Zoning and variances

[FlashGordon]

We are looking at a property tonight that is 6 acres, with a lovely century-old farmhouse and a very cute barn suitable for horses. It is a beautiful property.

Only problem, we just found out it is not zoned for horses.

Our real estate agent is trying to find out when it last was, if ever. He said we could apply for a variance but I am leery of buying the property on the notion that we *might* be able to get permission to keep horses.

Anyone deal with this and how successful were you in getting things sorted out?

[kari]

In my town, you would need a special permit, not a variance. I would go directly to the town, and put out feelers with the Zoning Officer. The Zoning Board of Appeals would be the issuer of the special permit in my town. At your hearing, any abbutters would be notified, and could object. What's the neighborhood like? Would horses be visible from the street, to your neighbors? I don't know where you are from, could you do any online research of the Zoning Bylaws? Sorry that my answer is kind of vague, but these by-laws vary greatly from town to town and state to state.

[IFG]

Agree with Kari. Check with the town. Do not rely on a realtor. They made it sound so easy to get the variances, but it took several years and several thousand dollars.

[SMF11]

I believe you can make an offer contingent on getting the variance.

That said, it is very hard to get a variance (harder than a special permit). From memory (always dangerous) the applicant has to show that there is no alternative for them, that changing the use of the property is the ONLY way to solve whatever problem they have. By that standard, I don't think you'd get a variance. However, our town also wants to encourage agricultural uses so you could explore that route (getting the area rezoned to allow horses (even harder than getting a variance!), seeing if you are in an agricultural district (if yes, then the "Right to Farm" law kicks in) etc.

Whichever way you go, it looks complicated!

[SMF11]

In order to figure out what your options are, how much it would cost to pursue them, and how long it would take, you will need to hire a good local real estate lawyer. It is not something I would try and do on my own (if I wanted to be successful) -- a local lawyer will not only know the law, but know all the local players (the zoning enforcement officer, the Town Board, the Zoning Board of Appeals (which is the entity that grants variances). Both kinds of knowledge are critical to success.

I'm in a small town in NY (and I'm on our Town's Planning Board). If you are in a more urban area my advice might not be as applicable.

[IFG]

Yes, hiring people familiar with the process makes it much easier. In my town, it is a local surveyor who handles many of the wetlands and variance applications. We hired him, and he shepherded us through the process.

[cloudyandcallie]

What is the property zoned as now? R1 or R2?

And are there subdivisions or other properties of the same acreage surrounding the place you are looking at?

Go hire THE local real estate lawyer in that county. Have him/her tell you if he/she can get the variance through, down here we have county commissions and metropolitan planning commissions, and have the variance heard before you purchase. At the hearing, anyone who is opposed to the variance can show up and be heard.

You do not want to buy property and not get it rezoned for horses, and you don't want to buy property where you neighbors will hate you and your horses for being there...........go read the "black powder" thread from last fall if it hasn't been poofed. Bad neighbors can ruin a beautiful place.

ETA: In my state, it is easy to get a variance if no one opposes it. If there is opposition, the person with the "home cooking" lawyer wins. Politics rules.

[nightsong]

It depends on where you are. Plus, zoning and things related to it CHANGE, often DRAMATICALLY, OFTEN WITH NO WARNING. It's POLITICAL, after all...

[ReSomething]

We had to file for a variance to keep my horse at home, at the time we were R1 A1 or some such, which gave us the ability to keep them if we made certain improvements to reduce flies and runoff. Pretty easy actually, but that was 30 years ago in that state, and no, I would never commit based on a RE agent's advice. Perhaps a contingent offer.

[swmorse]

And don't forget, if you do get the variance, and move in with horses, your neighbors might be not so nice about it.

[JanM]

I know you love the house, but it's not worth it if you get the variance (iffy at best), and the neighbors want you out. And if you buy, get the variance, and move in are you going to be the next person on here talking about neighbor problems, or kids bothering the horses, or someone's dogs chasing your horses through a fence? I'd keep looking.

[FlashGordon]

Thanks all for the input.

The property was absolutely gorgeous but I agree it is not worth the hassle of getting the variance. The back half of the acreage is heavily wooded, and the front half bumps into a neighbor that is directly in front of the property... kind of an odd set up... but I am not sure they'd welcome the horses living on our front lawn. The back would be too difficult to turn into pasture.

We liked it enough that we briefly considered it even without the possibility of putting my horse on it, but what is the point in 6 acres and a barn and no horse?

Anyway going to keep looking. We are definitely getting discouraged, horse friendly properties are hard to find unless we want to go an hour or more north or south, which my husband can't do with his very demanding job.

Thanks everyone for the perspective and the info, it definitely helped knowing a bit of what we were dealing with before we went to see it last night.

[klr]

realtor told them the property had lake rights--they're not allowed a stones throw from the lake--they haul their boat to another lake as can'nt afford to join lake society--can'nt sell home for what they paid for same reason DON'T TRUST THE REALTOR!!!klr

[Huntertwo]

realtor told them the property had lake rights--they're not allowed a stones throw from the lake--they haul their boat to another lake as can'nt afford to join lake society--can'nt sell home for what they paid for same reason DON'T TRUST THE REALTOR!!!klr

KLR, you are soooo right! We are in the process (again) of trying to sell our house to by some horse friendly land.

The things Realtors will tell you to make a sale are just....:eek:

I found one listed as a "Horse property". It wasn't a lot of land, so I called Town Hall to verify. Nope, can't have a horse. Needed X amount of acres.

Emailed Realtor and told her of my findings. She argued with me! I watched the listing and she still kept it as a "Horse property". :no:

Another time we had the maps of a property where house, septic, etc would have to go, but we wanted the house closer to the road. Realtor actually hand forged the maps and said we could put the house closer to the road. :eek:

Come to find out, again through Town Hall that the property was next to a Vernal Pool and nothing could be built within X amount of feet. Even the fencing would have to be 50 feet from this pool. Realtor didn't even know any of this...

I never ever go by their word... Do your own research!

[FlashGordon]

I will admit I've grown very skeptical of realtors! We wasted 4.5 months and 1k this spring/summer on a short sale that never went any where, despite our agent insisting it was a done deal.... Since then I've been very leery of anything any agent has to tell me....

I have no doubt current agent would have pushed this recent house as fine for horses had I not questioned the zoning....

[Robin@DHH]

Very good advice about doing your own research with the local
authorities about property. Also good to know that in most (maybe
all) jurisdictions, you need to have the seller and realtor put in
writing any assertions (i.e. horses permitted on property) because
in real estate nothing is actually considered to be binding unless
it is in writing. And be sure to keep the document for at least
a couple years in case something comes up after you buy.

If the seller and/or real estate agent (who is not actually your agent
but the seller's agent as it is the seller who will pay them when the
sale closes, not the buyer usually) does make an assertion in
writing that turns out to not be true or accurate, you will have
legal grounds to collect money from them for the difference
between what they said was true and what actually turned out
to be the case. If the seller and/or real estate agent won't put
something in writing, I would figure it just isn't what they have said.

[alacrity]

Just another vote for "Don't trust the realtor" especially on key issues like this. Before making an offer on anything, go to town hall and do your research on the property - its as simple as putting on your friendly concerned citizen face and asking the right questions. If you play your cards right you can do tons of research, look up all permits, variances, zoning, tax issues/liens, even water bills. Get a plot plan and do your own tape measure survey, knock on neighbor's doors, drive through at different times of the day to get a feel for the neighborhood. This will drive your realtor crazy but you can save yourself a lifetime of aggravation.

Sounds like you already made a smart decision on this property but don't let your realtor push you around - the name of their game is to get you to "trust" them so you'll rush into a decision and they get paid quickly.

[Yip]

We live in a totally ag county with no city limits for 7 miles in any direction. Still our county has regulations aboiut livestock/horse ownership.

We bought 9.4 acres and wew technically needed 10 to have even one horse. The neighbors on both sides have herds of cows so we didn't think they'd mind. I already had the horses 2 years when we decided to get legal and apply for a variance or special use permit - can't remember which.

I had to fill out a bunch of papers and answer questions about the property, manure, fencing, facilities, intended # of horses, etc. I even had to draw maps of our property and place everything on them, incl. manure pile. Then a woman came out and took pics of everything. She placed a big yellow sign in front of our house telling the neighbors that we were applying for this permit but it gave no info except our case # and the zonimg office phone #. A bunch of neighbors called but were fine with us wanting to keep horses.

Next we went to a planning & zoning meeting to plead our case. Everything was in order and they were pleased to grant the ok for up to 4 horses. They actually thought it was pretty funny that we bothered because few other ever do - only the nes from out of state (who respect laws, I guess, LOL!). They said probably up to 90% of the horses in our county are probably illegal. But they don't enforce it, obviously. This special use permit goes with the house in the event we sell, so the buyers won't have to go through it again.

It was a bunch of hoops, but we're (in the vast minority) legal.

I agree, don't count on your realtor for any good info. We got different info from every authority we asked. They all asked, why do you care? Just do it like everyone else!

[fivehorses]

How is this.
I have a neighbor who is selling a neighbor's property in our little deed restricted community.
Not only did she put up a sign on my private drive pointing to the farm for sale, she also says its ok to run a business(it's not) and its ok to live in a camper(it's not).
She is totally low life scum since she is so eager to sell the property, she actually lies about the deed restrictions and brings people thru my road since its a better road than the sellers. All not allowed.
Do not trust realtor's. There really isn't anything you can do, and you are holding the house, etc.

[Mara]

I work in zoning/permitting for my company and variances are indeed very hard to get. Basically what you are requesting is official permission to break the rules, and you have to have a good reason why the rules should not apply to you.

It is very political, especially in an election year. Any commissioners up for re-election, especially if it's the commissioner who serves your district, will likely vote "no" if there is any opposition.

Variance hearings are public, and your neighbors will likely be notified in writing as to what's up for a variance and when the hearing is. (Some municipalities do the notification themselves, and some require the applicant do so. I just finished doing this for a client. It was 200+ certified mailings and cost nearly $300). You can pursue overturning a denial in court, but rarely do individuals choose this option.

Good luck. If you decide to pursue this, I echo the previous posters who advise hiring an attorney. You can be denied in some places for any number of what would be considered minor technicalities.