Options to remove the "bitch" from the mare...

[jmvwiv]

Here's the background:
This is a 5yr old well broke show hunter with no saddle or pain issues,
First course Saturday afternoon at the horse show after a good warm up the mare decides to throw a temper tantrum in the ring.

Jumped the single toward the in-gate then left to the diagonal line. She played on the departure of the single and i rode through it, jumped the in of the diagonal line 6 strides to the oxer out. Except we didnt make it, she threw her head up and all but stopped dead in her tracks, I circled out came to it again she did it again worse, I made a smaller circle & came to it again - this time jumping it. Well did I pay for it!!!! She landed and put her head between her legs and back crackingly bucked up all 4 off the ground several feet. I stayed on for the first 3 but then she added in a very fancy twist on the 4th one and I flew off. I rolled over to watch her in the opposite corner continuing her antics then she takes off for the other end of the ring. So I'm basically fine, got back on and jumped her in the schooling ring again - she was an angel. Sunday I entered her in EVERY class I could and required her to "do her job" over and over. She didnt pull that again on Sunday.

So she was protesting being asked to work, protesting being alone & leaving the horses at the in-gate. And she learned that by pitching a fit like that she can get her way & leave the ring.

I'm not chalking it up to a one time occurance because she learned a dangerous lesson from it. SOOOOOOOOO my question is (sorry for the legnthy background info) What can I give her LEGALLY to get the bitch from rearing her ugly head in my generally very non-bitchy mare? She will be getting a depo shot in October. Can I double dose her depo? just kidding. Anything else?

Thanks for the input.

[findeight]

Hard to form an opinion based on the limited info but...

She is FIVE. I don't know how experienced you think she is but at five? Not like she's been to hundreds of shows here. I am a mare fan and have had some queen Bs, including the one I have owned and shown for almost 10 years now.

What you describe does not sound like bitch, sounds like GREEN, scared or in pain. Bitchy behavior is tailwringing, ear pinning, resistance to rider commands, girthyness, snapping and biting and so forth. These are the things that Depo/regumate etc can help even out.

Going in the ring and throwing a bucking fit may be aggravated by hormones but you have something else going on with the head slinging, stopping and bucking. I suspect she is still capable of green moments and may just have had a "terrible teen" moment as they do until they have a good deal more experience then this one youngster.

Also think you need to do a little research on mares and their cycles as well as the available products and how they work. Depo needs to be timed to the ovulation cycle to be most effective-a single shot may do nothing...and most mares will stop cycling over the winter, Oct. is late to be using it.

Most of these things like Regumate, regular Depo shots and such are legal but, again, they need to be given on a regular basis. There are some herbals but watch it if you show. Valerian is a common additive make sure you know what's in it and make sure you can trust the manufacurer tells the truth on the label.

[City Ponies]

I agree with findeight. I have a 4 yr old gelding. Been to numerous shows, but he still can get funky if he's in the ring by himself after schooling with a bunch of other horses. I would call this a green moment, and go with something along the lines of Quietex before hormones.

[meupatdoes]

Every once in a while my four year old turns himself a$$ over teakettle.

I hang on, wait it out, and pat him when he's back to work.

[Vindicated]

You know-I don't know how well broke a 5 year old can be either.

I may be soft, but NONE of my horses jump anything but an occasional x until they are 4. After that, I am certainly not pounding courses into them.

I would not consider a horse "well broke" until 3-4 years of showing, but that is me and I don't do an every week or every weekend thing.

[smid2]

There are a couple of mares in my barn that are on Mare Magic and it seems to have helped them with amazing results. It's basically just raspberry leaves. They both have done very well on it. Might be something to try.

[carolinagirl191]

Who makes Mare Magic? Where might one find it?

[purplnurpl]

Five year olds should not be turning themselves inside out or stopping at fences.

I had a holy B***H mare so I know what you are talking about.

So you can try all the normal mare stuff. Orals and the marble thing.

The herd sour is just personality. Usually that is forever. I hate it but you get what you get.

I had my mare's ovaries taken out. This is the reason I am still alive today.

Also, when my mare turned 16 she stoped slamming the breaks on at ditches and triple combos and started dragging me over fences. I think maybe her hocks fused? And suddenly she felt better? who knows.

Look into pain. SI, stifle or hocks.

[JB]

Jumped the single toward the in-gate then left to the diagonal line. She played on the departure of the single and i rode through it, jumped the in of the diagonal line 6 strides to the oxer out.
Is that the first time she's ever done something like that?

So I'm basically fine, got back on and jumped her in the schooling ring again - she was an angel. Sunday I entered her in EVERY class I could and required her to "do her job" over and over. She didnt pull that again on Sunday.
Why do you feel that entering her in a million classes would "show her"? You jumped her in the schooling ring again after you came off, she was fine. As findeight said, she's FIVE. She had (we'll assume) a baby tantrum, and was fine after. What did you think wearing her out the next day would solve?

So she was protesting being asked to work, protesting being alone & leaving the horses at the in-gate. And she learned that by pitching a fit like that she can get her way & leave the ring.
But she didn't "get away" with anything. You came off, you got back on, you schooled her a bit and she was fine. She's FIVE and is only as "well broke" as a 5yo can be, which is not what I think you think it means.

I'm not chalking it up to a one time occurance because she learned a dangerous lesson from it.
How do you know what, if anything, she learned? She obviously didn't learn much - you came off, you got on, schooled her, she was fine, rode her a LOT the next day, she was fine. That doesn't sound like she learned much of anything other than showing = lots of hard work.

SOOOOOOOOO my question is (sorry for the legnthy background info) What can I give her LEGALLY to get the bitch from rearing her ugly head in my generally very non-bitchy mare? She will be getting a depo shot in October. Can I double dose her depo? just kidding. Anything else?

Thanks for the input.
How about just putting the incident in the back of your mind, realize that at FIVE she may absolutely have grown into a saddle fit issue, or perhaps she had a little bee get caught in her saddle pad and sting her, or she saw something out of the corner of her eye that wigged out her *green* self, and not assume that she all of a sudden decided to be a nasty ol' mare?

Five year olds should not be turning themselves inside out or stopping at fences.
Ever? They're greenies. They can't not be.

[enjoytheride]

I think alpha mares don't suffer fools well. If you're tight on her, in her face, or not riding her forward she may be expressing her anger at that. Correct the things that are wrong with your riding and get her some more show miles first.

[slc2]

Sounds like she was fresh. Maybe she needs more work.

[Plumcreek]

Agree with the above re:
Mare Magic (Raspberry leaves that can be ordered cheaper from herbal dealers - do a coth search)
Magnesium maybe added to MM
Chiro/Vet palpate of withers, back and hips for a developing problem (I had a mare anyone else would have labeled a bitch, except my face swirl training told me not likely - turned out to be pain - kissing spines getting worse as mare's skeleton matured)
Regumate -one mare of mine truly does get PMS.
Wet saddleblankets.

[smid2]

Who makes Mare Magic? Where might one find it?

I believe the manufacturer is actually Mare Magic as well. And you should be able to find it anywhere that sells supplements. Smart Pak, Valley Vet, your local feed store. It's widely available through many different channels. Fairly cheap too. And on a personal note, it smells wonderful too :D

[MrWinston]

But I have alot of mare showing experience. My first thought was that it was an in gate/herd issue. At her age and training level it's not surprising that she might just test to see if she really has to go away from the gate. I have to ask if when you ride you take the gate placement into consideration. Horses need more pace going past the gate and away from it. You have to ride them with more determination away from the gate. They will most always take you towards the gate. This could be lack of rider awareness and the horse dropping behind your leg going away. Nice opportunity for a bucking fit. I don't think that more classes helps, you need to ride the courses effectively to prevent her from even thinking about spitting you out.

[jmvwiv]

First thanks for taking the time to give me your opinions.

Is that the first time she's ever done something like that?

Yes this is the first time she has done anything like this.

Why do you feel that entering her in a million classes would "show her"? You jumped her in the schooling ring again after you came off, she was fine. As findeight said, she's FIVE. She had (we'll assume) a baby tantrum, and was fine after. What did you think wearing her out the next day would solve?

Hardly a million, I said all the ones I could which was only 5 classes. Yes we jumped a couple of jumps in the schooling area right after and she was fine, back to being a normal horse. So you dont have a wrong impression she was not punished my me at all, I just got back on jumped the schooling fence twice, she was floppy eared so we took her back to the barn. We werent going to do her any good continuing that day. The objective to Sunday was not to wear her out - that would neither teach nor solve anyting, rather it was to get her in the ring, be required to jump 8 jumps and then get to leave the ring. Go in do her job get rewarded for doing it and leave the ring.

I agree with that I that she was probably fresh - although she didnt give me signs of being too fresh prior to going in the ring. She warmed up lazily, wasn't nervous, etc. We've been to this show grounds often so she is used to being there (although it has been awhile since the last time). I really am - although I did not communicate it in the original post understanding of her being green & I do totally have patience for that behavior - it is just that this specific example went way beyond.


But she didn't "get away" with anything. You came off, you got back on, you schooled her a bit and she was fine. She's FIVE and is only as "well broke" as a 5yo can be, which is not what I think you think it means.

No I understand what broke means. I included it b/c I didnt need any help with "she needs to learn to leg yield" or the like. She's well broke for a 5yr old Hunter. Not a to be compared to older more experienced campainger.


How do you know what, if anything, she learned? She obviously didn't learn much - you came off, you got on, schooled her, she was fine, rode her a LOT the next day, she was fine. That doesn't sound like she learned much of anything other than showing = lots of hard work.

Not hard work, just work & I guess that is better than learning that temper tantrum = get out of work & injures rider in process. Regardless it makes me feel better that you dont feel she learned what I was nervous of.


How about just putting the incident in the back of your mind, realize that at FIVE she may absolutely have grown into a saddle fit issue, or perhaps she had a little bee get caught in her saddle pad and sting her, or she saw something out of the corner of her eye that wigged out her *green* self, and not assume that she all of a sudden decided to be a nasty ol' mare?

No she's not a nasty ol' mare - she's actually a REALLY nice mare, just had a nasty alter ego rear its ugly head - that I would rather not meet again :lol: I am a competant adult, I've brought her along since a 2yr old in a professional show environment. I can totally deal - and have delt - with her *green* antics. I'll put it behind me agreed, and maybe try the Mare Magic too :lol:

She'll go to another show in October & I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, promise.

[indygirl2560]

Sounds like a greenie seeing what they can get away with. My friend's 4yr old did something similar to that at a show, but didn't get my friend off during the tantrum. The next show, the mare was stubborn the first class and fine for everything else(including shows after that). Hopefully your mare won't have another major "greenie episode" in October! Good luck!

[JB]

I agree with that I that she was probably fresh - although she didnt give me signs of being too fresh prior to going in the ring. She warmed up lazily
I would pay strong attention to the bolded part ;) A horse who is testing their human doesn't have to be actively disobedient, they can be passively testing you. A horse doesn't have to bolt - they can decide to ignore your leg ;) A passively dominant horse can test you in many subtle ways that are not just "training" issues. Then, before you even realize it, they have decided that you are not going to stop their little tests, so the "suddenly" give you a big test.

I'd make very sure that every thing you ask of her she does instantly and does to the best of her ability. She may be one who asks for an inch and takes 10 miles ;)

She'll go to another show in October & I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, promise.
I think that's the best plan :)

[Parrotnutz]

But I have alot of mare showing experience. My first thought was that it was an in gate/herd issue. At her age and training level it's not surprising that she might just test to see if she really has to go away from the gate. I have to ask if when you ride you take the gate placement into consideration. Horses need more pace going past the gate and away from it. You have to ride them with more determination away from the gate. They will most always take you towards the gate. This could be lack of rider awareness and the horse dropping behind your leg going away. Nice opportunity for a bucking fit. I don't think that more classes helps, you need to ride the courses effectively to prevent her from even thinking about spitting you out.

Plus the ONLY time of year my mare will get nappy about gate issues is Now....Transiton is the hardest part of a mare's cycle.....and it hits my mare really hard.....ovary pain leading to some nappiness. As she has gotten older she has gotten a wee bit better. Regumate never did anything for her....this Aug we started her on Depo and it really helped.....
Mine never bucks....just will try and plant her feet and stop the forward....if I "insist" too hard with my leg it hurts and she gets worse.
Hope this helps

[Dune]

I would pay strong attention to the bolded part ;) A horse who is testing their human doesn't have to be actively disobedient, they can be passively testing you. A horse doesn't have to bolt - they can decide to ignore your leg ;) A passively dominant horse can test you in many subtle ways that are not just "training" issues. Then, before you even realize it, they have decided that you are not going to stop their little tests, so the "suddenly" give you a big test.

I'd make very sure that every thing you ask of her she does instantly and does to the best of her ability. She may be one who asks for an inch and takes 10 miles ;)


I think that's the best plan :)

OH JB, you're brilliant and saved me having to type. ;) Might I also ask, is this a WB mare?

[jmvwiv]

OH JB, you're brilliant and saved me having to type. ;) Might I also ask, is this a WB mare?

No she's not a WB mare. Unraced, unrace-trained, untatooed TB.



Originally Posted by JB
I would pay strong attention to the bolded part A horse who is testing their human doesn't have to be actively disobedient, they can be passively testing you. A horse doesn't have to bolt - they can decide to ignore your leg A passively dominant horse can test you in many subtle ways that are not just "training" issues. Then, before you even realize it, they have decided that you are not going to stop their little tests, so the "suddenly" give you a big test.

I'd make very sure that every thing you ask of her she does instantly and does to the best of her ability. She may be one who asks for an inch and takes 10 miles

Good point, you may have hit the nail on the head. At home she can get a little rank about moving forward so for 2years I've carried a long dressage type whip to tickle/tap with if she ignores my leg. Because of this rankness, if you will, when we work at home we work - does that make sense? I consisantly train that she has a job, she has to do her job, then get rewarded. This is not to say there arent "non-work" days undersaddle when i just let her on a loose rein plop around & chill. But when she is asked to work I require her to focus and work.

Again, thanks for the input.

[nuts4cowboybutts]

Some friends from the UK swear by a product called "Hormonise." It is an herbal, natural supplement.

In the US it is marketed as Evitex. It is for moody mares and can be used for geldings and stallions. They also say it is a good supplement for Cushings.

Has anyone ever used Evitex for moody mares?

[JB]

This is not to say there arent "non-work" days undersaddle when i just let her on a loose rein plop around & chill. But when she is asked to work I require her to focus and work.

This may still be a testing phase for her, may be for a while - where EVERY stride of every ride is not just a loose rein plop around chillin' ride. Now, she doesn't have to be WORKING, but she still should know that she moves off your leg NOW, there is no lazy walk or trot or canter, it alllllll has to be forward and energetic, it all has to be correctly responsive (both in terms of timeliness and correctness). It might be just a nice w/t/c hack in a field, but rules are still rules. My WB gelding is like this - I cannot ever let him just plop around, because then he thinks it's ok sometimes, and it's frustrating for him for me to "suddenly" say "ok, no plopping around." So, while some rides are light, not really working on anything but getting blood flowing, just w/t/c, he MUST respond crisply to my aids. Always.

That's what I mean in my earlier post. Everything for these horses, from leading to/from anywhere even just from stall to aisle, to tacking up, to warming up to cooling down, etc, needs to be very black and white, *always* consistent always. If you duck under her head because she didn't move it quite enough out of the way, she won that little battle you might not have even realized was being waged ;)

These horses take every little 1/4" they can and think "muahahaha, she didn't correct me on that, let me see if I can take another 1/4" and before you know it, they "suddenly" decide to take 5000' and you go "where'd that come from?!"

Hopefully that makes sense. The quietly dominant horses aren't the same as the ones who blatantly ignore you :) So, you can never give then any reason to think they pulled one over on you, no matter how small.


Make sure you also VERY carefully consider saddle fit. As a still-growing 5yo, who's BEEN growing ever since you first sat on her back, it doesn't take much for a fit to go from "Hmmm, that doesn't feel quite right" to a full blown "I DON'T like this, and I'm trying to tell you politely before I really do someting truly bitchy" ;)

Just make sure...

[sptraining]

I agree with JB. :) I also second that young horses don't know the difference between 'play day' and 'work day'. Not to say that you should be drilling every single day, but when you ask your green horse to move forward, they should respond immediately (on the ground and under saddle). Halt means stop now! Staying on top of the little disobediences here and there makes it a lot easier when you go to work. Your reward (scratch on the neck, verbal, etc) should be consistent as well. I also try to make mental notes of the horses that I ride and their behavior day to day so I can be aware of any changes. This way if a horse is acting out of character, you can investigate as to why or know that you may be in for a surprise that day.

I've heard raspberry leaves help with marishness. It does sound like she may have just had a teenage moment since she didn't try to pull it again. If the behavior starts reappearing, I'd definitely check to make sure that she is physically okay. Sometimes young horses get muscle sore from the training and epsom salts can help. Who knows, maybe you did something she didn't like but it all happens so fast it's hard to say what it might have been.

I feel for you - my young mare (4 yrs old now) would go along being just fine and then throw some nasty get-the-f-off bucks. We started working with a vet to correct her shoes/feet and used epsom salts for awhile to make sure she wasn't in pain. Now she's moving better than ever and has the best work ethic. She loves coming out to work and her bronc moments have disappeared.

Good luck and be safe!

[Horseymama]

I have a mare that sounds similar, only mine is four. She is a great little hunter prospect, except that she doesn't have the attention span yet for the hunters! Meaning, my mare needs a little more going on at this moment, things coming at her so she doesn't have time to think about things like balking at the gate. So no problem, right now we are doing the little baby jumpers which really helps because tight turns, in and outs, and other questions are asked of her that keep her thinking forward. If she never turns out to be a hunter, I don't care, I just want her thinking forward and about the next jump.

So maybe try her in the jumpers!

There is a newer mare hormone out, too that I have used called "Altrenogest" that works as well as Regimate except that it is an IM shot that you give every 7 days. Makes it a little easier than feeding Regimate. I've had great luck with it.

[jmvwiv]

Thanks for the ideas everyone!

I will ask the vet about Alternogest as well.
While I own her I will keep her pointed toward the Hunter ring, but I am certainly not opposed to putting her in some low level jumper classes to see if that "forward" thinking helps her actually settle a bit next time out. I would just ride it like a Handy course :lol:

As for the training - you bet I will stay very viligiant on keeping her obediant not only u/s but from the time I pull her out of her stall as well. While I am not the adult type to fall all over my horse or let her walk all over me (not even close), I will be more vigiliant of noticing what may be her "testing" behaviors.

So basically what I have been helped to realize is I probably had the tri-fecta of stars align to land me on my duff Saturday. I had a rank mare, that is green & a little fresh, testing her rider & throwing a temper tantrum when she didnt get her way.

[JB]

What a great attitude :yes:

[Dune]

No she's not a WB mare. Unraced, unrace-trained, untatooed TB.




Good point, you may have hit the nail on the head. At home she can get a little rank about moving forward so for 2years I've carried a long dressage type whip to tickle/tap with if she ignores my leg. Because of this rankness, if you will, when we work at home we work - does that make sense? I consisantly train that she has a job, she has to do her job, then get rewarded. This is not to say there arent "non-work" days undersaddle when i just let her on a loose rein plop around & chill. But when she is asked to work I require her to focus and work.

Again, thanks for the input.

TB mare, ok then what everyone says applies even more so. :yes: Your problem with the lack of forwardness and using the dressage whip just emphasizes what the issue has been all along, she just escalated it at the show. The "plop around" stuff under saddle, JB addresses nicely in her post and I agree 100%. NO plodding around with you in the tack, for that matter, even with you on the ground. Just one little pet peeve, "rank" is used to describe a very naughty, perhaps even dangerous horse with serious vices. Cranky might be better suited to describe a horse that doesn't want to go forward or nappy, balky, sucked back, etc. Your mare ain't all that bad, she's just testing you....keep up the good work! :winkgrin:

[Sing Mia Song]

I would give her the benefit of the doubt and rule out a medical reason before assuming it is behavioral. I would have her palpated to make sure she does not have an enlarged or cystic ovary, which could certainly cause her significant discomfort. Sometimes they warm up lazily because they are trying not to exert themselves to the point of making it hurt.

It may well be behavioral. I'm just sayin'. ;)

[mvp]

Before I gave her some chemical help, I'd take advantage of the amazing training opportunity she has presented to you.

She asked you a bigger, more general question that every self-preserving horse does sooner or later: "When I don't want to play any more, do I have to keep going or can I just flip the whole Monopoly board over and walk away in a huff?" You might as well answer that question now.

But that means just on that day, as you did. I don't think you did anything horrendous by making her act like a professional on Sunday. If she is very smart, she will have learned from this show and won't do it again. If she isn't so smart, or she doesn't care, the Sunday solution won't prove effective.

Can you put her in a similar situation at home, where you can answer her tantrum more directly?

[jmvwiv]

Before I gave her some chemical help, I'd take advantage of the amazing training opportunity she has presented to you.

She asked you a bigger, more general question that every self-preserving horse does sooner or later: "When I don't want to play any more, do I have to keep going or can I just flip the whole Monopoly board over and walk away in a huff?" You might as well answer that question now.

But that means just on that day, as you did. I don't think you did anything horrendous by making her act like a professional on Sunday. If she is very smart, she will have learned from this show and won't do it again. If she isn't so smart, or she doesn't care, the Sunday solution won't prove effective.

Can you put her in a similar situation at home, where you can answer her tantrum more directly?

Well I'm not sure how I could re-create a similar situation at home, the horse that showed up Saturday I've never seen before. She's never done anything close to this at home. And all but an occasional relaxed ride, she is worked at home and required to "act like a professional" there too. I try to mirror her job and expectaions at home so the routine can be pretty consistant at the shows. Rather her "testing" has been more, well, passive (for lack of a better way to say it). As an example - Thursday b/4 the show we were schooling her, she was quiet but lazy; short strided stuccato canter; so in response we jumped our courses out of a more forward pace than a normal lets say 3'-3'3" pace would require (but the jumps were little like 2'6-2'9"), picked up the canter and asked immediately for her to move forward, etc. she got the point held her pace and remained slow off the ground. I felt like it was a good training session.

[mvp]

I don't think I was clear. If you make her Man Up at home, she decides to flip over the game board in the ring at a show where you are 1) giving her a polite ride and 2) can't train her right then and there in the ring, then you need to re-create that situation.

In other words, get her a little physically or mentally tired (or fresh or whatever) and then *give her that unassuming ride* at home and fix it.

Yes, we need to teach them that we expect them to act like pros-- trying hard rain or shine. But part of that is giving them the opportunity to make the decide whether to be a pro or a whiner.

[jmvwiv]

I see, I can certainly do that at home. Good idea & thanks!

[Tini Sea Soldier]

A little late to the party... but since I used to be known as the "b*tch whisperer"... I'd thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I've had 2 "night"mares. Diva A was the type that would throw a leg at your head if you weren't watching or might grab you with her vampire jaw.
Diva B was more of a defiant... "anything you can do, i can do better... and don't push me, WOMAN" attitude.

Both were met with "you ain't seen nothing yet" attitude from me. I basically matched the b*tch with the B*TCH. This wasn't an overly aggressive or violent attitude... it was more of a state of mind.

Diva A was groomed with a broom in hand. She could do whatever she wanted... but she was met with a broom. That wasn't exactly the reaction she wanted. Needless to say... leaning into a few stiff bristles and catching a broom handle to the mouth instead of an arm... left her bored and actually eventually stopped it. I never used it to beat her... just used it as protection... apparently porcupines aren't fun playmates!

Diva B was a bit tougher of a case, as she was a pony and convincing a pony that you're smarter is not the easiest challenge. That was more of a compromise. I recognized that she knew her job and that she was just quick about it. So I decided that she just was bored and wanted it over with... hence, we introduced the lunge line as her opportunity to vent. This actually was her favorite part of the day. I've never seen a mare more happy. She would lunge herself. NOW, the jedi-mind trick was that when she stopped (which, I kid you not... was 30 mins on the DOT). you needed to push her for a few more mins... why? bc it was YOUR lunging session, not hers. If you just let her go back... you'd get the same rounds... if you pushed for YOUR way... she actually settled. I don't know why... but it worked.

I've often felt that with geldings... it's about finesse. Like with dating men, there's a fine line where you have to be tough, but gentle with them.
With the mares... it's about who is in charge and how much both parties respects the compromise. My mare could find a distance from anywhere and I respected her for that...but she had to do it at my pace... and as long as we both didn't get in each other's way... it was always a beautiful course. If either of us pushed the envelope, FORGET ABOUT IT.

[Go Fish]

I love me a bitchy mare! :D

[JWB]

Side note - You can pay the extra money for the name brand Mare Magic if you really want to OR you can find an online herb shop or a local herb store and just buy bags of raspberry leaves. It's the exact same thing for less $$$