Critique Without Photos

[Bobblehead]

I’d like to get some objective opinions about the work I’ve been doing with my horse for the past year. I don’t have photos available, but I’ll try to give a good verbal picture. It will be long, though. Holding my breath - hope people are understanding - here goes.

Background: Bought this QH mare as a very safe, quiet 3-year-old 4 years ago at a very insecure time in my riding life. In her 4th and 5th years she was used as a beginner lesson horse and I rode her mostly hunter seat and on trails. Last fall she soured out of the lesson program, and my instructor said this lazy but intelligent horse needed more challenge. At that time my goals for her were:
- instill forwardness
- get her off her forehand
- dependable right lead in canter
- straighten

Over the year, we had some bumps. Poor saddle fit took several weeks to resolve. Then, from April to August she was tenderfooted. That finally got resolved about a month ago. I’ve had regular weekly lessons, about 75% dressage and the rest hunter (I do like jumping) and ride at least 3 times a week. I’ve never shown above training level.

At this point, the first two goals are no longer an issue as long as I remember to ask for them! (Yeah, sometimes I don’t do everything I know how to do.) The canter leads are absolutely dependable on the lunge and 90% of the time in a hunter frame, but in dressage work they’re still unreliable. I know this must be me. Straightness is greatly improved, but we’re not 100% there yet.

Here’s the best “functional” picture I can give of her.
Halt – Very stable and square.
Walk – Still needs some warmup time to get energized, but then will track up.
Trot – Her best gait. Can do a nice medium. Working on extended a little bit.
Canter – Developing some real bounce, but still tends to lean especially to the right. Does have a higher gear, but not an extension yet. 20 meter circle is the smallest we do.
Transitions – Halt-walk and walk-trot are very good. Trot-canter is usually above the bit. All downwards are about the same, pretty smooth, not falling on her face like she used to, but could use a little more impulsion. Trot-walk is probably her weakest.
Shoulder in – Good for several steps, but not show quality yet.
Haunches in – Actually seems better than SI.
TOH – MUCH improved after we fixed the foot problem, and even more so when I realized 2 weeks ago that using my own core was the key I’d been missing.
Leg yield – Excellent, I think she finds this easy.
Self-carriage – Needs some warmup and then firm riding, but then will produce.

I feel like we’re at a plateau right now, but looking back it seems we’ve accomplished a fair amount. This mare will never go high in dressage, but she’s a much pleasanter ride now. An old instructor who hadn’t seen her in a year complimented me recently profusely on the difference she saw.

I’m not asking for advice on how to achieve specific things. What I’d like to know is, considering the amount I ride and the weekly lessons, is this a lot to achieve in one year, a normal amount, or should she have even come further? The canter leads are my big issue right now, but obviously I’ll keep working on all the other stuff. I know you can’t really tell anything without seeing us, but I’ve tried to be as realistic as possible.

[angel]

Each person is different, just as each horse is different. It is impossible to say if your progress has been average, above or below.

There were two things in your post that concerned me: 1) not having good canter leads established yet; 2)needing a "firm" warm-up.

To say to me she needs a "firm warm-up" tells me she is not reaching into the bit. It might feel okay afterwards to you, but what you are really doing is teaching her to be in a frame. Popping the trot to canter transition is both about her lack of correct contact as well as your lack of understanding the balance difference between riding trot and riding canter. In other words, you are trying to create it with your hands...again a frame rather than a true contact.

If you cannot ride canter on a smaller than 20-meter circle yet, there is no way in hell she is ready to be asked to attempt shoulder-in or traver, though I might be somewhat on the fence about what I just said about traver. But, shoulder-in requires collection, and she is not collectable yet.

I can tell you that you are not having the mistakes in your own body position corrected. We can only really pin-point the problems if we have pictures. If you decide to try to get some, please stay close to the camera so that your image takes up 3/4ths of the frame, and wear a color of pants other than black.

[slc2]

"functional picture I can give you"
It's impossible to really tell anything from a verbal description. Impossible. How it feels to you can be very different from how it looks to someone else. It really needs pictures - videos if you really want to give a more accurate picture, though the BEST help you can get is from a trained instructor who is there in person and watching you and your horse and how you react to each other over the entire ride. Even a video can't do that.

Halt – Very stable and square.
It depends on what happens before and into the halt, and if the horse just lands square or has to be evened up and 'adjusted' after its forward motion stops.

Walk – Still needs some warmup time to get energized, but then will track up.
No, the walk should be energized and marching from the first step, and that's a rider thing. Tracking up isn't sufficient in some forms of walk, where it should do more than track up, in other forms of walk (collected) it would not be expected or be good.

Trot – Her best gait. Can do a nice medium. Working on extended a little bit.
Extended trot is something that is inappropriate to be working on when the horse is not picking up its canter leads under saddle reliably yet. Nor is the medium trot, not even a lengthening. Before any of these things can be worked on legitimately the horse has to be picking up both canter leads. If a horse can't be positioned sufficiently to pick up its leads reliably, it can't be positioned to do a medium or extended trot. A little bit of lengthening might help the rider to get his horse more connected here and there, but I can't figure the logic of working on medium (2nd level) and extended trot (Third level) before picking up the canter (training level) is resolved.

Canter – Developing some real bounce, but still tends to lean especially to the right. Does have a higher gear, but not an extension yet. 20 meter circle is the smallest we do.
The leaning has to be fixed before other work. I'm not sure what a 'higher gear' or 'bounce' means.

Transitions – Halt-walk and walk-trot are very good. Trot-canter is usually above the bit. All downwards are about the same, pretty smooth, not falling on her face like she used to, but could use a little more impulsion. Trot-walk is probably her weakest.
There is no sense in practicing trot canter transitions if the trot walk transitions are not there. There is no sense in evaluating how the lateral work is if if the trot canter transition is noticeably above the bit. I don't know how to say it without hurting your feelings and I would hate to do that...but...your training, or perhaps just how you describe yiour training, I hope, isn't following a sensible progression. I think your instructor will guide yiou not only how to fix things, but what to work on first and next will help you.

Shoulder in – Good for several steps, but not show quality yet.
No shoulder in until the other more fundamental things are addressed.

Haunches in – Actually seems better than SI.
Ditto as with shoulder in.

TOH – MUCH improved after we fixed the foot problem, and even more so when I realized 2 weeks ago that using my own core was the key I’d been missing.
Ditto as with shoulder in.

Leg yield – Excellent, I think she finds this easy.

Self-carriage – Needs some warmup and then firm riding, but then will produce.
Not sure what 'firm riding' means but it scares me...LOL. 'Self carriage', defined specifically (uberstreichen) is not developed til around third level, and with the other problems going on, it is not appropriate to be thinking about it in that sense. But...a very rudimentary form of self carriage begins right with training level - not leaning heavily on the reins, a little bit of straightening work, an effort to have the horse swing his back, reach for the bit, bend, these will become self carriage later. They cannot be there until other things are there.

I feel like we’re at a plateau right now, but looking back it seems we’ve accomplished a fair amount. This mare will never go high in dressage, but she’s a much pleasanter ride now. An old instructor who hadn’t seen her in a year complimented me recently profusely on the difference she saw.
What I try to do, is to be content and satisfied, but never get too excited about praise. I try to be neutral. I consider that if I don't see progress I need to change what I'm doing, but not get either too down OR too up. It's a long journey, so I try not to ride a roller coaster.

I’m not asking for advice on how to achieve specific things. What I’d like to know is, considering the amount I ride and the weekly lessons, is this a lot to achieve in one year, a normal amount, or should she have even come further? The canter leads are my big issue right now, but obviously I’ll keep working on all the other stuff. I know you can’t really tell anything without seeing us, but I’ve tried to be as realistic as possible.

I really just can't tell and can't formulate a response to that question. For example, you talk about self carriage and shoulder in, turn on the haunches and haunches in, but can't pick up the leads all the time at the canter, and say the later transition is good but the trot walk one isn't. You don't mention doing any work on circles below 20 m, or how the 20 m circles are, or if the horse is bending correctly, what the suppleness is like or what sort of things you do for suppling your horse, how her back feels, how her contact feels....I just am totally confused - can't respond to the stated question. All I can offer is basic guidelines - read the dressage tests, and try to follow a systematic, progressive program, confirming the easier work, then moving to the next work, ask your instructor for guidance, don't try to skip over problems.

[goeslikestink]

I’d like to get some objective opinions about the work I’ve been doing with my horse for the past year. I don’t have photos available, but I’ll try to give a good verbal picture. It will be long, though. Holding my breath - hope people are understanding - here goes.

Background: Bought this QH mare as a very safe, quiet 3-year-old 4 years ago at a very insecure time in my riding life. In her 4th and 5th years she was used as a beginner lesson horse and I rode her mostly hunter seat and on trails. Last fall she soured out of the lesson program, and my instructor said this lazy but intelligent horse needed more challenge. At that time my goals for her were:
- instill forwardness
- get her off her forehand
- dependable right lead in canter
- straighten


if the horse is lazy or sharp your aids need to quicker

Over the year, we had some bumps. Poor saddle fit took several weeks to resolve. Then, from April to August she was tenderfooted. That finally got resolved about a month ago. I’ve had regular weekly lessons, about 75% dressage and the rest hunter (I do like jumping) and ride at least 3 times a week. I’ve never shown above training level.


i would re access your saddle fitment -- as dont know where you brought it from a saddle is surpose to fit the horse and fit you as a rider
and i would also re access the lameness issue as you dont say in either issue
what the back ground was
ie was the saddle custom made or did you just buy one of the internet
saddle dont just fit any horse they have and should have to be fitted
and they also need to be flocked at least once a year

check 0ut - the sticky above for my helpful links pages
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

read all of page 1 and all links
and also read thomas 1 mouthing and bitting thread
look here http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=223453

its all relevant

At this point, the first two goals are no longer an issue as long as I remember to ask for them! (Yeah, sometimes I don’t do everything I know how to do.) The canter leads are absolutely dependable on the lunge and 90% of the time in a hunter frame, but in dressage work they’re still unreliable. I know this must be me. Straightness is greatly improved, but we’re not 100% there yet.

your horse is 7 now i think, and you have her 4 yrs in this post above you say
i dont do everything i know how to do-------
mate if you dont do it correctly then your giving your horse mis match messages
and of course the horse will be confused aso to what to do
shes trying but your not sending her or giving her a clear direct signal

shes not going to be striaght and forwards if your not

check out how to alter your stirrups correctly in my helpful links pages as they efffect your position which your position effects the way of the horses going
also read this topic of simular case to you
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=224832




cant do canter unless you can walk -- old english saying dont run before you can walk
and that means all walk paces all trot
of which you should be using the half halt stride again its explained in my helpful links pages
this will also help the horse to come off the forehand as you will be working the horse from butt to polll to a relaxed yaw
if however your instructor can not tell you or show you how to perform the half halt stride then find another


Here’s the best “functional” picture I can give of her.
Halt – Very stable and square.
Walk – Still needs some warmup time to get energized, but then will track up.
Trot – Her best gait. Can do a nice medium. Working on extended a little bit.
Canter – Developing some real bounce, but still tends to lean especially to the right.

work in a square areana using the lenght and width of the school if you havent got one mark out an area on the ground at least 20x60 so you can lengthen and shorten your strides using the half halt stride so the horse can be more balanced going straight and forwards start with all walk paces then all trot paces using the half halt in ever trnasition up and down gears then add canter and counter canter


Does have a higher gear, but not an extension yet. 20 meter circle is the smallest we do.

dont do small circles on a young or green horse that uneducated go large as it will put extra strians and stress on undevelped legs or unfit neddies

if the horse is unbalanced then you wont get it -- go large as in large once the horse has balance in large as in all the way around a square arena then you can ask for 20m circle then go large on same rein then change ends and go large then ask 2om circle
dont continue to do tiny circles if the horse is un balanced green or doesnt know a lot always go large

Transitions – Halt-walk and walk-trot are very good. Trot-canter is usually above the bit. All downwards are about the same, pretty smooth, not falling on her face like she used to, but could use a little more impulsion. Trot-walk is probably her weakest.



Shoulder in – Good for several steps, but not show quality yet.
Haunches in – Actually seems better than SI.
TOH – MUCH improved after we fixed the foot problem, and even more so when I realized 2 weeks ago that using my own core was the key I’d been missing.
Leg yield – Excellent, I think she finds this easy.
Self-carriage – Needs some warmup and then firm riding, but then will produce.

hands your hands -- as your not asking her properly in the begining
for a horse to have a mouth energy is felt by the implusion you create via legs through your hands
and your not containing the rythem so horse breaks
this is more rider error than horse error

which your instructor should be picking up on if they worth a light - which there iis no mention of any half halts strides - for exsample the trot to walk should have a half halt stride as a transition down to walk so it goes trot half halt walk


i feel like we’re at a plateau right now, but looking back it seems we’ve accomplished a fair amount. This mare will never go high in dressage, but she’s a much pleasanter ride now. An old instructor who hadn’t seen her in a year complimented me recently profusely on the difference she saw.

green horse green rider as in normal joe bloggs public how high you go rather depends on you and your partner -- ie the horse


I’m not asking for advice on how to achieve specific things. What I’d like to know is, considering the amount I ride and the weekly lessons, is this a lot to achieve in one year, a normal amount, or should she have even come further? The canter leads are my big issue right now, but obviously I’ll keep working on all the other stuff. I know you can’t really tell anything without seeing us, but I’ve tried to be as realistic as possible.

not really - as there are issues that you have in your riding skils that areeffecting the way your horse goes
which you have to address if you want to go further - but little tip beleive me when i say if your trianer cant inform or show you how to do a half halt stride then find another but i have little faith in anyone thats not picking up in a lesson a riders centeral position and not being able to keep the horse striaght

[Bobblehead]

Well, that was painful, but I asked for it, didn't I? Let me clarify about the "firm warmup" thing. By that I mean asking for energy every step, not letting her go into zombieland. I'm basically a timid rider, and when I think of riding "firmly" or "aggressively" other people would call it "effective." My instructor is always telling me, "Demand more," meaning crisper transitions and more reaching gaits. I sometimes wonder if I'll ever undo all my bad habits. Being a passenger is one.

I know that a written description is almost worthless, so maybe this was all a waste of time, in which case I apologize to those of you who took the time to try to understand! SLC, I appreciate your detailed response. I could answer several of your questions, but at this point am not sure that would get us any further. By bounce in the canter I meant energy, having her hindquarters more under her.

I am working diligently on my own position problems and know that's where 95% of the problems are, but it does get frustrating. I'm not a natural rider, and I'm beginning to wonder if I have the right personality for it. I just feel like it takes me so LONG to get anywhere.

Angel, thanks for the suggestions on how to make pictures useful. I'm not sure I have rights to post them, but am hoping to get some taken soon.

[goeslikestink]

Well, that was painful, but I asked for it, didn't I? Let me clarify about the "firm warmup" thing. By that I mean asking for energy every step, not letting her go into zombieland. I'm basically a timid rider, and when I think of riding "firmly" or "aggressively" other people would call it "effective." My instructor is always telling me, "Demand more," meaning crisper transitions and more reaching gaits. I sometimes wonder if I'll ever undo all my bad habits. Being a passenger is one.

I know that a written description is almost worthless, so maybe this was all a waste of time, in which case I apologize to those of you who took the time to try to understand! SLC, I appreciate your detailed response. I could answer several of your questions, but at this point am not sure that would get us any further. By bounce in the canter I meant energy, having her hindquarters more under her.

I am working diligently on my own position problems and know that's where 95% of the problems are, but it does get frustrating. I'm not a natural rider, and I'm beginning to wonder if I have the right personality for it. I just feel like it takes me so LONG to get anywhere.

Angel, thanks for the suggestions on how to make pictures useful. I'm not sure I have rights to post them, but am hoping to get some taken soon.

often timid riders lack the confinddence to push on- lack of confidence to a horse is a fear factor- as they look to you for guidance and confidence

you have to change your thinking to being more assertive and positive your problems are you and not the horse