Pro-Rate for time at shows?

[Omaha]

Just a quick question for those of you with horses in training - does your trainer pro-rate their monthly fees for time away at shows? For example, if the trainer is away at a show for two weeks, do they reduce the training fees by 50% for that month?

Does anyone not pro-rate? If not, what is the justification?

I'm curious, because the trainer with whom I currently have my horse has just informed me that she doesn't pro-rate training fees, even though she was gone for 17 days this month - I'm trying to find out if that is a common practice. The previous trainer I worked with had always pro-rated the fees for time away at shows.

[Horseymama]

I am a trainer and I charge by ride and/or lesson, so if I am away at shows and I don't ride your horse or give you a lesson, I obviously don't charge for it. But I am not a BNT and a lot times you will pay for full training in a BNT barn whether you go to shows with the trainer or not. The justification being that if you are in a show barn you go to shows. Otherwise board at a boarding barn, haul in for lessons, and meet the trainer at shows.

[MHM]

Also, the trainer's mortgage is not pro-rated because s/he is away at a show. If the horse is still at the farm while the trainer is away, the horse is still using hay/feed/shavings/staff at home.

[dove]

Also, the trainer's mortgage is not pro-rated because s/he is away at a show. If the horse is still at the farm while the trainer is away, the horse is still using hay/feed/shavings/staff at home.

I got the impression that the OP was not asking for her board to be pro rated, just the "training" aspect of it.

I kinda agree that if your trainer is away for more than half the month you should not have to pay the full training fee that you would pay when your trainer is home the whole time...Or maybe I would just be a little worried about how often my horse is even ridden when trainer is there the whole time...maybe being away half the month made no difference in # of pro rides.

[Omaha]

To clarify - yes, I'm asking about training being pro-rated, not boarding. She owns the barn and is also the trainer, so I pay both my board and training fees to her, though.

A little background - horse is in full training, so he's ridden 3x a week by trainer, 3x a week by me, has one day off, so he's not getting extra rides when she's back (she doesn't think horses should be ridden 2x in one day, which I'm fine with).

Horse is not quite "show-ready" (her words), which is the reason we're home when she's at the shows...

[toomanyponies]

Presuming your horse stays home while trainer is at horse shows? I guess the question is why are you at a show barn if you are not showing? If your horse is too green to go, maybe you should have him either at a boarding barn, and ship in, OR at a trainer who is big enough to have assistants to train while they are gone OR with a trainer who specializes in younger horses. . .

But no, show barns do not pro-rate full board. In fact, not only do they not prorate, they charge extra at shows in the form of a 'day fee' or coaching/riding/grooming fee :-)

There are barns however, that will board and then charge a la carte for rides and lessons - this sounds like the plan that might suit you.

[RockinHorse]

My trainer has two assistants, one of which stays home so training is covered during extended showing trips.

If I rode with a trainer who did not have an assistant, whether or not I expected a discount would depend on the situation for example.

If the trainer is away at shows for a good portion of the time and does not have an assistant to cover for her, I might expect a discount. Of course, if the trainer was significantly cheaper than the other trainers in the area, I might not expect a discount since it would appear the discount was already factored into the price.

If the trainer only goes away for half the month, once or twice a year I would not expect a discount.

ETA: Of course, I would probably not ride with a trainer who didn't have an assistant at home and who was away a significant part of the time unless I was planning to be away at the shows with them.

[WorthTheWait95]

Almost every full care, full training barn I've been to has never pro rated anything. We had to pay full care board and training at home even when we were gone for months on end at shows like WEF. We payed additional training and care fees at the horse shows on top of what we payed at home.

I always thought it was ridiculous. I can understand paying to hold the physical stall while your gone if there are people beating down the doors but not double paying for every service. Why am I paying a grooming fee or for extra turnout when my horse is not there to be groomed or turned out? :confused:

The justification was always 'Because I'm (fill in the blank) BNT! That's why!!!!!'

I'm a much happier person with my horses at a normal full care barn and just meeting trainers at shows. Much cheaper!

[gottagrey]

Ah you raise a very valid point - often these situations amaze me as no one seems to balk at having to pay for services they are not receiving i.e. paying full training when they are actually receiving half training and the justification seems to be well you shouldn't be at this barn if you/your horse isn't ready for prime time - isn't that the POINT of being in a training barn situation - so your horse can get the training you want.

Now begs the question if you went to a restaurant and were charged extra for a cup of coffee or any item you didn't receive - you would ask that it be removed from your bill; why shouldn't this particular situation be any different. Quite frankly if you're paying say 1200 training board (say 800 for board and 400 for training) and you are only receiving 200 worth of training, I would say something to trainer. It's not fair. If you go to get 4 new tires on your car, pay for 4 and only have 2 put on- you're going to go back and demand a refund or get the other 2 tires - why is the equestrian world any different? And NO I do not what to hear about how the mortgage /bills still have to get paid - so do mine.

[RockinHorse]

Ah you raise a very valid point - often these situations amaze me as no one seems to balk at having to pay for services they are not receiving i.e. paying full training when they are actually receiving half training and the justification seems to be well you shouldn't be at this barn if you/your horse isn't ready for prime time - isn't that the POINT of being in a training barn situation - so your horse can get the training you want.

Now begs the question if you went to a restaurant and were charged extra for a cup of coffee or any item you didn't receive - you would ask that it be removed from your bill; why shouldn't this particular situation be any different. Quite frankly if you're paying say 1200 training board (say 800 for board and 400 for training) and you are only receiving 200 worth of training, I would say something to trainer. It's not fair. If you go to get 4 new tires on your car, pay for 4 and only have 2 put on- you're going to go back and demand a refund or get the other 2 tires - why is the equestrian world any different? And NO I do not what to hear about how the mortgage /bills still have to get paid - so do mine.


The problem I see with this comparison is that training is not a tangible good like a tire or a cup of coffee. The value is not necessarily based on individual instances but may be based more on a result or experience over time (that time being longer than the single month in question). Of course if you are taking individually scheduled and paid for lessons as opposed to a training package, then I think you can view each lesson as something tangible. With my trainer, when I pay for training, I pay by the month. What I get each month may vary in time spent but I feel I am always receiving value for my money.

[WorthTheWait95]

The problem I see with this comparison is that training is not a tangible good like a tire or a cup of coffee. The value is not necessarily based on individual instances but may be based more on a result or experience over time (that time being longer than the single month in question). Of course if you are taking individually scheduled and paid for lessons as opposed to a training package, then I think you can view each lesson as something tangible. With my trainer, when I pay for training, I pay by the month. What I get each month may vary in time spent but I feel I am always receiving value for my money.

But the trainers make it tangible even in packages by stating you will get 3 rides/week and 3 lessons/week or whatever it is they call full training. If you don't receive those services why on earth should you pay for them?

If you're in a training situation that you feel is priced fairly and you're getting your money's worth then that is awesome but IME it's rare for people to speak up against their trainer when they feel they are being screwed over which is why double charging and bill padding is so prevalent. Hey, if I thought I could get double the money for half the work I might be tempted to give it a try too!

I always tell people I know that have a concern over a bill to ask for a fully itemized break down so they can go over it with the trainer. If he/she refuses they're obviously hiding something. Always keep a copy of your boarding/training contract too so you're both clear on the ground rules.

[Jsalem]

That's a tough one. We have found that the "package" concept works for some clients and not for others. We tried offering a discounted package with the concept that if all the lessons/riders were taken, the client got a very good deal that month ($25 lessons and rides- how cheap is that?). If a few were missed, the trainer got a better deal. It was supposed to all work out in the end. And it really did average out as very fair on both ends (we keep very detailed records to insure that we live up to our end of the bargain). Our biggest package was for 3x per week training. But we found that it was just too hard to manage. Some clients loved it because of the value it offered. But some just let it drive them crazy with counting and makeups and whatnot. All of the phone calls, emails regarding "makeups" wasn't worth the hassle.

I'm not sure that there's a perfect system. A la carte ends up very expensive for the client and it doesn't allow the trainer to have any kind of dependable income. We're going to try a combination and see if that works better.

A couple of things I would suggest:
Find out what the trainer's regular work schedule is. If the trainer shows a lot, is someone competent left at home for lessons and rides? (Our training schedule is Mon - Thur, leaving the weekend for showing. We don't really do "full training" unless the horse is going to be travelling to shows with us).
Is there a covered arena? Weather can really put a crimp in the training schedule.

I think the client really needs to look at the big picture. How many days per week do you need training? Can the trainer's schedule accomodate that? Is the training rate fair for the amount of training you actually receive? Is the trainer also providing care services for an absent owner? (wrapping, wound care, clipping, etc)- the time spent outside of the ring looking after client's horse needs to be compensated.

So, OP, if the training rate is fair for the services you actually receive, I wouldn't "nickel and dime." You might find that a package rate is a lot cheaper than the going rate for the services you get. If it's not, then you need a new arrangement.

[Come Shine]

A trainer we used to have didn't even pro-rate when he was in Hawaii for a month on a vacay.

[meupatdoes]

Also, the trainer's mortgage is not pro-rated because s/he is away at a show. If the horse is still at the farm while the trainer is away, the horse is still using hay/feed/shavings/staff at home.

By that logic I'm sure when the client sends the horse to the show, the trainer will pro-rate the At Home board because the horse isn't using shavings at home or a groom mucking the stall/tacking up at home or contributing to the need to drag the ring at home.

Surely a per-day pro-rate of the home board will be put towards the show shavings, the show mucking/tacking up, etc, and if there is a Training Package that the horse is also on at home the client who is already paying to have the horse schooled at home, where it is not, will be able to put that training package toward the pro riding the horse on the show grounds, where the horse is instead of paying for everything twice both for where the horse is and where it isn't.


Hm?

[TSWJB]

in some of my past training situations.
1) you can decide to do training board or regular board each month. if the trainer was away too much of the month i would do regular board and pay per service. OR she would pro rate the bill. like is she was away for a week. then i paid 3 weeks training board. if she was away for a day or two i would just miss a training session. but the discount on the training board made it worthwile.
2) another place i boarded. you had to do at least 300 a month in training. they would try to find someone to fill in when regular trainer was unavailable or they would pro rate the bill.

the thing about horse people clients and trainers, is that they do things so differently than what other business would allow. most of the time the client is too afraid to rock the boat, so they allow themselves to be ripped and then come on COTH to b%tch about it.
talk to the trainer. if she is away 17 days out of the month. i would just do regular board. and if she would not allow this. i personally would consider moving out. its rediculous to pay for 17 days of training and not receive something in return. how about credits with horse show coaching or something? extra lessons. clipping horse for free. i would eat maybe a week of no training, but 17 days. no way!

[chawley]

My trainer charges per ride and lesson so when he's away at a show, you aren't getting charged.

[dab]

The trainers I've ridden with who offer a full training option do not pro-rate -- I think I still ended up ahead about 11 of 12 months in a year -- My current trainer and others I've ridden with have been good about giving me more homework when they are away -- Current trainer also expects me to call him every few days to discuss my rides -- He has a fairly small barn, so he can make time to talk with clients who remain at home -- I'm more used to working with trainers who would catch up on our progress when they got home, and that usually works out fine too --

[findeight]

My trainers have always charged board and then gone a la carte for lessons and training-part of why I picked them. Don't need that much-maybe 2 to 5 lessons a month and an occaisional Pro school plus some decent riding kid or adult to hack when I can't get there at no charge.

In cases where I priced out what is called "full training board", if a person needed alot, like 8 lessons and 4 Pro rides a month, a la carte would be too expensive.

If trainer cannot fulfill their end of that contract and provide services half the month, or more? That needs to be dealt with.

Kind of surprised that OPs trainer does not have a qualified assistent at home, personally would never go to a place that did haul alot and had nobody at home....but wanted to collect for unperformed services anyway.

OP needs to re evaluate her situation, especially if she is on a budget. This may not be the best value for the money. This may also be an indication this barn does not want her business of she is not going on the road with them.

[Tex Mex]

"Training" usually consists of so much more than the hour spent on the horse or teaching you. It usually means they are managing a staff of grooms, assistants, etc. and also includes everything else that they manage for you- vet, farrier, feeding details, issues that arise regarding sales, future showing, etc. and I'm sure she is available by phone even when she is away.

That said, if you really feel like it's too expensive and you aren't getting your money's worth, it doesn't hurt to ask for an adjusted rate until you start showing. If you are a good, nice, low-maintenance customer she might be willing to work with you.

[florida foxhunter]

In past years, when I've been with a few different BNT's, I noticed I didn't get a break on board (full or training) but still had to pay extra "day care", shipping to shows, and riding fees at the show.....it's not cheap!!.......but I always just assumed it was part of the way the business is done............(I have had one allow me to "haul" to the show from their farm, and do my own "day care" to save a few $$$......since I was going to be there anyway)

[Jsalem]

The "day care" fee at shows covers the tremendous amount of extra work and extra equipment required to pack up the circus and set up at the show. I have to hire additional help to get the work done. That help then works much longer and harder hours at the show- and are paid a higher rate, than for "at home" days. I'm not sure how anyone could think that this could in any way be covered by the board at home. Shavings at the show can't be bought in bulk, so bedding at the show is an additional cost. I still have to leave staff at home to take care of the the horses at home. When there are fewer horses there, the staff actually has the time to get extra things done like paint jumps, repair fences, and power wash the interior of the barn.

The training at our farm can be done at shows. For non-showing days, we'll count a lesson or training ride towards a "package".

[Omaha]

I think my original intent was just to see if it's more common to pro-rate or not pro-rate when the trainer is away and your horse isn't being trained.

Sounds like big-name trainers generally do not pro-rate, and local/regional trainers may or may not.

With regards to my personal situation, it's really not that big of a deal, so I might just ask if she'll credit me a lesson or two (they're not included in training). As for the grooms and staff - definitely NOT in the picture here. I can only dream of the day that someone scrubs the crusty mud off my horse for me!