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horsegirltv
Sep. 27, 2009, 06:30 AM
I am certain this will create quite the hullabaloo around the ole water cooler but I just have to post it.

I've been training with Anky in Erp for one week now (several months to follow) but I have NOT ONE SINGLE TIME been asked to ride in the manner that many people find so controversial.

My horse has gone better in one week of lessons with Anky simply learning the infant stages of the basics of self carriage and proper use of my aids than I have with years of other training.

No I'm not going to elaborate more on my training (read my blog posts for some occasional notes) but I just had to post this as a first hand experience so people would know (at least from my experience) riding with Anky is not about what people condemn them and the Dutch for.

The riding and training here is amazing. The Dutch are incredibly welcoming. It's a wonderful time all around! :)

Sincerely,

slc2
Sep. 27, 2009, 07:11 AM
What a great experience!! Will check out your blog.

nhwr
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:25 AM
I rode with someone for a number of months who had trained with Anky for about a year. My horse never went better :yes:

Coreene
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:43 AM
Glad you've tried patat met mayo, now you'll have to have a few bitterballen met een pilsje. ;) And the shopping, of course, always the shopping.

horsegirltv
Sep. 27, 2009, 11:03 AM
wow! i'm sooooooo happy to see positive responses. i felt like i was going out on a limb to share my success in the short term with such a controversial trainer. this has made my day! thanks for the kind replies!!!!

Thylacine
Sep. 27, 2009, 11:20 AM
to me it would have been stranger if you and your horse had been started in rollkur the very first week.

they are pro's. and pro's check the lay of the land before they 'build a dam'. and if you're in the equestrian media they will be positive to make sure you come away with nothing but good impressions (they've a lot of fences to mend) ;)

but at the same time, someone who isn't open to rollkur isn't going to go to their stables to train in the first place.

i hope you and your horse have a safe time, and you learn what you want to learn.

horsegirltv
Sep. 27, 2009, 11:42 AM
and if you're in the equestrian media they will be positive to make sure you come away with nothing but good impressions (they've a lot of fences to mend) ;)


thanks for the reply. i have several friends over the last 4 years who have also trained with anky in erp who are not of the "equestrian media" and had similar experiences to mine thus far so i wouldn't go as far to say and i'm getting different treatment because i produce a horse series.

i would venture to say that anky is one person who certainly honestly speaks her mind on topics whether you agree with her opinion or not. ;-)

thanks again for the reply! it's been great thus far but i have so much to learn!

nhwr
Sep. 27, 2009, 01:12 PM
(they've a lot of fences to mend) ;)
Yeah, there is all that success to apologize for :rolleyes:

Coreene
Sep. 27, 2009, 01:22 PM
Thylacine, please do elucidate on these fences you deem mendworthy. nhwr and I both love a good Sunday Snork.

HollysHobbies
Sep. 27, 2009, 01:55 PM
Sounds like an awesome opportunity to train with a world-champion.

I'll check out your blog too! I'd love to hear what you're working on (training-wise) and the tips Anky gives!

Good luck! Eat some yummy European chocolate and drink some espresso for me (gosh I miss french food!!).

Carol O
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:51 PM
How wonderful to have your opportunity! Enjoy the ride!

I just visited your blog, and it is clear you are enjoying the ride! You go, girl!

Mardi
Sep. 28, 2009, 02:16 AM
I've been training with Anky in Erp for one week now (several months to follow) but I have NOT ONE SINGLE TIME been asked to ride in the manner that many people find so controversial.



If you ARE asked to ride "in the manner that many people find so controversial",
will you ?

Thylacine
Sep. 28, 2009, 04:04 AM
Thylacine, please do elucidate on these fences you deem mendworthy. nhwr and I both love a good Sunday Snork.



goodness! :eek:

all those posts [17,plus] on a dressage forum, yet seemingly unaware of the controversy throughout the worlds equestrian media regarding rollkur ? golly.

since this is not my thread and I have no wish to turn TVgirls thread into a trainwreck, i shall leave it up to both to do their own research.

or perhaps go find your sunday "snork" elsewhere.

I only bite when hungry.

slc2
Sep. 28, 2009, 08:20 AM
"not aware of the controversy around the world"

Actually, it has been beaten to death here for years, and the people you're accusing of not being aware, are very, very aware and have discussed it here for quite a few years. Most internet debates are just the 'anti' people screaming and telling everyone who doesn't agree that they're wrong and horse abusers and 1 cm behind vertical is abuse...but often the in favor of arguments are pretty silly too.:lol:

Some say there is no controversy, some say there is. Various amounts of somewhat deep or very deep schooling has become a part of many trainer's training routines. It's seen in the jumpers as well as dressage, and the more hyperflexed positions are said to have come from the jumper trainers. This started to be noticed in the international warmup rings about 30 years ago, though it was used well before that, but that's really when the internet started to be accessible for social chats about it. Some riders, and then more and more, were warming their horses up in various amounts of 'deep and round', 'hyperflexed' or 'rollkur'.

And before you start pointing at me and screeching like Donald Sutherland in 'Bodysnatchers', no, I don't train this way, never have, probably never will.

to me it would have been stranger if you and your horse had been started in rollkur the very first week.

You don't explain why it would be stranger to you. However, your statements imply that this is some sort of cult indoctrination, and would be calculatedly gradual.

they are pro's. and pro's check the lay of the land before they 'build a dam'. and if you're in the equestrian media they will be positive to make sure you come away with nothing but good impressions (they've a lot of fences to mend)

No horse trainer I've ever met 'builds a dam', calculatedly laying in wait before springing their training methods on the unsuspecting innocents. It's all out there, for all to see, from the start.

Watch out! Watch OUT horsetvgirl, Anky will lock you in a dank, dark drippy basement and deprive you of food and water, then wave a dutch pastry in your face til you SWEAR you will pull your horses head to its chest!

but at the same time, someone who isn't open to rollkur isn't going to go to their stables to train in the first place.

It begins. LOL. In fact, what she said was that she didn't see any horses being schooled that way. The unsuspecting innocent still sees students who have been going there for years, and by your logic, many of them would have drunk the purple koolaid already, and should be flocking around our poor HorseTVGirl like characters from 'Shawn of the Dead', tearing at her clothing and whispering, 'hyperFLEXION....hyperFLEXION...COME with us....JOIN US....You muuuusssstttt...'

i hope you and your horse have a safe time, and you learn what you want to learn.

I didn't get the impression that you sincerely believe that in any way, shape or form. Actually, I think you want her to run out of there leading her horse and lighting a pair of draw reins on fire, all the while screaming, 'No, No, I won't do it I tell ya! Come on horsey, run, RUN!', while Anky runs after her waving the tantalizing dutch pastry calling out 'JOOOOIN USSSSSS!' and coughing like Gollum.

Roan
Sep. 28, 2009, 08:35 AM
. . .but at the same time, someone who isn't open to rollkur isn't going to go to their stables to train in the first place.

It begins. LOL. In fact, what she said was that she didn't see [B]any horses being schooled that way. . . .

Well, I'm confused. Care to quote her post on CotH as to where she said that?

Eileen

slc2
Sep. 28, 2009, 08:38 AM
i thought she said that in her blog but i could be mistooken.

anyway, back to my dutch pastry...GOLLUM!

Roan
Sep. 28, 2009, 08:46 AM
i thought she said that in her blog but i could be mistooken.

anyway, back to my dutch pastry...GOLLUM!

I think those Dutch pastries may have a little "special" ingredient in them. Or was that Sweden? :D

Eileen

Carol O
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:37 AM
So, Horsegirltv, we know what you are not doing.

What are you doing that is improving you horse so well?

horsegirltv
Sep. 28, 2009, 04:02 PM
Short and to the point, I am learning the basics of going straight, getting my horse in front of my leg and soft in the hand. No fancy tricks, just basics and that's what was hoping/expecting to work on.

Notes on my blog were BEFORE I arrive to The Netherlands and made at my personal facility stateside, FYI.

Thanks to those that wrote nice replies. It's been a great experience here all around and the support is greatly appreciated.

To each his own. For me, a chance to take a peek at this training system to improve my riding, training, and my horse in a positive way is personally an amazing opportunity for me.

Best to all and here's wishing you follow your dreams whether others agree with the direction or not. :D If it's your passion, go for it!

Foxtrot's
Sep. 28, 2009, 05:22 PM
Horsegirl - Is Carrera the mare by Contucci?

Mardi
Sep. 29, 2009, 02:21 AM
hmmmmmm

I wish the OP would have answered my question before she waved goodbye.

horsegirltv
Sep. 29, 2009, 04:00 AM
hi foxtrot. yes that would be my mare. :) she took the trip amazingly well and is in great shape!

horsegirltv
Sep. 29, 2009, 04:02 AM
mardi,

there's no reason to give you remotely any ammo to attack me or the training method i'm studying. that's a bottom line.

again thanks to those subjective folks with nice words.

regards,

bort84
Sep. 29, 2009, 12:00 PM
Wow! Jealous = )

I've worked with a lot of different trainers in different disciplines, and almost ALL of them have techniques that I wouldn't use. However, almost ALL of them also have taught me a lot of things that I hadn't thought of before or known about before that work wonderfully.

Anky is hardly a horse abuser and clearly knows a lot about her trade. While the way she is often portrayed by the anti-rollkur crew is not a trainer I'd like to ride with, I realize that a lot of that is propoganda. I know she can't be riding all of her horses for every minute of every ride (or even for most of the minutes in most rides) with their noses buried in their chests or yanked around to her toe.

I would jump at the chance to ride with her because I'm almost positive the 15 second video clips and moment in time pictures sensationalized by the anti-rollkur people are not the full picture of Anky as a trainer. Are there other people I'd rather ride with if they'd have me? Sure, but I still think she has a wealth of knowledge and could teach me a lot about dressage. I'd also love to get a chance to see her day to day works so that I could come back and report that she is not the crank and spank trainer people like to make her out to be. Perhaps I'd find that she is, but I'd certainly like to give her the benefit of the doubt.

ideayoda
Sep. 29, 2009, 12:41 PM
So what specific training methods/basics are you (asked) to employ to develop the horse or to create a softness in the hand? What balance and bearing? What exercises? What tempo? What equipment? Why (reasoning for requests)?

Foxtrot's
Sep. 29, 2009, 03:55 PM
c'mon folks - give Horsegirl a break. She has been there a week. We have a golden opportunity to discuss training in Holland and we chase the girl away. Listen with an open mind.

FancyFree
Sep. 29, 2009, 04:51 PM
c'mon folks - give Horsegirl a break. She has been there a week. We have a golden opportunity to discuss training in Holland and we chase the girl away. Listen with an open mind.

I agree. I'm happy that she posted and I have bookmarked her blog.

Horsegirl I hope you will come back and discuss again. At any rate, I will read your blog. What a fantastic opportunity! Thanks for sharing with us!

egontoast
Sep. 29, 2009, 04:58 PM
Thanks for posting your experiences, Horsegirl. Your blog is very interesting.

nhwr
Sep. 29, 2009, 05:34 PM
I have had the pleasure on watching Anky ride about a dozen times in warm up, competitions and demonstrations from 1998 til 2006 or 2007. I have even spoken to her a few times, though never in any real depth. Still she struck me as a hard working, talented and caring rider as well as a person who has no trouble speaking her mind. If people are truly interested in her methods, why not ask her? (instead of peppering her students with loaded questions)

hosregirltv, thanks for sharing and I enjoyed your blog :)

slc2
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:02 PM
Thanks, horsegirl, it is great to hear about new experiences. Keep up the great work with horsegirltv, it is absolutely wonderful!

horsegirltv
Sep. 30, 2009, 04:09 AM
So what specific training methods/basics are you (asked) to employ to develop the horse or to create a softness in the hand? What balance and bearing? What exercises? What tempo? What equipment? Why (reasoning for requests)?

normal stuff you'd hear from most people when concerned with basics. my mare was trained in the style (not by me as i've had her less than one year) of driving. that whole hang and kick scene where you need to be a weight lifter to manage the ride on some level.

working on lightness. defining my contact in a light way. nothing is super fast or furious. nothing is running. i'm working on controlling my tempo.

no exercises other than keep her straight, up and getting as soft in my hand as possible.

equipment? a saddle, a saddle pad, a bridle and me. oh and polos or boots.

reasoning? unless i get her soft off my leg and in my hand and going at the tempo i request there is no need for practicing her tricks.

i came here to learn the basics not ride the grand prix. i've already done that and the GP test is fun but i want to learn to ride thoughtfully and with awareness and redefine my feel.

that's it. very simple. no gadgets. no mystery. no crazy rumor stuff. just basic riding lessons to become a better communicator with my horse.

i'm going to unsub from this thread now just FYI as i should have waited until i was back stateside to consider starting a positive post on my experience as i need to focus on the experience in this time.

to those with open minds and positive thought, thank you.

to those set in their opinions (not matter if they are formed from a photograph, an article, hearsay or maybe the tiny, tiny few that have seen someone doing what they thought was "the system") best to you. if you don't like something then don't do it.

i've ridden with "the" french classic (also controversial in another way), Bettina Drummond, and enjoyed her training very much. i've ridden/trained in spain, germany and all over the states with locals and olympians and enjoyed aspects of them all.

thanks for reading and have a great rest of the week. :)

horsegirltv
Sep. 30, 2009, 04:12 AM
I have had the pleasure on watching Anky ride about a dozen times in warm up, competitions and demonstrations from 1998 til 2006 or 2007. I have even spoken to her a few times, though never in any real depth. Still she struck me as a hard working, talented and caring rider as well as a person who has no trouble speaking her mind. If people are truly interested in her methods, why not ask her? (instead of peppering her students with loaded questions)

hosregirltv, thanks for sharing and I enjoyed your blog :)

thanks very much! good points! glad you had a chance to see some of the riding first hand. it's not what people contort it to be in the least!

have a great day. :)

ideayoda
Sep. 30, 2009, 12:26 PM
Follow up: Are you going large (entire arena) for straightness then? Or in 'position'? Any figures used at all? How are you to create softness in hand? Half halts? Shuttling the bit? What tempo is chosen? What bearing? (Up and open, low and round, forward/down/out) A snaffle or full bridle? (Rein hold of traditional 2:2 or ???) Reasoning for the lack of figures/exercises??

claire
Sep. 30, 2009, 01:04 PM
horsegirltv, Enjoyed reading your blog, and hope you keep sharing this fantastic experience!

That said, maybe you might want to think about changing the title of this thread to avoid a trainwreck?

The title "Rollkur and LDR First Hand" suggests that you are training RK/LDR with Anky. When, in fact, RK/LDR is just one aspect or tool used in Anky's training system. A tool that both Anky and Sjef say is reserved for use by the most experienced riders.

Perhaps "My First Hand Experience Training with Anky" might be less inflammatory and allow a much more accurate discussion of your experience?







normal stuff you'd hear from most people when concerned with basics. my mare was trained in the style (not by me as i've had her less than one year) of driving. that whole hang and kick scene where you need to be a weight lifter to manage the ride on some level.

working on lightness. defining my contact in a light way. nothing is super fast or furious. nothing is running. i'm working on controlling my tempo.

no exercises other than keep her straight, up and getting as soft in my hand as possible.

equipment? a saddle, a saddle pad, a bridle and me. oh and polos or boots.

reasoning? unless i get her soft off my leg and in my hand and going at the tempo i request there is no need for practicing her tricks.

i came here to learn the basics not ride the grand prix. i've already done that and the GP test is fun but i want to learn to ride thoughtfully and with awareness and redefine my feel.

that's it. very simple. no gadgets. no mystery. no crazy rumor stuff. just basic riding lessons to become a better communicator with my horse.

i'm going to unsub from this thread now just FYI as i should have waited until i was back stateside to consider starting a positive post on my experience as i need to focus on the experience in this time.

to those with open minds and positive thought, thank you.

to those set in their opinions (not matter if they are formed from a photograph, an article, hearsay or maybe the tiny, tiny few that have seen someone doing what they thought was "the system") best to you. if you don't like something then don't do it.

i've ridden with "the" french classic (also controversial in another way), Bettina Drummond, and enjoyed her training very much. i've ridden/trained in spain, germany and all over the states with locals and olympians and enjoyed aspects of them all.

thanks for reading and have a great rest of the week. :)

CatOnLap
Sep. 30, 2009, 01:25 PM
What is deemed "rollkur" is a master's tool- Anky and Sjef have always so stated. It is not something one would be taught in the course of ordinary schooling especially when starting the basics.

FWIW, I have ridden with FEI rider/coaches who are students of Anky, Coby, and Christy Boylen and have been taught some version of rollkur by all of them, as they were taught by their teachers. It is not a tool I would use without supervision as I am not a master and in my current riding, there is no call for it. it is not a magic bullet or panacea to be used indicriminantly. I would think it is a tool that even Anky would not pull out on a frequent basis for many reasons, as witnessed by the OP.

and OP, what a wonderful opportunity to ride with a master. Go for it and learn all you can.

Long Spot
Sep. 30, 2009, 04:39 PM
Really excited to check out your blog, horsegirl.

Shrunk "N" Da Wash
Sep. 30, 2009, 04:45 PM
I hear a train coming :eek: :lol:

Foxtrot's
Sep. 30, 2009, 07:48 PM
I don't.

iRider
Sep. 30, 2009, 10:57 PM
I've seen Anky in several clinics/demos as well as warming up for competitions. I was most recently at Windsor for the WEG, and watched her with Salinero for several days.

I find her interesting, and she does have a unique/funny sense of humor. A little off-beat, and sometimes Americans don't quite "get" her jokes! I do believe she is misunderstood and over-criticized.

Mardi
Oct. 2, 2009, 01:23 AM
mardi,

there's no reason to give you remotely any ammo to attack me or the training method i'm studying. that's a bottom line.

again thanks to those subjective folks with nice words.

regards,

Just a minute.

I'm not looking for ammo to attack you or the training methods you're studying.

You started a thread saying that you haven't seen any horses ridden in the manner which is controversial since you've been at Anky's. You even titled your thread with the subject.
YOU chose to bring it up.

Many people here are envious of your situation and want to know more about what it's like. I am one of those people.

I asked a straight question out of curiosity. How would a student handle what may be a difficult request from her very famous instructor.

I pictured myself in your position, and wondered what I'd do. Since you are there and brought up Anky's training methods here, I thought I'd ask you.

If her request would be ok with you, then just say "it would be ok with me." Fine. End of story.

Instead, you have declined to answer my question twice.

That and your attitude has told me more than any answer ever could.

Thanks for the education.

slc2
Oct. 2, 2009, 06:27 AM
The anti-rollkurist have had their day in court for 24/7 for 10 years on this board, and shouted down every other point of view on this matter, even the questions, even the ones not quite so extremely, angrily, hysterically, rabidly anti as theirs but not for it.

Once, one time, I think it is ok to have a not so completely rabid point of view of Anky van Grunsven on this board. You don't agree, and you want to make the person who brings it up look bad? Well, it's sad to see that this subject can only be covered from one extreme angle here and every time, resorting to personal insults.

And no, actually, I don't ride that way, I'm not even in favor of it as a technique, but I think it's a shame that someone can't come on this board without a personal attack on her character AND THEN get attacked AGAIN for refusal to get dragged into trying to defend herself when attacked, she can't come here and simply say she is enjoying her lessons with Anky and they work on straightness, obedience and other rider skills? That is a pitiful example of how one-sided discussions here have to be.

bean
Oct. 2, 2009, 07:33 AM
Follow up: Are you going large (entire arena) for straightness then? Or in 'position'? Any figures used at all? How are you to create softness in hand? Half halts? Shuttling the bit? What tempo is chosen? What bearing? (Up and open, low and round, forward/down/out) A snaffle or full bridle? (Rein hold of traditional 2:2 or ???) Reasoning for the lack of figures/exercises??



Give me a break...

How verbose...

egontoast
Oct. 2, 2009, 10:05 AM
Follow up: Are you going large (entire arena) for straightness then? Or in 'position'? Any figures used at all? How are you to create softness in hand? Half halts? Shuttling the bit? What tempo is chosen? What bearing? (Up and open, low and round, forward/down/out) A snaffle or full bridle? (Rein hold of traditional 2:2 or ???) Reasoning for the lack of figures/exercises??


good grief.

Tiligsmom
Oct. 2, 2009, 01:10 PM
Posters -
Horsegirl is a VERY SAAVY rider and business woman. Her posting here was deliberate on many levels. If you're interested in her journey and/or her business - horsegirltv - then I'm certain you'll be able to get the answers and engage in the dialogue you want on her site :).

Mardi
Oct. 2, 2009, 01:15 PM
Once, one time, I think it is ok to have a not so completely rabid point of view of Anky van Grunsven on this board. ..... she can't come here and simply say she is enjoying her lessons with Anky and they work on straightness, obedience and other rider skills?

I agree, and I wish the OP had posted her thread that way, and left out the dreaded "R" word.

bort84
Oct. 2, 2009, 01:23 PM
Posters -
Horsegirl is a VERY SAAVY rider and business woman. Her posting here was deliberate on many levels. If you're interested in her journey and/or her business - horsegirltv - then I'm certain you'll be able to get the answers and engage in the dialogue you want on her site :).

Well obviously. It is still nice of her to be sharing her unique experience even if it will be more thoroughly documented on her site where she can get more advertising credit. Doesn't bother me. I'm just glad she's sharing so maybe some people will quit with the "Anky's an evil dressage monster ruining our pure sport" lines. Haha, who am I kidding, that's not gonna happen = )

Tiligsmom
Oct. 2, 2009, 01:27 PM
Well obviously. It is still nice of her to be sharing her unique experience even if it will be more thoroughly documented on her site where she can get more advertising credit. Doesn't bother me. I'm just glad she's sharing so maybe some people will quit with the "Anky's an evil dressage monster ruining our pure sport" lines. Haha, who am I kidding, that's not gonna happen = )

Doesn't bother me either. I know Horsegirl and have no criticism of her. My point is that if posters expect to go deep here, they will be frustrated. If they want to go deep, they need to go to her site.

bort84
Oct. 2, 2009, 01:34 PM
Doesn't bother me either. I know Horsegirl and have no criticism of her. My point is that if posters expect to go deep here, they will be frustrated. If they want to go deep, they need to go to her site.

Yep. I'm doing that right now! Haha. How interesting = ) I need to start playing the lotto I think...

nhwr
Oct. 2, 2009, 05:34 PM
Imagine the following phone conversation;

"Hallo"

"Hello Anky? Are you going large (entire arena) for straightness then?
Or in 'position'?
Any figures used at all?
How are you to create softness in hand?
Half halts? Shuttling the bit?
What tempo is chosen? What bearing? (Up and open, low and round, forward/down/out)
A snaffle or full bridle? (Rein hold of traditional 2:2 or ???)
Reasoning for the lack of figures/exercises??"


"Who is this?"

"Anky, it is me - ideayoda!"

a long pause

"Excuse me but who is this??"


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

egontoast
Oct. 2, 2009, 07:16 PM
Anky, Anky, one more thing I MUST know before I can really help you :



what is the Reasoning for the lack of figures/exercises??



AVG: "HUH? ( psst sjef, I think it's that St georg person on the phone)"

indyblue
Oct. 2, 2009, 07:28 PM
Horsegirl.I look foward to reading your blog.What a fantastic experience for you.
Ideayoda.You forgot to ask what she has for breakfast.

slc2
Oct. 2, 2009, 07:31 PM
Anky has said in interviews and clinics that she doesn't do as much of the positioning inside as some others do. I think there are horses and stages of training where it's important, and I think it's less of an issue with other horses. I also think some people get the horse rather straight and correct without having to do a lot of position, just because of how they ride.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Oct. 2, 2009, 07:46 PM
AVG: "HUH? ( psst sjef, I think it's that St georg person on the phone)"

:lol: [Spewing iced vanilla latte on computer screen] That was HILARIOUS!!! :yes:

nhwr
Oct. 2, 2009, 11:21 PM
Here is the thing;

figures and exercises are pretty easy if the horse is truly off the leg and seat, straight, engaged and light in the hand.

In dressage it is the basics, not the tricks, that are truly challenging.

Sabine
Oct. 3, 2009, 03:03 AM
Here is the thing;

figures and exercises are pretty easy if the horse is truly off the leg and seat, straight, engaged and light in the hand.

In dressage it is the basics, not the tricks, that are truly challenging.

AMEN- lady and if anyone doesn't get that yet- then go back to square one!!!
It's the whole story...and there is a lot to this story- and it's at times horribly boring!! Hell yeah...that's it!

egontoast
Oct. 3, 2009, 06:03 AM
Just in case anyone missed it, I was joking.:)