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View Full Version : tipperary vest not legal in '10?



sm1
Oct. 2, 2009, 11:05 AM
our local tack shop is telling people that the tipperary vest won't be legal for eventing next year - anyone know if this is true, or just a rumour?

Meredith Clark
Oct. 2, 2009, 11:10 AM
Legal or AMST/BETA approved?

It has been my understanding that the Tipperary Eventer (the non-solid vest) is not AMST approved and has a lower BETA rating than solid vest but the USEA doesn't require AMST or high BETA levels.

scribbles
Oct. 2, 2009, 11:12 AM
I heard that they might be changing the rules for vests and approval for vests... but it might just be a rumor...

sm1
Oct. 2, 2009, 11:16 AM
the shop is steering clients away from the Tipperarys, saying that next year the USEA is requiring AMST/BETA-approved vests.

Janet
Oct. 2, 2009, 11:30 AM
I can find nothing about it in either -

The list of approved rule changes to take effect Dec 1 09
http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/RuleBook/Changes/2010.aspx

NOR
The list of Eventing Rule Change Proposals.
http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/RuleBook/RuleProposals/PRCChater.aspx?chapter=EV

sm1
Oct. 2, 2009, 11:41 AM
excellent. thanks, janet!

Janet
Oct. 2, 2009, 12:26 PM
There still might be something going on "behind the scenes" But nothing I can find on the USEF web site.

retreadeventer
Oct. 2, 2009, 01:20 PM
Does anyone know John Nunn, to ask him?
Being the premier eventing retailer I would think he would be in on the latest, if anything is in the air.
Gee I hope IF they make any changes to this they do it to give us plenty of time to budget for new vests, and for the retailers to get stock! I know my size won't be on the shelves.

OneMoreForTheRoad
Oct. 2, 2009, 01:26 PM
If this does happen I'd be surprised, just because the vests aren't certified doesn't mean they are not safe and prevent a lot of injuries.

I'd also be mad because my very expensive custom vest would have to be put away, and I think its way to pretty to sit in my closet :(

pony grandma
Oct. 2, 2009, 03:06 PM
I'd also be mad because my very expensive custom vest would have to be put away

I have 3 Tipperaries!! :( Like when my old racing skull cap wasn't certified -- yrs ago. I had already tested it out many times!! It just wasn't new.

maudie
Oct. 2, 2009, 03:43 PM
What?! I JUST bought my tipp. vest and haven't even worn it in a competition yet! I hope this isn't true, or I am not going to be a happy camper.

CMCEventer
Oct. 2, 2009, 05:41 PM
Here's my take on it -
Right about a year ago, I went into the tack shop to window shop at new vests - just before my first horst trial in many many years. They paniced me! I was planning on wearning my older Tipperary until I could settle on something new - but they said it wasn't approved and implied it wasn't legal. I paniced and ran home to get my rule book - I think it was about 2 days before the HT!! I think there is great confusion between the words "legal and approved" - because they do not mean the same things for helmets and vests. A helmet is only legal if it is approved. Not the same for body protectors, at least not right now.

Here is the current rule:
A body protecting vest must be worn warming-up for and in the cross-country test.
Stable, team or club colors are permitted. The Federation recommends that the vest
should pass or surpass the current ASTM standard F1937 or be certified by the Safety
Equipment Institute.

So, you must wear a vest - they hope you choose to have an approved vest. Any vest is better than no vest. I have learned through other discussions on this board that the reason the Tipperaries are not "approved" is because the gaps between the padding could allow something to puncture through - not because the foam is bad or anything.

Although, with all the knee-jerk rule changes recently, this may be a faulty assumption - but I cannot imagine they would make a rule change like that without giving fair warning - and I'm quite sure Tipperary would be campaigning like crazy to stop it! Note that on the USEA convention schedule, there is a session on 2010 rule changes. If it doesn't come up on its own, maybe that is a good place to ask the question and see if anything is in the works for years to come??

WNT
Oct. 2, 2009, 09:01 PM
I've been hearing this rumor for at least two years. I even had someone come into the store I work at now tell me that her daughter's Pony Club is requiring a ASTM-approved vest. However, every time I have looked for verification I have found nothing regarding certified vests. Very irritating, as I have two Tipperary vests and the prices of Charles Owens or Aerowears make replacing them pretty out of reach.

Gry2Yng
Oct. 2, 2009, 09:11 PM
can the moderators just KILL this thread. Janet has already looked up pending rules. All this does is fuel a fire.

Muleskick
Oct. 3, 2009, 12:23 AM
The jockeys at CT this week were told their tipperariers were no longer legal and they have to change to BETA approved vests within the week.

Janet
Oct. 3, 2009, 12:26 AM
The jockeys at CT this week were told their tipperariers were no longer legal and they have to change to BETA approved vests within the week.
Where? What country?

Do you really mean "jockeys"? Or are you talking about eventers?

Muleskick
Oct. 4, 2009, 12:05 AM
Yes real jockeys at Charlestown Race Track in Charlestown, WV. And yes I know you are talking about eventers, I just thought it was interesting that they are changing the rules as well.

AmandaandTuff
Oct. 4, 2009, 10:17 AM
I really do hope it's not true, I just bought a nice used Tipp. and I love it. I can't really afford to be spending money on a vest when I only go to an event maybe twice a year.

colormecrosscountry
Oct. 4, 2009, 10:26 AM
I have a tipp. as well. At the local tack shop I go to I overheard a conversation about how they might not meet legal standards because of the way they have strings running up the sides. The employee there said that people were loosening the strings and making the vests disfunctional. Granted, she could have been wrong. But it does make sense that the spaces between the padding are making the vest unsafe too.

I'd be really upset if this rule change came about. I love my vest! And it wasn't cheap either...

nature
Oct. 4, 2009, 11:46 AM
*BETA/EN 13158 Safety Standards for Riding Vests
Developed by the British Equestrian Trade Association, this standard is applicable in the United Kingdom but not in North America.
The BETA 2000 standard is divided into 3 performance levels:

Level 3 – Protectors providing a level of protection that is considered appropriate for normal horse riding, competitions and for working with horses. Protectors to this level should:
* Prevent minor bruising that would have produced stiffness and pain.
* Reduce significant soft tissue injuries to the level of bruising.
* Prevent a limited number of rib fractures.

Level 2 – Protectors providing a lower than normal level of protection that is only considered appropriate for use in low risk situations. These do not include riding on roads or other hard surfaces, riding over jumps, riding young or excitable horses, or riding while still inexperienced.

Level 1 – Protectors providing a lower level of protection that is only considered appropriate for liscensed jockeys. Level 1 provides significantly less protection than a Level 2 garment as it is designed to meet the weight requirements of jockeys while racing. It is not intended for general horse riding.

arnika
Oct. 4, 2009, 02:47 PM
So which one does the tipperary meet? 2 or 3?

Janet
Oct. 4, 2009, 03:42 PM
So which one does the tipperary meet? 2 or 3?
Depends which one. It SHOULD say on it.

ShowMeTheGlory
Oct. 6, 2009, 10:26 AM
NOT trying to start anything here-but why would you buy something that is so important to your safety, that was not ASTM approved? Fashion? I would not dream of buying one of those things. Seriously-can someone please explain this. :)

Eventer55
Oct. 6, 2009, 10:37 AM
From what I understand the Tipperary meets all the standards except that it has vented slats instead of being solid. In case you fall on a stick or something that can puncture you. Your still protected if the horse stseps on you or if you land hard.

The Tip. vest is extremely comfortable (at least for me) and it's not worth worrying about a stick poking me. I had a friend of mine who weighs in at 80 lbs have a 16.1 horse fall o n her and she only had minor problems, her father really felt it was the vest that saved her life.

mg
Oct. 6, 2009, 10:37 AM
NOT trying to start anything here-but why would you buy something that is so important to your safety, that was not ASTM approved? Fashion? I would not dream of buying one of those things. Seriously-can someone please explain this. :)

Because the rating process for vests is different from helmets. The reason the Tipp isn't approved isn't because it can't protect you from impact, it's because of the spaces between the foam which could potentially lead to a puncture injury. I'm still trying to figure out how that could happen though...falling on a perfectly placed stake, perhaps?

Meredith Clark
Oct. 6, 2009, 11:06 AM
Because the rating process for vests is different from helmets. The reason the Tipp isn't approved isn't because it can't protect you from impact, it's because of the spaces between the foam which could potentially lead to a puncture injury. I'm still trying to figure out how that could happen though...falling on a perfectly placed stake, perhaps?

It's not just that.... working at a tack shop we were explained by the rep that it also has to do with shock absorption. If you think of each part of the Tipp Eventer a 2x4 inch (or whatever the dimensions are) can not absorb as much shock from a fall as a solid piece of foam.

That is why they came out with this one (http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-40235&ids=397092942)

I agree with a previous poster that the laces also have something to do with it. I see people with 5 inches between the sides (on each side) that's a lot of space that isn't covered if you fall. I understand that people gain weight but it's just not save.

NowThatsATrot
Oct. 6, 2009, 11:19 AM
NOT trying to start anything here-but why would you buy something that is so important to your safety, that was not ASTM approved? Fashion? I would not dream of buying one of those things. Seriously-can someone please explain this. :)

Comfort. I haven't had the chance to try actually riding in one of the "shell" type vests, but trying them on in the tack shop (even wearing them and wandering around for a while) they just feel too awkward and clumsy to me.

Obviously plenty of people can ride in them just fine, and if I had the chance to ride in one, or could afford to pick up another vest (I have an older model Tipp and a new Tipp knock-off), I would at least try it.

But competing at the lower levels, where speeds and heights are not as great, I feel that comfort and range of motion are bigger factors in my safety. I've ridden lots of green and "problem" horses over the years, and sometimes being able to position my body just so has saved me from getting injured. I know it's still entirely possible to have a bad accident at Novice, but I make the choice based on what I feel is best for me.

RAyers
Oct. 6, 2009, 12:20 PM
It's not just that.... working at a tack shop we were explained by the rep that it also has to do with shock absorption. If you think of each part of the Tipp Eventer a 2x4 inch (or whatever the dimensions are) can not absorb as much shock from a fall as a solid piece of foam...

NOT TRUE!

First, I have a Tipperary that is Beta 3 standard, just like the Charles Owens etc. According to the previous post they both must meet some form of injury reduction to attain that rating. Therefore your sales rep is misleading you.

Actually, your sales rep is misleading you from a simple physics perspective. Shock absorption is a function of surface area of the impacting components. A bullet has a HUGE amount of impact energy (small area/high speed) as compared to a car hitting a wall. Remember, energy is a square of the velocity and the same magnitude as the mass (depth times area time density). If you have a large area it does not matter the size of the panels impacted. The energy still goes to the same place and is still absorbed in the same manner.

Think of it this way, plated armor is just as good as single piece armor when you hit it with a blade. Look at one of the most effective body armor on the market, Dragon Skin. It uses small ceramic disks to stop bullets. If your sales rep reasoning was correct, then this type of armor would fail because of the high impact energy would have to be absorbed by the entire vest.

Showmetheglory,

As I stated before, in the world of vests, ASTM and BETA can not effectively test damage reduction of vests due to the simple nature of the human body. Our organs slosh around. That is why you can hit a wall, never have a scratch and still die from internal bleeding. Reliance on the idea ASTM approved WHEN APPLIED TO VESTS ONLY is false security. Even my EXO will not keep me from internal injuries. It will only keep me from getting crushed, exacerbating any internal injuries.

Reed

lcw579
Oct. 6, 2009, 03:20 PM
NOT trying to start anything here-but why would you buy something that is so important to your safety, that was not ASTM approved? Fashion? I would not dream of buying one of those things. Seriously-can someone please explain this. :)


A year ago there was a similar argument going on about how much longer the tipperary was going to be legal. At that time I was buying my daughter a new vest. I went so far as to call down to BOB to check things out. Word was same old rumor, different year. To be on the safe side we went off to a tack shop and I had her try on the CO vest that is supposed to mold to the body and is approved. She felt stiff and awkward in it. She kept it on while we were shopping sat on a saddle and "jumped" and she was uncomfortable. She felt like the vest never softened up and that it interfered with her movement. I'd rather have her in one that was comfortable and that she was happy wearing even if it was not ASTM approved. It is safer to just be worrying about your ride than worrying about what your vest is doing.

Meredith Clark
Oct. 6, 2009, 04:48 PM
NOT TRUE!

First, I have a Tipperary that is Beta 3 standard, just like the Charles Owens etc. According to the previous post they both must meet some form of injury reduction to attain that rating. Therefore your sales rep is misleading you.

Actually, your sales rep is misleading you from a simple physics perspective. Shock absorption is a function of surface area of the impacting components. A bullet has a HUGE amount of impact energy (small area/high speed) as compared to a car hitting a wall. Remember, energy is a square of the velocity and the same magnitude as the mass (depth times area time density). If you have a large area it does not matter the size of the panels impacted. The energy still goes to the same place and is still absorbed in the same manner.

Think of it this way, plated armor is just as good as single piece armor when you hit it with a blade. Look at one of the most effective body armor on the market, Dragon Skin. It uses small ceramic disks to stop bullets. If your sales rep reasoning was correct, then this type of armor would fail because of the high impact energy would have to be absorbed by the entire vest.




Reed- I will never claim to be a physicist (is that how you spell it?) although I did take Physics of Music in college and loved it!

Anyway.. that's what the rep told us so it's a shame if the companies that sell vests don't even know how and why they work. :confused:

But I do understand your explanation.. maybe you should go work for them!

I want an Exo Vest anyway!!!

Lori B
Oct. 6, 2009, 05:13 PM
I used to have a Charles Owen 'shell type' vest, and it gave me no end of trouble from how stiff it was, the way it poked the saddle in back cost me at least one fall. Given how unforgiving the fit for one of those is, I would think that you'd have to have it custom made for it to fit properly.

My tipperary is so much easier to move in and wear. I can see that there might be some kinds of injuries from which it does not protect me, but at the lower levels, I don't expect to ever jump a big brush pile, fall off, and get impaled. I really hope they don't make me buy another damned vest to wear for BN type obstacles. I wear the tipp when I'm on a horse I don't entirely trust, and don't feel like it costs me balance and mobility. You know which vest doesn't do anything to protect me? The one I refuse to wear because it's so uncomfortable.

Romany
Oct. 6, 2009, 06:00 PM
I used to have a Charles Owen 'shell type' vest, and it gave me no end of trouble from how stiff it was, the way it poked the saddle in back cost me at least one fall. Given how unforgiving the fit for one of those is, I would think that you'd have to have it custom made for it to fit properly.

My tipperary is so much easier to move in and wear. I can see that there might be some kinds of injuries from which it does not protect me, but at the lower levels, I don't expect to ever jump a big brush pile, fall off, and get impaled. I really hope they don't make me buy another damned vest to wear for BN type obstacles. I wear the tipp when I'm on a horse I don't entirely trust, and don't feel like it costs me balance and mobility. You know which vest doesn't do anything to protect me? The one I refuse to wear because it's so uncomfortable.

Did you get fitted to the rigid CO vest by a CO rep, or choose it yourself? Reason I ask is, I was fitted at Rolex by a handful of cheerful CO reps for one of their vests, and was surprised how tightly they squished me into a vest, and how particular they were about the length at the back so it WOULDN'T poke the saddle in back, as you describe.

I've had a couple of the bendy slatted Tipperary vests over the years, and I agree, they're quite comfortable, however I don't find the more rigid vests any more uncomfortable; I think it's perhaps just a matter of getting used to the different "hold" they have on your torso - uh, not unlike getting used to your first training bra. :lol:

Speedy
Oct. 6, 2009, 06:51 PM
I have the Tipperary and the solid foam CO; the Tipp is custom made and the CO was fit by a CO rep.

Regardless of whatever the standards might be, I feel much safer in the Tipperary - it fits far better than the CO does and I have greater range of motion / freedom of movement. It is also significantly lighter in the hot summer sun. I feel positively trapped by the CO, right there in my saddle, and the heat that gets trapped in it is awful. When I am riding, particularly jumping, I need to feel that I am in total control of my own body movements and balance.

Just a personal preference though, and having been under a horse that's fallen, I can say honestly that I think the outcomes there are a matter of luck and not much else. I don't think any vest would really have made a significant difference in a high impact crush situation. They are great if you hit a standard, or land on a rock, or have a glancing blow of some sort in terms of reducing bruising, etc., but that's about it so far as I can tell.

forestergirl99
Oct. 6, 2009, 07:28 PM
What?! I JUST bought my tipp. vest and haven't even worn it in a competition yet! I hope this isn't true, or I am not going to be a happy camper.

Same here!!! Not gonna be happy!! :mad:

Meredith Clark
Oct. 6, 2009, 08:19 PM
I used to have a Charles Owen 'shell type' vest, and it gave me no end of trouble from how stiff it was, the way it poked the saddle in back cost me at least one fall. Given how unforgiving the fit for one of those is, I would think that you'd have to have it custom made for it to fit properly.

.

I have a sectional vest (not the Tipp but same design) and the CO. I had to get the CO "custom made" I wear an Adult Small in the front and a Children's XL in the back b/c I'm very short with decent sized girly bits. I didn't have to pay extra for this the tack shop just mixed and matched parts. (I did later pay for custom colors)

I can't really tell the difference between my flexible vest and the CO, I guess the last thing I'm thinking about while going x-county is my vest (more like "please jump.." )

riderboy
Oct. 7, 2009, 08:01 AM
I think the EXO is the way to go but I'm not even close on the size chart and I would think something that rigid would almost have to be custom fit. Great protection though.

sisu27
Oct. 7, 2009, 12:46 PM
The jockeys at CT this week were told their tipperariers were no longer legal and they have to change to BETA approved vests within the week.

OT for the thread but can you please provide proof to verify this? I know that the jockeys and drivers up here (Ontario) are facing a mandate that requires an ASTM approved vest.....soon (they keep changing the date it will be in effect)nothing to do with BETA. As it should be btw....the "A" in ASTM is for American and the "B" in BETA is for British. Why is our own certification not good enough? Or do people just not know?

Anyways, given how this has been going here I find it VERY hard to believe that it was mandated out of the blue and enforced within a week?!?!

PS I am never surprised by what tack shop employees don't know about safety equipment....they rarely get any training. What do you expect for a min wage type job? It isn't right but it is true. The manufacturers should be taking a vested interest (ha ha :lol:) in that aspect and I don't see them doing so. Silly really.

JER
Oct. 7, 2009, 12:51 PM
The Tip. vest is extremely comfortable (at least for me) and it's not worth worrying about a stick poking me. I had a friend of mine who weighs in at 80 lbs have a 16.1 horse fall o n her and she only had minor problems, her father really felt it was the vest that saved her life.

Her father is wrong.

The physics of the fall saved her life. There is no way a Tipperary vest can protect ANY rider from the full force of a falling horse.

The only body protector that offers that kind of protection (from massive crush injuries to the torso) is the EXO.

sisu27
Oct. 7, 2009, 01:07 PM
Her father is wrong.

The physics of the fall saved her life. There is no way a Tipperary vest can protect ANY rider from the full force of a falling horse.

The only body protector that offers that kind of protection (from massive crush injuries to the torso) is the EXO.

See, this is the problem. Neither of you can say for sure either way. Maybe she would have had more severe injuries without the vest and maybe she would have been fine. Reed sort of addressed this in his post above. How do they test these things? How much weight can you give a certification? I struggle with this. Helmets seem far more simple to test.

I wear a Tipp because I hate my Rodney Powell and I am having a hard time finding anything that definitively says I would be safer in the RP.

JER
Oct. 7, 2009, 01:38 PM
The BETA Level 3 standard (highest BETA level, the UK counterpart to our ASTM #F1937-98) is explained here (http://www.beta-uk.org/Safety/ProtectStandard.asp).


Level 3 Purple label

Protectors providing a level of protection that is considered appropriate for normal horse riding, competitions and for working with horses. Protectors to this level should:

* Prevent minor bruising that would have produced stiffness and pain.
* Reduce significant soft tissue injuries to the level of bruising.
* Prevent a limited number of rib fractures.


sisu27, that ain't gonna protect you from the full weight of a falling horse -- and it makes no claims that it will.

I tried to find the ASTM specs -- they're here (http://www.astm.org/Standards/F1937.htm) but at a cost of $37, I'm not buying.