PDA

View Full Version : Can you claim your own horse?



gholem
Sep. 25, 2009, 09:47 PM
If you enter a horse in a claiming race can you just claim him yourself to prevent him from being claimed by someone else? What are the transaction costs that are associated with claiming?

If it isn't _strictly_ permitted couldn't one just set up two corporations and then ping pong him back and forth in ownership each race?

DickHertz
Sep. 25, 2009, 10:20 PM
No, you can't claim your own horse.

And yes many have tried to get horses starter eligible by having friends and uncles claim their horse in hopes of getting it back. I know a horse once who had 39 claims entered after his starter condition was running out.

mht
Sep. 26, 2009, 08:02 AM
If there is more than one claim slip in for that particular horse, then a draw is held to see who gets the horse. Had this happen to me once. Two claims on the same horse, the other also from my trainer's barn. I lost the claim and boy was I glad in the long run. The mare was an absolute basket case and the other owner wasn't long getting rid of her either. I think she ended up someplace like Beulah or Thistledown.

Acertainsmile
Sep. 26, 2009, 10:08 AM
As far as costs to claim, most states you have to pay the sales tax on the claim.

Las Olas
Sep. 26, 2009, 11:03 AM
the other also from my trainer's barn.

Interesting. When I was racing in KY, a horse couldn't be claimed into the claimed from trainer's barn. Any horse claimed from a trainer's barn cannot return to that barn for at least 30 days. Not to say there aren't ways around that, but having a trainer claim a horse from one client for another client (or for himself) is (or was) a big no-no.

Las Olas
Sep. 26, 2009, 11:07 AM
No, you can't claim your own horse.

And yes many have tried to get horses starter eligible by having friends and uncles claim their horse in hopes of getting it back. I know a horse once who had 39 claims entered after his starter condition was running out.

All from friends/associates of the horses' connections? They must have really wanted to keep that horse.

tbracer65
Sep. 26, 2009, 12:48 PM
Interesting. When I was racing in KY, a horse couldn't be claimed into the claimed from trainer's barn. Any horse claimed from a trainer's barn cannot return to that barn for at least 30 days. Not to say there aren't ways around that, but having a trainer claim a horse from one client for another client (or for himself) is (or was) a big no-no.

Exactly. Everywhere I've been it's been that way, too. Also -- if you give the money to a friend to put in a claim to try & "keep" the horse (win the shake when there's others you know are going in for him) -- that is a big no-no & you can get ruled off for that. Hidden ownership?? I think that's what it's called here...

FAW
Sep. 26, 2009, 02:42 PM
What's the purpose behind "claiming"

QHJockee
Sep. 26, 2009, 03:33 PM
if you don't want the horse claimed, either move him up to allowance or starter allowance and if he can't hold his own there run him for a tag and praise god when he does get claimed that you have some money in your pocket.

halo
Sep. 26, 2009, 05:12 PM
What makes you think your horse is so appealing that he would be claimed? Ive been racing for 30 years, and havent had a horse claimed yet, even when I WANTED one claimed.

On the Farm
Sep. 26, 2009, 07:07 PM
For New York, the OP's question is covered in sections 4038.1 and 4038.11.

http://www.racing.state.ny.us/racing/racing.home.htm

I'm sure other states' laws are similar.

Laurierace
Sep. 26, 2009, 07:23 PM
As others have said you can not claim your own horse and if the officials get wind that a claim was made as a protection claim it will be voided and the horse will go to whoever wins the shake. Not sure what they do if there is only the protection claim and no others. What you can do is claim your horse back any time it runs for the new people.

Linny
Sep. 27, 2009, 02:03 AM
What's the purpose behind "claiming"

the purpose is to make sure people run their horses where they belong and not below their appropriate level to steal purses from lesser stock. You can run at too high a level but you wont make any money.

SleepyFox
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:38 AM
You can definitely put in a "safe claim." But, it must be a different owner and trainer and the horse must return to the new trainer's barn post-race. The money (claim price and state tax) will be taken out of the claimant's account, so it is a significant favor, but one that is done from time to time.

In addition to tax, some trainers will charge their owners a fee for claiming and some will charge a percentage or a fee when a horse is claimed from them.

In racing, the racing commissions look at the individuals behind corporate entities when licensing - all partners must be licensed as owners.

If the stewards discover any shenanigans, the guilty parties can be fined and/or suspended and the horse can also be banned from racing for a period of time.

DickHertz
Sep. 27, 2009, 04:16 PM
All from friends/associates of the horses' connections? They must have really wanted to keep that horse.

No, about 7-8 were friends, the rest was the rest of the backside.

gubbyz
Sep. 29, 2009, 01:28 AM
So is a claiming race the "bottom of the barrel"?

lily04
Sep. 29, 2009, 04:44 AM
It depends on the claiming price. You can run for a $100,000 tag at Belmont, I wouldn't call that bottom of the barrel but a $1,500 tag at a bush track would be. There are many horses that are very competative for years at the lower claiming levels.

Pronzini
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:24 AM
So is a claiming race the "bottom of the barrel"?

Most horses are claiming horses at some point in their careers. Some expensive sales horses should be claiming horses if you go by actual talent.

Think if it in show terms: there's FEI (Graded stakes); the A circuit (listed stakes); the B circuit (allowance to high dollar claimers) and the C Circuit/ schooling shows (the rest of us). Just like most of us wouldn't/couldn't ride against an Olympic caliber horse/ rider combination, you don't send an ordinary nice horse into Grade 1 competition. Smart people try to manage their horses where they are competitive which usually means some flavor of claimers. On the track, there is a great appreciation for the solid $20K claimer because with luck and properly managed that horse can have a 6 figure year -- not bottom of the barrel by anyone's standards. :)

DickHertz
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:56 AM
Bottom of the barrell is a blanket term, but generally it's not the bottom of the barrell. I've seen claimers set track records on numerous occasions for what that is worth. One of my favorites of all time was a big grey named Purple Peopoleeater who ran in claiming races at the end of his career and set the track record, which has now been broken, at the Meadowlands. He went 21/44/55/1:07, and that was like 12 years ago. Also, without claiming races, there is no Kentucky Derby or Breeders Cup. Claiming races is what fuels the thoroughbred industry and I believe something like 72% of all monies wagered in the US are on claiming races. But horses running for $2,500 at Beulah Park could be considered "bottom of the barrell".

Linny
Sep. 29, 2009, 10:00 PM
The perception is that claiming races are "lower" class than all others but that is not always the case. A solid NY claiming horse is a stakes winner at Laurel in the winter and there are claiming races with very high "tags."
Many horse that are in claiming races are there because there are no conditions left in allowance races and they are not quite up to stakes at their circuit. Once a horse is through allowance conditions ("non winners of 3 other than...) he's going to find himself in either listed stakes or high claiming races. Many go back and forth between stakes and claiming! Last year, Rick Dutrow ran a horse in the Breeders' Cup Turf Sprint. He was literally either going to the BC Turf sprint or a $50k claiming grass sprint. That was his choice. The horse's next race after the Cup was, guess what? A $50k claimer!

Las Olas
Sep. 29, 2009, 11:29 PM
he's going to find himself in either listed stakes or high claiming races. Many go back and forth between stakes and claiming!

Not always. Some tracks have open ALW races and you can also find them with money conditions.

Linny
Sep. 30, 2009, 07:36 AM
There are some open allowances. Here in NY the "money" allowances often have date clauses that prohibit horses that have won certain bigger purses. At Saratoga they boost purses, and then add a & starter bonus if more than 7 compete. It means that the winner of a claiming race at the Spa could find himself ineligible for a money allowance!
They run starters at alot of places too. In NY they starters often read "Have started for a claiming tag of $X AND are eligible for NW1 ofther than..." So much for the old timer with 3 allowance wins...
What they do in NY is run open allowances in the form of "fake stakes" usually with a nice purse, say $65k. They are often nice races but her in NY they also often draw major graded runners. Last week, Lucky Island (G2 winner) Songster (G2 winner) and Ravalo(G3 winner) ran in such a race. There were a couple of other tough birds in there too. They are some of the best sprinters on the circuit! The race in which Midshipman and Storm Play returned 2 weeks ago is similar. You might as well go for a G2 than a race like that!

Las Olas
Sep. 30, 2009, 01:11 PM
I hear ya, Linny. They write the money ALW with dates at Keeneland and you always wonder if they're writing a specific horse out of the race (ie hasn't won $12,450 since August 17th). Of course, I'm not a racing secretary, so there may be another reason for it that I don't know about. The dates and amounts just seem a bit odd.

Linny
Sep. 30, 2009, 08:14 PM
Unless the date is 6 mos or 1 year prior, it was written for someone. How about "Non winners of $1.2 since may 1st 2009" to admit Mine That Bird?

Today's open allowance billed as the "Mr. Right S" at Belmont featured 3 horses from the 2008 G1 Suburban as well as multiple sw Hunting from McGaughey and Honour Devil, winner of 2/3 of the Dubai Triple Crown. Not an easy spot.