Wolf on my farm [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

Mozart

Sep. 25, 2009, 11:43 AM

So...bought a big farm this summer (old farm, vacant for over 20 years) and we have started cleaning it up. Open pasture land, mature trees and some bushy parts as well. I was expecting bears and coyotes. Wolves...not so much.

DH casually mentions to me last night that the last time he was out there cutting grass, he saw a deer come out of the bush near the old farm house. Big buck, several points on his antlers. He is on the tractor, moving towards the deer and can't figure out why the buck isn't moving. As he gets closer, the buck turns and walk back into the bush. He notices there is something hanging off the side of the buck, it looks like a piece of hide hanging down.

Immediately behind the buck is what he believes to be a wolf, large animal, big bushy tail. We have coyote, we know what coyote look like, he is certain this was not a coyote. In fact, there have been confirmed sightings of wolves in our area this year, but it is still pretty rare to see them.

He doesn't know if he interrupted an attack or if the deer had been injured in some other way and the wolf was tracking it.

I consider myself a wildlife fan....but I wasn't expecting to share my farm yard with a wolf.

Anyone know if wolves are known to attack horses? I do a bit of breeding and sometimes have foals. Coyotes don't bother me and while I am not a bear fan, I know that they don't (typically) go after horses.

Wolves...have no idea. I'm thinking that an animal that might take on a full grown buck would give serious consideration to taking on a horse.....

SGray

Sep. 25, 2009, 11:45 AM

time to get a LGD (see lgd.org)

sk_pacer

Sep. 25, 2009, 12:11 PM

They will go after livestock but usually there are two or more. At any rate, I think your hubby read the signs right....the wolf was after the deer. Unfortunately, wolves DO find foals and calves much easier prey, and will go after them. Best to follow the SSS policy if it bothers anything other than deer, don't even report it because the fish and game people will tell you they don't exist same as they say about cougars. Yep, you got those too...know a man that lost a couple of foals to them.

Mozart

Sep. 25, 2009, 12:24 PM

We don't plan to actually move there for a few years, we are in the clean up (massive clean up, I might add) phase and then will start building a house. The place is pretty wild right now, not a soul (well, human) for miles so maybe once we have an active household it will seem like a less appealing place for wolves to hang out...

I keep finding interesting things on this old farm!!!!

Anyone want a 1950 ish Mercury with a tree growing out of it? :lol:

Bluey

Sep. 25, 2009, 12:39 PM

There is a reason those that made their living off the land eradicated wolves where they could.
Wolves are a real danger to your horses, other livestock, pets and people.

Someone illegally turned some wolves out West of here and one ended up in our canyons.
He was not concerned at all with myself driving around, getting out to open a gate and close it and again when I came back by there, he was still smelling around something on the edge of the draw, barely looking my way once.

We are a wildlife preserve, so we don't do anything other than record and call the game warden, so he can confirm and record also.
If we get a pack here, we will have to cope.
The same with mountain lions, except that those are rather solitary and protect a large area, some 150 square miles, so the damage one may do eating the ocassional horse or cattle is not that large.
If wolves become too destructive to the environment, then we may have to start a control program.

Thankfully, the non native wild pigs, that are really destructive to their environment, are fair game and we need to keep thinning them.

One wolf, no problem, a pack, I would be getting in touch with the local game warden and see where the wolves rights end and my rights start.;)

TKR

Sep. 25, 2009, 12:47 PM

Wolves seem to stir such fear! I understand your caution, but they are being hunted to extinction as it is, so please don't make any rash decisions. There have been permits issued for expansive wolf hunting in several western states and of course Palin has been responsible for massive wolf killing in Alaska. The Defenders of Wildlife is desperately trying to stop this so they can be preserved and allowed to live in their natural setting. They can co-exist and there is probably plenty of wildlife to support them. They are an integral part of the ecology, not a being to be feared. They are beautiful, live in families and mate for life -- hope you can enjoy them once you move there as a part of the natural environment.
PennyG

OverandOnward

Sep. 25, 2009, 12:48 PM

sk_pacer

Sep. 25, 2009, 12:51 PM

Mozart - I'll swap ya the 50 Merc with a tree for a mid 40's JD swather with a tree!!!LOL

Bluey - watched a very disturbing thing on wild pigs last night....they sisd some very scarey things like sows can raise 3 litters in 14ish months starting at age 5 months and that rate of reproduction will double the number of pigs in a couple of years. They cleaned out a herd of them down by the border a couple of years ago...and they think they got them all.....all were tagged escapees and all missing tag numbers were accounted for after the hunt.

OverandOnward

Sep. 25, 2009, 12:53 PM

BTW if you live in a rural area and leave unsecured trash or dog food outside you will absolutely have interested wild critters to visit it - everything from raccoons on up. If you live in large-critter territory you will be lucky if the largest and most dangerous wild visitor you have is a wolf. The bears have been a plague in some residential areas of the Colorado mountains this year.

FatPalomino

Sep. 25, 2009, 02:12 PM

cloudyandcallie

Sep. 25, 2009, 02:19 PM

Some good reading about wolves:

David Mech's book about wolves. He was an expert who studied them in the UP. I've loaned my old book out and cannot remember the title.

And Farley Mowat's "Never Cry Wolf"

They are very intelligent. They eat a lot of rabbits and mice (as you'll learn about in Farley Mowat's book:lol:). They can harm the very young and very old horses, but if there is ample other game, they will usually not come up to your home. And they travel in packs of family members.

Bluey

Sep. 25, 2009, 02:30 PM

I'd love to know where in the country you saw the wolf!!!! And get some pictures ;)

We worked on a wolf hybrid once that the owners adopted from a shelter in Southern Colo. He was one of the most amazing dog (or crosses) I'd ever seen. He was around 14 and didn't make it through surgery (foreign body that perf'd). But, he was the healthiest, strongest, most special creature.

Wolves are making there way back into Colorado from Wyoming. Slowly.

Bluey- Pretty nuts about your area. Again, would love pictures!

I was all excited we saw a fox last night while riding ;)

I didn't get a picture of that wolf, didn't have a camera with me, but he sure was alone right then.
He was medium dark gray, lighter underneath, very, very leggy and kind of skinny looking, but healthy and had an odd shaped, triangular head.

As far as interesting country, nothing compares with what you have in Colorado.
We are but a long break in the rather flat staked plains, where the river carved a path and that made our canyons and small valleys.

EqTrainer

Sep. 25, 2009, 03:02 PM

I consider you a very lucky person, Mozart! Most of us will never see a wolf in the wild.

I am for leaving him alone.

jaimebaker

Sep. 25, 2009, 03:27 PM

We raised wolf hybrids for many years, and did at one time, have a full blooded wolf. She had been very abused and was a bit odd. Most of the time I would say most full wolves are more afraid of you than you are of them, but this wolf did go after my yearling bottle fed colt a few times. These were the few instances she got off of her line outside her kennel. But for her, she'd never seen a horse before I had taken him to my mom's, so it was new and exciting. I don't know what she would have done had she got close enough to catch him, thank god I was there and managed to tackled her to the ground the two times it happened. But wolves are wolves, if they are starving or just hungry they will will go after the young and weak and don't really care what sort of animal it is. But as someone said, if there's enough prey out there for them, they are unlikely to go after the horses. It's possible though, so you just need to be aware. A cougar is far more likely to stalk horses, even healthy ones. It is a thing of awe to see one in the wild but we must not let our heads get clouded and remember, you have animals and family to protect. Find out the laws and what your rights are.

TKR

Sep. 25, 2009, 03:35 PM

Since the wolves were there first and it is their natural habitat, it would be nice to learn about them and try to co-exist. They are struggling to survive because of folks moving in on them as well as macho, testosterone enriched idiots who want to kill them for sport (hunting from the air is such sport!).
PennyG

Arcadien

Sep. 25, 2009, 03:48 PM

Seconding the LGD suggestion. Although I live in southern NJ, it is one of the most rural parts (below the Wharton state forest) and we are having more and more coyote sightings on my own block.

Had one going after my neighbors guinea hens last week, across the street. People are getting worried -

but not me! At just 10 months my dog Beowulf is already over 100 pounds and bred to handle just this kind of thing. He'll be at least 160 pounds full grown and flanked by two adult male GSD's. He is a Caucasian Ovcharka with parents from Russian mountains who were bred to tackle wolves & bears, so pity any coyote that tries to enter my yard! :)

No worries here, as long as I can keep him from chowing down on anymore light bulbs (roll eyes - ref to my earlier thread - note all is well now, maybe Russian flockguard dogs have iron intestines, too, lol)

Good luck with your farm, it sounds awesome! I would love to live where wolves roamed free - but not without a flockguard dog (or two or three~)

MistyBlue

Sep. 25, 2009, 03:49 PM

Yep, you will see wolves alone. Once males reach sexual maturity some are driven out, and the alpha female will oust any female that doesn't act subservient to her or if that female breeds at all. Some elders are also forced out.
Wolves generally live in packs...but almost as common are satellite wolves. Those live on/circle the edges of pack territories and wait for chances to either ingratiate themselves into a pack or poach newly evicted members from the pack to start their own or just remain as lone wolves.
Seeing a single wolf following an injured buck is a satellite wolf most likely. If it were part of the pack then at least 2 or 3 would be following and trotting/running it down in relays to tire it faster. Packs send out more than one to take down injured animals because they don't want the prey to leave their territory while wandering and go into another one. I;d even bet that single wolf caused the injury and is now following it waiting for another chance to injure it again. Standard lone wolf hunting procedure. It can't take down a full grown deer easily by itself and it can''t run it until exhausted by itself so it waits to dash in and cause injuries and then follow along keeping it moving slowly and keeping it from eating, drinking or resting and causing more injuries or killing it when it's too weak to roam anymore.
I would worry with even a single wolf and small livestock. Although activity usually means they won't come around too often, if you have easy to take foals it might make it worth while for a single wolf.
However, a single wolf rarely stays in the same area for long and this one might be gone before you move in. Doesn't mean a new one won't move in, but the good news is if you see a single wolf that means it's outside pack territory and you aren't in pack territory. You may be close to the edge of one though.
I'd use some no-climb fencing and do look into LGD dogs. LGDs are very effective for large predators. And buy a paintballl rifle and scope. Zing one a time or two and it learns that this property isn't a grocery store. :winkgrin:
And get photos if you can! :yes:

RacetrackReject

Sep. 25, 2009, 04:08 PM

I have to ditto what TKR said on this issue.

Also, just make sure that your place does not become the easy way to find something to eat and the wolf shouldn't hang around. Don't put out scrapes, leave extra pet food out, leave trash where can be gotten into, etc.

I have a wolf hybrid. Not because I thought it was a cool thing to have or anything of that nature. I called a local rescue looking for a large breed puppy to be companion to my Siberian Husky. The lady told me that she didn't have anything at that time, but if I would be interested, she knew of some puppies that could not be brought into the rescue that I could go look at. I went, tentatively. Both parents were on the premises, so I met the sire who was full wolf. He didn't want to come to me until the puppies started crawling all over. Then he started playing like a puppy and begging to be petted and licking my face and hands. He was the sweetest animal and I wouldn't trade the puppy I took for anything in the world. She is the best dog! My vet and his staff love her to pieces.

Growing up, we had a single wolf that visited our farm. I don't know if he ran with coyotes or just always howled when they started yipping, but you could definitely tell the difference. My mother chased him down the drive with a stick once because she thought he was the neighbor's dog. We had calves and ponies and chickens and ducks and pigs and never had a problem with him. We mostly saw him eating mulberries under the tree at night when the fruit was ripe.

omare

Sep. 25, 2009, 05:11 PM

You could also touch base with these folks--they may be able to tell you more about wolf behavior etc and I think they love to talk about wolves and educate people about them .

http://www.wolfpark.org/

TesignedInGold

Sep. 25, 2009, 05:31 PM

Just a few quick comments on wolves: ( I had to study them and work with them and a wolf rescue in NJ for college)

- Wolves DO NOT typically attack people. Actually there has NEVER been a documented case of a wolf attacking a human in the history of the United States. They are actually very afraid of humans, and it is rare you see them in the wild because of this.

- The only time you should shoot a wolf, is if your shooting with a CAMERA. Wolve's are extremely endangered and on the verge of extinction - please do not shoot it.

- Yes your livestock may be at danger, but I would only TRULY worry if there is a pack around, and the deer and rabbit population is low. I would invest in no climb fencing, Motion Sensored lights (this would scare the wolves), and you can even invest in motion sensored sirens depending how far away from other people you are. (wolf crosses sensor, siren sounds, wolf runs!)

- Wolve's typically go for the old, the very young, or the weak. Don't leave any food around that will invite hungry wildlife (particularly in the winter) to come feast.

Bluey

Sep. 25, 2009, 06:38 PM

sk_pacer

Sep. 25, 2009, 06:56 PM

Wolves were not historically found where Mozart lives, nor do they belong where I live - they are not a plains animal. however, in the misguided effort to save wildlife, there are enough dingbats that release these animals everywhere they can, with wide open plains being one of those areas. Now, there is nothing wrong with saving wildlife per se, but dammit, these people release indiscriminately, not caring what already exists, and get species in the wrong areas. What we have moving in without help is enough trouble - moose, lots of woodland and swamp critters - in an area with one kinda lake and a mostly dry river. What do these behemoths eat?? well in the absence of their normal diet, about any thing they damned well want, and chase people out of their gardens, ruin crops, set livestock loose when they go plowing through fences willy nilly, and make large and frightening nuisances of themselves. Report it?? Sure, by all means, if you enjoy being told that moose are not found in dryland Saskatchewan, nor are elk, wolves or cougars and that you are seeing things. I have seen wolves and cougars and I certainly know the difference between either and a damned coyote. I also know the difference between a moose and a mule deer, and even the dimmest citiot would realise that something the size of a moose munching on the marigolds is NOT a mule deer or an antelope or anything OTHER than a moose.

Wolves here tend to go after easier pickings than deer or rabbits - they prefer belly of Bossy or Dobbin to chasing down deer in the wide open. Remember, plains, no cover or just bluffs of cover, small bluffs of poplar/birch/elm trees or berry bushes. Deer can see just as far as wolves can, and they run fast while most livestock tends to ignore dog shaped stuff until it is too late. And wolves are not endangered here, they are as much as a nuisance and crop destroyer as the non-existant moose. I just cannot wait until some fool decides to free flipping bison...we already have escaped elk.

Alagirl

Sep. 25, 2009, 07:42 PM

Is there any such thing as "one wolf," in the wild? I think I would assume a wolf belongs to a pack, out there somewhere.

I used to live and ride where coyotes were abundant, at a large board barn a few miles out of town. Individuals were frequently up around the barn at dusk, I think attracted by female dogs. In that location and time they did not bother the horses or the people. But they were hell on the dogs, once dusk came.

Wolves do roam alone at times. there have been interesting studies on this from Europe, on how wolves are migrating west from Russia and such.
They are almost always alone.

In tough conditions packs have a better chance to bring down larger prey.

But in all we are surrounded by a lot more wildlife than we think, and wolves are actually rather shy. So unles you put your new foals on the back 40 I don't see a lot of problems. Besides, there are always Llamas, Donkeys and Galloway cattle....

wildlifer

Sep. 25, 2009, 08:02 PM

Wolves are still a federally listed endangered species in the US and it is a federal crime to harm or harrass them, like it or not.

Laws aside, the ethical issue is that wolves need habitat too. And they are not a threat a healthy adult horse. Also, new DNA techniques are showing that many livestock kills traditionally blamed on wolves by the cattle and sheep industry are NOT the result of wolf attacks, but rather dogs.

Obviously, you would want to keep foals, seniors and sick horses under watch, but that should be standard practice anyway.

Wolves are shy creatures by nature and although hyped up by fearmongers to be attackers and killers, they are nothing of the sort. They end up being the scapegoat for a lot of things, but in reality are a vital part of a system that would collapse without them.

FatPalomino

Sep. 25, 2009, 11:00 PM

How would you feel if these were your sheep?

http://missoulian.com/news/local/article_5ff01772-938f-11de-9aca-001cc4c03286.html

That's a crazy story, no doubt. But who in their right mind had a bunch of sheep getting eaten in MONTANA and doesn't have a LGD? Everyone around here with "eatable" animals has one, and we don't have wolves.

You have some extra wolves, feel free to send them up to us. The Elk are getting a bit overrun in Estes Park. Last I heard they were shooting them with super quiet guns so that they won't be spooked of people. The other side said if wolves were back here, we wouldn't be overrun with Elk. They are the big tourist attraction up there ;)

I wonder what County would have said about this- didn't he raise a bunch of AQHA foals in Montana?

This thread is driving me to finally visit the wolf rescue up the canyon. They have lots of dog crosses, but still, would be cool to see....

Mozart

Sep. 26, 2009, 12:24 AM

I know there are some horse farms in the vicinity of Algonquin park in Ontario and I know there are wolves in that park; I should ask some people I know in the area and see what their experiences have been. This is definitely not wolf country although there is also a pack in Riding Mountain National Park, which is about four hours west and north of me.

I don't leave foals, ponies and seniors out over night anyway, more out of concern about roaming dogs than wildlife but this pretty much seals it! We will see if Mr. Wolf makes a return appearance when we are actually living there. We may generate enough activity that he or she decides to move on. I will probably be looking at getting another dog at that time and I should look into a LGD. There are most definitely black bears around and even at my current farmette, I don't go out to the barn after dark without my dogs. I have saskatoons, choke cherries, pembina plum and hazelnut trees on my property, I do not need to interrupt a bear putting on some winter weight.

So how does it work with these LGDs...do they just live outside? I have never been one to just leave farm dogs out on their own. Don't you have to worry about them wandering off the property? Also, it gets really , really really cold here.

twofatponies

Sep. 26, 2009, 08:22 AM

Wow. If I saw a wolf I would be thrilled. But I would never go far from the house without a big stick (at the least). There's been cougar spotted around here by people with experience and a good eye. A friend of mine was working in her back hay field and looked up and saw one sitting on a boulder at the edge of the woods, watching her. There have been other reports in the area, near the mountain she lives on, in particular. I'm sure they are shy, but I wouldn't walk alone in the woods, and if I had my own farm near the fringes of cultivated land I'd bring small livestock in at night, or have a guard dog. The coyotes are common enough, and take small animals as it is.

Alagirl

Sep. 26, 2009, 08:43 AM

So how does it work with these LGDs...do they just live outside? I have never been one to just leave farm dogs out on their own. Don't you have to worry about them wandering off the property? Also, it gets really , really really cold here.

That's what Great Pyrinease are bred for (sry, not enough coffee, can't spell) or a similar type of dog. they are bred to stay with the flock, and guard the property. The deal about roaming...I read a training book by Barbara Woodhouse I think, to keep the farm dog from roaming you have to socialise them to be you pack and they won't go far. But if you put up no climb fence, there should be no problem anyhow.

JackandMo

Sep. 26, 2009, 02:04 PM

Bluey

Sep. 26, 2009, 02:30 PM

Actually there has NEVER been a documented case of a wolf attacking a human in the history of the United States.

There are actually multiple documented cases of wolves attacking humans in the US - from the 1700s to as late as 2000. Wolves also commonly attack humans in other areas of the world.

Yes, they homesteaded this ranch in 1910 and the BIL was walking from the plains house to headquarters one day and a pack of wolves jumped him.
A cowboy working there happen to see it and rode to his help and beat them off him with his rope.
He was ok, they had torn at his winter clothes, but not injured him, other than some scratches.
No, that story was not recorded anywhere.

You really can't have guard dogs with cattle, they roam too far, don't stay in little herds and a dog, even a guard dog, is no match to a wolf pack in open country.

Wolves are not like mountain lions, not many, solitary and few per square mile.
Wolves, if not controlled, can become a nuisance in short time.
They are being reintroduced now and there are many problems already, barely into a few short years of reintroduction, with still short numbers of them.

We will just have to keep monitoring what happens and try to find solutions that are workable for all.

Dance_To_Oblivion

Sep. 26, 2009, 04:20 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Alaskas-Wolf-Man-Wilderness-Adventures/dp/1575100479

Interesting book about wolves in Alaska. Wolves are not quite as cute and cuddly as cartoons would have you believe.

Mozart

Sep. 26, 2009, 10:53 PM

We spent a big chunk of the day cleaning up at the farm today. Apparently the old farmer did not believe in throwing anything away...ever.

No wolf sighting today, the most interesting thing we found was two pieces of tyndallstone that I believe were an infant's grave marker. We found these at the bottom of a giant pile of rusting bits of metal hardware and machinery. The name on the stone was "Baby Argle" followed by what appears to be the outline of a fish (Christian symbol maybe?)

Note to self...be prepared to be surprised at what might inadvertently be dug up :eek:

Janet

Sep. 27, 2009, 12:01 AM

You really can't have guard dogs with cattle, they roam too far, don't stay in little herds and a dog, even a guard dog, is no match to a wolf pack in open country. The Flock Guarding Dogs have been bred for centuries SPECIFICALLY to protect the herd from wolf packs.

Janet

Sep. 27, 2009, 12:10 AM

So how does it work with these LGDs...do they just live outside? I have never been one to just leave farm dogs out on their own. Don't you have to worry about them wandering off the property? Also, it gets really , really really cold here.

It is a bit more complicated than that. I suggest doing a search on Ray (Ratmond) Coppinger, as he started the serious researchy on them.

Basically, while still a puppy, you put the guard dog in with the young sheep (or cattle, or other livestock). This causes the dog to bond with the sheep, regarding itself as PART of the flock. Thus, they will be protecting THEIR OWN group.

If properly socialized and trained, they won't wander off from their flock.

You leave them out as much as the flock is out. If the flock come in for the night, the dogs would too.

Bluey

Sep. 27, 2009, 08:08 AM

The Flock Guarding Dogs have been bred for centuries SPECIFICALLY to protect the herd from wolf packs.

It is a little more complicated than that.;)

How effective guard dogs are depends on the terrain and the livestock they are guarding.

The cattle we have in the West, in most places, wander off grazing individually, over large areas, most of thousands of acres.
That is what has been the best use of the semi and full desert grasses, that the larger herbibores spread and graze, as deer, elk and antilope do.
They are not contained in a small area, or herded into a group, as is imperative if you want a guard dog or other guard animal, or several, to be effective.

DLee

Sep. 27, 2009, 10:04 AM

Wolf hunting season has actually begun in Idaho and parts of Montana, I believe. They are no longer protected everywhere.

mlranchtx

Sep. 27, 2009, 11:26 AM

Yes, wolf hunting HAS begun in Idaho. My dad bought a wolf tag. He is not planning on hunting wolves but if he encounters an aggressive one while he's deer hunting, it's easier to have a tag than shoot one without a tag and have to explain why you felt threatened.

Janet

Sep. 27, 2009, 11:43 AM

It is a little more complicated than that.;)

How effective guard dogs are depends on the terrain and the livestock they are guarding.

The cattle we have in the West, in most places, wander off grazing individually, over large areas, most of thousands of acres.
That is what has been the best use of the semi and full desert grasses, that the larger herbibores spread and graze, as deer, elk and antilope do.
They are not contained in a small area, or herded into a group, as is imperative if you want a guard dog or other guard animal, or several, to be effective.
I grant you that the poor grazing may have cattle too spread out.

But in the traditional mountain grazing, where the flock guarding dogs developed, they are NOT contained to a small area, NOR are they herded into a group. They tend to keep together because grass is abundant enough, and they have an instinct to stick together.

wateryglen

Sep. 28, 2009, 09:27 AM

Can't help wondering about this too.....are you SURE it was a wolf? I've seen coydogs that look exactly like wolves and surely they weren't. Your description of yours might actually be a coyote mix. Some have thick manes, big heads, big sized, varied colorations. I mean, do they have wolves normally in your area of Texas?

Bluey

Sep. 28, 2009, 12:48 PM

I don't know what part of TX Mozart lives in, if in TX at all.
There have been wolves turned loose in NM and the game warden thought the one I had here may have wandered off from those.

You can see all kinds of coyotes and mixes, but when you see a wolf, you know that is what it is.
In person, they really are clearly different in too many ways.:yes:

Mozart

Sep. 28, 2009, 12:50 PM

eponacelt

Sep. 28, 2009, 03:32 PM

Wolves were not historically found where Mozart lives, nor do they belong where I live - they are not a plains animal.

Actually, different subspecies of wolves once covered almost all of North America. There are very few places (in the deep south, basically) which were not populated by wolves in the past. Plains wolves were some of the first to be eradicated from hunting due to the greater likelihood of conflicts with ranchers. Wolves tended to survive higher up in the mountains because they weren't as likely to compete with people there.

CircleD

Sep. 28, 2009, 03:34 PM

You need to shoot it, it will go after foals, and small animals.

Marcella

Sep. 28, 2009, 05:12 PM

Wolves are pretty dangerous. They are not something to take lightly. I was up at our 40 acres in N.WI this weekend. We have black bears and wolves. The wolves stay in a pack and kill bears. There were 4 wolves that sat and howled in the clearing of our cabin, and the next morning left a lovely deer carcass for us. It is a little scary to be forced to stay inside like that not knowing if they will run away when you come out, or if they will jump on you, because despite our yelling at them out the window, just kept on making a racket and didn't seem phased.

Our friend up there has lost cattle to the wolves, and others have lost horses, dogs. All the animals must be stowed in a barn now or else they might not be there in the morning. There have been small children attacked by wolves. The DNR will not do anything about it because nobody has a picture of the wolf actually attacking despite eye witnesses and then people chasing the wolves away or shooting them, and everyone in Madison doesn't see it a problem.

Luckily, people up north are a lot smarter and just deal with things as they happen in their own way.

maudie

Sep. 28, 2009, 05:45 PM

You have very little to fear from a lone wolf. Wolves are only successful in the hunt 10% of the time, and this is a pack! Flight distance is a 1/4 of a mile. So assuming you have a small herd of healhty horses you have nothing to fear from a loner. Now, if you had a very old horse or a baby, there is a slight chance.

Wolf Park in Indiana does weekly wolf-bison demos. They turn 2-3 wolves out in a field with a herd of healthy bison. They have never had an injury to the bison, it is more common for a wolf to be chased by a bison calf or yearling. The 'lead' bison often lies down on the other side of the field!

I'd also like to add that it was probably not a wolf, most likely a hybrid that someone thought was "KEWL!!!". Most "wolf hybrids" aren't even wolves at all, most are large huskys or other mountain breeds that are mis-identified (who other can of worms). If it is infact a dumped hybrid/dog, then you have more to worry about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF7mjArj3qw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C2Pkmx8NRo
http://www.wolfphotography.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=wolf&Category_Code=hunting
http://kiza.kcore.de/media/dj/wolfpaper/seneca_chased_by_a_bison_calf_dsc_2169

have I made my point that wolves are wimps?

BravAddict

Sep. 28, 2009, 07:39 PM

cloudyandcallie

Sep. 28, 2009, 07:45 PM

"Of Wolves and Men"

Thanks! I once fancied being a devotee of David Mech, but I couldn't take my Aussie with me to study wolves.

If people will read "Never Cry Wolf" they will learn that wolves eat mostly mice (as did Farley Mowat:lol:). Yes they can be dangerous, but they have their place in the wild............as long as people keep their horses and dogs and other livestock behind electrified fencing.

Too many people ready Saki's little short story which was fiction, and don't read the real studies on wolves.

Wolves, I think red wolves, smaller type, were reintroduced into SC and NC years ago but they kept swimming off of the island they were place on, so they went back to where ever they were obtained from.

BravAddict

Sep. 28, 2009, 07:52 PM

It's a well-researched book. Also, the statistic is that there is no confirmed report of a HEALTHY, WILD wolf ever KILLING a human being in the United States.
That is to say, "tame" wolves have killed people. Wolf hybrids have killed people. Rabid (or something, I imagine) wolves have attacked people. Wild, healthy wolves have attacked people. But not killed.

Presumably, wolves have a different reputation in the old world because human populations are so much more dense than they have ever been in the Americas; this (again, is thought to have) contributed to selection against fear of humans, and more hybridization with dogs.

I would be so thrilled to see a wolf. I do not think that the solution is to gun down the wolf, nor to leave it kitchen scraps, but somewhere in that happy medium that we like to call "common sense."

The plains most certainly are part of the wolf's natural habitat. Other than humans, no predatory species is so well-adapted to such a variety of habitats.

I am more afraid of mosquitoes.

cloudyandcallie

Sep. 28, 2009, 07:55 PM

BravAddict

Sep. 28, 2009, 08:06 PM

And the social order is amazing.

David Mech and his people studied the wolves on Isle Royale in their natural habitat, as did Farley Mowat in Alaska, altho he went a bit further and ate the same things as the wolves did and he marked his territory as did the wolves.

Mr. Mowat was, as they say, entrenched.

As long as I'm opining, Wolf Park is definitely the top source in the country for questions about wolves. If they don't know they answer, they know who does.

sk_pacer

Sep. 28, 2009, 08:55 PM

Actually, different subspecies of wolves once covered almost all of North America. There are very few places (in the deep south, basically) which were not populated by wolves in the past. Plains wolves were some of the first to be eradicated from hunting due to the greater likelihood of conflicts with ranchers. Wolves tended to survive higher up in the mountains because they weren't as likely to compete with people there.

The plains wolf was in long grass plains, not short grass prairies....all that was here, historically, was the prairie wolf, aka coyote. Even in native lore, wolves did not exist here - there is no cover beyond small bluffs of trees and whatever grows along creek and river banks. Wolves, for the most part like cover, and lots of it - a clump of poplar or birch every few miles just isn't really to their liking but once introduced, they do apparently adapt. I don't know if the ones they turned loose here are still around, probably died of starvation or cold (remember, no deep cover) or headed to better areas.

maudie

Sep. 28, 2009, 09:02 PM

Mr. Mowat was, as they say, entrenched.

As long as I'm opining, Wolf Park is definitely the top source in the country for questions about wolves. If they don't know they answer, they know who does.

yes!, I can't remember if I linked to them already www.wolfpark.org. Amazing place, I'm going in with the wolves as soon as I'm 18!

You can probably call them during regular hours, you'll most likely get an intern in the gift shop, if they don't know they'll track someone down for you

arnika

Sep. 28, 2009, 11:14 PM

I've handled wolves and like them as a species. If they think of you as part of their group and alpha, they treat you well and can even be played with. I wouldn't want to see them disappear or be hunted to extinction.

However, it's foolish and overly romantic to think that just because they live in family groups and mate for life that they are sweet and cuddly. They are a large predator, kill very efficiently and will take down large prey when they can. They also don't think of humans as noble copredators that they should live in peace with. They could care less about humans at all except to go around us to get to their food, whatever is available. Normal, natural behavior but often puts them in conflict with humans.

I love my horses, have put tremendous amounts of time and money into them and would be extremely upset to have them brought down by wolves, bears, or cougars. I'm lucky that I live in FL now where wolves aren't a problem but we did have an episode about 10 years ago when Fish & Wildlife released 6 western mountain lions into our woods(as an experiment:rolleyes:) without informing the public. They had to recapture them all when they began killing livestock and going into peoples' yards to eat their dogs. And that was WITH a huge food supply of deer, rabbits, squirrels, pigs and the like.

So while I appreciate the wolves right to existence, I also appreciate the right of the humans to have their territory for their livestock and their own safety.

By the by, didn't you read the news stories and see the footage last year of the Alaskan wolves that learned to stake out the jogging trail in one town? First they started shadowing joggers so the joggers started taking their dogs with them. So the wolves started running up behind the joggers and taking their dogs. Finally, the wolves began attacking the people themselves. It was an entire healthy pack exhibiting normal wolf hunting behavior, just using it on people herds! Very interesting to see the photos of the wolves in broad daylight stalking the people even with reporters there to get pictures. One of the reasons for Sarah Palin's agreement with hunting wolves by population centers.

Bluey

Sep. 29, 2009, 06:59 AM

The plains wolf was in long grass plains, not short grass prairies....all that was here, historically, was the prairie wolf, aka coyote. Even in native lore, wolves did not exist here - there is no cover beyond small bluffs of trees and whatever grows along creek and river banks. Wolves, for the most part like cover, and lots of it - a clump of poplar or birch every few miles just isn't really to their liking but once introduced, they do apparently adapt. I don't know if the ones they turned loose here are still around, probably died of starvation or cold (remember, no deep cover) or headed to better areas.

I don't know where you got your ideas, but we are in the semi desert, in short grass country, the staked plains and there have been wolves here all along, until the last one was shot around the mid 1920's, not that long ago, really.
When they settled around here, most farms/ranches kept hunting greyhounds and they hunted the wolves down with them for their pelts and the bounty on them, money that helped them survive by being able to buy the dry goods they needed, especially in the winters.

The day all the people living in cities and suburbs decide to let mice and crocroaches live in their houses with them, rats in their yards and fleas and ticks on them and their pets, because they don't want to disturb other life in this planet, that is the day I will listen when they tell me I have to let whatever wildlife decides to use my animals for a self serve buffet for them on any land I am in charge of.

I don't know where common sense has gone, when we are not letting others defend the animals they have from serious predators, on the idea of preserving some species that is definitely not endangered, as the wolves are.

I am so glad that wild pigs are not seen as noble, cuddly and sweet, because we really would be in trouble if those also become protected.
Wild pigs are only different to a wolf in that they reproduce so much more readily, so the effects of their destruction of the enviroment and native species is very obvious.

We have made some sort of mythical great figure out of the wolves, now that we don't have them eating our animals and threatening our families any more.
They are not that, any more than they are the mythical "bad wolf".
Wolves are what they are and considering them anything else is not doing right for them.
Wolves don't need to be cuddled and protected, they are plenty of them in many places, just as they don't need to be hunted in those places to extinction and they are not.

I think that there is an uneasy balance in nature, nothing is static, we can't go back to any one past environment and it's balance, because there is no such thing as true balance, the only true given is change.
We can direct the changes some, so the path they take advances whatever goals we set, but we should understand that changes there will be.

In nature, there are and have been many species that evolved and disappeared all along, when they found a niche to thrive in and when something else destroyed it or them.
We really are just one more part of that process.

Just think that if wolves or rats or pigeons would have evolved to be the supreme manipulator of their environment, as humans are, we humans would become just one more endangered species.:eek:
That would make some animal rights fanatics very happy, I think.:winkgrin: