When do you know it is time to put down a young horse? Update page 4

[sansibar]

So my horse has not been doing well, here is basically everything that has happened that has lead us up to this point.

I bought my now nine year old trakehner when he was 7, we began showing and winning and doing really well together he was headed to be my new High Jr jumper, unfortunately he coliced many times, we ended up taking him to universities to discover the cause of that and the chronic diareahha that he had and they only were able to say the the cause was undetermined for both circumstances. So the next year comes around he is 8 he manages to twist a hock as the vet put it, so we put him off for a few months, next he managed to as the vet put it "cause inflammation in the joints due to the fall he had", aka he has arthritis, so the vet put him on injections to get rid of the inflammation... little did we know he meant arthritis which we know you cannot get rid of. So any ways horse gets turned out in a large paddock one day with out our knowledge after being off for months and he tears a suspensory tendon...yay. So we decide to send the horse of to be rested until he is better at a rehab barn. 6 months later we recheck the tendon and it is good as gold! by this point it is January of 2009. So when the vet x-rayed him she said his arthritis had developed so rapidly that he will never be more then a pasture and trail horse. Okay well that was a bit of a shock but we realised that it was for his best and plus my dad could still use him as a trail horse. In may he began dropping a tonne of weight, like really really ridiculous amounts of weight, so we tried stalling him, getting supplements putting him in an outdoor stall everything and nothing worked, until we tried finishing touch, in a few weeks he has put on hundreds of pounds literally. Now the vet e-mails us saying he is not even pasture sound at this point, and we seriously need to consider the quality of life that we want to give him due to the arthritis and his weight conditions, as well as him now being anemic, having an increase in lymphocytes and a few other blood conditions.

I don't know I really don't want to have to put him down, but I never want him to suffer, I just don't really see him being in pain, however I only go up once every few weeks. The BO says some days he is good and other days he isn't, I really don't want to have to put him down, he is such an amazing horse, that I feel like I am wasting his life by putting him down at 9 years old. I had never seen this horse step lame until this summer when he was in the paddock, he had such a big heart, he never should pain.

And now I am not sue even more so since he just apparently jumped the fenced to his small paddock and into another larger one.

So how do you decide when it is time? I am young and I understand that I don't want to keep him alive for my self, I want what is best for him, but right now I really don't know.

This is him while he was competing he never understood the concept of jumping the actual height of the jump never knocked a rail down in his life
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r461/sansibarsby/n500990313_2935527_9587.jpg
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r461/sansibarsby/n500990313_3491717_7680.jpg

This is him before he lost the weight
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2728/222/37/500990313/n500990313_6373043_2932124.jpg

This is him before he gained the weight back
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r461/sansibarsby/DSC_0340.jpg

This is him after the weight gain recently (his butt still needs to gain it all back)
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r461/sansibarsby/DSC_0032.jpg

I just don't want to regret my decision in the end

[joiedevie99]

It sounds like you may be seeing a different horse if you only happen to see him on his good days. Ask the BM to call you the next time he has a bad day and go see him- even if it means taking off work early or something. In order to decide whether the vets recommendation is worth considering, you need to see for yourself what he is like on his worst day. You already know what he is like on his good days.

If his bad days seems bad when you see it in person, get a second opinion from a vet you trust- or get a referral to a university hospital. It is worth the peace of mind to hear it from another person- and you never know if they will think of drug you haven't tried or something else that might get him a few more good years.

[Simkie]

My personal "stop" point is when the horse is in pain that is not manageable or when there is no hope of recovery or improvement.

I also think that there is no such thing as too early....but it is very, very easy to wait too long.

Horses are also tricky because they have EVOLVED to hide any indication of pain or lameness or weakness.

No animal should have to suffer. The kindest thing we can ever do is to end their suffering or to let them go before they begin to suffer.

Given your account of things, my personal decision would have been to put him down some time ago.

I'm sorry :(

[kookicat]

My personal "stop" point is when the horse is in pain that is not manageable or when there is no hope of recovery or improvement.

I also think that there is no such thing as too early....but it is very, very easy to wait too long.

Horses are also tricky because they have EVOLVED to hide any indication of pain or lameness or weakness.

No animal should have to suffer. The kindest thing we can ever do is to end their suffering or to let them go before they begin to suffer.

Given your account of things, my personal decision would have been to put him down some time ago.

I'm sorry :(

I have to agree with this. I'm sorry- letting one go is never easy, and it's twice as hard when they're still young.

[dalpal]

Animals will lose weight when they are in pain....the weight loss may be in coorelation with his arthritis.

I would get a second opinion just to be sure (for myself), but if a second vet agreed with what you have been told, I would make that horrible decision (and it's not one that I take lightly...but in this case, it may be the right decision)

Hugs to you.

[Gracie]

From a practical point of view:
1. Can the horse fulfill the purpose for which it was purchased?
2. Is the horse in chronic pain? Can the pain be managed?
3. How long can you afford to pay vet bills, board bills, etc. towards a horse no one can ride?

From an emotional point of view:
1. The horse is your friend.

From either of these points of view:
You have to decide the solution that is best for the horse.

[Thomas_1]

I'd be inclined to suggest you get your worm management checked and also consider worm damage or ulcers.

Has he been scoped?

[Catersun]

I'm with Thomas... it's sounds like there is far more going on with your horse than you have chipped at the surface.

[FindersKeepers]

I'd get him seen by someone else. From what you've said, your vet sounds less than 100% trustworthy at this point...

If you want a clear cut answer, put him on a trailer and take him to a university. Have them do a full exam and give their opinion on his quality of life.

Is he on anything for his joints? adequan, legend? bute? There's no cure for arthritis, but it can be a manageable condition in most cases. The weight loss could have been ulcers definitely or maybe a virus.

If he were mine, I'd do a little more digging first. I'd get a second opinion.

If his arthritis can't be managed, I'd let him go before winter.

[Long Spot]

Wow. That's a huge change in weight there.

I'm sorry you are going through this with him.

As Thomas said, I think looking at your worming program and trying to do what you can there is probably the cheapest and most likely culprit.

Gosh. After that I'd be inclined to call in a vet who's specialty is endocrine, immune, and digestive systems.

Soundess sounds like it's secondary at this point. But something sure is going on with him with the weight thing. Finding out what sounds like it could be hard and expensive.

Not to sound crass, but you need to figure out your bottom line of what you are willing to put into this horse, trying to take out the emotional as much as you can. (So very hard, I know!)

Not everyone has the same bottom line. Some might be able to go the distance to find and try to treat what it is. Some might find and then decide they can't afford treatment and make their decision from there; either not treat and make the hard decision or find a home who is willing to treat.

Just don't be the person who lets him sit and makes no decision, hoping it will get better on it's own. That's the one very unfair thing you could do for this horse.

Good luck with this. I'm interested in reading other responses. Especially Ghazzu and other great vets who post to this board.

[aaussie_gal]

I'd be inclined to suggest you get your worm management checked and also consider worm damage or ulcers.

Has he been scoped?


Encysted strongyles can cause anemia.

[HealingHeart]

I think he is trying to heal, may not be perfect to everyone's "value" system, but if it is acceptable to you, then give him the time.... He sounds and looks like he is making progress. He is a beautiful horse. Also, remember to Think positive and it would be helpful if the people around you and the horse also thought positive. If everyone is thinking these negative thoughts, your horse will pick up on them ... and could react accordingly from fear...

Hang in there..... I support your efforts and what ever decision you decide. Until one walks in the shoes of another, no one should even think about judging your decisions. Take care....

[sayyadina]

I'd like to add that there are things you can do with your horse besides ride him, if it turns out he is not suffering and his issues can be fixed.

One of my mares is quite arthritic & has been retired from riding. Since I stopped riding her, I've been working on doing some clicker/trick training with her. Obviously, what I'm going to do with her depends on her ability to do what I'm asking, so I don't do anything that's very demanding on her. But we have fun together.

However, if he is in pain that cannot be alleviated or his weight issues cannot be solved, then the kindest thing to do would be to put him down.

[FancyASB]

I'll put my human side into the mix - I have severe RA in my hips and literally my entire body. Yes, I have pain but only on rare instances do I take more than an aleeve. With arthritis, idle is worst than moving, I'm on the go daily but have chairs all over my property wheneven I need to rest my joints. Yes, he will have his good days and his bad days; same with me. I know it is different with a 1,000 lbs on his joints but if he is still active give him a chance. I've found pure yucca has helped my RA, I can tell the difference when I miss my dose. A soft surface really helps too, if I walk on a hard surface very long my joints do hurt. One question does he lay down a lot? If not, I would say he can stand any discomfort he is experiencing. When I walk I have the gait of a person with MS, can you tell if he has an unusual movement in his hips, legs, etc?

[chaltagor]

From a practical point of view:

3. How long can you afford to pay vet bills, board bills, etc. towards a horse no one can ride?

I've always wondered how a horse no one can ride is more expensive than a horse that can be ridden. As soon as they are unrideable does the BO increase the board?

[WorthTheWait95]

Your vet e-mailed you with such a horrible diagnosis/decision?! Are you kidding? The decision an owner has to make to put a horse down should be discussed over the phone at least if not in person. You don't just shoot off an animal saying 'hey, I think you should euth your horse.-xxxx xxxxx, DVM.'

I think you should get a second opinion from a different vet personally. Preferably a vet whos ground breaking diagnosis isn't a 'twisted hock' and can't even convey the simple diagnosis of arthritis in a clear manner.

I don't know. Your vet may be amazing but he sure sounds like an idiot from your description and it wouldn't shock me to find out he overlooked a very simple cause like one of the issues listed above.

[Posting Trot]

I think you've gotten some great responses. In your position, I would get an outside vet's opinion.

I'd also look very hard at the facility where you're keeping the horse, because to me that horse looks wormy. But that's something you can ask the new vet about as well.

I think I'd put off the euthanasia question until I had some answers on the basic health of the horse and possibilities for rehabbing and having a useful trail horse for your father.

Arthritis is very manageable, particularly if the horse is basically going to be used as a pleasure horse.

Also, as you note, he's still a pretty young horse; I wouldn't be quick to write off his ability to heal.

Good luck.

[sansibar]

Your vet e-mailed you with such a horrible diagnosis/decision?! Are you kidding? The decision an owner has to make to put a horse down should be discussed over the phone at least if not in person. You don't just shoot off an animal saying 'hey, I think you should euth your horse.-xxxx xxxxx, DVM.'

I think you should get a second opinion from a different vet personally. Preferably a vet whos ground breaking diagnosis isn't a 'twisted hock' and can't even convey the simple diagnosis of arthritis in a clear manner.

I don't know. Your vet may be amazing but he sure sounds like an idiot from your description and it wouldn't shock me to find out he overlooked a very simple cause like one of the issues listed above.

Ya we switched from the twisted hock vet lol, the other vet usually does call us but she had e-mailed the blood tests, and put her opinion out there, which we pretty much already knew was going to come in at some point.

The horse is wormed very often, even for tapes. I think somewhere some one mentioned in one of his many university trips that he could have had worm damage, as apparently we were told he was put out to pasture for a year or two and was skin and bones. But I do not think that the university actually stated this. All that was stated when he was scoped and tested for many many many many different things was the cause for this colic and diareahha is undetermined, exploratory surgery is your next option, the only thing we can tell you is he does not have ulcers (even though many people were willing to bet money that he did! The old vet even had us do an ulcer treatment). In regards to him looking wormy, he is very odd, he will always gain weight down first and then every where else, another time when he was not being fed enough at an old barn he did the same thing when he gained weight again, I always thought he looked wormy in a sense when he goes through that stage, but i have been there when he is wormed (and he is wormed more now then he was when he was a show horse)

Our thoughts were that the weight loss was co-related to the pain, especially when he wasn't putting any back on, it was so hard to see him in that way. We did have him on bute for a little however with his stomach issues we were afraid to over use it and cause stomach ulcers, when he went on adequan he had an allergic reaction which was one of the worst things we had to deal with for him. The new vet is reluctant to give him cortisone as she does not want him to cause more damage to the joints because he feels too good. We have him on glucosamine injections, and he is on Recovery Eq and msm.

We at this point do not care if we can ever ride him again, or if he is stuck in a pasture for the rest of his life, we just as everyone says do not want to wait too long and allow him to suffer.

He has also been tested for lyme which did come back negative. If that means anything to any one.

The vet said our next option would be to take him to a university however she said that she is not sure what else they could really do, especially in regards to the arthritis, and since the last thing the vets said to us at the university is exploratory surgery, and I do not think I am willing to put him through that.

I never saw him lying down much at all, the BO tells me when he does because she worries for the colic, and she says he doesn't lie down all that much.

We are definitely thinking about this and considering all options, we knew without the weight there was no way it would be right to keep him through the winter. But now he seems to have calmed down, a little from his mood change, and I see improvement in his weight, and just simply him in general. I do not know though, I really need to go up and spend a week there and make my decision that way I guess.

[sdlbredfan]

If he does indeed have arthritis (did Vet ever tell you exactly which joints are affected!?), then you want the horse to be slightly underweight, never overweight. That is because excess weight worsens the load on joints, literally. I hope you will get another Vet's opinion, or consider moving the horse to someplace where it is easier for you to check on him more often. Good luck, and as others have said, keep us posted!

[Fharoah]

With the colic and weight loss is there any chance he has colitis? Have you tried gastroguard to see if he improves.

Went through a two year lameness myself. Basically two years rest and rehabilitation for collateral ligament desmitis my gelding makes it two an intermittent 1/5 basically occasional shorter step. He then regressed, diagnosed with mild ringbone the collateral ligament is still the suspected problem. After joint injections and IRAP with extended rest failed we decided to arthrodese his pastern joint. We are really hoping he will be sound in a year!

I think it depends on how much you can realistically spend to "try" and make him comfortable and if it is achievable.

If he were my horse based on what you have said, I would do a panacur powerpack. I may try a no sugar no grain balanced high fat diet with alfalfa, a cup a day of ground flax will help coat the stomach and has antiflammatory effect. I would try daily gastroguard and field bord with at least 12 hours a day field turnout but 24/7 may be ideal, make sure you have an excellent farrier. I would inject his arthritic joints with either steroid HA, IRAP, or tildren. Keep him blanketed, give him monthly adequan, put him on conequin ASU loading dose or MSU, do a course of equioxx and see if he improves with field time.

If the quality of life is lost then the kindest thing you can do is let him go. I would probablly give the horse a year of of as much turnout of possible, with a much maintenance as you can afford

Best Wishes, I am so sorry!

[FancyASB]

I've had great results with BL Pellets yucca and devils claw, etc for pain management, no tummy problems. Exactly you want to have him lean, that's why I'm on a diet better for your joints. I use good old fashion Ben Gay and it feels soooooooooo good, something like that would feel good to him for his joints. I also use those heat patches. Best of luck!!!!

[Auventera Two]

I'm with Thomas... it's sounds like there is far more going on with your horse than you have chipped at the surface.

I agree with this too.

There is a LOT I'd be doing if this were my horse.

First of all, get another veterinary opinion.

Next, arthritis is very manageable with the proper husbandry and drugs. That means, NO STALL. Turn the horse out 24/7 with a shelter. Use something like Boomer's hock socks or even shipping boots on really cold/damp days to keep the warmth in the joints. Use Back on Track products, they are fantastic. Drugs like bute, asprin, surpass, adequan, legend, msm, and hyaluraoninc acid are all excellent tools for managing arthritis, and maybe some of the herbals too. Devil's claw, yucca, etc.

One of my horses has hock arthritis and if I manage her properly, she is perfectly sound and usable. People think I'm nuts to be out there at 5 a.m. putting shipping boots on a horse in the pasture. But you know what, it HELPS her significantly. She wears her Boomers hock socks half of the winter too. She's not asked to do anything resembling performance, but she's comfortable and happy and does a lot of trail riding. In fact, the MORE she's used, the more comfortable she is. Nothing hurts arthritis suffers than being sedentary.

As for the colicking, could this be related to stalling, and just plain ole' stress? When something is stressing me out, I'm unable to eat and I get sick to my stomach. Why can't horses do the same? Who says there has to be an ulcer or worms to cause this? Again, TURN THE HORSE OUT! Put him in a field with blankets if he needs them, and a shelter. Let him life a normal horsey life. Horses colic and lose weight when they're stressed and/or depressed.

I'm not normally a "all natural" type of horse keeper - mine are stalled 12 hrs a day in the winter, but in certain instances, I think the most natural or "free" lifestyle as possible for awhile is certainly worth a try.

If it were my horse, this would be the starting point for me.

[pj]

I've always wondered how a horse no one can ride is more expensive than a horse that can be ridden. As soon as they are unrideable does the BO increase the board?

:) Now I was going to say that!! I've always wondered about that, too.

[sansibar]

I agree with this too.

There is a LOT I'd be doing if this were my horse.

First of all, get another veterinary opinion.

Next, arthritis is very manageable with the proper husbandry and drugs. That means, NO STALL. Turn the horse out 24/7 with a shelter. Use something like Boomer's hock socks or even shipping boots on really cold/damp days to keep the warmth in the joints. Use Back on Track products, they are fantastic. Drugs like bute, asprin, surpass, adequan, legend, msm, and hyaluraoninc acid are all excellent tools for managing arthritis, and maybe some of the herbals too. Devil's claw, yucca, etc.

One of my horses has hock arthritis and if I manage her properly, she is perfectly sound and usable. People think I'm nuts to be out there at 5 a.m. putting shipping boots on a horse in the pasture. But you know what, it HELPS her significantly. She wears her Boomers hock socks half of the winter too. She's not asked to do anything resembling performance, but she's comfortable and happy and does a lot of trail riding. In fact, the MORE she's used, the more comfortable she is. Nothing hurts arthritis suffers than being sedentary.

As for the colicking, could this be related to stalling, and just plain ole' stress? When something is stressing me out, I'm unable to eat and I get sick to my stomach. Why can't horses do the same? Who says there has to be an ulcer or worms to cause this? Again, TURN THE HORSE OUT! Put him in a field with blankets if he needs them, and a shelter. Let him life a normal horsey life. Horses colic and lose weight when they're stressed and/or depressed.

I'm not normally a "all natural" type of horse keeper - mine are stalled 12 hrs a day in the winter, but in certain instances, I think the most natural or "free" lifestyle as possible for awhile is certainly worth a try.

If it were my horse, this would be the starting point for me.


The horse is on 24/7 turnout, he is in a smaller pasture ( i think it is only 2 acres in comparison to the 10-20 acre ones) as he does run around too much and then comes to the gait with a nice swollen knee and a limp the next day.

The colic in question has settled down he has not *touch wood* coliced in a year, as well he has not had diareahha since we switched him to 24/7 turnout after the suspensory injury. We did believe that it was co-related with stress and the drastic changes in diet he did go through at one point (without my knowledge)...

He is on purina senior, as well as finishing touch, with hay cubes (for his joint supplements) he is also on omega alpha immune boost, and a supplement for his stomach. I will definatly look into getting him some yucca.

Thats a really good idea with the shipping boots, I will definatly go pick up an extra pair of those. For the back on track 3/4 legs would need the joint wraps should i just get all 4 then? Just wondering if it is like wrapping the legs.

The worst of his arthritis is in his front knee, and his two hocks are almost as bad.

Also presently we have been unable to do his feet as he has been unmangeable (he does not believe humans should control him *joy*, even though he is handled every day, this happened around the same time as when he started losing weight not sure if that has an affect), but we are getting him tranqed this week to get his feet done.

When I get onto my laptop I will upload a photo of the knee, it is looking rough, I'll see if I can find a before and after photo of it.

[Oakstable]

I put down a two-year-old for quality of life issues.

A tree branch came down close to his pen and he tried to escape the pen and did permanent damage to his neck.

I had a chiro work on him as best he could but the youngster could not have a normal quality of life so we put him down.

Get a second opinion and feel okay about it if it is the humane thing to do.

[Watermark Farm]

I have a young horse (8) who has a similar history, problem after problem, and now pasture sound only after a neurectomy.

My vet was helpful, he said to make a list of all the things my horse likes to do (pasture, run, play, eat, etc.) and can do comfortably. Put this list away and review it from time to time. When the time comes that my horse is not able to do all these things, and his qualify of life is diminished, and the bad days start to outnumber the good, I will know it's time to put him down.

Good luck, and I'm so sorry. What a heartache for you. I'm glad you are good people who will see your horse through thick and thin. Not everyone is like that.

[sansibar]

Here are photos of his knee the first one is the most recent one.

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r461/sansibarsby/DSC_0039.jpg
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r461/sansibarsby/GetAttachmentaspx1.jpg
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r461/sansibarsby/GetAttachmentaspx.jpg

[Roxyllsk]

I would definitely get another vet's opinion, just to settle your mind about this.

How much do you trust the BO where he lives now ? I had issues with a farm that told me my horse was scared and ran around all the time (he was blind). Turns out that this was not true, and they just were tired of dealing with a handicapped horse that was more work than the other retirees. I would stop out and just watch him at odd times for several weeks, as would several of my friends, and none of us saw any of the behavior they were describing to me. I ended up moving him to another farm and he lived a happy, comfortable life for several more years.

If you trust the BO, by all means listen to what she has to say. But getting another vet's opinion, or visiting your horse on his 'bad' days wouldn't hurt anything either.

It's never an easy decision to make, whatever age they are.

[Samigator]

sorry I have not read all the replies here. . . but my first thought when I looked at the pictures is that he looks wormy- in almost every one of them. Worms can cause colic, diarrhea, anemia, and of course lethargy. . . and if a horse isn't feeling that great, it's a lot harder for them to hide the symptoms of some otherwise minor underlying arthritis. Arthritis in itself does not deem a horse unuseable unless they're in too much pain from it to walk.

what are you feeding him? Haybelly comes to mind too. . .

I'd get another opinion from a different reputable vet in your area before putting him down. He's too nice a horse to jump to that decision without investigating.

But in the end, it really comes down to how much you want to spend on him, and will it pay out in the end? Would the money for all the vet work be better spent on a new young prospect?

[tpup]

I too would get a second opinion. If he's "running around" some, his quality of life cannot be that bad. My horse is arthritic - he has good days and bad. Previcox has greatly increased his quality of life - granted he doesn't have the other issues you mentioned, but Previcox is easy on the belly (my horse had ulcers - we've had zero issues on Previcox now for almost a year). If he were mine I'd keep trying. You've gotten alot of other good suggestions too.

[Tilly]

My personal "stop" point is when the horse is in pain that is not manageable or when there is no hope of recovery or improvement.
<snip>


I completely agree with this. I'm sorry, OP, that you have to make this decision.

[joiedevie99]

I would try him on MSM, Yucca, and Devil's Claw. They are all natural anti-inflammatories and seem to help some horses. They are also very cheap to buy. Only way to know if yours is one is to try it.

I've also had luck with Back on Track products with arthritis. I think they make a knee wrap. If you get lucky and it doesn't cause any rubs, you could just leave it on for a while and see if it makes a difference.

Also, ditto the second opinion.

[Fharoah]

I think I would inject his hock and inject his knee, add alfalfa, beet pulp and flax and keep him warm. Tranq him and get his feet right and see what happens. Also you may try rubbing surpass on his knee daily.

[Nicki's Mom]

Your post caught my eye as I am dealing with the same question.

I have a 7 yo TB that I bought at age 3. Starting jumping at age 4. Very talented, great personality. I had high hopes. Then he went lame. I spent the next two years going to different vets trying to figure out his problem. He was lame on his left hind though none of diagnostics revealed anything that could possibly make him so lame (3/5). Finally last fall he had a full body bone scan which revealed a lot of arthritis at the base of his neck. The vet believes to have that much arthritis at age 7, he must of had an injury as a foal. I think the jumping must have jarred his neck enough to cause more bone remodeling and most likely permanently lame. I did inject his neck, but it didn't do much.
I have spent the last year just walking and trotting in hopes I can get him sound enough to find him a home, but no luck. My vet recently said her only suggestions are to inject his neck and hock again, but since that didn't do much the first time, was it really worth it. So I can totally sympathize with you.
Your guy seems pretty content and I agree with most of the other posters, that if there is quality of life then let him continue. You really will notice if he is in a lot of pain. My guy too will some days run around like a race horse and then pay for it the next day(s). I have decided to let him enjoy his life. He likes to be ridden and loved, so that's what I do with him. I like the suggestion of making a list and then checking it from time to time. It can't hurt to try all the things the others have suggested. Who knows one might work. I still give my guy chiro twice a month and a massage once a month. I am going to try myofascial release and the Back on Track stuff. I agree that a positive attitude is very important, but I have a hard time with that as I had such hopes and am so frustrated with where he ended up.
Much luck and jingles. You are not alone and your horse is very lucky to have found someone who loves him and will take care of him.

[EqTrainer]

The outside of a joint can look really ugly and the inside look fine. What is in that knee? Are you *sure* there are no chips?

Truly.. I would send this horse somewhere that he will be actively managed.. the whole picture. As A2 says, turnout will be very important but so will maintaining his feet carefully, figuring out what is in the knee/dealing w/it, feeding him better (he seems to have ranged from looking like a metabolic pony to a very skinny horse, which makes me wonder if he is IR) - if you want to give him a chance it really will require attention to all the details.

It sounds like you are a junior? It's tough when you are, and you have a horse that you love, but no control over what is happening. I really hope you find somewhere/someone to sort this out.

[sansibar]

I do trust the BO at this barn a great deal, the horse does run I do see it occasionally when I go up, I have seen him jump fences to get to certain horses while he has been here he definitely is as active as she states. She has been sending me updates everyday, and takes way too good care for him, and puts up with all of his crap. Especially since I am a full time university student so him being any closer really wouldn't be of too much good since I realistically have no free time other than on the weekends which are dedicated to him, and the other horses I ride.

He has no worms we have had countless fecal tests and blood tests done, and he has shown up clear on each one of them.

I will not directly inject the joint as the last time he had a horrible reaction to the injection and his entire leg swell up, it was quite scary.

All that is in the knee is a bone spur, the vet who did the PPE said it was in a place that would never effect the movement or anything (haha apparently not....), there are no chips, he was x-rayed around the time the photos were taken and it showed arthritis and the spur (which I believe is supposed to be the lump closest to the inside of his leg).

The vet is looking into alternative treatments/pain relievers for him that will not effect his stomach as bute does. And I am going out this weekend to buy him the back on track boots and an extra set of shipping boots for him.

I am not 100% sure on everything he is getting since he is getting a lot of food and I can never remember, i know he is on hay cubes, purina senior, a round bale, finishing touch, macintosh intensive care gi., msm, recovery eq, flax, probiotics, omega alpha immune boost... there is a lot lol.

We will definitely be getting another set of x-rays done on him before any decision is made.

Ya we will not give up on him as he has done so much for me, he was probably the best horse I will ever get to ride, he had so much power and the biggest heart, he never understood the concept of refusing. We won't be buying another horse after him until we have our own farm in a hew years, my parents mostly don't wan to put me through the emotional stress we went through with him, and they don't think they can afford to put another horse out to pasture if we end up having another unlucky experience.

[Fharoah]

Perhaps his hock injections went wrong the first time. I would inject his hocks and knees with IRAP, or adequan, supported with IM adequan, take him to a good vet hospital or unniversity to do it. If you are unwilling to inject his arthritic joints it is unlikely he will become comfortable enough to have a good quality of life. It is possible he reacted to a certain steroid or something in that injection, I would have him injected by a different vet with something else. Some horses are sensitive to depomedrol, From CSU Triamcinolone acetate (Vetalog)--Work at the CSU Orthopaedic Research Laboratory showed no negative effects and an increase in the synthesis of essential articular cartilage elements. Triamcinolone acetate might be chondroprotective (protective of the cartilage).If you injected with depomedrol last time you may want to reconsider injecting with triamicinolone Sometimes injecting a couple of times will settle the inflammation down and horse will remain comfortable and can be maintaned on legend and adequan and oral antiflammatories for a long time.

You may want to consider alfalfa as it acts as a stomach buffer and will help with his weight.

If he were mine I would take him to a very reputable lameness specialist for a second opinion, poor your heart out and trust in there recommendations. There are many arthritic horses out there that are pasture sound or happy with light ridding and trails, you just have to try things and see what helps.

Best Wishes!

[EqTrainer]

Inject his knee w/Adequan.

[JWB]

There is a REGIONALLY produced supplement here in Florida that LOTS of us swear by. It's called E.L.M. (Equine Leg Magic)

Honestly, I cried MAJOR BS when it was suggested for my OLD lady. She sounded like a bowl of Rice Krispies every time she tried to move and was very stiff in the back end. These days she bucks and plays like you wouldn't believe. A friend's husband is also taking it and he says it helps him dramatically. I also fed it to our old dobie mix the final 18 months of her life. She NEVER seemed to be in pain once we started treatment however it didn't stop the muscle atrophy that eventually led to her being put down :(
http://www.equinelegmagic.net/

I've also heard fantastic things about OCD pellets but they're REALLY expensive.


Might be worth a try....

[candyappy]

I had a older TB mare that I rescued from near starvation. She was arthritic. She would not give up though. I had hopes of breeding her. After 8 months of love , light exercise and excellent food we tried to get her bred. It wasn't meant to be as we found she was unable to carry a foal because of a previous foaling injury. Some days she could hardly move, others she was better. She always had a light in her eyes and an appetite to match. In the end she choose for us, by laying down and dying on her own. When you see the look in his eyes change or a personality change then you will know. I would keep his weight down though.

[Arrows Endure]

Oh boy, have I been in your shoes. Recently. I just put down my 14 year old Paso for similar reasons. Here is my thought.

Looking at the range of pictures you've posted, and hearing his story, I think you need to get the horse tested for Insulin Resistance. In the "fat" picture, he looked cresty. In the "skinny" pictures, he looks wormy. Very classic for IR. Go to the Yahoo group Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance and follow their protocol for blood work...exactly. If he is IR, all the stuff he's getting is doing him more harm than good. IR affects everything, and can make a horse feel absolutly lousy for no reason, and will make any little problem he has (knee arthritis etc) seem like a big huge deal. Also the fact that he suddenly won't let you do his feet tells me his feet (or legs) HURT. That is a big symptom of pain.

As far as, when do you put them down? You need to sit down and speak with your horse. Is he comfortable? Is he happy? Is he able to do things he enjoys doing? A vet that I respect greatly once stated that she'd rather put a horse down one minute too early than one minute too late. There are much worse things than death. Your horse is a prey animal. When he gets to the point where he is unable to react to scary things like a prey animal should, then he is in constant stress. He knows that a mountain lion could jump out of tree any minute, and there is nothing he can do to get away. That is not fair to our horses.

If he were mine, I'd test for IR first, then act accordingly. It's quite possible (I know, I've watched it) that if he is IR, and you fix the diet, that a lot of his other small issues will just go away. Oh, and don't let anyone tell you that just because he's thin, he can't be IR!!!! An IR horse can't utilize feed as well, and in some instances they become rail thin.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[sansibar]

the university did test him for insulin resistance and he was perfectly normal..

I am weary about injections but I will consult the vet and see what she thinks about it all.

The only problem we are encountering now is the arthritis, we have hopefully found the solution to his weight, and his diarrhea and colic has been under control.

I am going shopping for him tomorrow and hopefully going to see him on Sunday.

[swmorse]

I can't give you any advice about whether or not to put him down, but, to try for the arthritis, go to www.springtimeinc.com (if the link doesn't work google springtime, it's a supplement company in Maryland or Delaware, can't rememberr which) and check out their products. I used Cartilage Concentrate for my TB which was great.

I was so impressed with how it worked on him, I order the people version for myself. And I can tell you now, since my finances don't allow me to continue with the supplement (and I've used it since the 80's) I am definately feeling the aches.

Just this past spring I put down an old TB mare (she was in her 30's) that had blown her knee out at the track, it looked like your picture, and quite a few years ago, she did something to her back legs, so finally she only had one good leg. When I had her on the CC, she was much improved.

She got to where she couldn't pick her feet up for the farrier anymore, she did loose weight over the winter, and since our Florida summers are so terrible, I put her down.

Anyway, check out the Cartilage concentrate.

good luck

[sansibar]

We went up to see him today and we realized that the spark was no longer there in his eyes, he looked like he was just there but not enjoying it. I also saw him resting his bad knee and not putting any weight on it at all. We also are unable to do his feet as he gets very unbalanced when tranqed, and we do not want him to fall on that knee. He simply is not happy, and clearly is in pain, even though he does try and hide it from us.

We also suspect something is going on internally with him, the vets at the university suggested some things that may develop down the road and we believe that some of those things have developed.

We decided to put him out in the 25 acre field with the other horses for a few weeks, and then we will put him down, unless a miracle happens.

And I think for all of those issues I feel have made the right decision, and that prolonging his pain will only be a selfish act on my part.

Some one said you can never put them down to early but it is the worst if you put them down a minute too late, and thats how I feel.

[Auventera Two]

But you're not going to try injecting the knee before you put him to sleep? :confused: I've seen injections work magic on horses. Totally lame, and practically non-weight bearing, go back to almost normal function and work. Seriously, it's not expensive, and I'd just give it one try before giving him the shot.

I'm not saying it's a bad decision to put him to sleep - only you and the horse truly know when its time. I'm just trying to throw out some kind of something that "might" help.

My mare was down, not getting up, she'd completely given up, and it seemed to be her time. I made the decision to go inside and call the vet right then and there. The vet told me to try taking her off a particular drug she was on (that was supposedly crucial for her soundness and continued life). As a last ditch effort, I took her off the drug, nursed her for another few days, and now she's back to her old self again. In fact, as soon as my schedule calms down in a few weeks, I'm putting her back under saddle.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do what you feel is right, I'm only saying that "maybe" the injections would help him. Good luck, and best thoughts for you and your boy :)

[1horseRachel]

Well good luck and Lots of Jingles coming your way! It is always sad when a young horse or any animal of that matter has to be put down.

[staceyk]

Let me count the ways.

Because horses that can be ridden usually have a condition that requires treatment, or lots of expensive tests, or maintenance. If you're lucky, the horse no one can ride can at least be turned out. And don't get me started on stall rest. Whoops, it's too late, here goes. With stall rest (post surgery in this case) you have

-- extra expense for a horse on stall rest that needs hand walking and bandaging assistance (and I feel lucky to have found a barn willing to DO it)
-- trailering to special farrier for special shoeing which is 3x the cost of regular shoeing
-- bandaging every other day with one 2 kinds of gauze, iodine gel, latex gloves, one entire roll vet wrap, 1/3 roll of elastikon, two layers of duct tape.
-- Getting up at 5am (an hour earlier than usual) 3 times a week to DO the bandaging and then go to my full time job.
The the cost of driving to the barn every single day, and occasionally twice a day, to check him, groom him, give him a break from the monotony of being stuck in a 12X12 stall
-- cost of xylazine for days he doesn't feel like being bandaged, probiotics to protect his stomach, no starch food so he doesn't climb the walls

A casual acquaintance naively made a comment that having him on stall rest would let me take a break from his care. Far from it! I'm exhausted from trying to keep him healthy while he's recovering.

I suppose I'm hijacking the thread a little, but the suggestion that an unrideable horse is not more expensive assumes that no one cares if he is unrideable. Usually when a horse can't be ridden you spend a lot of time and money trying to fix that.

[sansibar]

But you're not going to try injecting the knee before you put him to sleep? :confused: I've seen injections work magic on horses. Totally lame, and practically non-weight bearing, go back to almost normal function and work. Seriously, it's not expensive, and I'd just give it one try before giving him the shot.

I'm not saying it's a bad decision to put him to sleep - only you and the horse truly know when its time. I'm just trying to throw out some kind of something that "might" help.

My mare was down, not getting up, she'd completely given up, and it seemed to be her time. I made the decision to go inside and call the vet right then and there. The vet told me to try taking her off a particular drug she was on (that was supposedly crucial for her soundness and continued life). As a last ditch effort, I took her off the drug, nursed her for another few days, and now she's back to her old self again. In fact, as soon as my schedule calms down in a few weeks, I'm putting her back under saddle.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do what you feel is right, I'm only saying that "maybe" the injections would help him. Good luck, and best thoughts for you and your boy :)

we thought about this and talked to the vet, we decided it would not be worth it, as he is so sensitive to everything that the smallest cut will swell him up like a balloon, the last time we injected his hocks, we saw no change using adequan and legend, but what did happen was he swelled up and had a reaction to adequan and was put on stall rest for several weeks. I refuse to put him back in a stall as he does try and actually kill himself in there.

I think this is best as I want him to enjoy the next few weeks in pasture before the winter comes, where he would be at high risk to slip on ice and go down.

[Arrows Endure]

You know, it's a tough decision, but good for you. You are doing the right thing by taking the horses happiness and comfort and putting it first in your heart and mind.

I had more than one person try to second guess my decision to put Alpine down, and it seems I spent a lot of time defending myself against those people. I understand those people are just wanting to save ME from the hurt of putting my friend down, but they just don't understand how much it hurt me to have to defend myself constantly, especially when I was sure the decision was the right one. Don't let those people get to you! You are the horses owner and friend, and they don't know all the factors that are going into the decision.

Need someone to talk to, drop me a PM....

[Woodland]

sansibar you have done all you can. No one should try to make you feel bad about Your decision! (((hugs)))

[GrayCatFarm]

Its all about the quality of their life. Hugs to you on this difficult decision.

[saddleup]

I'm just so sorry.

[SonnysMom]

How about for the next couple of weeks while he is turned out you try Previcoxx? It seems to be working well for my gelding. It is a small pill 1x per day.

[Auventera Two]

Previcoxx is a great suggestion. I trim a DSLD horse who is on Previcoxx and she's doing really well on it.

[ChocoMare]

I've been following this and, for what it's worth, I agree that you're doing the right thing, albeit the hard thing.

I've been there/done that. You read all the suggestions, all the "Why don't you try this? hints, all the medical stuff and even the totally outside-the-box things. You then "try" everything under the sun----every pill, injection, herbal concoction and voodoo, BUT in your heart of hearts, you know the end result will still be the same--except the horse has had to endure all the pain and discomfort :(

Because the bottom line is this: YOU KNOW this horse. YOU see him every day. YOU are entrusted with his care and only YOU can make the decision.

A nice day, lots of treats, good scritches and then, a dignified and pain-free passing. This it be right. :cry:

[craz4crtrs]

I've been following this and, for what it's worth, I agree that you're doing the right thing, albeit the hard thing.

I've been there/done that. You read all the suggestions, all the "Why don't you try this? hints, all the medical stuff and even the totally outside-the-box things. You then "try" everything under the sun----every pill, injection, herbal concoction and voodoo, BUT in your heart of hearts, you know the end result will still be the same--except the horse has had to endure all the pain and discomfort :(

Because the bottom line is this: YOU KNOW this horse. YOU see him every day. YOU are entrusted with his care and only YOU can make the decision.

A nice day, lots of treats, good scritches and then, a dignified and pain-free passing. This it be right. :cry:


I agree. I just had to put my 25 yr old arabian gelding down 10 days ago. It was brutal. I've had to put horses down without any options, but this was planned, even though I knew he wouldn't last long any way.

He was a Cushings horse that went neurological. He went blind and had ataxia. It became very painful for him, must have been a terrible headache. I started giving him 4 gms a bute a day and he improved, but for how long? I consulted two vets, and the vet that came out had known this horse for the 11 years I had had him. I know she was prepared to put him down for me, but I also knew she would tell me not to do if it wasn't time.

My horse would just stare off into the distance like he was watching something, even though mostly blind, no tracking of his eyes at all. When I pushed his hips side to side, he just wobbled. When I turned him partially to head out to his "spot", he almost fell. My vet friend got tears in her eyes and said its time.

I could have upped his pergolide, put him on stall rest (which he goes nuts on), but he was obviously progressing very rapidly with his ataxia and in pain. I did what was best and it hurt terribly. I still hurt terribly, but he is buried out in our back pasture with 3 other buddies and happy.

Do what is best for him, you will know the right time because he will tell you.

Hugs.

[alteringwego]

very sad- just jingling for you

[LovelyBay]

I think you are doing the right thing. Not the easiest thing, but the best for you and the horse. There are fates worse that death.

[arabhorse2]

Sansibar, no advice or suggestions. Just wanted to let you know that you're in my thoughts.

It's tough to let them go, but tougher to watch them suffer.

You do what's right for your horse and yourself. The naysayers can go pound sand.

[winegum]

Oh...I am so sorry to hear this. How awful for you and I know you have a horrible decision to make.

First of all: You should never let yourself regret your decision. If you put him down, that was the call you made when you felt it needed to be made. You are considering the option of putting him down because you are worried about his quality of life while he is in his condition and you are worried about providing for him while he is in this condition. A sick his is a large expense and you have proven to have paid your fair share!

If you opt not to put him down, can you ensure him a life free of stress, pain and discomfort. The answer is probably 'no', because as mortals we simply cannot provide that for anyone or anything.

Euthanasia is humane and as long as you are using it under the same circumstances.

The only bump in your decision would be to ask yourself if your horse is happy with the way life is going for him now. Only you, as the horse owner, can answer this since you competed so soundly with him and know what he loved. Would he enjoy a limited life?

Whatever your decision is, you must also remember that animals don't take death the same way as people do. We think death cuts our life short, but animals don't think that way. They have a broader and more accepting understanding and they know things are essentially better in death.

[arabhorse2]

They have a broader and more accepting understanding and they know things are essentially better in death.

Most of your post was spot on, but I don't agree with this.

Animals have no sense of mortality, so how would they 'know' things are better in death?

They live in the moment, and if the moment is nothing but pain and suffering, that's all they know. Not that being dead would be better.

[Roxyllsk]

So sorry to hear this. But you did everything you could to try and help him live a comfortable life. Thoughts & prayers are with you ...

[spaghetti legs]

You're doing the right thing.

*soft hug*

[Watermark Farm]

I'm so sorry. I've made the same kind of decision before and know it's not done lightly. Sometimes, you're both done....the horse and you.

BTW, I have a rescue horse with horrid knees. I keep them injected because this horse deserves the few years I can give him to replace the many he was abused. It's definitely not cheap --- $500 every 9 months. Sometime you just have to say enough is enough.

I honor you for seeing your horse through to a humane end. That's really all any horse can wish for.

[sansibar]

So my horse is still alive, we decided to hold off on putting him down because putting him out in a big field has done wonders for him now. He is happy as can be and SOUND! his knee looks big but not so lumpy, and his weight has kept on fine.

And my dad and I have agreed to give him the winter to be and then comes the spring we are having him fully re-evaluated, x-rays, ultra sounds all that jazz, so we can lay out all treatment options and figure out a way to treat him. Like I said in there, he has pretty much always been sound through all of this, and then within a 3 month time period he seemed to go down hill. So I am not sure what happened that arthritis went from mild-mid to severe-crippling that fast, since he lived in a pasture and was not being ridden.

We'll see though, he looked really good this week. :)

[Lulu]

You made my day!

[Zu Zu]

Good news ~ glad he is feeling better ~ Jingles for both of you !

[gold2012]

Also, I don't know, and I know this is old and you might not get it, but I always thought that if you put an arthritic horse in a stall for confinement, it was wrong. Don't they usually do better moving about? I am sad to say I cut to the end to see what happened, but it seems that if you put him in a pasture, and he did get better, makes it seem like sense. I had ah orse that was REALLY arhtritic, as in, they told me to put him down....easy for them to say. But I didn't want him to suffer, so I put him on "ICHOD", I think that's how it is spelled, it is a generic HA and Glucosamine injectable, and then started LIGHTLY riding him, bareback and all. HE was awesome 3 months later, and now is 21 and still doing well on the injections and light work by some kids.

[Bluey]

I would say how a horse responds to knee problems, therapy and management would depend on what is wrong with it's knees.

Since horses live with 2/3 of their weight on their front end most of the time, that their knees are fairly sound is important for their quality of life.

[sketcher]

So my horse is still alive, we decided to hold off on putting him down because putting him out in a big field has done wonders for him now. He is happy as can be and SOUND! his knee looks big but not so lumpy, and his weight has kept on fine.

And my dad and I have agreed to give him the winter to be and then comes the spring we are having him fully re-evaluated, x-rays, ultra sounds all that jazz, so we can lay out all treatment options and figure out a way to treat him. Like I said in there, he has pretty much always been sound through all of this, and then within a 3 month time period he seemed to go down hill. So I am not sure what happened that arthritis went from mild-mid to severe-crippling that fast, since he lived in a pasture and was not being ridden.

We'll see though, he looked really good this week. :)

Some horses don't do well in pasture during fly season. I've seen a few horses that had not been used to being turned out lose condition very quickly when turned out. I was thinking this from the beginning of your thread, especially when your descriptions which lead one to believe you are relatively uninvolved on a daily basis with your horses care. I'm not saying uninvolved in a bad way, you certainly seem like you have been willing to provide him with the best of whatever he needs - but what if your BO isn'lt so attentive about the pasture horses? aI thought pastuer turnout probably wasn;t the problme after reading through almost everything until this last post that says he is doing better in the pasture now. The weather has changed. No bugs, weeds are dead. This may sound nutso but I have food allergies and for some of them my sypmtoms are athritis like flares. Any relation you think?

[sansibar]

Some horses don't do well in pasture during fly season. I've seen a few horses that had not been used to being turned out lose condition very quickly when turned out. I was thinking this from the beginning of your thread, especially when your descriptions which lead one to believe you are relatively uninvolved on a daily basis with your horses care. I'm not saying uninvolved in a bad way, you certainly seem like you have been willing to provide him with the best of whatever he needs - but what if your BO isn'lt so attentive about the pasture horses? aI thought pastuer turnout probably wasn;t the problme after reading through almost everything until this last post that says he is doing better in the pasture now. The weather has changed. No bugs, weeds are dead. This may sound nutso but I have food allergies and for some of them my sypmtoms are athritis like flares. Any relation you think?


To clear up about the stall / turnout thing he has not been in a stall since he tore the suspensory and was off for a while in 2008, he was put into restricted smaller paddocks ussually with a few other horses so he would not run around and butcher his knee/drop the weight. :S

Ya i think it could be related to something a long the lines of what you are saying about the seasons. I am not sure it had to do with flies as we had him covered head to toe when the flies were bad. Because it just seems weird that his arthritis got so bad so fast over the spring-summer. And a lot of his issues have when I have my birthday (aug.1) hmmm. It is something to think about for sure.

I was doing readings that they may have found an experimental solution for arthritis and stem cells, so maybe that will be an option by the time we re evaluate him ;) I can pray for that. If not I think we are going to do something to hopefully make him sound for something (im at least hoping just a walking horse for my dad to sit on). If not I really don't mind him being pasture sound at least.

[ivy62]

I just found this thread, and I was ready to cry but you made my day! :-) If he does well and your okay with him as a pasture ornament then so be it....Allergies are something I owuld check into also...
Keep us up to date on your boy....