once burned, twice shy....trial dilemna

[altereggo]

I have a very nice pony for sale. I had a trainer contact me about it saying she has a child that pony would be perfect for but due to the timidness of the child, parents are reluctant to spend $$ on a pony that they can't have a trial with. The trainers barn is not in my area so it would be difficult for me to check up on the pony as they are several hours away but have no reason to believe that barn would offer anything but excellent care, based on the condition of horses and ponies I have seen from that barn at shows. Other than occassionally seeing this trainer at shows I have had no dealings with her and don't know much about her reputation business wise (i.e. honest vs. dishonest).

The reason I am reluctant to send another animal out on trial is that I sold another pony about two months ago (that went out on trial for a week) and I have yet to receive the balance of payment and will probably end up in court over it as I don't see it forthcoming any time soon.

So....what is the best way to handle a trial? I have been told that I am an idiot because I let the last pony go out without payment in full to a stranger (client payed 1/2 with balance due at end of trial). What type of deposit should I be looking for on a five figure pony? What length of trial is acceptable to most trainers? I think a week is adequate time to know if a rider/horse combo clicks (no questions on the pony's talent and ability, that is already acknowledged by trainer who has already told parents to buy pony sight unseen).

I don't want to kill what could be a sale in a not so great market but really am not 100% comfortable with a trial to people I don't know. Advice please.....If anyone has a sale contract that includes a trial clause that they would like to share would be appreciated as well!

[ponylover2008]

There is a similar thread in the Breeder's forum. I, like you, have an incredible pony for sale. Somebody asked me if they could "lease him for a few months" for a trial period with him. They tried him at a show and really liked him. However, they jumped him to death when trying him at the show- I can only imagine how they would treat him when away from my trainer's eyes. I will give up a sale to ensure that he is properly cared for and would never let him go out on trial. I have heard way too many horror stories!!!

[JinxyFish313]

Get some references from the trainer. Be polite about it of course, just explain that its your standard practice to get a number of references before letting a pony go on trial. Also ask to go check out the facility, or better yet drop in unexpected to see what really goes on there.

Definitely draw up a contract with the terms of the trial, deposit, payment, etc. If they fail to pay or return the pony on the stipulated date, just go get your pony. If it was the type of trainer that would be sneaky and move the pony on you, I think you'd know that from the references, or lack thereof.

[PicturePerfectPonies]

I would require payment in full before the pony leaves. Have them vet check before the pony leaves. If they don't want the pony you will provide a full refund when the pony returns AFTER the pony vets clean upon return. I would use the same vet for both checks just for consistency.

[Giddy-up]

Have they already been out to try the pony at your farm? Perhaps they need to schedule an overnight trip so they can ride it for 2 days in a row? Have you met them in person? What is your gut telling you? Will they provide some references?

As for the trial if you do decide to allow it (personally not knowing the people or farm I'd be very hesitant)--I'd only let it go 3-5 days. Either they can ship the pony back (on their dime of course) or have the PPE scheduled. I wouldn't let things linger out for long. If they want to try it more, they can come back to your farm to ride. I'd also be leaning strongly towards them paying for the pony in full prior to it leaving your property with a refund available under certain conditions you'd list in the contract.

[altereggo]

Trainer has offered references and we do know people in common so I will be checking up. Client is really only about three hours away and has not been out to see the pony yet (we are working on a day/time that suits them). In my mind, that is close enough to come try the pony several times without a trial period. If I do the trial, I am leaning towards the payment in full and PPE before the pony leaves on trial as Picture Perfect suggested. I would also consider driving the pony up to their farm for the kid to have another ride in lieu of doing a trial (will kill two birds with one stone.....can check out their facilities as well).

[HollysHobbies]

I would tell them they can come try your pony over a long weekend...3 days in a row or something...maybe they can get a hotel or stay at a b&b. A near-cation/try the pony. ??? Or offer to lease the pony for a set amount for 1 month that is NON refundable...they pay full price and if they choose to return the pony (at their expense), they will be refunded less the lease amount.

[AliBus]

I would require payment in full before the pony leaves. Have them vet check before the pony leaves. If they don't want the pony you will provide a full refund when the pony returns AFTER the pony vets clean upon return. I would use the same vet for both checks just for consistency.

And I would require a cashier's that way it can't be stopped once they have your pony!

[JinxyFish313]

There's really no such things as inviting the kid out 3 days in a row "in lieu" of a trial. You could still be drugging or lunging the pony to death before they come to ride. You could have him in a different stall when they get there because he chews the crap out of his own. I'm not saying any of that is true, but as a buyer I ALWAYS want to bring a potential sale horse home to see how he is away from the seller.

[SkipChange]

I bought a horse in Feb. of this year. I went to try the horse twice in person, once with parent and once alone (I'm a college student). Owner let me take him on trial with contract, down payment, & insurance that I would be liable for medical bills and full purchase amount should anything happen (unsoundness or death) of animal. Horse was found online, she never had contact with my trainer but I did email her the farm website so she could check it out. Trial was 30 days with vetting to be performed ASAP.

110% sound and seller and I have great relationship, continue to email updates of every show.

[Gideon]

I was lucky enough to take my horse on trial and I did sign a contract.
Seller was about 1/2 hr. away and could check on him at any time. I practically kept him in a plastic bubble, until I bought him.
A lot of seller's refuse to let the horse go on trial and I can understand why,
I say go with your gut feeling and definitely have a contract drawn up.:D

[Giddy-up]

There's really no such things as inviting the kid out 3 days in a row "in lieu" of a trial. You could still be drugging or lunging the pony to death before they come to ride. You could have him in a different stall when they get there because he chews the crap out of his own. I'm not saying any of that is true, but as a buyer I ALWAYS want to bring a potential sale horse home to see how he is away from the seller.

Yes, but buyer hasn't even seen or tried pony yet wants to arrange for a take home trial?

I still say they need to come for a weekend & try the pony a few times. IF it seems to be working out, then start planning for a trial if that's what the OP is willing to do. Why go thru all this hassle of arranging payments & PPE & possible refunds & ship the pony there only for the child to sit on it for 10 minutes & say "I really don't like this one".

[vali]

I have bought horses and ponies three times after a trial. In all cases I paid in full before taking them and agreed that if the horse/pony was injured during the trial I had bought them. I don't think I've ever taken one on trial and not ended up buying it, so trials can work out well, and I can understand that the parents want to make sure the kid can handle the pony. I would agree that the kid should come try the pony before you do a trial.

[fancyfooted]

I would require payment in full before the pony leaves. Have them vet check before the pony leaves. If they don't want the pony you will provide a full refund when the pony returns AFTER the pony vets clean upon return. I would use the same vet for both checks just for consistency.

:yes:

[Long Spot]

There's really no such things as inviting the kid out 3 days in a row "in lieu" of a trial. You could still be drugging or lunging the pony to death before they come to ride. You could have him in a different stall when they get there because he chews the crap out of his own. I'm not saying any of that is true, but as a buyer I ALWAYS want to bring a potential sale horse home to see how he is away from the seller.

Yes, but the bottom line is Altereggo owns the pony. She has the right to decide what she will and wont let happen with it. She has every reason to be wary. Unfortunately, a few bad apples can spoil how horses get sold. The sad fact is, Jinxy, that we all have to pay the price for what those few bad apples do to sellers. Course, you can say the same for buyers as well. Which is probably why you always like to see a horse away from it's owners before writing the check. Not everyone is trustworthy. A sucky fact of life and life with horses, for sure.

OP, if you are comfortable with it, I'd go with the cashiers check and PPE up front before the pony leaves for the trial. Sounds like it could be a great home for the pony, but I understand your concern.

[Gideon]

Yes, but buyer hasn't even seen or tried pony yet wants to arrange for a take home trial?

I still say they need to come for a weekend & try the pony a few times. IF it seems to be working out, then start planning for a trial if that's what the OP is willing to do. Why go thru all this hassle of arranging payments & PPE & possible refunds & ship the pony there only for the child to sit on it for 10 minutes & say "I really don't like this one".


I agree, they should try the pony first before any trial arrangements are made.:cool:

[JinxyFish313]

The last time we went pony shopping, they ALL came over for at least a four day trial. We didn't go see any of them first. Our trainer said this pony might work, its coming here for a few days. The ones we knew wouldn't work out right away, went back right away. Same process when we were selling.


Of course the OP has the right to do whatever she wants, but if the buyers want a trial period then inviting them to ride it at your place 3 days in a row just isn't a substitute, thats my point.

[Janet]

I think the best thing to do is
PPE and payment in full before the pony leaves your barn, but with an agreement to buy the pony back (less a nominal amount) if it is returned (within, say, 2 weeks) in the same condition.

[Janet]

The last time we went pony shopping, they ALL came over for at least a four day trial. We didn't go see any of them first. Our trainer said this pony might work, its coming here for a few days. The ones we knew wouldn't work out right away, went back right away. Same process when we were selling.

This process works when the buying trainer and the selling trainer know, trust and respoect each other, and have done this many times before.

But in this case, the seller DOES NOT KNOW the buying trainer well enough to do this kind of thing based on trust.

[superpony123]

Theres always going to be two sides to this story. Neither one is wrong or right. there are bad sellers and bad buyers.

I know that you want your pony to be safe and sound wherever he goes, and under the best possible care. It's like when parents send their kids to college: some are nervous about them going far away, some forbid big party schools, some won't let their kids go to an urban area, etc. because it makes them uncomfortable that they won't know what's going on. but they still have to let them go at some point.

there are tons of horror stories out there of trials gone wrong.

there are also tons of horrific seller stories.

personally, i know if i had to sell my pony (well, i wont have to, because i lease a pony!) i would be VERY reluctant to send him off. however, if i knew he was in a place that i could randomly drop in to visit, (such as a place that's an hour away, or closer) and i knew the trainer or the rider or at least knew of SOMEONE who knows them, I would be willing. because i understand that buying a horse is tricky. i don't like to take ponies on trial without having gone to visit them at their own farm first. it's a waste of money, in my opinion, to just have them shipped out to me, sight unseen, because more likely than not--i will not want the pony in the end.

i am often very reluctant to follow up on a sale if the owner says no trials allowed. how am i supposed to know if they're drugging the pony or lunging him to death or riding him before i get there? the point is, if you don't know the trainer personally, how can you ever really know? it's clear to us HERE that you're not doing anything fishy, but you have to understand that the buyers have no way of knowing that.

find out more about the trainer. then make a decision. it's a tough market out there, and who knows when the next time you'll get a serious offer is?

[JinxyFish313]

I know. I can read. That doesn't change the fact that 3 days of rides at the seller's farm is not a substitute for an at-home trial. Which, again, is my point.

[NeverEnd]

I agree with a piece of what most have said. I would not send the pony out on trial on a handshake agreement. I certainly can't imagine why they want the pony on trial without even having tried it first, unless they're a few states away. Seems like a major hassle just to turn around and realize the pony isn't what they need.

Nevertheless, I would only send on trial after a at least 3 reference checks, PPE and full payment of pony (cashiers check only). Seller would hold the check until the trail is over and/or purchase decision is made. If pony is injured during the trail, they just bought it. Also, I would certainly put all of this in writing.

[toomanyponies]

As a trainer, if a seller wont let me take a pony/horse on trial, I feel there is something to hide. i.e. they feel it is not going to go well for some reason - spooky away from home, lame, wild etc. . . On the flip side, I always have a contract in place, there is insurance, price is agreed on, I have a vet appointment in place, etc, and the trial is 7 days maximum. I want to make sure the pony jumps a course in a different ring, with our preparation (or lack thereof :-) ). If I am unsure, sometimes I will arrange a short term lease (month or two) with all the money applied towards the purchase price. An exception might be for a well known show pony that I've seen go a lot - if the kid rides it nicely at the show, there is no need to take it on trial.

[Long Spot]

I know. I can read. That doesn't change the fact that 3 days of rides at the seller's farm is not a substitute for an at-home trial. Which, again, is my point.

:eek: Didn't mean to insinuate that you couldn't read. Sorry if you mistook it that way. I get your point.

But I also get the point of the person who owns the pony.

[hellerkm]

Our pony came to us this summer sight unseen. The trainer allowed us to ship the pony from WI to PA after talking with me on the phone. We have had Lizzy for just over 2 mos ( the trial period) and I am sending the agreed upon payment to the trainer this week. We love our pony BUT I would not have purchased ANY pony that I could not bring home and try for at least 3-4 weeks. This is partly because my DD is young and tiny, I really needed to see a pony "match" with the kid and I don't think that happens in a few days. We have uncovered a few "pony" issues along the way and I am glad we had the time to make sure that we felt we could overcome these issues. I cannot send enough thanks to the trainer who was willing to send us Lizzy, she is a well known trainer in the pony world and did NOT have to take this chance ( she has never met me) I will be FOREVER grateful!!
I know that when we send our young hunters off on a trial there is a contract, insurance, and payment agreement. No money changes hands until the buyer makes a decision. This is the way my parents have always done it and they have never had an issue.

[toomanyponies]

I know. I can read. That doesn't change the fact that 3 days of rides at the seller's farm is not a substitute for an at-home trial. Which, again, is my point.

Exactly.

[RockinHorse]

I am not a trainer and I don't have children so I do not buy ponies. That being said, I don't know of any parents or trainers who will buy a pony for a child without a trial, unless they have been familiar with the pony at shows for quite some time. If you do not want to allow a pony to go on trial, that is up to you but it could greatly reduce your ability to find a buyer.

As far as the child not seeing the pony yet, my trainer brings ponies in for kids on trial that the children have not see yet. If the pony does not work for the child it was brought in for, there is ususlly at least one other child that might be interested.

[Lucassb]

I would never send my horse on trial to another barn based on just a handshake and a promise.

I understand why people want trials. I understand there are bad sellers out there who "prepare" a horse to be shown for sale in all sorts of ways that I would find unacceptable.

However, there are also bad buyers out there, who will use and abuse the horse "on trial" with abandon - then return it, broken or battered, and go on their merry way, thinking nothing of it.

Sorry, not happening to one of mine.

That said, it is a buyer's market in most places. IF you agree to a trial, the idea *should* (IMO) be to demonstrate that the horse/pony will be able to cope with the new program as well as it did in yours. In other words - it can live in the new barn, with whatever turnout arrangements there are, and within the new riding/training program. Most horses/ponies can settle into a new situation in a couple of days or so and can be assessed at that point.

The decision to buy or not buy should be made in advance; that is what the test drive (ride) is for. The trial is really just to ascertain whether the horse/pony really IS what was advertised (ie, goes however it goes without being LTD, ridden for hours beforehand, etc) and allows the buyer to see if the horse can live in the buyer's program and gives the buyer a sense of whether the horse was "overly prepared" for that test drive or not.

In any case, the details of the transaction should be worked out well in advance of the horse leaving on trial. I would require a vetting, payment in full - to be refunded based on the terms agreed upon if the horse is returned in the same condition as when it was vetted before leaving - insured at the buyer's expense, with a contract specifying what could or could not happen during the trial period.

Good luck.

[ParisHillEC]

I am going through a similar situation right now.

I have been looking for a pony for a 5yr student of mine. Something safe and can take her from the walk/trot and hopefully move her up.

The parents obviously want safety first and a trial and we can't find anyone who is willing to do that.

We are more than willing to do the contract, insurance, references, etc.

On the other hand, I can see why people are hesitant to send their ponies out on trial.

Id say if it were me sending out my pony, I would go with my gut, a contract, insurance, and have everything clearly out before the pony left my barn.

[Callison]

I'm in the middle of trying to sell my horse.. that being said... he's gone on 2 "trials" and he will NOT be going on another one. First one went ok, gave a deposit they picked him up.. signed their life away and he came home 3 days later (little girl was too scared of the "big" horse). Second one she bought and I allowed a 2 week trial to make sure he was the right fit... some things happened and I know I wasn't told the whole story... bottom line, he came home a complete mess and took me a month to get him back to normal. I know it's unfair of me to make a generalization that 1 person messed up the whole thing but I can't take that risk again.

[spurgirl]

I would think, for a five-figure priced pony, the trainer, parents, and child could at least go to the seller's barn at least to see and ride the pony....It was mentioned by the OP they are only a few hours away. That way the seller could at least get a feel for these complete strangers, and in turn, they could get a feel for the pony. What a waste of everyone's time, if, for some reason, they didn't like the pony immediately, if it was trucked to the buyer's barn for a trial!

While I am a complete horse lover, there have been a few I've looked at, when buying (this was a few years ago), I didn't care for immediately-no interest even in getting on, never mind a trial...

Just recently,after the owner checked my references, and we exchanged many emails/phone calls, I drove three hours one way to look at a free horse! Due to insurance reasons, I could not ride her. We were allowed to take her, with a contract. Now, 2 months later, she's mine:)..So I'm glad I drove all that way to see her!! It was worth every mile!!

[DancingQueen]

Seems you think the pony will recieve good care and think that the trainer will do right by him and the potential client.

In these times you porbably want to do your best to accomodate a potential good new owner of your pony.

You will want to write up a good contract for the trial and if you have worries about payment you could possibly ask them to make a deposit fort he trial period. Maybe 10% to be used toward purchase if they decide to move along. Or even to place some money in escrow while you are awaiting either a finalized sale or the safe return of your pony.

[jpalisades]

I would require payment in full before the pony leaves. Have them vet check before the pony leaves. If they don't want the pony you will provide a full refund when the pony returns AFTER the pony vets clean upon return. I would use the same vet for both checks just for consistency.

I agree with Picture....

This is the way our barn now handles anyone who 'must' have a trial. That way if pony/horse is not returned their check has already been cashed;) But PLEASE you have to have the vet check done BEFORE the pony leaves your farm. As there is no telling what can happen in a trailer or at the new barn! Everything must be in writing to protect your self and your pony/horse.

[WorthTheWait95]

We bought a lot of horses and ponies when I was junior and for the most part if we had at least seen them around the shows and if they vetted clean after trying them we would just buy them.

On a few occasions we did not know the horse/pony or there was some question to the horse/ponies reputation so we would request a short trial at home. My dad owns an international corporation so he's used to writing lots and lots of contracts.

The way we did it was that we would pay 10% of the asking price in cash and give a post dated (for the day after our trial ended) check for the remainder of the money. Those checks were given with an iron clad contract stating as long as the horse/pony was returned by the end of the trial (at our expense) for any reason (bad PPE, horse was a stopper, whatever) the remainder check would be either destroyed by the seller or stopped via our bank if they attempted to cash it. The 10% deposit was non refundable per the contract.

These were, for the most part, not cheap horses (high 5's, low 6 figs). We only ever returned one horse (miserable hock xrays and had a dirty stop in him that appeared at home) and never had an issue with a seller.

[Ponyaddict]

In this economy, if I have a student looking at a horse and it can't go on trial (with deposit, insurance, references, contract), then we just keep looking. There are too many out there to take a risk that it has been "prepped" at home. Also, many have mentioned the PPE, I absolutely would not do the PPE in the seller's barn with the seller's vet. I always have the PPE scheduled and ready before taking hom a trial horse - but it's going to be done by my vet.

If you are really uncomfortable sending on trial, then don't. But you will reduce your pool of prospective buyers to some degree, especially with a pony since you're looking at small kids. I buy for myself with no trial - but will never do it for a junior client unless it's a horse I already know.

[mg]

Also, many have mentioned the PPE, I absolutely would not do the PPE in the seller's barn with the seller's vet. I always have the PPE scheduled and ready before taking hom a trial horse - but it's going to be done by my vet.

Is it common practice for a horse's primary vet to do PPEs? Last time I bought a horse, it was from a seller who lived very close (about an hour away). When I called my vet about doing a pre-purchase, they said they would only be able to do it if the seller wasn't also a client of theirs. I'm assuming this is for issues concerning ethics and maintaining good relations with clients. Was this a special case since both the potential buyer and seller might have had the same vet or what? I can't imagine any ethical vet wanting to maintain good relations with his or her clients would agree to do a PPE on a horse they were selling.

[quicksilverponies]

I have allowed ponies to go out on trial on rare occasions. However, I am not a fan, and I have had many bad experiences. Even the most well-known trainers with stellar reputations are sometimes tempted to "try" a few unacceptable(to me) things with the pony just to see how he will handle it. There is very little risk to the buyer when taking the pony on trial and huge risks to the seller. For the most part I encourage buyers to look for horses and ponies at barns or breeders' farms that have very honest verifiable reputations. I, and many other breeders I know, try very hard to never misrepresent a sale pony and would NEVER drug it prior to having a child ride it. I have many references of previous satisfied buyers that I am happy to provide. That being said, I understand that some buyers feel the need to see how the pony will be at their own barn. (Although I think it takes much longer than a week for a pony to settle in to a new environment so it is a bit unfair for the pony and I would not let the trial go longer than that). I ask for payment in full with a written contract stating the money will be refunded at the end of the trial if there is a specific problem with the pony. Pony must be vet checked before it leaves my farm - but you can choose the vet - in fact, my own vet will not do PPE for me because of conflict of interest. And of course, there must be insurance, etc. Good luck with whatever you choose.

[whbar158]

I agree it is hard to decide how to do things like this. I do know people who have taken a horse on trial without seeing it before. Usually this is set up between trainers and often if it is clear it is not going to be a match the horse/pony comes back very quickly. I agree with a week to 2 week trial they pay 10% up front then the rest at the end, or since the op was burning with that before a check for full payment that seller holds on to until trial period over. I know lots of horses that go on trial and do fine, but then again most that I have seen go/come on trial have been bought and not returned home. I have heard horror stories of horses being returned ruined.

What I would do is have some sort of contract and go with my gut, if it is telling me it might not go well then no trial and if they really want the pony they will buy it, if not then maybe you didn't want it going to that home anyways. If you feel really good about it, then go for it.

[Janet]

Is it common practice for a horse's primary vet to do PPEs? Last time I bought a horse, it was from a seller who lived very close (about an hour away). When I called my vet about doing a pre-purchase, they said they would only be able to do it if the seller wasn't also a client of theirs. I'm assuming this is for issues concerning ethics and maintaining good relations with clients. Was this a special case since both the potential buyer and seller might have had the same vet or what? I can't imagine any ethical vet wanting to maintain good relations with his or her clients would agree to do a PPE on a horse they were selling.
This is SOP.

The BUYER'S vet does the PPE. If the buyer's vet is also the seller's vet, you get a different vet to do the PPE.

[mg]

This is SOP.

The BUYER'S vet does the PPE. If the buyer's vet is also the seller's vet, you get a different vet to do the PPE.

K, thanks what I thought. It was sounding like some people might do it differently and that didn't make much sense to me...

[clearound]

The drugging (not saying there is of course) would come out in a PPE. Draw up a contract, get a cashier's check, put the money in an escrow account and if the pony is not returned in 5 days (the amount of time it would take to get the drug test back and to see if they liked the pony), in the same condition as they took it, the check is cashed. If they return it within the 5 days because it did not work out fand the pony is no different than when he left, the money is returned. Clean and simple and everyone is protected.