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EquitationRider
Sep. 27, 2009, 12:04 PM
I'm a hunter/jumper rider but I need some help and was wondering I'd you guys could help me.

A couple months ago I would not be asking this! A couple months ago I had my changes perfectly, but somehow I have lost them. My horse knows them perfectly and I can usually do them cutting across the diagonal, on the center line, on the quarter line, any straight line really! I could even do 2 changes on the straight line. (Yay medal tests!) But it seems like now I have more trouble than ever and sometimes I just can't do it.

Help me please!

SillyHorse
Sep. 27, 2009, 01:18 PM
I think you'll be better off asking this in the hunter/jumper forum. Dressage changes and hunter changes are different animals.

EquitationRider
Sep. 27, 2009, 01:20 PM
I think you'll be better off asking this in the hunter/jumper forum. Dressage changes and hunter changes are different animals.

My horse has done a lot of dressage before coming to the hunter/jumpers.
I was just kind of wanting a different point of veiw.

slc2
Sep. 27, 2009, 04:48 PM
But in the hunters, he has to do a hunter change. There just isn't a lot of similiarity in what a hunter trainer would tell you to do, and how the cahnge would look, vs what a dressage trainer would have you do and how it would turn out. Really is a lot better to go to a hunter trainer.

meupatdoes
Sep. 27, 2009, 05:47 PM
1. Practice many canter/walk/canter transitions.
Work on staying very STRAIGHT.
Get the transition as light and with as little movement from yourself as possible.

2. When asking for the change, work on staying very STRAIGHT. Many horses like to dive into the new lead. Legyielding away from the soon-to-be-new leading leg for two strides, keeping the horse very straight in the body during the legyield, can help set that up before asking for the change.

3. Some exercises-
a.) Counter canter up quarterline; before turn legyield out two strides and then ask for change before turn.

b.) True canter around shortside.
Upon hitting first letter on long side, walk.
Leg yield to quarter line.
Counter canter from quarterline back to longside you came from.
Walk upon hitting long side.
New lead.
Eventually eliminate the walk on the long side.

c.) true canter up longside.
At E/B, 10 m half circle, ride toward just above corner.
Leg yield the last bit.
Upon hitting longside, walk.
New lead.
Eventually eliminate the walk.



So, everyone, was this hunter or dressage advice I just gave?
a.) was taught to me by one type of trainer (h/j or dressage), b.) by the other type.

If the training is so different surely you will be able to suss out which exercise was done in which discipline, no?

Hampton Bay
Sep. 27, 2009, 05:52 PM
OK, so your horse did his changes just fine a couple months ago, and now he doesn't. You have to figure out what changed.

Have you had a trainer ride him to try for the changes to eliminate the possibility that YOU could be doing something wrong? I would doubt this since you had him doign them just fine before, but it's worth a shot.

Have you changed any of his tack so maybe he is less comfortable now?

Have you had a vet or chiro look at him to determine if there is a physical reason for this issue?

Is he having trouble with anything else you have been asking of him?

goeslikestink
Sep. 27, 2009, 06:24 PM
I think you'll be better off asking this in the hunter/jumper forum. Dressage changes and hunter changes are different animals.

why- i always start min of with small jump or cavaletti as i was tuaght by a top 3day eventer

so if the horse is a novice horse he would more than likely favour a leading leg when he canters as most horses are one sided and prefer to canter with one leg leading than the other, the objective in training as its is more advanced work for the novice horse
is to encourage him to lead off with either leg , whichever you decide, its the same wen learning to jump you will find the horse will probably favour one leg on which to land and take off on

you could be on the right leg leading into a fence and land onto the near forleg as hes changed in mid air obviously it better for the horse to land and take off on the same leg
as when teaching to jump it easier to learn strides and distances and how or when to take off land into pertiuclar jumps so if the horse does favour one leg to the other then you must consider being able to make the flying change

of all the movements the flying change must never be done to early with a horse until hes happy and can do leg yeilds and schoulder ins sucessfully

to exercise the flying change the horse must be supple and athletic willing to reach immedaitey to every one of your aids some horses find the movement much easier than others in some they will do it of there own accord, on changing direction in the canter but will be non consistence as in rough its better for the horse to be instructed when to change legs and for him to do as and when you ask him and not when he thinks it can be done

for exsample th poster above says she sometimes does it and has lost her way abit and now has trouble this might be becuase the horse is doing it rather than the poster asking for him to it so its horse leading the rider when in truth it should be the other way around

so how to-- start him off with a small jumping exercise set up a small rail or cavaletti
no higher than 2ft and put a pole dwon on the ground on the landing side set at an angle to the rial appproach the jump in the near foreleg leading canter cooming in at a slight incline
from left to right when you do your jump you weill find 9timesout of 10 that the angle the pole on the ground is has made the horse change to off foreleg leading canter
would be better if pracricing at home to have a helper move the ground pole for you to change the angle of the pole and make a right hand cricle to the approach the jump

again a slight angle this time fro the right to left jumps the rail so that canters off the jump with his near foreleg leading again
for youngsters and in expreinced horses its better to not to take the risk of losing the rythem and balance by trying to do the flying change better to bring the horse back to trot before changing the canter leading leg

this teaching him the nice way of how to change his legs whilse having a bit of fun whilse jumping over poles but if one want to refine the flying change in canter paces
you need the canter to walk and walk to canter transition
make a large figure of eight and change up from walk to canter and at the centre of the 8 execute the transition for walk allow several paces of walk before you ask to change back up agian
bring the horse back to walk at centeral position gradually cut down on the number of walking paces between the changes until you can go to canter ,walk, canter 1 or 2 strides between different leading legs

now you can start to give the horse the signal to change to his leading leg
this signal is made by changing the bend when on the foreleg is the leading leg your bend is to the right so you feel the left rein and keep the right rein in support .

you must of course follow the change of the bend and keep your left leg on the girth and your right leg back.as the foreleg leaves the ground at the end of a seqquence of right canter nudge with your right leg to start the new sequence in the near foreleg leading

try not to change your weight too much as this will unbalance the horse and may make him become disunited it is a matter of timming in canter at the end of each sequence there is a period of suspension when no feet are on the ground at all. this is the moment to make the signal to restart the other leg
flying changes are not always easy to master they require a willing horse or pony and a sensitive rider who is able to feel what the horse is doing underneath them they also require patience and weeks of painstaking work as the hrose learns to trust the rider and to understand the signals of direction being given

dont ever forget for the other bend as you take up the left rein and bring your the right leg back to end a right canter seqeunce the aids you give need to be given clearly and and to be balanced on each side taking up the left rein must be with light contact on the right rein nudging with right leg nust be balanced with firm contact on the girth with the left leg and so on etc add the requirement to apply the aids at the precise moment of susspension and and then you have the combination of the flying change

EquitationRider
Sep. 27, 2009, 07:15 PM
Hampton Bay- My horse does them just fine with my trainor and with a teenager who I let ride and show him. (shes older and a very good rider!) I know it is something I am doing! He has acually been doing great in every other area, his flat work is a hundred times better (besides if I ask him to do a lead change) and his jumping is great as well. Its just the changes that I have trouble with, not him.

meupatdoes- Thank you so much! That is really helpful an I'm definitly going to try those exercises! And yes with me he does like to dive in on the change. Another one of his tricks is speeding up and then diving! I don't send him forward at all but he speeds up and dives in!

Keep the advice coming! I really appriciate it!

goeslikestink
Sep. 27, 2009, 07:24 PM
Hampton Bay- My horse does them just fine with my trainor and with a teenager who I let ride and show him. (shes older and a very good rider!) I know it is something I am doing! He has acually been doing great in every other area, his flat work is a hundred times better (besides if I ask him to do a lead change) and his jumping is great as well. Its just the changes that I have trouble with, not him.

meupatdoes- Thank you so much! That is really helpful an I'm definitly going to try those exercises! And yes with me he does like to dive in on the change. Another one of his tricks is speeding up and then diving! I don't send him forward at all but he speeds up and dives in!

Keep the advice coming! I really appriciate it!

thats becuase hes doing the flying change and your not asking him did you not read what i said some horses can do it auto matically or like doing it but its rough as in not even or balanced so the horse is doing it whereby hes taking you so this is where the dive as you call it is comming from if you ask said horse it would be more even and more in rythem and balance so in harmony with the horse and more fluent

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Sep. 28, 2009, 01:22 PM
You're probably overthinking it now. As my trainer says: "The change is just another canter stride!" : )

magnolia73
Sep. 28, 2009, 02:35 PM
Have your trainer talk you through the change. My horse was getting them with everyone but me. Turns out, I was asking wrong. You may be making an error like I was. It was horribly confusing for whatever reason. I was using inside rein, inside rein, inside seat. Her aid is step out step out outside leg. I was asking step out...step out.... step out...

EquitationRider
Sep. 28, 2009, 04:39 PM
My horse is trained to do a lead change by leg yielding off my inside leg for a couple steps then new inside leg slightly back.

I understand the steps and such I just can't execute it!

SillyHorse
Sep. 28, 2009, 06:36 PM
New *inside* leg slightly back? :confused:

EquitationRider
Sep. 28, 2009, 07:25 PM
New *inside* leg slightly back? :confused:

I meant outside! Woops
Old inside (new outside) leg slightly back!

Hampton Bay
Sep. 28, 2009, 08:26 PM
Are you switching the "direction" of your seat? You know how your seat swings toward one direction in the canter stride? You need to switch that when you move your leg.

EquitationRider
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:06 PM
Are you switching the "direction" of your seat? You know how your seat swings toward one direction in the canter stride? You need to switch that when you move your leg.

No I am not!! Haha

slc2
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:11 PM
I don't agree with that. I just let my seat follow the horse and try to not make a big move, I don't try to move it.

Hampton Bay
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:13 PM
I don't agree with that. I just let my seat follow the horse and try to not make a big move, I don't try to move it.

Some of us have to be told how to follow the movement though. What seems natural to some is not to others.

goeslikestink
Sep. 28, 2009, 10:43 PM
try not to change your weight too much as this will unbalance the horse and may make him become disunited it is a matter of timming in canter at the end of each sequence there is a period of suspension when no feet are on the ground at all.

its timmming -- rather than change your weight

Peggy
Sep. 29, 2009, 01:07 AM
Good advice from meupatdoes

And, WRT the changes being different animals in different disciplines, try telling that to my old horse Cool. We did the changes "early" with the help of a dressage trainer, used them in HJ on course, and then eventually had him doing two-tempis when I switched over to dressage. Repeated with a second horse tho that one switched over to hunter/eq when he was working 4th level (yes, he is one of the more schooled horses in the barn). A correctly-executed "hunter" change is not, IMHO, fundamentally different from a correctly-executed dressage "change" except for the level of collection.

meupatdoes
Sep. 29, 2009, 01:20 AM
Good advice from meupatdoes

And, WRT the changes being different animals in different disciplines, try telling that to my old horse Cool. We did the changes "early" with the help of a dressage trainer, used them in HJ on course, and then eventually had him doing two-tempis when I switched over to dressage. Repeated with a second horse tho that one switched over to hunter/eq when he was working 4th level (yes, he is one of the more schooled horses in the barn). A correctly-executed "hunter" change is not, IMHO, fundamentally different from a correctly-executed dressage "change" except for the level of collection.

MY GOD.

Someone talking sense on the COTH boards.

Arathita
Sep. 30, 2009, 01:00 AM
I don't agree with that. I just let my seat follow the horse and try to not make a big move, I don't try to move it.

The seat dictates the change of leg and is supported by the legs and reins. The seat dictates most movements in dressage. and the aids support the seat.

Agree, Peggy.

Coppers mom
Sep. 30, 2009, 02:27 AM
What are you doing with your upper body? My horse and I went through a little phase like this. We were doing changes every two strides, but then all of a sudden he started getting all cranky with me and wouldn't even do a change across the diagonal. It turns out I was getting overly excited and flopping my upper body around in anticipation for the change. As soon as I fixed that, the changes started coming again.

slc2
Sep. 30, 2009, 05:58 AM
Arathita, yes, the seat aids do many things, but the seat also has to not unbalance the horse with a shift of the rider's position, or the change will be 'little, late and crooked'. I spent a long time watching people leap out of the saddle and twist in the air to 'use their seat' and seeing poor quality changes result or the horse changing in spite of the rider, or not even being able to do the change - things have changed a lot since the bad old days of the 'seat signal' for the change...now it has gotten to a very different point. Moving the seat, putting a big bend in the horse's neck 'to ask for the change', i think really, any big move, results in problems with the change. I think it is a mistake and it is something I try not to do. In her book, Kyra Kyrkland talks about getting the change while sitting still and giving just a little nudge of the heel. Then the seat just follows the very slight change in the horse's back in the moment of the change. Not always easy for an ammy as it takes a lot of strength and balance, but the quality of the change is much, much better.

EquitationRider
Sep. 30, 2009, 08:07 AM
What are you doing with your upper body? My horse and I went through a little phase like this. We were doing changes every two strides, but then all of a sudden he started getting all cranky with me and wouldn't even do a change across the diagonal. It turns out I was getting overly excited and flopping my upper body around in anticipation for the change. As soon as I fixed that, the changes started coming again.

That's a good point because I sometimes wrench my body when I want the change to happen, which of course makes him build up speed. And I do lead changes better without stirrups and I think it's because I can't do any dramatic moves with my body.