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butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 25, 2009, 09:11 AM
So, i did a STUPID thing i'll never do again, not that the outcome would have been different possibly if i were riding... But, i let a friend ride my beloved cob mare, the mare that i have a bond with like no other in my life. It was in the arena with myself right there. Friend is a good rider, maybe a little slow in her reactions at times, but i didnt see an issue, my mare is usually calm and steady and that is how it started. I had told her that she is SUPER light to the aids, all was going well. Then my silly mare decided to see a shadow and spook in place by dropping her butt about 6" in her trot. It is an odd feeling to have the hind end disapear, but that is the extent of her spooks... My friend gripped when it happened and that was the end. My mare took off in an extended trot (a VERY powerful extended trot that you never expect out of 13.3h, which is something i love about her), rider lost her seat and one stirrup, mare had to turn, rider fell onto her neck, she broke into a short choppy canter and then just stopped and threw rider off. Rider survived, bruised and her chiro is working her kinks out.

That was 2 months ago. Ever since, my mare has been terrified of everything in the arena. She's NEVER been like that, she's always been brave and bold. My past few rides on her i've just had to take her in and walk, try to keep it pleasant and walk back out. Yesterday i just worked her on the lunge. I could only keep her relaxed going to the right. To the left was the direction of her "incident" and she would tense up, neck so tight it was ridiculous.

I HATE myself for letting someone else ride her. Though i know that if i had been the one to come off, i'm sure she would be doing the same thing, though i know this mare like the back of my hand and know i would have ignored the little spook and it would not have gone that way. This is a mare that my husband can hop on bareback and roll off, she's had someone "fall off" before, though it was deliberate. You can still do all of that with her OUTSIDE the ring. I can work her right next to the ring in the grass and have no issues, she's still my mare. In the ring is a nightmare. I'm thinking about hauling her away to a lesson and see if she has the same reactions in another ring. We have a show the end of Oct... :(

Anyone had something similar happen? That moment that you thought, CRAP, i just screwed up my horse royally? I know it will go away eventually with time and work, but please ease my mind and tell me your success stories...

Ajierene
Sep. 25, 2009, 09:18 AM
I never had that happen, but we did have a horse come to the barn that all the jumps in the ring were evil monsters. He spend the first week spooking every five seconds and just being an absolute terror. My instructor at the time decided to leave him in the ring overnight. The next day and from then on he was great with everything.

You might want to try just turning her out in the ring to let her sort it out herself. He was turned out by himself in the ring, not sure if that would help.

Vesper Sparrow
Sep. 25, 2009, 09:22 AM
I let someone with all sorts of BHS credentials but who was a very rusty rider get on my older mare. I had never seen her ride before. She tried to tell the mare to get on the bit rather than ask her and I dealt with the consequences for at least three weeks.

Since then, I have only let rank beginners and people with no dressage pretensions or ambitions ride her and it will stay that way.

exvet
Sep. 25, 2009, 09:45 AM
I've had similar issues before and it takes time to get them back. What about turning her out and feeding her in the arena? Do things that are totally different than what was involved in the incident but keep her in "that" arena so that she gets "desensitized" in a way. Continue to ride and work her outside the arena so you can keep her in shape and get ready for the show. I would go ahead and haul her out to another arena and see what she's like. I would do this soon so that if she does get nervous you can go again a couple more times to get her over her "memories". Eventually you are going to have to get her to work through the tenseness by asking her to do things (exercises) that are unrelated to what occurred but gets and keeps her mind totally on you in those spots where she is expecting someting bad to happen. It's hard to unlearn a welsh cob if ya know what I mean; but, you can get them past the issue. Now ask me how I know :winkgrin:

twofatponies
Sep. 25, 2009, 10:22 AM
That hardly seems like an accident or crisis - can it really have "scarred" her so badly? Are you sure you aren't nervous yourself, and the horse is picking up on it? I mean, sure horses remember stuff, but having a rider lose her balance, squeeze with her legs, lean forward, then fall off, hardly seems like a disaster.

Just that I've seen it happen (and it's happened to me before) where a rider thinks "oh poor horse, he's so traumatized" and the horse senses that, and feels "gosh, my human friend here is acting really nervous and weird. there must be something bad coming" and then they get more nervous. Does that make sense? Just an idea.

Tamara in TN
Sep. 25, 2009, 10:25 AM
[QUOTE=twofatponies;4399424]That hardly seems like an accident or crisis - can it really have "scarred" her so badly?

she's a Cob and no they don't forget these things



Are you sure you aren't nervous yourself, and the horse is picking up on it? I mean, sure horses remember stuff, but having a rider lose her balance, squeeze with her legs, lean forward, then fall off, hardly seems like a disaster.

well with some animals it would not be...others well, it probably seemed
like a cougar landed on their back some where in that corner...I'd be grateful that she is still riding out fine enough outside the arena...and like Exvet says...."ask me how I know":lol::lol:

best regards

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 25, 2009, 10:28 AM
My ring is a dressage ring (18" tall plastic chain sides) with mirrors on one shortside... I have no way of containing her in that arena and if i did set up a temp fence around it, she could get into it with herself in the mirrors. She is Miss Princess.

If it were an option, she would live out there until the Oct show... :)

She is calm if i walk her around on the ground out there. Her "incident" happened while in a trot, so it seems once she starts to trot, especially to the left, she remembers all to well the many monsters that ate her that day.

Exvet, i'm sure you know this issue all too well! :) It really does amaze me after owning so many breeds how very "unique" cobs are. I dearly wish it wasnt so expensive for me to ship her your way for a couple months and you could work out her canter issue too... :)

Her last show she did Intro A, woohoo! lol... But the judges comments in big letters, horse needs to relax... She left her marbles at home that day, i was cracking up during my test. I really didnt want to repeat that. This next show is at my instructors farm and while she usually drives to me for lessons, i do think i'll set up a few lessons at her place to let her see the ring again. Her ring is PVC not chain, but does have mirrors too, maybe it will be different enough to not have the same monsters.

I dont ride at home alone and my husband has been working a lot of hours lately, so i cant be too consistent either which doesnt help matters. But i have no issues with taking her out on the lunge line alone, so i'm going to keep with that at least as often as possible just to keep her going in the ring. Maybe take lots of cookies, she is a cookie monster, so it becomes pleasant experiences again.

It will come back, i know, i have faith in her, it just SUCKS that it happened! :(

scribbles
Sep. 25, 2009, 10:28 AM
The less you think about it, the better she will be!

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 25, 2009, 10:34 AM
Yep, Tamara has it right, that cougar ate her out there!

My general reaction to her being nervous about something, like the big christmas parade last year that we had to follow behind the drummers in the marching band... Is to slap her neck and tell her to get over it. I have confidence issues with her psycho hair raising canter/bast to the moon... But walk trot in my arena at home, no. I've owned her for 3yrs, i started her myself, we've gone camping, traveling across half the country together, and done a few parades. I know her well.

But like i mentioned, cobs are just such a different breed. I love that about them. But in this instance it is a bit frustrating, but i'm not mad at her, i'm mad at myself!

Tamara in TN
Sep. 25, 2009, 10:47 AM
Yep, Tamara has it right, that cougar ate her out there!

But like i mentioned, cobs are just such a different breed. I love that about them. But in this instance it is a bit frustrating, but i'm not mad at her, i'm mad at myself!


I have been successful with certain others by maintaining the walk/whoa perspective and at the first cue of panic coming back to walk/or whoa form where ever we are...she will want to be quick as a cat of course so you have to know that and keep her mind "between the ditches" as if were...

somewhere during the cougar attack she got bumped either on her back or her side....can you sit her trot deep and remain dead still ? even your legs ?

best

Sparky
Sep. 25, 2009, 11:04 AM
She sounds way too smart! We get a lot of horses in for a couple of months of training, and some are quite nervous about the jumps that are always up in the arena. So, we feed them a treat, or even their entire grain meal, on whatever it is that they don't like, right on the jump. Maybe you could do that in the area of the arena that she thinks is a bad place.

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 25, 2009, 11:13 AM
T- interesting that you say that because for whatever reason, its not something that i do very often with her at all at her stage in training, but i started sitting her trot the past couple rides and she isnt as bad! I hadnt really made that connection until you mentioned that, and really dont know why i even started sitting her trot except to maybe stay in the saddle more rather than her be silly while i'm in the air and not as securely "stuck." :D

The last ride, the spot where the cougar initially attacked, we just kept doing walking circles and whoa. She does respond well to whoa (had my friend have simply whispered that word, she would have stopped dead). She was tense, and heaven forbid i do more than THINK walk when leaving the whoa as lightning strikes should i move a muscle...

I've also been trying to ride her on very light rein contact, i know my friend cranked her nose to her chest, so everything i've done is to push the nose out and keep light as possible. Not floppy reins, but very light. A bit difficult when every few strides one hind leg sinks and you rocket launch forward and have to get her to come back to you again...

But good point, i'll stick with the sitting trot, maybe add some trot whoa transitions, she likes those, or at least did.

I'm guessing she was bumped on the left side of her if thats what happened, her lateral work while going to the left is nuts, i cant touch her with my left leg. I also have found that i cant cluck to cue, which is a bad habit anyway, so maybe she will cure that for me... But that also gets her riled up. I dont remember any clucking when it happened, so i dont know why thats an issue either.

Geesh, for those with "duh" types of horses, you are probably reading this and thinking good grief, how could all that happen from a fairly non eventful fall! If i could only go back in time!

twofatponies
Sep. 25, 2009, 11:26 AM
bfz - I don't think my Morgan is "duh" at all - but I realize reading more of your posts, my mare does have the advantage of being a lot older and more experienced. If you do something different once or twice she thinks that's the new thing to do (so she can learn a bad habit as well as a good one in no time flat, and would probably be a terrible horse for a beginner!), but she's also quite tolerant of "bad riding" - she probably would have run faster with a friend like yours hanging on her neck and grabbing her with the legs, but she wouldn't be worried about it afterwards.

They're all different, aren't they! I hadn't heard that cobs were so sensitive. Then again, I never realized how "hot" Morgans could be. Somehow people had always told me they were very mellow creatures. Tell that to my girl! :lol:

bort84
Sep. 25, 2009, 11:42 AM
1) I think you're beating yourself up WAY too much about this. She did a silly thing that couldn't be helped, and how were you to know your normally calm mare would take such offense to this rather small incident. She'll get over it eventually, and you shouldn't live in fear of letting your horses be ridden by generally competent riders just because of this one instance. It was NOT a stupid thing for you to do at all unless you knew your friend was a horrible rider that would clearly bother your horse (doesn't sound like that was the case).

2) Okay, she's a cob, she doesn't forget... That may well be a big part of your problem. Horses are individuals and they all do the unexpected once in awhile, and this not getting over it is certainly unexpected. But I'd guess it's a little bit of her and a little bit of you as another poster suggested. You may be unknowingly reinforcing her behavior.

Two months is a LONG time for her to be a complete nutter in the ring. I like the idea of turning her out in it, but you can't. I don't think lots of treats are going to get her through this completely, but it's probably a nice addition to training. It's impossible to diagnose a horse's reaction from the internet, but she might need a little bit more pressure put on her to help her understand that it's really not going to kill her. Do you long line at all? Some solid groundwork can really help in these cases, and keep you from getting dumped = ) Maybe longe her in a surcingle with side reins? Just something to put her in a work mentality instead of in an "omg, everything is going to eat me" frame of mind.

If you have a pro in the area that you trust that could come out and do one ride or one long line session, I'd strongly recommend that. I think this mare might just need a LOT of confidence from her rider/handler and you might need to let yourself decide she's being a bit silly (because even if she's actually scared, she's being silly) and use a slightly firmer hand.

Again, not saying she needs to be beat around the ring, just saying that you need to be confident enough to say, hey, you're being silly, you can do this, and we're going to do this. If you're really not sure, I think having a pro (one you trust not to just try to "cowboy" it out of her) come in for a session or two could really help you figure out what the issue is and how best to go about fixing it = )

Dune
Sep. 25, 2009, 11:53 AM
How much turnout does she get daily and does she "use" it? A bit a of walk/trot everyday is not going to get her "exercised/exorcised" (lol) enough. With mine a judiciously used wet saddle pad is a GOOD thing for the sillies. :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN
Sep. 25, 2009, 12:04 PM
[QUOTE=butlerfamilyzoo;4399541]T- interesting that you say that because for whatever reason, its not something that i do very often with her at all at her stage in training, but i started sitting her trot the past couple rides and she isnt as bad! I hadnt really made that connection until you mentioned that, and really dont know why i even started sitting her trot except to maybe stay in the saddle more rather than her be silly while i'm in the air and not as securely "stuck." :D


very often green horses require a dead quiet seat...and I mean dead quiet...it's pretty rare that I will even post a trot on a very green horse of any kind while starting them across country...(and I don't mean the sport I mean in my 1400 acre of riding land)

I will however stand in my stirrups like a jockey in the trot and get some mane or even a neck strap from an old stirrup (I ain't proud) and off we'll go....a few strides of no drama and I'll ask for the walk...and then sit again...

now I've never had anyone famous every tell me to do this but at the trot across real ground misunderstandings can occur with the best seated riders...

once I have some balance and muscle and coordination under me from my horse,we can then try to post, so long as it does no interfere with the horses mojo and gets me put off 3 miles from home;)

every gait requires a different thing from a horse...and all the lunging in the world will not teach a horse to balance a rider above him...and once the horse can balance you better they do not take such offense to the inadvertent leg bump...

best

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 25, 2009, 12:08 PM
Bort - Good ideas. I dont think my instructor would handle her well, she's told me before that if she had to ride that canter she would have to pop some pills and drink a bottle of wine... :) Not that they have to canter, but the trot can be equally hair raising if Miss Princess deems it so...

She's on 24-7 turn-out on 13 acres with her "Lady in waiting" that they frequently blast around a few times a day.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 25, 2009, 12:13 PM
Oh, so sorry! Boy, they can have very long memories, can't they? My boy never forgets an injustice!!

If you have established a good bond with her, I think it can be done, with time.

Equibrit
Sep. 25, 2009, 12:19 PM
Take her in the ring and do something completely different, like ground driving, lunging etc. Ease her back in to her comfort zone. Drive her around/over/through obstacles and in different figures and PRAISE her when she does well. She'll gradually get her confidence back.
I let a friend ride one of my guys (17h Holst with a REALLY GOOD sense of humour). I hadn't realized that this friend was an NH fan. They were in the ring with me and another horse. She rode by me, between us and the rail, the Holst looked over his shoulder at me (I swear he rolled his eyes), turned hard left, dropped his shoulder, and spat the rider off in front of me ! That was the end of her !

Trevelyan96
Sep. 25, 2009, 01:43 PM
I never had that happen, but we did have a horse come to the barn that all the jumps in the ring were evil monsters. He spend the first week spooking every five seconds and just being an absolute terror. My instructor at the time decided to leave him in the ring overnight. The next day and from then on he was great with everything.

You might want to try just turning her out in the ring to let her sort it out herself. He was turned out by himself in the ring, not sure if that would help.


Amazing how well this theory can work. A firend has a totally crazy spooky OTTB. He went through a fence over her DD's hoola hoop. She left it in the corner of the barn overnight, by next morning he was playing with it, and even became possesive of it to the point where he'd pin his ears and grab it away from anyone who picked it up! :no:

Can you turn her loose in the ring just for a 1/2 hour or so. Carry your tack in there with you but don't tack her up at first. Just take her in there and then keep her moving around to every corner of the ring. Don't chase her... just follow her quietly. When she seems calm, put a longe line on her and get her moving again the same way. Not circling her on the longe line, but keeping her moving forward with you at the end of the line 5-6 feet away all the way around the ring in both directions. When she's quiet and paying attention to you, do it again in full tack.

Its almost like starting her over again. You're teaching her that she's in the ring to work and pay attention to you instead of her imaginary monsters in the ring and reassuring her at the same time that the monsters aren't there anyway. The most important thing is that you keep her calm at all times, so no chasing. If she won't move forward quietly and calmly when you're 5-6 feet away from her, move in closer and ask her to calmly walk 'with' you, but keep her along the rail at all times.

BEARCAT
Sep. 25, 2009, 01:51 PM
I think you are carrying waaay too much baggage with that horse!
(And it's easy to do when it's our own...)
Start with a clean slate.
Imagine the horse just came in for training, you know nothing about her, and act accordingly. If it's a fear issue, you need to deal with that. Could very well be she has been "hiding it" because of the fact she has gained trust in you.
You should actually count your blessings that the mare has shown you her true nature. Now you can fix it.
What would have happened if that had been a little niece or nephew up there, because you thought said mare was trustworthy?

And I'm sorry, but that does not sound like "the extent of her spook." Face it, she did take off afterwards!
I see lots of issues here.

"Then my silly mare decided to see a shadow and spook in place by dropping her butt about 6" in her trot. It is an odd feeling to have the hind end disapear, but that is the extent of her spooks... My friend gripped when it happened and that was the end. My mare took off in an extended trot (a VERY powerful extended trot that you never expect out of 13.3h,

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 25, 2009, 02:22 PM
Bearcat- The only thing i can really tell you is to ride a cob. She did spook, it startled her rider who gripped and TOLD her to trot faster. If you havent ridden the extended trot on a cob it is NOT like that of a warmblood, not even a GP warmblood. Its a thing of its own with so much power it can scare the daylights out of you if you arent ready for it. This rider wasnt ready for it.

Threw this incident the horse did as she was asked until she ran out of room and had to stop. If the darn rider would have asked her to stop the moment she spooked, we wouldnt be here today, but she didnt. Or if she had sat it out and been calm about it, we wouldnt be here today either. It was my fault for putting that rider on her, and i would NEVER put a beginner or intermediate rider on her and an oustanding no to any child. Is she trustworthy? She's a green 5yr old. My friend is in her 50s and has been riding most her life, showing morgans at the national level. I've seen her ride. She is no beginner. But she was not prepared for the power of this pony.

So did she "take off afterwords?" Nope, she was told to trot faster by a rider squeezing her guts out. To a very light sided mare, i'm impressed she didnt gallop off and limited herself to a big trot. Did the rider crank her face in? Yes. But that is not my mare's whoa button. I do not ride my horses face. The rider's rear never touched the saddle again, never said half halt to check her, never applied seat to say just plain WHOA, so the mare continued to go forward as she was being asked to do by rider's legs.

It sucks it happened to a horse like her, who as the other two cob owners have posted here, will remember for a long time. To any other horse, it may seem like something totally stupid to be upset about, but not to her.

Am i making excuses for her? no. We are still out there working. I'm frustrated about it, sure. But i dont see how i'm carrying baggage around about her. Meet a cob, my guess is you wont like them. :) But for me, she's perfect, even with a screw loose... :)

and again, i cant turn her loose in my ring. The arena sides are only 18" tall, it is not "enclosed" like some people's rings, its a dressage ring.

buck22
Sep. 25, 2009, 02:25 PM
if I were in your shoes (and have been) I would be trying some approach and retreat with relaxation while near the booger, and hard work while away. Same tactic I'll use on buddy sour or barn sour.

ride into the ring and mosey the best you can. In your relaxed wandering around, identify the zones that make her most upset, find the boundary lines of where she doesn't want to go. Don't push her into those zones. Instead, work outside of them. Do focused but easy work that she can do but has to think about a bit, near constant changing of directions, keep the feet very active but under control at all times.

Then start riding up close to the edge of the booger zone, but then turning her away before she decides she doesn't want to go there. The key is you guiding her away before she decides on her own. Keep working and playing around the edges of the zone, going towards, then turning quickly yet smoothly away just before she decides she might react. This is approach and retreat, and the game is to get as close as possible to the booger without having her react negatively. If you pilot her away before she gets a chance to get upset, she will come to trust that you're not going to push her before she's ready, and that will relax her.

The second part is making the booger zone the relaxing mosey area, and the rest of the arena the 'work zone'.

As you come to the edges of the booger zone, slow down your riding and ask for a nice loopy rein walk, as you veer away from the zone, get back to focused intense work. Every time you turn towards the booger zone, relax the riding, everytime you turn away, resume hard work. This is the second thing she will be able to learn from you, not only will she not be pushed to the scary area, but should she choose to go in that direction she will be allowed to relax.

As you two get the game more solid, start offering her opportunities to walk into the zone if she would like, make the choice available to her, but don't make her. Should she choose to walk calmly into the booger zone, she can stand and relax and hang out, should she not thats fine, back to work.

I've had good success using approach and retreat coupled with making the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.

I hope some of this is of some use to you. good luck.

katarine
Sep. 25, 2009, 02:38 PM
I like Buck22's post: There IS something to be said for your body language and breathing does need to say hey girlie, all is well....while your riding choices, gait, speed, etc...need to acknowledge 'that' area of the arena worries her....so be it.

Best wishes smoothing it out. It'll happen, you have time.

Donkey
Sep. 25, 2009, 03:21 PM
If she's still quite green try going back to the basics and teach her that it's OK when a rider becomes unbalanced. Flop around on her back, lean off the side etc. Show her again repeatedly that the world isn't going to end.

I don't know how many rides your horse has under her belt but I think that a green horse (especially one that is sensitive and tense) with limited experience will be scared by an experience like you described. But if your horse had another 6 months or a year of experience it wouldn't be such a big deal. Maybe she's being supper sensitive to your changing weight distribution when riding in the ring and holding her breath for it to happen again.

Bottom line, someone was going to fall off sometime, don't beat yourself up so much for it. Teach her that riders can become unbalanced so it isn't so scary for her next time it happens.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Sep. 25, 2009, 06:46 PM
I'd just say start working her through it, lots of circles, bending, keeping her very busy. I have a TB that just gets ridiculously hung up on things, and I just need to get in "I am boss" mode with him. Gently, of course, but not leaving him an option to wiggle out. As soon as the head goes up and the neck gets stiff, send her forward with your inside leg, take the inside rein wider while wiggeling to keep it soft (and give it back to her as soon as she gives), and circle. Ask her to cross over with her inside hind to really engage her body. If the shoulder bulges out ready for a spook, tap,tap with the whip on the shoulder as a reminder to keep it where it belongs. $hit happens with horses and a horse has to learn/be able to take a mistake. Don't feel sorry for her and blame your friend, just get on with it :D

rodawn
Sep. 25, 2009, 06:49 PM
GO BACK TO YOUR BASICS and stay there.



The last ride, the spot where the cougar initially attacked, we just kept doing walking circles and whoa. She does respond well to whoa (had my friend have simply whispered that word, she would have stopped dead). She was tense, and heaven forbid i do more than THINK walk when leaving the whoa as lightning strikes should I move a muscle...

This is good. Think and it shall be. This is the law of the horse. You are inevitably being taught the finest points of riding by your mare. This is how the elite riders ride. They think it and it is so. How else do they appear to be in such sync with their horses? Because they are unified in mind and body.

This is a good thing to learn. While doing all your basics, continue with this mental trend but direct the "energy" if-you-will, to start at YOUR mind and transfer to HER mind, via your body (seat in the saddle), your legs and lastly, your hands.



I've also been trying to ride her on very light rein contact, i know my friend cranked her nose to her chest, so everything i've done is to push the nose out and keep light as possible. Not floppy reins, but very light. A bit difficult when every few strides one hind leg sinks and you rocket launch forward and have to get her to come back to you again...

But good point, i'll stick with the sitting trot, maybe add some trot whoa transitions, she likes those, or at least did.

Persistence, practice, patience.

This is absolutely the correct way to go. But instead of doing trot to halt, back down a step here and go from trot to walk to trot to walk to trot to walk. Transitions from trot to walk and back again will cool a hot horse, and sharpen a dull one. All the while, maintain your correct seat and pay particular attention to correct aids with plenty of warning via half-halts. Half-halts are the "here's the memo, horse, something's about to change".

Just go around and around and around in light contact. Start at the beginning and follow the classic training scale:

Rhythm.
Suppleness.
Contact.
Impulsion.
Straightness.
Collection.

Your friend made a mistake - her efforts at tucking your horse's nose to her chest was her very misguided attempt at collection. This was actually the beginning of rattling your mare, not the shadow that set off the spook. What your friend needs to learn is, collection comes from behind, over the back through the contact. You can't have collection without contact. But is not to learn it on your horse.

Your mare cannot have contact until she has rhythm.

When she develops her rhythm back, she will develop looseness/suppleness and automatically reach for contact.

Keep yourself situated correctly in the saddle, balanced and correct, and ride through the squeaks, the squirks, the lurches. In your brain, you think - Forward. Calm. Quiet. Peace. Steady as she goes.

By riding through the lurches, I mean, ignore them. Don't draw attention to them. Just keep riding through it like nothing is happening. The more peaceful you are in your seat through the lurches, sinking and semi-lunging, the better she will start to feel and the more confident she will start to become. You ride around and around like it's a normal sunny day and no care in the world. Your whole goal and purpose is for her to achieve rhythm. At first it will come with 3 strides, accompanied by a lurch. Then it will be 5 strides. Then 10 strides. Then half way around. Then once all the way around. Then she might back track - expect this - and you go back to lurching every couple strides again. You stay nonplussed with this. Then, she'll go back to going happily all the way around the arena for minutes at a time without a single lurch. Hurray!



I'm guessing she was bumped on the left side of her if thats what happened, her lateral work while going to the left is nuts, i cant touch her with my left leg. I also have found that i cant cluck to cue, which is a bad habit anyway, so maybe she will cure that for me... But that also gets her riled up. I dont remember any clucking when it happened, so i dont know why thats an issue either.

...thinking good grief, how could all that happen from a fairly non eventful fall! If i could only go back in time!

Sorry to disagree with ya hun, but this wasn't a "fairly uneventful fall."

This was a prolonged, erratic, floppy, not-pretty-to-watch kind of fall. The kind of fall that can really rattle some horses, especially if they've never experienced a rider tumbling off them before. The horse knows, hey, you're supposed to be up there, not down THERE! YEEEOOOWW!

Your horse would have heard your friend squeak, gasp, mutter, groan, mumble, whatever, that you would not have heard.

So, start from the basics. Go all the way back. Touch her, talk to her, desensitize her again. Start doing this from the ground and (have a buddy with you) when you take it to the next step under saddle.

In fact, before you do what I mentioned at the top, start here with what I mentioned at the bottom of the post.

In all things, your facial expression must be controlled, as well as your voice - always quiet, calm, relaxed, nonplussed, never annoyed. If you're having a bad day, don't bother trying to work with her because she'll sense it. No matter what happens, close your mouth, turn off the vocal cords. Stop clucking - Terrible habit and accomplishes little.

She'll come back. She needs some time. You need to be consistent.

I rode a horse for a client - he had been ridden heavily and hard by a rider who should have known better. Between the spurring and the whipping supposedly to get the horse forward into contact and throughness, the horse was left with bruises and loss of hair by the spurs and some welts by the stinging whip.

So, I got on the most tense, upset horse that I've sat on for a good while. I gently touched his side asking for walk and got a bolt clear across the arena. You sit on a horse like this and expect anything to happen - you prepare for EVERYTHING but hope for the best. What did I do? Nothing. I let him bolt. Then I turned him wide in big wide circle and let him work out his anger. When he realized I wasn't going to squash him into a ball, and spur him and whip him, he went down to a very bumpy, tense, erratic, zig-zagging trot. Very hard to sit centered on a horse like this, but you do your best. You stay calm. You stay relaxed (because that's the only way your body can respond as needed) and you RIDE IT THROUGH. The first session, my goal was to get a 4-beat walk. It took 35 minutes. He minced, pranced, danced, scooted, squinged, squirked, squealed, bucked, reared, zagged and zigged, and lathered himself up, but I sat quiet. Never said a word. Never pulled his mouth. Never touched my heels. Just waited. And then as suddenly as it started, it was over. He walked. We walked for 2 minutes and I hopped off and told him what a good boy he was and put him away. The next day, I touched him with my heels and scooted into a trot, head high, back arched, bumpy, but I rode him through. And let him trot. Then, suddenly, his head came down. His back started to swing. It took 15 minutes. Then, I asked him lightly for a walk and he walked. Then I got off and put him away. The third day, I asked for a walk. He walked. He was happy. He was light. He reached for the reins. We asked for trot. He was happy. He asked for contact. I asked him for a canter. He reached for contact. He wasn't coming through, but I did NOT CARE! He was asking for CONTACT!!

This was an 11-year-old gelding who had been properly started and schooled from 3 years of age on up. He went through ONE BAD RIDE and reacted like this. After 3 weeks, he was happy, with contact, swing, suppleness, looseness. And he was coming through from behind and beginning some light collection. I never once rode with a whip or spur. Why? He was happy to try for me and I was happy he was willing to meet me half way.

Give your mare a bit of understanding. She's a bit green still and not a lot of experiences to draw onto yet so this kinda rocked her socks off. She'll come around.

slc2
Sep. 25, 2009, 07:34 PM
I think you have to get control of your own nerves, and the horse will too. A cob is no different from any other horse; it picks up on the rider's anxiety. Relax.

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 25, 2009, 08:26 PM
Rodawn - Thank you, that was a great post.

I worked her all over the place tonight, trotted circles around the pecan trees, i have rows and rows of them, so we leg yielded in and out, we played at the walk with leg yields and shoulder ins, then bravely turned into the ring and did a slow trot with no contact, dead head western jog more like it, jogged right out and went back to playing around the trees.

For the most part, she did really well. However, i had some stupid squirrels playing in the bushes by A that i would like to shoot.

My other mare doesnt have this issue, but we did the same thing today. I ended up having some lovely canter work out of her in the ring and then worked on our free walk, which is FAB on her, and of course, here i am on the buckle be popping along and the stupid squirrels got her too! She's a welsh A cross, so doesnt seem to have the sillies of the cobs. She was cool about it and i ignored it, life went on. But i do need something to sick on those squirrels... GRRR.

Have to disagree slc2, cobs are a little... "special." :)

slc2
Sep. 25, 2009, 08:35 PM
I think that's how you justify yiour irrational fear now, and getting your horse tense - 'cobs are different'.

BaroquePony
Sep. 25, 2009, 08:45 PM
Every time I see a thread that involves a COB I know I'm in for a good laugh or two or more ...

Yes, at a clinic I let an "I" judge who was also the President of the California Dressage Society get on my off-the-track thoroughbred that I was reschooling and getting ready for training/first level ... long story/short he apologized for setting my work back by a year or more and told me I had made riding that horse look easy. I paid money for that ! And a friend of mine took a set of photos with me with this amazingly distressed and confused look on my face :yes:

Now, about your horse, er, hum, cob ...

Now that you have learned not to let anyone on your horse :lol: you will have to back up and start some things over. I would begin with riding her where she is calm and then edge over to the arena ..

buck22's advice is good.

While I do agree that a cob is just like any other horse in general, it is also very true that different breeds have some very basic differences and they are best started keeping that in mind.

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 25, 2009, 09:15 PM
Just for you slc2...

My crazy cob that i'm scared of with myself riding...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/butlerfamilyzoo/Parrie%20Haynes%20State%20Park/101_1707.jpg?t=1253926913

I will admit that i do not like her canter, its crazy stupid fast and she cant find herself yet or get it balanced. It will rattle anyone's brains a bit, and due to saddle fit issues, it really hasnt been touched. But new saddle is here and i'm hoping to get to it again one day when we overcome this new issue.

slc i know you like to argue, :D but i'll stick to my guns, cobs are a different breed, and i've worked with many, as i'm sure you have.

It is my fault at dragging this on for 2 months, i have NOT been able to be consistent with my husband's work schedule. While i would love to have the issue gone in 3 weeks, i doubt it will happen, i just dont get to ride that much and i cant beat myself up about it. I've got an 11 month old who sucks up a lot of time and i wont ride without someone here. I have no intentions of really competing this mare for a few years yet. We just go to schooling shows for the fun of it and do the best we can with the time i have to work with. I wish i could go back to riding 6 days a week and show rated shows a couple times a month, but those days are gone for a while!

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. More so, i just needed some moral support that my good girl is still lurking in there and will come back one of these days. I miss her. :(

exvet
Sep. 25, 2009, 10:13 PM
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. More so, i just needed some moral support that my good girl is still lurking in there and will come back one of these days. I miss her.

I promise that she is still in there. So since we have no real options for the arena................and I agree with everyone else that stated you must take her back to the basics.......................how's your singing? Look I had a bolter, solid bolter, who the more you would grip, the least little bit of fear or even tenseness he would sense then he'd take off and go faster and faster but no bucking, no attempts to unload, just a ninny really. He would look for any sense of lack of leadership. He is actually very good now but he will revert back to his not so humble beginnings if someone doesn't realize that you must ride him with no pressure, no concerns, no fears. Singing actually works whether it's because the rider is calmer or because he likes off key tunes, doesn't matter. Point being is that you have to not only be the leader, in control, you must be totally calm. Tough to do when you have a little sh!t like my section C who has dumped me three times; but, we're a year down the road and he's still improving and doing so much better - still a 3 steps forward two steps back sort of thing but improvement none the less.

As for the canter...............hey I'm going to send you some video of before and after. I think you better than anyone else will appreciate it. Send me your email ;) and after the schooling show this Sunday I'll have it ready to send to you. We can discuss similarities afterwards.

SLC I know your the goddess of goddesses to the dressage world. I remember when you were looking at a particular welsh cob stallion and passed so you're obviously very knowledgeable of the breed and have far superior experience to mine. Let's just say that they are extremely smart, pony smart, and have more power than most horses people ride. Put that together in one package and you can either have a winning combination or a powder keg. Now if ALL horses are like that well then you remain the Goddess of all goddesses who frequent here.

Oh and butlerfamilyzoo I just got a saddle in on trial. Plan to get out there tonight and see how it goes. Will let you know if I have another one that works with those cobs that are like every other horse out there ya know :winkgrin:

BaroquePony
Sep. 26, 2009, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by exvet:

Let's just say that they are extremely smart, pony smart, and have more power than most horses people ride. Put that together in one package and you can either have a winning combination or a powder keg.

I think the Cob is a very unique breed. Probably the most unique set of genetic traits bred into an equine that I've ever seen.

The only experince that I have with a Cob is with the one I just bought, Maxwell. While he does fit many of the rumors, both good and 'bad', that I had heard about Cobs before I bought him, I still am absolutley blown away by how unusual he is and the breed itself is.

A 14.1 1/2 hh pony with the stride of a 17.2 hh athletic horse and that can go from 0 to Mach 1 in a heartbeat if scared. It is not the same as being either on a normal 14.1 1/2 hh pony or a 17.2 hh horse. The physics are quite different.

Max can be quite 'hot', a Drama Queen and extremely stubborn all at the same time. I'd be an idiot not to be afraid of this horse at certain times. However, as long as I don't do anything stupid ... like try to force him into something that he is resisting strongly (like a difficult creek crossing) ... Max will think it through like a thoroughbred and then do it as soon as he can muster up the courage .... I'll ask and then wait and then he does it on his own when he's calmed down a bit ... and he takes great pride in doing things that he was originally afraid of.

The more things we do calmly, the more things he is willing to do without questioning.

cameo976
Sep. 26, 2009, 12:15 AM
I'm guessing she was bumped on the left side of her if thats what happened, her lateral work while going to the left is nuts, i cant touch her with my left leg. I also have found that i cant cluck to cue, which is a bad habit anyway, so maybe she will cure that for me... But that also gets her riled up. I dont remember any clucking when it happened, so i dont know why thats an issue either.

I'm not going to pretend I'm a cob expert - I'm not. In fact, I'm not an expert at all, at anything.

But, what you've said here is what worried me more than her being scared in the 'spooky' spot of the arena. "i can't touch her with my left leg" - this needs to be fixed. Go to your instructor and get some lessons. Does she just run away from your leg? Put your leg on and make her WOAH. Then put your leg on more and make her shift.

Get some help from someone on the ground, a trainer, who can be there to tell you what to do and how to do it.

It's been two months and she's still scared, so obviously what your doing it's fixing the issue, or not at the speed that you'd like it fixed - find someone who can help you help her.

meupatdoes
Sep. 26, 2009, 01:26 AM
I think it is time to get on the horse and quietly and matter of factly expect her to get over herself.

If you can't touch her with your left leg, put your left leg on and keep it there until she stops throwing a tanty. Maintain zen like calm and tell her, "Sorry bout your bad luck." Leg stays until she gets over it.

If she says, 'But, but, I'm a COB!"
you say, 'But, but, I'm the HUMAN. Hop to it."

exvet
Sep. 26, 2009, 02:26 AM
The only experince that I have with a Cob is with the one I just bought, Maxwell. While he does fit many of the rumors, both good and 'bad', that I had heard about Cobs before I bought him, I still am absolutley blown away by how unusual he is and the breed itself is.

A 14.1 1/2 hh pony with the stride of a 17.2 hh athletic horse and that can go from 0 to Mach 1 in a heartbeat if scared. It is not the same as being either on a normal 14.1 1/2 hh pony or a 17.2 hh horse. The physics are quite different.

Max can be quite 'hot', a Drama Queen and extremely stubborn all at the same time. I'd be an idiot not to be afraid of this horse at certain times. However, as long as I don't do anything stupid ... like try to force him into something that he is resisting strongly (like a difficult creek crossing) ... Max will think it through like a thoroughbred and then do it as soon as he can muster up the courage .... I'll ask and then wait and then he does it on his own when he's calmed down a bit ... and he takes great pride in doing things that he was originally afraid of.


Yup by gawd even if the pictures and pedigree didn't prove it, you certainly bought yerself a true welsh cob :winkgrin:

I can give you that description in the flesh, oh, at least 11 times over (well and then some); so even if your study is n=1 it is apparent that you've got it down ;).

Now consider that Bulterfamilyzoo has the real deal PLUS she's a mare...............my best of the best welsh cobs was/is a mare............but the drama queen title takes on a whole new meaning.

Remaining CALM is the key. Not reacting except to continue to give the correct aids and keep asking and saying to yourself that "it doesn't matter". If the drama becomes too much even at a walk then it's necessary to move on to something else for a few minutes and then come back to it. You will never "make" a cob do something it doesn't want to do. You can present the situation such that a cob decides it wants to do it or is at least willing to give it a try. With each small victory, you can move forward and build on each step. Go too fast and you will undo everything you've accomplished. As I said you can train her to get beyond the issue but you will not erase the past (can't unlearn a welsh cob). Of course there are those far more accomplished than I who may see it differently. From the description of your trainer/riding instructor I would NOT have her get on. The biggest problems I've been presented have been those welsh cobs who were ridden by dressage pros who were convinced that it was just a stubborn pony who could be told "you will do this".......................Yup...................had a trainer get on to show me how and in three strides the cob reared, bucked and then she got off and handed me the reins and told me to fix it 'cause she didn't feel like coming off that day :mad: Fix it I did but learned and have since been reminded that putting ANYONE on a welsh cob with that type of mindset is only going to make matters worse. Someone with tact has to work through the issue. Now don't get me wrong I've also had a couple of pros get on and do just fine when trying to "show me how" but the mindset was definitely not going to provoke a fight. Don't forget to reward and make a big fuss with each positive outcome. Welsh cobs have ego. I'm sure I'm going to get slammed for saying that but butlerfamilyzoo will know exactly what I mean and why. I've ridden other breeds/horses that are similar in "mind" but lacking the power. It's the combination one must never forget and the same is what will give you that winning edge ;)

I think it is time to get on the horse and quietly and matter of factly expect her to get over herself.

If you can't touch her with your left leg, put your left leg on and keep it there until she stops throwing a tanty. Maintain zen like calm and tell her, "Sorry bout your bad luck." Leg stays until she gets over it.

If she says, 'But, but, I'm a COB!"
you say, 'But, but, I'm the HUMAN. Hop to it."

Right idea except the "I'm the HUMAN" part. She is a cob and you're the leader, the trusted one, the one who will not let her put a foot wrong or get hurt. Prove to a cob that you are the leader, the one they want to follow, without being the dominatrix and they will give you the world.

Now let thomas get on here and tell me I'm full of sh!t; but, that too is to be expected.

goeslikestink
Sep. 26, 2009, 04:42 AM
GO BACK TO YOUR BASICS and stay there.



This is good. Think and it shall be. This is the law of the horse. You are inevitably being taught the finest points of riding by your mare. This is how the elite riders ride. They think it and it is so. How else do they appear to be in such sync with their horses? Because they are unified in mind and body.

This is a good thing to learn. While doing all your basics, continue with this mental trend but direct the "energy" if-you-will, to start at YOUR mind and transfer to HER mind, via your body (seat in the saddle), your legs and lastly, your hands.



Persistence, practice, patience.

This is absolutely the correct way to go. But instead of doing trot to halt, back down a step here and go from trot to walk to trot to walk to trot to walk. Transitions from trot to walk and back again will cool a hot horse, and sharpen a dull one. All the while, maintain your correct seat and pay particular attention to correct aids with plenty of warning via half-halts. Half-halts are the "here's the memo, horse, something's about to change".

Just go around and around and around in light contact. Start at the beginning and follow the classic training scale:

Rhythm.
Suppleness.
Contact.
Impulsion.
Straightness.
Collection.

Your friend made a mistake - her efforts at tucking your horse's nose to her chest was her very misguided attempt at collection. This was actually the beginning of rattling your mare, not the shadow that set off the spook. What your friend needs to learn is, collection comes from behind, over the back through the contact. You can't have collection without contact. But is not to learn it on your horse.

Your mare cannot have contact until she has rhythm.

When she develops her rhythm back, she will develop looseness/suppleness and automatically reach for contact.

Keep yourself situated correctly in the saddle, balanced and correct, and ride through the squeaks, the squirks, the lurches. In your brain, you think - Forward. Calm. Quiet. Peace. Steady as she goes.

By riding through the lurches, I mean, ignore them. Don't draw attention to them. Just keep riding through it like nothing is happening. The more peaceful you are in your seat through the lurches, sinking and semi-lunging, the better she will start to feel and the more confident she will start to become. You ride around and around like it's a normal sunny day and no care in the world. Your whole goal and purpose is for her to achieve rhythm. At first it will come with 3 strides, accompanied by a lurch. Then it will be 5 strides. Then 10 strides. Then half way around. Then once all the way around. Then she might back track - expect this - and you go back to lurching every couple strides again. You stay nonplussed with this. Then, she'll go back to going happily all the way around the arena for minutes at a time without a single lurch. Hurray!



Sorry to disagree with ya hun, but this wasn't a "fairly uneventful fall."

This was a prolonged, erratic, floppy, not-pretty-to-watch kind of fall. The kind of fall that can really rattle some horses, especially if they've never experienced a rider tumbling off them before. The horse knows, hey, you're supposed to be up there, not down THERE! YEEEOOOWW!

Your horse would have heard your friend squeak, gasp, mutter, groan, mumble, whatever, that you would not have heard.

So, start from the basics. Go all the way back. Touch her, talk to her, desensitize her again. Start doing this from the ground and (have a buddy with you) when you take it to the next step under saddle.

In fact, before you do what I mentioned at the top, start here with what I mentioned at the bottom of the post.

In all things, your facial expression must be controlled, as well as your voice - always quiet, calm, relaxed, nonplussed, never annoyed. If you're having a bad day, don't bother trying to work with her because she'll sense it. No matter what happens, close your mouth, turn off the vocal cords. Stop clucking - Terrible habit and accomplishes little.

She'll come back. She needs some time. You need to be consistent.

I rode a horse for a client - he had been ridden heavily and hard by a rider who should have known better. Between the spurring and the whipping supposedly to get the horse forward into contact and throughness, the horse was left with bruises and loss of hair by the spurs and some welts by the stinging whip.

So, I got on the most tense, upset horse that I've sat on for a good while. I gently touched his side asking for walk and got a bolt clear across the arena. You sit on a horse like this and expect anything to happen - you prepare for EVERYTHING but hope for the best. What did I do? Nothing. I let him bolt. Then I turned him wide in big wide circle and let him work out his anger. When he realized I wasn't going to squash him into a ball, and spur him and whip him, he went down to a very bumpy, tense, erratic, zig-zagging trot. Very hard to sit centered on a horse like this, but you do your best. You stay calm. You stay relaxed (because that's the only way your body can respond as needed) and you RIDE IT THROUGH. The first session, my goal was to get a 4-beat walk. It took 35 minutes. He minced, pranced, danced, scooted, squinged, squirked, squealed, bucked, reared, zagged and zigged, and lathered himself up, but I sat quiet. Never said a word. Never pulled his mouth. Never touched my heels. Just waited. And then as suddenly as it started, it was over. He walked. We walked for 2 minutes and I hopped off and told him what a good boy he was and put him away. The next day, I touched him with my heels and scooted into a trot, head high, back arched, bumpy, but I rode him through. And let him trot. Then, suddenly, his head came down. His back started to swing. It took 15 minutes. Then, I asked him lightly for a walk and he walked. Then I got off and put him away. The third day, I asked for a walk. He walked. He was happy. He was light. He reached for the reins. We asked for trot. He was happy. He asked for contact. I asked him for a canter. He reached for contact. He wasn't coming through, but I did NOT CARE! He was asking for CONTACT!!

This was an 11-year-old gelding who had been properly started and schooled from 3 years of age on up. He went through ONE BAD RIDE and reacted like this. After 3 weeks, he was happy, with contact, swing, suppleness, looseness. And he was coming through from behind and beginning some light collection. I never once rode with a whip or spur. Why? He was happy to try for me and I was happy he was willing to meet me half way.

Give your mare a bit of understanding. She's a bit green still and not a lot of experiences to draw onto yet so this kinda rocked her socks off. She'll come around.

agree go back to basics

Chall
Sep. 26, 2009, 08:26 AM
She dumped rider going to the left, and you cant touch her with your left leg.
Perhaps she has something going on physically which you accommodate (even subconsciously) but friend did not and your mare reacted.
I'd have a chiro or masseuse out and while I was at it check the vision in her left eye.
Just in case.

BaroquePony
Sep. 26, 2009, 09:01 AM
Agree that rodawn's post was great.

Also, it is never a bad idea to keep checking various possible physical issues as you go along.

Butlerfamilyzoo, since you are by yourself a lot right now and do not want to be riding alone without a safety back-up plan, can you make a deal with a friend or neighbor to call in before and after some rides? Or can you hire some teenager to come over and babysit for an hour or two so that you can get in some more riding time every day?

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 26, 2009, 09:02 AM
She spooked from something behind her, whatever imaginary beast it may have been, i dont know. She was by B when she spooked, she stopped at H facing the rail and rider came off her right side (was thrown right when she turned at the corner.)

She did clearly have a spook, one of her classic hind end vanished moments, so i dont think it was a chiro/massage issue. I'm not a real believer in massage, but i do love a good chiro and she is due. Its on my list.

She could have been more tense with my friend on her, i'm sure the movement took her off guard even though she's seen me ride her many times, its different to feel it. Kind of like riding a rocket waiting to hit the moon if you said the word.

We'll keep plugging away. I was pretty happy with her ride last night. Yes, we had tense moments and i cant kill all my squirrels, perhaps that is what spooked her that day, the bushes would have been behind her and they live in those bushes. I own a pecan orchard, its squirrel heaven.

exvet- me thinks my mare must have lived with you for a while. You know her well... :lol: When she first arrived to me, stepped off the trailer like a princess and hit the OK summer heat, the flies came at her from all sides, and she started pitching a fit... I thought, oh Lord, what did i do... Then i sprayed her with the fly spray mist of death and she threw herself on the ground and had a royal temper tantrum for TEN minutes, mind you, i was just standing there staring at her like she was from mars... I realized then she was "special."

exvet
Sep. 26, 2009, 09:20 AM
exvet- me thinks my mare must have lived with you for a while. You know her well... When she first arrived to me, stepped off the trailer like a princess and hit the OK summer heat, the flies came at her from all sides, and she started pitching a fit... I thought, oh Lord, what did i do... Then i sprayed her with the fly spray mist of death and she threw herself on the ground and had a royal temper tantrum for TEN minutes, mind you, i was just standing there staring at her like she was from mars... I realized then she was "special."


I'm laughing and trying to keep my diet coke off the keyboard. Actually that incident sounds much more like one of my Arabs. I do have one who doesn't like or stand for fly spray but give me a little more time......he will. Oh and he's one of her 1/2 brothers. The other sibling could care less. Yet they still are "special". My section C who came to me with a trunk load of issues didn't stand to be bathed at first but in less than a year is going through baths like a pro. I am also able to do a lot of things to him/with him that no one else could do. I am encouraged with his progress despite our setbacks. I'm sure it's going to be much the same for you and yours as long as you stay calm, firm but reasonable and take your time. Good luck.

slc2
Sep. 26, 2009, 10:42 AM
BFZ, you can sling all the personal insults at me you want and call me as many names as you can dream up. Saying this horse is 'a cob and they are SOOO different', STILL just doesn't mean this is some gigantic mountain of a problem that can't be dealt with, and it STILL doesn't mean you and your attitude and your nerves aren't something that influences the horse, or that by controlling YOUR emotions and focusing you can't fix this issue. And don't try to say I think I'm something special or better. I am JUST like everyone else and it's just as easy for me to make excuses and say, 'but my horse is HARDER, my horse is THIS, my horse is THAT'. EVERYONE does that because it's human nature. What is important is, one can SAY it, one just can't really BELIEVE it. As a professor told me in college, 'you can WRITE all the trashy books you want, just don't read 'em'

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 26, 2009, 10:43 AM
You know - maybe there is a physical issue as well - smacking my head here. These things can be subtle. And it's certainly worth checking out.

goeslikestink
Sep. 26, 2009, 03:26 PM
Bearcat- The only thing i can really tell you is to ride a cob. She did spook, it startled her rider who gripped and TOLD her to trot faster. If you havent ridden the extended trot on a cob it is NOT like that of a warmblood, not even a GP warmblood. Its a thing of its own with so much power it can scare the daylights out of you if you arent ready for it. This rider wasnt ready for it.

Threw this incident the horse did as she was asked until she ran out of room and had to stop. If the darn rider would have asked her to stop the moment she spooked, we wouldnt be here today, but she didnt. Or if she had sat it out and been calm about it, we wouldnt be here today either. It was my fault for putting that rider on her, and i would NEVER put a beginner or intermediate rider on her and an oustanding no to any child. Is she trustworthy? She's a green 5yr old. My friend is in her 50s and has been riding most her life, showing morgans at the national level. I've seen her ride. She is no beginner. But she was not prepared for the power of this pony.

So did she "take off afterwords?" Nope, she was told to trot faster by a rider squeezing her guts out. To a very light sided mare, i'm impressed she didnt gallop off and limited herself to a big trot. Did the rider crank her face in? Yes. But that is not my mare's whoa button. I do not ride my horses face. The rider's rear never touched the saddle again, never said half halt to check her, never applied seat to say just plain WHOA, so the mare continued to go forward as she was being asked to do by rider's legs.

It sucks it happened to a horse like her, who as the other two cob owners have posted here, will remember for a long time. To any other horse, it may seem like something totally stupid to be upset about, but not to her.

Am i making excuses for her? no. We are still out there working. I'm frustrated about it, sure. But i dont see how i'm carrying baggage around about her. Meet a cob, my guess is you wont like them. :) But for me, she's perfect, even with a screw loose... :)

and again, i cant turn her loose in my ring. The arena sides are only 18" tall, it is not "enclosed" like some people's rings, its a dressage ring.

matey that can happen on any horse, obviously the rider is heavy handed and harsh with the legs so pony took off at a high speed trot not unusual for a cob or cob type or any other type

ooh and i do own cobs as in welsh cobs - anways its not so much the horse has a problem as you have a problem meaning
your thinking to much into it ----- my 1st though in that sernerio would have been the person as a human is more important - and i hope shes ok obviously your horse is
but dont let any old bod ride as youthink theycan ride by what you see- but on a different neddy thats when you see the real riders caperablities or riding skills what shes like on her won as use them and how she rides them isnt always best on another and matey i wouldnt have let a perosn on the horse with heavy hands and harsh legs
at the end of the day you cant blame the horse as she did as she was told and went forwards -- fast and the rider didnt have a clue how to stop her -done now so forget it

now you - your afraid shes going to do the same thing she wont if you stop thinking about what happened as sub conciously your teling her to be fearful of the ring as shes picking up on your thought pattern

so stop thinking - its pass tense - forget it move on and then you and your horse can ride in the arena -
fear------- factors 1st is to flee 2nd to advade --dead simple

so-- take the horse in tack her up and do something with her in the areana put out trotting poles so she focused on them and work her as you normally would not only that you will focused on the trotting poles - clear your mind set your sights and get back into it

Tamara in TN
Sep. 26, 2009, 04:05 PM
SLC I know your the goddess of goddesses to the dressage world.

well I'm sending this (http://www.zoogstercostumes.com/products/cn234.html) back then...and the wig..it was my turn to be the goddess this weekend <pouts>

twofatponies
Sep. 26, 2009, 04:15 PM
.....
so-- take the horse in tack her up and do something with her in the areana put out trotting poles so she focused on them and work her as you normally would not only that you will focused on the trotting poles - clear your mind set your sights and get back into it

gls - that's a very smart idea. i'd forgotten I had an instructor do that once for me, and I did it once for my DH: when my old mare was deciding to spook at the open arena doors - I put three trot poles there so he and she would have to focus on the ground - worked like a charm!

BaroquePony
Sep. 26, 2009, 06:45 PM
Well, if it was my pony and I really wanted to get her back into that ring and working without a worry as quickly as possible, I would ....


1) take a bunch pf tubs and buckets out and turn them upside down and place them near some of the main letters (A, C, E, B, X etc.)

2) then I would put a few carrot slices or apple slices or maybe a half a handful of grain on top of each tub

3) then I would go get my pony on a lead rope and halter and walk her into the ring to the nearest tub or bucket

4) then I would let her eat what was on the first tub or bucket ...

5) then I would go to each of the other tubs or buckets and let her eat her way around the arena

That would be enough for one day ... too many treats will make your pony colic.

I would go back the next day riding and let her see the buckets and tubs with all new fresh treats.

Watch out for the unexpected extended trot to the next bucket or tub.

Good luck. It should work. It is a pony. They can smell food from a llloooong way off.

:lol:.

slc2
Sep. 26, 2009, 06:49 PM
Tamara, is that your usual riding outfit?

Cause it sure as h*** is mine.

When a horse is spooky in a ring, lead another very calm horse around, all the way around the ring. get a lot of horse smell all over the ring. Then right after, ride the other horse in the ring. An old trick.

goeslikestink
Sep. 26, 2009, 08:04 PM
Tamara, is that your usual riding outfit?

Cause it sure as h*** is mine.

When a horse is spooky in a ring, lead another very calm horse around, all the way around the ring. get a lot of horse smell all over the ring. Then right after, ride the other horse in the ring. An old trick.

urm no------- as you do not want a horse to be independant of another

this where you lack expreince of knowing what to do with a horse that has your no
or in this case a youngster thats had a bad rider on his back



if the horse is spooky then its almost down to rider not haveing th confident of riding the horse forwards and through the spook in other words you sit the trama and push it through it

you do not as another poster surgested putting sweeties out for the horse to eat on his way round that only rewards and encourages a bad bahaviour and make it ten times worse


when one breaks in and a schools horses as i do, like say a baby they often are spooky looky looky god if i let every baby i did look and spook it will be like and then nap for every and day and then the horse would be deemed a git as the naps or spooks or looky looky then move on to the bigger stuff of advasion like REAR


so dont ------ a horse learn from you if you confident the horse will be
if you sit and ignore the spook and treat it as a nothing ie going in the areana then the horse will

they can feel your vibes as thye have all there senses so clear your mine and just get down and ride the horse sit in and ride this is riding the horse between leg and hand and using an independant seat


i say again put trotting poles down in the middle of the school and then work the horse in
just getting there and then do loads of figures of 8 using the trot poles as the centre line
go large both ways and work the horse once settled then go large and lengten and shorten your strides using the half halt stride and if you can canter and the horse is settle then go large both ways make the pony bloody work he has less time to be naughty if hes pushed into working and then he on the bit and concentrating
go ride your horse op knuckle down and work dont give him time to think as when they think then you have given him the opportunity to be naughty

sit push go

matey op horses arnt like people they dont think of the future -- so get on him and ride him the more you do the better he will be

Tamara in TN
Sep. 26, 2009, 08:22 PM
[QUOTE=slc2;4402404]Tamara, is that your usual riding outfit?

well not on Thursdays...I prefer this (http://www.zoogstercostumes.com/products/cc00849.html) one then...but I don't need the wig...my own hair is about that long anyway...

BaroquePony
Sep. 26, 2009, 08:50 PM
goeslikestink, I was only joking on the bucket and treat idea.

Tamara, wow, I really like the Warrior Queen outfit :lol:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 26, 2009, 09:02 PM
well I'm sending this (http://www.zoogstercostumes.com/products/cn234.html) back then...and the wig..it was my turn to be the goddess this weekend <pouts>

Just remember, I had dibs on next weekend for like two months now. And I insist on being the only goddess that weekend!!! Or I will sic TROGDOR! on you.

And gls, trot poles are a GREAT idea!

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 26, 2009, 09:05 PM
[QUOTE]

well not on Thursdays...I prefer this (http://www.zoogstercostumes.com/products/cc00849.html) one then...but I don't need the wig...my own hair is about that long anyway...

Ouch the chafing!!!! :eek: :lol:

Today i was really wanting to work on my seat in my new saddle, so i popped the stirrups off and stuck to the half of my ring that i can use my mirrors the best, which happens to be where most of this incident happened. SO for all the "i'm too scared to ride my pony garbage" we went blasting around the ring trotting like crazies with no stirrups, i was looking at the mirrors and my body position every other stride, for strides at a time, not looking at the monsters she thought were there, or trying to guess where they might have been, i really didnt care. We spooked quite a few times, were very goosey off my left leg still, not flying away, she's not like that, more, i put my leg on very light and in 2 strides we leg yield from the 1/4 line to rail, i dont like it that fast personally, i prefer it to take about 4-5 strides to keep better rhythm, but whatever, i didnt really care what she did today so long as she was in front of my leg and staying in rhythm as best as possible, it was more to work on me. So it was interesting afterwords to think about the ride and the lack of attention i gave her and her issues and we still had the issues.

I LOVE the idea of putting the ground poles out. I'll have to drag them up to the ring tomorrow! I'm really excited about that. Thanks for bringing that up! :)

exvet- She does fly spray now, it took a lot of work. :) We dont do clippers still, cause i dont care what you tell her, they eat horses. Doesnt matter if she's tied and drugged, whatever she's tied to is getting moved as far away from those clippers as she can manage, including a hitch post set in concrete... :rolleyes: All i can do is laugh. I still love this mare. Her and I are so alike we could be twins. We click well.

We'll keep plugging along. I'm sure the ground poles will be interesting. We havent seen those for almost 2yrs... :eek:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 26, 2009, 09:08 PM
Let us know!!!

enjoytheride
Sep. 26, 2009, 11:12 PM
Gah, I think you need to tell her to stop being such a pansy. You too. There is no reason one ride where she spooked herself should affect her in this way for this long unless she's a few cards short of a deck. Get on, put her to work, keep her in work, and make her work. If you can't do it try having a pro out to put some rides on her. There is no such thing as a one person horse. Some horses may become used to their riders aids (however incorrect or correct) and may throw a hissy when someone different gets on but they can get over it.

You had fewer issues when you worked on you because you aren't anticpiating her doing something stupid and uncalled for and you're riding. Don't expect her to act like an idiot, put both your legs on, expect her to be a good horse, and ride like you mean it.

JackSprats Mom
Sep. 27, 2009, 06:40 PM
Am i making excuses for her? no. We are still out there working. I'm frustrated about it, sure. But i dont see how i'm carrying baggage around about her. Meet a cob, my guess is you wont like them

I have to agree with others, you ARE carrying baggage on this mare, you're repetition thats she so unique as she's a cob is proof (and yes I have ridden many cobs and Welsh cobs). While all breeds have some unique traits they are fundamentally HORSES.

Seriously, this mare has your number. Two months after a fall and she still won't go around the arena? If she's ultra touchy on one side have the vet/chiro look and if there's nothing then tell her to get over it.

BaroquePony
Sep. 27, 2009, 08:03 PM
they are fundamentally HORSES

Actually, they are ponies and ponies are a subspecies of Equus (think Darwin).

slc2
Sep. 27, 2009, 08:41 PM
What is a subspecies of horse is up for debate. Bennett maintains that there are/were 7 subspecies of horse. None of them are ponies.

Prezwalski's horse is usually referred to as a subspecies of horse, with the tarpan and the domestic horse making three subspecies.

Others give two subspecies of horses in N America. Most say there are only two subspecies in other parts of the world, Tarpan and P. horse. Domestic and wild horses are considered not to be separate subspecies. Nobody mentions ponies.

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:07 PM
She's only been ridden in the ring 5 times in the past 2 months since that incident... If i were working her out there every day for 2 months, or even 3 times a week, yes this would be to long to still be having issues... But 5 times in 2 months and still have an issue, in no way have i been consistent enough to "fix" the issue. If anyone took the time to read what i have written, my husband works a lot of hours and i dont ride at home alone. I have NOT been consistent and cant be. I do the best i can with the time i'm given, which lately has been no time at all to accomplish anything. I rode her 1 time 4 weeks after Nancy's fall, one ride 2 weeks ago, and then 3 here in a row (plus one day we just lunged) and i didnt get a chance to ride her today and probably wont get a chance all this week now.

I am thankful to those who offered some great ideas, i hope to use them. The others, feel free to berate me all ya want. I dont agree and wont. :) She is special, just like any horse out there, they are all special in their own silly ways. This one happens to be special in the typical welsh cob way. I'm sure not all cobs are this way, frankly, i havent seen her be this retarded in our 3yrs together, and no its nothing new for her to sit a few weeks and then be ridden, she isnt one of those hot types that cant handle that, she's always the same, except for her couple spooky spots in the ring right now.

I dont ride with my legs really ON this mare, they lay there, she is SUPER light, i generally shift my hips to leg yield, but she is super sensitive to the left leg moving right now, as mentioned. My instructor loves how light my two ponies are, i like that i dont have to work. :)

The pecans are getting to a point that the squirrels are in heaven, so perhaps it has to do with the increased activity up in the trees after them scavenging elsewhere the past 9 months... So perhaps that has her on edge and its not all about the fall but just a coincidence. Dont know. We didnt live here this time last year to see all this activity.

I do plan on having the chiro check her out, i just have to find one. I havent had one since we moved here a year ago from TX.

I dont know that my instructor would feel comfortable getting on her, i'm not sure i feel comfortable letting her if she's not 100% gung ho to do it as i dont think thats going to help issues either. I know no one i trust to send her away for 30 days.

Like i've said before, we'll keep plugging along as best we can. I'm really excited to try the ground poles, but just got too set back today to get to it. Maybe next weekend...

Unfortunately, not all of us are blessed with oodles of money and time to get done what we want to. :(

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:14 PM
For the OP - I bet your mare's got a fabulous memory, and for whatever reason, this made it into long term consolidation with no effort at all. I wonder if a pain issue might not have accelerated that? Worth thinking about? Because now you have to go back and re-establish a different mindset. Hope gls' idea of the trot poles work out...I can just picture it...you have a rolling piece of luggage, it looks empty, but it is filled with your angst, and you park it outside the arena as per Thomas' instructions...if nothing else, it will make your mare focus on something else!!

For those who are interested, from Wiki: Besides the horse, there are seven other species of genus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus) equus in the equidae family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family). These are the ass or donkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey), Equus asinus; the Mountain Zebra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Zebra), Equus zebra; Plains Zebra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plains_Zebra), Equus burchelli; Grévy's Zebra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A9vy%27s_Zebra), Equus grevyi; the Kiang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiang), Equus kiang; and the Kulan (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turkmenian_Kulan&action=edit&redlink=1), Equus hemionus, including its subspecies, the Onager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onager), Equus hemionus onager.[111] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#cite_note-110)

BaroquePony
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:22 PM
Prezwalski's horse is considered the only existing prehistoric horse (pre-equus) to my knowledge. I thought it was considered to be in a parallel Genuus to Equus ... not actually in the same Genus.

The Genus Equus contains the subspecies horse (not the correct latin nomenclature) and ponies (not the correct latin nomenclature) and some others (donkeys, zebras ...).

I am not going to go drag out all of my zoology books to get all of the Families, Genuus, Species and Subspecies jargon straight along with all of the latin names.

What I do believe to be true is that a pony is NOT a horse. A pony is to a horse what a zebra is to a horse or a donkey is to a horse.

exvet
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:26 PM
What I do beleive to be true is that a pony is NOT a horse. A pony is to a horse what a zebra is to a horse.

So if a welsh cob is neither pony nor horse what genus/species/subspecies does it fall into? Just sayin' :winkgrin: oh and askin' too :D

twofatponies
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:27 PM
Prezwalski's horse is considered the only existing prehistoric horse (pre-equus) to my knowledge. I thought it was considered to be in a parallel Genuus to Equus ... not actually in the same Genus.

The Genus Equus contains the subspecies horse (not the correct latin nomenclature) and ponies (not the correct latin nomenclature) and some others (donkeys, zebras ...).

I am not going to go drag out all of my zoology books to get all of the Families, Genuus, Species and Subspecies jargon straight along with all of the latin names.

What I do beleive to be true is that a pony is NOT a horse. A pony is to a horse what a zebra is to a horse or a donkey is to a horse.

No. When you cross a horse with another species, like zebra or donkey, the offspring is sterile (like a mule, for example) because the DNA doesn;t quite match up. You can cross breed horses and ponies of all types and just get a medium sized horse/pony with normal reproductive features.

BaroquePony
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:31 PM
Quoted from Wikipedia relative to th Evolution of Equidae (horse family):

This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Please improve this article if you can. (January 2009)

Some of what is up on Wikipedia is accurate, but I think there are some errors there.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:43 PM
Some of what is up on Wikipedia is accurate, but I think there are some errors there.

Yes, this is what scares me, as in our small groups my med students use Wiki all the time!!!

BaroquePony
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:43 PM
No. When you cross a horse with another species, like zebra or donkey, the offspring is sterile (like a mule, for example) because the DNA doesn;t quite match up. You can cross breed horses and ponies of all types and just get a medium sized horse/pony with normal reproductive features.

Wikipedia doesn't have it quite right.

But, you can cross a coyote with a domestic dog ... are those both in the same Genus and different in their Species OR are they both of the same Species and different in thier Subspecies? My guess is the later, but I don't think they are identical in skeletal traits. Now, DNA ... I thought there were a couple of areas where some differences could exist and they still could match up reproductively (not producing a hybrid). Like on the tail end of specific chromosomes or something like that.

That would be the difference between the pony and the horse.

A Welsh Cob is a pony (even if it is 15.3 hh). There are differences in their skeletons. Just like there are I believe five different types (can't remember the correct name) of homo sapien across the planet. They have some very distinctive skeletal differences even though they can interbreed.

slc2
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:46 PM
I wasn't using Wikipedia to check that, I was using Bruce J McFadden's Fossil Horses, which tends to stay right near my computer, and a couple similar sources. I think McFadden's book is very good. Bennett gives I think 7 subspecies, present/past, I mention her because people here seem to think she's always right - she mentions no pony subspecies as well.

I went on Wikipedia and checked as well since it was mentioned, and none of those articles suggest ponies are subspecies either. None of the other sources I check consider ponies a subspecies either.

So I see nothing that backs up your statement that ponies are considered to be a subspecies by any scientific group or individual. The term subspecies means something very specific, even if people tend to use the word as 'kind of a group sort of thing'. I have heard ponies called a 'breed group'. I don't see why ponies need to be a subspecies. To paraphrase a recent post, I think they'll be alright whether they are determined to be a subspecies or not.

BaroquePony
Sep. 27, 2009, 09:55 PM
Wikipedia doesn't even discuss Species, Subspecies or ponies. They discuss Genus and Subgenus relative to the Family of Equus. However, in one of their other lists relating to evolution they do show Family, Genus, Species in that order, so apparently Wikipedia doesn't even agree with itself.

BaroquePony
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:01 PM
So what exactly is a miniature horse, since most breeders will say, it is NOT a pony.

exvet
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:39 PM
So what exactly is a miniature horse, since most breeders will say, it is NOT a pony.

From my perspective, a practice builder :D

BaroquePony
Sep. 27, 2009, 10:52 PM
Ok exvet, I didn't get the "practice builder" thing.

Ponies that are over 14.2 still exhibit very distinctive "pony" traits just like horse that are under 14.2 exhibit horse traits (like some Quarter Horses and Arabs). Sooo, what the *blank* are they?

I was told that the Welsh Pony was the Arab of the pony world.

I have recently heard that the Welsh Cob is technically a Draft Pony (half horse and half pony), but it is considered a pony.

There are no Fjord Horses, no Welsh Horses and no Haflinger Horses even though all of them can reach over 14.2 hh.

They all supposedly exhibit a much greater bone density than the horse, as does the thoroughbred horse. And there are some other physical traits that distinguish them from the horses.

Anyone?

twofatponies
Sep. 27, 2009, 11:10 PM
Honestly my own opinion is it's mostly a cultural term. Is it not true that German didn't have a word for "pony"? They just called all of them horses, until recently where they now use the english word? I also read an old book (from the 1800s?) on Google books that talked about the "Arabian Pony" - they just meant regular Arabians. Because they were often small, they got put in the pony category, along with Mustangs, "Indian Ponies" and so forth.

And the height was set at least in part because Hackney classes were divided into two sizes at shows (again, in the 1800s) - at one point it was 14.0, then they changed it a couple times, eventually settling on 14.2.

You can't tell me the Icelandic is not a pony in the British sense of the word - a short, stocky, shaggy northern equine. But they like to call it a horse because "pony" gets associated with children.

That's my gut feeling on the matter, anyway! :D

exvet
Sep. 27, 2009, 11:31 PM
Ok exvet, I didn't get the "practice builder" thing.

They help to increase a veterinarian's income/revenue stream. :lol:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 27, 2009, 11:32 PM
Species differences..whatever. What IS clear is that breeding has selected for traits, and cobs obviously come under that heading. After all, a Pekinese and a Husky are the same species, can interbreed, and are very, very different.

And since horses have pretty phenomenal memories, and some even better than others, I suspect that whatever occurred to the OP's mare was sufficient to elicit a behavioral reaction. Since the OP was unable to work this out with her mare in a feasible time frame, now it's a "learned" behavior. Which can, of course, be reversed, but it's obviously going to take some effort.

So, good luck! Hope the suggestions on the board prove useful!

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 27, 2009, 11:33 PM
Ok exvet, I didn't get the "practice builder" thing.

They help to increase a veterinarian's income/revenue stream. :lol:

Whoops! I thought you meant, start small, try out the mini, then move into the pony, and finally wean yourself into a QH and lastly, a draft cross...like not jumping into the pool but dipping in slowly and getting used to the water..

BaroquePony
Sep. 27, 2009, 11:45 PM
I'm guessing that "sub-species" really is just a biological term for "breed" :yes:

Not to put down minis, but they seem to have some rather strange deformities, so yeah, defintaley would help in buying the vet a new truck.

The lipazzan seems to have some of the same mental/intelligence sensitivities as the Welsh Cob and so does the mule.

Not very forgiving.

egontoast
Sep. 28, 2009, 08:53 AM
Wow. You guys are still arguing about this?

4 ways to be a pony:

-by breed for purebreds (see breed standards which sometimes allow some leeway)

-by size-for non purebreds

-by size for the purposes of some competitions- see rules

-on some adult sites there is another

minis are considered horses because of the breed standard.

BaroquePony
Sep. 28, 2009, 06:59 PM
Quoted from Wikipedia:

Pony breeds have developed all over the world, particularly in cold and harsh climates where hardy, sturdy, working animals were needed. The "Four foundations theory" suggests that ponies, particularly in Europe, may have descended from the "draft" subspecies of Equus ferus.[3] Nearly all pony breeds share the ability to thrive on a more limited diet than that of a regular-sized horse, and are remarkably strong for their size. Some breeds, such as the Shetland pony are able to pull as much weight as a draft horse. Others, such as the Connemara pony, are recognized for their ability to carry a full-sized adult rider.

Footnote [3] references a book by Deb Bennet, Conquerors: The Roots of New World Horsemanship.

slc2
Sep. 28, 2009, 08:22 PM
Don't you get your wrists slapped for quoting wikipedia?

For what it's worth, not everyone in the world of equine archaeology, anthropology and research related to it, agrees with Deb Bennet, in particular on the statements about 'breeds', 'protobreeds'' and even equid species.

I don't believe that ponies came from a 'draft' breed. I think horses in the hot countries were slim and narrow and horses in the colder, heavier soiled countries were a stockier type, and that people selected them from there.

The 'four foundations' theory she mentioned is her theory.

BaroquePony
Sep. 28, 2009, 09:19 PM
I believe I stated in my previous posts that I would not have the time to back all of this up properly, ie. dragging my science books down off the shelf along with probably going to the library in a different state than I am living in at the moment.

AND, I already stated that Wikipedia is not always accurate, but that it usually does offer some fairly decent basics.

AND, I believe that I have seen some other publications of Deb Bennet's that I don't necessarily think are all that brilliant.

However, all that being said, I do beleive that ponies are a subspecies of Equus whatever-latin-word-is-supposed-to-be-here-that-Wikipedia-seems-to-have-misplaced.

slc2, your comment about how I was just flat WRONG is just flat unbacked up crap on your part.

[edit]

Now that I have a "live study" in my barn, Max the Cob, I have had a chance to really check out his legs and they are not like modern horse's legs. The splint bones are very different in their location - more prominent and much longer - that kind of skeletal exhibit usually indicates a split from the original genus or species early on. I stand by my comment that ponies are not horses, they are a subspecies of horses.

Timex
Sep. 28, 2009, 10:24 PM
OP, I know you think you're being berated, but, your posts read as someone who is very defensive and stuck in a particular mindset. Dollars to donuts that your mare has spent what little saddle time she's had since 'the incident' (you've GOT to stop thinking of it that way! YOU'VE got to get over it before you can get her going right again!) feeding off of you, so now you've got more work to do. I get it that you've got stuff going on, but you have to commit to making time, if you want to fix it quickly. I had an infant, 2 horses and a FT job. My son spent a lot of time in a stroller with snacks and his toys, and later, a shovel and a pile of dirt. Or find a sitter. Or schedule playdates, or, or, or... Want to be more consistent? Gotta make it happen, it doesn't just fall into your lap, unfortunately.
So, sorry if you think I'm berating you, that wasn't my intent, just sharing my reaction to your own words.

Now, if I was going to berate anyone, it would be slc, baroquepony and anyone else being as ridiculous and catty as they feel the need to be. Y'all are relatively intelligent adults, maybe you can learn to play nice in someone else's sandbox? Geez, it makes the hunter forum look well behaved.

bort84
Sep. 29, 2009, 01:12 AM
Wowie!

So, I must say, ponies are certainly more like horses than zebras... I mean, seriously. And most pony breeds have had some horse blood mixed in through the years. They think a bit differently, absolutely, but all breeds think a smidge differently. However, they are still pretty similar across breeds and all tend to behave like horses...

I do think this thread has gotten a bit silly. 1) Cobs are horses or ponies or whatever, does the difference matter that much? They may think slightly differently, just like the majority of QHs often think a bit differently than ASBs or TBs or Arabs. But they still respond to normal horse training. You can still out think them, if you work at it. You don't have to go back into old horse evolution manuals and whatnot to know that cobs WILL respond to fairly typical horse training. There are always adjustments for individuals, but they are still horses (ponies, whatever) and can be trained accordingly.

2) The treat comments are hilarious = ) I know some people have had some success with clicker type training or treat training, but it still needs to be used with regular training once you are working on their back.

3) BFZ, how do you work with an instructor that wouldn't feel confident getting on your horse? I just can't imagine riding with somebody that wasn't a LOT better than me and paying them for it (or taking much of their riding advice, period). Perhaps you could find someone in your area with a bit more experience? I really think you and your mare would benefit greatly from some more advanced professional help.

I don't see how the meanness is necessary either. They're cobs, not magical pegasuses or wild zebras. The middle ground is obviously the right place to be (as usual) - cobs think differently than some breeds, but they are hardly as different from "regular" horses as, say, zebras...

Moderator 1
Sep. 29, 2009, 07:58 AM
Let's tone it down, folks, and return to the main topic. Please keep it focused on helping the OP overcome her and her mare's issues in a productive, somewhat pleasant manner. Constructive criticism doesn't have to be given or received with accompanying attittude.

Thanks,
Mod 1

BaroquePony
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:34 AM
My apology. I lost my patience and it happened to be on this thread. I have ignored many nasty comments from one party aimed at me and others on numerous other threads besides this one. Sorry.

ETA: and that party apparently edited her own post that ticked me off in the first place.

in_the_zone
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:54 AM
I do not doubt for a second that one bad ride can "ruin" a horse. I used to think it was bs until it happened to me. The short version is I rescued a super hot, on the edge of madness OTTB with whom I was w/t/c and trotting a small course calmly with. He had a horrible accident with a girl who came out and rode him. The physical stuff resolved within a week and I got on expecting him to be what I made him. He almost killed me.

This Cobs are harder/different to train/ride than other horses is complete poppycock! I trained a green well-bred Welsh Cob this spring and he was easy, willing and uncomplicated. Cobs are bred to be solid, steady, good-minded driving horses, so maybe your Cob is unlike a Cob entirely. And regarding their trots...harder to ride than an old style warmblood with the big power trot? I don't think so.

You are anthromophisising about your mare way too much. It's hindering her progress, your riding, and the ability to enjoy your horse. Perhaps you should consider hiring a professional to get her over this hump. And for goodness sakes, ride with stirrups for now. What if she did do something, dislodged you and you fell upsetting her even more or getting yourself hurt?

Edited to add: You need to be able to put leg on this horse. I was going to mention that it will become an issue in your dressage training later, but it's already an issue now with safety. If you don't know how to get this part worked out, hire a professional.

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:55 AM
Timex- Any idea how to find gosh darn babysitters? I've had no luck in a year, offering $10 an hour for 2hrs a day so i can ride. No one is interested. I cant say i know many people around here, we live in the boonies and we've only been here a year. I'm in the local horse club, but no one there wanted to babysit, i ask every meeting, one lady seemed interested, came one day, then said she was too busy. I'm very lucky that i have a good kid, he doesnt drive you nuts, he plays by himself and watches tv, and i offered to ride in the heat of the afternoon so he would be napping, all she had to do was sit here and watch TV and every 10-15min check out the window and make sure there are no loose horses... :) Seemed like an easy $20 to me, but she only made it once. I know no one here with kids to schedule a play date. I have no problems going out and lunging horses with my son in the stroller, he doesnt mind either. But i wont ride here alone, if i came off and get seriously hurt, it could be hours before someone were to notice. That leaves my kid in the stroller for who knows how long. I dont care if i had a 26yr old dead head QH here to ride, i still would not ride alone. This is something that was instilled in me as a kid, and having a friend get killed that way when i was a teen, i just wont do it.

I've told my husband our next move we arent owning property. I want to go back to boarding so you've got people around! Nice to have the horses at home and all, but i ride them less at home then when we board.

Sorry if i've come off defensive here, but i didnt come asking for advice, i was looking for moral support that she'll come out of it eventually. Not that i dont mind the advice, but it got a little rough reading everyone saying "she's got my number, suck it up and push her forward, carrying baggage, etc" when i know i'm not. If i had been the one to come off her, that might be different, but falling off a horse is nothing new here. Falling off 13.3h is hardly traumatic in the way Nancy fell. To be honest, and dont tell her this, but i was laughing when it happened. I feel bad she's been having issues with the chiro and coming back to walking normal and all, i've decided you stop bouncing after 25... lol. But it was quite an entertaining fall. Never would i have thought my mare would be so silly about remembering a fall like this, especially with me on her back, she's always trusted me.

But i guess i put more weight in human emotions our horses have that they really dont. What does she care who was on her, it just made it scary in the ring.

My only complaint with my instructor is that she doesnt push me hard enough. She's far more accomplished in the show ring than i am and may have earned her silver this year, i havent followed her show schedule/winnings etc... She's also a judge. But she's also quick to tell you that riding is not really her passion, she loves to teach and judge. So her eye is great, i learn a lot from her in my lessons, and over the spring/early summer she was driving here to teach which was super as she's over an hour away. I've had plenty of instructors, most who were judges, that didnt ride themselves anymore. So no, i dont have a problem if she isnt doesnt want to get on my pony, be it physical or emotional reasons for not doing so. That doesnt make her a worse instructor to me. Havent found anyone else better.

I will still say cobs are different, yes you train them the same, but just like some dogs, they go threw different stages than other breeds, hold grudges where others dont, etc... I could say the same about an arab frankly, i grew up in that world, but even then, some arabs arent that way. We breed and show dogs, i've got 6 aussies, my husband has a german shepherd. I know nothing about german shepherds except i really dont like the breed at all after owning one. My aussies are extremely intelligent, too much so. The GS is going threw this "fright period" that is driving me bonkers. Never known another dog to do it, but from what our dog instructor says at classes, GS do this, its normal. Very similar to the differences in horse breeds, if they were all bred to be the same, we wouldnt have different breeds.

I wont even start on the other conversation here about ponies vs horse vs zebra... lol. You guys crack me up.

Like i've said, we'll keep plugging along. Much as i have high hopes and dreams for my dressage, my family comes first. It wasnt always that way. :) But it is now, i cant beat myself up for it, its just the way it is. Consistency may not happen until my son is grown up and out of the house. Hope not, i'm hoping when school starts my life will get back on track in my "spare time." :) We'll see.

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:06 AM
In The Zone - I havent had a saddle to fit this mare correctly since i bought her, i've rode her almost entirely in a bareback pad. Riding without stirrups would be nothing new here. But i've got a new saddle that finally fits her and myself, just got it last week, thus i've been out there riding all i can! I'm just trying to find myself in it, its a different feel for me, slightly wider twist than i like, so i could care less about her sillies, i wanted to find my seat. No better way to do it than without stirrups. This mare isnt going to kill me, she may be scooting around like a dork, but hardly is it coming unglued spooking out of her skin, shaking to step foot in the ring.

I would say her trot is the same as an old style warmblood. And yes, i've ridden a few. ;) I think what takes you off guard is that you dont expect it on 13.3h, which is what unseated my friend.

I broke her out in a bareback pad, so i agree with your cob experience, VERY smart and easy to train type of horses, so long as they are in proper hands, i think she would kill someone if they tried to force something out of her, knowing her reaction to clippers. LOL Like i mentioned before, she's never been this retarded in the 3yrs i've owned her.

exvet
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:19 AM
Like i've said, we'll keep plugging along. Much as i have high hopes and dreams for my dressage, my family comes first. It wasnt always that way. But it is now, i cant beat myself up for it, its just the way it is. Consistency may not happen until my son is grown up and out of the house. Hope not, i'm hoping when school starts my life will get back on track in my "spare time." We'll see.

Hey don't worry 'cause a few of us have really truly been there. I rode less when my kids were toddlers. I too lived in a state with no family and no friends with kids (in other words they would have died first before even looking at a child without cringing let alone a baby). Babysitters were non existent (also lived out in the BFE zone). I rode at night many times - summers outside and winter hauled over to a friend's indoor arena- after my husband got home. Fortunately he didn't travel too much. I use to pay board for one horse (kept my horses at home) just to be able to use the indoor arena at night. The BO was very gracious and let me haul in however many I wanted to ride that night. She just was happy to have a boarder who wasn't really anyone she had to deal with in terms of horsecare or "issues".

Needless to say once my kids were school age my riding time increased significantly. I backed and started horses back then (welsh cobs) and have continued to. Your horse is young and not going anywhere so you have plenty of time to get her past this. Even if it's not x number of times a week to everyone else's liking as long as you're consistent each ride you should make progress. I like the comment from the n=1 study. You know where I stand on that issue. My guess is that n=1 was a hastening bred cob or derwen which does make a difference. Now ask me how I know? :winkgrin:
Yeah, yeah I know everyone else is the expert............hee, hee, hee, hee.

Morgan, my devil in pony clothing, who has dumped me three times - dirty type of stuff which he learned from professional trainers. Went in and won his training level tests this weekend. It was a schooling show but with a licensed judge. The comments I received were "Great job! What a lovely obedient horse. Needed a bit more energy especially toward the end of test. A pleasure to watch." You have no idea how rewarding it was just to get the comments not to mention the 9 for the last halt, 8 on submission and 7 on gaits. It has taken me a year to get him past several issues that almost landed him in the Alpo can. He is one of those imaginary poppycock type of welsh cobs that is oh so easy :winkgrin:...............Oh and better yet BFZ, my mare, the one who has or HAD the same canter issues earned a 64 & 65 on first level tests 2 & 4. Her canter still needs improvement but it has come so very far from where we started. So YES THERE IS HOPE AND I HAVE FAITH. You and your mare will eventually hit your goals. Take care of your family and in time you can get back to focusing more on your riding when it's appropriate. As I said BTDT :D Here are some pics. Video clips to you privately once I can get my husband to upload the ones from the weekend.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/2009/DSC_0412.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/2009/DSC_0356.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/2009/DSC_0613.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/2009/DSC_0667.jpg

Keep riding that cob when you can. Her brothers are sending their support too!

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 29, 2009, 10:32 AM
Congrats on your show exvet! Its so awesome to get feedback like that! Would love to see the videos when you get a chance. I know my girl has a nice canter, i see it in the field, but getting that sucker balanced on a circle with me on her is going to be a process! ;)

I have the issue of husband working long hours when home AND traveling. He just got back 2 weeks ago from a month and a half in Peurto Rico teaching a class. Supposedly this next year will be even more traveling... UGH! I might put one of the girls in a boarding facility or i may never get to ride! I dont have lights outside, riding at night at home isnt really an option unless i've got a nice full moon... :) All our family is in IL, so yep, no family to babysit either. Really looking forward to that 5yr b-day and the start of preschool! Only 4 more years... BLAH!

BaroquePony
Sep. 29, 2009, 07:34 PM
exvet, your ponies look great. I really love that buckskin. She's beautiful.

It's nice to have a Welsh Cob Support Group.


But i guess i put more weight in human emotions our horses have that they really dont. What does she care who was on her, it just made it scary in the ring.

Not to get into any more trouble here, but ponies and horses do have emotions, we just have to be careful to read THEIR emotions and not project our own onto them. Big difference.

One of the best helpful hints that I got after I got Max and went "oh dear", was down at a local tack shop. I needed to get fitted for a new pair of boots and it just so happens that the owner of the store was also the boot measurer AND he had been a member of the Canadian Gran Prix Jumping Olympic Team AND one of his best jumpers was an Irish Draught ... sssooo, of course I asked him a couple of questions .... told him I just got this Welsh Cob and I explained a couple of my concerns (extremely spoiled, NO manners at all ... etc.) and he said: "They have 'attitide'. He's basically an Irish horse which means that some days you'll ask for something and you won't get it. Other times you'll ask and then demand they do it and then they'll be PO'd. Don't worry, they'll get over it. Just take it slow and they'll come around. Make sure you let him know he's a really good boy."

There are days that I ask very little of Max except for a good trail ride. There have been days where I have asked just a bit more than he has to give .... he's already very tired and I ask for just a wee bit more. On those days he will express how PO'd he is after I get back to the barn, untack and turn him out... he's like a dark cloud when he's mad ... and he stays that way until I come back out and give him a major grooming and tell him how good he was earlier (this is on top of the grooming he got when we came in earlier). After that, he'll bury his head in my chest and sigh.

Then he's back to being his chipper cheery self.

I listen to Max. I listen to all of my horses. They will tell me when they are getting into trouble, when they are overfaced, confused, scared or in pain.

What happened to BFZ's young mare was the equivalent of when a rider falls off and then they are supposed to get right back on so they don't have that lingering feeling of the fear of falling off. Well, when BFZ's mare fell out from under her rider she ended up having to deal with the lingering fear of falling out from under her rider. Same difference. It takes longer to get over the fear if you wait then if you get right back on. Well, BFZ's mare ended up having to wait until she had a chance to conquer her fear of loosing her rider.

So, BFZ, take your time, be patient and she'll get over it. It's just gonna take a bit more time because of your situation. I never thought she "had your number", I thought that you were having problems because you are out there in the boonies and you don't have a good "buddy system" set up.

Ghazzu
Sep. 29, 2009, 08:57 PM
I think the mtDNA work that's been done shows some of the pony breeds splitting splitting off as a cluster, but they're not a subspecies of E. caballus, they're all E. caballus.

BaroquePony
Sep. 29, 2009, 09:34 PM
Guessing E. caballus is Equus caballus (caballus being the latin second name that Wikipedia forgot to mention).

Is E.caballus the Genus or Species? "Sub_____" is only a "subset" of the "set" ... so it technically should be a parallel development after an early split. Wikipedia mentions the "draft" as a "subspecies" of Equus ferus ??

How do Equus caballus and Equus ferus relate ? Would Equus ferus be a "subspecies" of E. caballus ?

I don't really trust Wikipedia on this, although I think they are sort of in the right direction.

By the way, thank you.

ETA: then what do they call the "cluster" ?

Hobbs
Sep. 29, 2009, 10:05 PM
"The GS is going threw this "fright period" that is driving me bonkers. Never known another dog to do it, but from what our dog instructor says at classes, GS do this, its normal. Very similar to the differences in horse breeds, if they were all bred to be the same, we wouldnt have different breeds."

I breed German Shepherds and I haven't a clue what you're talking about"

"Holy jumping to conclusions Batman!"

Ghazzu
Sep. 29, 2009, 10:09 PM
Guessing E. caballus is Equus caballus (caballus being the latin second name that Wikipedia forgot to mention).

Is E.caballus the Genus or Species? "Sub_____" is only a "subset" of the "set" ... so it technically should be a parallel development after an early split. Wikipedia mentions the "draft" as a "subspecies" of Equus ferus ??

How do Equus caballus and Equus ferus relate ? Would Equus ferus be a "subspecies" of E. caballus ?

I don't really trust Wikipedia on this, although I think they are sort of in the right direction.

By the way, thank you.

ETA: then what do they call the "cluster" ?


I don't think the "E. ferus" designation is universally accepted.

Equus= genus
caballus=species

Here' (http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10905.full.pdf+html)s the mtDNA paper.

slc2
Sep. 30, 2009, 07:04 AM
"I came here for moral support, not advice"

Most people, when they get frightened, only want to hear from people who agree with them that the problem is huge, is terrible, is overwhelming, can't be solved easily or quickly.

I went with a friend who tried a cob at a busy show. She had an awful time.

And then, another rider came by. This rider was clearly not a person who'd had a lot of lessons or was welll trained. She got up on this very green horse, and she was just - relaxed. And the horse relaxed.

The difference in how that horse worked for the one gal, and the next one, who had nothing more really going than simply being relaxed, was amazing. All horses feel the rider's tension, and all react. And in all horses, alll breeds, all ages, the rider needs to be up there without his emotions. He needs to be calm.

It is reallly, REALLY that simple.

Quite a few people have expressed concern that your view of the situation, how you were describing it and explaining it, was not going to lead to a successful resolution. And I think they're right. I think people have given a lot of moral support and encouragement, but quite a few have not bought into this 'my horse is different'.

I agree with them. I think, 'but my horse is different, he's much harder, and this is a really bad problem, I don't think any of you really understand my horse, my breed', is something everyone has fallen into from time to time.

What I prefer to say is, 'I am scared' or 'I find this very difficult' or 'I don't know what to do' or 'I am afraid to try to solve this', or 'I am afraid to try', or 'I'm going to approach this in a way that involves me riding this horse for as little as possible for as long as possible' I think that's more realistic a picture of what the person feels.

The mistake we make, we ALL make at one time or another, is to believe our emotions are reality, and are everything about the situation.

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 30, 2009, 08:18 AM
Hobbs - Dont ask me, i've never dealt with GSDs before, but this is BIG GSD territory here, the breeder we got her from (actually being the lady that fell off my pony... lol) has several titles on her dogs and does (i'm going to mutilate the spelling) schitzund with them, she's been breeding since the 60s, all imported german lines, she doesnt follow the current american conformation show ring trends. What we've heard from everyone is that this is normal and they call it a "fright period." My husband is taking her to class, not a run of the mill place, they've got students showing in obedience and agility and doing very well and compete themselves, my friend is also an instructor there. They've told us the same thing and they've dealt with several GSDs. She's 10 months old, we've had her 2 months now. Absolutely drives me bonkers. Not sure i would have agreed to him getting this breed of dog had we have known about that first. I'm sure not all are that way, you've always got variables in every creature out there, perhaps Grace is extreme. She's the first GSD i've ever been around aside from the ones i see at shows, which frankly i've never paid attention to. Husband wanted a big dog, so this is what he got. He's a sucker for the underdog, so really they get along just fine, and she loves me, so i dont really have an issue working around her. But if something startles her, and everything does, she's out of there with no regard to what might be in her way, she's plowed into me several times, knocked my son over, will drag you on the lead if not in her prong collar, for now its all we lead her with. She's getting better at class. I'm hopeful this "period" goes away soon.

I'll stick with my aussies! But then again, i've never been a BIG dog person to begin with.

exvet
Sep. 30, 2009, 10:07 AM
Most people, when they get frightened, only want to hear from people who agree with them that the problem is huge, is terrible, is overwhelming, can't be solved easily or quickly.

OK. I'm going to start by saying that your 100% right SLC. I again bow down to your expertise; however, with the OP I don't think this is what is happening. First, I don't think she's frightened of her horse/cob. Second, I don't think she's looking for people to agree with her just related experiences that offer the light at the end of the tunnel. If that makes us all frightened little school girls who can't tell our a$$$ from a hole in the ground so be it.

The difference in how that horse worked for the one gal, and the next one, who had nothing more really going than simply being relaxed, was amazing. All horses feel the rider's tension, and all react. And in all horses, alll breeds, all ages, the rider needs to be up there without his emotions. He needs to be calm.

It is reallly, REALLY that simple.

Again 100% correct. A horse, be it a cob or not, with brains can tell when a rider is not going to demand much from it too. In many cases that horse is okey dokey with things. Relaxation also has so much to do with influencing the responses or lack thereof. However, you can get on a horse, let's for argument sake just take a welsh cob for example, start with working on getting it to relax, chew, stretch down and out, get swing in the back at the walk. Move on to trot and work on the same goals - relaxation - soft jaw, relaxed and swinging through the back. Then you get to the canter and even some of the best riders who are aware of the need to stay relaxed can get an explosive response or a very nervous and tense horse who is reacting that way not due to the rider being tense but because of lack of balance of the horse. Now of course it's the rider's/trainer's responsibility to work on not overfacing the horse and improving the balance over time so that the horse becomes more relaxed, confident and comfortable within that gait. Such a problem is certainly not uncommon in cobs. I being challenged in my skills as I am find that especially for some cobs it takes time to work through and attain the end goal. I'm sure it's overnight for you but as I said we know I'm challenged. Hence the reason for thinking some "issues" take longer to work through.

I agree with them. I think, 'but my horse is different, he's much harder, and this is a really bad problem, I don't think any of you really understand my horse, my breed', is something everyone has fallen into from time to time.

Hey I am willing to pay the plane fare to have you come and get on my buckskin wonder. I reallyyyyyyyyy would like for you to show me how it should be done. I know he's not that different. I agree with you that he's just got my number. His baggage and history has nothing to do with his breeding. (Truthfully I don't think the fact that he's a pony of cob type is responsible for this at all). My kissing the dirt has all to do with my fears and lacking of skills as a rider/trainer. So as a result and my willingness to look in the mirror, what do you say? You think you can come on down and demonstrate to me the truly correct way to ride this guy, get beyond my fears and just get him through it, especially since it's all my imagination anyway? The weather here is really starting to turn nice :winkgrin:

If you'd like and to make it worth your while you can get on my PSG guy too and show me where I went wrong. Of coursre I'd pay you for your time and training. Please show me how he's really just like every other horse. Nuthin' to it ;) Oh let me tell ya, you'll be fillin' some big breeches though - Betsy and Christine have each ridden him. One fared a whole lot better than the other :winkgrin:

Oh I apologize to the OP.......here I go making it all about me again. Sorry. I just figured you and I should be labeled together since we've identified some similarities. I will reiterate though that SLC is correct about the relaxation and tenseness issues. Not breed specific at all but definitely a huge key to the puzzle. It's just that welsh cobs are really good about anticipating, figuring things out, and making a fool out of you if given the chance - oh again I digress these things are not breed specific :D bad, bad, bad exvet ;) :lol:

BaroquePony
Sep. 30, 2009, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Ghazzu:

I don't think the "E. ferus" designation is universally accepted.

Equus= genus
caballus=species

Here's (http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10905.full.pdf+html) the mtDNA paper.

Thank you. Yeah, I am rusty. Appreciate the paper. I read it, but am going to have to study a few things on it ... like the chart on the third page ... the thoroughbred (VB) seems to show several origins coming from the A6 circle and going through a couple of, what looks like to me if I am understanding this right, a couple of different 'DNA directions'.

What am I missing here?

goeslikestink
Sep. 30, 2009, 02:26 PM
I wasn't using Wikipedia to check that, I was using Bruce J McFadden's Fossil Horses, which tends to stay right near my computer, and a couple similar sources. I think McFadden's book is very good. Bennett gives I think 7 subspecies, present/past, I mention her because people here seem to think she's always right - she mentions no pony subspecies as well.

I went on Wikipedia and checked as well since it was mentioned, and none of those articles suggest ponies are subspecies either. None of the other sources I check consider ponies a subspecies either.

So I see nothing that backs up your statement that ponies are considered to be a subspecies by any scientific group or individual. The term subspecies means something very specific, even if people tend to use the word as 'kind of a group sort of thing'. I have heard ponies called a 'breed group'. I don't see why ponies need to be a subspecies. To paraphrase a recent post, I think they'll be alright whether they are determined to be a subspecies or not.


urm with the rest of your books

whicker
Oct. 1, 2009, 07:05 PM
Hey, butlerfamilyzoo,

Big Hugs!!! I know it is hard to do it all without support. Even the squirrels are acting up. I'm sorry that DH is gone so much. There is so much on your plate.

You have accomplished one of your major goals with the new saddle. What did you choose? You put a lot of thought into that.

I am hoping that some of the cothers will have some ideas for meeting other riders and creating a support system. Maybe your vet will have some ideas. Mine has been a life saver in that regard. Maybe posting over on the off course forum for ideas for babysitting/swapping time. I had a tough time, too, finding a way to make it work.

I will keep thinking about it for you.

butlerfamilyzoo
Oct. 2, 2009, 08:41 AM
Hi Whicker!

We ended up with a Startrekk Icelandic Treeless saddle. She seems to hate treed saddles, either that or i just never found one to fit her in a way she did like. But i think some of it has to do with how much swing she's got in her back and a treed saddle just doesnt "follow," does that make sense? Also issues of getting the darn things to STAY off that shoulder. The Startrekk Icelandic does beautifully. A little weird for me to get used to, i've been riding her in a treeless saddle (that didnt work for me at all, total chair seat) with NO twist, or bareback, and this one lets my leg fall straight as possible with a medium twist. So i still feel like i'm trying to find myself in it, granted i havent gotten to ride in it a whole lot yet! Sigh. But its super comfy and i like what i see in the mirrors, its just putting it all together!

The other plus though, it also fits my welsh X girl superb and she loves it too. Both of them have really opened up in their movement, which i didnt think there could possibly be more in there BEFORE this! So it was a good investment and i can start focusing more on really riding, instead of plunking around my property in tack that doesnt work for me.

My instructor has 6 schooling shows a year at her place. The last couple i've went to, i had to take my son and go alone as my husband had to work. Not easy to meet people when you've got to push a stroller, settle a kid, hop on a horse, ride into the ring, hop right off and settle the kid again! But i'm hoping this next one, my husband will be off, YAY, and i can mingle a little more, and hopefully find some more dressage friends around the area. As for finding sitters though, boy i dont know what to do there. Thats been frustrating!

We'll keep plugging along as best we can here. I'm just thankful the economy hasnt hit us so hard that i can still keep my horses! Even if i dont get to ride as much as i would like to.