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RegentLion
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:21 PM
Help settle a dispute between DH and I...

How much would you expect to pay for a horse that has successfully completed a BN or N events (including ditches/water) and has the potential to go Training, but probably isn't a Prelim horse. So a basic lower level horse... sound and under 15 years old.

I did try to do the dreamhorse search but that is so hard--you get everything possible out there, and many of the ad texts don't state if the horse has actually DONE eventing... even if this is listed as a skill.

Hubby thinks he'd rather pay "a little more" for a confirmed lower level horse than pay "less" for a greenie. I'm thinking his "little more" is more than he's expecting to pay.

BUT I told him I'd check it out. :D

luise
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:31 PM
For a sound, under 15 yr old, uncomplicated novice could go training horse, I'd say $15K. I bought a horse this past spring, and I found that pretty much everything cheaper had an issue: previous injury that I wasn't willing to take on (suspensory, fracture, etc), not an easy ride, my idea of a bad record (i.e. multiple uncompleted events, XC stops, etc), short record (maybe has done one 3 events and/or unrecognized events you can't find the results of), etc. I found though the two biggest things that affected price were rideability and soudness/previous injuries though. For example, I found a training level horse for under $10K. Well, turns out he wasn't an easy ride. Found another novice/training horse for I think $8K. Turned out he had torn part of his lower suspensory (had since been rehabbed, but hadn't competed). Now if you have a farm and the space to retire a horse who might have a higher chance of breaking, I'd say go for it. I don't though, so I pass on those kinds of horses. Now if the rider is quite talented and can deal with a wide variety of horses, obviously then rideability might not be a huge issue.

EventerAJ
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:40 PM
In addition to everything Luise mentioned, there is also the issue of "location." For example, horses in big eventing land (VA) are often more expensive than elsewhere.

Also, the quality or competitiveness of the horse comes into play. The professional novice horse consistently scoring in the 20s in dressage, finishing top 3, is going to be significantly more than the steady guy earning 37s.

I would expect a "made" N/T horse to be around $7,000-$20,000, varying according to age, soundness, ease of ride, and dressage quality. And location... "competitive" in WI can be a lot different than "competitive" in VA.

wsmoak
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:43 PM
Ballpark... I'd expect to part with at least $10k for what you're describing. More depending on age, how close it is to competing at Training, etc.

luise
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:55 PM
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention location. I am in New England, but I looked up and down the East coast--Maine to Florida. No idea what prices are out West, but I suspect that if it's a really good, packer type horse, people know what they have and can get for it.

Thames Pirate
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:24 AM
For a sound, under 15 yr old, uncomplicated novice could go training horse, I'd say $15K. I bought a horse this past spring, and I found that pretty much everything cheaper had an issue: previous injury that I wasn't willing to take on (suspensory, fracture, etc), not an easy ride, my idea of a bad record (i.e. multiple uncompleted events, XC stops, etc), short record (maybe has done one 3 events and/or unrecognized events you can't find the results of), etc. I found though the two biggest things that affected price were rideability and soudness/previous injuries though. For example, I found a training level horse for under $10K. Well, turns out he wasn't an easy ride. Found another novice/training horse for I think $8K. Turned out he had torn part of his lower suspensory (had since been rehabbed, but hadn't competed). Now if you have a farm and the space to retire a horse who might have a higher chance of breaking, I'd say go for it. I don't though, so I pass on those kinds of horses. Now if the rider is quite talented and can deal with a wide variety of horses, obviously then rideability might not be a huge issue.

I was wondering if you take into account the rider. My mare, for example, had 2 Training starts with the previous owner with a competitive dressage and clean XC/SJ. I, however, suffer from show nerves. Her dressage record with me is spotty--sometimes we stink, other times we're competitive. It's not the horse. I get the same nerves SJ, so we've had some rails, though we've also jumped cleanly. We did have a stop XC last year, but it was footing related--the record wouldn't show that. We went through a spell where my confidence shattered badly, and we regressed (followed by 2 shows with minor bumps that didn't manifest until XC, so we retired). Thus I'd say we have a pretty spotty show record at best, but none of it is the fault of the horse. She's a complete packer XC when given even a halfway kinda barely decent ride, and with the right ride is every bit capable of being competitive in dressage/SJ.

Also, what health issues are dealbreakers? You mentioned suspensory, but what about muscle tears, colic surgery, or some other condition that requires consideration but not necessarily management? What about one that DOES require management? Would the fact that the horse has competed/is competing post-injury/illness factor in?

RegentLion
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:28 AM
Thanks guys, this has been really helpful... About what I thought. Hubby was thinking 5-10k for one of these types.

We're located in Michigan and would be competing in the Michigan/Wisconsin areas. Competitive would be NICE but not NECESSARY. Just want to go out and have fun and be SAFE. Rideability is an issue but if I get my confidence/assertiveness organized it becomes less of one.

Soundness is a MUST. Routine maintenence is fine especially in the older horse. So I guess there's sort of a fine line there.

Lori B
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:38 AM
You have a PM. :-)

jn4jenny
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:43 AM
Thanks guys, this has been really helpful... About what I thought. Hubby was thinking 5-10k for one of these types.

We're located in Michigan and would be competing in the Michigan/Wisconsin areas. Competitive would be NICE but not NECESSARY. Just want to go out and have fun and be SAFE. Rideability is an issue but if I get my confidence/assertiveness organized it becomes less of one.

Soundness is a MUST. Routine maintenence is fine especially in the older horse. So I guess there's sort of a fine line there.

I was offered $12-15K for mine. In Michigan. By two different parties. Trainer and I agreed that I'd be a fool to part with such a horse, and he's not for sale at any price.

"Safe" and "fun" are the parts that make the difference. It's easy enough to find a horse that can get around Novice and has done it lots of times. Willing, not a jerk, and bold is much tougher.

OTOH, mine is 8 years old, sound, and he has a good enough step in the dressage to get you in the ribbons (and is bold and straightforward on XC). I'd imagine that in Michigan, for something with older and/or slightly less competitive, you could pay far less. Just this past spring, there was a Training level packer, 16.3hh, 17 years old, had packed his rider around her Pony Club C-3 and was safe safe safe. Could bring home ribbons at Novice, did fine at Training and was safe at that level but wasn't quite as competitive at Training. Needed supplements to keep competing but was completely sound at Novice with supplements. He went for $5000.

GotSpots
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:53 AM
15-20K is not at all unreasonable for that horse, and I think the price can go substantially up from that, depending on how old, how fancy, how much it can take a joke. The Training packer that will win with Joe Amateur and be a pretty straightforward ride can be alot more expensive than that, particularly if it's one that will win the dressage pretty consistently and it's in Virginia/Pennsylvania, and/or it has some successful preliminary mileage. We sold one last year that would definitely not go Preliminary level, but who was sweet, safe, and sound for 25K - and it was nothing fancy, just honest and good hearted. A kind horse is worth a good deal, in my book.

Of course, there is always that diamond in the rough, and I've certainly found amazing horses for far less than that, but it took time, persistence, and a good program to confirm them as amateur rides (and even then, they might be competitive but not always in the ribbons, or they had quirks of some sort). I'm all about finding the gem out in the field (and have done it), but a little scope and a little experience are worth their weight in gold with an amateur ride.

acking01
Sep. 28, 2009, 10:44 AM
Well, I have a friend who is trying to sell her confirmed Novice packer (always top two) that matches all of the OP's criteria and is cheaper.... and he's been up for a year with only a couple of bites. Go figure.


**hope that is not too much info, as this is NOT my horse

pday09
Sep. 28, 2009, 10:47 AM
I have exactly what you're describing, she's the love of my life! I got her for 15k pre-recession, now in my area you can get a lot for your money.

Kairoshorses
Sep. 28, 2009, 11:04 AM
I agree with everyone. If you want a horse who's done P or T, and is a N "packer", you will pay more. If it's a N "packer" with no experience at T or P (but the potential to do it), then you're looking at 10-20k.

I looked at what I thought was the PERFECT horse in the former category, but he didn't vet...and that's what you'll be looking at if the horse is 15+. In my case, we have very hard ground where I live (DRY and hard), and a horse with hoof issues isn't going to cut it here. BUT I know the horse I looked at continues to be successful where he's located (out east). Broke my heart, but worked out ok at the end--since I got his clone (who was only 11) who vetted and had the experience (and the personality). But, given his experience and his age, he was a bit more expensive than the N packer who hasn't done T or P.

I looked for a long time, and had someone working with me to say "no, he's not the one" (else I would've had several non-vetted horses in my barn). They're out there--Good luck!

eventrider
Sep. 28, 2009, 11:15 AM
10-20k depending on the horse and how fancy. etc.

RegentLion
Sep. 28, 2009, 11:18 AM
This is what I was thinking... I'm short so could do the pony sized horses... and have no real dreams of Training... but don't want to be taking a horse around a novice course if it can't comfortably school a few training questions. I don't like to be working around an XC course with the horse doing it at the absolute top of its ability. Doesn't make me feel like the horse has enough scope to get out of a bad situation!

I am a decent enough rider that I could get a more difficult horse around, but that just isn't FUN for me. And at this point in my life, I don't want to dread my rides or have every ride a struggle.

I know that I would be happy taking a sensible youngster that is doing w/t/c and small courses and just doing a lot of work and schooling for a year or so and then start out at BN.

My DH feels that it is too much of a gamble to do that, becuase once you get out in the competition, the horse may not do the ditches/water/whatever. He does have a bad taste in his mouth from the last event horse I had who simply WOULD NOT do a water without a good long look first. Longer than you can give in an event.

DH isn't a gambling man and says he'd be willing to pay more for less gamble. I'm still loving the idea of a "cheap" greenie and then plonking around on it until it was ready to go.

flbay
Sep. 28, 2009, 11:49 AM
Reading your last post, I would let hubby have his way on this one. You will likely enjoy the daily ride on the experienced horse more and he will have won the dispute (a win/win for everyone)!

RegentLion
Sep. 28, 2009, 11:58 AM
Reading your last post, I would let hubby have his way on this one. You will likely enjoy the daily ride on the experienced horse more and he will have won the dispute (a win/win for everyone)!

Oh believe me, I'm happy to "let him win" this one!!!:lol: I think, though, that he's in for a shocking surprise when his $$ doesn't get him as far as he thinks it will... there have been a few gorgeous horses that I've seen for about 15k and he thinks that the people selling them are "crazy to think they'll get that much for the horse." WHERE IS THE "sigh" EMOTICON?!?!

I love my DH a lot but he really has very little experience in buying "made" horses in this discipline. For that matter, neither do I. I've always done the green bean thing until now. What a change. :eek:

jn4jenny
Sep. 28, 2009, 01:21 PM
DH isn't a gambling man and says he'd be willing to pay more for less gamble. I'm still loving the idea of a "cheap" greenie and then plonking around on it until it was ready to go.

In your position, where the are practically no trainers nearby to consult on a weekly or bi-monthly basis? I wouldn't touch the "cheap greenie" plan with a ten foot pole. What will you do when/if that plan doesn't work out for whatever reason? You'll be stuck with a half-trained horse in a market that doesn't like project horses.

If I were you, I'd split the difference. Go find a horse who's run a couple BN's and has proven itself amateur friendly and ditch/bank/water friendly, but is not confirmed at Novice. Something like this--I'm pretty sure this horse is long sold, but it's just an example http://www.pheventing.com/SaleHorses.html Or, look at Cooper on this page (again, I bet he's long sold but it's just an example http://www.mapleshadefarm.net/myweb/msfsalehorses.htm).

It fits hubby's budgets, it leaves a reasonable but not insurmountable list of to-do's for your training plan, and if all else fails you can send it off to a trainer and get it confirmed at Novice (probably pretty cheaply since the difference between BN and N is not huge, and a pro trainer could make the raise in a month or two).

wsmoak
Sep. 28, 2009, 01:32 PM
Reading your last post, I would let hubby have his way on this one. You will likely enjoy the daily ride on the experienced horse more and he will have won the dispute (a win/win for everyone)!

He can have his way, but he's going to have to double his budget! (She said he was thinking $5-10k for this, and in reality it's probably going to be $10-20k.)

--
Wendy

bornfreenowexpensive
Sep. 28, 2009, 02:33 PM
I think you could find a nice started horse who has gone BN or even N....for less than 10K in this market. There are several people in my area who have those types for sale. I wouldn't say they are packers...and most will be OTTB (which isn't a bad thing in my book)...but you will know that they will do ditches, water and banks. Now if you want a "packer"...then no, those will cost a bit more.

I'd check out some of the horses Jlee has....and put feelers out. I just picked up a new prospect...went for greener than you are looking for....but there was a TON out there to choose from. I had more luck with word of mouth than looking at ads.

Shrunk "N" Da Wash
Sep. 28, 2009, 04:06 PM
Help settle a dispute between DH and I...

How much would you expect to pay for a horse that has successfully completed a BN or N events (including ditches/water) and has the potential to go Training, but probably isn't a Prelim horse. So a basic lower level horse... sound and under 15 years old.

I did try to do the dreamhorse search but that is so hard--you get everything possible out there, and many of the ad texts don't state if the horse has actually DONE eventing... even if this is listed as a skill.

Hubby thinks he'd rather pay "a little more" for a confirmed lower level horse than pay "less" for a greenie. I'm thinking his "little more" is more than he's expecting to pay.

BUT I told him I'd check it out. :D

8k-12k canadian

luise
Sep. 28, 2009, 05:49 PM
I was wondering if you take into account the rider. My mare, for example, had 2 Training starts with the previous owner with a competitive dressage and clean XC/SJ. I, however, suffer from show nerves. Her dressage record with me is spotty--sometimes we stink, other times we're competitive. It's not the horse. I get the same nerves SJ, so we've had some rails, though we've also jumped cleanly. We did have a stop XC last year, but it was footing related--the record wouldn't show that. We went through a spell where my confidence shattered badly, and we regressed (followed by 2 shows with minor bumps that didn't manifest until XC, so we retired). Thus I'd say we have a pretty spotty show record at best, but none of it is the fault of the horse. She's a complete packer XC when given even a halfway kinda barely decent ride, and with the right ride is every bit capable of being competitive in dressage/SJ.

Also, what health issues are dealbreakers? You mentioned suspensory, but what about muscle tears, colic surgery, or some other condition that requires consideration but not necessarily management? What about one that DOES require management? Would the fact that the horse has competed/is competing post-injury/illness factor in?

Certainly the rider is also taken into consideration. An occasional stop on XC wouldn't scare me, but a stop or 2 at every event would!
Everyone is going to have a different set of dealbreakers. It all depends on what you are willing to manage, and what risks you are willing to take. Now in my case I board, and don't have a nice big farm to retire a horse to if something were to happen. So I try to minimize my risk. If I had my own farm, then certain previous injuries and stuff I might be willing to look at. But for the time being my health dealbreakers are:
-previous colic surgery (would never be able to get him insured for colic, and certainly the horse is now at higher risk)
-navicular changes that were found because the course was lame, not just incidental findings
-prevous suspensory injuries
-kissing spine (I'm not going to go there right now if some recall my previous posts)
-bucking/rearing/bolting/excessive spooking
-blindness
I'm sure there are more that I'm forgetting. Things like cribbing and weaving don't bother me, but for others they are deal breakers.