Interesting Email Re: U.S Riding Culture

[Serah]

I'm not sure if this has been shared before, but i recieved this email yesterday and thought there were some valid points made. Wanted to share...

p.s. it appears to have been written by an eventer but speaks of all disciplines...

The Problems That Burghley Has Shown Us

September 14, 2009
by John Strassburger

Ever since the middling results of the six riders and horses the U.S. Equestrian Federation sent to the Range Rover Burghley CCI4* on Labor Day weekend, the internet horse world has been abuzz. The only U.S. rider to place in the top 10 was Phillip Dutton, who finished fourth on Truluck. Buck Davidson (11th) and Amy Tryon (14th) managed to make it to the top 20.

These mediocre results followed last April’s Rolex Kentucky CCI4*, where Buck finished third on My Boy Bobby, Phillip finished seventh on Connaught, and Stephen Bradley finished 10th on Brandenburg’s Joshua—the only three U.S. riders to make the top 10 at our own biggest event. The hand wringing has become more anxious following Burghley because we’re now exactly a year away from the Alltech FEI World Equestrian Games at the Kentucky Horse Park. We’ll be blown out of the medals, some fear. Something needs to be done—now—they insist!

I think that the disappointing results our event riders have recorded in two of the three biggest annual events are symptomatic of a peculiarly American issue in all three Olympic disciplines. To an extent, it’s even true in the other international disciplines that will make up next year’s FEI World Games. But a lot can happen in a year. I know that scores of riders in all these disciplines have plans to get horses ready for the selection trials that could bring them to Kentucky, and at this point no one can predict how they’ll do.

But, in the longer term, we have some national issues regarding the development of international-caliber riders and horses—and putting the two together—that are not being addressed as well as they are in England, Germany, the Netherlands, France and elsewhere. And, honestly, I’m not sure the leaders and staff of the U.S. Equestrian Federation have (or even want to have) the capacity to do it.

These challenges fall into four categories, which space and your attention span are going to force me to simplify here. (Remember, I believe these absolutely apply to dressage and show jumping too, and even to driving and endurance.)

The first and most important is funding, which our deep recession has only exacerbated. Every single non-profit organization is struggling to make ends meet because everyone has cut way back on their giving. Almost all our rivals have a big advantage over us here: Great Britain’s teams are funded by profits from the nation’s lottery (funneled through their Olympic committee), and many others get substantial support from their Olympic committees too. The USEF gets less than $1 million over the four-year cycle from the USOC, enough to partly pay coaches and for teams to go to some competitions.

But remember that that national funding is almost solely dependent on performance, on winning medals and trophies: A nation’s team wins the Olympics or the World Championships, they get more money. They go a year or two without winning anything, they get far less. Some have criticized U.S. coaches, especially eventing coach Mark Phillips, for being too ruthless and not caring enough about the horses or about developing riders. Well, Phillips’ job is to prepare his teams to win, and significant performance-dependent funding wouldn’t make him any less “win at all costs.”

Still, this low level of funds colors the other three issues. It has a direct effect upon the horses available to elite riders right now. The number of people willing and able to buy and pay for the care, training and competition of an elite horse has never been a big pool, and now that the housing and credit markets have crashed, it’s far, far shallower. International competition takes serious money—easily $30,000 to $50,000 per year per horse, depending on the discipline, or more.

Plus, in our giant-sized country, with so many horses starting their lives and their sporting careers from so many diffuse points, riders must have a system to find candidate horses, or they have to be lucky. I firmly believe we breed horses that are as good as or better than any bred in Europe, but 90 percent or more are never “discovered” or trained by anyone who can bring out their abilities.

The trouble with finding horses brings us to a cultural issue—the business model of all but a tiny handful of our elite and want-to-be-elite riders. It revolves—of necessity—around training junior and amateur riders, training horses for those riders, and buying and selling horses for those riders. That can leave them precious little time for training themselves or their horses, or for finding more horses. Show jumper Beezie Madden is the only elite rider I know of whose business doesn’t revolve around her training others. Thanks to her husband, John Madden, who’s one of the world’s most successful dealers of top show jumpers, her business revolves around her training her competition horses and horses for them to sell. In eventing, Phillip Dutton has come the closest to a business revolving around his riding (although he also trains a limited number of riders). And Beezie’s and Phillip’s results show how well this works.

The Europeans we compete against do not train these hordes of people. They train themselves and compete at the highest levels, and they can do that partially because their competitions do not have every level, from beginner to grand prix or advanced, as ours do. And they have better corporate and individual sponsorship. How or why? I’m not sure. But I do know that, in the three Olympic disciplines, a month doesn’t go by where an elite European rider hasn’t competed at least once against top international competition, and they could do it two or three times a month. For U.S. riders, facing competition like that two or three times a year would be a lot.

Finally, I really think we have a cultural issue that neither increased funding nor USEF policies is going to fix. I hate to say it, but precious few American kids or 20-somethings really want to put in the hours necessary to become an elite rider or true horseman. For a couple of generations, our society has encouraged busy-ness but not dedication. Our society has encouraged kids to do a lot of things—play soccer, play tennis, join school clubs or the band and do your homework for hours each day—but told them that focusing on doing one thing really well is too narrow. At the same time, money became relatively easy to make and could shortcut work. Plus we’re now fully comfortable in a nanny-state society, a society terrified of nearly any kind of danger. Well, horses and riding are inherently dangerous.

People have suggested a variety of schemes to encourage and promote training and sponsorship of eager riders who couldn’t afford it otherwise. I’m not suggesting such schemes should be completely ignored, but I fear that our current younger generation won’t take advantage of them like some hope. Why? Because they see their richer peers avoid the work with money and because no one ever really taught them how to work.

So, those are what I see as the problems. Are there solutions? Perhaps, and we’ll come back to this subject.

[dags]

Serah, thanks for posting. I like his conciseness and I agree with his points. The participants of "This is why the Europeans beat us" thread should wander over her. . . maybe a real discussion could ensue??

[eventmom]

Thanks! I wish you would cross post it in the eventing forum!

[Jsalem]

Very interesting and I agree with these points. I'm a hunter trainer and see the same thing in my discipline. Most of my kids are way too busy to learn the kind of horsemanship I learned from "hanging out" at the barn and from learning the "hard way." There is a huge emphasis on competition- before riders can even canter! I personally don't believe in awarding year end awards in walk/trot or ground poles. I'm even ambivalent about big awards in the short stirrup, although I do have students that go for that award. It discourages riders from moving up and rewards what?

In my area, I've seen show series create these circuit awards in all these low level divisions and the "real divisions" barely fill. Last weekend's local show had hours and hours of beginners and the first real division (pony hunters) didn't go until after 3pm. I was kind of annoyed that the "showcase" riders were put at the end of the day. I don't think that's right. The horseshow "wants" better competitors, and yet it caters to the lowest level.

At the other end of the spectrum, I own a really nice First Year Green Hunter that my daughter and I bought green and made up. We have been under tremendous pressure to sell out, sell out for the $$ as we've had a lot of inquiries on him as a Junior Hunter. No one seems to understand the concept of keeping the horse for the professional to enjoy and promote in the pro divisions. Again, the emphasis is on the amateurs, not the professionals.

Look at the Hunter Derby. The specs for last year made it very inviting for the amateurs to compete. Now, I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy seeing the great Junior riders competing against the pros- the best Juniors were thrilling to watch. But I did see some of the smaller Derbies in the southeast having more Junior riders than pros. I saw the pros out there coaching amateurs for that class and not riding themselves. IMO there were too many amateurs "giving it a try" to make the class really special.

[hellerkm]

This is a excellent article about the issues, once again there are VERY few solutions( not by the author but in general). This has always been and will continue to be an "elite" sport. I do wish our system was different, but hten again the USA was built on the foundation of belief that if you want something enough and try hard enough you can make it. Countries that support their athletes are "paying" then to perform, IMO that takes away from the true nature of the competition.
I agree that this country needs a better system to find and bring along excellent horses ( some type of national registry that breeders can choose to participate in?? with the ability to upload video of potential prospects?) I think the SAME goes for riders, there are many many EXCELLENT riders who do not have the funding to compete at the level needed to be recognized and developed by top pros. And like the previous poster stated Pros who compete as PROS, and somehow have the funding to do so ( in which case they would NOT need to have so many clients in order to make a living) of course that contradicts my previous thought that athletes should not be totally funded in their sport. SO I guess that leaves me back at square one, without any real solutions. LOL
Great article and lots of food for thought!!!

[SaturdayNightLive]

I thought it was good, but I think it painted the 20-somethings with a rather large brush. I know many college aged kids - myself included - who would love nothing more than to spend all day every day around horses and horse shows. However, I don't happen to have a trust fund. In the USA, it costs lots and lots of money to have the time and horses that are required. It isn't a lack of dedication, it's a lack of funds.

[Jsalem]

But that's where the 20 year olds get stuck. They should have been spending all that time at the barn when they were children. By the time they're 20, they should have become very competent riders with lots of marketable horsemanship skills. At 20, they should be WORKING- maybe not being paid to ride the big time horses, but being paid to groom, clip, exercise horses or maybe being paid to manage the office. Maybe being paid to handle the marketing for sales horses, caring for small farms while owners are on vacation- the list is endless. Maybe they get a real job in the outside world and fit riding in after work.

The 20 year olds look around and say, "hey, why aren't I being paid the big bucks to ride the nice horses?" Sure, they rode and showed as Juniors, but they never learned the horsemanship. A Bucker? No way! Body clip? Don't the grooms do that? I think that's the problem.

[Purple Danny]

I thought it was good, but I think it painted the 20-somethings with a rather large brush. I know many college aged kids - myself included - who would love nothing more than to spend all day every day around horses and horse shows. However, I don't happen to have a trust fund. In the USA, it costs lots and lots of money to have the time and horses that are required. It isn't a lack of dedication, it's a lack of funds.

The previous poster to this one was absolutely spot on. You don't need to have a trust fund. If you were really dedicated, you'd work at a barn all day, regardless of the pay and the fact you may have to live rough. She was just saying that a lot of young people today seem to think if you don't have the money you can't get ahead in the sport. Yes, it will be difficult if you don't have the helping hand or a rich relative, but there are plenty of stories of successful riders who were paid peanuts, but worked in exchange for the experience that got them to where they are today. You don't have to have your own horses. Or a lot of funds. It makes it easier yes, but it is not essential if you are willing to do without for many years...and I don't think today's generation are always willing to do that.

[metzengerstein]

That's from John Strassburger's blog: The Equine Things That Matter Most (http://www.myhorse.com/blogs/john_strassburger/index.aspx)

[dags]

When I was a 20 something (not that long ago!) I did the dirty, rode the dirty, and lived the dirty. Eventually went out on my own as a pro and started at the bottom of dirty all over again :) But I grew up in the 90s, before the full grooming takeover, and willingly immersed myself in the dirt without even a thought of compensation. And I learned it was much more fun as a kid :D

I would say there are a handful of those I grew up with still out there riding and competing. And the ones that rode circles around me as a junior? Haven't seen them in the show ring since.

The element about careers ending at college is a very interesting one. Is it because the bigEq seems to be an endall?? Or is it because parental funding typically stops?? I think maybe the latter contributed to the former.

[DMK]

I thought it was good, but I think it painted the 20-somethings with a rather large brush. I know many college aged kids - myself included - who would love nothing more than to spend all day every day around horses and horse shows. However, I don't happen to have a trust fund. In the USA, it costs lots and lots of money to have the time and horses that are required. It isn't a lack of dedication, it's a lack of funds.

I don't think its a particularly broad brush or one unique to equestrian sports. I think the amount of time, money and effort that Michael Phelps, Nastia Luikan, Venus or Serena Williams and all their families have put into their respective successes is staggering. Such is the nature of being an elite of any sport. Just the 10,000 hour "rule" demands total commitment that quite frankly, most of us aren't interested in. What differs between equestrian and other olympic sports is the system of finding and fostering those that are are up to the 10K rule and then have the talent to be an elite.

[Coreene]

Agree except for one point: European governments do not pay for equestrian sports, the $$ comes from SPONSORS, and the corporations are also funding national programs - developing young riders etc. Their approach to sponsorships includes ROI for the sponsor, not Gimme Gimme And I'll Put Your Logo On My Saddle Pad crap.

[justathought]

But that's where the 20 year olds get stuck. They should have been spending all that time at the barn when they were children. By the time they're 20, they should have become very competent riders with lots of marketable horsemanship skills. At 20, they should be WORKING- maybe not being paid to ride the big time horses, but being paid to groom, clip, exercise horses or maybe being paid to manage the office. Maybe being paid to handle the marketing for sales horses, caring for small farms while owners are on vacation- the list is endless. Maybe they get a real job in the outside world and fit riding in after work.

The 20 year olds look around and say, "hey, why aren't I being paid the big bucks to ride the nice horses?" Sure, they rode and showed as Juniors, but they never learned the horsemanship. A Bucker? No way! Body clip? Don't the grooms do that? I think that's the problem.

IMHO this is not a fair characterization of the riders in their 20s that I know. Certainly it is true of some. But IME there are a awful lot of 20s that spent the time, worked the hours, and struggled to get to do stuff as a junior. Many of them are more than competent riders, excellent grooms and could manage a barn if given an opportunity. I've watched those kids - they eat live and breathe horses. Many many of them were working students throughout their junior year (it was the only way they had junior years at all) but they just were not lucky enough to land at a top barn or with someone that lent them the right horse to get to the top - they made do with the less expensive, older, less talented and not so fancy mount. Many of them went to the national finals and groomed for themselves - but you don't know their names and they never became that visible.

They are willing to work now. They dream of a professional career - but the jobs you suggest - without a commitment to provide a mount, even a lower quality one - will not get them there. The jobs you suggest won't even allow them enough income to support a horse.

Before we dump on the twenty year olds - let's be a little more real about what they face if they have to rely on their own resources.

[englishivy]

There is a huge emphasis on competition- before riders can even canter! I personally don't believe in awarding year end awards in walk/trot or ground poles.

I am glad you made this point, Janet. I firmely believe this attitude of "everyone gets a ribbon, everyone has the right to show" (I remember it being a privilege, no?) and "the ribbons on your wall, not horsemanship, is what makes you a great rider" is what is ruining our sport.

I remember how great it was to finally be allowed to show offsite; it was like "making" the varisty show team at my barn. It was an honor, and I worked hard for it!! And forget about chasing year end awards until you could do 2'6 or higher; if you were doing SS or under, your focus was improving and getting better, not ribbons.

A case in point: Last year I had two young ladies (about 12-13) inquire about boarding & training.

How long have you been riding? A couple of years.
What kind of horse do you own? A WB. But he is very green which is why we need to move barn; our trainer doesn't ride and we need help with his training (that's an entirely different topic: selling too green a horse to too young a rider and then not even helping with the training :rolleyes:).
Are you showing? yes, & we'd like to continue showing a certain local series as we're chasing points.
What divisions? Crossrails.

You are chasing points in crossrails? Seriously?

My response was somewhere along the lines of "if week after week you are cleaning up in crossrails, perhaps it's time to move up a division? I firmly feel those classes are to prepare you for the hunter ring, and once you've demonstrated that you are ready, it's time to go. That is why those classes are not recognized by USEF or even our local hunter association."

Guess they found a trainer that would let them chase those points as they didn't come to me.

[LisaB]

John is spot on.
About the 20 somethings. In eventing, I do see a lot of riders putting the hours in. Maybe it's because I have an instructor who takes no prisoners and if you want to train with her and do the YR's and such, you better get your butt in gear or you're out. But they are out there.
I do wonder how the jumpers do it. This sport is extremely expensive and if you want to make it, you have to have a huge support system. That's sad.
We also have a problem with horseflesh as he stated.
But even the discovered horses get screwed. I know of one horse recently that got the shaft because of one very selfish owner. Owner was offered a lot of money for the horse and the new rider would have totally kicked ass on the horse but owner decided horse should be put out to pasture instead. Selfish!
I don't know about the Chef's for jumpers and dressage but I do know that CMP is not well respected and therefore, it's hard for him to teach even if he is correct. Some of the team riders don't ride with him. So if you're an elite rider, you don't get those extra tips and tricks like you should to make you even better because you don't respect the Chef.

[Jsalem]

Justathought- I was that person too. It took a long, long time. But now I own a top hunter. It can be done. I think the point we're making with the youngsters is that they want to be at the top and seem to be stuck. "I don't have a trust fund, so it'll never happen." The riders that you speak of, that have worked and ridden bad horses and have the skills- they're in good shape if they really want it. They may have to get a "real" job to pay for a horse, but if they can ride and make up a greenie- they can have a top horse. They can also do it in the horse industry if they're willing to work hard and be patient.

[hrsgirl07]

I am a 20 year old college student and have been around horse for the past 12 years. At this point I can honestly say that my horsemanship skills surpass my riding skills. I am still the "kid" that spends as much time as possible at the barn, watching lessons, helping the vet and farrier, helping to teach basic horsemanship to the lesson kids. Throughout my riding career, I have had some bad horse, some bad trainers, and some bad falls. All of these things along with a lack of financial and emotional/ mental support from my parents have perhaps at least in the short term limited how far I have come with my riding.

I am still out there in the trenches, spending late nights cold hosing and walking the horses that need, pulling manes, and bathing the lesson horses that are all but forgotten when the hour is up, and hanging out at he shows or working the in gate just so I can be around the animals I love and learning from watching those who are more skilled at the mounted portion of horse manship.

[spirithorse22]

When I was a 20 something (not that long ago!) I did the dirty, rode the dirty, and lived the dirty. Eventually went out on my own as a pro and started at the bottom of dirty all over again :) But I grew up in the 90s, before the full grooming takeover, and willingly immersed myself in the dirt without even a thought of compensation. And I learned it was much more fun as a kid :D

I would say there are a handful of those I grew up with still out there riding and competing. And the ones that rode circles around me as a junior? Haven't seen them in the show ring since.

The element about careers ending at college is a very interesting one. Is it because the bigEq seems to be an endall?? Or is it because parental funding typically stops?? I think maybe the latter contributed to the former.

Just to add another college aged voice in the mix, I find this last statement (my emphasis) very interesting. I think that sudden lack of parental funding throws everyone for a loop. Suddenly, if you're trying for a career (which means involvement in student groups, NOT partying, but real societies where internships, etc. are available to members), holding down scholarships for tuition, working part time to pay for gas and groceries, etc. and your parents have drawn the line at paying rent but not for horses...that's a reality check.

I was the kid that was dropped off at 7AM and picked up at 7PM, riding whatever I could ride, then my own horses, then grooming/working wherever. Volunteering to muck out show barns for show credits, etc. Groom, to head groom, to stable manager, to assistant trainer, working my way up the 'ladder'. I don't think that just b/c someone decides its not 'possible' for them to juggle that route and the intensity it requires for a person to really be successful at riding/showing while simulanteously persuing a career (internships plus grades in college) it means they are no longer as willing to 'do the dirty work'. I think, for some people, it's an honest calculation of "work now, ride later." Just my 2cents. But agreed that *most* young people these days want to play Wii and be handed work opportunity. I see it all the time in school and compare them to the riders I know! I think in a certain sense the horse world (I'm an eventer) is a last hold-out to this type of mentality!

Interesting article though. And now, I'm off to class. :lol:

[lesson junkie]

Do kids spend all day at the barn any more? When I was a kid (geeze-I sound like my dad!) we would be dropped at the barn in the morning, and have to be dragged away around dark. We played a lot-it wasn't all serious equitation-but I don't see the girls at my high end H/J barn having the freedom to hang out. We groomed, moved jumps, cleaned tack, played in the creek behind the barn-stuff like that.

The mothers are with these kids all the time, too-I guess to shuttle them to their next activity.

And-maybe the grass is not so green on the other side-look at the mess the Germans have now.

[Jumphigh83]

I have seen in gate arguments over eligibility and points in PRE beginner (yes PRE beginner) divisions. It could be argued that these divisions could or should be offered, but a YEAR END AWARD for showing at the absolute lowest possible level? That's like me going to Carnegie Hall and wanting to play me version of chopsticks with the real musicians! We all need a place to start but a place to stall out is a whole 'nuther story!
As far a promoting the aspiring rider, what a difficult road. The most successful young riders are those with a deep well to go to for financing, horses and training, almost without exception. I am not sure how to change this but it a fact of life. You can work pretty hard and still not get where you want to be!

[hideyourheart03]

IMHO this is not a fair characterization of the riders in their 20s that I know. Certainly it is true of some. But IME there are a awful lot of 20s that spent the time, worked the hours, and struggled to get to do stuff as a junior. Many of them are more than competent riders, excellent grooms and could manage a barn if given an opportunity. I've watched those kids - they eat live and breathe horses. Many many of them were working students throughout their junior year (it was the only way they had junior years at all) but they just were not lucky enough to land at a top barn or with someone that lent them the right horse to get to the top - they made do with the less expensive, older, less talented and not so fancy mount. Many of them went to the national finals and groomed for themselves - but you don't know their names and they never became that visible.

They are willing to work now. They dream of a professional career - but the jobs you suggest - without a commitment to provide a mount, even a lower quality one - will not get them there. The jobs you suggest won't even allow them enough income to support a horse.

Before we dump on the twenty year olds - let's be a little more real about what they face if they have to rely on their own resources.


Exactly.

I was/am that girl. Starting at 12, yes 12, I spent all my time on school breaks at the barn being an absolute barn rat. I did anything and everything. Barely ever got to ride, but loved every minute of it and learned a ton. I did the 4H route and had to do everything. At 15, I won a National Championship in Horse Judging. Not just hunters, I could judge anything - any type of halter, WP, any type of eq, Saddle Seat, Morgans, draft horses, driving, heck even reining. At 16, I became a working student. I've discussed this multiple times on this board, but it was at a LBNT, but I didn't get the rides or horses. I had my inexperienced BigEq horse with whom I did well, but never got a big break in the form of catch rides, or even extra rides.

At 19, I started spending my summers with a BNT. I've learned a ton and can adequately manage the barn of 60+ on my own if necessary. I had some big responsibilities thrown on me and I rose to every challenge. I was the go to person. Heck, I even got a job offer permanently for when I graduate (and he even tried to convince me to drop out of college to work for him full time now, but I'm not gonna even think about doing that). But I was still beat out for the rides. Any type of rides. By other girls who had been to Finals, etc. I can't really go into all of it without getting into too much detail, but essentially I was too valuable and good at the OFF horse stuff to get to ride on any regular basis. The other girls HADN'T done any of the off horse stuff, therefore couldn't and got to ride. It's like a Catch-22.


Now, here I am, a 20-something and I am totally burnt out. I did everything right, took the right route, and am now seriously reconsidering any desire I have to do this for a living. This is not saying that I want it easy. I KNOW it will be hard and I embrace that. But hard and rewarding is much different than the hard and frustrating that I have experienced consistently at multiple different farms. I'm not claiming to be a rider worthy of getting big rides or showing clients horses or getting horses bought for me. But NO ONE is willing to take the chance on anyone who doesn't have a big record. This is all I've wanted to do since I was a pre-teen, and now I'm starting to reconsider it. I know I have many more years of "doing my time" but IMO each one should keep building, not being stagnant.


Okay. End rant.
But, I totally agree with justathought.

[Trixie]

If you were really dedicated, you'd work at a barn all day, regardless of the pay and the fact you may have to live rough.

I don’t necessarily think that’s the most realistic way of looking at things, for a lot of folks. You can be “dedicated” all you want, but “dedicated” doesn’t put food on the table. How many times do we hear that working in the horse industry is “long days” for low pay?

And further, suggesting someone work in a barn “all day” – many of these jobs don’t allow time for school. They won’t help you if you get hurt. Many don’t offer healthcare. Yet, we hear “if you were really dedicated” constantly. And you want to know why 20somethings are aiming for careers that pay FOR the horses instead?

This, I think is different than the child playing 8 sports and wanting to be at the top of each. It’s the complication of trying to make a realistic life plan in an industry that barely pays cost of living. How many ads have we all seen for people to work in the industry, even with riding as a perk, paying maybe $300-400 a week? In those cases, it’s not about NOT being dedicated. It’s about burning out because you can’t afford to live. Even if you do love it.


The riders that you speak of, that have worked and ridden bad horses and have the skills- they're in good shape if they really want it. They may have to get a "real" job to pay for a horse, but if they can ride and make up a greenie- they can have a top horse. They can also do it in the horse industry if they're willing to work hard and be patient.

This I totally agree with. If you put the work in, the rewards will come. But yes, it takes longer than those who are blessed with money and time. And perhaps it will be on a smaller scale.

I was another one of those kids in the barn, all day, all the time. Would still be if I could be. But I had to make a choice when I was in school, and weighed my options pretty carefully. And decided that if I ever become a pro, I would have a small barn, subsidized largely by me, because in spite of how dedicated I am to the sport – it’s VERY, VERY, VERY difficult to succeed and make a living in horses. Moreso than in most other careers.


Look at the Hunter Derby. The specs for last year made it very inviting for the amateurs to compete. Now, I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy seeing the great Junior riders competing against the pros- the best Juniors were thrilling to watch. But I did see some of the smaller Derbies in the southeast having more Junior riders than pros. I saw the pros out there coaching amateurs for that class and not riding themselves. IMO there were too many amateurs "giving it a try" to make the class really special.

The amateurs pay the bills. I’m happy to see them give it a go because the higher “real” Derby format promotes much better riding. As an ammy, I have some goals for myself, I'd like to up my level of riding as much as possible. I don't have the money to subsidize the goals of a pro.

[Jsalem]

Just like any sport, there are going to be some aspiring pro riders that just aren't good enough. Not every devoted, hard working student is a super star rider without the financial wherewithal to go on. That's not really about money, it's about talent. Just like any sport, only the few will ever reach that elite status. A combination of Talent, Work Ethic, and Money is needed. You gotta have TWO of those things. One? Not gonna work.

Also, for the 20 year olds, you're right that the sport sometimes takes a back seat to the reality of supporting one's self. There's a good reason that most of the top professionals are older than 20's.

Fortunately for riders, you can be in your 40's and 50's and be at the top of your game. Not so for most athletes. So in a way, riders have a bit of an advantage.

[luvs2ridewbs]

I just wanted to comment on why kids aren't hanging out at the barn all day. Many barns no longer allow this. We live in a society where children need to be supervized constantly or else a law suit prevails. It used to be that if a child got hurt- say broke an arm falling off the jungle gym, the parents would tell the child, well you shouldn't have done that. In today's world, the parents would sue the school for not watching their child. Many barns do not want the added responsibility and potential liability of children just hanging out at the barn. The fear of being sued overwhelms the desire to immerse the child in horsemanship.
Edited to add, building a greenie up from baby to show horse does take money even if you are doing all the training, showing, care on your own. I have been lucky to develop two nice 3ft, pre-green hunters but my dream of being back in the 3'6 ring has yet to be realized. Part of the reason for this is that today's horse prices even for young stock (with the potential for the 3'6) is beyond what I can afford. But maybe the 3rd time will be the charm. :)

[hellerkm]

WOW this post took a major turn !!! dumping on 20 somethings who can't or won't put in the time to become bigger better riders is NOT what the author of this article is even talking about. There are PLENTY OF 20 somethings who DO put in the time, have the skills AND the dedication and STILL go unnoticed. There are only so many BNT trainers who need working students, so I am sure there are WAY more 20 somethings than opportunities.
What this article is discussing is the fact that as a country we don't support the sport of riding or promote it as well as other countries.
We are a male driven nation, ( sorry but its true) and football, baseball and NASCAR top the ratings for sports viewing. Unfortunately there are fewer male riders than female riders, so Equestrian sports will never receive the big name sponsors like the above mentioned sports do. Other countries are not as inundated with national sports teams as we are. Yes there is soccer but that ranks far below in the amount of viewers the US has each year for football, baseball , NASCAR and hockey.
Until OUR sport receives or retains the same amount of interest corporate sponsorship outside of horse related companies is going to be hard to attain.

[DMK]

let's run through the Olympic list:

Beezie Madden - no trust fund that i am aware of
McLain Ward - no trust fund
Laura Kraut - no trust fund
Will Simpson - no idea

Eric Lamaze -seriously NO trust fund.

But you can bet that every last one of them had their 10,000 hours in way, way, way before 95% of their age group peers. And you know they and their families were making huge sacrifices towards the single-minded pursuit of this discipline long before they were 25. I honestly cannot accept that they got where they were because good horses landed in their lap or they had a ton of discretionary income to acquire those horses. I will accept that they did have the good fortune/luck/whatever you want to call it to be born with a certain amount of talent that most of us are not born with, that they had either families or coaches at a young age that were willing to sacrifice their time & money right alongside these riders, to do what it took to make it happen, and that circumstances favored them because young children cannot go out and make these things happen, they do need adults to somehow trigger/manage the process. And nothing is to stop you from starting when you are an adult, but let's face it, the odds are considerably less in your favor at that point. That's what makes the case of Michael Matz just that much more amazing.

Yes, Beezie, McClain and Eric are amazing riders, but no doubt they recognize that there is a certain amount of luck to partner with an equally talented horse that "clicks" with you at just the right time in both of your performance careers.

But by the same token, a person born with the same natural talent and a ton more $$$ will NEVER be the same success without personal and family/coach/caregiver support network commitment to the 10K rule.

In case it isn't obvious, I think Malcolm Gladwell's discussion of "elites" in Outliers is dead on.

[Trixie]

Until OUR sport receives or retains the same amount of interest corporate sponsorship outside of horse related companies is going to be hard to attain.

You know, this is always curious to me. It costs more to show on the "A" circuit than it does to compete in many other horse sports. The difference being, they've found sponsorships, and many hunter/jumper shows don't seem to bother. Are we trying hard enough?

[Jsalem]

Yes!

We had a summer camp this summer. It was staffed by my very competent assistant trainer (who is a mother), along with 1 very competent 16 year old and several 14 year olds. This was for 8 kids.

I got a phone call one afternoon after camp by a very upset parent. She was horrified that her 7 year old daughter got in the car after camp and cried because she was hot and thirsty. Mother had forgotten to pack child's swim suit, so child wasn't participating in the "slip and slide" end of camp activity- she was just watching. Said child "wasn't comfortable" asking a counselor for water and "wasn't comfortable" walking 20 feet to the air conditioned lounge. She blamed us for not reminding the child to drink and mom wasn't comfortable leaving the child in our care for the rest of camp. I cheerfully refunded her money. Lord have mercy....

[hunter-eventer-hunter]

Serah, thanks for posting. I like his conciseness and I agree with his points. The participants of "This is why the Europeans beat us" thread should wander over her. . . maybe a real discussion could ensue??

And I agree with that. I started the thred and it tuned into a train wreck, and I left the scene of the accidnet.

John Strassburger has also been a good voice in the Eventing world. I am glad that his letter is getting some face time here.

Ditton on the comments about shows and ribbons before basic horsemanship. At the end of the day, what do the ribbons and awards mean as a horseman. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

I wish I had the power to take horse shows away for year and see who still was around the barn.

HEH

[MIKES MCS]

John Strassburger email again states the obvious , which has been noted over and over again.. While we have sat back and observed all that is wrong with the American system of riding as it has evolved over the past 20 or more years , and debated the issues , we as a country have yet to come up with any answers . While our riding has suffered greatly the one thing that has flourished is the business of riding and showing , (that is for the ”professional”) teachers can make upwards of $100,000.00 a year teaching 20 hours a week if they have the right location and personality .. “Trainers “ can make $100’s of thousand a year selling imported horses fully developed by someone else with little or no effort or knowledge of how to achieve that themselves. You can observe all you want but the reality is plenty of sub qualified people are making lots of money off even less qualified riders who’s only attribute is the thickness of their wallets.. We have a well oiled system in this country and those who have the most money who could contribute to the overall health of our teams don’t. Why, because they are to busy contributing to the “ sub par careers of their children and their children’s trainers. Their money continues to develop their own self interests .. And can you blame them.. Why should they pay someone elses way , when their money can and does get their children to the top of the sport . And the results are , well what we have now..

[justathought]

And I agree with that. I started the thred and it tuned into a train wreck, and I left the scene of the accidnet.

John Strassburger has also been a good voice in the Eventing world. I am glad that his letter is getting some face time here.

Ditton on the comments about shows and ribbons before basic horsemanship. At the end of the day, what do the ribbons and awards mean as a horseman. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

I wish I had the power to take horse shows away for year and see who still was around the barn.

HEH

Hi - Your original post was outstanding - and it did take an unexpected turn.... Horsemanship and support are truly crucial features for success and we need to figure out how to get more of both. I agree it would be nice to take horse shows away for a year - and the 20s I spoke about would still be there - learning and working

Sorry for my part in diverting the focus - and I fear that I am about to do it again.....

[magnolia73]

And the results are , well what we have now..


A team showjumping gold and an individual bronze?
We are consistently competitive internationally- it ebbs and flows. Right now eventing is declining, but there is a lot of upheaval in that sport in and of itself. And we do have at least 5-6 eventers who are consistent in international company. There is so much dynamics in that sport between horrible wrecks, changes in course design, emphasis on new skills. Dressage seems to slowly get higher profile. We probably lag in dressage the most, but even 20 years, young riders were not focused on dressage. Showjumping seems to bring cyclical domination. Some years are good, some bad. This year was good. More and more juniors do GP's at a young age.

[MyGiantPony]

I hate to say it, but precious few American kids or 20-somethings really want to put in the hours necessary to become an elite rider or true horseman. For a couple of generations, our society has encouraged busy-ness but not dedication. Our society has encouraged kids to do a lot of things—play soccer, play tennis, join school clubs or the band and do your homework for hours each day—but told them that focusing on doing one thing really well is too narrow.

I'm curious about this piece - not being familiar with parenting in other countries.

Do other countries really have more 20 somethings willing to put in the necessary hours? Do parents not over-book their kids in other countries?

I don't think the issue really has anything to do with the age group. American kids are excelling at elite levels in tennis, gymnastics, swimming, golf...

It's the sport itself, not the work ethic of the up and coming age group.

I think he's more on target with the financial issues.

[vacation1]

The slap at young rider dedication is silly. The pro horse world seems to have based its core economy on on well-to-do families, but complains endlessly about the drawbacks of this arrangement now that these families have changed and the parents are more involved with their kids. I roll my eyes too at modern parents who take their 10-year-olds trick-or-treating; I was one of the last generations that basically lived like a feral cat all summer. But the change is mostly a positive one, and sometimes I wonder exactly what it is people want - kids who are dedicated and have a strong work ethic, or kids who are basically desperate enough for a parent figure to latch onto a barn and a trainer, and throw herself blindly into a career with very little chance of financial reward? Not to mention most of these kids are girls; the fact that modern parents have more belief that their daughters can have financial success no doubt contributes to their lack of enthusiasm for little Emily becoming a groom.

Just like any sport, there are going to be some aspiring pro riders that just aren't good enough. Not every devoted, hard working student is a super star rider without the financial wherewithal to go on. That's not really about money, it's about talent. Just like any sport, only the few will ever reach that elite status. A combination of Talent, Work Ethic, and Money is needed. You gotta have TWO of those things.

And luck. True, to some extent people can 'make their own luck' through hard work and/or talent and/or money, but the only thing that can really replace good luck in a bid for success is a lot of money, and even that doesn't always tip the balance.

[cyberbay]

Well, I don't blame teens for just riding and not caring for their horses. They don't know any better and are simply responding to the behaviors set by their trainer, and parents.

The jumper riders listed all were established already as junior riders, so their roll-over into the senior ranks was smoother. It's also a different era when they got started, and I think that's the essential difference. Those came from the era of horse showing as 'sport,' while today it is an industry. Also, there are standards in turnout today at the ring that are embarrassingly unintelligent and a real assault on the budget, what with costly monogrammed scrims and $500 stable blankets, and custom-painted rigs. Dial down the ancillary costs to horse showing, and you might be able to have more people involved with horses (the crowd needed to underwrite a young, entry-level trainer). If these people are interested in 'horsemanship,' it would help to learn that a horse knows NO difference between an off-the-rack scrim and something from H'wares or Triple Crown with a monogram.

Meaning, is the horse show world about horsemanship or is it a 20-something coming to the ring with a $250 scrim? Is that what the complaint is about? Not being able to seque into a nice facility, nice footing, nice horses, nice clientele?

Established, long term BNTs are allowed to have a nice facility, nice horses, and a supportuing clientele etc. They've earned it. But I don't enjoy seeing 20-somethings (and older) aping this behavior. And I see a lot of this. A LOT of emphasis on the 'show,' and it makes me wonder how there can be any complaint when the emphasis is so wrong for such entry-level horsepeople. I would rather see them earn an honest living teaching beginners, handling a dusty ring, and working with moderate-talent animals. THOSE things make up the horse biz.

Honestly, how many BNTs own their own facility outright and on their own? I can barely name one, if that.

[hellerkm]

You know, this is always curious to me. It costs more to show on the "A" circuit than it does to compete in many other horse sports. The difference being, they've found sponsorships, and many hunter/jumper shows don't seem to bother. Are we trying hard enough?

NO we do not!! I am not sure why? We use PLENTY of products that are not provided exclusively by Equine companies, I can find about 50 in my tack trunk right now, each of the companies could promote at horse related events.
I find the horse world "disjointed", disciplines do not work together for the good of all. I do believe we could use better cooperation and more promotion!

[Summit Springs Farm]

Look at the Hunter Derby. The specs for last year made it very inviting for the amateurs to compete. Now, I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy seeing the great Junior riders competing against the pros- the best Juniors were thrilling to watch. But I did see some of the smaller Derbies in the southeast having more Junior riders than pros. I saw the pros out there coaching amateurs for that class and not riding themselves. IMO there were too many amateurs "giving it a try" to make the class really special.

Excuse me? Who is paying the bills? The problem is the Hunter Derby SHOULD be for the amateurs/Jr's.

What the some pros don't seem to get is this horse show industry is for the amateurs and junior riders. Some pros seem to forget they are their for clients, not the other way around.:eek:

[justathought]

Justathought- I was that person too. It took a long, long time. But now I own a top hunter. It can be done. I think the point we're making with the youngsters is that they want to be at the top and seem to be stuck. "I don't have a trust fund, so it'll never happen." The riders that you speak of, that have worked and ridden bad horses and have the skills- they're in good shape if they really want it. They may have to get a "real" job to pay for a horse, but if they can ride and make up a greenie- they can have a top horse. They can also do it in the horse industry if they're willing to work hard and be patient.

Glad to hear you add this to your original post.... that it is possible, even if it is difficult.

Of course, the collorary to this is that there must be professionals that are willing to take a chance on that young rider with plenty of desire, an enormous work ethic, and enough talent BUT who do not have a name, and do not have a track record.

And that brings us back to the original post. If professionals are already over committed to clients and showing and prepping - their incentive to dig deeper to help the next generation along is even more challenged. Already they have sacrificed their riding to clients who do pay... to bring along the next generation they must sacrificed their riding to those who only work in exchange for their services.

Sure - the 20s kids may be able to find a young prospect, and they may be able to bring it along - but not without some mentoring and that too is missing.

Hideyourheart captures the problems when she says "Heck, I even got a job offer permanently for when I graduate (and he even tried to convince me to drop out of college to work for him full time now, but I'm not gonna even think about doing that). But I was still beat out for the rides. Any type of rides. By other girls who had been to Finals, etc. I can't really go into all of it without getting into too much detail, but essentially I was too valuable and good at the OFF horse stuff to get to ride on any regular basis. The other girls HADN'T done any of the off horse stuff, therefore couldn't and got to ride. It's like a Catch-22. "

All of it has to come together - the work, the talent, the dedication, the luck, and a helping - not controlling - hand to make it work... And while that is not a change from the past - the real dollar costs today and the pressures on professionals make it more difficult

[klmck63]

let's run through the Olympic list:

Beezie Madden - no trust fund that i am aware of
McLain Ward - no trust fund
Laura Kraut - no trust fund
Will Simpson - no idea

Eric Lamaze -seriously NO trust fund.

But you can bet that every last one of them had their 10,000 hours in way, way, way before 95% of their age group peers. And you know they and their families were making huge sacrifices towards the single-minded pursuit of this discipline long before they were 25. I honestly cannot accept that they got where they were because good horses landed in their lap or they had a ton of discretionary income to acquire those horses. I will accept that they did have the good fortune/luck/whatever you want to call it to be born with a certain amount of talent that most of us are not born with, that they had either families or coaches at a young age that were willing to sacrifice their time & money right alongside these riders, to do what it took to make it happen, and that circumstances favored them because young children cannot go out and make these things happen, they do need adults to somehow trigger/manage the process. And nothing is to stop you from starting when you are an adult, but let's face it, the odds are considerably less in your favor at that point. That's what makes the case of Michael Matz just that much more amazing.

Yes, Beezie, McClain and Eric are amazing riders, but no doubt they recognize that there is a certain amount of luck to partner with an equally talented horse that "clicks" with you at just the right time in both of your performance careers.

But by the same token, a person born with the same natural talent and a ton more $$$ will NEVER be the same success without personal and family/coach/caregiver support network commitment to the 10K rule.

In case it isn't obvious, I think Malcolm Gladwell's discussion of "elites" in Outliers is dead on.

I thought the article was great, but I'm starting to take some offense to what's going on here. I am not quite a 20 something, only 18 but I feel that a lot of people are likely in a similar situation as I am.

I put in the hours, I groom my own horses at shows, do my own chores, I know all about feed, I know all about treating and diagnosing lameness, I know all about different tack options, I can set up a course myself, I can design exercises myself, I have studied dressage a long with jumping, I read the books, I do the research. I do the work. I am not perfect and I'm FAR from knowing everything I would need to know to be a professional but I would say that there is nothing lacking in my search for knowledge and betterment. I spend all my spare time at the barn, eavesdropping and asking questions, taking care of whatever horse I can help with including my own.

This all sounds great on paper. This is what you're saying this generations lazy twenty somethings are lacking, right?

There will always be the twenty somethings that want to have it all handed to them but there are an equal or greater amount who ARE putting in the hours.

My problem that I believe to be shared with the rest of my generation? Society. I don't have a trust fund, but I am well to do and despite the fact that it is a stretch most of the time, I have enough financial and emotional support from my parents to do all the horse stuff. When I graduated from highschool, it was not an option to go get a working student position at a big name barn. I was going to University, no ifs ands or buts. Not my choice. Bye-bye horses if I so much as thought about quitting school. As long as I'm in University, I'm not allowed to have a job. I must focus on school. I must get good marks. Otherwise, as my parents see it, I will never have a successful career. While this would be a fantastic deal if I was interested in getting a job that I need a degree for, I'm not, really.

I went to private school, so the slice of society in general is a bit off, but two out of 83 people in my graduating class were not going to University and those two are going next year. University has become the ultimate goal and other professions or choices are 'lesser'.

I love my parents, but as two very educated people, they equate professional horse back rider with starving artist. They're worried that if I don't have a degree as a back up I won't get anywhere in life.

So, my problem isn't horse power (yet), it isn't lack of determination, it isn't lack of time spent or effort put in, it isn't lack of funds (yet), it's lack of understanding in the general population that this is actually something you can make a career out of.

Anyways. That's just my little rant. I'm going to do the University thing. I'm doing the riding thing at the same time and hopefully will realize my dream of going pro, it will just have to be after I'm done what society and my parents dictate I must do.

[dags]

Excuse me? Who is paying the bills? The problem is the Hunter Derby SHOULD be for the amateurs/Jr's.

What the some pros don't seem to get is this horse show industry is for the amateurs and junior riders. Some pros seem to forget they are their for clients, not the other way around.:eek:

Now, this is exactly what the author of the letter is speaking about. Because pros are running around catering to waayyy too many clients they cannot pursue their own careers, and last I checked there weren't too many amateurs representing us in the Olympics. Some, but not many, and certainly not the majority. And the horse show industry is for the amateurs and the juniors, what? I thought it was for the horses. Maybe what it's been bastardized into is about the jrs and ams, but it was originally meant to show off nice horses.

[Jsalem]

Summit Springs- I don't agree that the Hunter Derbies are FOR the amateurs. They are to be a showcase for the top HORSES. And let's face it- the top professionals can get the best performances out of the top horses. I think the point that the OP makes is that the top professionals are working to serve the amateurs- who do it for their own fun- not for the good of the sport as a whole. In fact, your post kinda proves his point.

To take it out of the realm of the hunters- buying a fabulously talented jumper that could go on to be a major Grand Prix horse for a top rider- and having it serve as a Jr Jumper or A/O jumper- sure, it's the owner's money and if they want to buy that horse as a cross rail horse, they can certainly do that. It doesn't help the US win Gold Medals.

[englishivy]

But you can bet that every last one of them had their 10,000 hours in way, way, way before 95% of their age group peers. And you know they and their families were making huge sacrifices towards the single-minded pursuit of this discipline long before they were 25.



Gladwell also say that when talent meets opportunity, great things can happen. How many great talented riders never get that opportunity? Call it luck, right time/right place, whatever. But you can put 10K hours into jumping donkey's (cause that's the only opportunity you got), but you won't get to Olympics.

Ultimately, I believe the key to become great at any sport is more than talent, opportunity, & money; it's the sacrifice of the athlete AND family that makes the difference. I can imagine 15 years ago there were a couple Michael Phelps out there. Although they had the talent, they didn't have the support of their families to pursue swimming at that level. So they didn't get those extra practices in. They didn't miss school for those big league competitions. So they didn't get noticed at those competitions by that special coach. So no amazing opportunities that led to the even greater coach, greater commitment, and the 10K hours to be the best. It's a sad cycle.

What I see is in America is that we want "jack's of all trades and masters of none". Well-rounded is better than being excellent at one thing. As a result, most families don't see the need to sacrifice for a sport; they do it just enough to put it on the college application.

[MyGiantPony]

You know, this is always curious to me. It costs more to show on the "A" circuit than it does to compete in many other horse sports. The difference being, they've found sponsorships, and many hunter/jumper shows don't seem to bother. Are we trying hard enough?

Trxie - you bring up another good point...do we in the US have so many equine sport options, that the talent is spread out over more? If there were only dressage, show jumping and eventing to choose from, the talent pool would be a lot deeper.

I'm sure Europe has a bit of other sports such as reining and endurance, but not to the extent that we have, right?

[grandprixjump]

Most of the big name riders today, came in BEFORE "buy the win" was invented. Look at the number of high caliber horses that are sold to become someones baby sitter these days, because the buyer has $120k to spend, and wants to win in the A/O or A/A Divisions. The horse is great at that because it's 3 levels below what the horse is capable of.
Everyone says, for example, a GP rider should get the first horse to that level without a sponsor or real help, even if they find the diamond in the rough and get there, UNLESS they want to burn their horse up FAST, they probably only compete in 1 GP a month, while people with the good horses see the BNR's out there with 3 EVERY WEEK, how can a talented person compete with that kind of recognition without burning up their horse to be there more often...
So you get "their" a nice rider, but I don't see them often enough to send my horse to them. Their talented horse, gets hurt, needs to move down, and their back out of the game with NO CHANCE of getting another ride...

[Summit Springs Farm]

Now, this is exactly what the author of the letter is speaking about. Because pros are running around catering to waayyy too many clients they cannot pursue their own careers, and last I checked there weren't too many amateurs representing us in the Olympics. Some, but not many, and certainly not the majority. And the horse show industry is for the amateurs and the juniors, what? I thought it was for the horses. Maybe what it's been bastardized into is about the jrs and ams, but it was originally meant to show off nice horses.

Well, I don't know how shows could be for the horses, and I don't think we are speaking of the same pros, because the ones who ride in the Olympics don't have too many clients and they are working on their own career not training others.
And what it has been bastardized, if I can borrow your word;), I kinda like that word, is horse shows are all about the trainers, selling horses and owning the in gate, where back in the day, trainers worked hard for their clients and seemed, emphasis on seemed, the show was about people showing, both ammie/jrs and pros.

[Summit Springs Farm]

Summit Springs- I don't agree that the Hunter Derbies are FOR the amateurs. They are to be a showcase for the top HORSES. And let's face it- the top professionals can get the best performances out of the top horses. I think the point that the OP makes is that the top professionals are working to serve the amateurs- who do it for their own fun- not for the good of the sport as a whole. In fact, your post kinda proves his point.

To take it out of the realm of the hunters- buying a fabulously talented jumper that could go on to be a major Grand Prix horse for a top rider- and having it serve as a Jr Jumper or A/O jumper- sure, it's the owner's money and if they want to buy that horse as a cross rail horse, they can certainly do that. It doesn't help the US win Gold Medals.

Actually we are comparing apples and oranges here. The pros that train for the Olympic are not primary trainers at the horseshows. Yes a few are, but then they are training themselves and their horses.
And I know the hunter derby is to showcase nice horses, I just think it SHOULD be for the amateur/Jr or there should be one for the pros and one from non pros.
The notion that the ammies/Jr's are doing this for fun is maybe why we don't have more serious ambitious riders.

[Trixie]

Now, this is exactly what the author of the letter is speaking about. Because pros are running around catering to waayyy too many clients they cannot pursue their own careers, and last I checked there weren't too many amateurs representing us in the Olympics. Some, but not many, and certainly not the majority. And the horse show industry is for the amateurs and the juniors, what? I thought it was for the horses. Maybe what it's been bastardized into is about the jrs and ams, but it was originally meant to show off nice horses.

But there are a lot of amateurs out there that flat can't afford to subsidize their pro's riding goals.

That's also a catch 22 with the pros, because even if you work your butt off and ride wonderfully, if someone else isn't subsidizing it, you're unlikely to be able to afford to compete consistently at a higher level anyway.

[wanderlust]

Justathought- I was that person too. It took a long, long time. But now I own a top hunter. It can be done. I think the point we're making with the youngsters is that they want to be at the top and seem to be stuck. "I don't have a trust fund, so it'll never happen." The riders that you speak of, that have worked and ridden bad horses and have the skills- they're in good shape if they really want it. They may have to get a "real" job to pay for a horse, but if they can ride and make up a greenie- they can have a top horse. They can also do it in the horse industry if they're willing to work hard and be patient.

To throw a little reality in here... just to buy a young/green 3-4yo that is purpose-bred and has real potential for the big jumper ring is going to cost you somewhere between 15k and 40k (or even more). Even if you find a gem off the track or in a backyard somewhere, its still probably thousands to purchase. Add board, farrier, vet, shows. What 20-something just out of school has that kind of money? The median household income of the US is somewhere in the 50k range, less taxes, less mortgage/rent, less food, less debt payments, less transportation costs, less medical costs, etc.

There is a giant amount of luck involved with getting talented junior/young adults into the right opportunity. The majority of the time, that luck involves having highly supportive family with available disposable income. Just sayin'.

[Summit Springs Farm]

Jsalem- don't get me wrong, I love my pros,:D including you, I couldn't do what I do without you all! THANK YOU!!

I am just alittle fed up with the atmosphere at the shows, particularly the ingate.

[imapepper]

But that's where the 20 year olds get stuck. They should have been spending all that time at the barn when they were children. By the time they're 20, they should have become very competent riders with lots of marketable horsemanship skills. At 20, they should be WORKING- maybe not being paid to ride the big time horses, but being paid to groom, clip, exercise horses or maybe being paid to manage the office. Maybe being paid to handle the marketing for sales horses, caring for small farms while owners are on vacation- the list is endless. Maybe they get a real job in the outside world and fit riding in after work.

The 20 year olds look around and say, "hey, why aren't I being paid the big bucks to ride the nice horses?" Sure, they rode and showed as Juniors, but they never learned the horsemanship. A Bucker? No way! Body clip? Don't the grooms do that? I think that's the problem.

I agree with you in a way.....

The problem with getting that job, which I think is as important for a young pro to have just like a college education, is that the job does not pay enough to live. I don't know what everyone is paying these days, but when I was that 20 something wannabe pro, it was a darn good thing that my mom was not at all anxious for me to move out. I could not have lived on what I made working 6 days a week 12 hours a day. I got a great education in every horse job I have worked. I rode the greenies and problem horses. I have done all the medicating and managed the lesson program. I can honestly say that it was the best job in the world. But at the end of the day, I needed to make a choice between making a living or living off my parents forever.

This comes back to the money thing as SNL points out. She is totally correct. There are plenty of kids that want to eat, sleep and breathe horses but can't because of funds. I know of a talented teenager right now that is selling her horse because her parents have basically told her that they can't afford it anymore.

And funds are the same reason that pros are not getting the support to ride in showcase classes. Many of the people who are out there spending the $$$ want to ride themselves. It's not that they don't get the concept of supporting a world class horse and watching it suceed.....it's that they don't have enough money to support the pro and still ride at the level they want to themselves.

IMHO, I love that so many jrs and ammies are trying the Hunter Derbys I would be so happy to see the AA hunters and AO hunters to have more than 6 entries. Maybe the Hunter Derbys will be a draw to get more people interested in moving up in the Hunter divisions. I really hope that they leave that class a showcase class with bigger fences so it is something to aspire to participate. I think that classes like those make things more interesting and what would be great is if we could get someone great at marketing these classes and making them a social event like polo matches. The sport needs spectators and that will bring corporate sponsers which will help create the funds that we need to start supporting and developing our elite riders and horses.

[superpony123]

i see some valid points made in the OP, but i think that some points are dubious, such as that kids SHOULDN'T spend time focusing on school and education and other activities, in order to benefit riding. well, i'm sorry, but if i quit school now my opportunities would be VERY narrowed down. I'd be stuck mucking stalls and sweeping up after everyone. For my life. Or i could go flip burgers at Mcdonalds or something? Or be a janitor? Frankly, these jobs are NOT going to earn you the money that is NECESSARY to maintain the upkeep of a horse. Hey, i'm not rich, and I work my bum off as a working student at the barn. but i also take AP classes (i'm a senior) and i'm sure as heck applying to some very competitive schools. If I have way too much homework one week, I call up a friend and ask her if she'll ride my pony on whatever days this week that I won't be able to come in. I like it this way. No one forced me to take AP classes. I chose to do this because the regular classes don't challenge me enough for some subjects, and if I'm capable of a good grade in an AP class, then why wouldn't I do it? Looks good for college, anyway. I can ride in college. I'll join the IHSA team wherever I go. After college, I'll get a real job so I can afford to ride and such. But if you're trying to tell me that abandoning studies will somehow open up all my riding opportunities, then that's a VERY vicious cycle. You would not be able to afford it, and the chances of someone sponsoring you are tiny. success rate would be low. It would be impossible.

if i could clean saddles and sweep the isles all my life and be given a fancy AA working hunter horse in exchange, you bet i would take that opportunity hands down. but that's SO unrealistic. that just doesn't happen and shouldn't. money is tight for everyone.

the big guns need $ to support their competitions, which they rely upon us for. well, yes, i'd like to see our team win some more medals, but frankly i'd like to be able to ride too. my pockets aren't deep enough to pay for myself and beezie's horse at the same time. i donate $20 to the USET each year and they send me a mug or a blanket or something as a thanks and i get a tax return. i did my part, even if it's only $20, but that's what i can afford if i want to be able to ride and live too.

[Jsalem]

superpony, you sound like a smart kid.

I don't think that the OP was advocating abandoning school. In my observation, kids just have way too much homework. For the riding, it means that they come to the barn for their riding lesson and then have to run elsewhere rather than getting hands on horsemanship time. Honestly, AP classes, hours of homework and a prestigious college don't have nearly as much to do with your future success in the "real world" as your work ethic and attitude. Superpony sounds like a product of our current system that pushes kids to achieve! achieve! That's the key to success! Lots of these kids get out of college with a nice degree and are then unemployable.

[RugBug]

Bye-bye horses if I so much as thought about quitting school. As long as I'm in University, I'm not allowed to have a job. I must focus on school. I must get good marks. Otherwise, as my parents see it, I will never have a successful career. While this would be a fantastic deal if I was interested in getting a job that I need a degree for, I'm not, really.

For real? You're whinging because your parents won't pay for horses if you quit school or you can't get a job because you might not get good grades?

#1: You're an adult...you don't HAVE to go to college if you don't want to. But you may have to say bye-bye to the meal ticket your parents are providing. You are making the choice to allow them to control you. That isn't to say college isn't a good idea...but it's not the end all be all. I went to college (got good grades while working 30+ hours a week, BTW), my brother didn't go...in fact, he barely graduated high school. He's more successful than I am.

#2: Many, many people can work a full-time job while in school and get good grades.

#3: Many people find a way to go to school, get good grades, AND own a horse while paying for it all themselves.


I love my parents, but as two very educated people, they equate professional horse back rider with starving artist. They're worried that if I don't have a degree as a back up I won't get anywhere in life.

So, my problem isn't horse power (yet), it isn't lack of determination, it isn't lack of time spent or effort put in, it isn't lack of funds (yet), it's lack of understanding in the general population that this is actually something you can make a career out of.


No dear, you're problem is fear. You're scared to take the risks (quitting school, losing parent funding, possibly being the 'starving artist', etc) necessary to do what you want to do. Don't blame society or your parents for that...blame yourself. You're taking the safe route and that usually gets you nowhere.

[findeight]

... No one seems to understand the concept of keeping the horse for the professional to enjoy and promote in the pro divisions.

...the smaller Derbies in the southeast having more Junior riders than pros. I saw the pros out there coaching amateurs for that class and not riding themselves. IMO there were too many amateurs "giving it a try" to make the class really special.

Ummmm...while I usually agree with this poster, not here.

While I don't like the dummy down divisions at what should be elite level shows, they have made the sport more approachable for many on a purely recreational basis that just was never available before.

And Hunter Derbies at smaller shows SHOULD allow riders to develop so they can move up.

But, the statement about keeping a HUnter for the Pro to enjoy kind of grates on me. Are you kidding?

Tell you what, when I win the lottery, I will buy a quality Hunter for my Pro to enjoy-until then, I don't have anything my pro even needs to ride...even if I could afford to pay one to haul it. Much less maintain for their enjoyment.

The rest of this is something we have been over again and again, we do not match the horses with the riders and we do not support the riders financially.

But I still wonder about the statements about getting our butts kicked all the time in Show Jumping...we don't. We are competitive.

[DMK]

This all sounds great on paper. This is what you're saying this generations lazy twenty somethings are lacking, right?

actually, that's not in the same solar system as what i was saying. ;)

There is and has always been a small, select group of a population willing to put in the work it takes to be great in any discipline, be it sport or the cutting edge of technology. Nothing new about that. Committing 10,000 hours to achieve elite level competency is no small feat for anyone. Putting in 10K should give you elite level skills, but it does not mean you are the best of the best. And to ride 10,000 hours means many other aspects of your life must take second fiddle to riding. How is that different from an olympic gymnast or swimmer? They are wholeheartedly committed to perfecting their discipline in a way that 98% of the people engaged in their sport are not, even people who are very, very good at those sports by "normal" standards.

And, as I said, and as englishivy restated, talent has to meet opportunity. You may be born with that talent, but unless you commit to that level, and the people "funding" you commit to that level, how's it going to happen? But I think a great deal of that barrier is time/willingness, NOT money. Eric Lamaze in no way grew up with the finances that made that time commitment easy from that point of view, but there was some opportunity in his youth that gave him the ability to make that commitment.

And that commitment and talent wouldn't have mattered if he hadn't somehow found Hickstead at just the right moment in both their performance careers. There are plenty of great horses and riders, but we all know when we see those "perfect" partnerships like we see witrh Hickstead, Sapphire, Shutterfly and so on. That's a bit of luck no matter how talented or rich you are, and top riders are the first to admit it.

Derbies for A/Os because they pay the bills? By that logic we should make GPs 3'6 and derbies 2'6. :lol:

[Jsalem]

Well, my pro is my daughter! So it's easy for me. I get that lots wouldn't feel that way. I guess you could say that my daughter is kind of sponsored by me because I pay the freight. But is sure is good advertising for my training program!

[MyGiantPony]

For real? You're whinging because your parents won't pay for horses if you quit school or you can't get a job because you might not get good grades?

#1: You're an adult...you don't HAVE to go to college if you don't want to. But you may have to say bye-bye to the meal ticket your parents are providing. You are making the choice to allow them to control you.

#2: Many, many people can work a full-time job and get good grades.

#3: Many people find a way to go to school, get good grades, AND own a horse while doing so.

No dear, you're problem is fear. You're scared to take the risks (quitting school, losing parent funding, possibly being the 'starving artist', etc) necessary to do what you want to do. Don't blame society or your parents for that...blame yourself. You're taking the safe route and that usually gets you nowhere.

She's not whinging. She's being pragmatic. And smart. It would behoove more riders to extend their education to at least have a back up plan.

I truly never thought I'd see an adult tell a child "you're a chicken for pursuing a college education". wow. :eek:

[DMK]

What I see is in America is that we want "jack's of all trades and masters of none". Well-rounded is better than being excellent at one thing. As a result, most families don't see the need to sacrifice for a sport; they do it just enough to put it on the college application.

Admittedly we are a large country with a lot of resources, but I would argue our competitive standing in so many areas, from sport to innovative technology would suggest we have a good system for fostering elites in many areas.

However, I would fully understand that any parent would be reluctant to let their children abandon most other aspects of their youth, including to some degree, their education in pursuit of elite status. Because we all know that while 4 of the 5 kids with talent in the realm of [insert elite athlete's name] may have not ever got the opportunity, for every [insert elite athlete's name] there are going to be plenty of others that did work hard, got opportunity and just didn't make the top cut. I can't blame a parent for being worried that their kid could be one of those, left without the skills/education to support themselves.

[livinthedream]

So if a kid has the ingredients (the talent, the work ethic, the horse) do they get the opportunities from the current trainers? It seems like even when the teens or 20 somethings deliver, there still aren't the opportunities. Those opportunities are filled in this priority: the trainer's kid, the students with lots of money and horses, the kids on the special attention list (buying new horse, etc.). And if you do try to just hang at the barn waiting for an opportunity, you're told to leave because the trainer's don't want the kids hanging around:D There are kids who have excelled and gotten attention without deep pockets; but, they are few and far between.

But, back to the point of the thread, until the sport is important to this country, this country won't back the sport. The best chance for big success is with big money from corporate sponsors. And, the corporate sponsors aren't going to be lured in until there's a star like a 'Lance Armstrong'. Stars sell.:winkgrin:

[RugBug]

She's not whinging. She's being pragmatic. And smart. It would behoove more riders to extend their education to at least have a back up plan.

I truly never thought I'd see an adult tell a child "you're a chicken for pursuing a college education". wow. :eek:

MGP: If she really wants to be a pro, she need barn/riding experience, NOT classroom experience. There are classes that could help her become the best pro she can be, but a full degree is unnecessary. It's a fall back (not necessarily a bad idea). She needs to sit back and figure out her shot at success as a pro. Is she willing to put up with the sacrifices it will take? Right now, she's not.

My point is not that she's a chicken for pursuing a college education, it's that she's a chicken for not doing what she needs to do to follow her dreams. If she wants a college education AND wants the job in the barn...she CAN do both. She's taking the path of least resistance at the moment. She's going to have to decide to take the 'road less travelled' at some point to follow her dream. That road COULD contain college AND horses...if she chooses...but it may not be on her parent's dime.

A degree DOES NOT make you successful. As I added to my previous post, my brother, who barely graduated high school is more successful than I am and I did get my degree.

If college is necessary for the career path someone is on, by all means go. If that person wants a fall-back plan...by all means go. But if your career path has others factors for success that don't include a degree, why waste the time? So you can hedge your bets? It's not like someone can't go back to school later in life if their career doesn't work out like they wanted.

That poster is going to have to make the choice to follow her dream (or not) at some point. Do you think her parents that have decided that becoming a pro is akin to being a starving artist are EVER going to be okay with her being a pro? Not likely. She's headed down the road to being an amatuer, which is fine...but from what she posted, it's not what she wants.

[MyGiantPony]

MGP: If she really wants to be a pro, she need barn/riding experience, NOT classroom experience. There are classes that could help her become the best pro she can be, but a full degree is unnecessary. It's a fall back (not necessarily a bad idea). She needs to sit back and figure out her shot at success as a pro. Is she willing to put up with the sacrifices it will take? Right now, she's not.

My point is not that she's a chicken for pursuing a college education, it's that she's a chicken for not doing what she needs to do to follow her dreams. If she wants a college education AND wants the job in the barn...she CAN do that.

A degree DOES NOT make you successful. As I added to my previous post, my brother, who barely graduated high school is more successful than I am and I did get my degree.

If college is necessary for the career path someone is on, by all means go. If that person wants a fall-back plan...by all means go. But if your career path has others factors for success that don't include a degree, why waste the time? So you can hedge your bets? It's not like someone can't go back to school later in life if their career doesn't work out like they wanted.

That poster is going to have to make the choice to follow her dream (or not) at some point. Do you think her parents that have decided that becoming a pro is akin to being a starving artist are EVER going to be okay with her being a pro? Not likely. She's headed down the road to being an amatuer, which is fine...but from what she posted, it's not what she wants.

Best advice I ever got from MY pro was to go to college - and she also had a 4 year degree. Waiting 4 years to get an education isn't going to eliminate the opportunity to be a pro - but the right courses, such as a business or marketing degree, might actually HELP develop a successful business.

And I'm not saying a college degree is the only route. I said specifically "extend their education". That may mean trade school or an associates.

An education is NEVER a waste of time. I just can't believe that attitude exists, but I guess my education gets furthered every day. The horse biz will still be around in 4 years. Her opportunity for a college education may not be.

And as for going back to school at a later time...the statistics just don't support that. Kids that either drop out before completing or don't enroll out of high school don't tend to go back to college. They become adults with responsibilities and families. The current economic trend may be changing that to a point - there are something like 25 million unemployed adults going back to school - but traditionally, it just doesn't happen.

I've never met anyone who regretting having an education.

And as for the poster's parents - once she's an adult out on her own, and gets some mileage of being her own person (part of being a college student, may I add) she can take on her parents' attitude then.

[dags]

Getting away from personal circumstances and sighting back on the bigger picture, because whomever said it was right: we have this discussion over and over and it never goes anywhere. It always ends up rehashing the same arguments - this generation is lazy/no they're not . . . what about the state of US Show Jumping?/Who cares, it's all about the jr/ams, etc . . .

Do you think it would be possible to increase public interest in the sport in the States? And if so, what steps do you think could be taken to get there?

[relocatedTXjumpr]

I am 30, started riding at the age of 3, jumping/showing at 7 at what was then a fairly large show barn. My Mom worked soley to fund my riding habit but I was expected to do my part. I was one of those kids that was at the barn as soon as school was out...I could ride a different bus and be dropped off within walking distance to the barn road...in the summer I was there when the sun came up and was headed home (via my trainer) after the horses had their dinner.

I didnt always get to ride...but I learned TONS. I was happy to do whatever and was thrilled on the days my trainer took lessons from HER trainer and I could watch and set jumps. I think I learned more from WATCHING than by actually doing!

I don't think kids are "allowed" to do as much at most barns these days...they have grooms etc and most barns don't want Mom and Dad dropping off DD all day...and most trainers simply dont have the time to take the kind "under their wing"...and I am almost positive most trainers would not take the kid home at the end of a long day at the barn. Shoot, even as an adult I'll go hang out at the barn all day even if i dont have a lesson...I still like to watch other people ride and learn new things. I dont mind de-cobwebbing, dragging the ring, painting jumps, etc.

That being said...even though I put in the work and did get to ride a lot...I didnt get to ride the "nicer" horses and I certianly NEVER got to show them. Those guys were saved for the more $$$ kids/juniors. The staff, trainers, parents, etc knew they could count on me for tending to a cut, lunging, whatever...but I never got the chance to polish my more "elegant" riding skills. I could get the job done and I was a good, solid rider, but I was not going to pin in any EQ classes.

I went to a horsey college...even there I was not treated as "well" as the riders with money or who had shown at national shows. I put in my time in and out of class but still couldnt get my foot in the door when it came to the nicer horses.

As an adult/amature...I find I almost have to work even harder than I did as a junior. I have a full time job that doesnt pay nearly enough to support even a glimmer of a riding career...I have a husband, my own farm in the making, etc. Its down right hard to scrape up extra money for lessons, shows, etc. I do what I can...haul myself, clean my own stall, assist my trainer at shows, etc. My husband nor my parents throw any funds my way to help me with the horses...its all on my dime....and its down right hard.

I feel like I have put in the work and time, I love the animals and the sport, and for that reason I will continue to work my rear off to be able to ride. I don;t expect any hand outs or easy ribbons and I dont expect any sympathy for not being born with oodles of $$$$$ to help me out.

This summer I had a great riding opportunity literaly fall into my lap. It took a long time but it has been so worth it. I know it wont last forever so I am so thankful and taking as much advantage of it as I can. Without the support of my trainer and riding friends I dont think it would have happened the way it did.

I wanted to add too...the $$$$ kids I grew up with riding...with the excpetion of 1 gal...they ALL quit once the parental money ran out...it wasnt a love of the sport to them...it was what good little rich girls did. None of them have sat on a horse since they left our barn and really could care less. Me...I couldnt live without it.

[BAC]

That's from John Strassburger's blog: The Equine Things That Matter Most (http://www.myhorse.com/blogs/john_strassburger/index.aspx)

And John was the editor of COTH not too long ago. :yes:

[RugBug]

I've never met anyone who regretting having an education.
.

Hi, it's nice to meet you. :winkgrin:

Actually, I don't regret having an education per se, but my degree has meant VERY little in my actual life. It's hard to quantify what the degree has meant, but I can tell you, I could be doing exactly what I'm doing now, without it. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED being at school and woud be a life-long full-time college student if I could be (I love learning) but it hasn't translated as much as people are led to believe. I always wanted to be a trainer but never thought I could do it. I did the fall back plan but was always "m'eh" about any of the options. My fallback allows me to afford horses (barely) and give me the time to ride (which is why the 'barely' is in there) but I could be doing this or a myriad of other jobs without the degree and be in the same situation.

Let me tell you how good my credit score is, though, after paying off all my college loans early. Maybe my degree helped with that. :winkgrin:

College is great: It's just not the answer to every single person's educational life. A trainer needs some business courses (practical ones, not theoretical), maybe some animal science courses (all info can be learned in the field as well as in the classroom) but from there, they need the education they get from being at the barn. They need to be a working student, asst trainer, etc. THAT is their college degree.

[RugBug]

Do you think it would be possible to increase public interest in the sport in the States? And if so, what steps do you think could be taken to get there?

I think public interest could be increased, but the sport, specifically the english disciplines, will never lose the elite/monied image, and therefore won't garner the sponsorships.

[BAC]

Yes!

I got a phone call one afternoon after camp by a very upset parent. She was horrified that her 7 year old daughter got in the car after camp and cried because she was hot and thirsty. Mother had forgotten to pack child's swim suit, so child wasn't participating in the "slip and slide" end of camp activity- she was just watching. Said child "wasn't comfortable" asking a counselor for water and "wasn't comfortable" walking 20 feet to the air conditioned lounge. She blamed us for not reminding the child to drink and mom wasn't comfortable leaving the child in our care for the rest of camp. I cheerfully refunded her money. Lord have mercy....

Good grief, what kind of child is this woman raising? I don't know how you put up with such people!!!

[MyGiantPony]

Hi, it's nice to meet you. :winkgrin:

Actually, I don't regret having an education per se,

So in other words, you don't regret having an education. Like I said.

College is great: It's just not the answer to every single person's educational life.

No where did I say it was. My point is that to tell someone they are chicken or wasting their time pursuing an education...well...IMO, that's irresponsible and short sighted.

A trainer needs some business courses (practical ones, not theoretical), maybe some animal science courses (all info can be learned in the field as well as in the classroom) but from there, they need the education they get from being at the barn. They need to be a working student, asst trainer, etc. THAT is their college degree.

And when the economy crashes and people cut back on their extras, like horses and lessons, where does that leave the trainer with a "college degree" in mucking stalls and cleaning tack?

I know SO many trainers who are now working 2 and 3 jobs on top of trying to keep their barns going...because they don't have any education or skills outside the horse industry. Now THAT'S a waste.

[hideyourheart03]

That being said...even though I put in the work and did get to ride a lot...I didnt get to ride the "nicer" horses and I certianly NEVER got to show them. Those guys were saved for the more $$$ kids/juniors. The staff, trainers, parents, etc knew they could count on me for tending to a cut, lunging, whatever...but I never got the chance to polish my more "elegant" riding skills. I could get the job done and I was a good, solid rider, but I was not going to pin in any EQ classes.





Exactly.

Pros think about their pockets (rightfully so), and therefore give the opportunities to clients who will spend more, rather than the kids who bust their tails. But that's just my experience.

No rides=no ability to get better. Period. Even mediocre rides (ie like riding Children's Hunters instead of Jr's, etc) make riders better.

[dags]

I think public interest could be increased, but the sport, specifically the english disciplines, will never lose the elite/monied image, and therefore won't garner the sponsorships.

Shouldn't that elite image be attractive to sponsors? This is a crew that is used to spending money, buys the best of the best. Just received some email about USEF partnering up with Town & Country to provide members discounted ad rates - though I wasn't thrilled with some of the wording in this release the two do go hand and hand. There is a whole faction of products and services geared to the rich, what better place to reach them than an A rated horse show?

[ReSomething]

I'm going to address what I took from the article and some comments.

One being 20 somethings - I don't think you get to be a better rider by mucking stalls and hanging around the barn. Sorry. You have to ride, and I think that takes some intrinsic talent that is there and catches a mentor's eye. Luck is a huge component. Having the right horse at the right time in the right place, just not going to happen for everyone.

Two is feeding yourself, even with the right horse at the right time you have to have a job or a sponsor. How many really good junior riders can make the choice to follow riding as a career - not many. There's no money in it, no million dollar basketball or football contracts at the end of the rainbow. Horses eat and they get hurt. Lose your star horse and buh bye.
Ex-Olympians that stay in their sport usually end up teaching and training.

Three is the nature of the sport. Horse shows. All about spending money to compete. Buy a really nice horse, learn to ride him well, you're golden.
Money has to come from somewhere and usually from parents, or pay for it yourself after you have already established a successful career, by which time the Olympics is not exactly high on the list - too much commitment.

I recall that the Soviet model for the Olympic hopefuls was state run, and in such a large country you have to admit it is the most efficient method. IIRC the Olympics drew from the military(cavalry) up until the '50's. Now we are seeing the results of 50 years of free market.

[RugBug]

I know SO many trainers who are now working 2 and 3 jobs on top of trying to keep their barns going...because they don't have any education or skills outside the horse industry. Now THAT'S a waste.

Then they are too short-sighted to sell the skills they developed as a trainer, 'cause there are a lot of marketable skills involved with running a business. That's a matter of not knowing how to get a job (or wanting to work outside an industry), NOT of missing out on a college education.

My point is that to tell someone they are chicken or wasting their time pursuing an education...well...IMO, that's irresponsible and short sighted.

Um, I got on the girl's case because she's whining about having to go to college paid for by her parents when she doesn't seen to want to. Her post makes her seem trapped. She's not. THAT is what I was remarking on. If she really feels trapped and is doing nothing about it...she is acting out of fear not out of a logical decision to have a back-up plan. Plain as that.

[luvs2ridewbs]

Ok as far as public interest and media coverage goes, how did other sports promote themselves? I am thinking of PBR and the like. Even racing to an extent. They have 4 major events during the year and the big race lasts 2 minutes (if you don't watch all the pre-race coverage). How does racing stay on tv? What is the draw that they have and we don't?

[RugBug]

Shouldn't that elite image be attractive to sponsors? This is a crew that is used to spending money, buys the best of the best. Just received some email about USEF partnering up with Town & Country to provide members discounted ad rates - though I wasn't thrilled with some of the wording in this release the two do go hand and hand. There is a whole faction of products and services geared to the rich, what better place to reach them than an A rated horse show?

Attractive to the sponsors that cater to the monied, sure. And we get those sponsors. But for sponsors that don't cater to the elite? It's just not a draw.

Also most of the sponsors for english disciplines are advertising to an already captured market. Horse people already know the products or what they have to offer. They're preaching to the choir, so to speak. There's no advertising advantage to a spectator-filled crowd because there just aren't the spectators.

Ok as far as public interest and media coverage goes, how did other sports promote themselves? I am thinking of PBR and the like. Even racing to an extent. They have 4 major events during the year and the big race lasts 2 minutes (if you don't watch all the pre-race coverage). How does racing stay on tv? What is the draw that they have and we don't?

Only the biggest races are on non-cable TV. They are steeped in tradition and history... people attend. It's also VERY exciting to watch a race. But I'm pretty sure the majority of people have only been to a race track a handful of times. I've NEVER been to the races and attempt to catch the big races on TV if it's convenient (not really because I don't have television). Most everyday racing draws betting enthusiasts.

[ontarget]

Okay, here's the thing. Concerning the 20-something riders, OF COURSE the ones who put in the hours are going to be the ones posting on this topic. That's because they are the ones who live and breathe horses, the ones who spend their extra hours surfing the Chronicle forums instead of talking to boys/girls or out partying. Honestly, can you really see someone who hasn't put in the hours, who maybe shows at the top levels, but doesn't know squat about horsemanship browsing through "Horse Care" and checking training posts in their free time when they'd rather be out shopping?

Yes, there are plenty of young riders out there who have put in the time. As another poster mentioned, however, it is a combination of work ethic, talent, determination, business sense, and a ton of other things. Some of those who are willing to work their behinds off to get where they want to be may just not have the talent or be able to find the backing, and some of those who have the talent may not be willing to work to get where they could be.

I think the concept of the pros not putting enough focus on themselves is very real. I went over to train with Michael Whitaker in Europe for a period of time, and while he is clearly an outstanding international rider, he really didn't have a clue how to train me. That is because he, like many other top European riders, focuses on himself and his horses. He does not have students. He does not need students.

In this day and age, at the top levels, the top shows barns do put all their emphasis on the amateurs and juniors, obviously, because they pay the bills. However, I think there is a way to do this without foregoing the horsemanship foundation many of those riders have failed to receive.

When I was a junior competing at the top levels, I couldn't have told you squat about horse care. I barely knew the names of the hay my horses were getting fed, let alone things like NSC levels in the grain and proper nutrition. For about 5 years, I never had to so much as put on a leg wrap, and things like helping with grooming and holding horses for farrier and vet were strongly discouraged.

I think that pros running a client-based barn should cater to the needs of their clients, but I don't think that taking away all the responsibilities of the owner/rider is beneficial. I guarantee you now, I could ask many of the top riders I competed against anything about nutrition or horse care, and they wouldn't be able to answer my questions (not saying ALL, but many of them, absolutely). They barely saw their horses except when they were riding and showing, and never needed to ask any questions. Their trainers and grooms took care of everything. Why WOULD they know any of that stuff?

However, while I would love to see more of those top barns teach as much about horsemanship as riding, I honestly just don't see this happening. Those barns are set in their ways, and so long as they are getting huge loads of money for doing all the "extras" that cut out the horsemanship, why would they change?? And why would the junior and amateurs want to make their lives more difficult for themselves unless they are the crazed and determined youths we see posting on these boards??

I do see the horsemanship plenty at the lower levels, but most of the people I see there either a) don't have the talent b) don't have the funds and don't know how to get the funds or c) don't have the drive to become top professionals.

I think that pointing out all those professionals who didn't have any backing and had to work to where they got is just a show that it does take a whole heck of a lot of effort and talent to get there, and that's the only way someone is going to get there. You can have money, you can have talent, but without the knowledge and the determination, you won't go anywhere. And with our current youths lacking in preparation for the trials and tribulations of what it REALLY takes to hold your own in the horse world, they do not have the desire nor have the knowledge to fulfill professional ambitions. Therefore, we do not have the same number of quality riders as we may see in Europe; our US bred young, talented horses are not being snapped up and trained to their full potential; and a large portion of those competing at the AA level are lacking in horsemanship fundamentals.

[gasrgoose]

Ok as far as public interest and media coverage goes, how did other sports promote themselves? I am thinking of PBR and the like. Even racing to an extent. They have 4 major events during the year and the big race lasts 2 minutes (if you don't watch all the pre-race coverage). How does racing stay on tv? What is the draw that they have and we don't?

Horse racing has gambling! PBR has 150 lb men getting destoyed by bulls!

[ReSomething]

Getting away from personal circumstances and sighting back on the bigger picture, because whomever said it was right: we have this discussion over and over and it never goes anywhere. It always ends up rehashing the same arguments - this generation is lazy/no they're not . . . what about the state of US Show Jumping?/Who cares, it's all about the jr/ams, etc . . .

Do you think it would be possible to increase public interest in the sport in the States? And if so, what steps do you think could be taken to get there?

Missed this while I was typing. Tennis, PGA and LPGA are the sports most similar. They have good TV coverage and sponsorship. English riding is just so far removed from the average American's access, and not likely to get any better with insurance and land cost issues. There's a tennis court at many, many parks and public golf courses in most towns over a certain size, also college programs. Also, riding is difficult, and getting to a level where you are able to compete takes a serious commitment, not a six week class.
How to make it more palatable to the average American? "Pull up your bootstraps" stories. Horatio Alger stories are bogus anymore but they are embedded in the American psyche. English riding especially is so connected with a certain monied class. It has to be thought of as more accessible - regardless of how true that is in real life. Animal Planet's Road to the Maclay had one young lady out of the bunch who could have been thought of as the common person. Of course she did not win, the daughter of the monied elite did. Talent got her there but it is so easy to point to her background and pooh pooh the whole sport.

[ontarget]

As far as promotion... from what little experience I had in Europe, there was betting for the Grand Prixs. Not sure if this is true all over, or just at the events that I attended. And showjumping and soccer are the two biggest sports. If they can do it, why can't we get to that point?

And jumping 5'+ fences can be considered pretty exciting by the public. Most completely non horse people I talk to are shocked and intrigued by the thought of a horse clearing huge jumps. I think we just lack the funding to really advertise, and perhaps fail to cater to the spectators during events. Once again, an issue of money and sponsorship.

[luvs2ridewbs]

haha.. so what your saying is we should make it so people can gamble on the hunters? ;):D

[ontarget]

luvs2ridewbs... well, it could definitely make it more interesting! :winkgrin:

Missed this while I was typing. Tennis, PGA and LPGA are the sports most similar. They have good TV coverage and sponsorship. English riding is just so far removed from the average American's access, and not likely to get any better with insurance and land cost issues. There's a tennis court at many, many parks and public golf courses in most towns over a certain size, also college programs. Also, riding is difficult, and getting to a level where you are able to compete takes a serious commitment, not a six week class.
How to make it more palatable to the average American? "Pull up your bootstraps" stories. Horatio Alger stories are bogus anymore but they are embedded in the American psyche. English riding especially is so connected with a certain monied class. It has to be thought of as more accessible - regardless of how true that is in real life. Animal Planet's Road to the Maclay had one young lady out of the bunch who could have been thought of as the common person. Of course she did not win, the daughter of the monied elite did. Talent got her there but it is so easy to point to her background and pooh pooh the whole sport.

But see, how is any of this any different from Europe??? It takes money over there to get the nice horses. They have rich barns and rich everything. And yet, still, showjumping is one of the most popular sports. I don't think it's an issue of how it is perceived, or how difficult it is. Most of the population unrelated to horses don't know anything about the sport other than it involves a huge animal with four legs and a tail.

And do you wear a cowboy hat or those police boots when you ride...?

;)

[ReSomething]

This.

Okay, here's the thing. Concerning the 20-something riders, OF COURSE the ones who put in the hours are going to be the ones posting on this topic. That's because they are the ones who live and breathe horses, the ones who spend their extra hours surfing the Chronicle forums instead of talking to boys/girls or out partying. Honestly, can you really see someone who hasn't put in the hours, who maybe shows at the top levels, but doesn't know squat about horsemanship browsing through "Horse Care" and checking training posts in their free time when they'd rather be out shopping?

Yes, there are plenty of young riders out there who have put in the time. As another poster mentioned, however, it is a combination of work ethic, talent, determination, business sense, and a ton of other things. Some of those who are willing to work their behinds off to get where they want to be may just not have the talent or be able to find the backing, and some of those who have the talent may not be willing to work to get where they could be.

I think the concept of the pros not putting enough focus on themselves is very real. I went over to train with Michael Whitaker in Europe for a period of time, and while he is clearly an outstanding international rider, he really didn't have a clue how to train me. That is because he, like many other top European riders, focuses on himself and his horses. He does not have students. He does not need students.

In this day and age, at the top levels, the top shows barns do put all their emphasis on the amateurs and juniors, obviously, because they pay the bills. However, I think there is a way to do this without foregoing the horsemanship foundation many of those riders have failed to receive.

When I was a junior competing at the top levels, I couldn't have told you squat about horse care. I barely knew the names of the hay my horses were getting fed, let alone things like NSC levels in the grain and proper nutrition. For about 5 years, I never had to so much as put on a leg wrap, and things like helping with grooming and holding horses for farrier and vet were strongly discouraged.

I think that pros running a client-based barn should cater to the needs of their clients, but I don't think that taking away all the responsibilities of the owner/rider is beneficial. I guarantee you now, I could ask many of the top riders I competed against anything about nutrition or horse care, and they wouldn't be able to answer my questions (not saying ALL, but many of them, absolutely). They barely saw their horses except when they were riding and showing, and never needed to ask any questions. Their trainers and grooms took care of everything. Why WOULD they know any of that stuff?

However, while I would love to see more of those top barns teach as much about horsemanship as riding, I honestly just don't see this happening. Those barns are set in their ways, and so long as they are getting huge loads of money for doing all the "extras" that cut out the horsemanship, why would they change?? And why would the junior and amateurs want to make their lives more difficult for themselves unless they are the crazed and determined youths we see posting on these boards??

I do see the horsemanship plenty at the lower levels, but most of the people I see there either a) don't have the talent b) don't have the funds and don't know how to get the funds or c) don't have the drive to become top professionals.

I think that pointing out all those professionals who didn't have any backing and had to work to where they got is just a show that it does take a whole heck of a lot of effort and talent to get there, and that's the only way someone is going to get there. You can have money, you can have talent, but without the knowledge and the determination, you won't go anywhere. And with our current youths lacking in preparation for the trials and tribulations of what it REALLY takes to hold your own in the horse world, they do not have the desire nor have the knowledge to fulfill professional ambitions. Therefore, we do not have the same number of quality riders as we may see in Europe; our US bred young, talented horses are not being snapped up and trained to their full potential; and a large portion of those competing at the AA level are lacking in horsemanship fundamentals.

[RugBug]

And jumping 5'+ fences can be considered pretty exciting by the public. Most completely non horse people I talk to are shocked and intrigued by the thought of a horse clearing huge jumps.

Yeah, it's exciting if you understand what's going on. The general public understands rails down or refusals can't be good, but they really don't understand the skill involved at all. They think you get on a horse, point it at a jump and you're good. They have more of an idea of the skill involved with tennis or golf or football or baseball or soccer, etc because they've done it once or twice.

[ontarget]

Yeah, it's exciting if you understand what's going on. The general public understands rails down or refusals can't be good, but they really don't understand the skill involved at all. They think you get on a horse, point it at a jump and you're good. They have more of an idea of the skill involved with tennis or golf or football or baseball or soccer, etc because they've done it once or twice.


I disagree. I know of many people who have gone to their first horse show who have never been around a horse before who are in awe of the Grand Prixs because they don't know what's going on, and seeing that huge horse vaulting itself in the air and not always clearing the jump can be just as exciting as other sports. I still think it's an issue of advertising and how the event caters to non-horsey people (which, usually, it doesn't since most everyone watching is horsey), not the public's opinions. I've known several people who were literally gasping and jumping up and down while cheering in excitement while watching, although this was quickly dampened when they noticed everyone around them (horsey people) were so blase about the whole thing.

[ReSomething]

luvs2ridewbs... well, it could definitely make it more interesting! :winkgrin:



But see, how is any of this any different from Europe??? It takes money over there to get the nice horses. They have rich barns and rich everything. And yet, still, showjumping is one of the most popular sports. I don't think it's an issue of how it is perceived, or how difficult it is. Most of the population unrelated to horses don't know anything about the sport other than it involves a huge animal with four legs and a tail.

And do you wear a cowboy hat or those police boots when you ride...?

;)

Well, what is the difference? Venues closer? Tradition? Social aspects?
Fewer other sports to compete for the attending dollar? How do we make a rock star out of a show jumper here in the US? Are people drawn by the attendance and participation of the royals?

Keeneland here is a huge social event - people take picnic lunches and eat out in the parking lot. They tailgate for chrissakes, just like they do for UK games. But you can argue that the TB industry permeats the area. Everybody knows somebody in the biz, except that the people going do so because they just do, it is what one does here at that time of year, one huge party at a really nice place.

[magnolia73]

Money has to come from somewhere and usually from parents, or pay for it yourself after you have already established a successful career, by which time the Olympics is not exactly high on the list - too much commitment.

Eventing gold medalist (or at least medalist)- middle aged dentist from Germany. He had the resources of wealth, skill, and the right horse peaked at the right time. I'm not sure he could run a dental practice and make the US team.

I ask myself- my friend Suzanne- a neurologist. Skill, talent, drive, fitness. No way could she make the Olympics due to her job and our region. Her barn is a one hour each way drive. Work varies too much for a top class conditioning schedule. Not enough vacation to participate in training sessions and get to big events. She can ride 2 horses 4-5 times a week. She can't dial back her work.

[Trixie]

Derbies for A/Os because they pay the bills? By that logic we should make GPs 3'6 and derbies 2'6.

How about derbies as they are, and not complaining because amateur riders want to “give it a shot”? What’s wrong with giving it a shot? Why does it have to be pro-only? Many adults in this sport would love to move up and simply can’t afford to have a horse for the pro to further their goals on as well. I just can’t fault them for being out there and trying.

And when the economy crashes and people cut back on their extras, like horses and lessons, where does that leave the trainer with a "college degree" in mucking stalls and cleaning tack?

Exactly. If you put your time in spending day in, day out at a barn and still can’t get your foot in the door for riding, you’re going to have to walk into your next job and tell them that you spent the last ten years effectively shoveling crap.

And this industry really doesn’t have a whole lot of functional middle ground for trainers. There are some good opportunities to manage a barn. But if you want to become a trainer and rider, good positions are fewer and further between. There aren’t a lot of relatively SURVIVABLE “lower” and “middle” jobs.

You can be an assistant trainer. One on yard and groom offers a shared efficiency apartment and a small stipend. Another provides a possible “efficiency type bunk room.” One has a shared studio in a barn (“similar to camp!”) with a food stipend. Another offers $150 a week, and you have to provide them with childcare as well as teaching lessons. Better yet - $160 a week, NO housing, but you’re teaching lessons and coordinating all the working student arrangements. Full time instructor - $10 an hour!

Some are more livable. But this industry, as a whole, isn’t easy to survive in, and doesn’t offer a lot in the way of a fallback plan if you’re not getting commissions on $50K horses regularly. Therefore, riders DO need to learn, one way or another, what their marketable skills are, and how to use them to their advantage.

[dags]

PBR also has an excellent and dedicated PR and Marketing team. It is a great example as it has seen great growth in popularity. Of course it helps that those guys go head first into the dirt :D but so do we! You're just not inclined to see it in the hours of 2' classes (yes I know, in some instances you are likely to see more lawn darting at 2', but it's nowhere near as entertaining (spectacly speaking) as someone biffing a 5'6" oxer).

PBR has events that consist of one class and one shot. I won tickets to one at a bar one year and I'll be danged if they hadn't sold out the entire venue. Spectators got 2 hours of high octane entertainment - we CAN provide that, but with SO much else going on at the show who's got time to get out and promote that event to the public? And as it is the shows are such a mass of confusion that scream chaos and "you don't belong here" as much as they do boredom to the average spectator.

Is it feasible to run a High Performance Series? Standalone events that showcase the best of the best? Where the novices leave their horses at home and come to spectate, awe and learn? Where an Average Joe from the street could walk in and see one ring, one set of giant jumps, and actually "get it"? The Chicago Hunter Derby recently did this and at $200 a ticket and nearly 40 entries it seems to have some appeal. Filling the stands will bring the sponsors which should hopefully pay out to the riders. Seems this should be a strong focus of the industry.

[Trixie]

As far as marketing, we can play up the "social" event aspect of the big horse shows as well.

Around here, people FLOCK to the Virginia Gold Cup. Polo gets pretty good turnout. Actually, the Grand Prix of Upperville does fairly well because they market it. Other GP's, not as much. They aren't marketed.

They DID put the Columbia Classic Grand Prix on the radio. It'd be interesting to see how the turnout was for that.

[poltroon]

PBR also has an excellent and dedicated PR and Marketing team. It is a great example as it has seen great growth in popularity. Of course it helps that those guys go head first into the dirt :D but so do we! You're just not inclined to see it in the hours of 2' classes (yes I know, in some instances you are likely to see more lawn darting at 2', but it's nowhere near as entertaining (spectacly speaking) as someone biffing a 5'6" oxer).

PBR has events that consist of one class and one shot. I won tickets to one at a bar one year and I'll be danged if they hadn't sold out the entire venue. Spectators got 2 hours of high octane entertainment - we CAN provide that, but with SO much else going on at the show who's got time to get out and promote that event to the public? And as it is the shows are such a mass of confusion that scream chaos and "you don't belong here" as much as they do boredom to the average spectator.

Rodeo has really long reset times that leave me restless between goes. Basically you sit for 2-3 minutes, maybe more, to watch 8 seconds of bucking plus about another minute of animal running around.

The spectators that fill the seats don't seem to mind, maybe because they drink a lot of beer.

[DMK]

trixie, i'm all for a non-pro derby option, and i'm really all for ammies that want to take the pros on in their own court. Just not for keeping fences low because one group or another "pays the bills". That logic is flawed at best, last I checked, you didn't take your wallet in the ring to see who had the fattest one! :lol:

[Trixie]

I'm all about leaving the fences up!!! At minimum a 3'6" option. Now, I don't know what the height of a "smaller derby" was in the south but:

I saw the pros out there coaching amateurs for that class and not riding themselves. IMO there were too many amateurs "giving it a try" to make the class really special.

I don't agree that the Hunter Derbies are FOR the amateurs. They are to be a showcase for the top HORSES. And let's face it- the top professionals can get the best performances out of the top horses. I think the point that the OP makes is that the top professionals are working to serve the amateurs- who do it for their own fun- not for the good of the sport as a whole.

Seems really discouraging for the ammies to get out there and give it a go, regardless of jump height.

[ontarget]

Does anyone know any European showjumping history? Anyone from Europe? I want to do my own digging to see how exactly it DID become so popular. There does seem to be a tremendous amount of publicity in Europe for the big horse events. Showjumping makes the headlines of the papers over there. However, I would be curious to know how that got started, or if it was simply always like this. Does anyone know?

Racing events are huge social events. I am wondering if there would be a way to turn showjumping in this direction. The event absolutely needs to promote socializing and WELCOME and ENCOURAGE those who know nothing about the sport, not dampen their enthusiasm. In Europe, I will say that there are not a lot of haughty horse people sitting in the stands. It's full of cheering, loud, excited people who come from all over, close and far, to go wild for the event. It's like going to a football game here in the US. And I wouldn't really call them "horse people." They're just people who find jumping horses exciting.

I think a High Performance Series would be an excellent idea. But even with that, marketing and publicity are the things that are going to draw the crowd. I get tons of ads for Grand Prixs in my inbox, but how are the non-horsey people hearing about it? How to get it out there? How to find a sponsor who can put forth the money to advertise on TV or in the paper? How do we advertise?

Does anyone have any answers on how we can market showjumping events?

[imapepper]

Does anyone know any European showjumping history? Anyone from Europe? I want to do my own digging to see how exactly it DID become so popular. There does seem to be a tremendous amount of publicity in Europe for the big horse events. Showjumping makes the headlines of the papers over there. However, I would be curious to know how that got started, or if it was simply always like this. Does anyone know?

Racing events are huge social events. I am wondering if there would be a way to turn showjumping in this direction. The event absolutely needs to promote socializing and WELCOME and ENCOURAGE those who know nothing about the sport, not dampen their enthusiasm. In Europe, I will say that there are not a lot of haughty horse people sitting in the stands. It's full of cheering, loud, excited people who come from all over, close and far, to go wild for the event. It's like going to a football game here in the US. And I wouldn't really call them "horse people." They're just people who find jumping horses exciting.

I think a High Performance Series would be an excellent idea. But even with that, marketing and publicity are the things that are going to draw the crowd. I get tons of ads for Grand Prixs in my inbox, but how are the non-horsey people hearing about it? How to get it out there? How to find a sponsor who can put forth the money to advertise on TV or in the paper? How do we advertise?

Does anyone have any answers on how we can market showjumping events?

Well....you mentioned PBR

What do you think about contacting PBR and asking if we could showcase a something like a Puissance at a PBR event? Or a GP (Invitational type event) where the numbers were limited but the PBR fans could get an idea of the excitement of show jumping.

I think there might be a great opportunity to get new fans by teaming up with another sport and putting on a demonstration. At some of the small GPs around here there are pre class demonstrations. Like one year they had reiners come in a do a demo ride and another year they had flyball races. Just an idea....

[relocatedTXjumpr]

There was a Derby offered at the Local show that both JSalem and myself were at this pas weekend....2'6 with 2'9 options.

There were 2 riders entered, myself and someone else. The class was cancelled because it had less than 4 riders. I was told by the show manager that the Derbies require a lot of work on the part of the staff and jump crew, so they wont run it with less than 5 riders.

Myself...I was excited to try it. I showed for the first time in EONS at 3ft last weekend...and was excited to try the Derby at the lower height where I felt like I could do the heigher options well. I am an amature and show a handful of times a year at the local level...I cant afford large "A" shows and I am personally no longer comfortable jumping at 3'6, let alone showing at it.

Does that make me less of a rider? I dont think so, I know my limits and my horses limits....I am attending shows to show off my horse and my trainer...not to jump as high as I can.

2'6 may be a "dumbed down" version of a nice class...but so what? It gives some of us the chance to do a class like that that we otherwise might not have. If I am willing to pay my $100 entry fee so be it...what is it to you?

[nomeolvides]

Showjumping makes the headlines of the papers over there. However, I would be curious to know how that got started, or if it was simply always like this. Does anyone know?
Apart from the UK, where spectator numbers at the recent European championships for showjumping were really loooowww and media coverage was also pretty sparse :(

[dags]

Well....you mentioned PBR

What do you think about contacting PBR and asking if we could showcase a something like a Puissance at a PBR event? Or a GP (Invitational type event) where the numbers were limited but the PBR fans could get an idea of the excitement of show jumping.

I think there might be a great opportunity to get new fans by teaming up with another sport and putting on a demonstration. At some of the small GPs around here there are pre class demonstrations. Like one year they had reiners come in a do a demo ride and another year they had flyball races. Just an idea....

ohhh, thank you for the courage to voice my real idea :D

My friend and I, (friend has switched from HJ to western thanks to the gild and monetary glitter of their prizes, and also runs publicity for folk in the "country" industry) dreamed up a High Performance Series, where Night 1 was High Performance reining, Night 2- Dressage Musical Freestyle, Night 3 - Showjumping . . . topped off by a rock concert :D Seriously. A skin and bone thought that hasn't seen much attention since, but has always caught my fancy.


I do believe the equestrian sect in the US, intentionally or not, has sequestered itself from the "general" public, possibly to our own demise.

[DMK]

trixie, that whole derby issue came up because the intent was always to start at 3'6 with bigger options and then move up the height to 4-4'3 to be more in line with the regulars from days gone by. this year only 25% of the fences can be at 3'6 and the rest must be 3'9/4'0 with the options @ 4' -4'3. On another thread there was much discussion that this always intended change in height would make it harder for ammies/jrs to compete in these classes (because you know none of them show in the jr/ao jumpers).

RTXJ - there's a big difference between saying "no derbies for anyone but pros" and saying let's not keep the pro derby low just so ammys/jrs can play too! keep the big money, high talent event so the cream rises to the top, just like you don't expect the sunday GP to be the same height/complexity as the jr/ao jumpers, right?

[imapepper]

ohhh, thank you for the courage to voice my real idea :D

My friend and I, (friend has switched from HJ to western thanks to the gild and monetary glitter of their prizes, and also runs publicity for folk in the "country" industry) dreamed up a High Performance Series, where Night 1 was High Performance reining, Night 2- Dressage Musical Freestyle, Night 3 - Showjumping . . . topped off by a rock concert :D Seriously. A skin and bone thought that hasn't seen much attention since, but has always caught my fancy.


I do believe the equestrian sect in the US, intentionally or not, has sequestered itself from the "general" public, possibly to our own demise.

Anytime ;) I would love to see this done because I think people would really enjoy watching the real thing if it were more accessible....i.e. there were some sort of advertising and a social event to go with it.

I really like your concert idea. That is a great idea!!!! Now all we need to do is get some horse loving singer/band to donate their time :winkgrin:

[ontarget]

ohhh, thank you for the courage to voice my real idea :D

My friend and I, (friend has switched from HJ to western thanks to the gild and monetary glitter of their prizes, and also runs publicity for folk in the "country" industry) dreamed up a High Performance Series, where Night 1 was High Performance reining, Night 2- Dressage Musical Freestyle, Night 3 - Showjumping . . . topped off by a rock concert :D Seriously. A skin and bone thought that hasn't seen much attention since, but has always caught my fancy.


I do believe the equestrian sect in the US, intentionally or not, has sequestered itself from the "general" public, possibly to our own demise.

I think that's actually a rather excellent idea... Teaming up with another sport, ANY sport, really, with high popularity could push up the popularity of these equestrian sports and make it more accessible to the public.

Who would we talk to to set up such an event, though? Who would be willing to fund it?

[danceronice]

PBR also has an excellent and dedicated PR and Marketing team. It is a great example as it has seen great growth in popularity.

This is very true. And while I'm sure it helped that originally, his wife Jewel was also supposed to appear on the show (but had to withdraw after an injury), who was the surprise "dark horse" competitor to make it to the final four of last season's "Dancing With the Stars"? Bullriding champion (and PBR exec) Ty Murray. Talk about a "WHO?" reaction from typical DWTS viewers...but he got out there, and PBR's official sites and tours promoted the HECK out of it. They had a blog, a web site, they promoted it at tour events. They have a killer PR team who knows how to get out there and promote, promote, promote. I don't know how many new viewers PBR got out of it, but a few million viewers who knew absolutley nothing about bull riding and rodeo suddenly got an education.

Racing has the social aspect (going to the races was a "thing" for my very Southern school). And it has the betting aspect. I freely admit, I don't just go to the track to watch the horsies run around in circles, and only a vestige of financial responsibility keeps me from getting a TVG account (that and it's much more fun when it's real physical money.) A big part is it gives me an investment in the results, not just monetarily but psychologically. I have a "team" to root for. Not just one "big" horse who comes along that I can follow on TV, but in the $10k optional claimer right in front of me.

Show jumping is probably the most tv-friendly, and the down side is everyone goes one at a time, dresses more or less alike, and it takes a really long time to complete. It has a similar disadvantage the PBR has--there are a LOT of competitors on course for a very brief time and people like having stars to root for. PBR gets around this by playing up both the bulls and the cowboys as stars--there are big entrances, the top riders get their faces on the advertising, and a lot of attention is paid to stats/past performances. People don't just want a good death-defying show, they want heros and villains and a star to cheer for and a vested interest in the outcome. PBR has elements of a rock concert, complete with the fireworks.

Dressage, hunters, and even reining are a harder sell--anything with subjective judging has a tougher time (skating and gymnastics have the physical wow factor with a sense of imminent demise) and, to be honest, even if you know what's going on it can be really easy to glaze over after the first three or four dressage tests or 3'6" hunters. Collected and refined or slow and steady do not for good television make.

[dags]

Anytime ;) I would love to see this done because I think people would really enjoy watching the real thing if it were more accessible....i.e. there were some sort of advertising and a social event to go with it.

I really like your concert idea. That is a great idea!!!! Now all we need to do is get some horse loving singer/band to donate their time :winkgrin:

A certain National Medal Finals Winner and her father came to mind :)

Truly though, the sport is littered with celebrities and VIPs. I think the hard part is getting the cream of the crop to, well, split off from the crop . . . which as we all have recognized, is their bread and butter.

HOWEVER, sending the elite trainers off with the elite riders leaves room for the up and coming 20 somethings to ran/manage/handle their own "program" of young horses and riders not yet ready to go off to the High Performance, but gaining experience and miles on a lesser circuit. This could be very valuable for bringing along young professionals in the industry.

[relocatedTXjumpr]

No, your correct DMK. And I am talking Local shows here...last time I was at an "A" show I was showing in the Childrens Jumpers...

I FULLY expect to get beaten by a pro and expect a Pro to be able to handle higher fences and more complex questions...thats why they are Pros after all.

But, lets not make things completly unobtainable for the rest of us. At larger shows, "A" shows, sure, have those big classes...get people to come and watch, etc. Let the Pros strut their stuff.

At locals I would expect that a lot of the Pros are too busy schooling and training their clients to even begin thinking about showing themselves...especially if there are ring conflicts. So, why not offer the lower fence height open to Ammys and let them have fun? Maybe offer one for the Pros at the end of year show for the locals or on Saturday evenings after all other rings have finished...but give us Ammys something to shoot for too!

Some of us will never jump higher than 3ft, some of us are fine with that and really hate it when we are made to feel like just because we don't show at higher levels that we are not a valued part of the industry. My money is just as good as anyone elses. I am perfectly happy with my Ammy status and am perfectly happy doing the A/A's the rest of my life...but would like to TRY a Derby or at least have the option to.

[dags]

Another quick thing, would expect no decent performer to "donate" their time. Heck no, this is a money making proposition, tickets will be sold to said concert, but we will use their popularity with the general public to promote our own.

[imapepper]

I think that's actually a rather excellent idea... Teaming up with another sport, ANY sport, really, with high popularity could push up the popularity of these equestrian sports and make it more accessible to the public.

Who would we talk to to set up such an event, though? Who would be willing to fund it?

I think that we would need to figure out what the cost of the facility and the potential draw of the other event to be able to sell tickets to cover the cost. And if we teamed up with the right event, maybe some of the sponsers might help cover costs. That is kind of why I thought that doing a demo. Something like a half time show ;) Of course, there is no way in the world they would let us jump on a football field :lol: but wouldn't it be cool if we could be the halftime entertainment on Sunday Night football? :cool:

[imapepper]

A certain National Medal Finals Winner and her father came to mind :)

I like the way you think :D

[dags]

I think that we would need to figure out what the cost of the facility and the potential draw of the other event to be able to sell tickets to cover the cost. And if we teamed up with the right event, maybe some of the sponsers might help cover costs. That is kind of why I thought that doing a demo. Something like a half time show ;) Of course, there is no way in the world they would let us jump on a football field :lol: but wouldn't it be cool if we could be the halftime entertainment on Sunday Night football? :cool:

Absofreakinglutely, no matter how far-fetched it is :)

I think the point being is we need to stop searching for these answers inside the industry and start trying to meld ourselves back into the rest of the world.

[DMK]

I am perfectly happy with my Ammy status and am perfectly happy doing the A/A's the rest of my life...but would like to TRY a Derby or at least have the option to.

myself included, i just don't want to deprive myself of the pleasure of watching a truly talented hunter gallop down to a 4'0 fence and jump the ever loving tar out of it just so some folks can do it at 3'6. But if the entries warrant it at the A shows that host a derby, it sure would be fun if there was a non-pro 3'6 derby.

[Trixie]

I really like your concert idea. That is a great idea!!!! Now all we need to do is get some horse loving singer/band to donate their time

They did this at WIHS one year - Jewel performed.

Frankly, it was kind of bizarre. I don't mind Jewel, but it was pretty strange to have a Jewel concert on great wall night or whatever it was. And it didn't bring in all that many more people, IIRC.

[dags]

I like the way you think :D

It's both a blessing and a curse. This is one wayyy out there, almost unacheivable, going to require time, money, both arms & a leg idea of several. :D

[ontarget]

I think that we would need to figure out what the cost of the facility and the potential draw of the other event to be able to sell tickets to cover the cost. And if we teamed up with the right event, maybe some of the sponsers might help cover costs. That is kind of why I thought that doing a demo. Something like a half time show ;) Of course, there is no way in the world they would let us jump on a football field :lol: but wouldn't it be cool if we could be the halftime entertainment on Sunday Night football? :cool:

The mental image of that is amazing. :cool:

dags, I completely agree with you. And those of us who have issues with the way things are need to get off of our hands and actually do something, which I realize may be hard unless certain names are handy and there are money bags underneath the hands we were sitting on before. I don't think it's impossible, I just think we need a place to start. And some names to call.

I think WIHS with a concert and a single GP with a concert or linked to another popular sporting event would be two different things. I have also been to a horse show on the West Coast where a sortof famous singer performed, and there wasn't huge turnout, but again, it wasn't really spectator friendly or marketed properly, and the singer wasn't really all that famous. I think of the GP event as more like how the World Cup was in Vegas. Flashy lights, lots of color, and things to keep spectators' attention rather than a concert randomly thrown in to a longer horse show so that it's like two separate events.

In Canada, they had Chuckwagon races and a concert, and that was VERY exciting. I see potential for combining that concept of excitement and spectator attraction with a GP event.

[mvp]

A little late to the party, but Strassbur e-mail reveals a blind spot: He thinks top pros need to be relieved of the duty of teaching and training, and then laments the lack of up-and-coming talent.

First, I don't think the would-be Olympians are unduly saddled with up-down lessons.

Second, I don't think calling kids slackers is accurate or even helpful.

I think it takes way, way more money to learn to ride than it did when I was a sprout in the '80s. And I also think it's harder to find the barn-rat situation that fills in the rest of the horsemanship knowledge we all need.

If you have no coin, but talent, soft bones and an enormous work ethic as I did, you still have every reason to quit at college, or even before. As my family made clear, admissions to top university's were need blind. Admission to the horse world was dependent upon money (or at least way more than we had).

So I was faced with a blunt question that had an obvious answer: Would I rather invest myself in the project of getting into a tippy top college, or invest myself in getting into the very bottom of the horse training world?

[meupatdoes]

As part of my response to the "Where are the 20 somethings with well-rounded horse skills" issue, I agree with the posters who mentioned a few rides back that there is too much emphasis on showing.

Juniors commonly post on here the following:
-difficulty of finding 3'6" horses to practice on
-how do I do the BigEq on a budget
-how do I get more rides at horse shows
-help me be a working student at WEF

Parents commonly post saying that they will not be able to afford their DD all of the opportunities that other juniors get, so if the show ring is never going to be a level playing field should they even have their daughter ride at all or should she stick with soccer.


Very few juniors post about their accomplishments helping their LNT bring along a few ottbs every year for resale. They don't post about how their LNT has given them the opportunity to help out an older customer keeping their First Level horse fit, tuned up and elastic on the days the owner can't come out, giving them one or two horses' 'program' to 'manage'.



People seem primarily interested in learning how to EXECUTE a highly specialized, technical performance in the show ring. They are not so interested in BUILDING that ride, over and over again, by installing the basics on ottb after ottb after ottb or young horse after young horse after young horse. The 2'6" world is, after all, boring.

I believe that many of the juniors and adult amateurs who have achieved success in the show ring, either by being a working student to get there or being lucky enough to pay their own ride, would be utterly at a loss if someone handed them an ottb or a just-broke 4 1/2yo and said, "Using only a snaffle bit and a saddle, no draw reins, no martingales, no etc, you have four months to install a First Level ride that can score 70% and a 2'6"/3' course with lead changes that can be respectable in the show ring, entirely on your own with no lessons, no training rides, no assistance from a pro. You make the program, you systematically train the horse with a game plan from day one, you set the courses, you're on your own from the ground up. See you at the show in four months!"


Execute a ride? Sure.
Build it? Not so much.


And that is where even technically advanced, successful show ring riders are often fundamentally lacking in skill (or lacking in fundamental skill?) in this country.

[magnolia73]

Bob Johnson tried in Charlotte. They had live music at half time, and a guy who did rope tricks. The unfortunate thing was the first year, the competition was split up, (some kind of world cup format) so on Saturday night, you left not knowing the winner and had to buy Sunday tickets. One year they had you sit through C/A and J/AO classes that got boring and were kind of amateur hour.

They really reached out to the community with free tickets and all sorts of stuff. They got a decent turn out. But to be honest, I have not gone the last two years. It doesn't appeal all that much. I prefer outdoor events- love the Upperville GP and Cleveland GP.

[magnolia73]

I believe that many of the juniors and adult amateurs who have achieved success in the show ring, either by being a working student to get there or being lucky enough to pay their own ride, would be utterly at a loss if someone handed them an ottb or a just-broke 4 1/2yo and said, "Using only a snaffle bit and a saddle, no draw reins, no martingales, no etc, you have four months to install a First Level ride that can score 70% and a 2'6"/3' course with lead changes that can be respectable in the show ring, entirely on your own with no lessons, no training rides, no assistance from a pro. You make the program, you systematically train the horse with a game plan from day one, you set the courses, you're on your own from the ground up. See you at the show in four months!"


I'll tell ya- in my area I'd estimate 4 out of 5 PROS could not accomplish that.

[Serah]

I think this thread has made a major issue very clear... There seems to be a controversy in this sport on whether it revolves around the amateur or the pro... In most other sports, it is clear, it revolves around the PRO... You don't see pro football players missing practices because they are out coaching little league... We have coaches/instructors for that... Just as the email states... too many professionals have made their profession training amateurs in place of training themselves. The really good elite riders should be riding and competing internationally not standing at an ingate coaching a 3' rider.

Now before you flame me, that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with said 3' rider... its just sad that an elite rider with the talent and ability to represent our country doesn't have the support of its sport's community to go do that.



And why do the amateurs get all fired up about the hunter derbys? It should be a showcase for the professionals, there are a million classes for the amateurs to ride in and a freaking hunter classic for every single division (don't even get me started there) are you really going to whine that the hunter derbys are too high, thus discriminating against the ammies?! GIMME A BREAK... go get a drink, sit down with some friends and enjoy the showcase of beautiful rides and horses! And maybe if you're lucky enough you can tell everyone "thats my horse" with PRIDE as it walks in the ring... and Lord almighty, if you are competent to jump around at four foot then get on your horse and go have fun... but DO NOT ask the USHJA to dumb down what is supposed to be the "grand prix of hunters" !!!

AND please don't tell me the ammies aren't placing simply because they are ammies... thats just ridiculous

[mvp]

If we want to blame the kids of today for being too show oriented, then it seems tough to ask that top pros not have to train or teach but devote themselves exclusively to showing. Which is it? It seems that we have a hard time accepting more than kind of hero.

[Mac123]

Dammit, the computer just ate my very long response. Here's summary.

1. Horseshows are not (should not be) about the Pro or the Ammy. They are about the HORSE. It's not about the ammy getting another ribbon or the pro making the shortlist. It's about the HORSE. So if the pro is in the irons or the ammy is and that person showcases the horse to its best, so be it.

Modern horseshows are not about the horse, they are about the rider, and regardless of whether that means its centered around the pro or the ammy - and for sure each is focused on in different ways - there is still a big problem. The fact that there's even a discussion about who benefits from hunter derbies, the pro or the ammy, is a serious symptom of a far greater problem than you all are realizing........because finally, the focus has drifted away from the horse. And so this isn't a sport, it's an industry.

Pro = make money riding. Ammy = make money doing tax returns. The modern rider has made this distinction on of skill. It doesn't have to be that way. The horse doesn't know where you make your money, but he does know how well you ride. THAT is what we should all be focusing on.

2. The comparison between American and European riders is a SYSTEMIC difference; thus, the riders we turn out are going to be different.

Europe: riders are independent from a very early age. Many times they compete independently from trainers. They care for their horses. When the rider is ready to approach "pro-hood," they have already been competing by themselves and ask an older rider to help them. Younger riders can often be seen walking the course with more experienced riders. They don't pay for the help, it's just part of comraderie and mentoring. Marcus Ehning could often be seen walking with Ludger or Alois. And it's not about "pros" or "ammies" its about RIDERS. Alois Pollman Schweckhorst was a teacher while he competed at International levels. (Steinkraus was an ammie, don't forget). Thus the riders are free to be doing what they should be - developing the horses and helping younger riders develop their own horses. They do not handhold at the 2'6 ring or make sure the groom has tacked up little Suzy's horse on time. Suzy will already be warming up all by herself.

America: riders are dependent from a very early stage and STAY that way indefinitely. Their horses are managed, their riding schedule is managed, everything managed for them. They don't show by themselves, they don't clinic by themselves. And here's the crux: the American trainer WANTS it to be that way. The need the dependence of their clients, because honestly, most of them just aren't that good and they know that if their riders become educated, their riders just may know more than the trainer. So the American trainer is schooling all their clients horses and coaching every hack class (???) which leaves precious little time to develop their own string.

Before you get your panties in a wad, I'm not saying either one is better than the other. But this is how they ARE. The American system is focused on students while the European system is focused on developing horses. Of course there is a difference.

3. If you don't like what the American System is turning out, then for goodness sake, stop your armchair complaining and DO something to make a difference. Trainers, are you fostering independent, educated students? Not one or two, but a barnful? Do you encourage them to go to a show by themselves and even take a younger kid along with them?

Furthermore, with everyone being so hard on the 20somethings, what are YOU doing to help the next generation of pros? Are you looking for that kid who sits for hours watching the schooling ring because she can't afford to show very much and ask her to exercise a few in the wee hours of the morning? Do you ask one to hack a couple? Do you ask them to set your fences in the schooling ring (instead of a groom) in exchange for watching a class or two of theirs and giving some pointers? Do you give the young independent your phone number and tell them to bring a horse by if they're having problems with it? And do you then charge them for it?

People, people, a large part of the problem, here, is the PROs. The PROs set the standards, the example, the PRO's have the voice to affect change!!!! The Pros can make their riders more independent, more educated. The Pros can develop riders who are capable themselves so that they can focus on their own string. The PRO has the ability to change what is or at least make a valient effort trying. And if a group of grass roots trainers even TRIED, the grass roots would change. And that, my friends, would be a start.

I get so sick of everyone coming on an online BB and feeling like they have done something for the world by discussing ideas. Leader's don't discuss change, they MAKE change. What are you making? Are you perpetuating the system? Or are you trying to change it?

4. To those who are hard on the 20somethings and insist that there's a way to make if only one will work hard at it, with all due respect, your head is very deeply and igorantly buried in the sand. You have NO idea about living in reality in our modern sport.

[magnolia73]

You don't see pro football players missing practices because they are out coaching little league...

they don't have to. They are well paid for playing football. It pays their bills, and if not, they can do endorsements etc. Even a low paid player- one who makes $35,000 in a minor league- they don't have the expenses of a big pro.

Equestrian pros just don't make enough by competing to support their string.

[magnolia73]

They don't pay for the help, it's just part of comraderie and mentoring. Marcus Ehning could often be seen walking with Ludger or Alois.

OK, then how do they make money and pay their bills? I think part of the system of dependency- it pays bills. Bills that HAVE to be paid. Farm mortgages, gas, trailers, travel expenses, entry fees. How does Marcus Ehning get an income that pays for his healthcare, home, groceries, gas, clothes? Does he live off winnings? Do people pay him to compete their horses? How does a young rider starting make money to pay their bills in Europe?

[Mac123]

OK, then how do they make money and pay their bills? I think part of the system of dependency- it pays bills. Bills that HAVE to be paid. Farm mortgages, gas, trailers, travel expenses, entry fees. How does Marcus Ehning get an income that pays for his healthcare, home, groceries, gas, clothes? Does he live off winnings? Do people pay him to compete their horses? How does a young rider starting make money to pay their bills in Europe?

You miss the point. Its not that the top european riders don't have some paying students but that they take the time to come alongside and mentor up and coming riders without asking for payment. THIS is what the Americans lack at all levels, from the local barns to the BNR barns.

When was the last time you saw Frank Madden offer his opinion to someone without a coach working through an issue at at a show?

But In Europe, a lot of riders get their start working as riders for the breeding farms. PS, for example, employes something like a hundred riders if I understand correctly. It is by no means a comfortable living, but at least they are working as RIDERs, not grooms or muckers. When they begin having success with the youngsters they may be charged with the mid level horses and then the advanced horses. They may catch an eye of an owner and then ride for a particular owner. For example, both Ludger's and Isabell Werth's horses are owned by the same lady and she supplies them with amazing mounts - and I suspect a decent paycheck. And their percentage from purses from million dollar purses don't hurt. Then you add sponsorships and endorsements (Ludger makes eskadron, endorses the Jumper R, is sponsored by Audi, etc). And horse sales or commissions to the US.

Now obviously all riders won't be Ludger Beerbaum. But in Europe the main thing holding you back is your level of talent - because there are so many riders riding. In America, your talent doesn't matter so much if you have $$$, and if you have the talent of Ludger Beerbaum but don't have money and simply never get lucky, so long.

I don't know Marcus personally, so I wouldn't dare to guess how he makes a living, but for him, being such a BNR, I would guess he doesn't have great problems with that. I think most others live modestly, and I think more than we realize may have another job as well, as APS did in schoolteaching.

[Mac123]

I think one also has to look at the difference in competition costs. There was an article about one of our top riders who has been in Europe for a while (totally blanking on the name!!) and he said that for the same money, he can take 6 young horses to a show in Europe versus 1 in America. And, there's a lot more prize money even in small classes.

In America the shows are terribly expensive (guess what, people, we all keep going, so the costs aren't going to decrease) AND the millions of 3' divisions filled with horses don't pay out. In the jumpers, it's level 5 before decent money is paid out.

So pros over there can afford to show and compete without having 100 students footing the bill. Shows are closer, and so are even less expensive.

The Europeans start their horses in 3'6 classes. That's where we finish most of ours. The average pro has probably 5 horses in little classes for every working hunter or level 5-8 jumper - and that's conservative guess. So there's no access to prize money to offset entries. And as an aside, I don't think it's an indication of horseflesh but the ability to develop horses past what the currently are. But that's another whole topic. ;)

[Horseshowaddict]

Mac! THANK YOU for stating so wonderfully what I could not put into writing about the hard working, struggling 20 something!

[Trixie]

and Lord almighty, if you are competent to jump around at four foot then get on your horse and go have fun... but DO NOT ask the USHJA to dumb down what is supposed to be the "grand prix of hunters" !!!

See, my debate is this: If we offered a lower hunter derby style option, would it improve the quality of riders in this country and give them incentive and confidence to move up?

We spend an awful lot of time complaining that hunters don’t jump real courses, but it’s obvious there’s a prevalence of riders that would love to do that FORMAT over lower fences. Heck, you don’t even have to call it a derby. Make that the classic.

I love that there’s this option, this crème de la crème of hunter classes. But can we use it in a way that improves riders who are not yet at that level without making it less special?

[imapepper]

See, my debate is this: If we offered a lower hunter derby style option, would it improve the quality of riders in this country and give them incentive and confidence to move up?

We spend an awful lot of time complaining that hunters don’t jump real courses, but it’s obvious there’s a prevalence of riders that would love to do that FORMAT over lower fences. Heck, you don’t even have to call it a derby. Make that the classic.

I love that there’s this option, this crème de la crème of hunter classes. But can we use it in a way that improves riders who are not yet at that level without making it less special?

Yes there is an option....and I believe you said it. Make an AA Hunter classic and do it in format similar to a Hunter Derby. Make the AA classic similar but not exactly the same format. I think that every AA rider in the division would love to do a classic like that :) I know that I would :)

[wanderlust]

Pebble Beach did a Children's and AA 3' hunter derby last weekend, with $2500 in prize money for each section. I wasn't there to watch, but it more than filled, with 16 in one section and even more in the other, and on a weekend where entries in other divisions seemed very light.

[klmck63]

For real? You're whinging because your parents won't pay for horses if you quit school or you can't get a job because you might not get good grades?

#1: You're an adult...you don't HAVE to go to college if you don't want to. But you may have to say bye-bye to the meal ticket your parents are providing. You are making the choice to allow them to control you. That isn't to say college isn't a good idea...but it's not the end all be all. I went to college (got good grades while working 30+ hours a week, BTW), my brother didn't go...in fact, he barely graduated high school. He's more successful than I am.

#2: Many, many people can work a full-time job while in school and get good grades.

#3: Many people find a way to go to school, get good grades, AND own a horse while paying for it all themselves.


No dear, you're problem is fear. You're scared to take the risks (quitting school, losing parent funding, possibly being the 'starving artist', etc) necessary to do what you want to do. Don't blame society or your parents for that...blame yourself. You're taking the safe route and that usually gets you nowhere.

I think you've really misunderstood. I am not whining. I am in general very happy with life at the moment. But no, my parents won't pay for horses if I quit school. That's fine, I don't REALLY want to quit school. I would like to finish school and get a degree, it just wasn't necessarily my first choice. I would have preferred to consider my options a bit. If I could get a job, I would. However, the people who foot the bills (for horses, food, gas, whatever was left for University after scholarships, whatever) are ultimately in charge. They say I can't get a job then I can't.

If I do get a job I would have to quit school. I have no money to pay for anything so I would need to work at my minimum wage job for quite a while to save up enough money to support things like an apartment, food, riding and school. In the mean time, I'd have to couch surf.

What I meant to say (in succinct form) was that the problems that MOST twenty somethings who want to go pro face are NOT work ethic or dedication related. If you're set on going pro you're probably dedicated, educated, have a good work ethic etc. There are a lot of other life related factors that get in the way and set the timeline back or stop it altogether.

Anyways, this is just my situation. Come to your own conclusions on it if you like. These are JMO!

[Mac123]

Mac! THANK YOU for stating so wonderfully what I could not put into writing about the hard working, struggling 20 something!

You're welcome. But watch - I bet everyone else will ignore that post, because it harkens way too much of honesty.

It's funny, people cry for a solution, but watch them run when someone presents one that they may just have to actually be a part of.

[ontarget]

Mac, you repeated a lot of my present thoughts, some of which I previously stated. I also agree with you on doing something, not just saying something. However, how do we even start? This is the real discussion. I plan to try and set my own example, but I am one person, and presently a very insignificant and forgotten one at that.

The topic of running a horse show that caters to spectators (and, therefore, works to bring more interest and revenue to the equestrian world) is a real idea. Something that could be worked toward.

The issue of changing the US mentality is something not very real and something that I see as almost impossible to change, as you also pointed out. What are your solutions? Individuals, of course, can set themselves to these standards, but what about the people who simply find it easier to continue on as they are? What about the people (and they are clearly the majority or else we would not be having this discussion) who like the way things are?

There is only so much change that can happen at one time. How do we work toward this change?

[englishivy]

In response to your great questions:

3. If you don't like what the American System is turning out, then for goodness sake, stop your armchair complaining and DO something to make a difference. Trainers, are you fostering independent, educated students? Not one or two, but a barnful? Do you encourage them to go to a show by themselves and even take a younger kid along with them?

YES:yes:

Furthermore, what are YOU doing to help the next generation of pros? Are you looking for that kid who sits for hours watching the schooling ring because she can't afford to show very much and ask her to exercise a few in the wee hours of the morning? Do you ask one to hack a couple? Do you ask them to set your fences in the schooling ring (instead of a groom) in exchange for watching a class or two of theirs and giving some pointers? Do you give the young independent your phone number and tell them to bring a horse by if they're having problems with it?

Not all those exact situations, but in general terms YES.



My whole philosophy has ALWAYS been that I teach riding, not showing; if you can ride, you will be more than capable of showing well. That is not always the case in the reverse. But here is the problem: most people would rather take the shortcut and learn to show. Wanna know how I know? Because I am doing my best to stay in business.

Before people start saying all their nonsense about marketing, promotions, blah blah blah.......please read on.

The small group of clients I have LOVE me, love my style, are AMAZING horseman (girls? :lol:) and by god, they can RIDE. Some of them love my program because they, like me, love the process of learning to ride. They like the small victories, and find as much pleasure in getting that great w/t out of a just broken 3 year old as jumping a 3' course. But for others, it's much more simple: showing is a secondary goal b/c they don't have the fiances to make it a primary goal. They would love to be competive, but since they don't have the money to show, they're very content with the process of becoming a great rider.

Point #1: my experience is that of those able to afford a horse at a barn with exception educational opportunities that ALSO want to take the time to become "independent", is very small in numbers.

Most trainers make their money in showing fees, training fees to get those horses to the show ring, commissions on selling show horses, etc. Showing is the best PR in the biz. So it behooves trainers to be interested in clients who want to show extensively. You don't make a huge living off teaching once-a-weekers (and never off board LOL). You can't live off commissions of two or three sales a year under $5K. And you can't just give away all your time and resources to every kid who has talent but no financial backing.

Point #2: It is easier to make a living showcasing to the larger pool of "dependent" clients that want to show, rather than focusing on the smaller number of riders wanting to become "independent".

So please don't blame the pros for all of this "American system"; put some accontability back into the client who doesn't want to become independent, who doesn't want to learn to break the green bean, who'd rather pay the pro for the training rides than learn to do it him/herself. Put some blame on parents who want Suzie in the show ring as soon as possible, and will pay whatever it takes to get her in there and winning (and hopefully before the neighbor's kid is). Be frustrated with our society's shift of perception that continuing education isn't necessary, instant gratification is the norm, and as I said before, better to be ok at a lot of things than take the time to be great at one.

Because when all that happens, the grassroots trainer that is trying to do all the (noble) things you wish we would, is having a hard time paying the bills.

[Equilibrium]

This may sound really stupid and I may not get my point across but I will try. Take Ireland for instance. You can genrally get anywhere in this country in about 3 hours unless you're at the top of Donegal or the bottom of Kerry. Cuts down on shipping and also overnighting expenses.

Secondly, our shows don't come with ratings. There is none of the AA, A, B or whatever it is. You take your horses to jump. You can do Grand Prix's all the way down to 4yo's. A lot of the jumping shows have hunters as well, but them some are just jumping. Sometimes even your smaller local shows will have point jumping. So basically you don't have to travel miles to get what you need. There is no stigma, I guess that's what you'd call it, with going to a smaller show in Clare rather than a big show in Cavan. Your horses are out jumping, getting points, and getting seen.

I believe only England and Ireland are the only countries with actual hunters though they do differ from back home in the States. Once you get to the Continent it's pure jumping, dressage, or evening. Yes, I'm sure they have local shows with more activities going on, but you've got your 3 sports and they are catered to. Being and International by going from Germany to Holland is a heck of a lot easier than packing up from NY and going to FLA for the winter so of course riders will compete against international riders all the time. You go to the shows same as in America, but one Country is similar to a State, or 3 combined. Being international is just a bit easier from a demographic standpoint.

Yes, classes are cheaper and they have programs to develop horses all over Europe. That is the big difference. But it would be awfully hard to develop something like that back home. I know here in Ireland owners send their horses off to the Army Equitations school in the hopes their horse will get picked to be in the program. It's a good program, but me as an owner and breeder, would be reluctant to let my horse go off for 6 or so months with no way of knowing if my horse will make it. Not to mention if they get injured then I've got nothing. But this is how good horses are found.

As far as evening goes, well in England and Ireland you'd be hard pressed to find any kids who ride who don't or haven't done some form of eventing. Most kids back home choose hunters, not because it's easier but because it's what is done. And I'm not in any way saying hunter riders can't ride, but eventing really makes you that bit more all around and able to cope with some things kids in America may just not have to cope with. Look after 12 plus years of galloping racehorses, the first time I went on a cross country school over here with a girl of 16 nearly made me pee my pants. Especially when, while galloping along a lovely wooded area, I saw her disappear in front of me! Next thing I know I'm sailing through the air on a drop off. My 16 year old leader said, this is the baby course you know. Things are just different.

Terri

[Cloverbarley]

Europe: riders are independent from a very early age. Many times they compete independently from trainers. They care for their horses. When the rider is ready to approach "pro-hood," they have already been competing by themselves and ask an older rider to help them. Younger riders can often be seen walking the course with more experienced riders. They don't pay for the help, it's just part of comraderie and mentoring. Marcus Ehning could often be seen walking with Ludger or Alois. And it's not about "pros" or "ammies" its about RIDERS. Alois Pollman Schweckhorst was a teacher while he competed at International levels. (Steinkraus was an ammie, don't forget). Thus the riders are free to be doing what they should be - developing the horses and helping younger riders develop their own horses. They do not handhold at the 2'6 ring or make sure the groom has tacked up little Suzy's horse on time. Suzy will already be warming up all by herself.

America: riders are dependent from a very early stage and STAY that way indefinitely.

Spot on! That is exactly one of the main differences.

The other main difference is that European children do not need many of the things that their US counterparts deem essential. Many shows, high-calibre and locals are generally within grasp of many European children. They can (and do) hack to shows, often taking an hour or two to get to the venues (which may only be 15-20 mins by trailer). These children get up at 4am to get their horses bathed, plaited and looking just right. They do not have helpers doing the work for them. They then hack to their shows, compete, and then hack home again. For children with trailers, they do the same work but just don't have to get up so early :).

Children in Europe are "spotted" waaaay before the age of their 20's, and if they aren't then they still have the wherewithall to do it themselves IF they have the talent and dedication.

Obviously I am speaking generally here as Europe is not a small place ... however this was my experience growing up in a number of different areas within Europe. Showing was easy for those who were competent. We did not need parental help (apart from paying for boarding costs for our horses) and most of the kids I grew up with did not have a trainer, neither did I. We either made it ourselves .. or we didn't make it!

In the States, there are nowhere near the amount of shows we have in Europe. The journeys are simply not doable unless you have a trailer and are prepared to travel vast distances to get to competitions, and if these kids do not have a willing parent or trainer to take them to these shows, then sorry but they aren't going.

Taking this slightly away from the actual topic, but what I see as a major disadvantage to US children versus EU children is the amount of time US children (and adults) spend in arenas, going round and round and perhaps learning how to win shows but definitely at the expense of having a very well rounded, balanced and competent manner of riding. EU children spend much more time hacking out, flying around home-made jumping courses (generally FAR higher than the jumping classes they compete at), taking their horses/ponies into every type of imaginable situation, generally without their parents knowledge. US children are far more restricted by all the adults around them so they simply are not gaining the type of experience needed to make it. Riding around an arena is fine, but in many parts of Europe this is something kids do once every couple of months, certainly not almost every ride they ever do.

I actually do see change though over here. There are more lower calibre shows starting up, giving more children the opportunity to compete to whatever standards they are at. Children have to start at base-level and consistently be bettering themselves before moving on up.

One thing is generally identical over here as it is in Europe though - the kid who shows the ability will be the kid who gets the rides, regardless of how much hard-grind work they do. Some children have riding ability, some don't.

[Mac123]

Real quick before I go ride...

Mac, you repeated a lot of my present thoughts, some of which I previously stated. I also agree with you on doing something, not just saying something. However, how do we even start? This is the real discussion. I plan to try and set my own example, but I am one person, and presently a very insignificant and forgotten one at that.

The topic of running a horse show that caters to spectators (and, therefore, works to bring more interest and revenue to the equestrian world) is a real idea. Something that could be worked toward.

The issue of changing the US mentality is something not very real and something that I see as almost impossible to change, as you also pointed out. What are your solutions? Individuals, of course, can set themselves to these standards, but what about the people who simply find it easier to continue on as they are? What about the people (and they are clearly the majority or else we would not be having this discussion) who like the way things are?

There is only so much change that can happen at one time. How do we work toward this change?

I think we have to find the things that are most important and go about doing something about it. If your heart says that making shows spectator-friendly are important, find other like-minded folk, form and informal organization, and begin a dialogue with the USHJA and USEF, asking for their help and recommendations. When you have a show coming to the area, approach local newspapers and journals, asking them to come out and cover the highlight event. Approach show management and ask if they would be willing to offer "special" classes, and on the night of those classes, some entertainment. Ask them to help market the show to spectators, making it appealing to a non-horse person. TONS of people love horses and not many have access. I think a lot of people would be interested in seeing what its all about. Have a Pony Petting or something. Do you know how many parents would love to take their kids to pet ponies or even have pony rides? Can't be that hard to have a few pros bring their lesson ponies for the day.

If you're a pro....CHANGE your program. Begin going to less shows and recommend that the saved money from the clients is put into more lessons to help develop the riders and the horses. Except for the people who want to stay at 2' for personal reasons, make riders RIDERS. Hold clinics. Hold movie nights where you analyize the top riders round. Start educational symposiums.

Get together with your local professional friends and talk about these issues and come up with a plan. If ALL of you decide to cut back on shows but ALL of you combine your barns for educational days, it could be a cool thing.
Pros, you make the decision on how your program is to be run. There are obviously some hard questions that go along with it and you HAVE to make a living, but start identifying those things you can do.

Do you have kids that are independent riders? Start a new program at your local shows where the kids comepete in a special class where they are "cloistered" away from their trainers for the day. They have to prepare their horses, prepare for the class, and walk and compete an eq-type class and then talk to the judge.

These are just off the top of my head while I'm sitting in my pajamas. There are SO many things that can be done that will start little changes if only people have a little creativity and guts.

In response to your great questions:


My whole philosophy has ALWAYS been that I teach riding, not showing; if you can ride, you will be more than capable of showing well. That is not always the case in the reverse. But here is the problem: most people would rather take the shortcut and learn to show. Wanna know how I know? Because I am doing my best to stay in business.

Before people start saying all their nonsense about marketing, promotions, blah blah blah.......please read on.

The small group of clients I have LOVE me, love my style, are AMAZING horseman (girls? :lol:) and by god, they can RIDE. Some of them love my program because they, like me, love the process of learning to ride. They like the small victories, and find as much pleasure in getting that great w/t out of a just broken 3 year old as jumping a 3' course. But for others, it's much more simple: showing is a secondary goal b/c they don't have the fiances to make it a primary goal. They would love to be competive, but since they don't have the money to show, they're very content with the process of becoming a great rider.

Point #1: my experience is that of those able to afford a horse at a barn with exception educational opportunities that ALSO want to take the time to become "independent", is very small in numbers.

Most trainers make their money in showing fees, training fees to get those horses to the show ring, commissions on selling show horses, etc. Showing is the best PR in the biz. So it behooves trainers to be interested in clients who want to show extensively. You don't make a huge living off teaching once-a-weekers (and never off board LOL). You can't live off commissions of two or three sales a year under $5K. And you can't just give away all your time and resources to every kid who has talent but no financial backing.

Point #2: It is easier to make a living showcasing to the larger pool of "dependent" clients that want to show, rather than focusing on the smaller number of riders wanting to become "independent".

So please don't blame the pros for all of this "American system"; put some accontability back into the client who doesn't want to become independent, who doesn't want to learn to break the green bean, who'd rather pay the pro for the training rides than learn to do it him/herself. Put some blame on parents who want Suzie in the show ring as soon as possible, and will pay whatever it takes to get her in there and winning (and hopefully before the neighbor's kid is). Be frustrated with our society's shift of perception that continuing education isn't necessary, instant gratification is the norm, and as I said before, better to be ok at a lot of things than take the time to be great at one.

Because when all that happens, the grassroots trainer that is trying to do all the (noble) things you wish we would, is having a hard time paying the bills.


First, while I think its great that you say "yes" you are that great trainer, you're not my point. I spoke in generalities because the general population are NOT doing those things.

You misread my post. I said SOME of the issues in the system can be blamed on the Pros. Not all.

Immediately, we cannot change society's perceptions, the legal issues, the show costs, etc. Some can be changed long term, but most of that, we have to work with now.

We have to focus on what we can change NOW - and that's the Pro's approach.

Here's an example. Everyone complains about how the crossrails and 2'6 classes fill all day and there's no 3'6 riders. Well, now, whose fault is that exactly? If the TRAINERS would TRAIN their riders go jump more than a crossrail or a 2' flower box for 3 years running, do you think it might be different?

Trainers, show management often will add the higher classes if there's interest. So before you complain about the little classes like we all do because they show a lack of good riders and all that, do you have a group of four riders that can show at 3'3 or in a derby that could fill a class? Do you perpetuate with walk-trot and crossrails and short stirrup riders?

I get that that's what parents WANT, but how about saying "We can do 4 lessons a week if you want to speed up the process, but Suzy cannot show until the 2'6 level."

And before someone says that few horses can show at 3'6.....I believe that only to be true with the trainers who are incapable of DEVELOPING 3'6 horses. The MADE 3'6 horse is expensive. The quarter horse who currently jumps 2'6 but COULD jump 3'6 with athletic development does not. And it can be done, it truly can. I refuse to believe that our horses "can't" jump higher than what a little dog can - but they often need development to be able to do so.

[luvs2ridewbs]

Just 2 comments- Alot of young professionals run their program like that. They do more teaching then showing and are building their students up to bigger and better things. Its just less prevelant at the top of our sport.
Second- I don't think the question is "can a horse jump 3'6" its "can it show and win at 3'6" especially in the hunter divisions.

[redhorse5]

Two simple problems with not so simple solutions.

Equestrian sports are not popular spectator sports here like they are in Europe. Go to any Grand Prix and other than the owners, show participants and trainers there are precious few in the stands, if there are stands. Here in Kentucky we are paying an astounding $34 million to the basketball coach at UK for a 5 or 6 year contract. Until that kind of money is pumped into our sport we don't have a chance. My European friends who don't ride all know who Anky is.

Second, most " BNT trainers" are training "not so green" European warmbloods. The days are over when juniors are put on the recent OTTB under the tutelage of a great trainer. I'm not talking about the low end trainers. So don't post here and say "Oh, I'm training one now." You're probably not likely to be showing in Wellington or Indio this season. Reality is that the wealthy parent of a promising junior is looking for a "made" European warmblood. You can't blame the parents for wanting a safe horse for their kid. The "trainers" aren't training and the youngsters aren't riding. They are taking supervised lessons on a school master type.

I'm home sick with the flu so go ahead and rip this up. I can't feel any worse.

[mvp]

The local pros that do put in the time to make riders, not ribbon winners lose their shirts in comparison to the MNTs where these clients go next, and certainly in comparison to BNTs. We have set up a system that says "AA shows (complete with docile, well-heeled clients) or bust." So one solution is to put some glory and money back into the local scene. It sounds like there's a smaller gap between the parts of the training industry serving "local" and tops shows in Europe. Is that right?

Also, I have to agree with others who are puzzled by the "He's a 2'6" horse" phenomenon. I was taught that just about any horse can jump a 3' course. This was why, in days of yore, the 3' division was looked down upon in comparison with the 3'6" or regular working hunters. It was also assumed that anyone who wanted to show could learn to ride well enough to do a 3'6" course. I think that is because showing meant a great deal of do-it-yourself riding and conditioning that now isn't necessarily part of modern horse owning.

Brought up in the '80s and capable of making my own, I'm surprised by a couple of things.

First, I think I'm priced out of the 3'6" market, no matter what my ambition or skill. Yes, I think I could make my own. But what would I tell someone who couldn't or didn't want to? In other words, people must find a way to make the 3' or even 2'6" their goal because they can't afford to jump higher.

Second, I'm surprised by how often I run into confused looks from trainers vets and farriers who see how involved I am with my horse's care. They aren't openly critical, just surprised. In addition, it's really hard to find a facility with the care and footing you'd like unless it belongs to a trainer with an active program. Again, it's tough to mesh the independent ammy's knowledge or way of doing things with the fixed routine of the trainer's program. In other words, I can see why people who stay in the sport long enough to get to a training barn aren't taught to be independent horse people.

[Whisper]

I do vaulting, and we've been trying to become more popular/recognised by doing demos at other horse shows, rodeos, fairs, local community parades for Christmas and 4th of July, and so forth. We have the advantage of music, physical wow factor, and interesting costumes, and even the low-level classes often draw non-horsey spectators. I've seen a couple of demos where they pair off a Reiner or working cowhorse with a dressage horse, so running a show-jumping demo (preferably high, with lots of tight turns) at a rodeo or some such that is already televised might be a good idea. Things like Dressage in the Wine Country, Cavalia, Medieval Times, etc. draw a lot of non-horsey folks. I think that getting a cluster of high-end classes that are interesting for spectators, and getting some advertising out ahead of time is a great idea!

I was a barn rat growing up, but there weren't any instructors there, it was all "self-care." I did a lot of "will muck for rides or $5" in Jr. High and the first year of high school (before the barn was sold and turned into townhomes), and hauled 1-2 wheelbarrow loads of just manure, no bedding, out of stall/paddock combos! As an adult, I've tried to learn more about horsemanship, and even offered to pay the full price of a regular lesson on rainy days to work on things like clipping, bandaging, braiding, etc. I was outright refused, or they said they would, but never got around to it, until a couple of years ago. That one instructor taught me a huge amount! I've read about all of this stuff, but that's very different from doing it hands on! I currently get to ride 7 horses for free (well, I do a little bit of chores to help out), and I've had a lot of similar options in the past. Most were backyard trail types, but a couple were very well-trained critters whose owner was pregnant, on vacation, etc. If I were more talented, I might have been able to parlay that into a part-time job, but I'm just in the advanced beginner/beginning intermediate category.

I've competed in some of the beginner classes, and it's a lot of fun, and I think it's nice to have concrete goals and milestones. I don't think the beginner classes discourage people from moving up.

[showmom858]

DD rode in the 3' Hunter Chase at Pebble Beach for 2 weeks during the summer. The class was for $2,500 and during the first week there were 29 entries (DD was 3rd) and the second week there were 23 entries (DD was 2nd). The first week there was a split rail option and our trainer had DD ride all of the inside turns. The second week I was not there, but DD said it was a similar course. Best of all it was fun and challenging (her horse loved it!) and she won almost $1,000. DD would love for the AA shows here in CA to have more courses like this especially at the 3'6" level which she is moving up to next season.

[theblondejumper]

I am a 20 year old college student and have been around horse for the past 12 years. At this point I can honestly say that my horsemanship skills surpass my riding skills. I am still the "kid" that spends as much time as possible at the barn, watching lessons, helping the vet and farrier, helping to teach basic horsemanship to the lesson kids. Throughout my riding career, I have had some bad horse, some bad trainers, and some bad falls. All of these things along with a lack of financial and emotional/ mental support from my parents have perhaps at least in the short term limited how far I have come with my riding.


Yep this is where I got stuck too. After a break from burnt-out I'm content to take weekly lessons. It's a pretty common problem for us 20 year olds.

Good luck hrsgirl07!!

[Sukey1971]

To me the OP was not talking just about young people not being willing to work hard, but about the failure of us lousy little flea-ridden amateurs to properly support and idolize elite riders so that they don’t (horrors) have to teach an amateur or (gasp) develop their own horses. My response to the OP is that horse sports in the US is a participant-driven sport, not a spectator sport, and so the big commercial sponsorships are not there and are not going to be there in the foreseeable future. No, it is not the duty of the lousy little flea-ridden amateurs to step in and make up for it by sending their dollars to the elite riders instead of using them to feed their own horses.

Yes, the elite riders SHOULD earn their keep by giving back to the sport in the form of training young horses and riders -- yes, even low level riders, because it is critical for them to get good instruction from able, motivated people. That will go a long way to help solve the "20-somethings-and-their-lack-of-work-ethic" problem.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I've seen an interesting trend that might explain some of these issues:

I braid for my barn, and make decent pocket money (as a college student) doing so. I mentioned to my BO that I'd like to hold a braiding "clinic" during which I could teach the teenaged girls how to braid so that their parents could save some $$ during the season. The idea was nixed immediately. Reason: how would I (the braider) make any money if everyone knew how to do it themselves??

At first, I was miffed by this response. Then I realized that as the 20something who has acquired the skills to take care of my horse's wrapping/braiding/daycare (etc.- the "horsemanship skills" being discussed here), I'm not a profitable client. I pay board. Because I don't need to pay for "extras".

It seems that there are two types of programs for young riders these days:

1. Ones in which the trainer/owner has a vested interest, both financially and theoretically in producing a good rider with good horsemanship skills. These programs are typically less-profitable, and typically suffer financial restrictions that keep them from regularly showcasing their students at the rated level. Riders are typically middle-income, and they save money by doing the "extras" themselves. Obviously, the program is not making money from said "extras", but clients/students are learning how to do it themselves.

2. The big show barns in which the trainer/owner has a business obligation to require clients to pay for all the extras. These programs avoid (is discourage too strong a word?) teaching their students how to do things like wrap/braid/muck out properly/administer meds/clip/pull manes, etc, because they are making money charging for it instead. A lot of them tack on an additional fee to things like braiding (when braiding for a larger barn, it is not unusual to get one check from the farm itself. I assume the farm adds $10/mane or so onto the bill in order to make a little money as the "middle man".), clipping, etc. Because they provide a "full-service" atmosphere, they are able to attract clients with the means to do "bigger" things. Additionally, because these operations are making more money, they can afford to showcase their students at the rated level.

It's how business currently works in the industry at this point. Perhaps it's unfortunate, but I'm a firm believer in setting goals, then finding the right program to achieve them. For a young rider, it is important not only to decide what program is going to benefit their RIDING skills, but also what program will benefit their HORSEMANSHIP skills. Sometimes this means sacrificing one thing while working on the other, but in order to become well-rounded horse people, it is critical to evaluate the potential skills gained in all types of environments.

[Jsalem]

Well, I guess my program falls into your "big show barn" category as I offer all those services and make a living doing so. However, I don't "have a vested interest" in keeping my clients from becomming independent horsemen. Just yesterday, we had a lovely puncture wound on a pony and I took the time to grab every kid in the barn to discuss the injury and it's treatment. All the kids gathered round and got a little "horsemanship nugget" that I hope they'll be able to use one day.

But here's the deal with the services. Take clipping for example: I charge a very modest rate to clip the horses. Could my students learn to do it? Of course and I'm happy to teach them. However, here's the reality. (I actually have had all these scenarios happen):
1. Student uses my clippers to clip their horse to save money on the service. At best, the blades get dull and I have to sharpen. At worse, they break my clippers and don't fess up and I'm stuck with the repair.
2. Student (or parent) informs me that they don't want to have that charge and will clip themselves. We're packing up to leave for a show and it's not done. I end up having to do it at the last minute when we all have other things to do. I fuss at student and I wind up being the bad guy.
3. Student tries to clip horse and has trouble. Horse becomes unruly and downright dangerous and we have to put ourselves at risk to retrain it.

So, it's really just more professional to do it myself.

The way I look at it is this: I really, really want my students to learn to ride and become horsemen. I do my very best to teach them. Some will learn, some won't. I have a few students that I'm really proud of and they are WORKERS. I've given plenty to those workers who need a helping hand. I've taught lessons and coached for free. But folks, I don't think the problem lies with trainers not giving enough for free. Back to the original point of this thread- the U.S. Riding Culture. We are a service oriented country. The trainers are providing services that the clients want. I'd love it if I could make a decent living just training and not running a barn, but that's not gonna happen. My clients don't have the time to do-it-themselves.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

The way I look at it is this: I really, really want my students to learn to ride and become horsemen. I do my very best to teach them. Some will learn, some won't. I have a few students that I'm really proud of and they are WORKERS. I've given plenty to those workers who need a helping hand. I've taught lessons and coached for free. But folks, I don't think the problem lies with trainers not giving enough for free. Back to the original point of this thread- the U.S. Riding Culture. We are a service oriented country. The trainers are providing services that the clients want. I'd love it if I could make a decent living just training and not running a barn, but that's not gonna happen. My clients don't have the time to do-it-themselves.

I'm sorry if my post came off as "be all, end all". I understand that there are operations that manage to provide a solid education while producing top notch riders. I do think these programs are few and far between, and often, become sought after, as people realize both factors are typically not emphasized on one side or the other.

It's wonderful that you're able to teach your students about basic horsemanship skills, and that it has worked out well for your business plan. It seems as if you are also the type that won't "do anything to make a buck", and that you value the quality of your students as horsepeople as well as riders. I think that's becoming rare in this sport, and hope that my (future, lol) kids can grow up in a similar environment.

[showmom858]

As the parent of a 15 year old DD (hs sophomore) who would like to do nothing more than be at the barn 24/7, I do appreciate that our trainer has a full service option if needed.

DD has an incredible amount of homework each night and hates that she can not get to spend the kind of time at the barn she did all summer. I keep hearing at least once a week, "I really want to be homeschooled to ride more."

Yesterday trainer wanted DD to ride another horse besides her own, but without having help at the barn she would not have been able to do this because of the set lesson schedule. Since she could bring her horse back and the guys had the other horse ready for her she was able to get both of them hacked.

DD spends all day at the barn on Saturday after her lesson as she works for the trainer which helps to offset show fees. She would do it on Sunday also, but she has to have a day to devote to homework.

[luvs2ridewbs]

So if these "full service" show barns are only creating riders who can ride, how are they creating industry professionals? Or are these professionals only riders who know how to hire out whatever else they need such as a barn manager that has horsemanship skills.

[NatalieRebecca]

Hey I saw that email too--

It's a blogger on MyHorse.com, you can check out his other stuff at: http://myhorse.com/blogs/john_strassburger/index.aspx

[englishivy]

First, I don't know why this thread has brought out the debate team in me. I usually don't get so into posts. :lol:

I agree with Mac that Pros carry a certain responsibility in changing the industry in which we work for the betterment of our sport. But that is the problem: until clients want a different type of program, the ones we have now will not change. Five local farms can form a union so to speak, and cut back showing....but then their point chasing clients will go down the road to the non-union barn to continue showing. What you are asking is for pros to take a financial hit for principle. Um, I don't see that happening. :uhoh:

You can only educate those who want to learn, only help those that want to be helped. If MORE clients wanted to become "independent" and learn the skills not always offered at the full service farms, the law of supply and demand says programs will change to accommodate that.


Everyone needs to work together if we have any chance of improving our sport. That means pros teaching it all, clients willing to learn it all, and USEF, etc. recognizing the need to help "mainstream" our elite sport.

[klmck63]

I've seen an interesting trend that might explain some of these issues:

I braid for my barn, and make decent pocket money (as a college student) doing so. I mentioned to my BO that I'd like to hold a braiding "clinic" during which I could teach the teenaged girls how to braid so that their parents could save some $$ during the season. The idea was nixed immediately. Reason: how would I (the braider) make any money if everyone knew how to do it themselves??

At first, I was miffed by this response. Then I realized that as the 20something who has acquired the skills to take care of my horse's wrapping/braiding/daycare (etc.- the "horsemanship skills" being discussed here), I'm not a profitable client. I pay board. Because I don't need to pay for "extras".

It seems that there are two types of programs for young riders these days:

1. Ones in which the trainer/owner has a vested interest, both financially and theoretically in producing a good rider with good horsemanship skills. These programs are typically less-profitable, and typically suffer financial restrictions that keep them from regularly showcasing their students at the rated level. Riders are typically middle-income, and they save money by doing the "extras" themselves. Obviously, the program is not making money from said "extras", but clients/students are learning how to do it themselves.

2. The big show barns in which the trainer/owner has a business obligation to require clients to pay for all the extras. These programs avoid (is discourage too strong a word?) teaching their students how to do things like wrap/braid/muck out properly/administer meds/clip/pull manes, etc, because they are making money charging for it instead. A lot of them tack on an additional fee to things like braiding (when braiding for a larger barn, it is not unusual to get one check from the farm itself. I assume the farm adds $10/mane or so onto the bill in order to make a little money as the "middle man".), clipping, etc. Because they provide a "full-service" atmosphere, they are able to attract clients with the means to do "bigger" things. Additionally, because these operations are making more money, they can afford to showcase their students at the rated level.

It's how business currently works in the industry at this point. Perhaps it's unfortunate, but I'm a firm believer in setting goals, then finding the right program to achieve them. For a young rider, it is important not only to decide what program is going to benefit their RIDING skills, but also what program will benefit their HORSEMANSHIP skills. Sometimes this means sacrificing one thing while working on the other, but in order to become well-rounded horse people, it is critical to evaluate the potential skills gained in all types of environments.

:yes:

I think this brings up a good point. I suppose my trainer would fit into the former category, kind of. Or maybe it's another category all together. My trainer is a former Olympian but her and all of her clients are middle to upper middle class. She doesn't own her own barn and keeps her horses at home. Her and her husband do all their horse chores themselves. The barn she coaches out of (where I board) isn't really a full service barn. All feeding/mucking/turnout is done for you but people would laugh if I was looking for someone else to clean up my horse and get him ready for me.

At shows, my coach would be pretty unimpressed with my work ethic if I was hoping someone else was going to clean my stall, wrap or feed my horse and do all that sort of stuff. She and her husband do it all themselves for their horses and expect their clients to do it the same way. It's not to say we wouldn't trade a night check for breakfast feed with another owner or something, but you're expected to pull your own weight. I think just about the only thing she doesn't do herself is clip.

It's not perfect. Our vet happens to live on site so some aren't really up to date on emergency medical care since he can be there in two minutes. Even then, I think it's pretty close to the best of both worlds.

I don't know, never having been to Europe, but I would suspect that this is the more "European" way of doing things. Or at the very least, the more traditional and old fashioned way of doing things.

[EKLay]

Fascinating discussion! :)

In my opinion, I am in the camp of having the talent/willing to do whatever it takes but not having the financial support necessary to succeed. :) Not whining, I WILL figure out a way to own horses/succeed to the level I desire to, but that time is not now.

Here's my $0.02 - I am a 20 something female who has been horse crazy since my parents can remember. (they apparently have pic/video of me preferring horsey toys from a month or two old) My parents did not (still don't!) understand my obsession with horses and flat-out refused to ever pay for riding lessons. When I said (and demonstrated) that I would work to pay for the lessons if they would help me find a barn/drive me, they refused that as well. I decided that I was going to learn all I could from books and did so. (I was reading books on dystocias when I was 12 because I'd run out of all the other horse books and even when I was in college I had broader horse knowledge than most of my peers.)

Basically, I ended up volunteering at theraputic riding centers and vet clinics until I made the right contacts that would let me work at barns. I learned anything I could get anyone to teach me and did everything I could to get hands-on horse time, whether that meant mucking out, groundwork, barnwork or riding.

Throughout college I went through multiple horse internships and eventually got my degree in Equine Science but I was in the same boat as an earlier poster. Because my groundwork and skills OFF the horses were so good, the places I interned wanted me to do that for them, not give me a chance to ride. In college I desperately wanted to get on the IHA team, but couldn't afford it because being on the show team cost as much as tuition and you were expected to work 20-40 hours a week at the school's barn taking care of the horses. It was either have a job to pay for college or not have a job and be expected to somehow come up with double tuition. Right.

Now, after college, having the degree that I do has actually been a hindrance to my getting a job! While I have two college degrees, everyone looks at my Equine Science degree says "what's that?" then tells me I should find a good job in my degree field (uh-huh) because I'm not qualified for or I'm over qualified for the position I'm applying for. *knocks head on desk* Trust me, if I could get a horse job that would support me, I'd take it! :)

So yes, in my experience, financial support is vital to succeeding with horses. Without it, even with talent and tons of experience it's not going to happen unless you are extremely lucky. I will find a way to make my horse dreams succeed without luck, but I also know it's going to take me alot longer than someone who's had the proper financial backing. ;)

[Horseshowaddict]

showmom858- Thats great that your daughter wants to be at the barn 24/7. The difference is there are TONS of kids and 20 somethings that cant even afford to keep a horse, much less pay for FULL SERVICE. Most of them are the ones who work their butts off taking care of the horse that your DD just finished riding, while she goes and gets to ride trainers other horse because they are clients and they get the extra rides. Not the kids who scrounge and work every extra hour that they can, just for a lesson on someone's 2nd string 3' horse, and then have just as much homework to do as your DD.
This is NOT a personal attack on you or your DD. Its just the situation from the other side of the "tracks" so to speak. And also, as HideYourHeart, and Mac stated, the REASON why you eventually stop seeing 20 somethings (mostly once they turn into 30 somethings) at barns in the top of the industry, because it is a vicious circle with very little rewards.

Once again, Im not attacking anyone. Its called reality and business, some people have the $$ to be able to do this, and the trainers want to keep customers happy.

[hideyourheart03]

Then I realized that as the 20something who has acquired the skills to take care of my horse's wrapping/braiding/daycare (etc.- the "horsemanship skills" being discussed here), I'm not a profitable client. I pay board. Because I don't need to pay for "extras".





BINGO.

Us 20-somethings are not profitable to professionals at all.
As Junior working students, we at least helped them cut costs. As college students who now can't horse show as much and can't work in the barn due to other obligations, we are really "worthless" clients - we pay for board and lessons, the end.

[showmom858]

Horseshowaddict - The example I was using about my DD being able to ride another horse was just an example of how having full service worked for my DD to help the trainer that day. DD does not use a groom on her normal riding days as this is an extra charge at our barn that is optional and I do not pay for it. She grooms her own horse most of the time. If she has a lot of homework on a certain night then I will pay for grooming after she rides so she can get home quicker. Also, DD works hard at the barn every Saturday after she rides because the trainer has offered reduced fees at the shows for the kids that do this.

[hideyourheart03]

Showmom - having had a discussion with horseshowaddict, I think you missed her point. It is absolutely NOT that your DD doesn't work hard. It is that, because you are a good PAYING customer who will spring for full service (on occasion, if not regularly), your DD gets the rides while those who bust their butts in the barn but provide very little profit to Ms. Trainer, do not. Her intent is to keep you happy first and foremost and she does so by offering rides to your DD and not others who don't have the means to begin with. This furthers the problem of those without great means being unable to get rides.

(Correct me if I'm wrong HSA.)

[Cloverbarley]

Many of us have DDs who work hard with their mountains of homework ;). My DD has 5 horses. She does absolutely everything for those horses, am and pm, weekdays and weekends and she still does her homework and gets great grades. When she competes, it is her getting up in the early hours to bath and braid whichever horses she has decided to take. All I do is wander out of bed, do my regular morning chores for the rest of the horses, hook the trailer up and drive to the venue. She does everything else - and if she didn't, sorry but she wouldn't have any horses as I'd sell them. My DD knows nothing other than this as we have brought her up to be independent and self sufficient, not to rely on others to do everything for her.

[imapepper]

BINGO.

Us 20-somethings are not profitable to professionals at all.
As Junior working students, we at least helped them cut costs. As college students who now can't horse show as much and can't work in the barn due to other obligations, we are really "worthless" clients - we pay for board and lessons, the end.

It's not just the 20 somethings with this problem ;) It's anyone that is fairly self sufficient and does not have the $$$ to go to enough shows or even pay for regular lessons. The poor 20 somethings are just getting blamed because that is where the next crop of BNTs should be coming from except that the current system has not developed the proper skillset for these future BNTs. The people who do have the management skills and understand how to take care of horses properly are not the people who got the most riding and show experience so therefore are not the people that will become our next BNTs :( It's just the way it is. There are many factors to becoming sucessful in the horse business and unfortunately for many of us poor slobs, money is one factor that you cannot do without anymore. And you can give me stories about BNT/BNR who made it that were not mega rich.....but they had family support and were reasonably well off enough to get the mileage they needed to be sucessful.

[Cloverbarley]

You know what, I must stand in the minority here because if I am having someone ride and compete/exercise/ride my horses I want the best rider, doing the best job with that horse. I couldn't care less whether that person has no money and helps out at my barn for rides or is my most lucrative boarding client, for me it is the "best man for the job" who gets that job. Maybe that's the European in me ;).

And again, I very much enjoy the boarders I have who can do it all for themselves because I don't actually want to be bothered doing all these itty bitty peanut paying jobs for them, but I don't charge for these extras, I will help whoever needs help and I try to make sure I spread my time with each of my boarders so that everyone gets equal amounts of my time.

[Horseshowaddict]

Ok, trying to clarify a little bit more.

The majority of kids at full service barns, or those that have the option of full service are having their hobby/sport/passion supported by their parents in varying degrees. This DOES NOT mean that these kids are not hard workers. Showmom seems to have great hard working kid.
Cloverbarley- Do you have your own farm where your DD takes care of all of her own horses? This unfortunately is not the norm for most kids in the US. Also, I am mainly referring to how a person gets the riding time to BECOME "the best man for the job". Goodness I would love it if I had enough natural talent to not have to have paid/bartered for "formal" lessons, or rides on horses. Im glad you do have the positive mindset to give a relative unknown a chance! That really is all a lot of people are asking for.
imapepper- "And you can give me stories about BNT/BNR who made it that were not mega rich.....but they had family support and were reasonably well off enough to get the mileage they needed to be sucessful."
YOU SAID IT!! Do I hate my parents? No. Would it have been beneficial to my career if they had more money, or spent it on my riding instead of sending me to an all girls private school? Perhaps. But I didnt have any say in that (believe me, I let them know what I thought about it LOL).


The fact of the matter stems from the fact that most trainers are NOT wealthy, and pretty much live paycheck to paycheck. As someone mentioned, in this country, this industry is a service industry. Most trainer's #1 priority is to KEEP THE CUSTOMER HAPPY. What do customers want?
They want a pretty pony that wins ribbons, never stops, never goes lame, and never tries to buck them off. Customers want to feel special "Yay, the trainer asked me to help ride one of their horses, and not just everyone gets to ride the trainer's horse". I could go on and on and on. Ive been on both sides of the fence...hell you could say Ive even been the freaking filler and ground line! It is a HUGE risk for a trainer with customers to take on an unknown person, especially the "kid who was hanging out watching horses in the schooling ring". It is much less of a risk to just get the already eager paying customer to ride an extra horse or two.

[Cloverbarley]

You know HSA; it's payback time for me. I was given breaks and help as a child so all I'm doing is feeding back into the system. I personally wouldn't teach someone with no natural talent (I do not charge for lessons) but if I can see something in a person, whether that be drive, enthusiasm combined with a good sense of what it is all about, then yes I encourage them as much as I can with the help of my time and my horses.

Yes I have a farm so it is easy for me in that I do not have to drive my DD anywhere to do her horses, however the point the other poster made was not the getting the DD to and from the barn, it was the fact that her DD can't always do her horse because she has a monstrous amount of homework, just like every other kid around, including mine who does her homework and tends to her horses every day. I actually think it is quite relevant to the differences in cultures being discussed here. My culture is to give the child a good diverse education, including self discipline and responsibility and a good work ethic for the whole of life and not just academically. Yes school work is important .. but so are many other things out there. :)

[mvp]

No one wants to think that the world isn't a meritocracy.

That's true for the young'uns hoping to learn to ride well with no $$, but who get understandably burned out when the discover it's not true

That's Strassburger, who ought to remove his head from some orifice rather than blaming 20 year olds.

That's the mom of DD who got the ride as opposed to some other imagined kid.

The point of the other posters was good, if subtle: We don't know if DD or the other barn rat kid was the better man for the job. But in the full service barn, the talented but broke kid doesn't get the saddle time, the rides or the attention it would take to make her the better rider in the first place.

So long as it's true (or most families believe it's true) that you can't get somewhere in this sport without an enormous financial investment before the kid's 18th birthday, the sport will suffer.

As to the trainers who point out the problem with letting the kids learn. Why not let 'em sink or swim a bit?

Lend the body clippers with the understanding that they pay for what they break. Let them clip the unruly horse and figure it out. Or figure out how to use Ace. Or go to the show with their own horse unclipped.

People have a right to make decisions. They have the right to make mistakes. They also have the right to lie in the bed they make for themselves.

[Mac123]

Well, I guess my program falls into your "big show barn" category as I offer all those services and make a living doing so. However, I don't "have a vested interest" in keeping my clients from becomming independent horsemen. Just yesterday, we had a lovely puncture wound on a pony and I took the time to grab every kid in the barn to discuss the injury and it's treatment. All the kids gathered round and got a little "horsemanship nugget" that I hope they'll be able to use one day.

But here's the deal with the services. Take clipping for example: I charge a very modest rate to clip the horses. Could my students learn to do it? Of course and I'm happy to teach them. However, here's the reality. (Iactually have had all these scenarios happen):
1. Student uses my clippers to clip their horse to save money on the service. At best, the blades get dull and I have to sharpen. At worse, they break my clippers and don't fess up and I'm stuck with the repair.
2. Student (or parent) informs me that they don't want to have that charge and will clip themselves. We're packing up to leave for a show and it's not done. I end up having to do it at the last minute when we all have other things to do. I fuss at student and I wind up being the bad guy.
3. Student tries to clip horse and has trouble. Horse becomes unruly and downright dangerous and we have to put ourselves at risk to retrain it.

So, it's really just more professional to do it myself.

The way I look at it is this: I really, really want my students to learn to ride and become horsemen. I do my very best to teach them. Some will learn, some won't. I have a few students that I'm really proud of and they are WORKERS. I've given plenty to those workers who need a helping hand. I've taught lessons and coached for free. But folks, I don't think the problem lies with trainers not giving enough for free. Back to the original point of this thread- the U.S. Riding Culture. We are a service oriented country. The trainers are providing services that the clients want. I'd love it if I could make a decent living just training and not running a barn, but that's not gonna happen. My clients don't have the time to do-it-themselves.

See, the way I see it in your clipping example is that you, the pro, should set the standard for what is expected. And that's just the way it is. You're the pro, you are god. You SHOULD be the "bad guy" if you need to be and there's nothing wrong with that.

Step One: The Policy. So your policy states "Unless extenuating circumstances prevent the student from doing so and such circumstances are discussed and approved with Jsalem prior to the show, students are responsible for clipping their horses before the show. Any horse that is not clipped the day before their classes may not show." OR, to rephrase the last part, "...any horse that is not clipped the day before their classes will be clipped by Jsalem and will be charged double the normal clipping rate."

Step Two: The Interview. When a new client is accepted and you are going over your policies, you ask them "Do you know how to clip?" and "Is your horse good for clipping?" If the answer is no to the former, you set them up for a clinic or for lessons. If the answer is no to the latter, then you have them pay for the service while you fix the horse and then you give it back to them.

Step Two: The Clipper Rental or the By Your Own Blades. "Students who do not own their own clippers may rent Jsalem's clippers for $xx per use." OR "Students who do not own their own clippers may rent Jsalem's clippers for $x and supply their own clipper blades to fit *make, model, type of clippers*. Or, "Anyone who wishes to use Jsalem's clippers may pay a one time fee of $xxx which covers clipper use for the entire year." Which, of course, funds your new pair of clippers every year!

Step Three: The Clipping Clinic. Students are required to take the "Horseshow Grooming Clinic" or the "Clipping Clinic" before they are approved to show, where you teach them how to clip. Or, you take half a lesson to teach them and let them practice.

See, in my opinion, your response is not "professional," it is the easier option. If you set a policy and enforce it, you breed responsibility in your riders. Honestly, who doesn't have the 10 minutes it takes to zoom some clippers over a muzzle, goat hair, and coronets? And if they really don't, fine, do it and charge for it, but don't just eliminate that step in their horsemanship and responsibilty because its easier.

If we always accomodate and cater to the lowest end of the spectrum, why are we surprised that that's what we turn out? We set the standard HIGH. We HELP them achieve it. And we develop horsemen.

Listen, you all talked for 6 pages about how what America is turning out isn't what we want to see. You outlined all these symptoms of problems. You say that the PROBLEM is that America is service oriented and then you offer those services. How are you to expect that things will change? And further, most pros cater to those problems, they perpetuate the very things they want to see change. Well wishing and praying and posting online isn't going to do a damn thing. Pros, step up and set a standard!!! And here's a secret. 1/2 the time the parents don't know that things aren't done that way in every other barn!!! If that's simply what's expected, especially when paren'ts hear about breeding responsibility and integrity in their kids, I think you'd be surprised at how many are on board. And if they're not, make the decision for yourself about whether to offer full care or whether you even want a selfish, unmotivated rider who isn't interested in being a horseman in your program.

I don't mean to pick just on Jsalem...it's just that its a perfect example of how things work today.

Pick a side, guys. Accept how it is and stop complaining or start helping things change.

[Peggy]

It would have been waaay easier to poultice and wrap a horse's foot myself last week, than to guide and supervise the junior who did it. But she wanted to learn, and I figure that it's part of my responsibility as the older generation who did it all :lol: to pass info on to the younger generation(s), assuming I've got the time. And now she's done it once. And, no I am not the trainer or even a paid employee.

BTW, neither this kid nor the other one at the barn who get a lot of the rides are the wealthier kids. In fact, one can't afford training and is kind of a working student as she works off lessons by doing a variety of tasks. But they do ride well.

[magnolia73]

I think a neat thing would be a return to ground lessons. When I started riding, the group lesson was an hour, with a half hour ground lesson. You started with tacking up and went from there. Over time, they became less frequent, but always useful. And this was a sketchy lesson barn. One of the neatest things was an adult horse camp I did- the best part was a discussion on conformation- it was fascinating.

I just don't see why it can't be a part of lesson programs. I know a lady who does lessons in my area- she has no trouble getting people to pay extra money to take unmounted lessons.

Honestly- the kids with no curiosity- who find the ground lesson on shoeing BORing.... they won't be riding at age 20 and won't have the passion to be pros. But who knows, maybe there are a few kids who'd gladly come on a Saturday morning and exchange a few hours of work or even pay for a well organized ground lesson, even taught by an ammy or groom.

LOL, I wish I hadn't just left my old barn- I'd offer to do some ground lessons for the kids. Now I board with 20/30 somethings. LOL, we never grew out of our horse crazy....and could probably talk about boots, wormer, training, vaccines, course design, gymnastics, conformation all day long like nerds.

[Jsalem]

No offense taken, but I don't see a problem with providing a service (like clipping) for a fee. I only bemoan the lack of horsemanship when folks complain about the costs and aren't willing to do the work.

Any client that comes to me with ambitions and goals and a lack of cash- I'm happy to show them the way. What I've found is that kids these days just don't have the time. For example- The kid that wants to have the opportunity to ride extra horses. We hear that on these Boards all the time. You know what? Sometimes I ask a kid, "Do you have time to hack another one?" Many times I get, "Sorry, I have too much homework." Or, "Who do you want me to ride? Oh, I don't like that one." That kid doesn't get asked again. I need someone who is available when I need them, not when it's convenient to the student. That student is the type that ends up paying for services like clipping and braiding and daycare, etc.

[DMK]

Things i did as a youngster: Sucky clip jobs, ruined (my) equipment through carelessness like clipping dirty horses or not cleaning clippers, half-assed clip jobs because i didn't get my act together in time for a show (and i was in the breed world with grooming classes where the perfection of the clip job was kind of important) and i'm fairly certain i had some less than perfected horse handling techniques as well.

Things I do today: turn out well groomed horses who are trained to be groomed/clipped without need of tranq and rarely need restraint.

We mostly learn through our failures, and I think the nature of a lot of things these days (this is by no means limited to any one trainer, show barns or the horse world in general) is to try and control the failure process. Not that a trainer should give kids her expensive equipment and let them have at it, but if they want to do it, accept they aren't going to do it well the first couple of times. equipment will suffer, horses will be humiliated, clipper blades WILL be harmed. ;)

[Mac123]

No offense taken, but I don't see a problem with providing a service (like clipping) for a fee. I only bemoan the lack of horsemanship when folks complain about the costs and aren't willing to do the work.

Jsalem, it's not that I have a problem with offering services, because let's face it, there are legitimate times and places where those services are needed. And I am the first to advocate charging clients for clipping, wrapping, etc. because of how much time it truly does take.

Having said that, I DO have a problem with it when paying for the service is what is presented as normal.

For example, saying "this is how we do things and this is what is expected of you, but if you get in a bind we can provide the services you need them" is different than having the services be normal.

Out of say ten students, the first approach will produce 8 that do it themselves and 2 that pay for it while the second approach will produce 2 that do it themselves and 8 that pay for it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that paying for services should be a last resort. We all have those wealthly clients who just can't be bothered, fine. But why not have that be the exception and not the rule?

Not only does it breed responsibilty, I, for one, would rather make the money teaching or riding - and I'd rather the client be able to take all the money they spend on "extras" and apply it to more lessons or training.

Magnolia - I don't know why ground lessons/classroom lessons aren't REQUIRED at riding academies. I know if I ever have my own barn, I will have a classroom, and it will be used. And all those lessons like clipping and bandaging and poulticing and conformation and course design etc. etc. etc. will be taught for the kids to be truly well rounded.

[Wanderluster]

Yes!

We had a summer camp this summer. It was staffed by my very competent assistant trainer (who is a mother), along with 1 very competent 16 year old and several 14 year olds. This was for 8 kids.

I got a phone call one afternoon after camp by a very upset parent. She was horrified that her 7 year old daughter got in the car after camp and cried because she was hot and thirsty. Mother had forgotten to pack child's swim suit, so child wasn't participating in the "slip and slide" end of camp activity- she was just watching. Said child "wasn't comfortable" asking a counselor for water and "wasn't comfortable" walking 20 feet to the air conditioned lounge. She blamed us for not reminding the child to drink and mom wasn't comfortable leaving the child in our care for the rest of camp. I cheerfully refunded her money. Lord have mercy....

We have generations of these coddled/overprotected children to look forward to. It is widely practiced as parenting seems more focused on feelings and less on future social/survivor skills. Great lesson MOM, when your kid is hot and needs some water - sit in the corner and mope, this is a great lesson in assertiveness and RESPONSIBILITY- who should have made sure that HER swimsuit was packed?
My parents knew these were teachable moments and had us pack our suitcases for water skiing and snow skiing vacations. Guess what? One time my sister had to wear shorts at the lake because she forgot to pack her swim suit. They seemed to understand that as parents their job was to prepare us for the big world and a little toughness would be a very useful skill.
The best college degree to get for the future professional horseman is psychology.... you'll need your training to deal with the craziness this business will deal you. I am serious I know at least 3 pros with that background in education and it may be the most useful on a daily basis. :D
Watch some of the shetland races in Europe... little kids being encouraged to ride to win.

[Serah]

The best college degree to get for the future professional horseman is psychology.... you'll need your training to deal with the craziness this business will deal you. I am serious I know at least 3 pros with that background in education and it may be the most useful on a daily basis. :D


HAHAHA I have a degree in Psych and am a professional and I find myself constantly thinking... "if i had wanted to be a shrink, I would have been a shrink!! But NOOOOO I wanted to work with horses!!!"

But thats just it, I became a professional to work with horses... and while I admit to having fallen in love with teaching and watching my students progress, it definitely has sidelined my personal goals... But then again, the only way I can afford to compete my own horses is if I take customers to the horse shows.... the vicious cycle continues....

[PonyPenny]

Since I am from the do it yourself generation like Peggy, I have taught my daughter to do just about every horse chore there is. Her trainers never wanted to take the interest in teaching the juniors basic horsemanship. It is just easier for them to have the grooms do it.

My daughter is one of the rare juniors here in California that does her own grooming at horse shows, including "A" rated shows. When she was real young, I would help her set up the stall and lunge the pony. Now that she is 15, my job is to haul the horse to the shows, help off load the tack trunk, shavings and hay (they are too heavy for one person) and pay the entries. She does everything else.

I have received grief from trainers that we do it ourself. In many barns, it is a mandatory service at both home and shows. I can understand if the turn out was sub par, but the horse is always turned out properly. My daughter would not be able to show if we paid for groom service.

So even if juniors want to learn, they are not allowed. It is easier and more profitable to have groom do it and charge the client.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

Jsalem, it's not that I have a problem with offering services, because let's face it, there are legitimate times and places where those services are needed. And I am the first to advocate charging clients for clipping, wrapping, etc. because of how much time it truly does take.

Having said that, I DO have a problem with it when paying for the service is what is presented as normal.

For example, saying "this is how we do things and this is what is expected of you, but if you get in a bind we can provide the services you need them" is different than having the services be normal.

Out of say ten students, the first approach will produce 8 that do it themselves and 2 that pay for it while the second approach will produce 2 that do it themselves and 8 that pay for it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that paying for services should be a last resort. We all have those wealthly clients who just can't be bothered, fine. But why not have that be the exception and not the rule?

Not only does it breed responsibilty, I, for one, would rather make the money teaching or riding - and I'd rather the client be able to take all the money they spend on "extras" and apply it to more lessons or training.

Magnolia - I don't know why ground lessons/classroom lessons aren't REQUIRED at riding academies. I know if I ever have my own barn, I will have a classroom, and it will be used. And all those lessons like clipping and bandaging and poulticing and conformation and course design etc. etc. etc. will be taught for the kids to be truly well rounded.

This is what I'm talking about. It seems like more and more business plans are being set up around what they can charge clients for. Specifically, what they can make mandatory and charge clients for. IE, clipping, braiding, etc.- skills that can easily be acquired, but can also easily be billed for.

The problem I have with this arrangement isn't necessarily that kids aren't learning these skills (although I confess that this is an issue, the truth of the matter is, there are many variables at work here), but that oftentimes, the business is set up so that the actual person doing the work is grossly underpaid and has no idea how much money they could be making performing the same work independently.

For example, barns that pay their grooms $8/hour, then have them perform tasks like body clipping. The groom made $16 clipping the horse (hourly wage), yet the barn charged $150 for it. While I understand the overhead associated with clipping (I also clip for my barn in the winter, and maintain my own clippers), something doesn't sit right with me for a barn to make $134 while Gary the Groom makes next to nothing doing pretty labor-intensive work.

Again, it makes perfect sense to offer services to clients who, for whatever reason, can't/won't do it themselves. And it makes perfect sense to be compensated for these services. But too often, these paid services are required of clients, not optional, and that arrangement pretty much guarantees that kids aren't learning how to do things themselves (see my previous reference to braiding).

[Jsalem]

One thing about this business that is really tough- the only thing I get paid to do in everyone's scenario here is teaching or riding. Those hours that I actually spend in the ring. For those of you that aren't actually professionals: Do you have any idea the number of hours that a professional spends out of that ring for the benefit of the clients that would not be contributing to his/her salary? There is no money to be made in boarding. The "business model" that charges for grooming services, etc, is the only intelligent way to make a decent living in this business. Why in the world would I run a big barn and work hours and hours unpaid? For every educated, responsible client that can be available to handle their horse's every emergency and that can clip, handle blanket cleaning, meet the farrier, etc. there are 25 that won't even pick up the poop behind their horse. There are 25 children that are too young and inexperienced to really handle their pony and that leave a trail of water bottles and saddle pads in the hall. Without the leadership that I provide, the barn would be chaos- like so many boarding barns that you hear so many complaints about.

My barn wouldn't look like it does, nor would it run like it does if all I did was show up to give formal lessons. In the scenario that so many are suggesting, I guess I should be available at all times to give horsemanship lessons for free.

I don't "require" that my clients use the grooming services. I have ship in clients that care for their own horses at shows. But the reality is that the parents of 10 year old kids really can't clip their own horses. It's all they can do to round up the family and get to the show on time- much less get there early to feed, hand walk in the ring, lunge, whatever. Those folks love having grooming and daycare services. I provide it and make a small profit off of it. And no, I don't pay my grooms $8 per hour and charge $150. I encourage my grooms to go to my off site clients on their own time and keep the entire amount. They can even use my equipment. If they do the bodyclipping overtime, they get a huge bonus.

In a perfect world, every owner would keep their horses at home and do their own care. That's not gonna happen. MOST owners in the US today would not make that sacrifice. So they pay for services.

[SaddleFitterVA]

As I have no idea how to "fix" a system that I can barely afford to participate in, even now, as a married, high earner, I will leave that alone.

What I don't see is how the "hunter" path, subjective contest of which horse can lope around, and still have the most fantastic jump, does a single thing for the future of Americans in international competitions.

I am not insulting hunters, but do not see a correlation between what hunter barns turn out for top rated shows, and what is seen at international competition (eventing, dressage or jumpers). The way of going is seriously different. Jumpers is obviously the closest, but you can sometimes see how an awesome jumper could cross over into dressage, or vice versa. Hunters though? I need to watch more of them, because what I see is not developing riders to do the jumpers or dressage.

I also don't know that clipping and other side discussions of the hunter barn business model have anything to do with it either. Every once in a while a hunter will cross over, or a jumper trainer will go back, but as evidenced by the rule book, it is a different discipline. You may as well grab the saddlebreds or Morgans and compare those programs and lament our lack of international competitiveness. Hunters fits quite nicely into the schedule of what most Americans want for their kids. We still turn out some top caliber riders, and yes, sacrifice, talent AND luck is part of the equation...and finances.

Do the Europeans have all those huge breed shows we have? Think of all the people who participate in horses, spending vast amounts of money on the other disciplines. Can a European spend his entire show year at breed shows? With watered down versions of the Olympic disciplines? If so, how many of them are doing that?

Is part of the reason we have so many different breed shows and non-Olympic sport disciplines because everyone wants a winner?

[magnolia73]

JSalem,
Lets say I moved to your barn and said, hey, I clip and braid. Then my clip job was a bit messy and I did say, button braids or braided kind of badly. I'd stick out like a sore thumb, even in a 2'6 adult division. How would you handle that? Once you get to a certain level- pretty low actually, there is a pretty high standard of turnout that takes some time to perfect. Back in the day, even at a C show "kid" done braids were no biggie.

And too an extent- do you want a bandage bow on a $100,000 lease pony?

Which is my next point- my first horse was a $75 pony. Banging her tail and cutting her mane- meh- whatever. I imagine if first pony was a pricey lease... things change.

There is a learning curve- wrapping, braiding and clipping take a lot of practice to get right. Wrapping legs is easy to practice, as is braiding, but pulling manes and clipping with one horse- can take a while to perfect.

I have spent a lot of time scribing at events, and you see some bad braiding from kids on ponies. They try- they clearly put in the effort, but the results are not professional. Then you see the older kids and the braids and turnout are better. They do progress and get better. Are you willing to send a kid to your ring looking a little messy? OTOH, I'm sitting there- wow, that looks bad then I think how hard the kid worked and feel kind of bad.

[englishivy]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

Until the client changes what they want from programs, and (with Jsalem's post in mind), are willing to learn & do services up to the standards of their trainer, our system isn't going to change.

Mac: you suggest we trim the fat and make our clients step up to the challange. But what if our clients, who are our income, don't want to learn and aren't willing to change? If we make this 180 and ask more from them, perhaps they will move to Trainer Jane down the street who does all those services...and without the double charge or the lectures.

What you are calling "required" I think most call convenient.

So most trainers aren't going to change their program; why fix what isn't broken? They say: "I make my money, clients are happy...what's the problem?" The few who try to change (or already run their programs as such) are stuck making less money which means they cannot campaign & promote themselves as well, and thus appeal to the lower income clients (who can't pay for all those "convenient" services), and the cycle continues. :sigh:

My only thought on encouraging horsemanship across the board is if the bigeq or major finals had a horsemanship portion to their testing. That way all trainers, big and little, would be teaching it again. And more importantly, clients would want to learn it again.

[mvp]

It's a question of long term versus short term goals.

I agree that many trainers don't radically change their business plan because it is "working"-- even if they don't get to develop as riders. They are, at least, paying the bills.

I also think we have set up a tiered industry where it is very, very hard to move up. If you set up a barn that's not full service, you attract a group of people who can't or won't spend the same kind of money on everything else-- more expensive horses, weeks away at shows. Then you don't get known as someone who could compete at those higher levels, and you stay in your small pond.

With the pressure to just stay in business being what it is, I see how things keep ticking along as they are.

But the trainers ought to be more up front. The truth emerges: Full service barns aren't only a way to take up the slack for lazy, busy or incompetent owners, they also put money in the trainer's pocket. As another poster pointed out, they often do that by paying grooms less than they charge for the service. Why would the trainer teach grooming skills? In fact, she might do better to let her groom teach the course.

[Mac123]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

Until the client changes what they want from programs, and (with Jsalem's post in mind), are willing to learn & do services up to the standards of their trainer, our system isn't going to change.

Mac: you suggest we trim the fat and make our clients step up to the challange. But what if our clients, who are our income, don't want to learn and aren't willing to change? If we make this 180 and ask more from them, perhaps they will move to Trainer Jane down the street who does all those services...and without the double charge or the lectures.

What you are calling "required" I think most call convenient.

So most trainers aren't going to change their program; why fix what isn't broken? They say: "I make my money, clients are happy...what's the problem?" The few who try to change (or already run their programs as such) are stuck making less money which means they cannot campaign & promote themselves as well, and thus appeal to the lower income clients (who can't pay for all those "convenient" services), and the cycle continues. :sigh:

My only thought on encouraging horsemanship across the board is if the bigeq or major finals had a horsemanship portion to their testing. That way all trainers, big and little, would be teaching it again. And more importantly, clients would want to learn it again.

What I'm saying is that everyone agrees the system is broken and isn't turning out horsemen. But no one will take a risk, and yes, there are risks involved, and begin to change things.

If everyone sits here and complains and does nothing, what's the point.

What I'm tired of is innactivity.

I'm not saying to 180 your program overnight. But for goodness sake, there should be SOMETHING pros can begin doing to encourage better riders and better horsemen.

I firmly believe that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Listen if you guys like your system and don't want to change it, than don't. But please, please, stop whining about the lack of horsemanship in America or the crossrail classes or the 20 somethings or everything else in this thread. Because your system is what produces the things you don't like - and then you're not willing to change. THAT's my point.

It's not an either or. It's not Keep the business the same and stay in business or help horsemanship and have everyone leave. Doesn't anyone have any creativity anymore?

[ynl063w]

What I don't see is how the "hunter" path, subjective contest of which horse can lope around, and still have the most fantastic jump, does a single thing for the future of Americans in international competitions.

I am not insulting hunters, but do not see a correlation between what hunter barns turn out for top rated shows, and what is seen at international competition (eventing, dressage or jumpers). The way of going is seriously different. Jumpers is obviously the closest, but you can sometimes see how an awesome jumper could cross over into dressage, or vice versa. Hunters though? I need to watch more of them, because what I see is not developing riders to do the jumpers or dressage.

You don't see a correlation between what hunter barns turn out for top rated shows and what is seen at international competitions because hunters aren't included in international competitions. Hunter riders really aren't interested in international competitions. The same goes for western competitions. You won't see anything there that resembles what you see at international jumping or dressage competitions. Western competitions don't do a single thing for the future of Americans in international competitions. The way of going is completely different, and there is no interest in developing horses or riders to do jumpers or dressage. I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting that unless someone sets a goal of riding internationally in jumpers or dressage, he or she shouldn't bother riding at all?

[Elghund2]

I think what SaddleFitterVA is saying is that the bulk of English Competition in the US is the hunters and it does not prep someone or horse for doing jumpers, eventing or dressage. Given that we are siphoning riders and horses away from the international disciplines into the hunters we are drawing on a pool of talent that has been depleted.

She can correct me if I've misinterpreted.

[mvp]

I agree with Mac123. Everyone needs to put their money where their mouth is.

As a good ammy who can care for her own (body clipping, IV injections and all), I vote with my feet and my wallet by doing those services myself. The money I save, I'll happily put into lessons, entry fees, etc.. That means people like me will (and ought to) do business with barns that encourage our level of involvement with our horses. Every time I spend my money on a full-service barn because I'm too busy or tired to wrap legs, cold hose, whatever, I am encouraging the full service barn system I don't like. So I make the time.

But trainers also need to lay down the law with clients. You care for your horse properly or you don't ride. Or you don't care for your horse, break him faster and buy a new one sooner. It's really that simple, and the owner's call to make. This was presented to me as the "package deal" of this sport. If I didn't like it, I could choose a different one, but no one, then or now, could make the obligation to condition and care for a horse go away.

Not making money? Change your pricing structure. My trainer gets $45 for a 1/2 hour private lesson. I don't make $90 an hour. So I have a hard time believing trainers can't make their money by training and must resort to charging clients (while blaming them, too!) and skimming money off of an underpaid groom.

Sorry to be blunt, but let's call a spade a spade, decide if we want to lie in the bed we all (owners and trainers) made for ourselves, and make some sacrifices to change it.

[mvp]

Back to another point in Stassburger's e-mail: Lack of check-writing owners.

I feel really out of touch with the tippy top of my sport. What happens at the Olympic level, or even for 10 weeks each winter in Florida, or the Big Eq seems other worldly to me. I also don't get the sense that the H/J industry at large is interested in it's grass roots base. For all these reasons, I can't see contributing financially to success for a few at the top. I just don't see enough trickle down to make that seem like a good use of my money.

Perhaps others in the US feel similarly alienated in a way that they don't in Europe?

[CBoylen]

I think what SaddleFitterVA is saying is that the bulk of English Competition in the US is the hunters and it does not prep someone or horse for doing jumpers, eventing or dressage. Given that we are siphoning riders and horses away from the international disciplines into the hunters we are drawing on a pool of talent that has been depleted.

She can correct me if I've misinterpreted.


I don't think that is true at all. The vast majority of juniors do both hunters and jumpers. Most professionals also do both. Yes, some people reach a point where they decide they enjoy or are more successful at one or the other, but most continue to do both as time and opportunity allow. Most horses end up doing whatever they are best at. So I don't see the hunter ring drawing any talent, human or equine, away to the detriment of the jumpers.
If you had said money, then I would agree with you ;).

[GreenMachine]

Not making money? Change your pricing structure. My trainer gets $45 for a 1/2 hour private lesson. I don't make $90 an hour.

I'm just guessing here, but you also probably don't have a large facility to pay a mortgage and taxes, maintain, insure, staff, equip, etc.... If you think that the hourly wage for a trainer goes only into his/her pocket, you might want to try running your own barn some day.

[mvp]

I'm just guessing here, but you also probably don't have a large facility to pay a mortgage and taxes, maintain, insure, staff, equip, etc.... If you think that the hourly wage for a trainer goes only into his/her pocket, you might want to try running your own barn some day.

Thanks for the advice. I have, in fact, run a small training business and the boarding side of it. I also costed everything out in order to do most trainers do (or perhaps ought to)--make the boarding side of things pay for most of the facility. Again, if they are not, then they need to modify their price structure.

If the trainer owns the farm (and not all do), then part of the mortgage should be paid by the training side of the business, and even the trainer's salary. After all, the farm is a real estate investment. Yes, the trainer must maintain the facility in order to make a living, but the trainer also profits when he or she sells upon retirement, too.

My mortgage comes out of my salary, so at least part of the farm's mortgage ought to come out of the trainer's salary, too.

I also agree with CBoylen and others who have pointed out that Americans interested in spending money on horses seem to have opportunities to do that which don't siphon money or interest into disciplines with international competitions.

[GreenMachine]

Point taken, but I would argue that the incidentals of running show facility are more costly than your average boarding barn. Additionally, in highly competitive areas, barns are largely price takers when it comes to board prices, which is why so many barn owners post on here that they can only break even on board...especially if they own the property. And any capital gains made on the investment in the land won't be realized until the land is sold, which means the owner doesn't see that money until after he's out of business. So that's a non-issue while the business is running.

I suppose in the long run, I don't see why, as an ammy who works for a living and rides for fun, it's my fault that the U.S. doesn't win Olympic medals (though I could have sworn we just did) because I use a full service barn. I don't see why it's my trainer's fault because he's willing to provide a service that I'm willing to pay for. Do I do a lot of things on my own and teach interested pony kids how to do them? Sure, but not because I care about developing the next Olympians. That's not my responsibility.

The USET needs to figure out how to work within or around the full service culture (if that's truly the only reason why the U.S. isn't winning medals...except when it does), because as long as there are people willing to pay for it, it's not going away.

[magnolia73]

I think most people start in hunters who go on to jump. It is the very lowest level of riding- hunter crossrails, crossrail eq. It is good to have people learn the basics of an even pace, good turns, neat riding before playing with speed. At the lowest levels- 3' and below, hunters are about getting basics right- a consistent pace, finding spots, lead changes, nice turns. They are the basics you build on. I imagine once you get to the level (outside of ponies) where brilliant form is needed, you have just as many doing jumpers. It's almost more about basic jumping skills than show hunters at the earliest levels.

I guess what is happening is not that hunters are bad, but the qualiity of instruction at the lowest levels can be pretty lacking, which means an auto pilot horse is required because the instructor has no skills to train the horse or teach the kid, or the student is not patient enough to develop a horse and wants the instant gratification of showing.

It all falls on hunters sucking- but not because the practice of finding 8 jumps perfectly is wrong- its because everyone starts in a lesson program at a hunter barn, and many get bad instruction. It would be neat if the international disciplines of dressage, eventing and showjumping had more entry level opportunities to their sport. But when was the last time you saw an event barn with 20 schoolies or a dressage barn with longe line lessons to get kids started right?

[hoonsle]

One thing about this business that is really tough- the only thing I get paid to do in everyone's scenario here is teaching or riding. Those hours that I actually spend in the ring. For those of you that aren't actually professionals: Do you have any idea the number of hours that a professional spends out of that ring for the benefit of the clients that would not be contributing to his/her salary? There is no money to be made in boarding. The "business model" that charges for grooming services, etc, is the only intelligent way to make a decent living in this business. Why in the world would I run a big barn and work hours and hours unpaid? For every educated, responsible client that can be available to handle their horse's every emergency and that can clip, handle blanket cleaning, meet the farrier, etc. there are 25 that won't even pick up the poop behind their horse. There are 25 children that are too young and inexperienced to really handle their pony and that leave a trail of water bottles and saddle pads in the hall. Without the leadership that I provide, the barn would be chaos- like so many boarding barns that you hear so many complaints about.

My barn wouldn't look like it does, nor would it run like it does if all I did was show up to give formal lessons. In the scenario that so many are suggesting, I guess I should be available at all times to give horsemanship lessons for free.

I don't "require" that my clients use the grooming services. I have ship in clients that care for their own horses at shows. But the reality is that the parents of 10 year old kids really can't clip their own horses. It's all they can do to round up the family and get to the show on time- much less get there early to feed, hand walk in the ring, lunge, whatever. Those folks love having grooming and daycare services. I provide it and make a small profit off of it. And no, I don't pay my grooms $8 per hour and charge $150. I encourage my grooms to go to my off site clients on their own time and keep the entire amount. They can even use my equipment. If they do the bodyclipping overtime, they get a huge bonus.

In a perfect world, every owner would keep their horses at home and do their own care. That's not gonna happen. MOST owners in the US today would not make that sacrifice. So they pay for services.

Jsalem, I think what people are suggesting is that you encourage the opportunity to learn by letting clients do things for themselves when motivated. If you are aspiring to become a BNT, then you are probably not going to accept the mediocrity that comes with the learning curve. Is it more important for your program to look polished and top notch, or for your eager students to learn by doing? I think that's a bigger issue for many trainers than the finances.

I disagree with your point that the "business model that charges for grooming, etc." is the only way to make money in this business. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't get paid for grooming. I'm suggesting that most trainers don't make their income from body clipping, lessons, and boarding. The income comes from horse sales and show fees. And yes, in any sales business, you spend lots of time not getting paid. You even work hard for some low level clients and never get paid. But. . .when you make a big sale, it compensates for all the other periods of low income or no income. That's just sales. Yes, you need to be able to cover your overhead. But nickel and diming your clients with a laundry list of extras isn't going to pay the rent. Filling EVERY stall with a full paying boarder should. And if it doesn't, then the board is too low.

[hype]

We are not going to produce the best riders in the world until the best athletes and riders have a level ground to compete. Doesn't matter how good you are if you are not appropriately mounted. How much do you think a junior jumper costs at this point in time? What about the cost to campaign him at the highest levels to get that experience to take you to the international level?

It is really tough to do that if you are not a trainer's kid (and even then it is costing the family a pretty penny) or have a trust fund. This sport has become a bidding war.

Many kids (not all) don't care about their horses except that they win them ribbons. They are a "thing" and have no interest in developing a relationship with them.

They'd rather not be at the barn hanging out all day. It isn't that they really have that much else to do but when the groom puts the horse away and cleans the tack there is not much else to do. I don't remember grooms doing EVERYTHING back in the day.

Some of it you can blame on the kids and their hectic lifestyle but I know that there are plenty of kids who given a chance would spend 12 hours a day at the barn working. It gets discouraging for these kids to not have the money to show when they are working their butts off at the barn day in and day out. Then add to that frustration when little Suzy's mom drops 200K on a Junior Hunter. This is the same Suzy that wouldn't know a bar shoe from a regular shoe because she's never picked out a horse's hoof before and couldn't find a distance by herself to save her life. She'll end up high in the zone points because she's going to show 30 plus weeks a year and those shows will be hand picked by her trainer to minimize competition so that she can accumulate points.

This is what our horse shows have become on many levels and we're asking why we aren't putting up top notch international riders?

We're missing out on a lot of riders who could be really good because the sport has gotten completely out of hand, driven by the instant gratification society in which we live. Used to be that in order to go to a rated show you had to show 3'6" on a horse or have a rated pony. Well the parents decided that they didn't want to wait that long, now they've dumbed it down so much that they are offering walk trot at WEF.

[SaddleFitterVA]

You don't see a correlation between what hunter barns turn out for top rated shows and what is seen at international competitions because hunters aren't included in international competitions. Hunter riders really aren't interested in international competitions. The same goes for western competitions. You won't see anything there that resembles what you see at international jumping or dressage competitions. Western competitions don't do a single thing for the future of Americans in international competitions. The way of going is completely different, and there is no interest in developing horses or riders to do jumpers or dressage. I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting that unless someone sets a goal of riding internationally in jumpers or dressage, he or she shouldn't bother riding at all?

Elghund understood the point.

There is pool of people who will be interested in riding, in the US, we siphon mass amounts of those people into non Olympic disciplines, which have shows, awards, etc. Hunters is the closest to the Olympic disciplines, but that reduces the pool of potential talent when they do compete in Hunters as the end-goal.

I would never make any suggestion that would say someone should not bother riding if he/she does not have competition goals. That was your statement. If there were no horse shows, I would still own and ride horses. I ride because I love to ride. I love horses. I mostly enjoy taking care of them, I enjoy learning how to train them, and I do that for my own pleasure. I don't do it for a scrap of ribbon, although I do sometimes go to shows and have fun there too.

But, the expensive competitions which lull riders into thinking they are all that and a bag of chips because they have come through the Hunter Show Barn business model might just be reducing the competition because everyone wants a ribbon, and instead of having to work harder, learn to jump higher, ride better, the shows and trainers are catering to the quest for a ribbon.

You don't have to ride well to compete. You don't have to compete to ride well. They are not mutually exclusive. You don't even have to ride well to win sometimes. You probably won't win all the time without some skills, but if you show up enough, you'll end up with a ribbon or two.

The level of dedication to a single obsession to get to the top is what is needed. Those who have it, might get there. But it is a "might". Because for every Beezie there are probably hundreds of riders who did not make it. Just like there are thousands of bike racers who will never be a Lance Armstrong.

If you are exceptionally talented, you might get sponsorship from a wealthy benefactor who wants to own international caliber horses. But, with that sort of sponsorship comes risks. In many cases it works beautifully. But, you are tying yourself to a single, wealthy benefactor, whose whims might change. And, what that blog pointed out is quite true. There are not many benefactors like that.

Since many people are risk averse, they don't encourage their children to pursue a career in a field that has low likelihood of success, in the money making definition of success. A parent who has a talented junior rider...what is his perspective of the show world in the USA? It is an entertainment/service industry with the trainers being the performers. It is not popular in the mainstream, so even if your child becomes a gold medal winner, in the USA, she will still be an unknown. No Anky.

[magnolia73]

And honestly- the Olympic disciplines- particularly eventing offer little pay off for the risk. Look at team penning, barrel racing etc- big money to go fast around barrels and herd cows. Quarter Horse people win scads of fabulous prizes and money. Then you win an event that cost $300 to enter and get a ribbon and maybe a tote bag with some grooming supplies. Woo. You just jumped around a prelim course, risking your neck and you win...show sheen. Meanwhile my friend grooms her QH to the nines, gets on, WTC and walks out with new half chaps and a check. Or a saddle. The barrel racer wins a $1000 jack pot. I guess jumpers can be lucrative- in that they cover showing expenses.

I think if the Olympic Disciplines want to capture riders, and prevent them from siphoning into 3' hunter world, they need to start the lesson programs. If eventers want kids to kick on and sit up, they need to start them over the first cross rail. If dressage riders want kids with educated seats, they need to start wee ones on the longe. You can't just keep relying on the local hunter trainer to start kids to succeed in all disciplines- they teach what they know.

My new barn has a number of outstanding horses in the jumper field and I was watching one flat yesterday- he was powerful and strong. The contrast to my horse- fast becoming a kick along quiet local hunter was stark. I can see where you'd not necessarly be able to ride the jumper well after staying soft and out of my horses face as she toodled around the jumps. But she and I are not the problem. The problem is that the kid who wants to ride the jumpers and is starting out... does not have access to trainers and lesson horses to prepare them for jumpers until they reach a degree of proficiency and financial commitment (buy a horse)... in a hunter program. They have access to horses like mine.

What if we had lesson programs that started with the foundation of the (for lack of a better word) European style? And they rode retired jumpers and dressage horses- and learned from the start that type of ride? I bet we'd have more gutsy kids stick to the sport.

[findeight]

As to the trainers who point out the problem with letting the kids learn. Why not let 'em sink or swim a bit?


Out of this for awhile and it is starting to get into the same old/same old round and round it always does but...

Far as the above remark? Yeah, sure, let them sink or swim BUT NOT ON MY HORSE. Trainers cannot be expected to provide quality rides for worthy but inexperienced kids because those rides belong to CLIENTS who are paying for professional services and have an expectation any rider who gets on that the horse will be as good or better then they are.
Many of the "richer" kids do have more experience and miles in the saddle on better mounts. And...gasp...some are actually quite good dispite having more money.

I feel sorry for those who cannot afford a higher quality animal that requires a better ride but....I cannot and will not support what amounts to a school horse for them to learn on while I pay for it and the reschooling that may be required for their mistakes.

I DO sponser a sportsmanship award annually and I DO allow worthy kids to ride mine-after they prove they can. But they have to get themselves to the barn too-I cannot drive 40 miles to get them and bring them back.

There are a ton of clients in the business that just want more of a recreational ride and do not want to become mini GMs. Even more parents with more then one kid in more then one sport that just do not have the time to spend with a non driving kid at a barn that does not have any extra 50k plus show horses for twice a week kid to ride.

Somebody mentiones it was hard to find good facilities and footing unless it's an active show barn? Well, DUH, good intentions don't pay 60k to level and redo the ring footing or the 450k for that indoor.

I started with squat, no way to get to a barn and worked thru that to a nice series of well regarded horses in 2 disciplnes +breed shows. I never got the shot at the Olympics or elite levels and am none the worse for it. Don't feel a failure at all. Neither should anybody else if they don't make the "big leagues".

You know, there is a Gymnastics school locally that has produced elite competitors, have friends with little ice skaters nationally ranked. Costs like hell. These kids basically have to live and breathe it and if the parent cannot afford it? There is a limit to what any coach in those sports can offer and that is a financial commitment. It may not be as much as with keeping a horse but it's thousands and thousands a year. No coach can offer help to a worthy but financially challenged kid without being supported by many others that can pay.

The reality is NOBODY without at least some money is going to the Olympics or Worlds. Our sport costs even more then any of the others because of the horse. That's the reality.

[findeight]

Pardon me here but a second and related post to the above...

So many say they have the dedication and drive but so few do. True in all the sports.

The kids will tell you how wonderful they are and how hard they work, reality is they are not and they do not. They are not willing to really put in the time. Sometimes it's parental failure to provide promised transportation, most of the time "something came up" when they are not where they said they would be after begging for the chance to be there. Bend over backward to offer the chance and they no show or disappear when most needed. Typical kid behavior but not acceptable for one trying to eke their way into the sport.

Everybody thinks they are the exception but few really realize how tough that commitment is. The sacrifice of family time, the impact on school with the traveling to the shows (home schooling is probably a must), missing all the social things in high school. It's a family commitment few can or are willing to make.

I discourage any thinking about child behavior being any better or parents behaving any differently in Europe. They have their share of overindulged, catered to brats behaving badly in public rivaling any over here. Not so sure they all do all their own horse work either, they have alot of groom positions advertised.

The biggest point missed in this ongoing debate is we are a huge country with vast distances and many other things to do with horses then those two marquee disciplines perceived to be so popular in Europe. There is no comparison. The "Why" about popularity is we don't have a monopoly on horse sports and have to share with everything fron Arabs to cutting to reining to rodeo to Quarter horses.

And SJ does not televise that well, Dressage is...well...televises even less well. Eventing does a little better and does have an NBC slot that is well promoted. But if most people cannot do it and you cannot bet on it? It's a niche sport.

[arnika]

I hate to admit it but findeight is exactly right. (Not that I hate to agree with findeight, just that I hate to admit that Olympic discipline riding is indeed a niche sport in the USA.)

We can't get enough sponsors to cover the costs of bringing up ambitious riders and funding a team simply because the vast majority of riders/parents/related businesses are involved in hunters which is not an international sport.

[findeight]

We can't get enough sponsors to cover the costs of bringing up ambitious riders and funding a team simply because the vast majority of riders/parents/related businesses are involved in hunters which is not an international sport.

Actually, the majority are involved with WESTERN disciplines or just plain old recreational horses.

I have to say there ain't a thing wrong with just being a competent rider or Pro earning a living below that top rung. Very, very, very few reach that top rung in anything, few are the CEOs, Oscar winners, wear those big sports finals winners rings or become household names. We don't have to be.

Maybe what I am trying to say is International ring success does NOT define our overall levels of horsemanship and nobody needs to feel left out or a failure if they don't reach those levels. It's not all about winning, even there. And it's not like the purse money covers anything-even over there it's buying and selling, making them up and flipping them for a profit.

Maybe some set a little bit of an unreasonable goal and get upset when they don't get there. Maybe setting a more reasonable goal to attain first, like getting 3'6"/level 1-2 experience would be better. After all, 99% of the riders in this country never jump over 3' and I'd bet 95% of the riders in this country don't even jump, on purpose anyway.

[grandprixjump]

and it comes down to...

"The UNITED STATES, is NO LONGER putting our best riders into the international ring, WE ARE PUTTING OUR BEST RIDERS WITH MONEY there..."

And yes there are a lot of factors to that, kids with talent aren't getting the rides in favor of paying customers, cost of showing here, cost of BUYING THE WIN (Price of a competitive horse), 20+ years ago, you wouldn't have heard of a person BUYING the horse to put them on the Olympic Team, they trained the horse to get there themselves...

[magnolia73]

"The UNITED STATES, is NO LONGER putting our best riders into the international ring, WE ARE PUTTING OUR BEST RIDERS WITH MONEY there..."


No, we put our best riders in the Olympics. To get the skill and experience to become a best rider, takes money and / or connections. Like it or not, Georgina Bloomberg is a better rider than most of us, and a big part of that is her access to the right horses and trainers at the right time. It's not like she is partying and shows up to the ring once a week.

Our team this year was excellent- not one of the members of any discipline appeared to have "bought" their place. I don't think many people ride better than McLain, Beezie, Karen Oconnor, Phillip Dutton.... the dressage guy (Robert Dover?). I don't think there are many poor people who ride better- one thing all those riders have in common- they RIDE. A lot. And work damn hard at it. Of course Philip Dutton rides well- he rides a billion horses. They are the best but they aren't munching bon bons waiting for their next medal , they are working harder to keep their place.

The best riders DO rise up, but it takes money and horses and luck. And honestly- riding is a life long pursuit- I would not expect 20 somethings to be doing that well internationally.

[hype]

Our sport is expensive. A trainer can and often time DOES subsidize an Olympic caliber type kid in other sports like gymnastics. Do you think Bela K would allow a kid with the drive and talent to not compete or get training because they couldn't afford it? No, way! He'd make sure that they got that training one way or another. It is different supporting one kid along the way versus a horse and kid and probably $3000 in expenses week after week at the bigger shows.

In Europe it is just less expensive to show. The trainers there don't have mommy and daddy "buying" their kids ribbons. For the most part, they have the jumpers and that is it. It is a whole lot more difficult for mom and dad to buy ribbons on a jumper than a hunter. The trainers aren't at the shows 30 plus weeks a year and actually are able to train kids at home. They are developing riders versus developing kids who can get into the show ring.

Yes, there are many who are lucky enough to have talent and money and those will probably end up being our Olympic team in the future.

Just imagine what the NBA would look like if you had to have BOTH talent AND money. I'm guessing that it would look a lot different than it does now.

I think that even George Morris said that he came from a modest start and that in today's current show environment he probably wouldn't be where he is today.

I think that many are trying to change things and offer chances for kids to get opportunities and that is to be applauded.

[grandprixjump]

No, we put our best riders in the Olympics. To get the skill and experience to become a best rider, takes money and / or connections. Like it or not, Georgina Bloomberg is a better rider than most of us, and a big part of that is her access to the right horses and trainers at the right time. It's not like she is partying and shows up to the ring once a week.

Our team this year was excellent- not one of the members of any discipline appeared to have "bought" their place. I don't think many people ride better than McLain, Beezie, Karen Oconnor, Phillip Dutton.... the dressage guy (Robert Dover?). I don't think there are many poor people who ride better- one thing all those riders have in common- they RIDE. A lot. And work damn hard at it. Of course Philip Dutton rides well- he rides a billion horses. They are the best but they aren't munching bon bons waiting for their next medal , they are working harder to keep their place.

The best riders DO rise up, but it takes money and horses and luck. And honestly- riding is a life long pursuit- I would not expect 20 somethings to be doing that well internationally.

The people on the team didn't earn their place, I was making a comment toward, the pool is a lot smaller. There could be 100's of others that are just as good as them, have a better day at the trials, and take their place, but without the name, they NEVER even get the chance. Because of the expense of showing and making a name for yourself.. Most other sports have 1000's of kids or adults trying out for slots, imagine how many track and field, gymnastics, swimming, for example. Anyone can start up the chain at very minimal expense compared to equestrian sports. Even in the winter sports, the equipment doesn't cost as much as their house...

[Void]

if QH people make as much money as a previous poster mentioned maybe I should switch sports lol ;)

[Linny]

I have not read all the posts but wanted to weigh in.

First, I think that our pro's are (in many cases) forced to train ammys and jr's and run "lesson and/or training" barns to stay alive. Showing at the level needed to establish credentials is so expensive that it is out of the realm of all but the well to do or well supported. If a trainer has clients that pay big day rates and staff enough to do the grunt work, they may be able to make enough per show (and have time enough) to show and develop their own horse(s.)
If a young trainer decides she wants to start out with two or three young prospects (maybe an OTTB, a WB castoff from a BNT and a mutt that can jump) what can she do? If she goes to work for an established barn/trainer she will probably have little time to work her own. She'll teach clients, hack horses, maybe school some and handle assorted barn chores. Her horses will backslide as she is focusing on the client stock. If she hangs out a shingle on her own, it's no better. She may have alot of time and maybe her hubby or parents help keep mac and cheese in the pot and hay in the manger but how do you make a name for yourself without going to shows? You can't. The horses are ready to get out there but it's expensive to show so they have only "local" resumes. They may be able to win at bigger venues (thus brining better prices) but you can't afford the $1k up front to stable and show at a big show for a week, much less getting out there a couple of times a month to establish your reputation and your horse's quality.
Showing is simply too costly and it is only through showing that a rider can make a name for him/herself. (I hear that the same properties often cost far less per day for QH and other shows so the HJ world, which has simply shrugged and paid up is in some ways it's own worst enemy.)

As for young talent, because of the costs involved in operating a barn, trainers are forced to grant the most attention to clients that spend the most. It's nice to have barn rats to clean tack and lunge horses and deal with the nasty new sale horse, when the list of "horses that need to hack" comes out every day, the best rides to to the girl with the big EQ horse and the Jr hunter, not the barn rat that actually took the squirrelly OTTB from nutcase to nice 3' horse last year. The Big Eq rider needs saddle time to hone her skills for Zones, the barn rat might show next year in a couple of locals. The barn rat truly wants a riding career, the other girl wants to get an MBA and take over Microsoft. The trainer has to pay crazy bills so she makes sure that the BIG EQ girls gets to the Zones. She can advance the trainer's reputation, the barn rat cannot.

There was a time when wealthy patrons of equestrian sports would breed and develop or buy young stock for their trainers to show in both hunters and jumpers. The attitude was like that of racing owners which was, "We buy the horses and hand them over to trainers to develop them to their potential." Today the scions of those wealthy families have in many cases moved from their roots in the Northern Virginia/Westchester/Main Line horsey communities and if they ride they are often the AO who shows their own, with help from a trainer who in generations past would be riding FOR them. The estate they were raised on has been sold to pay taxes and they live in the suburbs and just don't live the "equestrian lifestyle" of their parents and grandparents generations.

I do think that it makes sense to allow young people an array of experiences and recall that only an elite few make the top. My son is 9 and wants to play shortstop for the Red Sox. He's a good little baseball player but since I know that the odds are stacked against him making it to Fenway he'll be encouraged to do other things, not just play baseball as a teen. If he can get a degree and a nice job, he can get to Fenway (in the stads) as often as he wants.

It takes more than just the commitment of the rider to make the elite levels. From the time they are very young, they need their parents to be willing to allow a single focus. They need parents (like in McLain's case) that undertand the idea that being a top rider/trainer has worth. Most parents of kids that do well on the A circuit are better off then the trainers. They see trainer struggling to pay the light bills and hoping that a big sale goes through to pay the property taxes and would prefer that daughter get an MBA and become a client, not a trainer. To get to the top, you need good horses. The price of a good horse has risen and the cost of making one and establishing his form at shows has risen dramatically.

[Go Fish]

Actually, the majority are involved with WESTERN disciplines or just plain old recreational horses.

Yup...the arrogance of "english" disciplines involved from the Olympics downward I find curious and unexplainable. I've shown western for many years at the highest levels. To ignore the money spent on other disciplines and assuming they have no place at the table is stupid. How do you think reining, if it should ever get to the Olympics, would go over with the public? Talk about media buy-in.

[Horseymama]

International competition takes serious money—easily $30,000 to $50,000 per year per horse, depending on the discipline, or more.


For show jumping, that will maybe cover the winter circuit.


Agree except for one point: European governments do not pay for equestrian sports, the $$ comes from SPONSORS, and the corporations are also funding national programs - developing young riders etc. Their approach to sponsorships includes ROI for the sponsor, not Gimme Gimme And I'll Put Your Logo On My Saddle Pad crap.


Coreen is right. Sponsorship is key, and that's really what we don't have in this country. We do NOT know how to market our sport the the GP. If we could figure that out, we could generate more interest and more sponsorship money to offset the cost of doing it on your own. Not a lot of people have the talent and the means to make it to the top in the equestrian sports. That's why we don't have a bigger pool of talent to draw from. Because currently you need talent and money.