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hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:12 AM
Everyone get your Pitch Forks! Come on, I know that you have them....


The recent, and lively debate about, the esteemed Mr. Wofford's PH article and Mr. Emerson being flamed for not knowing anything about jumping (heretics!!!) got me thinking:

What is the ONE biggest myth you would like to dispel in H/J land about eventing?

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:22 AM
That all of our horses were failed hunters or that we were all failed hunter riders.....

Jealoushe
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:25 AM
most eventers don't care what other people think....!

We do it for the sport, not for other people.

groom
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:45 AM
most eventers don't care what other people think....!




...especially Hunters!

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:47 AM
I do know that, but it isn't like anyone from the H/J board is going to read this.

retreadeventer
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:02 AM
When I was a kid, I rode pony hunters, then did equitation (won Maclay, rode in Zone finals in Medal three years in a row), and amateur hunters, even dabbled in jumpers. I think at the time we just wanted to jump and the hunter shows certainly provided enough jumping. When I went to California I found, after one dressage lesson, there was a whole aspect of riding I had NO CLUE about. It fascinated me, that, after riding successfully for nearly two decades, I could not sit the trot - and knew there was a gigantic hole in my riding education. (Well, I still have trouble sitting the trot...:))

I think riding well, in any discipline, is about dedication, and thinking, and being smart, getting good instruction, processing it, reading and studying, using what will work for you at the time and then going forward. Applying things to each horse that you ride. Never say never. Never say always.

You can never know enough, you can never learn it all. Jack Le Goff told me personally he could not write a book, because he was always and still learning.

I recently watched the Ronnie Mutch equitation class at the Devon Horse Show and was very wowed by the flat work section - the kids are riding so well nowadays - it was very impressive. I noticed one girl who sat the trot beautifully and on a warmblood who was not a fabulous mover - I could tell it took a great deal of skill to ride this horse. And....she won the class. As well as the jumping, too, the riding I saw there was beautiful and the course was not at all easy - I would have put it quite on par with an intermediate level eventing stadium course.

I learned a great deal about riding over fences in my time in the hunter and equitation ring. Things that carry over today to the eventing that I am doing. At an event, remember, you ride only one round in stadium - even at a little unrecognized hunter show you can do five or six rounds, and have that many more chances at being better, better, better for your horse. I think any eventer that does not take the opportunity to do a little hunter show or some jumpers now and then is missing out on a very VERY good learning opportunity.

I think when we discuss what these luminaries are saying, we are in the process, all of us, of sorting out the information and learning. We can have a little fun and poke a little here and there without being rude or inconsiderate to each other, I think.

Jazzy Lady
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:20 AM
The eventers don't ALL live in Neon everything...

LisaB
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:34 AM
Eventers are failed <insert discipline>
Our horses are flat jumpers
We yank on their mouths
We don't do 'real' dressage
We run like hell on x-c and just point our horses at solid jumps

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:35 AM
I think when we discuss what these luminaries are saying, we are in the process, all of us, of sorting out the information and learning. We can have a little fun and poke a little here and there without being rude or inconsiderate to each other, I think.

That is a great and thougthful post, thanks.

Was going for the fun part of poking fun.

I too learned more than I can ever know in H/J land before I came to eventing and had a similar ah-ha moment.

JER
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:41 AM
What is the ONE biggest myth you would like to dispel in H/J land about eventing?

I think eventing should remain mythical and legendary to those on the outside.

(Also -- 'flamming'?)

Lisamarie8
Sep. 29, 2009, 10:28 AM
JER I think Flamming is kinda like numping and flinging. I'm not 100% certain but it's probably dirty.

OverandOnward
Sep. 29, 2009, 11:01 AM
That anyone who masters a 3'3" jumper course can go Training, today. Just ride the dressage like a flat class. Don't need a lesson, because already jump horses. Send in your entry money and just show up.

Arcadien
Sep. 29, 2009, 11:05 AM
JER I think Flamming is kinda like numping and flinging. I'm not 100% certain but it's probably dirty.

I thought the second special COTH term was "finging"...?

"FLinging" is what H/J riders think eventers do to their horses over jumps - i.e., look at that crazy event rider just flinging her horse over that log!"

TIC

BAC
Sep. 29, 2009, 11:10 AM
The recent, and lively debate about, the esteemed Mr. Wofford's PH article and Mr. Emerson being flamed for not knowing anything about jumping (heretics!!!) got me thinking: . . .


I am a hunter/jumper person but love the eventing discipline, even though I'm not particularly knowledgeable about it. I am a huge fan of both Jimmy Wofford and Denny Emerson, IMO they are the epitome of the all around horseman and I love reading anything by either of them. In fact JW's hysterical account of the World Championships in Juarez, Spain several years ago gave a super account of the pure dressage riders, at least he knows the horse's poll is supposed to be the highest point and not the crest of the neck, unlike most of them whose horses were behind the bit. :eek:

CookiePony
Sep. 29, 2009, 11:15 AM
JER I think Flamming is kinda like numping and flinging. I'm not 100% certain but it's probably dirty.

Oh boy, here we go again...

And yes, it is "finging."

EventMum
Sep. 29, 2009, 11:44 AM
I know nothing of Hunter jumping having originated from the other side of the pond. But why is it called "Hunters" when it bares no resemblance whatsoever to what we do when chasing hounds?:confused:

I have also come across the statement, "oh he's a hunter/jumper, he doesn't do dressage". I thought horses needed to learn at least basic dressage in order to jump well.

LexInVA
Sep. 29, 2009, 12:01 PM
It only bears a very minor resemblance in that it's supposed to mimic continuous riding and jumping over a distance in the Hunt field by experienced riders and horses who understand the proper cadence and such. Show Hunters is the proper term for it but Hunters is used for aesthetic reasons I suppose and to make it seem less "sissy" by giving it that closer tie to actual Hunting by word association in the brain. Not that either term really sounds "cool" in my book but it's all about relative perception.

VCT
Sep. 29, 2009, 12:09 PM
I'm always confused by what I see as misconceptions between the disciplines... and the occasional animosity.

When I was involved in H/J... we DID dressage. We did whole lessons working on dressage. It always confuses me to hear eventers bashing H/J people about their lack of dressage. Maybe the barns and trainers I was involved with were anomalies but they did work on dressage. They just called it flatwork. We did transitions, shortening/lengthening, leg yield, haunches in, shoulders in, sitting trot (which I would not consider to be "dressage" but a couple people mentioned a lack of it), flying changes, counter canter etc. Yeah, there wasn't really a desire to go beyond those somewhat more basic dressage skills, but half pass, tempi changes, passage and piaffe don't really apply in that discipline. Nor do some of them to eventing, yet anyways. :winkgrin:

Likewise, it's hard to hear the H/J people bashing eventers for their horses jumping form or the horse/riders not being "stylists". The goals are different in eventing. Safety, stamina, efficiency, bravery, versatility etc.

Madeline
Sep. 29, 2009, 12:15 PM
I know nothing of Hunter jumping having originated from the other side of the pond. But why is it called "Hunters" when it bares no resemblance whatsoever to what we do when chasing hounds?:confused:



Well, they started out wearing the same clothes, though even that's gone by the wayside now. Imagine, black field boots and "hunter"hair.

;)

KBG Eventer
Sep. 29, 2009, 01:11 PM
Is heretics used correctly in this thread? Is a heretic a crazy person? I thought Roman Catholics have used the word in the past to refer to dissenters from the church.

I'm not trying to pick on you hunter-eventer-hunter. My grammar isn't perfect either. I'm just weird! :lol:

Anyway, I would like to dispel the belief that all eventers ride insane horses and gallop crazily at jumps.

Sebastian
Sep. 29, 2009, 01:26 PM
...that all Event horses are "runaways" over the jumps. :eek:

Seb :)

lesson junkie
Sep. 29, 2009, 01:36 PM
Please don't make fun of us-the mind numbing metronomic canter is harder than it looks-and you look soo stoopid when you just can't take it any more, and are compelled by suspense to sling yourself up the horse's neck when you finally reach the jump!! So-you can see why it's so important that our hair be perfect.;)

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 29, 2009, 02:16 PM
Is heretics used correctly in this thread? Is a heretic a crazy person? I thought Roman Catholics have used the word in the past to refer to dissenters from the church.

I'm not trying to pick on you hunter-eventer-hunter. My grammar isn't perfect either. I'm just weird! :lol:

Anyway, I would like to dispel the belief that all eventers ride insane horses and gallop crazily at jumps.


A heretic in the historical sense is a person who publically or privately disagreed with established Church dogma. But in general, it can be used to mean anyone who holds a belief that is outside that of a man group’s fundamental belief system.

So, the intent was to with humor, imply that not agreeing with Denny or Wofford was a heresy.


HEH

Barnfairy
Sep. 29, 2009, 02:25 PM
The title of this thread makes me think of flambe' (http://whatscookingamerica.net/flambe.htm).

Eventer55
Sep. 29, 2009, 07:28 PM
The title of this thread makes me think of flambe' (http://whatscookingamerica.net/flambe.htm).


Yes, especially the part about handling carefully.

Meredith Clark
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:21 PM
That anyone who masters a 3'3" jumper course can go Training, today. Just ride the dressage like a flat class. Don't need a lesson, because already jump horses. Send in your entry money and just show up.

:lol:

So true! There were girls I worked with that did hunters and they always thought they could just start Eventing at Novice/Training level b/c they jumped 3foot in the hunter ring. When I tired to explain to them it might be difficult I get the token " ooooh no! I've evented before" This implying they've schooled some x-country jumps laying around their farm and ridden a dressage test once.

I've also been asked (this is not a lie) if I event b/c I can't afford a nice hunter.

The truth is I can't afford a nice anything and I love OTTBs so it's all good :):)

flea
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:33 PM
Lesson Junkie...:D

maudie
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:49 PM
Well, I'm tired of hearing Eventers bash Hunters.

Hunters are NOT all mindless drones who plod around the arena with no will. And Eventers are NOT all crazy speed demons who gallop like crazy all over the course and come 'home' sweaty and bloody.

Being a Hunter for a long time, the goal was was to get that long low action, I had a really hot pony who threw her head straight up and could gallop from a halt of you nudged her sides. Well, we won quite a few flat classes against the 18hh warmbloods. So I'd say it takes some degree of horsemanship to accomplish this.

Being a faux-eventer I can also say if you let your horse gallop around like a fiend on Cross-country you are going to get hurt unless you have a hella honest horse. I ended up riding my dressage like a hunter round and I got a 38. Mainly because I had a nice horse. It was difficult, exausting, and FUN

Basically, they are apples and oranges. Neither side can say squat. I doubt you could ever get a top eventer into a top hunter and vice versa.

riderboy
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:51 PM
most eventers don't care what other people think....!

We do it for the sport, not for other people.

That's pretty much how I feel. The goal might be to win. Or it might be to have a clean XC. The point, however, is to have fun. I don't see the other equestrian disciplines (dressage and H/J ) having NEARLY as much fun as we do. Maybe they do, I don't know.

Arcadien
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:55 PM
Yes, especially the part about handling carefully.

Had to look that one up - yep, dictionary.com came through -

"Flambe" has three definitions -
(1) served in flaming liquor, esp. brandy: Wofford flambé.
(2) dense and streaked with contrasting colors, usually green and white (okay, okay, they said "red" & "blue" but I substitued the colors worn by the venerable Woff on the cover my book)
(3) to pour liquor over and ignite.

Ouch. Not gonna put any person in an example with #3.

So, going on with this,

Which definition best applies here?

How do COTH'ers define, for example, to be "Flammed"?

Mach Two
Sep. 29, 2009, 10:09 PM
Bashing Denny? Really, how disrespectful and uninformed.
Bashing Woff? Dumb, really dumb. I don't think I'll point this out to him.

I used to take my training/prelim horse to schooling hunter shows to let him canter around some courses, and be "at a party". He placed well, because he jumped well, with square knees, and used his neck well, and could go on a slack rein when asked.
Linden Wiesman (2000 Olympic team) started out doing pony hunters on a pony she shared with her sister. She won her pony hunter classes, and she later became a winning event rider. Good riding is good riding. The sports are different, indeed. GOOD hunter rides over regular working hunter courses (at 4 foot) are a joy to watch, and the riders make it look effortless, and it's good horses and good training at work. So is a well done training or prelim level XC ride.
I was never a hunter rider per se, but I will say that the best of them (not the ammy-o posers who do not really ride, but are handed packers, and this is not slamming ammy-o's...some of them are lovely riders...but the ones who do not understand eventing are the ones who slam it) are folks who could likely foxhunt, and event if they chose to. And there are a fair number of good event riders who could also adapt to the hunters if they chose to switch.

JumpingBug
Sep. 29, 2009, 11:38 PM
"OverandOnward

That anyone who masters a 3'3" jumper course can go Training, today. Just ride the dressage like a flat class."

Have to somewhat disagree. I do both worlds and a decent 3'3 horse as long he is brave enough for water (getting in it) all the jumper classes we do have liver pool, banks (our home show has jumper doing Irish bank), graubs, and skinnies and sometimes ditches. So most have no trouble coming and running around our novice and Training courses. The only 2 question most show ring jumpers will not have experienced is the drop into water and some of the terrain issues. I know several jumper riders who have no trouble coming over to the eventing side for a show or 2 a year and do quite well at the novice and training levels. And over and onward many of these horses were bred and started in europe so not only are they bred to be nice on the flat many are very very well schooled on the flat as some double in the medals or just plain well trained.

BN/N and training are all suppose to be a stepping stone for horses and by their very nature should be very do-able for most able horses and GASP jumper riders.

Sorry but just do not agree with your post!

JumpingBug
Sep. 29, 2009, 11:42 PM
I would like to gently smack the next dressage, H/J, polo, trail rider, any western discipline rider who calls me about a horse for sale as it is a little hot or a little nuts or a little to much for the lady who owns it and they think it would really like to gallop outside all the time! :-) No less than 1-2 times a month I have someone wanting to sell me or give me a nut job as they think we want to put our lives in the hands of a nut job horse over obstacles that could kill us! :confused:

sch1star
Sep. 30, 2009, 08:21 AM
JumpingBug said:

No less than 1-2 times a month I have someone wanting to sell me or give me a nut job

*Coffee on screen*

No flamm intended, mind you :D

Just Walter
Sep. 30, 2009, 09:23 AM
Jumping Bud....LOL....second screen is wet!!! Snicker!

quietann
Sep. 30, 2009, 11:34 AM
third coffee on screen!

And a brief time-out to consider how many of those same horses are presented as barrel racing/games or endurance prospects "because they love to go."