incredible. I trust them that they both know the right choices to make, and that they have very, very good hand skills and very good eye.

I trust also, that I can ask a question, or make a request, and that the farrier will present BOTH sides, 'here are the pluses and here are the minuses of that'. And that they will tell me if they can't do it, why they can't, and not just say i am not allowed to question their authoritah.

I learn so much from my farrier. I used to have time once in a while to chat with him, and for heaven's sake, I always wished I had a notebook and pen, because I wanted to be sure and not forget a thing.

I was talking to another farrier one day. He said, 'You know what the other farriers around here call your farrier?'

I thought, oh no, what's this about?

He grinned and said, 'We call him God'. (It's a popular slang in our area for someone with a lot of skill and knowledge, a really super horse is called 'God's Horse' in this area, too, so please don't be offended, it's just the local slang).

I asked why. He said that because he makes good choices, has a great eye and hand skills, and because he is so fast, and so accurate.

But he had something else. He was just as patient with his customers as with the horses. A wonderful man.

[Gry2Yng]

Great post, slc2.

But it is also VERY true that all farriers do not agree in how to shoe a given horse. In fact, in talking to different farriers, I've learned that there is a great deal of very strong opinion running around among farriers, too, and one can ask several really top notch farriers a question (doesn't matter what the question is) and get several answers that are either somewhat or very different.

This is the hard part for me. I have traveled south for long periods of time and used the farriers recommended by whomever I am training with. I stand with them during the shoeings and chat and try to learn. They have all been great, they try to stick with my farriers program because they seem to have respect for each other and know that I am only a short term client. I will admit to getting confused over the lack of agreement. I don't know enough to really take it all in and process it. So when I come home and tell Joe that Rick said "blah, blah, blah" and he says yeah, but for your horse I like to do "dah dee dah" it runs over my head.

Thinking about it, I just realized the only shoer I EVER had a problem with is the one that dissed on the previous shoer.

[Rick Burten]

I don't suppose the farriers posting here have ever seen any farrier that didn't know his stuff?
Assumes facts not in evidence.
They are out there.
Really? Who knew?
And once a person has had a couple of bad ones, it's pretty hard to relax. There are shoers out there who simply can't trim four feet evenly, or who make very poor choices in how to shoe individual horses. There's a lot of judgement and there's a lot of short term fixes that don't do too well in the long run.
Kinda like Doctors, Lawyers and other assorted Indian Chiefs......
But the farrier isn't always bad. Sometimes the customer just wants things done a certain way or doesn't understand shoeing or both. Sometimes the customer wants things that are actually bad for the horse. Sometimes what the customer wants just makes the farrier's life more difficult. Sometimes what the customer wants only causes the customer to have a bigger shoeing bill. Sometimes what the customer wants doesn't hurt anything at all.
Got that right.
Being a farrier isn't a license to be rude.
Never knew you needed a license. Regardless, most farriers who have been in the profession for a length of time, really have little to no tolerance for and refuse to suffer fools and other doofi that infect the world of horses.
There is still such a thing as manners in the world.
Some times the 'kid gloves' have to come off.
I have watched enough people walk away saying, 'Jeez! I just asked a QUESTION!' Too many farrier - customer relations end with one person very angry about a question, and the other very upset and hurt.
Communication is a two way street. Personally, I have never failed to answer, usually in depth, any reasonable question asked by a client/customer.
And I think the idea that a customer can't even ask a question or state a preference is way, way wrong.
Whom here has said any differently?
Farriery is a service occupation, and customer preference management, in an intelligent and professional manner, is part of a service occupation.
I have found that "It Depends".....
It is true that the customer usually doesn't know as much about shoeing as the farrier. There is a lot of bad information about shoeing out there, and some customers get absolutely fanatical ideas and won't listen to anyone. And it's also very true that sometimes, it's perfectly fine to let the customer make the choices. Unless the farrier feels it will harm the horse let the customer give it a try.
Generally speaking, there are always options. Trying to tell the farrier how to do his/her job is not one of them.
.......one can ask several really top notch farriers a question (doesn't matter what the question is) and get several answers that are either somewhat or very different.

That means that there is usually some leeway in what is done, and that the farrier can, in fact, allow for some customer preference and some different ideas.
Like I said, asking/requesting is one thing, telling/demanding, quite another...
It's also true that farriers get blamed unfairly for a lot, and in a weird way, it is a very stressful job at times, mostly because customers are horse people and horse people are opinionated too, I've seen more than one farrier blamed for 'laming' a horse by incorrect trimming or shoeing that was actually occuring because the horse had bruised feet, went too long between shoeings so a trim was a big change in angles, or because the horse was basically unsound (and the seller was trying to sell him without revealing that !)...or...because the choices the owner insisted on to the farrier actually caused a problem.
I was "down" with you right up until that last sentence. Again, requests are one thing, demands, another.
That is no reason to lay into an innocent customer who just makes a request, or to assume everyone needs to be told, 'my way or the highway'.
Speaking only for myself, the only time I invoke my 'right' to say 'my way or the highway' is when the customer tells me how to do my job and what to use to do it. Are you starting to see a pattern here?
This can even be a brag point for farriers, 'nobody tells me what to do, I'm so good'. [/I] This is supposed to be a status symbol and a sign someone has 'made it'.
Since I am self-employed, you are basically correct. No one gets to tell me how to do my job. Has nothing to do with "look at me, I'm so good", rather it has to do with I am the captain of my ship and you don't get to tell me how to sail it.
Sometimes this is a man's way of dealing with female customers.
Assumes facts not in evidence. At least pertaining to farriers that is......
I prefer something different. Instead of viewing a question or a request as a threat to one's authority and skill, educate, talk, communicate.
Not one farrier that has responded has said anything different. The crux of the matter is not dealing with questions, rather it deals with demands.
I trust also, that I can ask a question, or make a request, and that the farrier will present BOTH sides, 'here are the pluses and here are the minuses of that'. And that they will tell me if they can't do it, why they can't, and not just say i am not allowed to question their authoritah.
Quite reasonable.
I was talking to another farrier one day. He said, 'You know what the other farriers around here call your farrier?'

I thought, oh no, what's this about?

He grinned and said, 'We call him God'.
Hmmmm, he must know me......;)

[reillyshoe]

As far as I can tell from what I have read, there is only one person who has the answers to the OPs questions about her horse. Venting on a public forum might make you feel better, but if answers are what you are looking for a call to the last farrier would be more productive than asking the question to the Internet.

Those who have posted hare about positive working relations with their farriers have almost universally mentioned communication as a plus. How can anyone here presume to know the scenario that took place, and why the farrier made the choices that were made? It is possible that what was done made sense. I hope the OPs relationship with the new farrier involves more communicating than was recounted here. Out of curiosity, what was listed on the bill for replacing the shoe? Was there a bill for replacing the shoe?

[findeight]

I wish I knew how to use the quote function to answer questions.


Just click on the quote icon and you can delete all but what you want to answer directly.

But, I wouldn't bother, really. This has gone way off what you wanted anyway and some are sniping at one another over unrelated issues and statements not involving you.

Live and learn. You did not notice, probably should have but it was a long way from his heart, as they say. Depending on second and third hand information and versions of what transpired is also not the best way to go. It's over, situation rectified so move on.

I would not call the guy that moved across the country, at this point he may not even remember a single shoe a month ago and, even if he does, may not care to discuss it...and we are all assuming he will ANSWER the call-and that's not a given. Let it go.

I'd concentrate on 4 months of lamness "evaluations" with no x rays or diagnosis-other then "yeah, it's lame"? Rads are expensive but cheaper then repeat calls for a visual. Honestly, he needs a full work up with blocks. Save you in the long run and tell you IF it really is fixable, or not. And you cannot assume it is unless you know WHY he is lame. Sorry but, if this has been going on since June? I would be worried about that more then this now solved shoe issue.

[cloudyandcallie]

As far as I can tell from what I have read, there is only one person who has the answers to the OPs questions about her horse. Venting on a public forum might make you feel better, but if answers are what you are looking for a call to the last farrier would be more productive than asking the question to the Internet.

Those who have posted hare about positive working relations with their farriers have almost universally mentioned communication as a plus. How can anyone here presume to know the scenario that took place, and why the farrier made the choices that were made? It is possible that what was done made sense. I hope the OPs relationship with the new farrier involves more communicating than was recounted here. Out of curiosity, what was listed on the bill for replacing the shoe? Was there a bill for replacing the shoe?

This is what all of us have been saying, but you said it well.
As my farrier said this morning when he came to shoe, call if I need anything or have a problem And he was texting a woman whose horse had foundered, and was on his way to meet with the vet for that horse.
Gotta have communication all ways, vets, owners, farriers, etc.

[Auventera Two]

Farriers need to take inventory of how they treat clients. I can't believe some of the attitudes on here. I agree with Mach. When I was paying a farrier to do my horses, I asked a hundred questions and tried to make sure I understood the "what" and "why" of everything that went on.

Now that I trim my own horses, honest to god, the thought of having to put my horse's feet in someone else's hands would be terrifying for me. I'd probably need a sedative before turning them over to someone else. LOL.

I love the words of Elmer Bandit's owners - the 37 year old CTR horse who is still competing. The owner said she learned to shoe the horse herself because it just worked out better when she was the one in charge of every little detail. After all, she has spent decades on that horse and over 20,000 miles on the trail with him. NOBODY in this world can possibly know more about her horse's feet than she does.

When I trim a horse for someone, I watch the horse walk to me, and walk away, and do a circle each way. I know what looks right to me, but I always ask the owner - do YOU notice anything different, or how does this movement compare to how your horse normally moves. I see the horse for 30 minutes every 6 weeks. The owner sees the horse every day, sometimes multiple times per day. I've had an owner tell me - this horse has to be set at 54 degrees on both fronts or he goes lame. Well, I don't trim to angles, so lets talk about this. We came to some sort of agreement where I'm happy, owner is happy, and horse is sound. I didn't just walk off because the owner said - this is the way its gonna be. They obviously have a REASON why they say 54 is what works. So what is it? Lets talk about it.

[equineartworks]

I will repeat my thoughts, unless you live in this area you really don't get the farrier situation. :lol:

I have taken time off from work to wait for the "good" farriers only to have them not show up, show up three hours late, show up 6 hours late-all sorts of crazy times. Then there are the times when they show up on the wrong day and tell you that you forgot. :mad: If you like or need your job, best not try to be there to meet the farrier if you want to keep it!

You can also call them until you turn blue...they wont call you back, ever. The will call you and leave a message to schedule about a week in advance and you better be there because you aren't going to get through to them to reschedule. Go ahead and ask questions...you might get a grunt or two. Truthfully, the only time I had a good experience with the farriers I dealt with prior to my new farrier (whom I WORSHIP) was when I would say "if you are too busy to care for the horses I can look for someone new". Then they are wonderful for two trims and back to bad.

If I hadn't had a referral to Cornell for Dumplin' and had my current farrier recommended to me, I probably would have made my DH apply to the Cornell Farrier school because there is literally one or two good, reliable, decent, GOOD, farriers in this whole area. It's crazy!

[Kyzteke]

Please back off the OP. We pay professionals to do a professional job. Sometimes they disappoint us and we have to walk around kicking ourselves as horse owners. YOU PAY A SHOER FOR A SERVICE! Not to stand over his shoulder and make sure he nails on two similar shoes. Many horse owners have day jobs. We also have other things like children, parents, mortgages that get in the way of complete and total focus on everything that is our horse. The OP paid the shoer to shoe. If she wanted to be a shoer she would have gone to farrier school. I am a very detail oriented horse owner but I can't tell you if I would have noticed the two different shoes. On any given day I might not notice if my shoes match. On another day, I might be able to tell you how each shoe is wearing. No one can be vet, farrier, trainer, barn manager, parent, employee, etc. It is okay to be pissed the shoes are different.

Yes, we pay for services and for some professional advice. But I'm here to tell you NO ONE will care as much about you & yours as YOU will.

I've questioned my farrier, my vet, my MD, my auto mechanic (although we are getting alittle dicey on that last one, since I'm not a big car person), and several times we would have been better off if we'd done it my way instead of the pros. Pros, just like the rest of us, are human...which makes them fallible.

I've worked really hard to educate myself about horse stuff, which I think is part of owning a horse. NOT that I'm more educated than the pros, but I'm not just throwing it all on their shoulders.

In the end NO ONE should know your horse better than you. NO ONE. I have jobs, responsibilities, etc. too (I think we all do), and I simply cannot imagine not recognizing the horse had 2 different shoes on, or not actually contacting the farrier after the first time when he neglected to put hind shoes on and finding out what's up.

Reminds me of the poster who once threw a hissy fit because she sent her mare out to be bred and (apparently) the mare returned with a Caslick's. The poster was outraged because she didn't know and the mare tore badly once she went into labor. Wanted to sue the VET!! Like in the 9+ months the owner never bothered to look under the tail of a bred mare?!?!? :confused: Geeze! My bred mares get the exam 1-2 times a DAY when they get into the last 3 months and I'm sure every alert horse breeder does the same.

I tell you, I probably drive my farrier crazy because at least once every visit (and we're doing some 8-14 horses each time) I say ..."did you mean to leave that little flair on the left hind?" :winkgrin: But he's been my farrier for over 10 years now and we've worked out a deal...I won't bitch too much when he is chronically 2 hrs. late or reschedules at the last minute and he doesn't bitch (too much) when I "look over his shoulder." Actually, he says he doesn't mind...that it keeps him honest. He says most people don't even notice what he's doing...

So, yes, we do pay pros, but in the end it is still our responsibility to make sure those pros are on the right track.

[Rivermeer]

Find, my horse has had radiographs, we are pursuing doing others at this time. It was thought at the time that he has had a soft tissue injury. And that just takes time to heal.

I have said this over and over, I suck, I did not notice the different shoes on the front, from 2 weeks ago ( I am not sure why I am still getting ragged on for that). I pick his feet, front to back, back to front. Whomever said I should learn about 90% angles and whatever...... my husband can attest that I can't even hang a picture straight on the wall. Maybe I should look into cosmetology as I have my hair done every 6 weeks also, I just have always trusted my hairdresser.

All I know is that I love my horse, provide him with vet care, farrier care, supplements, and what ever he needs. Plus a lot of love and treats :)!

I made a mistake in being unobservant, but i know the job was not done correctly.

[FlowerEssence]

Oh, good grief. To the OP, it's ok to vent. I agree with the folks who said the guy's gone, let it go, and if previously he's been a good shoer for you he was probably doing what was necessary to transition to the new shoer.

Shoeing threads anywhere tend to turn into brawls. I hope you get your horse's issues straightened out.

To those of you who get in a tizzy when a shoer is "rude", consider that shoers have to suffer a lot of fools. I've had horses for thirty years and have realized when I find a good shoer, they're worth GOLD. When I find a good one I stick with them, but there have been retirements, shoers have moved, etc so I've been through a few. I realize I'm being vetted as well. My current shoer is a combination of shy and skeptical, and it took him a few shoeings to realize that I'm not a know-it-all and have respect for him and his knowledge. Now he's quite personable, reliable and his knowledge spills forth.

If you've found a good one, this goes for vets and barn owners too, suck it up for your horse's sake. It's easier to deal with "rude" professionals than to strike gold again.

Rick, how do you like your coffee?? LOL. You'd be welcome to my horse's feet ANY TIME. Somehow I suspect that you're respectful when treated with respect as well!

[Rivermeer]

Flower and everyone else thanks!

It's funny when I was able to be there for his shoeings, I ALWAYS brought a cup of coffee from McDonalds, one for him and me, and always paid him on the spot. One year I gave him a bottle of vodka for an appreciation gift at Christmas. I obviously have been happy with him for the couple years, but as I stated the last couple times, work was sliding.

At the point he put the new shoe on his front, he was long, front and back. He just nailed the hind shoes on didn't rasp or file his hind feet, which at this point were "very rough from being on turnout without the shoes". It was very obvious (even to me).

I do not wish him any harm, I haven't mentioned, his name or old location as he had to travel over 60 miles to get to our barn anyways. Back in spring, barn owner who has over 20 horses, some school horses, some personal, switched to a new local farrier. Some people jumped on that bandwagon and switched. I did not, as I felt that wouldn't had been fair, since I was happy with his work.

[BuddyRoo]

Wow...several pages later....lol. how does it feel to vent? ;) Still wishing you and your horse the best. Good luck!

[Rivermeer]

Buddy Roo, I at this point, I hop you are really sincere after what I just read.

[BaroquePony]

*

[marta]

Don't sweat this stuff.
You've got some regrets, maybe you'll do some things different in the future but I think overall it sounds like you have a basis to complain.

Everyone needs to vent sometimes.

[Apocalyptic Pony]

It's often the case that until you have a horse with problem feet, you aren't going to run over their hooves and angles and shoes with a fine tooth comb. That's what happened to me. Now I do notice every crack, every ridge, I know what size and type shoes my horse wears (and he does get special shoes), what nail holes the farrier uses, how my horse's hoof balance looks when it's right, what to watch out for when it isn't right.

Good luck to the OP. Hoof issues and indeterminate lamenesses are a b*tch ;)

[SomethingDazzling]

Wow...several pages later....lol. how does it feel to vent? ;) Still wishing you and your horse the best. Good luck!

I have to agree with BuddyRoo! I think everyone has done more than just vent!

The suggestions, and take them how you want everyone, I have in this situation would be to;
#1 - pay closer attention to every detail of your horse, even if you're paying someone to care for your horse & you trust them completely - I don't mean this in a "mean" tone. (I have 1 boarder that comes out maybe twice a week, and I make care for her horse as my own). When I boarded I always checked my horses after ever service if I was unable to be there. I love & trust everyone that performs services on my horses, but I still follow up.

#2 - (and the BIGGEST thing for me) - if your horse looses a shoe, might I suggest to keep an "old" set of shoes (if nothing has changed, i.e - the type of shoe), and let your BM know where they are. That way if your farrier is pressed for time he can, as a temporary fix, put one on as to not have the hoof compromised. I have a 'not-so-worn' set of shoes (that are clearly marked which foot they came off of) I keep for my competition horse, they travel with me when I compete too. Just a suggestion...

GOODLUCK to you with "Enzo" and with your *new* farrier!!! :)

[Auventera Two]

If you've found a good one, this goes for vets and barn owners too, suck it up for your horse's sake. It's easier to deal with "rude" professionals than to strike gold again.

See, I don't agree with that at all. A PROFESSIONAL is expected to behave PROFESSIONALLY when dealing with customers. When I go to my doctor's office, or the feed store, or a hairdresser, I don't care if they provide the best products and services this side of the equator. I don't need the attitude and the unprofessional behavior. I used to use a hairdresser who did a GREAT job, but she would spend 75% of the time on the phone with her kid arguing over why he isn't doing his homework, or why he shouldn't go spend the night at the neighbor's house. I got so sick of her phone ringing 19 times during the course of one perm. I found somebody else! Good grief. I don't care how great the hair turns out, this is America, and I *can* expect good results, and professionalism at the same time, thankyouverymuch.

I have NO CLUE where this idea was birthed from that a farrier gets a free ticket to be an asshole if he's a good shoer. It's one or the other - great work, or great attitude/professionalism, but can't be both. What the fruitbat :confused:

[BuddyRoo]

Buddy Roo, I at this point, I hop you are really sincere after what I just read.

I'm not really sure what you mean...but yes of course I'm being sincere. I hope your horse gets better! It's really frustrating to deal with this sort of thing.

Good luck!

[Rivermeer]

Thanks everyone!

Heather

[Mach Two]

See, I don't agree with that at all. A PROFESSIONAL is expected to behave PROFESSIONALLY when dealing with customers.

I have NO CLUE where this idea was birthed from that a farrier gets a free ticket to be an asshole if he's a good shoer. It's one or the other - great work, or great attitude/professionalism, but can't be both. What the fruitbat :confused:

You are my hero. And thank goodness, most farriers I used over the years, have been professional, some even possessed good southern manners.:)
I had a vet I was pressed to use once who felt that his reputation gave him a lifetime of "Asshole Tickets"
I don't put up with rude business owners, or other professionals, either.

[sa11yb]

A vent, is expression; utterance; release: to give vent to one's emotions.

Nowhere did the OP post that she wanted unsolicited advice from any of you "experts" in horse care. The title even states "Vent".

Just wanted to point that out.

[matryoshka]

Yep, title specifically said vent, right from the get-go. ;) I took it as such. It seems others took it as an opportunity to vent as well. Frustrations abound.

[cyberbay]

Auventura has it right. Good manners and professional courtesy are how we get along and allow dialogue. It is stunning how rude some posters are to others on this board, with not a thought of how their post might make someone feel.

Agree that the OP did say 'vent' in the title...

[grayarabpony]

A vent, is expression; utterance; release: to give vent to one's emotions.

Nowhere did the OP post that she wanted unsolicited advice from any of you "experts" in horse care. The title even states "Vent".

Just wanted to point that out.

Yep, title specifically said vent, right from the get-go. ;) I took it as such. It seems others took it as an opportunity to vent as well. Frustrations abound.

This is true! lol

The very best farrier my horses have ever had, back when I was in college, was a super nice guy btw.

[SomethingDazzling]

Yes, the message WAS a "vent", and yes, some people were being mean, but others being helpful/sympathetic to the "vent".

[eruss]

I have NO CLUE where this idea was birthed from that a farrier gets a free ticket to be an asshole if he's a good shoer. It's one or the other - great work, or great attitude/professionalism, but can't be both. What the fruitbat :confused:


Farriers can be very professional when they are being paid for there time and work. :D

Imagine a world where a farrier could hire employees and schedule a day that would yield the most income for the business. Imagine a farrier actually charging more to shoe a horse because the feet are broken up or because the horse doesn't stand well. Imagine a farrier getting thrown around by a horse and getting up suggesting training and writing a bill for his time. Imagine a farrier charging enough to cover ALL expenses that go with him running a business and still make a good profit. Imagine a farrier charging so he could retire after 15 yrs due to the fact that farriery is very difficult on the body. Imagine a farrier charging time and a half to put a shoe on at the end of the day because the horse owner didn't want to wait a week and a half until the farrier had an opening in his book.

I don't think horse owners could afford a good farrier to be too professional. Instead you have good farriers with plenty of work who aren't very likely to take too much crap from people.

That said, I think there's plenty of good farriers with good attitudes. If you don't mix with your farrier, find one you do mix well with!

[FlowerEssence]

See, I don't agree with that at all. A PROFESSIONAL is expected to behave PROFESSIONALLY when dealing with customers. When I go to my doctor's office, or the feed store, or a hairdresser, I don't care if they provide the best products and services this side of the equator. I don't need the attitude and the unprofessional behavior. I used to use a hairdresser who did a GREAT job, but she would spend 75% of the time on the phone with her kid arguing over why he isn't doing his homework, or why he shouldn't go spend the night at the neighbor's house. I got so sick of her phone ringing 19 times during the course of one perm. I found somebody else! Good grief. I don't care how great the hair turns out, this is America, and I *can* expect good results, and professionalism at the same time, thankyouverymuch.

I have NO CLUE where this idea was birthed from that a farrier gets a free ticket to be an asshole if he's a good shoer. It's one or the other - great work, or great attitude/professionalism, but can't be both. What the fruitbat :confused:

I'm not sure how you can compare a shoer or vet for your horse with someone who cuts hair. I guess you missed the part where I said shoers/vets/etc have to deal with a lot of idiots. I understand that they might be a little cranky. I don't care. If they're good, it's worth putting up with, but I've never, ever had one continue to be crabby after more than a few visits. If you continue to have that problem, you may want to look at yourself.

Suck it up for your horses, people.